Phil discusses Sunderland's 1-0 win over Derby County and takes questions from Echo readers
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00:00Good morning everyone and welcome to the latest edition of On The Whistle where we're going
00:13to chat through Derby County 0, Sunderland 1, a really really important three points
00:17in Sunderland's push for automatic promotion and a game with plenty of drama in it so plenty
00:23to talk about. I won't talk about the game too much itself because hopefully some of
00:27you will have seen I did my instant reaction at full time from the press box in Derby which
00:32you can watch on the channel but I guess having had a little bit of time, a few hours to reflect
00:37on the game, I think by and large my assessment of it was I think Sunderland pretty much did
00:41deserve to win. Very much a game of two halves I think in the sense that in the first half
00:46I thought Sunderland without being their free-flowing best, I thought the game plan was pretty sound
00:51and I thought they had control of the game. We saw in the second half exactly what kind
00:56of game Derby wanted to play, how they wanted the game to look, they wanted to get crosses
01:00in the box, they wanted to pen Sunderland back, they wanted to put corners in one after
01:03the other and really build pressure that way. I thought that while Sunderland didn't play
01:08their best football in the first half, I thought what they were effective at doing was basically
01:11stopping Derby doing that, kept them a long way from goal. They held onto the ball pretty
01:17well for the most part. They kind of forced Derby into just playing long balls from deep
01:21which I think is something that they were very comfortable with. I think you've got
01:24to give Derby some credit first and foremost in the second half. They've got a lot of injury
01:29issues, they didn't feel a natural centre-back last night because of their injury problems.
01:34They were really aggressive in the second half. Paul Warnes switched to a back four
01:38which was a little bit risky because of the plays he was missing but what it allowed him
01:42to do was it was allowed to get him to his two wingers sort of high up the pitch. I thought
01:46their new signing Salvarsson who they signed from Viking FK last week, big target man,
01:51I thought he was a handful and I think that's going to make some good saves.
01:54So I think you have to give Derby a bit of credit but even having said that, I can think
01:58of three saves that Anthony Patterson made, two really good saves. Of course, Sunderland
02:03did have their chances on the break as well. For all, I think Derby were very good in the
02:08second half and Dejean Brown missed a big chance from corner when he came on. Sunderland
02:12did create chances on the break as well and of course they had that second goal bizarrely
02:16ruled out which was, in my view, a perfectly good goal. Definitely some elements of concern
02:21and I think a little bit about the second half, I thought Sunderland lacked a little
02:24bit of composure on the ball. At times, you were crying out for them to put their foot
02:28on it and just slow it down and instead they were quite panicked in their clearances which
02:32just invited more pressure. But I think by and large, you have to give Sunderland some
02:35credit. A really important win. Derby have 20 points at home this season. They're a very
02:41different side at home as they are away from home. It's not an easy win at Pride Park even
02:46if Derby are just above the relegation zone. So, lots of positives to take as well but
02:50definitely a few reflections from the second half as well. I think off the back of it,
02:55we all said off the Burnley game that for all the circumstances of that game, made it
03:00incredibly disappointing to only get a point. It would be a good point if Sunderland backed
03:05it up and won here which they did. Fingers crossed Sunderland can build on that because
03:08if they go and win on Saturday at home, touch wood, that would be seven points from nine
03:13in a really, really positive week in the push for the top two. And just before I go into
03:17your questions, I put this on my Blue Sky account last night, but I think one thing
03:21worth reflecting on is that quite rightly we're talking about the top two now. That's
03:25where Sunderland are and that's what we should be judging them on because they've got every
03:28chance now of going and winning an automatic promotion. But if you'd said to us at the
03:31start of the season that at this stage in January, Sunderland would be 13 points clear
03:36of seventh position, I think that's an absolutely remarkable record really given where they
03:41come from and I think a lot of credit is due to the Breece and the players for that.
03:47So let me just have a sip of my coffee and then we'll get into all of your questions.
03:53The first one that I think is probably just worth taking head on and getting out of the
03:57way is a few of you have asked again about the goal and what it was disallowed for. The
04:02honest answer is I have no idea. I mean, I have some theories, but a really bizarre passage
04:06of play. Really hard to understand what happened, but let's take it back to the start. So obviously
04:12Joel plays a wonderful ball over the top, which Isidore and Enzo Lefebvre both attack.
04:18I think Isidore gets the first touch. Lefebvre then lays Isidore up, who crashes it in. Sunderland
04:23celebrate. Referee gives the goal. Lions are on the far side, who would be making an offside
04:28decision and doesn't flag. And then about a minute later, the referee comes over to
04:33talk to his other assistant referee and disallows the goal. Now, I spoke to players and I spoke
04:41to both managers after the game and nobody has a clue what happened. You know, Paul Warnes
04:46said the derby boss said he thought maybe it was a foul on one of his players, but he
04:49didn't know. Labreeze felt that the offence must have been given for something that happened
04:53right at the end, sort of near the derby box because of the way it played out. But he had
04:58absolutely no clarity on whatsoever. I think it was given because the linesman incorrectly
05:04judged Isidore to be offside. There's basically three things that they could have disallowed
05:09the goal for. One is Isidore or Lefebvre being offside. The second is that the ball did strike
05:13Lefebvre's arm in the penalty box. It was very, very close range and his arm was in
05:18a natural position. So I don't think it should have been a handball, but that is a possibility.
05:22And the other one is Warnes said it was a foul on a derby player, potentially for a
05:25nudge by Lefebvre. I mean, that would have been a very, very soft decision. I don't think
05:29it can be the handball or the foul because surely in that scenario, it's the referee
05:34who makes the decision because he is closest to it. He has the best view of both those
05:37incidents by a mile. And he clearly didn't think there was a foul in either circumstances
05:41because he didn't give it. So the only thing that really it can be is for offside. And
05:48I think the fact that the game restarted quite high up the pitch suggests that it definitely
05:52was given for an offside because obviously if it had been for the handball or the foul
05:57on the derby player, the free kick would have been retaken really close to the derby's goal.
06:01So I think it was given for an offside incorrectly. The thing that remains baffling to me now
06:05is that it appeared to be the assistant referee on the wrong side who gave the offside decision
06:11because as I say, the assistant referee who was in line with Isidore and Lefebvre didn't
06:16flag when the goal was scored. As I say, there was about a minute passed. It was only when
06:21the referee came over to near the dugouts where the fourth official and the other assistant
06:25referee are that he gave the decision. And I could see the assistant referee speaking
06:29in his earpiece to the referee. So he appeared to be the one who said something and that
06:32caused it to be ruled out. So a really bizarre piece of officiating to be honest. And I guess
06:37we should just be grateful that it didn't cost Sunderland in the end. But I can't give
06:43you an honest answer on exactly why it was disallowed other than given the way it played
06:47out. The only reason I can think of it is that it was for offside. So we've got a question
06:51here. Well, two questions for Rob and Pato1973. Rob says, why does RLB leave changes until
06:58so late in the games? Derby's five subs have clearly given them a massive boost and we
07:03were lucky we hadn't conceded by the time we made a change. Pato1973 says, why do we
07:07always seem late to make subs?
07:10Yeah, as I said before, I think yeah, full credit to Paul Warne. He definitely made some
07:15subs that changed the momentum of the game. He obviously made a triple sub really early
07:19in the half, which I thought altered the flow of the game. When they went to a back four,
07:22they really penned Sunderland in. And then he obviously made another two aggressive subs
07:26not long after. It did come back to bite Derby mind, of course, because when Dejean Brown
07:30went down with an injury in the final 10 minutes, Sunderland had used all their substitutions,
07:34Derby, sorry, had used all the substitutions. They actually finished with 10 men. So it
07:37kind of did work against them in the end. I'll take your point on both occasions that
07:42Sunderland could well have been behind level by the time that Labriez actually made his
07:47changes. And for sure, I think it's an argument he could have changed it earlier. The one
07:51thing I would say to bounce that out is I do actually think the subs he did make were
07:54good ones. I thought Roberts had a really good impact. I thought he held the ball well.
07:59He carried it away from trouble. And on the day, I think he could have got a goal or assist.
08:04I thought he did well. Similarly, I thought Ballard was a good sub. He just gave Sunderland
08:09a bit of aerial presence as needed. And actually, Luko, now moving out to left back, he seemed
08:13to have a little bit more energy, obviously. Dennis Ayrton has spent 75 minutes running
08:17up and down that flank. And I think 09 just brought a bit of extra energy and carried
08:22the ball forward well. And although it's definitely one I would have made earlier, I thought the
08:26Sam Edford rig sub was a good call. One of the big positives for me last night, very
08:31low key, because I know he was only on the pitch for about 10, 11 minutes, but I thought
08:34Salih Sabdo, Sam Edford had a really good impact. Nothing flashed, but exactly what
08:37Sunderland wanted at the time. He showed some really good energy. He got up the pitch.
08:41He put some pressure on Derby Centre Arse, which made it really difficult for them to
08:44work it into the wide areas and cross from deep, which is obviously what they were doing
08:47so well for the second half. So I thought he really nullified some of their threat.
08:51His positioning was good. He seemed to be in where he needed to be to get through his
08:57defensive work. And I thought while the game didn't call for him to do anything flash on
09:00the ball, he just made simple decisions. So I have a couple of kind of slightly different
09:04opinions on that. I do agree with you that maybe they could have been made earlier in
09:07the game to try and change the momentum. But having said that, I do think that the subs
09:11he made were actually good ones. And in the end, they did help Sunderland see out the
09:16game. They obviously had a stroke look at Brown going off from an injury because Derby
09:20finishing the game with 10 definitely took away a lot of their momentum. Craig says,
09:27any idea how much longer Mundell will be out for? We seem to have very few options now
09:31on either flank. Yeah, I think Mundell and Watson are probably two to three weeks away.
09:35So last week, Lebris said, yeah, I think it was towards the back end of last week,
09:40said he'd probably three to four weeks for both of those players. I think in Watson,
09:45we always knew he was going to be sort of mid-February that he'd be back. Mundell has
09:49definitely been a little bit longer than hoped, but I think that's just a reflection of the fact
09:52that you have to be really careful with hamstrings, especially with such an explosive player like
09:57Mundell, so quick and such a good dribbler. I think there is a real risk of recurrence.
10:03So they've been a little bit cautious with him. But I don't think it should be too long.
10:08In terms of the other injuries, I think probably just worth mentioning that Sunderland under-21s
10:12player Benfica beat at the stadium like tonight. Jan Poveda is going to play in that game,
10:17Craig. So I know you kind of don't want to be putting too much hope in Poveda because
10:22he obviously had a really difficult season and we don't know how sort of quickly he's
10:25going to be able to get up to match sharpness. But he is playing tonight. He is fit again.
10:29So that's a positive. Jenson Seal is also going to play 45 minutes in that game,
10:34which is obviously a really nice development for him. And I think Alan Brown will be back in full
10:38training next week. So although at the moment I take your point, there is definitely in the
10:42wide areas a little bit of a lack of depth. There is a little bit of blue skies on the horizon. So
10:47fingers crossed all those players will get back quickly. And my colleague James will have a
10:54report and ratings and all you need to know from the game tonight, the under-21s game tonight,
10:58if you can't make it. So do go and check that out. What other questions have we got? So yeah,
11:03I think we had a couple of questions about this. Job Sunderland said it's time to rotate the
11:08midfield three in a three game week. And I am pretty sure I had a similar question in the
11:14YouTube comments from last night's reaction video. There we go. Andrew says Chris Rigg not quite had
11:19it in the last few games. Has he played too many games? Surely he sits out a few now.
11:24Listen, I think that I have two kind of feelings about this. I think Rigg is still doing really
11:30well. Even last night, he had a big impact in the first goal. Obviously, it was quite an odd one
11:35because it was initially his error that led Derby to break. But Rigg did really well, won the ball
11:40back. And because Derby had sensed an opportunity, they actually overcommitted, which allowed
11:44Sunderland to break. I do think it was a bit of a tricky game for Rigg last night. He's not a right
11:48winger. You know, we've seen him play that role in the past, but it's not ideal. The reason why
11:53he was there was because Sunderland have been really clear this season that they don't want to
11:56play Roberts three times a week because obviously his season last year. And in the past, he's had
12:00hamstring issues and Sunderland are desperate to avoid that because he's such an important player.
12:03So it wasn't ideal for Rigg to play on the right. You know, he wants to be in the middle and drift
12:07over to the right to play those little one-twos with Roberts and Hulme. So I'm not overly concerned
12:11about the fact that I don't think it necessarily was his best performance last night. I absolutely
12:16agree that he's going to have to sit some games out. It's no reflection on Chris Rigg. It's his
12:20first professional season. We've seen it with so many players over the years. We've seen it with
12:25Dan Nail. We've seen it with Job to an extent. We've seen it with Callum Doyle. You know, there
12:29is going to be a period in the season when they have a lull. And what I would say is that there's
12:31no need for any acrimony about that. And that's exactly why Enzo Lefebvre was signed with Alan
12:37Brown coming on the horizon as well. Lebris has made clear, we had a question about subs earlier,
12:41that what he wants to do is to be able to change his midfield an hour into the game to bring some
12:45real intensity and energy. I think Chris Rigg's done unbelievably well, as have Job and Dan Nail
12:51in recent weeks and in recent months, sorry, to ensure that Sunderland's standards has never
12:55really dipped really, even though they've had so few options and they've had to play so many minutes.
12:59So I definitely think there'll be games where Rigg comes off the bench as an impact substitute. I
13:03don't have any doubt about that at all. And I see it as a real positive. So I agree with you that
13:07it's a position where we'll see more rotation, both at the start of games and within games than
13:11we have done in the first half of the season. And I see it as a positive and I don't see it from a
13:16negative from Rigg's perspective. I think it was always going to be a big ask for him to start 46
13:20games. He's doing brilliantly and he'll keep having a big impact. Shiny Tom says, I thought
13:27Miander played well tonight and was surprised when he was subbed. He's more aware than Wilson
13:31who should have played in Lefebvre earlier. To be fair, Wilson had carried the ball from his own box
13:36to the opposition goal. So maybe he was a little bit tired in the mind and in the legs. I think
13:40that's the one thing I would say for mitigation for that one, even though he should have squared
13:43it for Lefebvre. Yeah, I agree. I thought Miander was excellent. I think he's turned into a really
13:48good player. The one thing I would say, Tom, is that I do think a big part of the reason why he's
13:51doing so well is because I think he really enjoys having Isidoro up there with him. Miander, I think,
13:56benefits from being slightly deeper of the two. Isidoro does so much work battling with the centre
14:02halfs, occupying them, creating space for Miander. I do think he looks more of a threat than when he
14:06was playing up front on his own at the start of the season, which he did brilliantly well,
14:09given his lack of experience. But I do think he is enjoying having Isidoro doing a lot of
14:14the work that allows him to have the space to drive into and dribble into. But I do agree with
14:19you. I thought he played really, really well. I thought he was someone's biggest threat in the
14:21first half, held the ball up well, gets away from defenders really well, scores goals, creates
14:27chances. There's not a lot to like about Miander. I think he's a huge prospect. And again, I think a
14:34lot of credit for Lebris, for the trust he's shown him from the start of this season. It's really,
14:37really paying off for something. But again, I think the thing, but I've always said it,
14:41I really like Isidoro because no matter whether he gets a goal, whether he doesn't get a goal,
14:45whether he has chances, doesn't have chances, he runs his socks off for the team. And I do think
14:49that Miander is one of the players who benefits from that. So again, a lot of respect for Isidoro's
14:54performance, even if he didn't quite get that headline grabbing goal. And ultimately, he did
14:58deserve one, didn't he? Because that goal should never have been ruled out. Michael says, what was
15:03behind the change of shape at the start of the second half? Seems like Enzo went more central
15:06before going back to how it started. Yeah, I think that it was basically just to try and get
15:14another man in midfield. I think that Lebris just felt that Derby were too dominant and that it was
15:20a little bit too risky only having the two midfielders. I think that obviously it made
15:25more sense for Lefer to go in there and Miander to go out the left. I've said it before, I don't
15:30think Miander off the left really works. I can understand why in the game it was the best option
15:34because he didn't want to make a substitution. It's not something I want to say too much more of,
15:37to be honest, I think. I don't mind Miander off the right because I think cutting inside,
15:41I think he's quite happy doing that and driving in field. I'm not sure it works too much off the
15:44left and I'm not sure that particular tweak really worked because although it did give someone an
15:48extra body in midfield, I'm not sure, as I said, that the chemistry is quite right with some of
15:54those players in those positions. But as Michael says here, as we're just trying to find some ways
15:58to get all these central midfield options in for when Mundell, Watson get back, we'll definitely
16:02see Lefer as a 10 at some point. No doubt about that whatsoever when Mundell and Watson are back.
16:08LeBreeze feels in the Championship, that's his best position. Although he's not a weak player
16:12and he likes getting stuck in, second balls and aerial duels are not going to be Lefer's game in
16:17the Championship, everyone knows that. That's what you want Job doing, that's what you want Dan
16:20Neal doing, that's what you want Salih Abdul-Samad doing. So I definitely think Michael is a future
16:25in which Mundell or Watson plays off the left and Lefer plays as a 10 and whether that's Rigg or
16:29Job or whoever has a rest and comes on after an hour, I don't know. So to be honest, Michael,
16:33it was just to try and get a bit of control back and to give someone an extra option in midfield,
16:37because I think LeBreeze felt they were struggling to retain possession. And as I mentioned before,
16:41someone not having the ball meant Derby could just keep getting up the pitch and loading the box of
16:45those crosses. So I think in this scenario, it was just about trying to get someone's possession up
16:50to get them up the pitch to slow the game down. But I think going forward, I definitely think
16:54Lefer as a 10 is definitely a live option, Michael. So hopefully that answers your question
17:00a little bit. Let's see if we've got one or two more questions that I can get through from the
17:04YouTube comments. Thanks again for leaving those under the reaction video. We'll keep doing them
17:08because it seems to be working well. Andrew says, any news of fullbacks coming in? And with
17:12circumcision, we're not able to last the 90s, we need some cover. Yeah, I think that it's one to
17:18watch. LeBreeze's view has been very much that he has six defenders now, if you include Yelder,
17:22who he trusts a lot. The big thing is obviously they see 09 being able to play very well in both
17:27the fullback positions, which I agree with, he can. So as long as Ballard and Mepham stay fit,
17:31there's no problem. I think Mepham's sort of hamstring issue on Friday, which thank God
17:36turned out not to be serious, and he played last night and played very well as well,
17:40kind of showed how much of a risk some undertaken. Because if one of those,
17:43Mepham or Ballard, gets injured and 09 has to play as a centre half or 09 gets injured,
17:48obviously some of them really, really short of cover, especially at right back.
17:52So it is something I'm a little bit concerned about. At the moment, it doesn't seem like
17:55some of them are going to be actively pursuing it. It looks like they're focusing on other targets,
17:59and it's something they'll only do if they get injuries. But I definitely agree with you. I
18:03would like to think they're at least doing some contingency planning, because they're one injury
18:07away from definitely needing some more cover. So let's see how that one shakes out. And let's
18:16have a look. Have we got one or two more? John says, thanks for the report, Phil. I'm in Cork
18:20City and supported Sunder for years. I was delighted with the win. We've battled hard.
18:23I would like to know who we will be chasing this transfer window as our target seems to have gone
18:27elsewhere. Thanks for watching, John. Yeah, I think, as he mentioned, Brereton Diaz, I think
18:31always preferred to move to Sheffield United for personal reasons. Obviously had a good loan there
18:35last year. He's confirmed that. I expect Tom Canning to go there as well. It looks like Sheffield
18:39United's willingness to pay a huge fee up front as one, because Sunder preferred a loan to buy
18:45scenario. I do think there's something in there. Mattia Friggen reports, John, I think he's
18:49definitely someone like. I know they've looked at him in previous windows. He's having a really
18:54good campaign. From what I can gather, he's got a bit of a presence about him. He's quite physical.
18:58So I think he would add something a little bit different to what Sunder already have.
19:01And I think there's also a bit of versatility. I think at different times in his career,
19:04he's played in different positions, sort of off the flank as well. So I think that's potentially
19:09one that might fit for Sunder. It's always a little bit of a gamble, of course, bringing the
19:13player in who's not used to the league mid-season. But I definitely think Friggen is one that
19:17Sunder are looking at, albeit, you know, Sunder being very, very clear. So the sources I have
19:22and have spoken to that they're still looking at a few options and suggestions from Belgium that
19:26a deal is very, very close isn't quite right. So there's clearly a lot of work to do.
19:30But I definitely think he's a target we should be keeping an eye on because I think he seems to fit
19:34the bill for a lot of what Sunder want. And yeah, I think that is about it. Thanks so much for
19:42sending all your questions in. And hope you enjoyed it. And we'll be back after the Plymouth
19:47game. Yeah, on Saturday with another edition, an instant reaction video and also an edition of
19:51On The Whistle. As I mentioned, some under-21s in action at the stadium tonight, a few first team
19:57players involved. If you can't be there, James Copley will have all the reaction and everything
20:02you know from the game on the ECHO website. So keep an eye out for that. Thanks for watching.