Sunderland stun Swansea City with superb comeback win
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:25My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley, and you join us on a Tuesday morning where
00:30we have the relative novelty, James, of discussing the Sunland win.
00:33We haven't had a lot in the last couple of weeks, but it was a really stunning comeback
00:38against Swansea City at the weekend for the Blackcats, 2-0 down in Wales, a goal just
00:46before half-time.
00:47Regis Lebris' side back into the contest, and then two goals in very quick order in
00:54the second half to ultimately hand Sunland all three points.
00:57A really bizarre game in a lot of respects, wasn't it, James, but ultimately a really
01:02good three-point win for Sunland.
01:05Tremendous character shown, I think it was really satisfying to see that young group
01:08do that.
01:09You know, you sort of question whether a squad and a team that young can produce something
01:15like that.
01:16I mean, to be 2-0 down against Swansea, who are a decent footballing side, a long way
01:20from home as well, there's been illness going around the squad.
01:24I was hugely impressed by the reaction to, let's face it, playing really, really poorly.
01:29I would argue for 60, 70 minutes, I think you could argue that Sunland were perhaps
01:34coming back into it a little bit when Dan Neil scored that absolute screamer, but the
01:39feeling I was getting up until he scored that was that Sunland might have been coming back
01:43into it, but I didn't think they were threatening.
01:45So to go and do that, I think is hugely impressive.
01:48It's a massive sort of tick in the box, I think, and Sunland's last three games they've
01:52got seven points all from losing positions as well, so they deserve a huge amount of
01:56credit for that.
01:57I feel like they've sort of perhaps played themselves into a little bit of form now,
02:02which has been really good.
02:03Obviously after the five draws, then the Sheffield United loss as well, there was a fair few
02:07missed opportunities there for Sunland.
02:10So I think, yeah, hugely, hugely impressed, hugely pleased.
02:15If you are criticising, you could maybe go that Sunland were so, so poor for that first
02:20sort of 20 minutes.
02:21They did improve a little bit, but to achieve something in a league, to achieve something
02:26in the Championship, you are going to have games in which you play poorly and getting
02:30a result from those games is massively, massively impressive.
02:34So yeah, it was a real vintage sort of Sunland away day, I think.
02:39I think that'll be talked about for a long time.
02:42And I think Sunland hadn't done that in the league since 1998 away at West Brom.
02:51They'd done it away in the Worthington Cup under Howard Wilkinson against Arsenal, and
02:57they'd done it at home at MK Don's in the League Cup.
03:00So these things don't really happen very often, like three or four times in, you know, 25
03:07years or whatever.
03:08So it's one to be saved for sure.
03:22You still there, Jess?
03:24Just a moment.
03:25I think we might be having some internet issues, I'm afraid.
03:28Can you hear me?
03:29Yeah, I can hear you now.
03:30Yeah.
03:31OK, no worries.
03:32No worries.
03:33Yeah, like you say, obviously a really slow start from Sunderland and something that is
03:39sort of creeping into the game a little bit, isn't it?
03:41That's obviously, like you say, seven points taken from nine available now from losing
03:47positions. I mean, obviously we'll get on to the good stuff against Swansea, but is the
03:53fact that they are starting these games slowly, that they may be taking a little while to
03:56sort of acclimatise to contests, is that a matter that Regis LaBrie should be should be
04:00concerned with, do you think, or do you think it's a positive that they're able to show
04:04this character and ultimately sort of ride these difficult moments in matches out and
04:09still come away with the points?
04:11I think that's a little bit of both.
04:12I do think you have to mention it again that Sunderland are such a young side.
04:16I know there's a little bit of experience in there, like Dan Ballard's an experienced
04:19player now, Mepham's experience, Lugo Nine, even though he started on the bench,
04:22experienced, Patrick Roberts, like Serk and Hulme, they've got a fair amount of senior
04:28football under their belt. But that midfield, that average age, I think is 19 years, six
04:32months, with Dan Neal just turning 23, and I think that gets forgotten, you know, forgotten
04:38about really just because of how good these players are.
04:41So whilst I do think it's a little bit of a cause for concern and something that, you
04:46know, Sunderland will have to address and ultimately improve, the inconsistencies in
04:49games, obviously thinking back to the Coventry City game where they sort of did what they
04:54did against Swansea, but in reverse, they played really well, and then it didn't go so
04:58well in the second half. So I think that's something that they will have to improve, but I
05:02can sort of understand and accept it for the moment, just given the average age of that
05:08squad. But yeah, I think La Brice will certainly be looking to iron that out.
05:14And it'll be interesting, actually, to see what happens in January, whether Sam Edd can
05:17come back in and the rest in rotation.
05:20I do think a lot of these players are a little tired as well.
05:23Jason's just dipped out of the Raw podcast.
05:26But yeah, I think, I don't think necessarily that it's a huge problem yet, but it's all
05:32determined on results.
05:34I'm not sure where Jason's gone.
05:36If anybody's watching on YouTube or Facebook, drop me a message in the comments.
05:44Let me know if Jason's actually on screen or who's dropping out, because I'm not quite
05:48sure at the moment. I'm just going to keep rambling on.
05:51Presumably, I'm going out live.
05:54This will be a little bit of a test, won't it?
05:57Jason in there?
06:00Nope.
06:02Nothing from Jason.
06:04Well, this is going well, isn't it?
06:06OK, well, we'll move swiftly on.
06:12So yeah, I mean, this one's, oh, he's gone.
06:15Let's have a look.
06:16What is going on here?
06:18This is good, isn't it?
06:19Really professional, the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunlineco.
06:24And my colleague Jason Jones has completely disappeared on me.
06:29Right, I'm going to attempt to host this podcast by myself and talk to myself, which should be fun.
06:38Drop any questions you've got in the comments section, if you do have any, and I'll go from there.
06:44I thought, you know, the pleasing nature of the Swansea game actually was,
06:50obviously, the nature of the come from behind win, but the mettle and resolve that Sunderland showed,
06:54I thought was really, really impressive.
06:56And I thought, perhaps we'll look back on this game as a little bit of a coming of age performance for Dan Neal in terms of his captaincy.
07:03Actually, I thought that he sort of really needed that.
07:07He really needed to dig Sunderland out of a hole in a game.
07:10And I found his comments to Phil after the game really interesting, where he sort of noted, really,
07:16that at the start of the season, the captaincy had weighed a little heavily on him, and that it weighed a little heavily on him,
07:25and that his performances had dipped.
07:27And I think we forget with Dan Neal quite often that he's playing in an unfamiliar position in the number six role.
07:33And he actually does it quite well.
07:34He's still learning. He's still very new to it.
07:36There's not a lot of number sixes who are so young in the championship.
07:40So I think in terms of Dan Neal, I mean, to play ill as well, there was reports that he couldn't get out of bed on the morning of the game.
07:47He pulled himself around.
07:48And I think that's indicative of the spirit at Sunderland at the moment, is that they've had a lot of illness coming into these games.
07:55They've had a lot of issues, obviously, with Lugo 9 and Patrick Roberts, obviously, as well.
08:01So there's been illness going around Sunderland's camp, which has been a shame.
08:06I've just got a message from Jason saying that he's so sorry my laptop was just frozen up completely.
08:12He's trying to fix it. Well, that's great for me.
08:15So, yeah, I was impressed with Dan Neal.
08:17And I mean, what a strike that is. Absolutely fantastic.
08:19And it was nice as well to see him get his flowers from the way ahead.
08:24You won't see too many better strikes than that from Dan Neal and his career.
08:30I thought it was great.
08:32And what a story as well Dan Neal is at Sunderland.
08:35I mean, to come through at the Academy of Light, at a time when everybody was actually leaving the club as well,
08:40under Stuart Donald and Charlie Methven and Juan Satori, Dan Neal opted to stay.
08:44He broke through. He played his first appearance in the Papa John's Trophy, I think.
08:49You know, then he helps the club get out of League One, although he didn't play in the playoff final under Alex Neal.
08:53He then helped stabilise the club in the Championship.
08:56And he wants to push now for the Premier League with his Boyhood Club X season ticket holder as well,
09:01which I think is fantastic to have in the side.
09:06And for him to be captain in Sunderland, it's a story that I really like.
09:09I know he can come under some criticism, in for some criticism at times.
09:13And I think that can be justified in terms of his performances.
09:17Perhaps he does need to do a little more.
09:19But I would rather have Dan Neal in my team than not.
09:23I think we have Jason Jones back now.
09:25Let me see if I can add him in.
09:30Jason, are you with us?
09:31I am. Slight relocation, James.
09:34Absolute all-time captain.
09:35Thank God for that.
09:36I apologise. I apologise profusely.
09:40I mean, you'll have to bring me up to speed, I'm afraid, because I've been gone for about five minutes.
09:45Yeah, so I just did a little ramble on Dan Neal while I was waiting for you.
09:48But feel free to pick it up.
09:52Yeah, well, I mean, obviously you've been speaking about Dan Neal,
09:55but I think he is somebody who deserves an immense amount of credit, isn't he?
09:59You know, obviously the goal and certainly the point in the match at which it came
10:04was so crucial to Sunderland and that comeback at the weekend.
10:09But, you know, there's so much spoken about Neal and the role that he fulfils in this team.
10:16I think we can both sort of agree that it's not necessarily the role
10:20that he would ideally like to be playing in.
10:22I think obviously, you know, he's a player who, as he showcased at the weekend,
10:26has that attacking instinct to him, someone who has the creativity to him.
10:31And he's very much sort of happened to sort of sit in and be that deep-lying midfielder that,
10:37you know, by the way, I think for the most part he does that very, very well.
10:41But I also think that there are sides to his game that maybe aren't being,
10:45you know, illustrated as well as they perhaps might be.
10:48If he were allowed to roam in the same way that Joe Bellingham is, for instance,
10:52you know what I mean?
10:52But I do also think that, you know, it's interesting this balance between
10:58Neal, the player, and Neal, the captain.
11:01And forgive me if you've already spoken about this while I've dropped off
11:04because of my internet issues.
11:05But, you know, it does feel as if it's maybe taken him just a little bit of time
11:09to sort of adjust to, not necessarily the pressure of being the captain,
11:14but the sort of responsibilities that come with that, the sort of the role of being
11:19not only the on-field leader in terms of vocal presence, but also sometimes
11:23the on-field conduit, if you like, for what the Brits is trying to get across
11:27to the rest of his players.
11:29And I think that as the season goes on, I think we're seeing Neal become more
11:34and more comfortable with that, more and more accustomed with that.
11:36And hopefully, as the season goes on, he can grow even further into a role
11:39that I do think he has got a pretty good handle on, even if it's not necessarily
11:43the one that he or Sunderland would perhaps ideally like him to be playing in.
11:49There was always going to be a bedding in process.
11:50I think that bedding in process has definitely been helped by Luke O'Neill,
11:54who, by all accounts, has been brilliant off the field.
11:56Obviously, he's still the club captain.
11:58So he's helped with a lot of Dan Neal's roles and responsibilities.
12:02I honestly think it's underestimated and shouldn't be understated
12:05the amount of pressure that man will feel on his shoulders,
12:08captaining his boyhood club.
12:10He will probably hear, read, be sent, listen to everything that's said about him.
12:15I think it's very, very hard to switch off from that.
12:18You know, all of his family are Sunderland fans.
12:19We live in a Sunderland bubble here, up here, don't we, in terms of the North East
12:23and a football bubble in terms of the North East.
12:26So, yeah, there's going to be pressure externally
12:29and there's going to be internal pressure for himself.
12:31He'll be desperate to do a good job.
12:34You know, I think the position question, which I touched on a little earlier
12:37and which you've rightly raised again,
12:39and I've said on this podcast loads of times, to me, what Dan Neal did against Swansea,
12:43that is the player Dan Neal is.
12:45He is the player that broke through at the Stadium of Light
12:48and scored that goal in League One against Akron and Stanley.
12:51He's got a strike. He's got a finish.
12:52I think he could be a brilliant box-to-box midfielder.
12:56I think he's been asked to play that number six because he's technically good enough.
13:01He's got the mentality and he's got the experience, which is a huge, huge credit to him.
13:06One, he's been asked to do that and two, that he's actually willing to do it for the team as well.
13:11I think the semi-transfer is really interesting, isn't it?
13:14Because they had that worked out a little bit earlier.
13:16Obviously, it hasn't worked out at all yet.
13:17Hopefully it does.
13:19That would have perhaps freed Neal to play a little bit further up,
13:22at times, a little bit of resting rotation with Joe Bellingham and Chris Rigg.
13:26I believe Dan Neal can fulfil that number eight role 100 per cent.
13:30And that's not to take away from his achievements at six.
13:33Was he under par for a couple of games?
13:35Perhaps, yes.
13:37But I would rather have Dan Neal in my team than not have him in my team.
13:41I think his tactical awareness is something that goes very, very, very largely under the radar.
13:47I think when he drops in to Sunderland's back four when Luke O'Neill steps out,
13:50or Dan Ballard steps out, whoever steps out, I think is brilliant.
13:54He keeps Sunderland ticking over. He recycles the ball.
13:56And I think he provides a platform, really, for Job and Chris Rigg to go on
14:01and do the business for Sunderland.
14:03And Job and Chris Rigg have been talked about as two of the best young midfielders in the league,
14:06and they are.
14:07But I think a large part of that is the tactical discipline Dan Neal
14:10and sacrifice Dan Neal brings to that midfield.
14:13Yes, I would absolutely have to echo all of that.
14:16I think it's fair to say.
14:17And I also think it's worth just reiterating that, you know,
14:20this Sunderland midfield is performing at the level that it's performing at most weeks.
14:25You know, most weeks it's performing at that level without the sort of safety net,
14:29if you like, of a reliable rotation, or at least a viable rotation option at the moment,
14:36because it's not just the Salmon thing, which obviously hasn't worked out just yet for Sunderland.
14:40But you would like to think that when he comes into the team, he will free up Dan Neal.
14:46That'll have a domino effect, and obviously in terms of rotation and stuff like that.
14:49But you like to think he'll bring a different dimension to Sunderland.
14:51But it's also the Alan Brown injury as well.
14:53He obviously sustained against Coventry City.
14:55And, you know, Brown, I thought over the first part of the season,
14:59obviously had a couple of false starts, if you like, because he has had injuries.
15:04And that's why he dropped out of the team initially and why Chris Rigg came in.
15:07But I think that when he has been called upon, he's done very well for Sunderland as well.
15:12So not having him and then also not having Salmon to boot, it has been a real test for Regis Lebris.
15:18And I think you are maybe starting to see in some moments, perhaps just a little bit of legginess creeping in,
15:25which is understandable when you're talking about a player like Chris Rigg, who is maybe 17 years old.
15:30He's going to get tired, and I do think he's performing really well.
15:33But in an ideal world, Sunderland would like to have that option to just give him a rest,
15:39maybe not start him every game, you know, maybe start a Dan Neal in a more advanced position or maybe give Alan Brown a run out.
15:44So the hope will be, I suppose, that come January, when we are expecting to see Alan Brown hopefully return to fitness,
15:52there's talk of Salmon hopefully being back, sort of back end of the year, beginning of next year as well.
15:57And when Sunderland have those options, yeah, you know, hopefully it will be the case that they are able to sort of present an even more energised and sort of dynamic midfield.
16:08And on that topic, should we perhaps talk about Jordan Henderson?
16:14Because he's a man who has obviously been mentioned multiple times over the first part of the season
16:20in relation to a potential sort of sensational homecoming, if you like, to the Stadium of Light.
16:26But he has been speaking recently, James.
16:29He's made some comments that would perhaps suggest that that might not be happening in January.
16:37Yes, so I'm just pulling the quotes up here.
16:40So I think Henderson was asked about it in Holland, presumably after a game, and he said, quote,
16:46It's my club ever since I was a boy of six or seven years old.
16:50Then I was in the stands, but I hope to stay here.
16:54I really like it here.
16:56I want to help the club grow further.
16:58We are taking those steps.
17:00He references reading the reports, adds that he doesn't know where it comes from,
17:06and then says that there's been no contact between him and Sunderland.
17:09This comes off the back, actually, of IAX's sport director.
17:13In October, he poured cold water over the transfer.
17:17He said that he was satisfied with Jordan as the captain, both on and off the pitch.
17:22He even said that they don't want to lose him, and they assume that he's going to stay at the club.
17:27So it doesn't look like it's happening in January.
17:30And to be honest, it did always feel like there was a lot of barriers to that deal, money being one of them.
17:36Does Jordan Henderson want to drop down at the Championship?
17:38Perhaps he feels that, you know, maybe he'll get a Premier League move after he's done with IAX.
17:43Or perhaps he wants to stay over there in a top European league.
17:47So, yeah, it doesn't seem to me like that one's happening.
17:52And it sounds quite flippant, but I'm not sure I'm too bothered, if that makes sense.
18:01I mean, Jordan Henderson, with all due respect to him, I think is a fantastic player.
18:04I do think he would improve Sunderland in terms of leadership, in terms of his on-field ability as well.
18:09Like, there's no doubt he'd be an asset to Sunderland.
18:11But I just think with this young midfield at the moment, they are achieving good things.
18:15And I think there's a couple of other things Sunderland can do in January.
18:19As you mentioned, hopefully Brown and Sam Ed come back.
18:21So I feel pretty relaxed about it.
18:24Obviously, Sam Ed's a big question mark, isn't he?
18:26Because if they can get him back fit and firing, he is supposed to be quite good.
18:30We haven't seen him yet.
18:31So if that does come good, then that would sort of ease the burden on that midfield.
18:35As we mentioned, Brown coming back into the fold as well.
18:38So, yeah, when it first got mooted, I could see the logic in it.
18:43But I don't think it's the end of the world that Jordan Henderson's not coming back in January.
18:49Yeah, it's always kind of felt like a piece of speculation which has been ruled by the heart rather than the head, for me, if that makes sense.
18:57I think that there is a certain romance to it.
18:59I think it would be exactly the same if we were talking about a 34, 35-year-old Jordan Pickford potentially returning to the Stadium of Light.
19:06You know, these players who come through the academy, who are Sunderland lads born and bred, who evidently support the club and have always supported the club.
19:15There is something nice about the idea of them coming back for one last dance, if you like.
19:20Obviously, as we've seen in the case of a Jermaine Defoe, that doesn't always work out as well as some people might hope or expect it to.
19:29I think with the Henderson thing, it very much does have to be seen through that sort of circumstantial prism of the options that some of them will have available to them in January.
19:39And I don't necessarily mean transfer options.
19:41I mean, in terms of the squad options that they have.
19:42So I think that if we're looking at the squad without a Sam Ed, I do think there is absolutely a logic to bringing in a more experienced, more sort of defensively minded midfielder to shore things up.
19:56And to, as we've said a million times already on this podcast already, sort of free up Dan Neil a little bit in certain moments.
20:02That being said, if we're talking about Sunderland's side who do have Sam Ed available to them, who was playing Champions League football not too long ago, who is, you know, widely respected and heavily touted as a very big talent.
20:16I sort of look at that and I think that if you can get him fully fit, if you can get Alan Brown fully fit, and then you talk about the three midfielders that have started pretty much every game for Sunderland.
20:26This season, you sort of start to look at it and you think, well, where would Jordan Henderson fit into that team, or perhaps more pertinently still, who would be getting the boot and who wouldn't be getting the minutes?
20:38And I think that when we're talking about players as exciting as Dan Neil and Joe Bellingham and Chris Rigg, it's kind of a difficult one to process and get your head around the idea of them consistently sitting on the bench.
20:50And I think that if you were to bring back Henderson, partially because of the player he is, partially because of the presumed sort of financial output it would require to bring him to the club, you would assume that he would be probably in that starting XI more often than not.
21:05And then you start to get into a position where you're thinking, well, someone's going to have to essentially be cut.
21:11And that's a really difficult one.
21:12So I think that I'm very much with you.
21:15I'm not not hugely, hugely disappointed by these comments.
21:20And I think it's if Sunderland have all the personnel available to them that they should have available to them over the next few weeks and that, then I really don't see it being too much of a problem at all, James.
21:32No, and I always thought as well, like when the Henderson stuff did come about, that there were a lot of stars that would have had to align at the same time for it to work.
21:40Ajax would have to be willing to let him go.
21:44Sunderland would have to want him.
21:46Sunderland would have to probably pay a fee.
21:48Henderson will have to lower his wage demands.
21:50Even then, Sunderland would have to find his wages.
21:53There'd have to be a spot on the squad.
21:55Rajeev Sabri would have to want them as well, presumably.
21:59You know, I think if Henderson was to come back to Sunderland, he'd probably, and it sounds mad to say like a Premier League and Champions League winning captain, but this is just the stage of his career that he is at.
22:10He would have to understand his role in the team and the squad, wouldn't he?
22:14He'd have to accept that he wasn't going to be playing every game because, as you mentioned, Sunderland have options.
22:18I think it would have been brilliant for Chris Rigg and Bellingham and Neil to learn off him.
22:23I think that absolutely would have been a brilliant by-product of Henderson coming back to Sunderland.
22:28But yeah, as we say, it's not the end of the world.
22:32It always did feel like a little bit of a pipe dream, didn't it?
22:35I mean, it's bloody great for us because we're writing about Jordan Henderson potentially coming back to Sunderland.
22:39And, you know, obviously there's huge interest in him because of his profile.
22:44It benefits us if those links are out there.
22:46But I think after those comments, after the comments by the sporting director as well, it does really look like one we can safely put to bed.
22:54And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
22:57I think it's one of those where you just sort of wish him well for the future.
23:02And Sunderland, hopefully, in my opinion, I think will be just fine.
23:07Yeah, fingers crossed.
23:08Fingers crossed.
23:09Another transfer link which is sort of beginning to emerge, it's sort of been tentatively mentioned a couple of times, is Louis Barry.
23:17Obviously, currently on loan at Stockport County, doing wonderful things for Stockport County as well.
23:23Suggestions that he could be recalled by Aston Villa and then sent out to a more sort of prominent EFL team in January, James.
23:30Sunderland are amongst the clubs who have been mentioned, but there have been a fair few clubs mentioned at this stage.
23:35I think it's better to reiterate.
23:36I mean, what do you make of that one?
23:38Because he's a very exciting young attacking player on loan from a Premier League team potentially.
23:44I mean, we've read the story before, haven't we?
23:48Yeah, and I think it makes sense for a lot of reasons.
23:52Obviously, you've just seen Ahmad Diallo completely change the Manchester derby for Manchester United.
23:59And Ruben Amiram has got his first Manchester derby win over Pep Guardiola's Manchester City treble winners four times in a row,
24:07thanks to Ahmad Diallo, who, let's face it, reignited his career at Sunderland.
24:12Sunderland are renowned for their work with young players, through the academy, through having a pathway, you know, Callum Doyle,
24:19all of these proof points, as Christian Speakman would call them, means that Sunderland are actually a pretty attractive destination for young players from Premier League clubs.
24:29We also know that Sunderland probably have one or two spots in their squad for a Premier League loanee if they are in touching distance of the promotion spots in January,
24:41which it looks like they're going to be, given the league position at the moment.
24:45So it does make sense from a lot of those perspectives.
24:49I mean, Louis Barry's a good player from what I've seen of him.
24:53He's done very, very well for Stockport County.
24:55Obviously, he was at Barcelona a little bit when he was a youngster.
24:59I think the only concern you would have about him is that he's 21, but he hasn't really done it in the Championship yet.
25:04He's been a League One or a League Two player when he's not been at Aston Villa.
25:10So it's really interesting.
25:11And just the transfer in general intrigues me, actually, because obviously Aston Villa are eyeing the opportunity to advance his career and potentially get him,
25:22you know, first team ready in the Premier League or perhaps they're ready in the ground for a sale.
25:26Eventually, I don't know.
25:27But, you know, he's got 15 goals in 21 games across all competitions for Stockport County.
25:32And I think, like, you know, I'm all for advancing the player and stuff, but is his future not best served at Stockport County for the rest of the season?
25:40Like, I don't know.
25:41It feels a bit jarring to just sort of rip him out, if that makes sense.
25:47I'd feel a little bit bad for Stockport County, but obviously the priority is always Sunderland.
25:53I think he would be a good sign in, obviously, that wing spot.
25:57I think he plays predominantly off the left, doesn't he?
26:02I think I might be wrong with that.
26:03Either way, you know, with the injuries to remain, Mundell and Tommy Watson, Mundell was eight weeks when he was out.
26:10So that's probably got about three or four, five weeks left, maybe.
26:14Tommy Watson was eight weeks as well.
26:16Perveda hasn't really provided too much competition for Patrick Roberts.
26:20So you can see that Sunderland maybe needs something else on the wings.
26:25You know, I think Stryker is a position as well, though.
26:29So if you can get a goal-scoring winger, I think that's usually positive.
26:33But I think the priority has to be, like, covering competition for Wilson Isidoro as well.
26:38I think we mentioned it on the podcast the last time, but you wrote about David Jones's comments and how he's always in.
26:44Louis Dreyfuss's and Speakman's ear about Stryker's and he uses the Ipswich example of last season,
26:50where they went out and got a couple in January and they were winning games late on and all of that sort of stuff.
26:55So could I see him coming in terms of Louis Barry to Sunderland?
26:59Yes, I could. I think he's going to have options as well.
27:02I think Borough, Leeds have been mentioned.
27:04So it's whoever can sort of win that race. A few question marks over him, I think, as well.
27:08But obviously a player with huge amounts of talent. Could Sunderland do with someone in that position?
27:13Probably, yeah. Although if everybody comes back, then suddenly you've got Perveda, Roberts, Mundell and Watson,
27:20then Isidoro can play out on the wing and all that sort of stuff.
27:23So I think it's interesting, actually.
27:25It's an interesting transfer and certainly one to watch, because you can never have too many goals in your side, can you?
27:31And he can certainly score goals.
27:34Yeah, he certainly can. I think it's interesting you mention his age,
27:38because I think that if he's maybe a couple of years younger, maybe they're a little bit more inclined to leave him at Stockport.
27:45I think they're maybe looking at him and thinking that while 21 is no age whatsoever,
27:50they may be wondering if the clock is ticking on him just a little bit more than it would have been if we're talking about a teenage talent emerging.
27:56And like you mentioned his goal record there, I cannot argue with his goal record.
28:00I think that at the very least, he deserves a chance to prove himself in the Championship.
28:05And I think it speaks volumes that the clubs who you've mentioned there, Sunderland, Borough, Leeds,
28:11they're playoff promotion contenders they would like to think of themselves as, at least.
28:16So we're talking about the top end of the Championship as well.
28:18So, yeah, certainly one to keep an eye on, I think, as January progresses and one that's probably going to rumble on for a while to come.
28:26Just wanted to ask you about a couple of potential Sunderland outgoings as well.
28:30The under-21s played Arsenal last night, beat Arsenal as well.
28:35Very good win for them.
28:37Nor Abdullah Bar, nor Dewis and Bennett.
28:41Just sort of interested to get your view on that, James, because usually you would expect them to be,
28:46not including the first-team squad, they'd usually be there or thereabouts for the 21s, but no mention of them against the Gunners.
28:54Yeah, no sign of them at all.
28:56There was no sign of them in the squad for Swansea for the first-team as well.
29:00I think Lebris was asked about it after the game and didn't really say too much about them,
29:07didn't reveal any sort of injuries to either of them.
29:10So you've got to presume that they've been left out against Arsenal again.
29:15Obviously, we don't know that for absolute certain, but I think reading between the lines, I think that's the state of play, to be honest.
29:23Dewis and Bennett has changed agents ahead of the January window.
29:28And I was actually looking through his stats today and he hasn't been involved in a first-team matchday squad this season, Dewis and Bennett.
29:36He only played once last season, the game against Southampton, which he got the assist for Chris Riggs' fifth goal.
29:43So that's been quite the drop-off.
29:45He's been playing left-back for the under-21s, which I don't think, if you asked him where he wants to play on the football pitch, I don't think that would be it, even though he's looked all right.
29:56His attitude, from what I can see at under-21s games, has been exemplary, to be honest.
30:01I don't think he's looked off it at all.
30:03I think in terms of that side of his game, he's looked quite good, but it's just not going to happen for him at Sunderland under Reggie Slibury.
30:11It doesn't appear.
30:13And I do feel a little bit for him as well, because he's had that big move over from Costa Rica.
30:18He's an international and it just hasn't worked in a new country.
30:22There was that disastrous move to Greece in January.
30:26I think he played three or four times, had the injury.
30:28So definitely, I think, time for Dewey to move on, whether that's loan or permanent, I don't know.
30:36And Abdullah Barr, obviously, sort of the same story, he's just not fancied at all, hasn't appeared for Sunderland since the Carabao Cup game,
30:47which I think was Bennett's last appearance for the first team as well, which was right at the start of the season.
30:57And just checking Abdullah Barr's stats, he's been on the bench one, two, three, four, five, six times only this season out of what, is it 20 or 21 games we're on?
31:09Currently hasn't been on the bench since Millwall away, which is one, two, three, four, five, five games ago.
31:19So I think it's safe to say that we can see the direction of travel for both of those players.
31:25If offers come in, then I think they'll go.
31:29Regis Lebris has hinted, though, that the balance of the squad has to be right as well.
31:36They are bodies and they are options.
31:38So, you know, if Sunderland picked up another couple of injuries, you could feasibly need them or the need to be in and around the squad.
31:45So I think that's always what to watch as well, that it does have to, of course, make sense for Sunderland.
31:50But I think it's just best for all parties as it stands for both of them to find either long moves or permanent dooms.
32:00Yeah, I think it speaks volumes, doesn't it, that we mentioned already on this podcast that Sunderland are having real personnel issues in wide areas at the moment.
32:10Certainly, if you look at the squad on paper, the only out-and-out winger, or at least out-and-out winger who we would have expected to be an out-and-out winger at the start of the season,
32:19who is fit and firing is Patrick Roberts.
32:21You know, I see Elisa Mayenda sort of adapted into that role.
32:23And I think, by the way, it looks pretty bright.
32:26I think he's doing OK for a young lad learning the position on the fly.
32:29And I think he deserves credit for that.
32:31But, you know, the fact that we are talking about such a lack of options in wide areas and it doesn't feel even remotely realistic to see a Jervis and Bennett or an Abdullah Barr,
32:45and especially an Abdullah Barr, bearing in mind how much he did feature last season.
32:48The fact that we're not seeing them get anywhere near the first team picture, I think it really does speak volumes for both of them.
32:57I mean, obviously, nothing is impossible in the sense that a few weeks ago, you would have probably said something similar about Adil Ashish.
33:04And while I don't think that Ashish's cameo against Bristol City necessarily guarantees that he's got a huge role to play under Regis Lebris going forward,
33:12you know, it would at least suggest that, you know, like you say, they are bodies and they might have roles to play in some capacity.
33:21That being said, the balance of likelihood, I think you're right.
33:24I think, you know, if Sunderland were to receive suitable offers, then I think they would be happy to move these players on, whether that is permanently or on loan.
33:33And Sunderland have shown that they're willing to do that as well.
33:34You know, Pierre Ekwer is perhaps the best example of that.
33:37Someone who was a really prominent first team figure last season and who's now over in France with Saint-Étienne.
33:45You know, so it's not as if Sunderland have any real reservations about moving players on if they find the right move for them, I suppose.
33:54But it is just a shame, isn't it?
33:55Like you say, I've seen two players who've come over with huge amounts of potential and sort of, you know, really promising reputations who maybe haven't quite been able to sort of find their way into the plans as they would have liked.
34:09But yeah, I don't know. It's going to be interesting to see what happens with them in January.
34:13On that note as well, I just wanted to bring up a couple of players who have been featuring for the Under-21s.
34:19Trey Ogunsui and Marcus Neal as well.
34:23We'll get on the Neal in a minute because he had a big role to play in the Arsenal game.
34:26But no, Trey Ogunsui for the Under-21s against Arsenal.
34:30Obviously, rumours swirling that there's a lot of interest from Liverpool in him.
34:35I mean, do we have reasons to worry that he wasn't involved in that game, James?
34:41No, well, we actually, the Sunderland Echo actually broke the Liverpool interest about a year ago.
34:45So that's been ongoing for quite a while.
34:47We had the story as well, I think maybe a month ago, and then it's come out in the national press as well.
34:54But no, nothing to be worried about.
34:56He didn't play for the Under-21s down at Arsenal last night.
34:59But that's because Sunderland's Under-18s play in the FA Youth Cup tonight against Derby County.
35:04I think Ogunsui is going to start or at least play a party still eligible, incredibly, for the Under-18s.
35:11So that's the situation there.
35:13Nothing to worry about.
35:14But, yeah, what a player.
35:15He's having a very, very, very fine youth season.
35:18I can't remember off the top of my head how many goal contributions he's got, but it's good.
35:22And I think, Jason, when we're up at Ebbledon, we really enjoy watching Trey Ogunsui play.
35:29I always remember his sort of first involvement with the Sunderland's first team came in pre-season under Tony Mowbray.
35:35And he lashed one against the bar within three minutes of being on the pitch.
35:39And I had a source actually tip me off about him two years ago and said he's going to be a brilliant, brilliant player.
35:48And he's probably Sunderland's best kept Academy secret.
35:51And you obviously listen when somebody says that, but you sort of put it to the back of your mind and you think, well, you'll have to see.
35:58But he is living up to the hype at the moment.
36:01And I don't want to put too much pressure on his shoulders because he's still very young, but he looks like a really, really fine player.
36:08And somebody who I'm really, really enjoying watching developing as well.
36:11It's been a privilege and a pleasure to watch some of these lads come through over the years.
36:16Like, I cannot explain how much joy it gave me to see Tommy Watson get those two goals against Stoke, because I've watched him now for a long time.
36:25It's one of the best things of the job, I think, actually, is when you get to watch young players come through, especially in the current system, which is really good, really vibrant.
36:34It's a real privilege, yeah, definitely.
36:38Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right.
36:39Under this current system as well, it feels like there is a hugely realistic pathway for these players, you know.
36:46Obviously, Threog and Sui has been in the first team matchday squad on a few occasions this season.
36:51And if he continues to produce the sort of form that he's been producing for the 21s,
36:55then I don't think it's out of the question that he could make his first team debut sooner rather than later.
37:02Obviously, one player who is perhaps a little bit further away from that first team picture, but who is really catching the eye, is Marcus Neil.
37:09A really young lad, but he is starting to make a bit of an impact with the 21s as well, isn't he?
37:14He scored last night against Arsenal and just interested to get your thoughts on him,
37:17because he looks to be another one on this sort of conveyor belt of talent that's come through the academy at the moment.
37:24Oh, absolutely. I mean, Marcus Neil, son of Lucas Neil, actually,
37:28the ex-Australian international, played for Blackburn, Millwall, Everton, West Ham off the top of my head, and I think Galatasaray as well.
37:37So, he comes from good football and stock. Sunderland did really well to get him from Liverpool.
37:41I'm not sure exactly why he left, whether he was allowed to leave.
37:45I imagine Liverpool have got some pretty good options in that area within their academy.
37:50But he's coming to Sunderland. He came in sort of last season and then officially signed during the summer.
37:55But I think he's got 13 goals and assists across the season so far.
38:00He played for the under-21s last night off the bench against Arsenal in London and scored the winner as well in a two-on win,
38:08which is a really, really impressive feat for a 16-year-old to be doing that for the under-21s, I think is really, really good signs.
38:16Again, don't want to put too much pressure on these young lads, but I just think that's a really good indication that there's a player there.
38:23Obviously, the stars have to align as well.
38:25Hopefully, the progression can continue, stay injury-free, all of that sort of stuff.
38:30But it just speaks to the vibrancy at the academy of the options, the forward planning.
38:36I'm going to have a piece on this on Thursday.
38:40But the structure there is, I think, really impressive.
38:43The way they go around recruitment, the pathway, the way the managers play, the way they find the loans.
38:49The key people that they've appointed to key positions, like Robin Nicholls, is not a name that gets mentioned a lot by Sunderland fans,
38:57but he's the academy manager at the Academy of Light.
38:59I think he does an excellent job.
39:02The coach is there.
39:03John Moore, Finn Lynch, who take the under-18s, I think they're doing a brilliant job.
39:07Graeme Murdoch, we know, is a really, really good operator.
39:10All of this under the stewardship of Christian Speakman.
39:14There's Stuart English, the head of coaching as well.
39:16Sunderland have appointed and invested in that academy.
39:18I think it's really, really bearing fruit at the moment.
39:22Players like Trey Ogunsui, Marcus Neill, hopefully they can be the next ones that come through,
39:28like Tommy Watson and Chris Rigg have done over recent years.
39:32I think those are the sorts of stories that we really enjoy as fans.
39:36The Premier League's really attractive and the Championship's really attractive,
39:41and there's so much money swirling around.
39:45Those are good stories as well.
39:46We all like a big-money transfer move and a big-money sale.
39:50Those get the juices flowing.
39:52We've all played football manager in FIFA over the years.
39:54That's what football fans like.
39:57That's what we like to report on as well.
39:59But for me, I also really, really, really like covering these young players.
40:04I also really, really like it when a young player comes through at Sunderland and advances to the first team.
40:08I get an extreme amount of joy and pleasure out of that, and I think other fans do as well.
40:13It's nice to see it happening more often because you always felt that Sunderland's academy had the potential to do that,
40:19obviously, with Jordan Henderson and Jordan Pickford over the years.
40:22But it didn't perhaps happen enough.
40:24They didn't feed into it enough when they were in the Premier League.
40:27Maybe they should have.
40:29So, to see it sort of bearing fruit and coming full circle now, I think, is really enjoyable.
40:36Absolutely, absolutely.
40:38Lovely stuff.
40:39Well, that's all we've got time for on this week's show.
40:41Join us again next week.
40:41We got there in the end, bloody hell.
40:43We did get there in the end.
40:44Apologies for the technical difficulties.
40:47I don't know how long I was out, but I was out for a while.
40:49It might have been the best five minutes.
40:50It felt like seven hours, Jason.
40:53It's an awful feel, isn't it, where you're just vamping away on your way out.
40:56Yeah, anyway, join us again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and developments.
41:00In the meantime, follow all the latest Black Cats news on the Sunderland Echo or give us a follow on social media.
41:06Thanks to James.
41:07Thanks to you for listening.
41:08See you again next week.