Sunderland win three in three to go top of Championship by five points
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00:00Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:24My name is James Copley and I'm joined by my colleague, Phil Smith.
00:29Our top of the championship, five points clear at the top of the league after three wins on the spin.
00:35It feels nice to say that, Phil.
00:38It does, yeah. I think like, obviously, the top of the league thing is incredible.
00:43I think to win three games in a week, I think is something that is worth reflecting on and dwelling on.
00:49To do that in the championship, two away games.
00:53The fact that one of them was a Wednesday, Saturday turn around, which was very much not an advantage for Sunderland,
00:59I think is a really, really impressive achievement, actually.
01:02Won all three games in very different ways.
01:05You know, the contrast to the Oxford game and the Luton game, for example, you know,
01:08to show those different sides to the game is quite remarkable, really.
01:12And obviously we have the realism that, you know, the whole game might have gone slightly differently on another day,
01:19although I do think Sunderland deserved to win.
01:21The Luton game obviously could have gone a different way on another day,
01:24even though Sunderland showed a lot of really admirable qualities.
01:27To win three games in six days in the championship, especially with two of them on the road,
01:33I think is a hugely impressive achievement.
01:37Yeah, it is. And I think, as you mentioned, the three games being so vastly different is really impressive.
01:44I think all of Sunderland's opponents, or two of Sunderland's opponents, particularly Luton and Oxford,
01:49I think they'll have had an extra day, possibly even Hull as well, an extra day's rest and recovery,
01:56given the nature of Sunderland's championship schedule.
01:58But the whole game, decided by a moment of quality, the Luton game,
02:02I think that was the most impressive out of the three for me in terms of it was such a big physical test
02:08and Sunderland did so well to stand up to that in such a highly charged atmosphere as well.
02:12I was really taken aback, actually, by, you know, how impressive Luton's fans were, in a sense.
02:18It's a very tight stadium. They make it very difficult to play there.
02:23And for Sunderland to come away with a 2-1 victory there was mightily impressive.
02:26And then to fast forward to the Oxford game, I think I said to you in the moments after the final whistle, Phil,
02:32that it's very rare that I've seen Sunderland play a game of football and there almost be no jeopardy.
02:38There was no jeopardy in that game at all.
02:40I think the first shot on Sunderland's goal came after 30 minutes and it was straight at Simon Moore.
02:48And I don't really remember Oxford having another attempt after that.
02:51If they did, it was possibly from range.
02:53It was such a comprehensively brilliant and measured display.
02:58And the scary thing is, in a way, is that I actually think Sunderland have a few more games to go from that Oxford performance.
03:03It was, I wouldn't say playing within themselves, but I don't think they put Oxford to the sword as much as they could have
03:13if they were at full throttle, having not played three games in six days.
03:18Yeah, I think one of the things that Lebris has really been on is, a word he uses a lot, is efficiency.
03:23He's obsessed with his 46-game season, which obviously makes sense.
03:26If you think about it, he's only ever had a senior management career in France where they played 34 games.
03:32So from his perspective, he's like, you know, we still have a full season to play.
03:38But I think it's a really important part of his philosophy is that he talks a lot about players, about managing their energy.
03:43And I think we have seen it already.
03:45So sometimes a season where Sunderland haven't necessarily gone to really put the foot on the throat.
03:51I think Sheffield Wednesday is an example where there was no real need to.
03:54The game was kind of won.
03:55And I think you saw some management of energy, if you like, Lebris would call it efficiency.
03:59And we definitely saw that on Saturday.
04:01I think I completely agree with you with Luton.
04:03And I think anyone who's been there will know and say the same, any fan, that, you know, it is a unique kind of atmosphere.
04:09I think Fratton Park is the only one that comes close, I think, in terms of the sort of the modern era, in terms of the intensity, how close the fans are, the kind of noise that is able to get there.
04:18Plymouth actually is starting to get there, to Plymouth's immense credit.
04:22And I think that was hugely impressive that Sunderland were able to stand up to that.
04:27I think, though, in some ways, I think the Oxford win was a lot more impressive for the reasons that you've outlined there, which is I think if you played that game 100 times over, I think Sunderland won it 99 times.
04:38Whereas the Luton game, understandably, and it's not criticisms, you know, you have to ride your luck there a bit.
04:43You know, if you played that game 100 times over, you know, Luton would win a few of them.
04:47I thought this was just a complete domination from first whistle to last, where I agree, you know, you could say that Sunderland weren't ruthless enough, they could have scored more.
04:56But the reality is, I don't think for a single second, I thought they were going to lose that game.
05:00They just had a complete level of control over it.
05:03And that was what I found really exciting, because it's not really a level, sorry, it's not really a performance that we've seen from the Brice so far.
05:10Just a complete domination of the football, a complete domination of the game, controlling the game with the ball.
05:16Most of the times when we talk this season about Sunderland being in control of the game, it's been about their defensive shape and counterattacking.
05:23This was the first time we've seen them put in what I would describe as almost like a Mowbray-esque performance.
05:27You know, the passing was fantastic, real thirst to dominate the ball.
05:34But what they also had was a really, you know, that sound defensive structure was still there.
05:38So, you know, I think that they're getting carried away because I think we realistically, we know Oxford are going to probably be in the bottom half of the league this season.
05:46You know, having said that, they've drawn their last five games, including games against Burnley and West Brom.
05:50So we shouldn't write off the achievement either.
05:51So I think, yeah, I think that's the big thing, as you alluded to towards the start there.
05:56The big thing to take away from this week is to see Sunderland win very different games in very, very different ways.
06:01I'm not sure that's a trait we've associated with them over the last couple of years.
06:06So that's, you know, really exciting.
06:08And ultimately, it's credit to Lebris because I think there's a real tactical flexibility within the squad, I think, that he's developing.
06:16It was really pleasing for me to see Oxford's players, with the greatest of respect to them,
06:22come to the Stadium of Light and almost wilt in the face, not only of the crowd who were very good,
06:29but in the face of Sunderland's technical ability as well.
06:32It felt like after five or ten minutes, Oxford were sort of sat there thinking,
06:36oh my God, what is this? What is this midfield?
06:38They are just playing round us.
06:40Patrick Roberts is getting the ball and beating two men every time.
06:43You know, every time we win the ball, Job's right there in our faces, you know, recycling possession.
06:48It just felt like they couldn't get a foothold.
06:50And after sort of the first goal went in, it felt like their mentality changed towards like, let's not get beaten four or five here.
06:58And I think, Phil, what's also really pleasing as well is from a fan's perspective,
07:03we all look for things to go wrong, don't we?
07:06We are attuned, you know, we're in tune to things going wrong.
07:09We're highly accustomed to things going wrong at Sunderland.
07:11So coming into that Oxford game, you're looking at going, you know, three games in six days.
07:16We're top of the league.
07:17We're going to extend our lead at the top of the league.
07:20It's Oxford United who aren't in very good form.
07:22It's at home.
07:23That means we'll probably do as Sunderland and get beat.
07:26But for once, we didn't.
07:28And we turned in a majestic performance.
07:31Yeah, I thought that was one of the biggest sort of fears going into the game,
07:33that it would be a bit after the Lord's Mayor's show.
07:36All that adrenaline and, you know, the togetherness we saw from the scenes at the full-time whistle.
07:41I feared there'd be a drop just around the whole place.
07:44It's not a negativity, it's sort of a feeling of,
07:47oh, we'll turn up and get Oxford beat, and that that might permeate to the players.
07:52You know, there'd be some tired legs and that, you know, Oxford had a bit more recovery time.
07:56And so the precision of the passer might not be there.
07:59And I think that's ultimately where, you know, I've spoken now about praising the briefs for the tactical flexibility.
08:04I think the intensity of the performance, you have to really credit the players,
08:07because you could tell from minute one that they were right on it.
08:10And I think that the fans then fed off that.
08:13They could feel straight away that the team was on it and they actually created a real atmosphere,
08:17which is not always easy to do in games like that.
08:19And we've probably seen that at times, particularly last season and the season before,
08:22when some of them, like, struggled to break down the low block.
08:25I think the point you make about the Oxford ones is an interesting one,
08:27because I felt all the way through, like, they were still,
08:31I don't think they gave up or I don't think they tried to not press.
08:35I think you could see they were constantly trying to get their press going.
08:38But I think the amount of times that you could see an Oxford midfielder
08:42sort of try and dive out and go for the ball.
08:44And the way of someone's passing was just perfect all the time.
08:47So all the time they would come out for it and it would be just beyond them.
08:49It would be just too quick for them.
08:51And it was just sheer quality.
08:53I thought, you know, that midfield three, I thought it was amazing to watch the quality.
08:58And actually, you've got to give credit to Mepham in 09 as well,
09:00because they're a big part of that, with their distribution from the back.
09:03But I thought that was three incredibly exciting performances from central midfielders.
09:09You know, what is it, 17, 18, 22?
09:15Wow. 17, 19, Job's 19 now, isn't he?
09:18But yeah, just incredibly exciting, I think, to watch them perform at that level.
09:23And I think we've just got to enjoy that, to be honest.
09:26Hopefully they'll all be here for a good while yet,
09:27but I doubt they'll be here forever.
09:29So we have to really savour afternoons like that, I think,
09:33because I increasingly believe that, you know,
09:35one day we're going to be looking back
09:37and we're going to be watching some of these players in the Champions League going crazy.
09:41Do you remember when they were in our midfield against Oxford?
09:43Yeah, I think it's definitely, don't get me wrong, I'm not selling them off,
09:49but we've got to enjoy that, I think, while they're all here.
09:53Yeah, well, let's drill down into that midfield,
09:54because Brown dropped out of the starting XI for Patrick Roberts.
09:59Patrick Roberts went over to the right.
10:00Chris Rigg came back into central midfield.
10:03He'd played on the right against Newton Town,
10:05but as you say, it was a virtue also displayed by the three of them.
10:08I particularly would like to highlight Dan Neillfield.
10:11We're both massive Dan Neill fans.
10:15I don't think I'm wrong in saying that perhaps we've thought
10:19that he's come in for a little bit too much criticism of late.
10:23Obviously, there was the mistake against Watford.
10:25He gave away the penalty for their winner at Vicarage Road,
10:30but he's a player we rate highly.
10:31He's playing in a slightly different role.
10:35He was at pains to point out after the game when I spoke to him
10:37that when he came into the side and replaced Corey Evans,
10:40some of them were playing in different formations.
10:42So, this season's a different role even to that.
10:45He drops into defence when Luke O'Neill carries the ball out.
10:47I think that's an excellent asset.
10:49His positional awareness is really good.
10:51And as you mentioned, against Oxford United,
10:53his weight of passing was sublime.
10:55The club posted the highlights video of him running the show,
10:59and it's hard to disagree.
11:00That's the Dan Neill we all want to see, isn't it?
11:02Perhaps at times this season, there have been a few moments
11:05where he has been a little bit under par,
11:07but I think what we do need to remember is that
11:09there is a seriously talented player there.
11:11And it's a bit like the Mepham syndrome, isn't it?
11:14Because Dan Neill's been around for a little while,
11:16because he's 22, and because we at Sunderland
11:20have this warped perception of what old is,
11:23we sort of think like...
11:24I certainly fall into the trap of thinking he's older than he is.
11:27I thought he was about 24 or 25, but he's still 22.
11:30He's still really young.
11:31To be putting in the displays that he's putting in,
11:33in the Championship, as captain as well,
11:37with the pressure that comes with, I think it's superb.
11:40And I think he's a brilliant player.
11:42Speaking to him after the game as well,
11:44I think he's really taken on that captaincy role.
11:46He speaks so well of his team-mates,
11:49and I think Sunderland have got a real gem.
11:51We'll come on to Rigan and Bellingham,
11:53but Dan Neill, I think, is fantastic.
11:57Yeah, definitely.
11:58I think the thing as well is what you saw at the weekend was...
12:03I don't think it's any coincidence that all the good stuff,
12:05all the very best stuff of Neill's game,
12:07the way he's able to set the tempo of the game,
12:09his passing range, the precision of his passing,
12:11the way he's passing.
12:12I think it's no coincidence that we maybe haven't seen
12:15a performance like that this season.
12:17Well, because Sunderland have never come close
12:19to having 60% of possession this season.
12:22If we think about a lot of the games,
12:25you know, Sunderland are generally sitting a little bit deeper.
12:27They're seeing less of the ball,
12:29and I don't think you're ever going to fully see
12:31the full sort of range of what Neill can do.
12:33Still very effective, in my opinion, in those kind of games,
12:35because I think if you look for a player who can essentially,
12:39when Sunderland are trying to play on the break,
12:40his role is to pick up the ball
12:42and move it quickly into the wingers.
12:43And he's still, in my opinion,
12:45the best player in the squad by a distance of doing that.
12:47And that's why I've said throughout that,
12:49you know, I've never felt like taking him out of the team
12:51is the right option,
12:52because I think he's still the best passer of the ball.
12:54And when you want to play on the break,
12:56having someone who can feed your wingers early,
12:57accurately, is incredibly important.
13:00But I, you know, I accept at times,
13:02mainly because, you know, the defensive side of his game
13:05is not his absolute strongest,
13:06although it's improved a lot.
13:08Sometimes when you're not having a lot of the ball,
13:10it can look a little bit clunky.
13:11And, you know, and I definitely agree that at some point,
13:14if he gets fit, I'm sure there'll be games
13:16where we're looking at it and saying, you know,
13:17maybe this is a good game for Samed to play in,
13:19because he'll bring something completely different.
13:21But I think we, I think Saturday was a really timely reminder
13:24of just how good and how talented Dan Neal is.
13:26As you say, still very young, you know,
13:29but it's no surprise to me that when someone's
13:31completely got on top of the game
13:32and played a different way and controlled possession,
13:35it really brought out just how good Neal is.
13:40And Job in front of him as well,
13:43I'm starting to run out of things to say about him,
13:45as he put in a pass for Rigg,
13:47he sort of got it on the half turn, he played in Rigg.
13:50Rigg had a shot which was saved out for a corner.
13:53There was a moment as well that he again received the ball
13:55on the half turn, curled one,
13:57and I think it hit the stanchion of the goal.
14:01I think it's very easy to say that certain players
14:05have good physical attributes,
14:07but the way he uses his physical attributes
14:09in terms of his height, his size,
14:13the way and how intelligently he uses it
14:15to recycle the ball, to win the ball back,
14:17the desire to sort of do those doggies.
14:19And I would put Neal and Rigg into that category as well,
14:23to do the dirty work, to do the hard graft.
14:26It's so, so impressive for his young age.
14:28And as you say, I think it is one of those
14:31where enjoy while he's here
14:33because he is going right to the top
14:35and we're not even really talking about him
14:37being Jude Bellingham's brother anymore.
14:39He's become a player in his own right,
14:41and rightly so because his performances have warranted that.
14:44There's none of this talk about him just being in the team
14:48because Speakman's friends with the family
14:49and whatnot, he is there firmly on merit
14:52and has been for a long, long time now.
14:56I think you're starting to see that he's really embracing
14:58that box-to-box rule, if you like.
15:01And, you know, we talked about it a lot last year
15:04about his best position, and I was quite in the camp of,
15:06like, why doesn't he have a go at being a striker
15:09because he can do it and there's not many of them around.
15:11But I think that, to be fair, it's hard to make that case now
15:14when you see just how superb he is.
15:18We've always known he's got that athleticism.
15:20That was clear from day one that he was going to be able
15:23to run more than pretty much any other player on the pitch.
15:27I think what we're seeing this year is that I think
15:29the speed of his passing has gone up.
15:31I don't know if that's because he's fresher.
15:33You know, maybe towards the end of last year,
15:35it was a bit of a mental fatigue.
15:36Not easy playing on that team.
15:38Obviously, he was playing every game
15:39pretty much of his first professional season.
15:42I think the speed of his passing, to me,
15:43and the speed of his decision-making
15:44has definitely improved very, very quickly.
15:46I don't know if that's because of the training he's doing
15:49or whether it is a mental sharpness thing.
15:51But I think that's what's so notable.
15:53I think he's been pretty...
15:54I think he's been exceptional this season.
15:55And the one thing, and I raise it because it was something
15:58he himself mentioned after his goal against Derby,
16:01was talking about how his game has obviously improved
16:03from last season.
16:05The one thing he didn't want to do was to lose
16:06that goal-scoring knack because, naturally,
16:08if he's got more defensive responsibility,
16:10if he's having to get up and down the pitch more,
16:12there's a chance it takes away from what he did last season,
16:15which not many players have,
16:16which is a knack of being in the right place
16:18at the right time in the box.
16:19And I think that was why that goal was so encouraging,
16:22to see him sort of crash the box,
16:24to get in between the two defenders.
16:26And it's a really good finish as well.
16:27I think he makes it look easy.
16:29I think you have to watch your back and then be like,
16:31actually, there's a lot of players
16:32that are headed straight at the keeper
16:33or, you know, takes it so calmly.
16:36So I think that's really exciting
16:38because hopefully that's a sign that, you know,
16:40all those other improvements in his game,
16:43hopefully now, you know, we'll start to see him
16:46get in the box a little bit more as well
16:48because he's so effective at doing that.
16:49And when we were in the press conference afterwards,
16:51Labrie spoke about that, didn't he?
16:52He kind of said that when you're implementing
16:55a new playing philosophy,
16:56when you're implementing a new game model,
16:59the final third is the hardest bit.
17:00It's almost like the last bit that you do.
17:02You get the defensive structure right,
17:03you get the shape right,
17:05and then you build in towards the final third.
17:07And you can tell that he was really, really encouraged
17:09by Joe getting in that position.
17:10It's clearly something that's been on his mind,
17:12and he thinks he can do more of.
17:13So, yeah, it's really exciting.
17:15And I'm with you.
17:16Like, I think that the penny has dropped now
17:20where you're like, oh, OK, yeah,
17:21this kid's going to play in the Champions League.
17:24And I think this kid's going to get international caps.
17:27It might be a way off yet,
17:29but you're like, oh my God, yeah,
17:30he is something quite special.
17:34And I think that, you know,
17:36I think, do you think Sunderland have to go up
17:38for him to be a Sunderland player next year?
17:40I increasingly think so.
17:42I think we're bordering on that level of performance,
17:45to be honest.
17:45Obviously, there was Palace interest last season.
17:47He signed the new contract.
17:48But I just think his physical attributes, his talent,
17:51the name will come into it as well
17:52because it's a bit of a glamour signing, isn't it?
17:55I think it's the quality and the athleticism
17:58more than anything else.
17:59I just think teams are going to want to take a punt on that
18:01because it's so unique.
18:03Yeah, I don't think it happens in January, though.
18:06There may well be interest,
18:07but I don't think a deal like that would happen in January.
18:09Just because, I mean, for a Premier League club
18:13to sign Bellingham in January,
18:15you're likely going to be maybe struggling
18:17at the wrong end of the table.
18:18And is a 19-year-old Joe Bellingham going to come in
18:21and fix your problem at the Premier League?
18:22Yes, he's extremely good,
18:24but probably not if you're towards that bottom end.
18:27I think he's set for sort of a, I don't know,
18:31an eighth to fourth place move,
18:34maybe even a little higher in the summer.
18:37I think he could go abroad
18:38and play in a team that's in Europe.
18:39Yeah, Dortmund.
18:42Yeah, and we know that the family and stuff
18:46would be very open to that.
18:47And he's certainly mature enough and intelligent enough
18:50to embrace that kind of challenge.
18:51So, I don't think he would want to do it.
18:55I think one of the best things about Joe
18:57is similar to Isidore,
18:58is that he's completely bought into the Sunderland thing
19:00and embraced it.
19:01And I don't think we're talking about it.
19:04Maybe we shouldn't, but I just think it's so obvious.
19:06But I think he'll be looking at it thinking,
19:09I can get Sunderland up this year.
19:10And I think that's a massive motivation for him.
19:12I just think that he's the one where I'm like,
19:16I think it's going to be impossible
19:17to almost deny his talent next summer
19:19if he's not in the Premier League.
19:21Yeah.
19:22Yeah, that's just my feeling.
19:24And credit to everyone for kind of standing firm
19:26on the Palace stuff in the summer,
19:27player club, because they were good bids,
19:31but my word, next summer we're going to be talking
19:33about something completely different.
19:36He's already added, what, I don't know,
19:38three, four, five million to his price tag
19:40with his performances this season already.
19:42You've got a couple of highlight goals in there as well.
19:44Sunderland top of the league.
19:46Yeah, I mean, it's going to be double
19:48what people were talking about last summer,
19:49if he keeps this up.
19:50And I know we shouldn't get carried away,
19:51it's 14 games in,
19:53but we're going to be talking double
19:54what you're talking about.
19:55And I could see him playing European football next season.
19:59I genuinely could, if he stays on this level.
20:02I mean, you could,
20:04I mean, we're getting way ahead of ourselves now,
20:05but you could envisage a scenario
20:07in which Sunderland won promotion
20:08and he still went, because he's that good.
20:10And the money will be there.
20:11Yeah.
20:12Yeah, that is getting too far ahead of ourselves,
20:14I reckon.
20:17Let's...
20:19No, listen, I think there'll be huge bids
20:21from Jordan next summer.
20:22I think we both agree on that.
20:23And I think that if Sunderland are in the Premier League,
20:26then there'll be, you know,
20:28there's a conversation there about,
20:29is a year in the Premier League
20:30with Sunderland the best thing to do?
20:32But I think, I feel he's destined
20:34to be in a top division next year, regardless.
20:38I think as well,
20:39in terms of the way Sunderland's viewed,
20:43like, globally or in the United Kingdom
20:46by scouts, other teams, players.
20:50When we spoke to Christian Speakman in the summer,
20:51he referenced, like, a proof point
20:53in terms of Callum Doyle.
20:55Well, Sunderland have moved on from that now
20:57and they've got various other proof points.
20:59Jack Clarke, Chris Rigg, Patrick Roberts, Joe Bellingham.
21:02It's fast becoming a really, really good place to go
21:05and get your career kickstarted
21:07as a young player to play games.
21:10You know, it will be a sad day
21:12when a Joe Bellingham or a Chris Rigg does eventually go,
21:15but I think it's one of those
21:18where you can sort of accept it,
21:19given the, sort of, the, in quotes, net positive
21:23that it's had on the football club as well.
21:25You get the money, obviously, as well.
21:27I think the Clarke thing's a big one, really,
21:29because, you know, we spoke,
21:31loads in the first 18 months to two years
21:34when this new kind of regime took over
21:36about saying, like, it's going to be really interesting
21:38when the first big sale happens,
21:39what the mood is, how it's perceived.
21:41Now, the Stewart one was funny
21:43because I think everyone accepted
21:45that they got a really good deal for Stewart,
21:47given his injury situation and his contract situation,
21:49but obviously they're pretty, you know,
21:51I think we can say at this point,
21:53they've fairly spectacularly failed to replace him.
21:56Now, to be fair, Mienda looks a really good investment
21:59and you have to, you know, tip your cap a year later
22:01and say, yeah, they've invested in a good player
22:02for the long run there,
22:04but generally speaking, they weren't able to replace him.
22:06I think the Clarke thing is massive
22:08because, like, the Clarke thing was a bit of a masterclass.
22:11They got Mundell in six months before he settled.
22:14He got a bit of action here and there
22:17and then he was ready for a first full pre-season
22:19to really attack it and he fit seamlessly into that role.
22:23It would have seemed incredible to us
22:24on the eve of the season
22:26to imagine that Clarke would get sold,
22:28you know, our fear would be realised
22:30quite early in the season
22:31and we'd be sat here talking about something
22:33with 28 points in 12 games.
22:34Well, that would have seemed inconceivable to us.
22:38That Bradford City game,
22:39Mundell played on the left pre-season and he was good.
22:41Don't get me wrong,
22:42we all thought it was a promising performance,
22:44but we didn't imagine that he would hit
22:46these heights after Clarke, so no chance.
22:48No, I mean, that performance did make us both go,
22:51and anyone who was there, like, okay, yeah, this kid,
22:53he has absolutely gone through another gear
22:55from where he was when he first arrived.
22:57I think that was obvious.
22:58But you couldn't have envisaged these kind of numbers.
23:02And I think that is now, you know,
23:04the knock-on effect is next step,
23:05the time the next one goes,
23:06which will happen at some point,
23:08regardless of whether someone gets the Premier League or not,
23:10I think there will be,
23:12it won't feel quite as dramatic, I don't think,
23:15because I think the Clarke thing has built,
23:19what's happened with Mundell, I think,
23:20has built a level of trust,
23:22is probably how I would put it, I think.
23:25Because that, let's be fair,
23:27that has been a masterclass.
23:28They've made a huge profit,
23:30and they had, you know, the player ready and waiting,
23:33who, yeah, you have to give them a huge amount of credit
23:35for that, that was it.
23:36To get Mundell in last January,
23:40the window, as a whole, like last summer,
23:43was not what summer needed.
23:44We don't need to be revisionist about that.
23:46It was not what summer needed.
23:47Absolutely.
23:49But that was a brilliant bit of recruitment.
23:52And, you know, we can say that.
23:56I think all you can ask, as well,
23:59is that sort of lessons are learned.
24:00Obviously, the Stuart sale and who came in to replace him
24:03wasn't what Sunderland needed then.
24:06But with Clarke-Mundell,
24:08they appear to have learned from that in a way as well,
24:10and they've identified a replacement
24:12and already had them in the door,
24:14which, when you look at the likes of Brighton and Brentford,
24:18that's how they tend to do it in the Premier League,
24:19that the replacement's bedded in for six months
24:22already in the door,
24:23they're already pre-empting these sales.
24:24Maybe, perhaps, with Stuart,
24:26it was tougher because strikers are harder to come by,
24:29and that was a deadline day deal
24:31that sort of came out the blue, in a sense, as well.
24:34But, yeah, all you can ask is that, you know,
24:37people learn from mistakes,
24:39and there have been a fair few mistakes at Sunderland,
24:41but you can't fault them at the moment, I don't think.
24:45No, listen, the summer window is looking hugely superior
24:50to the two windows that came before it.
24:53And I totally take the point that Sunderland would say,
24:56well, hang on, you know, we bought Joby a year ago,
24:58look at him now, we bought Mundell in January, like, you know,
25:02but I think what they weren't able to do
25:03in either of those windows really was improve the team.
25:06Now, I know that that sounds like a funny thing to say
25:08when the vast majority of the core of the side
25:10were in place last year.
25:12I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever
25:13that Brown has improved the team,
25:15whether it's coming off the bench,
25:16whether it's stepping in when he's being required,
25:19he's improved the team.
25:20Mepham is not a deal that I would have seen
25:22someone doing last year or the year before.
25:24You get an injury, and so you bring in,
25:27go out and just bring in a top-caliber replacement.
25:29I mean, that's an outstanding bit of business, really.
25:34So I think that, yeah, I think you can see that some,
25:37there's a little bit more flexibility.
25:39There's a little bit more ambition.
25:41Yeah, yeah.
25:42There's a little bit more ambition.
25:43And I expect as well that that's the model in action
25:46a little bit, because maybe, you know,
25:48there's probably no coincidence that 7 o'clock
25:51allows you to loan Mepham in for the season,
25:53that allows you to loan Sam Ed in for the season.
25:55I know that's, we haven't seen Sam Ed,
25:57so that doesn't look great at the moment,
25:58but generally, you know, I think that is,
26:00we are seeing an increased level of ambition
26:02that, in fact, does come with the fact
26:04that someone has cashed in on players.
26:05So at the moment, it feels really exciting.
26:08It feels like it's moving smoothly.
26:09It's functioning, but it's the championship, right?
26:13It's the championship,
26:14and you never, ever, never know what lies in wait.
26:18And it's another brutal week coming up.
26:20It's like you get a couple of days pause,
26:22and rightly so, we can all kind of bask in it a bit,
26:24and then it's like another two away games.
26:26And, you know, QPR, okay, they're having a bad season,
26:30but they'll be tough at home.
26:32Preston have improved a lot under Paul Heckenbottom.
26:34That's going to be tricky.
26:35And then you think you've got a home game,
26:37but it's, I mean, again,
26:38Coventry haven't had a great start of the season,
26:40but we know they're a really good side.
26:41So, yeah, it's like that's the championship, though, right?
26:44It's like, you can never be comfortable.
26:47It's absolutely brutal.
26:49Yeah, it is.
26:50And it's one of those where the model looks good
26:52when you're winning games,
26:53and it doesn't look so good when you're not winning games.
26:54It really is that simple sometimes.
26:57Phil, I want to talk about my new favourite player,
27:01Wilson Isidor, because we gave him the big introduction
27:05on last week's podcast.
27:06We were talking about comparisons to Thierry Henry.
27:09You were quite rightly telling me
27:11not to build him up too much.
27:13And then he scores an over-the-shoulder volley
27:15right at the bottom corner,
27:17and then proceeds to do the honorary celebration
27:20in front of the Stadium of Light crowd.
27:22I feel vindicated, but my word, what a finish.
27:26Yeah, it was.
27:27And I think that's what's,
27:30his movement is so good.
27:32I was chatting with Gareth on the Wise Men Say podcast
27:35yesterday about this and about how,
27:38I think that we spoke a lot last year.
27:40There was this, like, is someone's striker's problem,
27:44is it the more break coaching,
27:46or is it the strikers?
27:47And it was kind of a big debate.
27:49And, you know, I think, in my opinion,
27:51I think what we're seeing from Isidor
27:53kind of proves that it wasn't more break coaching.
27:56You know, I think it was just the movement
27:58and the presence wasn't really there
27:59from the players who were playing up front
28:01for some of that time.
28:02I think Isidor's intelligence, but also his mobility,
28:05has added a completely different sort of dimension
28:08to this team.
28:09Whether that's the fact that players like Neil
28:11can play early passes in behind from to chase,
28:14or whether it's the fact that there's now a real target
28:16in the box for players like Hume and Roberts.
28:18You know, and I thought that was summed up by
28:20just before someone's goal, the header Isidor had
28:22from a Hume cross that went just wide.
28:24And then obviously the goal he scored from Neil.
28:26Someone's players have always been capable
28:29of producing those kinds of chances.
28:30But last season, I just don't think we had a striker
28:33who was alert to those or who was confident enough.
28:35Maybe, you know, with a player like Berstow,
28:37it was more about confidence and ability,
28:38I think, probably.
28:41But, you know, Isidor had a different dimension.
28:43And I made the point on the Wise Men Say podcast yesterday
28:46that reminds me a little bit.
28:47It only happened like a couple of times,
28:49but there was a couple of times that season
28:51where Stuart, Ahmad, Roberts and Clark
28:53were all fit playing together.
28:56And some of them looked like they had so many
28:58different ways to hurt the opposition.
29:00And that's what I felt like on Saturday
29:01for the first time in a long time.
29:03We can put crosses in the box.
29:05We can do nice little sort of passes
29:07around the edge of the box.
29:07We can shoot from range.
29:09We can counter attack.
29:10And I think he's given,
29:12I think he's added like different ways
29:14for someone to hurt teams.
29:18Again, credit to Labrisa.
29:20I think it was fairly influential in that transfer.
29:22And it looks like a fantastic pick-off.
29:26It was funny to speak to Dan Neil
29:27after the Oxford game, actually,
29:29because he's obviously got the assists
29:31for Isidor's most recent goals
29:35against Hull City and Oxford.
29:37Obviously, Hull City with that sort of tackle,
29:39which Isidor had to do quite a bit.
29:41And then the goal as well,
29:42it was a lovely ball around the corner for Isidor.
29:46And somebody pointed out to Dan
29:48how nice of a baller he was.
29:49And he said the same thing
29:50that he did about the Hull goal.
29:51And it's like, well,
29:52he still has a fair bit to do, to be fair to him.
29:56So, you know, great humility shown.
29:59We did touch upon it last week,
30:00I think, Phil, from memory,
30:01but you wrote a piece about Isidor's loan situation
30:04on the Sunland Echo website,
30:05which you can all go and read.
30:06Just briefly outline that again,
30:08because there's a fair bit of interest
30:09around that now, given his goal return,
30:12understandably, and reflect it as well
30:14on how many people actually read the piece.
30:17Yeah, so I think there was a bit of confusion
30:20sprung up, understandably,
30:21from the fact that when he signed,
30:23Sunland announced that it was a loan
30:24for the season with an option to buy,
30:25and Zenit announced that it was a loan
30:27with, I think, a mandatory right to buy,
30:30I think was the phrase they used.
30:31Yeah.
30:32So anyway, my understanding of the situation
30:34basically is it's similar to Diakie's
30:36when he came from Union Berlin.
30:38So it's a loan.
30:40If Sunland are a championship team next summer,
30:42they have the option
30:44whether they want to do the deal.
30:46If they're a Premier League team next summer,
30:49then it's automatically triggered
30:50and you'll become a Sunland player.
30:53Makes sense from a Sunland perspective
30:54because, you know, it is a good chunk of money.
30:57It's not like it's not close
31:00to some of the money we're seeing spent
31:01on other strikers by championship clubs
31:03like Tom Cannon to Leicester
31:06or anything like that,
31:06but it's a substantial chunk.
31:08So I think if Sunland are still a championship team,
31:10then obviously there's a,
31:11you know, there's a positive thought
31:12about whether you do it.
31:13If he's playing as he is now,
31:14it's pretty obvious that they will do it.
31:17So the fact that, you know,
31:18Sunland have those clauses,
31:20the fact that Isidore clearly loves it here
31:22and I think is desperate to stay.
31:25I think it's one that fans can feel
31:27fairly reassured about,
31:28that it's mostly in hand, I think.
31:29I don't think there's any need
31:30for huge concern on that.
31:32The answer that I don't have at the moment
31:34is obviously there is this question mark
31:36over how exactly you do business
31:38with Russian football clubs at the moment.
31:41The loan, obviously doing a loan
31:44for various reasons is very different
31:46to a permanent transaction
31:47where you're paying a fee.
31:49I'm not saying that it's a problem.
31:51I'm saying that at the moment
31:52I don't have the answer to that
31:53and hopefully we'll have the answer
31:54to that at some point.
31:55But from a pure contractual perspective,
31:57it's automatically triggered
32:00if someone go up
32:01and if they don't go up,
32:02they have the option to do it anyway.
32:04So, yeah, they're definitely
32:06in as strong of a position
32:07as they could be on that right now.
32:11Yeah, absolutely.
32:11Let's throw it forward a little bit,
32:13obviously, QPR on Saturday, Phil.
32:17The big selection
32:20talking point from the game
32:21against Oxford United
32:22was that Simon Moore came in
32:23for Anthony Patterson,
32:24who had taken a little bit of a knock
32:25versus Luton Town.
32:26Le Brie said after the game
32:28that he didn't think it was too serious.
32:31Obviously, someone having an open
32:33training session today, Phil,
32:34which you'll be attending.
32:35So it'll be interesting to see
32:36if Patterson plays any part in that.
32:39Le Brie is due to speak to the press
32:40again on Thursday.
32:42So I'm sure he'll have an update.
32:44But what's your gut feeling
32:47regarding Patterson
32:48and his chances of making
32:50the QPR game?
32:51Simon Moore did well,
32:52but didn't really have much to do.
32:53Let's be really honest.
32:56Yeah, to me, it seems a little bit
32:58of a stretch to see Patterson
32:59playing on Saturday,
33:00but I honestly don't have
33:02the answer to that.
33:02I think that it's clearly
33:04not a serious injury,
33:05but at the same time,
33:06it's a tight turnaround to Saturday,
33:08and you don't want to take any risks.
33:10And so we'll have to wait
33:11and see in that one.
33:12I mean, I think the Moore one's
33:13an interesting one
33:14because he didn't have a lot to do
33:16on Saturday, which is absolutely right.
33:17But I think he did look comfortable
33:19and he was fairly calm on the ball.
33:22He got a bit of a hospital pass
33:23from Serkan early on to me,
33:24which I'm out for a corner.
33:25But I think after that,
33:27his first touch was pretty good.
33:28His distribution was good.
33:30You know, and there was a couple of times
33:31where he sort of got off his line,
33:32clear a counter and stuff.
33:33So I think he did reassure me
33:35with his performance,
33:36although you are right to say
33:38that he didn't have a lot to do.
33:39I think the big thing
33:39that it wasn't just shots,
33:41he didn't have to,
33:42obviously he barely had any set pieces.
33:43I always think in the championship,
33:45that's kind of the big test
33:46for your goalkeeper.
33:46And I think I personally think
33:48that that's something
33:49that Patterson doesn't get the credit
33:50he's due for.
33:51I think he is quite commanding
33:52from set pieces,
33:53and I think it's only sometimes
33:55when you see other goalkeepers
33:56at the level that I think you realise
33:57you just have good ears
33:58from those scenarios.
33:59So if it was more against QPR
34:01or Preston where you're away from home
34:02and I would expect the opposition
34:03to have a lot more set pieces,
34:05I think that's obviously going to be
34:06a different kind of challenge
34:08and we'll learn a lot more about him.
34:10But I don't, I think that while he,
34:12I think while he didn't have
34:13much to do on Saturday,
34:13I would genuinely praise him
34:15for his performance.
34:15I thought his concentration
34:16was really good.
34:17And I thought he spread calm, really.
34:19I don't think he panicked his defence.
34:22Listen, someone will do everything
34:24to get Patterson out on the pitch, right?
34:26And it's not like a centre forward
34:27where you're like,
34:28oh, well, we could risk it.
34:29You know, he is playing in goal.
34:30So we'll wait and see.
34:32I wouldn't be surprised
34:34if it was more again
34:35for the next couple of games.
34:36But I think Sunderland
34:37will do everything they can
34:38to get Patterson out there.
34:41Yeah, definitely.
34:42You know, as you say,
34:44Moua did well and whatnot.
34:46But I think for me, if Patterson's fit,
34:49I think he's still Sunderland's
34:51best goalkeeper.
34:52Obviously, we've seen him play
34:54over 130 times,
34:56I think for Sunderland now.
34:57We've seen Simon Moua play once
34:59against Oxford.
35:00I think for me, you know,
35:02Patterson's done nothing
35:03to lose that shirt,
35:04other than get injured.
35:05I guess the problem would come, Phil,
35:07which somebody, I think,
35:08Warren Carter pointed out to me
35:10on social media would be
35:11if Patterson was,
35:13you know, out for two, three,
35:15maybe even four games.
35:18Simon Moua does well.
35:19Sunderland keep on winning.
35:20They're still top of the championship.
35:21Then it becomes a little bit
35:22more of a conundrum, doesn't it,
35:23for Liverpool?
35:26Honestly, I don't think so.
35:28I think Patterson just comes back in
35:30when he's fit.
35:30I just think he's the number one goalkeeper.
35:33And I just think he comes back in
35:35when he's ready.
35:36And I think, like, you know,
35:38Simon Moua will have known
35:39what the situation was
35:40when he came to sign for the club.
35:42Like, I don't think there's
35:43too much doubt around that.
35:44So I take the point.
35:46But for me, like, I think sometimes
35:48I think Patterson's in a similar
35:50category to Neil.
35:51I think maybe he does get taken
35:52for granted a little bit at times.
35:54And for me, like,
35:57you come straight back into the team
35:58as soon as he's ready.
35:59You pick your best goalkeeper.
36:01I think, like, I don't think it's like
36:02with the positions on the pitch,
36:04to be honest.
36:04I think that he has to play
36:05when he's ready.
36:06And hopefully that's sooner
36:08rather than later.
36:10Yeah, I think you're right on that.
36:12Let's look ahead again
36:13to the QPR game.
36:15Obviously, again, with the caveat
36:17that we're still yet to speak to
36:19Le Brie, but Sunderland have players
36:21to come back.
36:22Just thinking beyond the QPR game
36:23as well, Dan Ballard, Elisa Mienda,
36:26Josh on social media points out
36:28that Aleksic has been on the bench,
36:30but hasn't had a minute yet.
36:33Obviously, Abdoulaye,
36:34he's a little way off.
36:35Jenson Sealt to come back
36:36at some point.
36:37Adjie Elissie, Sam Ed as well.
36:40That's what's exciting in a way, Phil,
36:42isn't it, is that Sunderland
36:44are doing so well
36:44and are five points clear
36:46at the top of the championship.
36:47But there's quality to come back.
36:49Yes, they're likely going to pick up
36:51injuries and suspensions
36:52as time goes on.
36:53We have Job Hume and Chris Rigg
36:56on four yellow cards.
36:57So there is that to consider as well.
37:00But Sunderland's squad at the moment
37:01seems to be in a healthy position
37:02for the most part,
37:03with a little bit of a caveat
37:04that at full-back
37:05it's perhaps a little bare.
37:08Yeah, yeah, it's exciting
37:10as long as they all do
37:11come back fit and fire.
37:12And I know that sounds like a really
37:13obvious point, but I say that
37:15I say that specifically
37:18because I do think that
37:21it's not always easy for players
37:22to come back fit and fire
37:23when they haven't got
37:24the pre-season base.
37:26So I think we have to be patient
37:27with Ballard, for example,
37:28in this most pre-season.
37:30Alise, hopefully, will be
37:31slightly different
37:32because he had a really strong
37:33pre-season block.
37:34And I think his fitness
37:35should be really, really good.
37:36But players like Baveda, Samed,
37:39Abdullahi, Sealed,
37:41like they can definitely
37:43have an impact.
37:43I'm not saying they can't
37:44have an impact,
37:45but I think you've just got to be
37:46realistic about
37:47even the point in which
37:48they return to full training,
37:49they're still going to be some way off
37:51realistically competing
37:52for places in the starting 11
37:53because their base level
37:54of fitness and match fitness
37:55is not going to be anywhere near
37:57really most of the players
37:58who were sort of fit
37:59from day one of pre-season.
38:01So I have slightly mixed
38:02points on that one.
38:03I do think there's
38:04depth in the squad.
38:04I do think we can be excited
38:06about the players
38:06eventually coming back.
38:08But I also think you have to be
38:09a little bit realistic about
38:11some of those players
38:11we might not see the best of
38:13this season, like especially players
38:15like Abdullahi and Sealed.
38:18So I think we have to be
38:19a little bit cautious
38:19about that as well.
38:20And I do think that
38:22January is going to be
38:23an important month because
38:24although I think, you know,
38:25the depth in the squad
38:27in theory is quite good,
38:28I think January will be
38:29an opportunity to add some real
38:31like first team competition
38:34to the squad.
38:35I think that's going to be
38:35really important as well.
38:38Yeah, and just to finish off
38:40the podcast, Phil,
38:41obviously Sunderland are top.
38:44We've mentioned that
38:44several times now,
38:45but I never get bored of saying it.
38:48What should be our sort of
38:49minimum expectation
38:51for this side now
38:52and how excited should we get?
38:54Yes, it's only 12 games in,
38:55but Sunderland have come through
38:56a variety of different tests.
38:58You know, there's always the
39:00other teams in the championship
39:02that have bigger budgets
39:03and all of that sort of stuff.
39:04But, you know, how carried away
39:06should we be getting with
39:07this under-delivery at the moment?
39:10Well, I think we can definitely
39:12talk about Sunderland
39:13as a promotion contender now.
39:14I think we're far enough
39:15into the season
39:17to sort of have that view.
39:18I don't have any
39:21qualms sort of saying that,
39:22but I think it's important that
39:24I think one of the really
39:25powerful things
39:26about this early run
39:27is it doesn't feel like
39:28there's a huge amount
39:28of pressure on Sunderland.
39:29I think that's a huge positive.
39:31And I think that'll be
39:32a huge positive for Sunderland
39:33if it can keep going
39:34through the season.
39:35I think there'll be
39:35certain clubs in this division
39:36who are up there at the moment
39:37who expect to go up
39:39and every bad result
39:40is a real, like,
39:41pressure moment for them.
39:43And I think if Sunderland
39:44can avoid that,
39:44I think that's a really
39:45powerful thing.
39:46And if you're asking
39:47sort of expectation,
39:48I would say from this start,
39:50I think we should expect
39:51Sunderland to get into
39:51the playoffs.
39:52I think that's fair.
39:53I think that with the quality
39:55of players that they've got
39:56and the points
39:56that they've already accrued,
39:58I think they should be able
39:59to get into the top six.
40:00And I think that's a fair
40:02sort of expectation level.
40:03I'm still not sure
40:04it would be fair at this point
40:05to set automatic promotion
40:07as an expectation level.
40:09I don't think we should
40:09sort of fear it or rule it out.
40:11But I don't think it would be fair
40:12to say that Sunderland
40:13should do that.
40:14I still think you've got
40:15to be respectful
40:15of the relative squad sizes
40:17and budgets
40:17that they're competing with.
40:18But, you know,
40:20I would, from this point,
40:21I would hope and expect
40:22Sunderland to get into the top six.
40:24And I don't see any reason
40:25why they can't maintain
40:26this challenge for the top two.
40:28Yeah, I always say that
40:31if you come through the busy,
40:33festive period
40:34and you're still right up there,
40:35then it's time to get excited.
40:36I am very excited at the moment.
40:37Yeah, for sure.
40:38It's really nice that Sunderland
40:40is playing so well,
40:41but I think you've just got to get
40:42through that festive period for me.
40:44And that, you know,
40:45I'm not trying to sort of play down
40:47Sunderland's achievements
40:49this season.
40:50I'm as excited as anybody else.
40:52And I think we should get excited.
40:53I don't see any reason
40:56to sort of, you know,
40:57be glib or down about it.
41:00But yeah, I just think
41:01you've got to get to
41:02the other side of Christmas,
41:03personally, for me.
41:04I think if you remember
41:05that festive period last year,
41:06I know it was a totally
41:07different scenario
41:07because of the manager
41:08changing and stuff.
41:09But like,
41:10going back to the Rotherham game away
41:11where we lost Huddersfield away,
41:13it was a bad defeat.
41:14Those are the kind of games
41:16that, you know,
41:17when the games come thinking fast,
41:18like Robert Scott
41:19little injury around that time
41:20to me, and it really knocked the team.
41:22It was just like, I agree with you.
41:24I think if we're sitting here,
41:26if we're sitting here
41:26towards the back end of January
41:28and we're still talking about
41:29Sunderland in the top three or four,
41:31then it's time to get excited.
41:32Until then, I think
41:33you've just got to keep churning out
41:34as many points as you possibly can.
41:36And as I say, I think like
41:38one of the big things
41:39Sunderland's got at the moment
41:40is this sort of
41:40everything feels light.
41:41It doesn't feel like
41:42there's a huge amount of pressure
41:43on the team.
41:44And I think maintaining that
41:45for as long as possible
41:46is like a really sort of valuable weapon.
41:50No, it is.
41:50And don't get me wrong,
41:52I think Sunderland are better
41:53than the sides I'm going to mention.
41:55But just off the top of my head,
41:56from memory over the past,
41:58like two or three seasons,
42:00Reading were up there at one point,
42:01weren't they?
42:02QPR were up there.
42:03I think Preston were up there
42:05at one point as well.
42:06And they all sort of fell away.
42:08So we always have that
42:09in the back of our minds
42:10as Sunderland fans, don't we Phil?
42:12That things could go wrong.
42:13I guess it's that syndrome,
42:15you know, coming into the Oxford
42:16United game.
42:17We're all conditioned to think,
42:19oh, this will go wrong at some point,
42:20which doesn't necessarily mean it will.
42:22Yeah.
42:24No, of course not.
42:24But I think every fan
42:26of every football club would say that.
42:28I think that's just the reality
42:30of being a football fan.
42:31But I think we should feel confident
42:33about what Sunderland can do this season.
42:35I really do.
42:36I think you need luck.
42:37You know, you need your luck
42:38with injuries and what have you.
42:39I think that's true of every team
42:40in the division.
42:41But I feel quite confident
42:44about what this team can do.
42:45I just think it's important that,
42:46you know, if luck goes against them,
42:48if they get some injuries
42:49and like because of the depth,
42:51I don't think it's as strong
42:52in division this year
42:53as it was last year.
42:54But I still think like
42:55it would be no disgrace
42:57if you like, if Burnley finish above
42:58Sunderland on the table or whatever.
43:00And as long as we keep that perspective,
43:01then we can be really excited
43:03and really be really bullish.
43:05No, absolutely.
43:07Thanks for joining me, Phil.
43:09You can head over to the
43:09Sunderland Echo website.
43:10Phil will have updates from
43:12Sunderland's training session today,
43:14including any little injury updates
43:16that might throw up.
43:17There's also Lebrice's
43:18press conference on Thursday.
43:20I will have full coverage
43:21from Loftus Road at QPR on Saturday.
43:26Thank you for joining us
43:28on the RAW podcast,
43:29and we will see you next time.