Hull City win reaction as Sunderland go top of Championship after 10 games
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00:00Hello, welcome to the World Podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo. My name's James
00:25Copley and I'm joined by my colleague Phil Smith to dissect a Sunderland away win to
00:30Hull City in the Championship, taking us top of the Championship. But firstly, Phil, how
00:35are you getting on?
00:36Yeah, sorry, good, mate. Always nice when someone's top of the league, enjoying it while
00:41hopefully it lasts for a long time, but I'll enjoy and make the most of it, just in case.
00:46Yeah, it's not bad, is it? I think firstly, actually, just as an aside, would like to
00:51wish Marco Gabbiadini well, Phil. He's been posting on Twitter over the past couple of
00:55days about awaiting his heart operation. Couldn't get a bigger Sunderland legend and
00:59a voice we're all really familiar with over the years.
01:02Yeah, proper Sunderland legend. Whether you were lucky enough to see him banging in the
01:07goals for Sunderland, which we weren't, we've had to watch them all on YouTube. We're also
01:10like a big part of everyone's Sunderland life as well on Total Sport and I know he's had
01:15a really long wait, hasn't he? So it must have been a really difficult time for him
01:18waiting for surgery. So wish them all the best and everything crossed, it goes as planned.
01:24Yeah, absolutely. Echo those sentiments. Let's talk about the Hull City win, Phil.
01:28A good win in the end. I thought Sunderland sort of started well, but there were periods
01:33in the game where Hull looked OK as well. I do think, though, Phil, that that's potentially
01:38a game that Sunderland would have lost that season. I know that's not revealing any sort
01:42of great state secrets because Sunderland finished 16th last season and now the top
01:46of the championship. But with the addition of a quality centre-back and a really good forward,
01:51things look like they're on the up now.
01:55Yeah, I agree with that to an extent. I mean, the obvious thing to say is on Boxing Day
01:59last year, we won 1-0 away to Hull in a very similar game, thanks to a bit of Jack Clark
02:03magic. And I suppose you could probably argue that there wasn't a huge amount of difference
02:09in the performances. It was resolute, a little bit of individual magic to settle the game.
02:15So I agree with you. They certainly would have lost it in the last few months of last
02:18season. I don't think there's any doubt about that whatsoever. I think the most pleasing
02:24thing for me was the period from Isidore's brilliant goal up until full-time. I did a
02:30bit of analysis on this on the Sunderland Echo website yesterday. Hull only managed
02:33two shots inside Sunderland's box for the last half hour of the game while they were
02:37chasing it. And neither of those were on target. They were both headers from corners that went
02:41over the bar. I think it's a really, really impressive organisation, first and foremost
02:48from Sunderland, but also resilience, clearly. And I think that's off the back of the Watford
02:52and Plymouth games where we were like, obviously, don't panic because it's been a brilliant
02:55start to the season. But we just saw some signs that teams found ways to get at Sunderland.
02:59And that was maybe one slight little concern we had, that they were starting to concede
03:02a few chances in these games away from home. Sunday was a really strong return to form
03:07from a defensive side of the point of view, from an organisation point of view. So I think
03:12that's a big tick for La Brice and his players, that they've obviously made some adjustments
03:16and that they're learning a little bit as well. And I thought they were decent value
03:20for the win overall. I'm not saying it was a dominant performance, free-flowing, fluid,
03:25creating loads of chances, but they were resolute. I thought they dominated the ball in the first
03:29half. And yeah, they had some good moments in the game and they had the better chances
03:34in the latter stages of the game. So I think it's such a cliche, but I think it's an absolutely
03:40accurate one. It was such a good, solid away day performance. And I think, as I say, and
03:45especially after the last couple of away games, which were no disaster, but were a
03:49bit disappointing, really heartening to see them produce that kind of performance.
03:55I do understand the comparisons between last year at the MKM Stadium and this season as
04:01well. But for me, I think that game last season, I don't think Ceylon had as much control.
04:06I think Hull probably had a few more chances. And I remember actually thinking that Hull
04:10should have been a couple up. They were very, very wasteful in that game. I just think from
04:14then to now that Sunderland have progressed in terms of their game management, as you mentioned,
04:20Phil. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's true. I mean, it was interesting. I spoke to
04:25Trey Hulme after the game and Trey is a really, really good, straight talker. And he said,
04:30look, Hull crashed from off the crossbar moments before Isidore scores. And sometimes in the
04:35Championship, it is those fine margins, isn't it? But as I say, I do think Sunderland just
04:40about deserved the win. And the thing is, the encouraging thing about this season,
04:44Sunderland have been excellent at home and they're consistently choking up strong points returns.
04:48Now, if you do that and you go away from home and you're keeping things tight,
04:51some games you might draw, some games the opposition might score one goal and you lose
04:54narrowly. Some games you'll come on the right side like you do on Sunday. If Sunderland can,
04:59as they mostly have this season, with the exception of the last couple of games,
05:01produce really resilient, solid away performances and keep impressing at home,
05:06they're going to be in the top six. They are. So yeah, I agree with you. No one's coming away
05:12sort of ecstatic or getting carried away or saying what a team this is. But I think there's
05:17some really, really, really good signs over the long 46-game season. That's the thing. It's a
05:23slog. We all know that. It's a marathon. It's a churn. We've talked a lot about we have all,
05:28I think, have some reservations about the squad depth and about possible fatigue at the moment.
05:33But the consistency of performances is pretty impressive.
05:37Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned that shot that crashed against the bar, Phil,
05:40but particularly in the second half, I don't really remember Anthony Patterson
05:45having too many saves to make. It was resolute, as you say.
05:49Yeah, Hull were on top for the first 10 minutes of the second half. It wasn't one of those where
05:57Sunderland were letting them have the ball and there was never any danger. I think Sunderland
06:00were struggling a little bit. Obviously, the goal from Hull's corner came at an amazing time
06:05because it nipped that in the bud. But yeah, for 80 minutes of the game,
06:08Sunderland had pretty good defensive control. Anthony Patterson was pretty much totally unworked
06:12and away from home against a side who maybe they're not as strong as last season. Well,
06:16they're definitely not as strong as last season, but still is pretty stacked. You've got Liam
06:20Miller coming off the bench. He's someone that I think if Sunderland had signed this summer,
06:23we'd have all been caught in a hoop, really. And credit again to Trey Hulme, actually,
06:27because he'll have had some tired legs after international duty and he was really good
06:30against Miller. But my point being, against a side, you expect to create a lot of chances.
06:35I think Sunderland came out with a lot of credit in that one. I'm sure we'll go on to,
06:39and there was really good performances all over the pitch, but we have to shout out Chris Metham.
06:43Did he get away with a pretty blatant handball on the stroke at half-time? If we're honest,
06:47yes, he probably did. But that was as good as a centre-half display, as I've seen from a player
06:52in a while. You know, Sunderland obviously take a big risk, don't they? They mark man for man all
06:56over the pitch. And especially against a side with Hull's pace, you know, that is really risky
07:04and it relies on your two centre-halves making consistently good decisions and being in the
07:08right place. I thought Metham was so good. I love watching him play. There's no nonsense element to
07:15him. He wins his headers, he wins his challenges, but he's quite a graceful defender as well. He
07:22seems to make everything look quite easy. He reminds me a little bit of Johnny Evans,
07:27is the one that comes to my mind. He's not like a ball-playing centre-half who can't get stuck in.
07:33He has got that side of his game, but there is something really graceful about the way he defends
07:36as well. It is an art, isn't it? We always talk about the creative players, the playmakers,
07:41and I love those as much as anyone, but to see a really graceful defender like that is a real treat.
07:47I think we have to give huge credit to Christian Speighton and the Sunderland recruitment team,
07:51because from the position where they obviously discovered that Adria Lisse was out for a while,
07:56Metham was already in talks with the Championship clubs. I think to be aggressive and ambitious
08:01and to go and get that deal done, I think could be a huge, huge moment in Sunderland's season.
08:08We have sat on here and criticised a lot of decisions and rightly so. I think we have to
08:12do it the other way around when they absolutely nail one and I think it's fair to say they've
08:16done that with Chris Metham. I think for me the most impressive thing about Metham
08:21on Sunday was his positioning that I thought was absolutely magnificent. As you say, he's
08:27graceful on the ball, he can pass, but it was just the know-how, the mouse, the anticipation
08:33when Hull, who, as you say, have some pretty pacey forwards, looked to be breaking. He made
08:39it look so simple, he stuck a foot in, he was in the right place and that was the attack thwarted.
08:44He did that two or three times in the first half and I wouldn't say it was like last ditch,
08:48but it was so crucial in the sense that a couple of passes later Hull could have been in.
08:54Yeah, definitely and although we rightly said that Hull didn't really work Patterson in the
08:58first half, you're absolutely right in what you say there. They didn't work Patterson,
09:01but there were moments, like you say, where they were one or two passes away from a big,
09:05big chance on the break and Metham made some. There was one tackle, it was over towards the
09:11left-back area where, exactly like you say, it wasn't last ditch and there was a lot of space
09:16to goal and stuff, but having said that, if Metham doesn't make the challenge, you're not
09:20far off a one-on-one. He just slid in, took the ball, it was just tremendous to watch and that
09:25is really important because if someone wants to be the team that they say they want to be,
09:30which is quite high-pressing, taking big risks, marking man for man, you need players who are
09:35consistently winning duels and Metham did that. I thought the other player who I would probably
09:41want to shout out individually, just in the context of what we've talked about all season,
09:44I thought Dan Neil had his best game of the season. I thought on that side of things, again,
09:51I think sometimes I feel a little bit for him because of the man-for-man marking system.
09:57He sometimes gets left pretty isolated on the break and it is so going to go, it's like a
10:03coin toss, isn't it? And sometimes I feel like he quite harshly gets picked out because he's
10:07been left in a difficult position. On Sunday, there were four or five occasions where he made
10:12really good interceptions or tackles to snuff out a counter and I thought on the ball he was
10:16really good. Summons' best chance of the first half was an Isidore shot because Neil spun away
10:20and drove into the box. Played some lovely little almost like pitch-and-wedge passes
10:24out of Roberts on the right that if Roberts had had one of his better games, he might have
10:28yielded something. I thought it was a really classy, elegant performance from him as well,
10:34with the right level of bite in it as well. So, I thought given the conversations...
10:38Technically an assist as well.
10:40Yeah, well, yeah. And listen, he's won his duel, hasn't he? Sunderland had prepped for that short
10:45corner. Neil did what he was supposed to do. He closed the space, picked the right moment, didn't
10:49foul, didn't jump in. And yeah, I mean, it's one of the strangest assists...
10:55There's a lot to do, Mike. There's a lot to do.
10:56There's a lot to do. Listen, it's one of the strangest assists he'll ever get,
10:59but it doesn't change the fact that he makes an important challenge, you know,
11:02and that's what he's there to do. So, I just thought in the context of the sort of discussions
11:05we've been having over the last month, really, I thought it was worth shouting out that,
11:09you know, it's... OK, he's not been at his absolute best so far this season,
11:12but we're talking about a really classy player with a lot of potential and a lot of already
11:18quality. And I thought he was a big, big part of the win.
11:22No, I think it's always particularly important to shout players like that out when they've
11:27gone through that little dip. It's only fair, isn't it? You've got to be sort of balanced
11:30about these things. And when recognising that perhaps they have been a little bit under par,
11:35that when they return to the level and do good things, it's only right that that's shouted out.
11:39I want to just go backwards slightly, Phil, to a couple of the decisions. We'll talk about
11:44Sunderland's goal in five or ten minutes, but the Chris Mepham handball, what was your view on that?
11:49At the time, I thought it was in the box and Sunderland had been really, really fortunate.
11:54I then watched it back and took to social media and it was definitely outside of the box,
11:59sort of right on the stroke of half-time. My gut sort of feeling that would have been a yellow,
12:04had the referee spotted it. But there's an argument from the whole side that it would
12:09have been a clear goal scorer and opportunity. So I do actually think that Sunderland have been
12:13slightly fortunate there and perhaps we should acknowledge that.
12:17Yeah, I think they were fortunate. I'm not sure it's like a clear red card.
12:21I haven't seen enough replays back to be sure. Apologies. I don't think it's absolutely obvious
12:28that if Mepham doesn't handle it, it's going to run for the striker who then buries it.
12:33There is quite a lot of pace on the ball. Patterson's there. I'm not absolutely convinced
12:37that it's a definite red card. However, is it a handball? I think it almost certainly is.
12:42Are you then in a pretty dangerous spot once that foul gets given? I think you probably are.
12:47So I'm not convinced it was like a clear red card, but it was clearly, I think, a mistake.
12:53I have a lot more sympathy with Hull for that decision than I do for the sort of short corner
12:59for Argo. I totally accept that the referee's position wasn't great. It wasn't great all game.
13:05It was twice he got in Dan Neal's way. One, he actually full-on bumped into him and he had to
13:09stop the game. The other, not quite. So I fully accept that the referee's position wasn't great.
13:14I can fully understand that the Hull player would have got the ball earlier if he wasn't there and
13:18that would have been better. I accept all that, but I think Hull need to do a bit of reflection
13:24because even though the player is potentially impeded early on by the referee, there is time
13:30and space for him not to turn into trouble, not to take an additional touch to invite the pressure
13:35from Neal. And quite frankly, if you're in a defensive setup where you have one defender,
13:40where Cody Drama was pretty much on the edge of the Sunderland box, and you leave
13:44acres of space behind and take a short corner, that is an incredible risk to take. And
13:50Sheffield United did it to them twice earlier in the season, in the same game.
13:54So I think Sunderland are prepared for that. Sunderland are prepared for that setup. They
13:59thought there was an opportunity there and they punished them for it. So while I do kind of get
14:02the frustration because a couple of times he bumped into Dan Neal, I was like tearing my
14:07hair out because Neal was in a good position. So I do understand that. But I think from Hull's
14:12perspective, I would be concerned if that was my team and they were blaming the referee because I
14:16would be saying this is the third time it's happened to us this season. But we have to
14:21shout out Isidore because we knew he was quick, but we didn't know he was that quick. Like Cody
14:26Drama is not slow. And to sort of burn him initially for pace. But the thing for me is
14:33it's the initial pace to get away. But as you would expect, Isidore's got the ball,
14:38so Drama is able to get back in and it looks like he's got in the right position to defend it.
14:43And then it's that little flick to roll away from him. And then the chip. It is so good.
14:50Like it is such an unbelievable individual goal. And I, listen, I just think like I actually,
14:57I was sat next to Scott Wilson from the Northern Echo for that game. And we both said like,
15:04it's unbelievable to be in a position where Isidore didn't have a great game on Saturday.
15:07He worked on Sunday. He worked hard, but he didn't have like loads of chances. He wasn't
15:11doing loads of amazing things in the game. We were like, this is kind of unbelievable to have
15:16someone in a position where they have a striker who might not do a huge amount in the game,
15:19but just scores goals. And like, yeah, that was a real Ross Stewart-esque goal that,
15:26and we said that a few times, haven't we? And, you know, Connolly came on and I thought looked
15:32good, like did the job he needed to do. He bought clever little fouls. He slowed the game down.
15:37You know, sometime this week, maybe next week, Meander comes back into the fold.
15:41You know, like it's a little bit like, hang on, have we solved the striker situation a little
15:46bit here? Because you don't need someone to score. You don't need someone to score 20 goals.
15:50It's amazing if you get someone who does do that. What we said last season is you need,
15:54you know, a couple of players to score eight or 10 goals. That's fine. And I now am quietly
16:00confident that Sunder are going to be able to do that. And it's a bit of a game changer really.
16:05Yeah. Yeah. Just to go back to the Bobby Madley thing, I think when you do watch it back,
16:10it's frustrating from an opposition point of view because he does definitely get in the way,
16:13but Hull have so many opportunities not to turn into danger for one. Obviously,
16:18they've only got the one man back, as you say. It's frustrating. As you mentioned,
16:21I was frustrated when it happened to Dan Neil. Had Sunder conceded off that, I would have been,
16:26I think, a little miffed because Sunder would have conceded, but there would have been so much
16:29that would have had to have happened for that goal to have gone in. The Isidor goal though,
16:34it just reminded me so much of that Sheffield Wednesday playoff goal at the Stadium of Light
16:39in terms of the pace. The pace over about 10 yards was phenomenal in a sense that he didn't
16:45actually look like he was anywhere near the defender or the ball. And then in a flash,
16:49he's in front of them. He's got the wherewithal to, you know, his first two touches when you watch
16:55them, you might think they're heavy, but they're actually perfect in a sense that he gives himself
16:59enough time to maintain the pace, collect the ball again. And as you rightly point out,
17:05drama looked like he'd come back into a position to stop it, but then it was
17:09that wherewithal to beat him again. And then the actual finish to chip over the keeper is really
17:16good. And, you know, he mentioned I was talking at the Stadium of Light with Isidor and a couple
17:22of the new signings, I think earlier this month or possibly even last month now. And his idol is
17:29Thierry Henry and that was like Thierry Henry-esque in a sense, just the pace, the power. I'm not
17:35trying to build him up too much, but it was just like... I'm not trying to build him up too much,
17:39but he's basically Thierry Henry, yeah. Yeah, he's a Thierry Henry regen and we're going to win the
17:44league with 103 points. But I just thought like, in terms of, just in terms of his character as
17:49well, forget about his performance, but like I don't think I've ever wanted a Sunderland player
17:53to come in and do as well, because like from moment one he was just saying all the right
17:58things. And yeah, I think he's probably playing up to us a little bit and he obviously knows what
18:03he's doing, but he's such a bubbly, vibrant character in the conversation that I had with
18:07him after a game recently. And from that talking as well, you know, he's quite funny, he's quite
18:13bubbly, he's energetic, he looks like a good character to have around. So I'm actually like
18:16delighted on a personal level that he's done so well. And as you say, it's just nice to have a
18:21striker scoring goals, a striker that we actually thought was a left winger and probably still
18:25can't play on the left wing, we'll just have to accept it in person now. It's just like Henry,
18:30he is Thierry Henry. I think it's a really good point you make about the personality and stuff,
18:37and I think he's just really vibrant, really bubbly, really upbeat. I think you're probably
18:43right when you say he is probably quite canny. He made a comment in that talking, didn't he,
18:49about Sunderland being the biggest club in the North East, which he then repeated in his first
18:53interview with you. He knows what he's doing. But the one thing I would say as well is like,
19:00we saw last season that the Sunderland number nine shirt, if you like, the Sunderland striker
19:05role, can be quite a heavy one. There's a lot of scrutiny, there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot
19:10of debate. And I think the fact that he's got that side of his character is really, really positive.
19:17And he strikes me as someone who can sort of wear that heavy shirt, if you like, and thrive in it.
19:22So although, you know, you can have a little bit of a right smile sometimes, I think it's actually
19:29a positive quality in what isn't always an easy position to play in. And the one thing I would
19:33say is he might be canny about some of the things he says, but I think you certainly got this
19:37impression from talking to him. I think he has really bought into the history of the club and he
19:40is really bought into this sense of like, I'm playing for this like huge historic club. And I
19:47want to be part of like, its chapter and getting back to where it belongs. I think he's in that
19:51sense, I think he's completely genuine. I think he's really bought into that like, idea, if you
19:56like. And yeah, I think there's cult hero potential there. I think like, definitely.
20:02Well, the guy's posted pictures of Brian Clough on his Instagram story. So I'm in, I'm sold.
20:07Like, he's my favourite player for life now. Yeah, it's little stuff like that. And I think
20:13that stuff's genuine. I think like putting himself in there. And I think he genuinely sees himself as
20:18being part of this like, really kind of like, proud tradition, you know, playing up front for
20:22Sunderland and stuff. And I think that's really, really, really nice. And yeah, I think it's
20:26exciting. And I think we have to give like, again, we spoke about, you know, credit for the recruitment
20:31for Mepham, credit to the recruitment team for spotting Isidore, because that looks like it could
20:34be a really good deal. In that particular one, I think probably quite a bit of credit
20:39has to go to Labriece, because I think he knew quite a bit about Isidore from his youth days.
20:43I think he was quite an important part of the process in terms of speaking to Isidore,
20:46explaining the project to him and stuff as well. So I think that's a, it's definitely a win for
20:51Sunderland's recruitment team for getting it done and spotting it. But I definitely think
20:55that's a little tick goes alongside Labriece for that one, because that looks like he's spotted
21:00and pushed over the line a really, really good recruitment opportunity.
21:04I think a very small anecdote that comes to mind about Wilson Isidore as well was earlier on in
21:08the season when he just signed, he was playing for the under-31s. I think he played two or three
21:12times up at Ebbleton and just his general attitude was superb. You could tell he wanted to be there.
21:18There's occasions over the years, and I'm not going to name any names, but I've seen
21:22senior players drop down for fitness or whatever reason, and they don't want to be there. They
21:26want to get out of there straight away. It's cold. It's dark. You know, the pitch is tight.
21:31You're getting hammered all over the pitch because you're a first-team player and young
21:34players want to make a name. But his application was actually first class, and he stayed behind
21:40with the fans for quite a while, getting photographs and autographs. And I thought it
21:44was lovely as well that his young child and his wife were in the stand watching him at Ebbleton
21:49as well. So that's not a senior game. It's an under-21 game. But yeah, as you say, he really,
21:54really seems to have bought it. What is, Phil, the situation surrounding his transfer? Because
22:01amongst all of the hype, he is on a season-long loan, isn't he? Are we expecting that to be made
22:05permanent in the summer? I mean, I'm guessing Sunder would like to. He's got three and four
22:09starts now. Yeah. Well, there's a little bit of a grey area in terms of... So obviously,
22:15Sunder's Amsterdam is a loan with an option to buy. So I understand there's like an agreed fee
22:21where Isidore, where someone can activate it. And in one sense, Isidore wants to stay.
22:28The only thing is that summer's a long, long way away. We all know that. But I think the
22:34mechanism is there to do it. Zenit initially announced it as a loan with an obligation to buy,
22:39rather than an option. And when I asked for clarification on that, the sort of word that
22:43I got back is there is a scenario based on performances where it automatically is activated.
22:51Now, that could be a personal target, it could be goals, or probably more likely as if someone
22:58gets promoted, I would imagine that's the more likely mechanism. I think that was what happened
23:02with... Well, it was what happened with Leon Diacki, people will remember his deal was automatically...
23:06I don't know. For a fact, that part of it is me speculating. That seems like the most likely
23:10thing, the most likely mechanism. So yeah, it's an option to buy. It could become an
23:16obligation to buy depending on some kind of performance factor. So I think there's reasons
23:22to be optimistic. The only thing that I don't have the answer to this, I'm just sort of putting it
23:28out there as I think worth pointing out. I'm not entirely sure what the mechanisms are about dealing
23:33with Russian clubs for permanent transfers at the moment. I would hope and assume that someone
23:38kind of across that because they did the loan with an option to buy. So I'm sure that's something
23:42to consider. But it's obviously one to watch. But I think, yeah, there are definitely sort of
23:48mechanisms in place there to make that deal happen. And obviously, the big positive is at the
23:52moment, Isidoro does not want to be anywhere else. And the fact that there's an agreed fee,
24:00obviously lessens the chances of other teams being able to come in and gazoom Sunderland as well. So
24:04I think there's reasons to be optimistic on that one with the obvious caveat
24:07that the summer is a long, long way away. Let's go back to Chris Mepham as well,
24:12just on that sort of transfer contract thing. What's his situation? Phil, obviously, I think
24:17he's got a year left on his deal, but Bournemouth have the option. So there's a scenario where they
24:21might like to trigger that because, I mean, he's 26 and he cost 12 million quid not long ago.
24:26So you'd imagine they'd want something back, especially if he's performing well in the championship.
24:32Yeah, and even if they activated front of the air and loan them out again, they would get a loan fee
24:36for him that would be fairly lucrative and they'll recoup some of their money back that way. So
24:40I'd be absolutely staggered if they let him go on a free. I just don't see a world in which that happens.
24:46I think with Mepham, I think you'd have to be fairly realistic and if he keeps performing
24:53at this level for the rest of the season, there are definitely going to be teams coming down from
24:58the Premier League and the championship who are going to want to sign him. There may even be teams
25:02towards the bottom of the Premier League who want to sign him. It is not totally beyond the realm
25:07of possibility that Bournemouth look at it and go, well, you know, you weren't in our team, but you've
25:11gone away and played week in, week out and you've been outstanding. We want you to be part of our squad.
25:15I don't think that's like totally beyond the realms of possibility at all. So I think we have to be
25:20fairly cautious on that one. The best thing that Sunderland could do would be to go and win
25:26promotion and then he's got one year left on his deal at Bournemouth probably and Sunderland have
25:31a nice little pot of cash that they've just got from promotion and they can probably sign him and
25:35sign Isidore and sign the next Thierry Henry and then we're all flying. But yeah, I think
25:41Mepham's the one where you kind of think maybe we have to have a bit of realism about that one
25:46because if he's playing as well as he is now, there will be like a long pile of clubs willing to,
25:52I would suspect, chuck a fairly significant fee at Bournemouth for him because he's still young.
25:57That's the thing about Mepham. In our Sunderland terms, it's like here's this veteran grizzled
26:02centre-half coming in. He's like 26. He's got years ahead of him. So there would definitely
26:08be interest for sure. Yeah, let's move on to the Luton Town game, Phil, obviously coming
26:14tomorrow at Kenilworth Road. I feel like we ask this question most podcasts, but can you envisage
26:21Regis Libéry making any changes? My only thought is that Sunderland obviously play Oxford at the
26:27stadium on Saturday as well. So that will make it three games in seven days. You'd expect some
26:33changes at some point. Perhaps he'll utilise his substitutes bench earlier. My worry is just
26:39particularly around that midfield, but Sunderland do have some options there. Yeah, it's always weird
26:44on this because I'm minded to agree with you, but I'm minded of Sunderland's last three-game week,
26:51which was the Derby in Leeds. Was it Plymouth or Watford at the start of that week?
26:57Watford, I think. Wasn't it Watford-Derby-Leeds? 20th of September, 1st of October.
27:05Yeah, yeah. In one of the press conferences that week, I said to Libéry, it's like three games,
27:10six days, didn't rotate, fresh legs. And he was just like, no, it's fine. I was like, all right,
27:18so yeah, I think what we've learned about him is that if he can keep it the same,
27:23he absolutely will. He seems to really value consistency, stability of selection,
27:28giving players the chance to develop chemistry with each other on the pitch.
27:31And I'm tempted to think he'll just go again. I think the one that we're all looking at,
27:36at some point, we're all expecting Brown to come in for Rigg at some point, just to give him a
27:40breather. Well, Libéry just doesn't, Rigg just keeps going, doesn't he? And he's not having a
27:45bad game. He has some games where he's slightly quieter than other games, but he hasn't had a bad
27:49game yet. So I'm tempted to think he'll probably keep the same team. He'll probably make two subs
27:56at about 70 minutes and that'll probably be it. I'm starting to wonder if that's just the way
28:00Libéry operates. So it will be interesting. I think tomorrow, I think because of the calibre
28:06of Luton and stuff, I think he'll want to keep it the same. Maybe then on Saturday,
28:10will he then feel, OK, I might have some tired legs in this position? Maybe I'll mix it up a
28:15little bit. I do think for all, I think certainly I don't think he'll change it tomorrow night.
28:20I do think the interest from moving forward is that I think if Connolly is fit and firing,
28:25I do think he still will play out wide at some point. I think that's a really nice rotation
28:29option where, and that's no knock on, I think Mundell and Roberts have been exceptional this
28:33season and there's no way either of them is dropping out of the team anytime soon. But at
28:37some point, I think you've got a really nice opportunity there to say to Mundell,
28:41you know what, we're going to mix it up today. You've been brilliant, but we're going to bring
28:44you on after 60 minutes up against a tired defender. Just give you a bit of a rest and
28:49Isidor can play off the left Connolly through the middle. I think Connolly, fingers crossed,
28:53it pays off because if he keeps performing as he did on Sunday, which I thought was a really
28:58cunning little cameo, it makes a big difference because it really increases Libéry's options,
29:02both from the start and from the bench. I think that is important because while I'm starting to
29:07accept now that he's just not a big rotation guy, I do have some concerns over the squad depth at
29:13the moment just because of all the injuries. And so bringing it, getting Connolly, the knock-on
29:18effect of having a fit Connolly is really, really important just in terms of all the other positions
29:22and being able to freshen it up a bit. One of the key selection talking points that I've read
29:30online just through various group chats and The Echo put a tweet out as well was actually the
29:34status of Patrick Roberts, which surprised me a little bit because I think Patrick Roberts has
29:38been fairly productive this season. In fact, very productive this season. I don't know off the top
29:43of my head how many assists he's got, probably two or three, but his actions in leading up towards
29:47goals as well have been superb. We've talked about it multiple times on this podcast, the pre-assist
29:53and the pre-pre-assist and all of that. He's been good. I did think he was a little bit below par
29:58against Hull City, perhaps didn't release the ball as early as he usually does. But for me,
30:05I don't see him dropping out and I wouldn't make that change either at the moment against Luton.
30:09Yes, some of them do have a couple of options. Tommy Watson can play off the right. We're hoping
30:13to see him a little bit more at some point. But for me, that's just not a change that I would
30:18consider making yet. Fair enough if he's fatigued in a couple of games or perhaps against Oxford,
30:23you look at it again. But if you're playing Luton Town away from home, who've been relegated from
30:28the Premier League on a Wednesday night, I want Patrick Roberts on there on the right-hand side,
30:31to be honest. Yes, 100 per cent. I don't see a world in which he doesn't play tomorrow.
30:37He's been absolutely brilliant this season. He's arguably been Sunderland's most impactful
30:41player in terms of, as you mentioned, the amount of goals he's been involved in.
30:46Yes, just not for me. Roberts plays like he had one game where he was slightly under par. It wasn't
30:51as if he stunk the place, that was he. He was just not quite as sharp on the ball as he's been in
30:55the previous games. Absolutely not for me. Roberts plays, absolutely no debate whatsoever for me.
31:03Yes, and ahead of Luton, Phil, I know you're due to speak to Reduce Debris later on today,
31:08so you'll have a little bit more information. But I can't imagine things have changed too heavily
31:13from the last time you spoke to him. Where are we in terms of injuries and fitness? Obviously,
31:17you know, the two key ones would be Dan Ballard, Eliezer Maienda,
31:20Adji Alissi and a couple of others a bit further away, aren't they?
31:24Yes, I think Ballard and Maienda, I'd be surprised if they made it back tomorrow night. I just don't
31:30think there's a huge need to risk them. They weren't fit on Sunday. I think Wednesday's a
31:34really tight turnaround, so maybe they'd be back in the squad. I don't think they'd be in
31:39contention at the start, personally. Saturday, we might see them. They'll certainly be fit for the
31:44QPR game next Saturday. Other than that, I don't expect to see anyone before the November
31:51international break, to be honest. Pervede, there's an outside chance he would be back
31:56just before the international break. But given how stop-start he's been, given how well Tommy
32:00Watson's doing, I think they'll probably take the view that it would be better for him to have that
32:04international break to really get to work on building his fitness and getting really robust
32:08and ready. Sam Erds, you know, Lebris has said that he doesn't really expect him to be in
32:12contention until after the November international break. Same with Alisa. So, yeah, I think Ballard
32:17and Miendo are sort of the two to watch there. The only two I envisage being back any time soon.
32:22I guess at this stage, as you say, we'll know a bit more later on, but I would imagine it's
32:25pretty much we go again tomorrow at Luton and then take stock again ahead of Oxford on Saturday.
32:32And not in terms of Luton and Oxford, but just in terms of the season generally,
32:37Lebris had a little bit to say about Niall Huggins as well, who's a player we all
32:40really, really like. He's extremely talented, but has really suffered from injury problems and
32:44it looks like it's going to be a fair while, doesn't it, until he gets back on the grass,
32:48which is expected, but no less unfortunate. Yeah, I just think we don't know about that one,
32:56to be honest. I know quite a lot was made about him potentially being out for the rest of the
32:59season. Obviously, I was there when Lebris was talking about it. The point Lebris was making
33:03is that the latter stages of his rehab are going to be really, really unpredictable.
33:07And obviously, because of his injury record, they're not going to rush him. So, there is a
33:11scenario that he doesn't play again this season. That's not the definite plan. There's a chance he
33:17features a little bit before then. So, that's one where we'll just know better in a few months,
33:23really, I think, because of the seriousness of the injury and the severity of it. I think it's
33:27one where you've just got to sort of see how it goes, really, to an extent. So, to be honest,
33:32that's not a shock to Sunderland. Sunderland were never planning to have Huggins as a big
33:36player this season. It was always the case that if he was back for a few months towards the end
33:41of it, that would be a very welcome bonus. But I don't think at any stage in their preparation
33:45to the season, their squad building and squad planning, if they've been looking at going,
33:48we're going to get 20 games out without Huggins. So, I don't think that's any shock to anyone at
33:53Sunderland, really. So, yeah, I think that he is someone I don't think we'll see much of this
33:58season. Hopefully Sealt will see more of. Sealt should be able to be back in full training around
34:04January. So, theoretically, you could, you know, if we say he needs two 321s games, maybe,
34:09let's say, you know, hopefully Touchwood is fit to play and be in contention at the start of
34:15February, then you'll maybe get a solid sort of three-month block where he'll be available as a
34:20kind of versatile defender. So, yeah, but I think, and certainly in the short term,
34:24there's only really Ballard in the end to keep an eye on for now.
34:28Do you think Sealt's potential availability in February would change Sunderland's strategy in
34:35January? Just thinking that, you know, common consensus would be that Sunderland are weakest
34:40in the full-back areas, given the injuries mentioned. You would expect them to maybe try
34:45and address that in January, depending on what else is going on. Do you think Sealt coming back
34:53might sort of make them think again? Because, obviously, he can play right back and, you know,
34:57there's a few different options. Luke O'Neill could potentially play right back or left back,
35:01could go to a back five or a back three, however you want to term it. What is your
35:05prediction for that January period in terms of full-back, Phil? Yeah, right now, the noises
35:12that Lebris and Spieten have made around Sportington about it would suggest that they're
35:16fairly relaxed about that and I think Sealt, I don't think they would not assign someone because
35:20of Sealt because I think that's a big risk to take with someone who's had any injury of his
35:24severity. But I think it does feed into the impression that they've given and we've talked
35:29about this with Hulme being on four yellow cards and what that might do if he gets suspended.
35:33Lebris is pretty strongly hinting that he would just go to a back three because, obviously,
35:37I know he's not fit at the moment but Ballard will be fit soon. I get the idea that maybe
35:41on a nine he'll play sort of a bit of a hybrid, right at the back three, right back kind of role.
35:47So, I think they seem fairly relaxed and I think we would see a formation change
35:50if Hulme, for whatever reason, wasn't available. But, obviously, January is a long way away. If
35:57Hulme was to pick up an injury then I don't think they would have any choice, to be honest,
36:00to go and recruit. So, they seem to be more relaxed about it than we are as people watching
36:04Sunderland is probably how I would best describe it. So, I don't think they're kind of rushing out
36:09to go and sign somebody but it is quite a long way away. Obviously, injuries are going to be
36:13a big thing. Again, if Alise makes his comeback, as we hope he will, then he'll be fit and firing by
36:19January and, again, that's another centre-half where moving to a back five becomes a lot easier
36:24because you've got another strong centre-half option. So, I think there's a few variables in
36:28that one at the moment. Two very quick points we'll run through before the end of the podcast
36:33but I just wanted to get your thoughts, Phil, you mentioned about Sunderland having defensive
36:39reinforcements coming back in Ballard and Alise at some point. Given what we've seen, because we've
36:44actually seen a fair amount of the four of them now, what would you say would be Sunderland's
36:49strongest centre-back pairing? It's really difficult because Alise, his last couple of
36:58games before we got injured, was seriously good. Not just like, oh, he was genuinely really good.
37:04I think, from what we've seen this season, I would say Mepham and 0-9. I think it's a tricky
37:10one because I think with Ballard, we haven't seen the best of him yet just because he didn't really
37:13have a pre-season because of his injury and I do feel like he's been searching for a bit of
37:18rhythm when he's played. So, it feels almost harsh because you feel like you're marking him down
37:24almost when the reality is he just hasn't had that rhythm. I think a fully fit Ballard, we saw
37:29West Brom away last season as a great example of he's one of the best in the division.
37:34So, I think when he's fully fit, it's hard to not have him in the team. Is there an argument that a
37:38fully fit Ballard and Mepham covers all bases and his 0-9 has been amazing all season. 0-9 is the
37:46constant guy, isn't he? He's the one that's been there and I think his levels have improved again
37:51this season. So, I think a lot of fans would look at him and go, as I have done in the past,
37:57yeah, Ballard and Mepham are sometimes two best defenders but in terms of advance of the ball,
38:02he actually went on a couple of little adventures against Hull. He's quite good in an attacking
38:08sense. So, I'd find it hard to drop 0-9 with everybody fit. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree totally.
38:13His distribution is clearly the best if someone sent it to us and I think the availability thing,
38:19it is relevant. One of the best attributes for a footballer is availability. 0-9 is never
38:24unavailable apart from the odd suspension and that's a big tick in his box, 100%.
38:31So, yeah, I think the reality is that will we have a situation this season where all four are
38:37fully fit available and we're having this discussion? We might never have that point.
38:41That's the whole point of having death, isn't it? So, yeah, I lean towards Mepham and 0-9 at
38:48the moment but if Ballard can get over this ankle injury, then that makes it very difficult.
38:55So, yeah, it's going to be a really interesting one to watch. But for now,
38:57I'm not looking at Gorm being like, oh, Ballard when he's fit comes back in the team. I don't
39:01think it's that simple anymore. No, I don't. It is a nice problem to have or a nice situation to
39:07have that Dan Ballard, who was widely regarded as the best centre-back at the club and one of the
39:12best centre-backs in the league last season as essentially your first backup for the time being
39:17when it comes back from injury. I don't think any of us would have foreseen that. The last one,
39:21I just wanted to touch on Phil again. You mentioned his cameo but Aaron Connolly as well.
39:27I think we're all starting to see now that that could be a really shrewd bit of business because
39:31if he can hit the heights that he did briefly in the Premier League, that could be a really
39:37smart sign. He's taken steps towards coming out and speaking about his problems, which is a hugely,
39:44hugely brave step in the climate that we're all in with social media. I have the utmost
39:49admiration for him for that. It looks like he's on a really good path at the moment.
39:54For the under-21s, he's looked very good by all accounts. His application has been superb.
39:59I thought his cameo against Hull was really impressive. He's a quality player and it's
40:04exciting to have that depth up front as well, as you mentioned earlier.
40:08He just thought it was a really selfless performance when he came on. He wasn't coming
40:12on thinking, I'm going to beat seven players. I'm going to try and bang it in the back of the net.
40:16He recognised what the game called for with someone kind of seeing it out,
40:20won little fouls, held it up. It was really encouraging. Lebrie said that after the game
40:26to us. He said, I've no doubt he's going to be a goal scorer for us, but that wasn't really
40:32what the game demanded. He did what the team needed him to do and that was really encouraging.
40:35I think the main thing about Connolly is you never know how these things are going to work
40:39out on the pitch. Football can be an odd game and things can change very quickly. But the one thing
40:44that's very obvious from his Under-21s appearances, from what people are saying about training and
40:49what we saw on Sunday, is that he's very, very fit. I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever
40:53about his conditioning and his athleticism. That's a great starting point for him. I'm
41:00starting to think that it's maybe been a brilliant decision from all parties to do that.
41:07We're obviously not getting carried away after 20 minutes of football, but I think one of those,
41:12when it was first happening, we were all a bit like, not sure about that. How's that going to go?
41:19I feel very differently about it now, a few weeks on. I can certainly see when Connolly has first
41:25come in and they've seen his conditioning and they've seen the knickies in while they've gone,
41:29hang on, there's a real opportunity here. He might not be the Aaron Connolly of the last
41:34couple of seasons, if you like. I'm excited about that, but obviously it's very early days.
41:40We'll round off there, Phil, but firstly, what have you got coming today? Obviously,
41:43you're at La Brisa's press conference in a couple of hours.
41:48Yes, so just all your pre-Luton updates, really, and then we'll be back tomorrow evening with all
41:53our usual coverage and we'll be over on YouTube, won't we, later in the week at some point with
41:58some more Luton review and Oxford preview and stuff. It's a busy week, to be fair, so
42:03keep your eyes peeled on the website. We'll have all sorts.
42:07Yes, as Phil mentioned, sunlundecho.com for all of the latest Luton updates. After that as well,
42:12you can get all of the pre-Oxford United content. We are on YouTube, all podcast platforms,
42:18and over on the website too. Thanks, Phil, for joining us and thanks to the listener for tuning
42:23in.