Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by Tonbridge And Malling Borough Council Leader Matt Boughton and Reform UK's first Kent County Councillor Thomas Mallon.
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00:00Welcome to the Kent Politics Show, live on KMTV. The show that gets Kent's politicians
00:29talking. I'm Oliver, leader of the Saks. Today we were supposed to be throwing a Christmas
00:34party for the last episode of the Kent Politics Show of 2024. We've had to shelve the party
00:39poppers and champagne because the government's new devolution Christmas list has wrapped
00:44up the year with a major shake-up of Kent's political landscape. And even the presence
00:49under the tree could end up being a little sparser, with Kent consumers feeling the pinch
00:55as water bills are set to rise in the new year. But for one party, Christmas has come
01:00a little early, with Reform UK winning a swale borough council seat in a by-election earlier
01:06today. So are they the ones to watch going into 2025? Well to make sense of it all, I'm
01:12joined by Matt Bourke, the Conservative leader of Tunbridge and Moorling Borough Council.
01:16And I would be joined by Thomas Mallon, Reform UK's first Kent County Councillor, but he's
01:20currently stuck in traffic. Let's hope he joins us later. But first, let's break down
01:25what devolution and local government reorganisation actually mean. Going forward, Kent's local
01:31and district borough councils will emerge and absorb into much larger unitary authorities
01:35that do all the public services you'd expect from local government. While the wider area
01:40will have the opportunity to potentially elect a mayor who will have greater power over transport
01:45energy in planning. In short, it will be an entirely new political map for Kent. But what
01:51will it look like? Here's what a handful of Kent's movers and shakers have been telling us
01:55over the last few weeks. Well, I think there is a lot in the white paper that accords with what
02:01I've always wanted to see in terms of devolution. You'll recall that last year, I argued the case
02:08for devolution and a mayoral authority under the previous government. So I've always been
02:14keen to ensure that some of these really big strategic decisions, things that affect infrastructure,
02:20economic development, environment, skills, that those decisions are actually taken not by national
02:27government, but by people who are ultimately accountable to residents in Kent and Medway.
02:33Having an authority in place that gives us the ability to not only pick up the bins and do the
02:40day-to-day, but empowers us to look after social care, policing and everything on a more localised
02:47basis, but under the auspices of a mayor who has to be elected on his mandate. It's not a party
02:54thing. So consequently, there is accountability. And instead of having a party-led leader that
03:01is simply put in place by a small cabinet, this empowers the entire community. One of the things
03:07I've shared with colleagues at the moment is that we've got four healthcare partnerships.
03:12They're not exactly equal when it comes to numbers, but I think that could be a potential
03:16building block. There'll be different views from different colleagues across the whole of the area.
03:21And I think for me, as much as possible, with the limited time we've got, let's say we've got to get
03:26some initial thoughts into government by the middle of January, and bearing in mind all
03:32individuals involved in this need to take a breath over the Christmas period as well,
03:36that will mean, I think, some potentially quite intense conversations.
03:41Well, Matt Bawson joins me down the line now. He's the leader of Tunbridge and Moorling Borough
03:46Council. And after a busy week, Matt, I'll just have to start with, how are you feeling about
03:50everything? Well, thank you very much, Ollie. It's hardly the season of goodwill from the
03:55government towards its colleagues in local government at the moment, given that a number
04:00of us found out on Monday that it is very much the intention of the government to do away with
04:05the authorities that we are a part of. So it's been a very, very intense few days. There's been
04:11lots of very important and very serious discussions because we are now looking at a
04:17reorganisation of local government in Kent, the like of which we haven't seen for 50 years or more.
04:23It is unprecedented in recent memory for a change of this scale, Matt. I just want to ask,
04:28obviously, I've been speaking to some of the big players in Kent politics, Vince Maple,
04:32Roger Goff, and discussions are already underway about what this reorganisation
04:37will look like. What do you think will happen to Tunbridge and Moorling as the leader of the council?
04:43Well, it's fair to say that the government made it very clear that they do not consider
04:47the two-tier system that we have in Kent, where we've got Kent County Council and then a number
04:53of 12 districts and boroughs underneath to be sustainable in the long term. And as part of
04:58their desire to create strategic authorities, they also wish to create new unitary authorities
05:05under that. So it's very clear that Tunbridge and Moorling Borough Council would change
05:09under the government's plans, and we need to work very closely to shape what that future is. Of
05:15course, as soon as the government released their white paper on Monday, what they've done
05:19is they have put uncertainty right across local government, and they've made it very,
05:23very difficult for us to continue to keep the morale up amongst all councillors, all council
05:30staff, a number of our partners too, and to be taken seriously as being able to deliver for
05:37residents across Tunbridge and Moorling and indeed the whole of the county. And I think that's
05:42regrettable that the government have done it in this way. And ultimately, it's really important
05:48that we work collaboratively together. We continue to think very carefully and very seriously about
05:54what the future of local government in Kent looks like, while not forgetting at all what this is
06:00all about. And this is all about providing high quality services to residents at the best value
06:05for money we possibly can. Well, Matt, I just want to ask you very quickly, obviously, as the
06:11leader of a council, you mentioned your staff there, staff do a lot of important work. It's
06:15something we haven't heard a lot about, because all the governments say they're trying to empower
06:18communities, give communities more power over things like planning and energy. What will happen,
06:23do you think, to those staff, those people who work for local district and borough councils? We
06:28haven't heard much about that. What do you think will happen to them? So it's very uncertain time,
06:33because if you're working for an authority, and you've got the government turning around saying
06:38you'd like that authority to be disbanded, then absolutely that creates uncertainty. And at this
06:44time of year, it's a particular worry. However, local government continues to deliver really
06:50important services. The government, if we take their word for it, says this devolution agenda
06:55is about delivering more locally. Now, if that is believed to be the case, and if that is where this
07:02ends up, then we know that all of our staff are playing such important roles at the moment,
07:07that they will continue to play important roles, albeit perhaps in an authority with a different
07:12name, and with a different boundary. So there's a real opportunity for staff there. But of course,
07:17it's an opportunity that is uncertain in how it looks in the future. And that obviously is going
07:23to be a particular worry. And I'm, my thoughts are with all of the staff working at all of the
07:29councils across Kent at the moment, because as you quite rightly say, Ollie, I don't think that
07:34has been considered very much by the government when they publish their white paper on Monday.
07:39Chris's Miracle, I can now bring in Thomas Mallory. He's managed to beat the traffic.
07:43Thank you for joining us in the studio here. Obviously, you are one of the newest Kent
07:48County councillors. You just won your by-election earlier. I think it was last month, actually.
07:53Yeah, 21st of November.
07:54Wow. Very, very close. How are you feeling about devolution? Because you've just joined KCC.
08:00What do you make of everything that's happening?
08:02Well, we were all geared to go for elections in May. Our teams were ready to go. The campaign
08:08teams were ready to go. And we were fired up. We were going out to pound the streets in January.
08:13It doesn't look like that may be the case now. It may be the case everything might be put on hold.
08:18On regards to devolution itself, I'm not a big fan. I think it's taken away power from the local
08:23people. So where you have local councillors, then you have Kent County councillors, that puts power
08:28back into the local people. I think if you have like a town mayor's or whatever you're going to
08:32have in whatever case it's going to be, I haven't read the 118-page white paper just yet. I've had
08:37quite a bit to do in the past few days. I'll get round to it though. I think it's going to just
08:41take the power away from the local people. And where it's going to be more regionalised,
08:46would someone say a faceless bureaucrat, shall we say, would they be more interested in the area
08:51they've been given to? Or would a person like myself who's been elected to represent the people
08:56in that area be more willing to represent the people in the area rather than some bureaucrat
09:01that says, that's your patch, look after it. But where we are going out, visiting groups,
09:05visiting volunteers, visiting local people and asking them what their real issues are,
09:10would someone who's just hired to do a job that's maybe decentralised from that area be more willing
09:15to do a job better than we would? I think I want to ask, obviously there is a lot of talk about
09:19unitary authorities and strategic authorities, perhaps being more efficient, better bang for
09:24the taxpayer's buck as it were. What do you make of that? Do you think that a mayor with bigger
09:29unitary authorities might be a more efficient way of governing Kent? Because it's such a big area
09:33with so many different communities and there is an efficiency mark when it comes to local
09:37government. Well, you say efficiency, straight away when I seen the white paper Devolution was
09:43coming out, straight away the first thought I had was how much more is this going to cost the Kent
09:47council taxpayer? How much more is it going to cost? And I seen a report the other day, whether
09:52it's factual or not, but it could actually cost the council taxpayer an extra £34 to £35 a year.
09:57So that's not better bang for your buck, that's costing more money. Where an efficient organisation
10:02like the Kent County Council is, could actually save the taxpayer money in the long run,
10:06because we know the issues in the Kent area. So if you're going to start breaking up areas
10:10or amalgamating midway towns into the Kent sphere, as you will, it could cost more money in the long
10:17run. So it's not doing the taxpayer any favours at all. And Matt, I've noticed behind you,
10:22quite ironically, you have a map. And I wanted to ask you, obviously, we're deciding, negotiating
10:27what the future of Kent's political landscape will look like. I know you've been in meetings
10:31this week already about this. What do you kind of see as Kent's political map going forward?
10:35I know Vince Maple mentioned potentially doing it along health partnership lines. What do you
10:40kind of make of it? What we're going to see is kind of where Tunbridge and Moorland fits in the
10:45whole Kent of it all. I always have my maps up in my office behind me, Ollie, and I do that because
10:52it's really important that you understand your sense of place. And you'll notice I don't just
10:56have maps of Tunbridge and Moorland up, but also of our neighbouring authorities. And one of the
11:00reasons for that is because we know that Tunbridge and Moorland is a collection of different
11:05communities. It's not one sole community. And in terms of how the map looks going forward,
11:13the government has said you're looking at population of 500,000 or more. Now, clearly,
11:18I'd like to keep that as close to 500,000. Personally, I think it's too high to be
11:23considered local government. But if the government are going to do it to us, we need to be there to
11:29work on this. Now, we've got established and longstanding relationships with our
11:33neighbouring authorities, like Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells and Maidstone. And some of the
11:39geography around that is one that I'd like to see us continue with going forward.
11:44Of course, Matt, I'm going to have to cut you off there. We're going to take an hour break.
11:46We'll continue this debate after the break because Thomas has just joined us. But we'll
11:51be talking more about devolution and potentially what water bills could look like next year.
11:55Stick around.
14:55Welcome back to The Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:20I'm the Conservative leader of Tunbridge and Moorland Borough Council and Thomas Mallon,
15:24Reformers UK's first Kent County Councillor. And let's just do a bit more on devolution.
15:29We didn't quite cover some of the big news, including about mayors. Obviously,
15:34strategic authorities of which these new unitaries will be part of will have the chance to elect a
15:39mayor. And these will have greater reaching powers over things like transport and planning.
15:44I was just wondering, do you think Kent really needs a mayor? Because obviously,
15:48it will offer new opportunities, integrated settlements, for example, will majorly boost
15:54cash-strapped councils. But do you think we really need a mayor? I'm going to go to
15:57you on this one, Thomas, first. Again, I don't believe in this at all, this devolution plan.
16:02I mean, what you're going to find is you're going to be having a mayor parachuted in and people
16:06might vote for the mayor. But what's going to happen is Westminster government will basically
16:11be saying to this mayor, build X amount of houses in your area, even if you don't want them or
16:16you're not getting funded. And that's what it's going to be. So there's going to be two sticks
16:19and no carrot in this instance. So if you don't do what you're told, you won't get any funds.
16:23And that's, I'm afraid, that's the way it's going to go.
16:25And Matt, obviously an experienced council. We've heard people like Matthew Scott throwing their
16:30name in the ring already. Could Mayor Matt be on the cards after Tunbridge and Morning
16:35Borough Council's fate is decided?
16:38I think that's highly unlikely, Oli. But ultimately, I've always said that I'm not against
16:43the idea of a mayor in principle. It's just got to replace something rather than be an additional
16:48tier of government. I'm interested in the strategic authorities. I understand the concept
16:56that the government are going with strategic authorities because it's one that has been
16:59rolled out over the last decade or so elsewhere. And ultimately, if this gives us the levers to
17:06get more investment into our communities in Kent and Medway, then that's got to be something that
17:11we look to work towards. And they have said this is the show that must go on. And therefore,
17:19we've got to accept that, whether we like it or not.
17:23Well, I think we'll move on to the next topic, because obviously, in other news, making a splash
17:29this week, water bills are set to rise for everyone in Kent and many will be paying £200
17:35more in just five years' time, rigging it off what has given the green light to water companies
17:41that they can spend more money on tackling sewage overflows, with Southern Water customers
17:46bearing the brunt as yearly payments are set to skyrocket by 53%.
17:51Even East Thanet's MP has been left reeling by the news.
17:55I was absolutely horrified. As somebody who pays my water rates here in Thanet to Southern Water,
18:02that kind of increase, I think, is appalling, bearing in mind they're still continuing to have
18:08bonuses and so forth, which is one of the reasons why I've written to the chief executive and said,
18:12this is the time when we know that those bills are going to go up for all of us by 58% in the
18:20next year, that the CEO of Southern Water does the right thing and doesn't take his bonus,
18:26but hands it over to the Marine Conservation Society, who do so much more for our clean
18:32waters than Southern Water do right now.
18:36Well, while Southern Water say that they're aware that this isn't going to make consumers
18:41happy, they do say it's essential for delivering improved performance and infrastructure.
18:46I'm wondering what both of you make of this, because obviously Swanscombe and Greenhithe,
18:50it's on the Thames estuary, Tunbridge and Morling, the River Medway runs through it as well.
18:55What do you guys make of this? Do you think that consumers should bear the brunt
18:59of this new infrastructure of offsetting sewage discharges?
19:04Well, to be honest, the water companies, when they actually took over from the government,
19:09when they took these water companies over, they were told in advance that new reservoirs would
19:13need to be built, they would need to build new pipelines, they would need to renew the whole
19:17network, but they haven't seemed to have done that. They've seemed to have looked after their
19:20shareholders for that last, say, 20 odd years and they've just been creaming off the top.
19:25They haven't been putting much money back into the local communities and that's why we're seeing
19:29things like Galley Hill Road is now closed down because of possibly a burst water pipe corroding
19:35the chalk. See, this is the problem, there's burst water mains everywhere because no one's really
19:39putting any investment back into the water companies. They're just creaming off the top,
19:43the shareholders are happy, you've got foreign investors just coming in and taking all the
19:47British money that us people are paying into this water system. Now maybe if they'd updated
19:51the system when they were asked to back in the 90s and early 2000s, there wouldn't be any situation
19:55we're in. So I don't see why the British public have to be taking the brunt and maybe sometimes
20:01the shareholders and the investors maybe have to put their own money into these things rather than
20:07relying on the taxpayer and the public. Obviously Galley Hill Road, a tested issue there and I kind
20:14of want to talk to you Matt quickly because obviously the government do have a plan with
20:18this, the water special measures bill designed to stop bonuses for water companies and potentially
20:25make them face criminal charges. I was wondering, do you think this will go far enough in kind of
20:31tackling what we're seeing at the moment? Obviously we're seeing bills rise while these
20:35bonuses continue. Do you think this new government policy will actually address this issue?
20:40To be honest, I don't really care what bonus the Chief Executive of Southern Water gets.
20:45I don't think personally he should be receiving a bonus but legislating around bonuses isn't going
20:51to solve the root causes of underperformance by our water companies. I, like everyone else,
20:57would like my water bill to be reduced as much as possible and I'll do the practical steps that
21:02I can and I'd like Southern Water to be a responsible company in terms of how they manage
21:08our water. But I'd really be interested from the government in some more practical steps
21:13rather than simply looking frankly at bonuses as the solution to this problem. I actually think
21:20it's a bit more deep-rooted than that. Obviously lots of concern around infrastructure in Kent as
21:25well but because it's the end of the year let's take a quick look back because 2024 has not stopped
21:32surprising us. These bills and devolution are just some of the many things that have happened
21:37this year in one of the most monumental for the county in recent history. New MPs, new councillors
21:43like Thomas, a new direction for the government and a new vision for what Kent could potentially
21:48look like. While we begin to look forward to 2025 we'll be looking back at the last 12 months
21:53shining a spotlight on the moments that changed everything. 2024 a year in Kent is available on
21:59our website kmtv.co.uk under the documentaries tab. Here's a little teaser about what you might expect.
22:07They say a week is a long time in British politics, let alone a whole year. In the last 12
22:15months make or break budgets, shock defections and sweeping elections have changed Kent's political
22:23landscape forever. But while yesterday's news may have slipped from memory the shock waves of these
22:31moments are still being felt on today's front pages and in tomorrow's headlines. It was really
22:38surprising. It's not been the best year let's all be honest. Well you've just used the word
22:43unpredictable I think it is unpredictable. Labour have now won the election. This is a year on the
22:51front line of Kent politics. I just want to kind of get your sense of what do you kind of both make
23:00of 2024 as a year in politics because it has kind of changed everything. Obviously reform has made a
23:07massive rise, the Conservatives have made losses and we have a new leader in both parties. They've
23:12kind of changed the rules basically. I'm wondering, I'll go to you on this first Thomas, what do you
23:17kind of make of 2024 in review? 2024 has been a year and a half hasn't it really. We've got a new
23:24government, we've got reform on the rise, we've got new reform councillors all over the country now
23:31and we've got even more membership now. We've got over a hundred thousand members for reform
23:35but as a year at the start of the year 2024 reforms membership was only in the 30,000s.
23:41Now we're way up into the 100,000s. We didn't have hardly any councillors, we've now got loads of
23:47councillors all over the country. So as a year it's been quite exciting. I think next year is going to
23:53bring a lot of surprises to be honest. Matt I just kind of want to get your sense on things because
23:58it's perhaps not been the best year to be a Conservative here in Kent. We've seen lots of MPs
24:04losing their roles to Labour in a lot of areas and we have seen reform eating into that vote share.
24:09What do you make of 2024? Is there any messages of hope for the Conservative party going to 2025?
24:15I think like many Conservatives I'll be pleased to see the back of 2024. It's been a very difficult
24:20year for the party and my message to our leaders nationally is that we need to start afresh.
24:27Kemi Badenoch made that clear as part of her pitch for the leadership and I'm looking forward
24:31to seeing how that develops over the next 12 months. Obviously the scale of the changes has
24:37been quite monumental but I know just like many Conservatives in our party that we remain committed
24:44to our cause. We continue to do the very best we can for all of our community and those of us who
24:50are still left in terms of holding elected office and holding leadership positions will continue to
24:55do that in the months and years to come. So someone who's perhaps had a slightly better end
25:00of 2024. It's surprising seven of those MPs, Laura Trott, is apparently the most popular MP in
25:07the country at the moment with a 42% positive view but I'm wondering if it kind of speaks to
25:14an issue in our politics that we've kind of lost trust in our politicians. Only 42%
25:19is enough to make it one of the most popular in the country and even Boris Johnson and Elijah Farage
25:25aren't particularly high. This is all from YouGov by the way. I'm wondering do you think this kind
25:28of paints a picture of a year where we've kind of lost faith in our politicians?
25:35Well to be honest I think since the Brexit referendum there's been a lot of doubt in
25:39politicians and in the way they handle issues nationally and locally. A lot of people are
25:45actually disenfranchised. You can see that in the voting figures now. The turnouts are getting lower
25:50and lower even for local elections. Some of the turnouts now are like 17-18%. I mean even the one
25:56I was involved in in November, 16% turnout. So I think a lot of people are actually being more
26:01disenfranchised. They've actually got sick of politics, sick of politicians and I think we
26:06need to try and enthusiastically make the country more... And obviously Sydneybourne was very low
26:10turnout as well. Matt, I was just wondering what do you make of it very very quickly just before we go?
26:17Trust in politicians has never been particularly high. I think it's important that everyone sticks
26:22their promises. The government certainly haven't been doing that so far but we can prove a local
26:28level to be good leaders, to prove a good example and we've got to do our very best.
26:33Well obviously thank you both for joining me. 2024 finally wrapped up for us here on the Kent
26:38Politics Show. We'll be back next year with all the news and views. Obviously you can check out Kent
26:44online as well. But for me, from now, have a very lovely evening and Merry Christmas.