Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by Cllr Johnathon Hawkes, Labour Opposition Leader at Dartford Borough Council and Claire Pearsall, former Conservative Government adviser.
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00:00Hello and welcome to The Kemp Politics Show live on KMTV.
00:29The show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
00:32I'm Oliver, leader of the SACs, and the headlines for this week, nothing is happening.
00:37Well not right now at least, with a decision on the Lower Thames crossing being pushed
00:41back to next year and now new checks with the EU also facing delays.
00:46But our political system hasn't fully stalled, with both Tom Tugendhat and James Cleverley
00:51making a swift and unceremonious exit from the Tory leadership contest.
00:56To make sense of it all, I'm joined by Jonathan Hawkes, the Labour opposition leader at Dartford
01:00Borough Council, and Clare Pearsall, former Conservative government adviser on immigration
01:05I believe.
01:06But we have to talk about it, 15 years and still no decision on whether the Lower Thames
01:11crossing is going to go ahead.
01:13And the question is, can Dartford cope?
01:1850 million vehicles a year, up to nearly 200,000 a day, and no solution in sight.
01:26This is the reality facing the Dartford crossing and the people that live beside it.
01:31If the traffic's bad at the tunnel, the estate just becomes a car park.
01:35You can't even get off your drive, it can take an hour to get anywhere, an hour to get
01:40home from work.
01:41Normally if there's a problem with a bridge, it affects everybody.
01:44It affects everything.
01:45If the bridge is congested, whatever it is, whether it's protesters or whatever happens,
01:51accidents, if anything goes wrong with the bridge, the whole of Dartford falls to pieces.
01:55A few years ago I'd probably do four or five jobs a day, spend probably four or five hours
02:02working and two or three hours travelling.
02:03Now I'm doing one or two jobs a day and spending five hours a day travelling, maybe an hour
02:09and a half working, two hours at most.
02:12With gridlock, congestion and air pollution rampant, there are plans being put forward
02:17to build a new crossing under the Thames near Gravesend to ease overcapacity.
02:24But after a series of delays, the Secretary of State for Transport has pushed back the
02:29deadline to approve or reject the plans until next year.
02:34Well, it's inexplicable.
02:35I mean, it's beyond parody really.
02:37I mean, this is an issue that's been on the table for a very long time.
02:41It's been on ministers' desks for a very long time, so quite unearthwhy there needs
02:44to be this delay now.
02:45It's simply beyond me.
02:46So what's next?
02:47Well, in a written statement to Parliament, the Secretary of State for Transport revealed
02:53the new deadline for the decision will be at the end of May next year, saying it will
02:59give the government more time to consider the application, including any changes made
03:06to spending.
03:07It also means for the next seven months, the disappointed Labour MP for Dartford will have
03:13a lot of letters and lobbying to do.
03:15If it means that we can get shovels in the ground shortly after May, then it will have
03:19been worth the wait, but it's clearly disappointing that approval hasn't been given as of now.
03:25The project has been in the works for 15 years.
03:29With so much at stake, another seven months may be a bridge too far.
03:35Oliver, lead us to the sats for KNTV in Dartford.
03:38Well, still joining me is Jonathan and Claire.
03:42And Jonathan, I want to go to you first, because you have been FCD councillor for a number
03:46of years now, and you must be frustrated.
03:48This has been going on for so long.
03:49Well, it's disappointing that we've had a delay, but I don't think it's the end of the
03:53road by any means.
03:54And of course, we've had 13 years of delays on this project under the previous government
04:00who didn't deliver on their promises.
04:03The new government have said they want a little bit more time to look at the application.
04:08If that means a decision being postponed to next May is the right decision for Dartford
04:13and we get planning permission for the crossing, we can be able to start building, then that
04:18is worth the wait.
04:20So disappointing that we didn't get the decision last week as we hoped, but certainly not the
04:25end of the story.
04:26Because I wanted to say, because the Conservative manifesto did promise the construction of
04:30the lower Thames crossing back in July, why can't Labour do the same?
04:34Surely the Conservatives were going to promise to deliver it.
04:36Well, the last Conservative government didn't deliver any of their manifesto commitments,
04:41so I don't think their manifesto is worth the paper it's written on.
04:45They didn't deliver the crossing.
04:47It's 2011 since they identified it as a priority project.
04:51All through that time, it hasn't been delivered.
04:54We now are picking up that kind of issue for Dartford.
04:59We need a little bit more time to look at the application.
05:00Like I say, if we can get the right decision next May, then it will be worth the wait and
05:05we can start getting shovels in the ground, which we haven't seen so far, and start the
05:09progress.
05:10Because, Oliver, this is desperately needed.
05:12Every day that the crossing is over capacity and we have congestion in Dartford is a day
05:17where Dartford residents can't get to work on time, can't get their children to school
05:22on time, they can't make their hospital appointments on time, and that's on top of that the dirty
05:26air that the congestion causes is damaging our health.
05:30So there is no doubt that we absolutely need this to be built.
05:35It's unfortunate we haven't got the decision this week, but we're still very much making
05:39the case that this is a vital infrastructure project for our local area and for the whole
05:43of the region, and it needs to go ahead.
05:45Well, Clare, let's put it bluntly then, because Jonathan is saying that this is Conservatives'
05:50fault.
05:51It hasn't been built in the 15 years since it was being first discussed.
05:55Your party's dropped the ball on this, hasn't it?
05:57I don't think it saw the importance of it.
06:00And I think it really comes down to the fact that when politicians are in Westminster,
06:05they think of Dartford as being miles away, they don't really understand the infrastructure
06:09that cannot cope in the area.
06:11And it's not just Dartford residents that are affected.
06:14Where I live in New Ashgreen, we get all of the backlog from where people are trying to
06:18use rat runs around the A2 and the country lanes.
06:21So it makes it impossible for people to get to school or hospital appointments or whatever
06:26it is.
06:27But I don't think they appreciated the necessity of a second crossing.
06:31And they were looking at the cost.
06:33They were being lobbied by other MPs who were concerned about the environment, which always
06:39has to be a concern.
06:41But I think that it has taken far too long.
06:44It has made far too many lawyers rich.
06:47And when we've got 300,000 pages of documents sitting there, I'm not sure why that we need
06:55to delay the decision now until next year.
06:57That first point, damning of the government that you supported, given that they didn't
07:02deliver this.
07:03Do you think that they could have done more to invest in infrastructure?
07:07Yeah, I think every government has the problem when it comes to infrastructure planning,
07:11is that A, our planning system is cumbersome, and B, it's expensive.
07:18But the problem is, if you just look at those two things in isolation, you would never build
07:22anything anywhere.
07:23And also, the longer you leave it, the more expensive it gets.
07:26I think that governments as a whole aren't great at making decisions.
07:31And when they do, it then takes a very long time from that decision point to getting shovels
07:36in the ground and getting bridges built or tunnels built or even just roads resurfaced.
07:41There seems to be a lot of agreement on the sofa right now, but it's not agreement across
07:45the entire political spectrum, as Thurrock Council and Gratian Borough Council both opposed
07:49the plans.
07:50Surely it's a delay to give people like yourselves who support the crossing some pause for thought.
07:57Well, we've been through a consultation, and the decision has been made to build the crossing.
08:04Of course, I understand local concerns, and I understand those being raised.
08:08But people in Gratian, people in Thurrock also suffer from congestion, also suffer from
08:14the air pollution that congestion causes.
08:17And building an additional crossing over the Thames is going to double the road capacity.
08:23It's going to reduce the traffic on the Dartford Crossing by 20%.
08:27It's the only way that we start to address these problems in the local area.
08:31Are there other things that need to be done to improve the local road network?
08:35Of course there are.
08:36Do we need to invest in public transport more?
08:38Of course we do.
08:39But unless we make a start on the Lower Thames Crossing, we will not be able to solve these
08:44problems in the long term, and it really does need to go ahead.
08:46But like Thurrock said, it's going to cost the millions to their economy.
08:50Are they wrong to say that?
08:52It costs the millions to the economy now.
08:55The congestion of the existing crossing and the hold-up that has to freight, 80% of the
09:02freight that we export abroad travels by road, and it goes down to Dover.
09:08It is madness that there is only one crossing over the Thames to do that.
09:14Having an additional crossing will free up that capacity, allow more freight, more trade
09:19to be able to go, and that will actually add around £40 billion, is the estimate, to the
09:24economy.
09:25So I understand people's concerns.
09:27Of course a project of this magnitude is going to be controversial and there will be different
09:32views on it, but it's very clear that it's an economic benefit, it's a health benefit,
09:37and it is the only way that we're going to get Dartford moving again and the local area
09:41moving again.
09:42But Clare, conservationists say it's going to destroy historic woodland.
09:46Is that not worth protecting?
09:48I'm always a fan of keeping ancient woodlands protected, and I think the argument regarding
09:53Sean Country Park, which is probably where you're looking at, has validity.
09:59However, there are mitigations being put in place, and I think that people need to remember
10:04the Hindhead Tunnel on the A3, there were similar concerns of the Devil's Punchbowl,
10:10a beautiful area, very similar in capacity to Sean Country Park, and they've actually
10:15made it a much better area, the pollution is going down, and I think that you need to
10:22look at the benefits.
10:23So I'm not sure that we're going to start bulldozing through ancient woodlands, but
10:26there will be some mitigation as to what the environmental concerns are.
10:32Surely with the current climate crisis, we've been discouraging road use as much as possible,
10:37encouraging more public transport, surely investment would be better in things like
10:41our rail infrastructure here in the county?
10:44You need to do both, you need to do both.
10:47Rail is part of the solution going forward, we need more investment in public transport,
10:54but we have got to start easing the congestion on our roads, and that includes improving
11:00the roads and building new roads.
11:01If we don't do that, the congestion will add up to a completely intolerable level, we're
11:07at that stage now, and again, it's not just about the inconvenience of sitting in traffic,
11:13the air pollution in Dartford is one of the worst outside London, and that's a direct
11:19result of the congestion that we see on the M25 and the crossing, it's affecting our health.
11:25So we absolutely need to see that flowing of traffic around, so actually we can start
11:30alleviating some of those problems.
11:32Brilliant, well thanks so much for joining me for the first part.
11:35We'll be back after the break with more political headlines from across Kent, including the
11:40Tory leadership contest and a certain Tunbridge MP who was knocked out.
11:45Stick with us.
11:50Brilliant.
11:54I know, I was going to say!
14:49Back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV, the show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
15:13Still joining me is Jonathan Hawkes, the Labour opposition leader at Dartford Borough Council,
15:18and Clare Pearsall, the Conservative Government advisor, former Conservative Government advisor
15:22for immigration.
15:24And now for the biggest shock of the week, as we now know the final two candidates to
15:29take control of the Conservative Party.
15:33It's not who everyone thought it was going to be.
15:36Kemi Bainock, 42 votes.
15:40James Cleverley, 37 votes.
15:44And Robert Jenrick, 41 votes.
15:49So as a result of that ballot, James Cleverley is eliminated from the contest and Kemi Bainock
15:56and Robert Jenrick now go forward to the ballot of members.
16:02Well Clare, you were in the House of Commons this week and that sounded quite chaotic.
16:08From your perspective as a Conservative Party insider, what happened there?
16:12I think this was a massive mistake and it was a mistake in how many MPs they have and
16:21could they add up correctly.
16:23I think that that's all it comes down to.
16:25There probably were some plots looking like they were trying to be formed along the sidelines
16:30but then people didn't keep a record properly and it just fell into a disaster.
16:36Now everybody is entitled to cast their vote for whichever candidate they wished but if
16:41you're going to be clever about it, then you need to hold proper records and you need
16:45to have a proper whipping operation, none of which I saw on Tuesday or Wednesday of
16:50this week.
16:51So it has been such a mess and of course that result, I think we all did a massive intake
16:58of breath when the numbers came through, none of us saw that happening.
17:01Because James Cleverley was so far ahead, do you believe there's any credence to those
17:06vote lending rumours we've heard so much about from some of the larger media outlets?
17:11I don't think it was as organised as that, to be perfectly honest.
17:15I think there probably was some going alongside but it wasn't the main thrust of the candidacy.
17:23It doesn't seem to have been that organised and that's what makes me think that I think
17:27the media are putting far too much organisational capability on the shoulders of these candidates
17:34and their teams when actually in reality I think that some of them actually worked harder
17:38than others to shore up the votes.
17:40For example, Robert Jenrick's team were phoning around early on Wednesday morning whereas
17:46James Cleverley's team decided that they could leave it till mid-morning lunchtime before
17:49they started contacting people.
17:51And if you're looking for votes, you need to be out there early.
17:55Well Jonathan, the two candidates that are now looking to take over the Conservative
17:59party are quite hardline to the right.
18:03Do you think the government should be declaring this one as a gift this time around?
18:07Well I think what Clare has to say, I think that's an indication of their counting skills.
18:12I'm beginning to understand why the economy is in such a state that it is.
18:17But what's clear is the Conservative party have learnt absolutely no lessons at all about
18:23why they were so overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate on the 4th of July.
18:29They're lurching to the right.
18:31They've got two candidates who are completely out of touch with the mainstream views of
18:36residents in Dartford and the rest of the Kent.
18:40And they've both got a record of failure in government.
18:43And frankly if either of them are the answer, then the Conservative party are asking the
18:47wrong question.
18:48What do you make of it Clare?
18:50You're supposed to be agreeing with that one over there.
18:52No, I'm not going to be agreeing with that one.
18:54I do worry for my party sometimes if they believe that lurching ever more to the right
18:59is the correct answer when we have put in essentially what is a left-wing government
19:04sort of.
19:05I mean I'm not convinced that it's entirely left-wing as a Labour government.
19:09But also chasing after reform voters when you are looking like you are the light version
19:14of reform is never going to work because people are just going to go for the full fat version
19:18and have done with it.
19:20But I think that the Labour party also needs to perhaps have a look and see what mess they're
19:24in at the moment after the first hundred days.
19:27It hasn't gone terribly well.
19:29You need to have a good team around you.
19:30And I think the Conservative party could send you a salutary lesson in looking at the individuals
19:35you have and who is in your cabinet.
19:37Well, while the Conservative party are looking inwards at the moment, Labour are delivering
19:41for residents in Kent, whether that's the new deal for working people, whether that's
19:46taking railways back into public ownership, whether that's the GB energy.
19:51Other than that, if you're a vulnerable pensioner, I think that you're not going to feel quite
19:55so happy with your decision.
19:57And also the workers' rights bill, which was meant to come in in a blaze of glory, isn't
20:01coming in for another two years, looks likely to be watered down.
20:04And I think the unions are probably not that happy with the exclusion of certain parts
20:09that they were in favour of in the first place.
20:11Banning no-fault evictions, fixing the foundations of the economy so we can't have a situation
20:15like Willow's Trust again.
20:16Actually, these hundred days have actually seen an enormous amount of progress from the
20:21Labour government.
20:22And it's Labour.
20:23But Keir Starmer's hit record unpopularity.
20:26One-half people disapprove of him as leader.
20:29This is a race to the bottom, isn't it?
20:30Well, it's not.
20:32It's Labour who are delivering for the mainstream priorities of people in Dartford, of people
20:37across Kent, while the Conservative Party are retreating to the extremes.
20:40No, how?
20:41How are they delivering for people outside of Dartford, say, in my village of New Ashgreen?
20:48If you're looking at introducing pay per mile, introducing higher levies on fuel duty, you're
20:54looking to...
20:55Well, we're not introducing pay per mile.
20:57But, Claire, let's be honest, right?
21:01If the Conservatives can't be honest with who they're voting for in their own leadership
21:04election, how can they be honest with the country?
21:06Labour didn't get in for no reason, did they?
21:08No, they didn't.
21:10And that's the one thing I will agree on, is that we were a complete mess.
21:14The Conservative Party needs to understand what it is, what it wants to be and how it
21:18wants to present itself.
21:20And I think that we are going through that process.
21:23We have been there before.
21:24And never underestimate the willingness of the party to actually come together.
21:28I think it just needs to hit rock bottom, which I thought it had on the 4th of July,
21:32but clearly it didn't.
21:34And then it needs to get better.
21:36And I think the problems for Labour with such a large majority is that you have an awful
21:42lot of people to keep happy.
21:44You have an awful lot of people that you have perhaps promised things to.
21:47And there are some tough decisions that have to be made.
21:50And you wonder how long it is going to take before rebellion sets in.
21:55It naturally does when you have a large majority, because people think, oh, well, it's OK, it
22:00will still go through.
22:01Do you think rebellion is likely then, Jonathan?
22:02Are you expecting this government to collapse in on itself?
22:05The only people that we're interested in keeping happy are residents that voted for us.
22:10And we're doing that through delivery, like the New Deal for Working People, like banning
22:14no-fault evictions, like setting up GB Energy, like setting up the National Wealth Fund.
22:18There's been 100 days of delivery while the Conservatives are navel-gazing and retreating
22:23to the right.
22:25You've mentioned GB Energy.
22:26And I find this a lot with colleagues of yours.
22:29What has GB Energy delivered?
22:31What is it going to deliver?
22:33Because from what I can see, it is a funding arm for projects.
22:38It isn't going to reduce the bills.
22:39And I think the chief executive said in front of a committee not that long ago that his
22:44job was not to reduce the energy bill.
22:45Well, I want to steer us more back to kind of the general discussion around Labour's
22:48popularity.
22:49Let's not go into the specifics of certain things, because we don't have all the stats
22:52and stuff with us.
22:53But obviously, people aren't happy, Jonathan.
22:55There is this drop in popularity.
22:57There are concerns about the head of local elections next year.
23:01Do you think Labour's lost control of the narrative?
23:03No, I don't think so.
23:05It's been three months.
23:06It's been three months after 14 years of chaos and decline and division.
23:13We've come into a £22 billion black hole in the public finances.
23:19Governing is difficult.
23:20I don't think anybody would try and deny it otherwise, but we have started to deliver
23:24on the programme.
23:25I've explained what has happened in the first 100 days.
23:29And I'm confident, as we deliver on those manifesto promises, as we will, we will start
23:35to see those satisfaction levels go up again.
23:38Well, Clare, I wanted to kind of ask you, you mentioned rock bottom here.
23:43Do you think this is what the Conservative Party have hit with their two candidates,
23:46James Cleverley, Tom Tugendhat coming out?
23:48They were viewed as on the left of the party.
23:51Are you happy with the two people that could potentially lead the party?
23:54Are you going to make any endorsement of either of them, or will you be spoiling your ballot
23:57in a month's time?
23:59I'm not going to make any endorsements of any candidate.
24:02I don't think it's fair on them, because every prediction I make tends to go horribly wrong.
24:08I think we need to understand a little bit more about what they stand for.
24:12It's going to be a very tricky decision for those of us who are sort of a more One Nation
24:17type individual.
24:19And I think that it is incredibly hard when you look at the voting numbers.
24:24It's pretty much a third, a third and a third.
24:26So the party is as fractured as ever.
24:28And unless we hear some more decent policy ideas from both of the final candidates, I
24:34think it's going to be incredibly hard for the majority of us to decide.
24:37So looking forward then, obviously, we have the budget at the end of the month.
24:41What can we expect that could be delivered in Kent then?
24:44What should we keep an eye out for from your own understandings?
24:48Well, I'm not in a position to start giving details of the budget.
24:51You won't be surprised to hear.
24:54But we've been very clear that actually growth is the priority for the Labour government.
24:57And actually getting the economy growing again is the way that actually we get more money
25:03in people's pockets.
25:04We have more jobs and we start to actually repair some of the damage that we've seen
25:08over the last 14 years.
25:10So I think what you can expect from a Labour budget is a very much pro-growth budget, where
25:16we start to fix the foundations of the economy and make sure we're never again in a situation
25:21that we were in where people's mortgages are going up by hundreds of pounds a month and
25:25people are wondering about how they're going to pay their next bill.
25:28We're fixing the foundations of the economy.
25:30Claire, any rumblings in Westminster?
25:32What are you expecting to hear in later this month?
25:34I think that quite a lot of people are interested in things like single person council tax discounts,
25:40around fuel duty.
25:41That's a major one.
25:42And I know that Fairfuel are coming into Parliament to lobby on behalf of their members.
25:49So I think it's going to be those kind of taxes where increases are more likely, not
25:55just looking at income tax, but also things like capital gains tax, inheritance tax.
25:59I think that we will be looking at those to have a look at the effect.
26:03Well, thank you both for joining me.
26:04It's been great speaking to you.
26:06But before we go, there are lots of other ways you can keep in touch with politics right
26:10here in the county and in Westminster.
26:14For all the latest news and views, visit Kent Online's Bespoke Politics session, Kent Online,
26:19and also check out the Kent Politics podcast.
26:21And of course, our brand new politics briefing, our new newsletter, straight to your inbox.
26:28But that's all we have time for tonight on The Politics Show.
26:32Once again, thanks so much to Jonathan and Claire for joining me here in the studio.
26:36We'll be back next week with all the debate across Kent on all the big political headlines.
26:41Stick around for Kent tonight and The Bulletin later on.
26:44Good evening.