Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by the leader of Reform Uk at Swale Borough Council Richard Palmer and the Swale Independents leader Mike Baldock.
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00:00Good morning and welcome to the KM politics show, live here on KMTV, bright and early.
00:29The show that gets Kent's politicians talking. I'm Oliver, leader of the Saks, and it's been
00:33a good few weeks for Reform UK, winning two by-election seats in Medway and bolstering
00:38their ranks at Swell Borough Council with four defections. With Kent County Council
00:44raising taxes in yet another difficult financial year, how will this play out at local elections
00:49this May? And will a different administration actually tackle the big issues plaguing our
00:54towns and villages here in North Kent? To make sense of it all, I'm joined by Councillor
00:59Mike Baldock, the leader of the Swell Independent Group at Swell Borough Council, and Councillor
01:04Richard Palmer, the leader of Reform UK at Swell Borough Council. But first, last Thursday
01:09signalled something of a tidal shift in Kent's already turbulent political waters. By Friday
01:15morning we discovered three new Medway Reform councillors had emerged, and down the road
01:21in Swell, four defections from the Swell Independents further shaked up one of Kent's
01:26most divided councils. We also see the Reform by-election candidates suspended in Dover,
01:32and controversy over the party's stance on the NHS. So, what will it mean for local elections
01:38later in the year? Well, Richard, Mike, thank you both for joining me here in the studio.
01:43And Mike, I want to talk to you about this first, because obviously Richard here used
01:48to be a part of your party, he's now Reform UK. How are you feeling about the whole situation?
01:54I think that what happens in one small area is really a side issue. I think we need to
02:00focus on what's going to happen in May, the impacts of that and the consequences. People
02:06can go on thinking they're very important in small ponds. I don't think that's what
02:13the viewers want to hear. They want to hear about what's going to happen in May, the big
02:17issues. Richard, I have to ask you, why did you choose to defect alongside three of your
02:22fellow councillors last week? Because you were a Swell Independent for quite a long
02:26time at this point. That's right, I joined it, me and Mike formed it actually, back in
02:31I believe 2019. I've been unhappy for a while, particularly the way politics have gone. I've
02:39looked at Reform, I did consider going to Reform a year ago. I stuck with it, I was
02:45quite loyal. I helped Mike join the general election, I helped two by-elections. I just
02:52feel that at the moment that the policies at Reform have got nationally. Mike's quite
02:57right, Swellborough Council isn't going to make a big difference to what happens, nor
03:01is KCC, because actually the levers are being pulled by Westminster and the government and
03:08local democracy is going to be really undermined by what's happening in Westminster. Especially
03:14amongst devolution, though local politics is still important. There won't be any point
03:18having a Swell Independent group, or even a Reform UK councillors, if there wasn't any
03:23point in having them at all. And Mike, I'm just wondering, do you feel betrayed? Because
03:27obviously in the election in 2023, Hartlep, Newington and Upchurch voted overwhelmingly
03:34in favour of the Swell Independents that year. This is a bit of a betrayal of the voters, isn't it?
03:39I think what really matters is when we're going into these new elections, these could
03:47be the last time that we have elections for KCC. We're looking at a government that is
03:53doing away with local democracy, it's trying to force these unitaries upon us, where local
03:58voices are going to be stamped out, where local identities are overridden, and there's
04:04been no consultation. The public haven't been consulted on this. It wasn't in Labour's manifesto.
04:10It's hugely undemocratic. And I think that people need to be involved in that conversation.
04:15People need to be able to say, no, this isn't what we want. We want to be able to keep having
04:20a local voice. We want to keep having a local identity. People on Sheppey feel very strongly
04:26about Sheppey, that it has its identity. They want their voice heard. They don't feel heard
04:31on Swale. How are they going to feel heard on a huge unitary that covers three or four
04:36current borough sizes? This is what's really important. And nobody's being asked. No, it's
04:43just being done to us. And that's why people are losing faith in politics and political
04:48parties, because you have manifestos that don't reflect what happened. You have things
04:53being done to people that they don't get consulted about. And you get this complete lack of trust
04:58in politicians.
04:59Because, obviously, Labour did say in their manifesto they were thinking about some sort
05:04of devolution. They set out exactly what it would look like. We've now got a bit of a
05:09look at what it's going to look like. And, of course, not everyone's happy. I mean, we've
05:12heard in Maidstone this week worries about parish and town councils potentially going
05:17away.
05:18But devolution is supposed to be about moving power from the centre down to local people.
05:23Now, taking away local councils and enforcing huge unitaries isn't devolution. That's local
05:30government reorganisation, which isn't about empowering local people. It's the exact opposite.
05:37So they try and tag this unitarisation on the argument that they put devolution of powers
05:43in their manifesto. It's a whitewash. The fact is, devolution of powers means releasing
05:52powers from the centre, giving powers to local councils, local people, and giving them
05:56the money to do it.
05:57Well, Mike, I'm going to bring Richard in here, because you mentioned about trust in
06:00politicians and that these devolution talks are causing people to lose a lot of faith.
06:05And, obviously, Reform UK has benefited a lot from the recent mistrust of the Conservative
06:10Party and the handling of Partygate, about the Labour Party as well. But do you think
06:15that defecting from a party that overwhelmingly won in 2023, defecting from a party without
06:21the say of your residents, without even talking to your former colleagues, do you think that's
06:27going to breed mistrust?
06:28I don't think it helps. I think, to be quite honest, it doesn't help. But, at the end of
06:35the day, sometimes you have to sit down and look at the cold, hard facts of things and
06:40say, actually, the direction we're going is not in the direction that the people of this
06:44country want. And the vast majority of the people of this country are fed up with the
06:50main political parties, who have, over the last 30 years, neglected this country. And
06:57Mike's right. It is about local democracy, but it's going. And if you don't change
07:04the structure of how this country is being governed, then the country's finished. And
07:09it doesn't matter whether it's Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems. When they've had a chance, they've
07:14ruined the country. And Mike's right. It is about local democracy, because even local
07:19councillors don't really follow in with the devolution. Not many of them know, actually,
07:26what's going to happen. And there's no agreement between councils as to what's going to happen,
07:30apart from, it seems, that Medway Council under Vince Maple just wants the Greater Medway
07:34to take everything in.
07:35Of course, there's a lot of debate around taking in Swale into a wider, greater unitary
07:41with Medway. But I'm wondering, you mentioned that Labour, the Conservatives, they keep
07:46doing things that you disagree with, that they aren't doing things properly. But what
07:51would reformed UK actually do if they win big in these, what could be KCC's last local
07:57elections? What would reformed UK actually do? Because there's no point sitting here
08:01criticising the other parties without outlaying a vision for Kent and for KCC. What would
08:06you do differently?
08:07Well, they're working on a manifesto for KCC for the elections. I've not been involved
08:13in that. But I think there is a mood amongst people to have a change, to draw back. We
08:19have to highlight that over the last 30 to 40 years, everyone's been talking about social
08:24care and bringing it in. But social care is a crippling budget for local authorities and
08:31central government have ignored the problem for years.
08:34And can I just say that you've hit the nail right on the head there, because reform are
08:40in that position where they can criticise Labour, they can criticise the Conservatives.
08:46They are absolutely getting support because of people who are so tired and disappointed
08:54and sickened by what Starmer's doing. But we don't know what they would do. And it's
09:00easy to say, you know, if we got on KCC we'll make things different. But once you're elected
09:06into power, you are caught within the trappings of that power. You are restricted very much
09:13in what you can do. And then you find out, actually, all these promises, all these good
09:18intentions, all these, you know, groundbreaking changes don't happen.
09:24So what would you do?
09:25And then what you find is people get more disappointed. Local government is constrained
09:32and it's no good pretending that it isn't. So you can't make the sweeping changes that
09:36you want. You can't say, right, we'll have no increase in council tax without cutting
09:43a whole load of services. And we haven't got the money for the services anyway.
09:46But you're on KCC. What have you been doing?
09:49Well, we have to play within the rules. I have supported increases in council tax because
09:58you have to have that money coming in, in order to be able to deliver the services to
10:03the level that they are. There is a shortfall in highway expenditure, which I've opposed
10:09more every year. There's a 20-year backlog. That's not going to be fixed by a 5% council
10:15tax increase. I don't support the budget, but I do support the principle of 5% increase.
10:21And I'm sure we'll talk about the budget more after the break. It is a huge issue. But just
10:26want to go back to a more local issue here is, with all of these debates around local
10:32elections, obviously we've seen a rise in antisocial behaviour in the heart of Swale,
10:36Sittingbourne, Sheerness. With everything that's happening at the moment, with the uncertainty
10:42about the future of local authorities, how can we even begin to tackle this issue right
10:46in the heart of your wards?
10:49Well, I think antisocial behaviour is a terrible thing. I think sometimes parents have to take
10:55responsibility. I think there are opportunities that really a lot of young people have just
11:01had services cut from them. There's very little support. So as budgets get tighter and tighter
11:06and tighter, it's the young people who have taken the main hit. And that needs to stop.
11:12And I can understand why young people go, I'm fed up with what the system is. Because
11:17the system is always hitting the young kids. And I wouldn't like to be a teenager at this
11:23time of life. Today, when I look back to when I was in teenage years, there was lots
11:29of things to do. I think the opportunities have gone. And if you wanted to go out, even
11:34as a family, it's very expensive. If you go to the picture, I went to the pictures to
11:38see Bob Dylan.
11:40Well, I thought I'd cut you off there, because we have a break. But I'm sure there'll be
11:44more what appears to be doom and gloom after the break. We'll talk about KCC's budget,
11:48but there'll be a glimmer of hope with the Eurostar as well. See you in a minute.
14:53Hello, and welcome back to the Kent Politics Show, live here on KMTV, the show that gets
15:12Kent's politicians talking. Still joining me is Councillor Mike Ballock, the leader
15:16of Swale Independence at Swale Borough Council, and Councillor Richard Palm, the leader of
15:20Reform UK at Swale Borough Council. Now, we kind of headed towards it before the break,
15:25but Kent County Council has balanced the books in their new budget. But at what cost? With
15:30reserves depleted, council tax on the up, and warnings that this won't be the end for
15:35local financial woes. What's next for Kent's council? Well, that's what we asked Roger
15:41Goff, the leader of KCC, who outlined why he made the decisions he did.
15:47We levy a very visible tax. Council tax is a really, really visible tax. And at the same
15:53time, vast amounts of the money that we spend go on services which are really, really important,
16:01but not very visible to the vast majority of people. So those three areas that I described,
16:07you know, in terms of adult social care, children's services, all the different factors related
16:13to special educational needs. These are really important services, often aiding vulnerable
16:18people. But they are not that visible to our residents, the bulk of residents, in the way
16:25that let's say, the state of the roads is. Well, Richard and Mike still join me in the studio. And
16:31Mike, obviously, you're KCC councillor, so this is also something you have a say on as well. But
16:36it is a big issue. We saw more than £70 million of cuts to spending in this budget. Council tax
16:43increased to the highest without a referendum. It's not really good news for the residents of
16:48Kent, is it? No, it's not. And I think what people need to think about is sometimes the issue is
16:55central government have cuts year on year. It's not just the Labour government, Conservative
17:00government, the coalition government with the Lib Dems. There was so much austerity, so many cuts,
17:05that it's made it very difficult for many councils to survive. And the pressures of social care,
17:11education, special educational needs, immigration, certainly with children and families in Kent,
17:19have placed a terrific strain on local authorities. But the government, instead of trying to support
17:26local authorities, fritter away the money overseas on their little pet projects, on other things. So
17:33there needs to be a change. And if you don't look at what's the main issues, social care is going to
17:41destroy a lot of local authorities.
17:43Rich, I want to come back to you on that. Because if you look at Reform UK's pledges in the general
17:48election, there were hundreds of millions of pounds in tax cuts. That doesn't speak of a party
17:54that's interested in investment, in putting the money that's needed into local authorities, and
18:00adult and children's social care to tackle the issue. That speaks of a small state party that
18:06believes that we should privatise and diversify out the sector. Like, how can you reconcile those
18:11two views?
18:12Well, it's quite easy, really. If you look at taxation, if you tax and overtax people, they
18:18avoid tax more. And the more you avoid tax, or they leave the country, the less tax you get in. And
18:23that's been apparent since the budget with Rachel Reeves. She's come out with a budget which has
18:29increased taxes, even on working people. The national insurance increase is affecting about
18:33£50,000 on the budget for Swale Borough Council. It will be greatly affected for KCC. So, when
18:44the government talks about growth, and it doesn't grow, you don't grow an economy by taxing it.
18:53If you want to grow an economy, you need people to start to invest in their own businesses,
19:01which will bring in the wealth. But if you tax people, you're going to finish up with problems. And
19:06that's what they're doing.
19:07I think it's interesting, Roger Goff mentioned that those national insurance rises, those costs to
19:11employment, are a lethal cocktail of policies. That's his words, that are increasing costs on already
19:17what is quite a cash strapped council. Mike, as someone who goes to KCC on a regular basis for
19:25meetings, who had a voice in the budget yesterday, do you think that there is really a way around
19:30this, that this is really a central government problem that can't really be solved in Kent?
19:35I think a lot of it is down to central government. But I also think when you are, like the Tories are
19:41doing at KCC, actually putting another 10 million back into reserves, at a time when people are
19:47suffering from the service cuts, that's a really questionable approach. And there were some
19:53amendments put forward yesterday. Labour put forward an alternative budget, which, you know, trust in
20:00Labour is a little bit lacking at the moment, but their proposals were better than the Conservatives.
20:05They were about service delivery. There were some amendments, which would have seen more community
20:11wardens, would have seen more money spent on road improvements rather than doing up in Victorhouse. So
20:19when they're choosing to put 10 million back into reserves, that's 10 million cut in services, and they
20:27didn't need to make that choice. We could have had better services. We could have had more investment in
20:33our roads. It was a very short-sighted approach from the Tories. There's no investing to save. There's
20:41no spending on early intervention to save money further down the line. And I think that is where
20:49this country has really gone backward. But it's not looking at savings that will come in five, 10 years
20:56time by early intervention. It's just looking at how do we get through the next 18 months? How do we get to
21:01the next election? It's all short-termism. No parties have got a vision.
21:05Obviously, it's even harder given the fact that we don't really know about devolution yet. It's hard to
21:11make a plan for four or five years time when KCC won't exist within that time period. And I'm wondering, do
21:17both of you think we're in this weird limbo state at the moment where you can't make financial planning,
21:23can't make risky financial decisions, can't promise to invest in services? Obviously, the Conservatives are
21:28in a difficult position. They don't know when...
21:30We are, but people are still going to be living here. The same people are still going to be living in
21:37whatever unitary as they are under KCC. So the argument to invest in early intervention, so that you
21:45save money five or 10 years down the line, applies as much as to whether it's KCC or unitary. You're still
21:52looking after people. You're still getting that early treatment. You're getting that early... spotting those
21:57early signs of distress or of loneliness. You're getting that early... that early warning sign saves a
22:05fortune and is so much better for people. And it doesn't matter five, 10 years down, whether or not it's
22:10unitary or KCC. It's the people that matter.
22:13And Mike is right, because if you look at the Labour government previously, they introduced Sure Start. And that
22:19was probably one of the best things that this country has ever done. And yet it was trashed as soon as the
22:25coalition came in, in 2010. And it's the early intervention that would stop things like the antisocial
22:32behaviour we're seeing now. So there is a correlation between the investment in people and communities and
22:40what's occurring today.
22:41Obviously, we've seen all the controversy around seashells in Sheerness as one of the big examples of
22:46that, a real pillar of the community in one of Kent's most deprived areas. And it does raise a question as
22:53well, because it's not just KCC. It's also Swellborough Council that's investing in services, support. But for
23:03local authorities, our lower tier, it's also gonna be a hard couple of years that they're gonna face
23:07increasingly tough financial pressures, rumours that in the next few years, many of them could face
23:13bankruptcy without serious levels of support. Rich, I want to go to you on this one first. Is that something
23:17that worries you that Swellborough Council could be next on the chopping block without some sort of
23:22extraordinary support from government?
23:24I would say Swellborough Council isn't close to that yet. We won't be next. It may be three or four years down
23:30the line, but then devolution may change that. Some of the more resilience actually comes from the parish and
23:37downtown councils, the people right down on the coalface of dealing with residents' issues.
23:43And what about you, Mike, on this issue? It's a big one for lots of councils here in North Kent.
23:50I think on Swale, we did start to show how a lot could be achieved with little money. For the first four
23:59years of the coalition, there was a lot of that going on. It stalled a bit after the 23 elections. The Swale
24:08independents were the ones coming forward with ideas, positive ideas, which were being blocked. But we're
24:15slowly seeing them come through things like community lottery, so that we can get more money into these
24:21local groups. A loneliness project isn't expensive, but it's building up resilience in local people and local
24:29communities, so you're not having these people isolated. Things like that don't need a lot of money, but what
24:36they need is the willingness to work with other people, the willingness to go out into the community and actually
24:42talk to people. And I think that is something that over the last few years, governments and councils just
24:49haven't been doing. They're just struggling to get by, and there's been no vision. We don't have a vision at
24:54KCC. We have a Labour government that doesn't have a vision, and we're lacking vision on local levels as well,
25:01because people are just going from mouth to mouth. We need to bring back visions, we need to bring back positive
25:08politics, and people won't like this, but I think the last positive politician that we had was Boris Johnson. He
25:18spoke the country up. He had vision, he wanted to do things, he got people behind him because he was behind the
25:24country.
25:25But there's a lot of words with Boris Johnson, not a lot of substance as well with his big criticism, a lot of optimism,
25:30getting Brexit done, but not really thinking through the details.
25:34He did get hit by COVID, and even during COVID, eat out to help out. There was all these investments, and OK, some of
25:42them were rather abused by some people, but it was putting money into the economy, putting money into people so
25:47they could grow. That's what we haven't seen. We haven't seen that under the coalition for Lib Dem Tories, we
25:56haven't seen that under Tories, we aren't seeing it under Labour now. That's what we're missing. We're missing
26:01positivity.
26:02And obviously one of Nigel Farage's big identifiers is the fact that he is a populist. He does make a positive vision.
26:10But do you think there's kind of a disconnect in the moment between populism and policy here?
26:14No, I think the problem is, going back to Boris Johnson, he does talk a good talk, but he never delivers what he
26:20talks about. And that is the problem. A lot of people, if you look at the results of elections, the Red Wall, the
26:28traditional Labour voters always seem to be turning to reform. They were the ones turning to UKIP. And they are
26:35generally saying we are fed up, we are let down. And if you look at where...
26:40I'm going to have to cut you off there because we don't have much time left. But thank you so much for coming in
26:44today to discuss all the big issues in Swale and Kent. We'll see you next week with more news and views. Take care.