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~~~~~
Video Information: 24.01.23, Peta Interview (online), Greater Noida
Context:
Acharya Prashant received the Most Influential Vegan award from PETA. Here he is in conversation with PETA CEO Ingrid Newkirk.
PETA USA: https://www.youtube.com/@peta/videos
PETA India: https://www.youtube.com/@officialPETA...
~ What is the solution to climate change?
~ How spirituality can stop the climate change?
~ Climate change have no scientific solution
~ How veganism is related to compassion?
~ Why veganism is necessary for today's generation?
~ What is the relation between veganism and climate change?
~ How could veganism change the world?
~ What is the relation between Vedanta and veganism?
~ Why should one respect all forms of consciousness?
~ How to go beyond ones' physical nature?
Music Credits: Milind Date
~~~~~
#acharyaprashant
Be a part of the Live Sessions: https://acharyaprashant.org/hi/enquiry-gita-course?cmId=m00026
📚 Want to read Acharya Prashant's Books?
Get Free Delivery: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/books?cmId=m00026
📝 Read 3 handpicked wisdom articles, just for you: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/articles?cmId=m00026
~~~~~
Video Information: 24.01.23, Peta Interview (online), Greater Noida
Context:
Acharya Prashant received the Most Influential Vegan award from PETA. Here he is in conversation with PETA CEO Ingrid Newkirk.
PETA USA: https://www.youtube.com/@peta/videos
PETA India: https://www.youtube.com/@officialPETA...
~ What is the solution to climate change?
~ How spirituality can stop the climate change?
~ Climate change have no scientific solution
~ How veganism is related to compassion?
~ Why veganism is necessary for today's generation?
~ What is the relation between veganism and climate change?
~ How could veganism change the world?
~ What is the relation between Vedanta and veganism?
~ Why should one respect all forms of consciousness?
~ How to go beyond ones' physical nature?
Music Credits: Milind Date
~~~~~
#acharyaprashant
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00What's the big deal about veganism?
00:08Why veganism?
00:09Why should we even be concerned about veganism?
00:13And Acharya Prashant, if you could share your thoughts, and then Ingrid, if you could share
00:18your thoughts, and then we can just let the conversation flow.
00:21Hello, Ingrid, and hi, Darius, and yes, glad to be in this conversation.
00:31Why veganism?
00:32You see, veganism is very fundamentally related to the very definition of being a human being.
00:46I'm going to the extent of saying that we have animals, we have so many species of all
00:54kinds of beings, and then there are the Homo sapiens sapiens.
01:02So veganism is in one sense the qualifier.
01:09That's what makes human beings into a species that is fundamentally different from others.
01:18Now how is that?
01:21You see, when you are an animal, or any other life form, a tree or something, or an insect
01:28or bird, your entire constitution, your life is dictated by your biological programming.
01:40So you are configured and constrained to eat as per your biological design, to decide,
01:54choose, move, eat, sleep, mate, just as you have been configured by evolution, by biology,
02:06by your body.
02:09How are human beings different?
02:10Human beings are fundamentally different because they are to live not by their body, but by
02:18their consciousness.
02:22So let's then look at the definition of an animal.
02:24An animal is one who lives by the body.
02:30And a human being is one who lives by consciousness.
02:36And you are a human being and you, if you respect consciousness much more than the body
02:46which is material.
02:49So human beings are defined by the respect that they hold towards consciousness compared
02:57to the body.
03:00So we are not obliged to do something just because we can biologically do it.
03:05So for example, a lot of people say that because we can digest meat and because we have certain
03:11teeth that are supposed to be useful in cutting meat, therefore that proves that we can be
03:22meat-eaters.
03:23No.
03:24Our life, our choices are to be determined by our consciousness, we respect consciousness.
03:34And if we respect consciousness, we cannot kill it anywhere it exists.
03:41We cannot hurt it, harm it.
03:43We have to rather nurture it.
03:46We have to love it.
03:48And that's what veganism is about.
03:50Wherever there is consciousness, respect it.
03:54Do not exploit it.
03:58There is consciousness in the bird, in the fish, in the animal, in the tree.
04:04Especially in the human beings, respect that consciousness when you are slaughtering an
04:10animal for food or medicine or leather or whatever or fun or just even exploiting it
04:19or hurting it, then you are valuing body over consciousness.
04:27And if you value body more than consciousness, then you are not a human being at all.
04:33Therefore veganism to me is very central to the very definition of a human being.
04:39I'll go so far as to say if you're not a vegan, you don't qualify to be called a human being.
04:47And that's not a dogma.
04:48I'm coming from a very logical, well thought out position.
04:54So that's what veganism is to me, essential humanity.
05:01I agree with so much of what you've said and I wanted to also thank you for all the
05:06work that your foundation has done because one of the things about veganism to me is
05:15that it's against all violence.
05:18It's against all exploitation.
05:21It's against all harming and prejudice and all these bad things that human beings seem
05:28to fall into.
05:31And so you have done wonderful things that have affected many different species, including
05:37human women.
05:39So thank you for all that.
05:42I do believe there is a principle that should be followed and that is that we don't want
05:51to be discriminating and exploiting and harming and hurting anyone.
06:00It doesn't really matter what colour they are, what age they are, what gender they are,
06:05what species they are.
06:07If they're a living being, then we can either bully them, hurt them, kill them or respect
06:15them and be considerate of them.
06:19And certainly we can't eat them, which is a very odd thing that we have decided over
06:26time to do, to take a breathing, thinking, feeling person and end their life, cut them
06:36into bits, let the blood drain out and then stick them in our mouths.
06:41It's just incredible.
06:42Wonderful.
06:43And we shouldn't steal from them either and wear the skin they were born in.
06:48We shouldn't use them as if they are tools in laboratories to pour chemicals down their
06:54throats and we certainly shouldn't take them away from their natural lives and chain them
07:00up and use them in circuses and temples and who knows what, just because we feel like
07:05it.
07:06That is supremacism.
07:07And I think you and I, all of us who are vegans are against supremacism.
07:13Wonderful.
07:14Very well said.
07:16And there's a very interesting word you used, person.
07:21What constitutes a person is something that we must take to the population in general.
07:27What is the definition of a person?
07:30Because in general, we define a person as a human being.
07:37If you are a human male, a human female, you qualify to be called a person.
07:42But if I call a parrot a person, that would sound weird to a few, cute to a few others,
07:50but normal to very few.
07:54So a person, if we could see that a person is defined not by his or her body or the species,
08:08but by the mere presence of consciousness.
08:13Consciousness, the moment it becomes the qualifying criteria, our decisions immediately change.
08:21But for that, first of all, we need to have a certain love and respect for consciousness.
08:30And that's the reason, this little foundation here, obviously, Peeta has done great, remarkable
08:38path-breaking work and it's several decades old and I truly, deeply appreciate what Peeta
08:45has been doing since a long time now, worldwide, also in India.
08:52Our foundation is comparatively a nascent one.
08:56And it's the consciousness root that we are taking.
09:00So that's the reason why when we work for animals, we find we are working for all beings
09:12that exist, because they all are conscious.
09:15And we find that if we really have to work for animals, then honesty demands that we
09:20work for all exploited sections that exist on the planet, be it those who are racially
09:29oppressed or women or people who are misled in whichever way, and that brings a kind of
09:39integrity to our work, a central axis.
09:45If you are conscious, then you deserve my respect, because my own welfare lies in me
09:54being able to respect consciousness.
09:58Why do I suffer?
09:59Why does any human being suffer?
10:01Because we forget that we are just not the body.
10:05The body has its own games, its own agendas.
10:09I have my purposes that are separate from the purposes of the body.
10:14For example, the body might want to sleep, I might not necessarily agree, the body might
10:21want to eat or jump around, or the body in a certain stage of life might demand procreation.
10:28And I do not extend my consent to all that, I am not the body, so I'm not obliged to always
10:35conquer with the body.
10:37The moment I see I am consciousness, something very magical happens, wherever consciousness
10:45is seen, it becomes an expression of who I am.
10:51How can I kill myself then?
10:53I look at the rabbit, and in the rabbit's eyes, there is nothing different from what
10:59is there in my eyes.
11:01Alright, the shine might be different, the form might be different, but the essential
11:06characteristic is the same.
11:07I do not want to die.
11:09The consciousness here says, well, there is more to explore, more to achieve, probably
11:14there is something called liberation that is still left.
11:18So there is a certain hunger in my eyes, I see a certain hunger in the rabbit's eyes
11:22as well.
11:23Well, the rabbit might not be demanding liberation, it might just be asking for a carrot.
11:28But there is that desire there.
11:31So in killing the rabbit, I am killing a part of myself, something very similar to myself.
11:35I could even say I am killing myself when I kill anybody.
11:38If I hurt someone, I am hurting myself.
11:43That's the route and the position that we are taking.
11:47And to our surprise, it's been cutting eyes.
11:50In a short period of time, there have been people, really tough nuts, and chronic meat
11:58eaters for whatever reasons, and they have just been able to come around and do things.
12:09But equally, the state of treatment towards animals in India has been deteriorating.
12:20India has traditionally been home to the largest number of vegetarians in the world.
12:26But now only around 30%, less than 30% of the population is vegetarian.
12:31So violence towards animals is on the rise.
12:37And insensitivity is rife, especially among the younger people.
12:45You're trying to fight it out, let's see.
12:47I think part of it though, isn't it, is that there is this desire among many young people
12:54to emulate what they believe is the Western world, whether it's blue jeans or it's music
13:01or movies, and that can have a very bad influence.
13:06And so I remember going to a wedding in Maryland, in the US, and there was an Indian couple,
13:14maybe about 40 years old there, and we sat at the same table, and we hadn't gone to the
13:20buffet yet.
13:22And I said, Oh, are you vegetarian?
13:25And both of them said, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not vegetarian.
13:29And you think, I know you are, I said, Well, we are, meaning my partner and I, we're vegetarian,
13:36I thought you might be and she said, Well, we usually are.
13:40And I thought you were trying to adjust thinking that I might find something wrong with you
13:47being vegetarian.
13:49That's a very sad state of affairs.
13:52And what's interesting to me is that the West is moving around the circle and coming back
14:00to the position that we shouldn't eat animals, and that we shouldn't steal from animals.
14:05You know, the milk that the mother cow makes for her baby, her beloved baby.
14:12When you talk about consciousness, I always think of the look in those eyes of that mother
14:20who is watching her baby being taken away.
14:24So some human animal can steal the milk and put it as ghee or butter or cheese or whatever
14:31it is.
14:33In the West, there is a growing awareness and maybe some of this is for animals out
14:40of concern.
14:41And some of it is because of all the devastating information we have been bombarded with about
14:48the ill effects of animal milk, eggs, meat on human health.
14:55So a selfish reason comes in there.
14:57And also because people know they should be caring about the environment, even if they
15:04don't really care, they know they should care.
15:07And they are hearing that animal-based agriculture worldwide is taking our water resources, taking
15:14our land resources, cutting down the rainforest.
15:18So the consciousness is really in all these different ways, isn't it, of intellectual,
15:25of thought, and of awareness and of information.
15:29On the animal side, I think we can see they're all conscious.
15:33You can just look into those eyes and see fear in the slaughterhouse, terrible fear,
15:39wide eyes, petrified.
15:42But most of the time, they don't get choices.
15:45The rabbit can't have the carrot, the mother cow can't have her baby because they're dominated
15:53by the human species that doesn't think beyond what it wants itself.
15:58And I think your work in saying, look at yourself, you are more than your interests, your pleasures.
16:07You are a thoughtful, conscious being, act like one is very, very important.
16:15And also, what is happening is, in the Indian context, especially, cultural reasons succeeded
16:25in keeping a vast majority of Indians vegetarian, if not vegan, since centuries, compared to
16:35other parts of the world, cruelty towards animals or other life forms in India was lesser.
16:49To what extent, we might speculate, but certainly, India was kinder towards life forms still recently.
16:59The only problem is, the reasons were just cultural.
17:04And culture is man-made, so culture can change, culture is time-bound, culture changes.
17:10As you pointed out, the Indian youth, the Asian youth, in fact, youth all over the world,
17:18they look at the West as their idol.
17:26And they want to emulate the Western culture because the image of the West is that of a
17:32successful and wealthy and powerful man.
17:36And who does not want to go after success and wealth and power?
17:40So that's what Indians have also been doing.
17:42They look at the West and say, wow, that's where you have real power and money.
17:47So they emulate the culture also and that's where the cultural reasons meet their limits.
17:54If you are being vegan or vegetarian, just because that's what goes in your family, in
18:01your tradition, or in your religion, then that won't take you very far.
18:07Cultures will change.
18:08Some other culture will come and eclipse your current culture.
18:13Then higher than the cultural reason is the biological reason.
18:19Because this comes from within the organism.
18:23This does not come from the family, from tradition, from someone else, from the society.
18:28So for example, when I look at a stray dog, and there is a feeling of empathy that arises.
18:37Without even knowing why I am empathetic, I want to do something for the dog.
18:42It's cold these days.
18:44So we want to take care of a few puppies that live close to our place.
18:52And we want to take care of them.
18:53We do not necessarily know the origins of that feeling.
18:57But still we want to do something.
18:59And that I take as higher than the cultural reason because the feeling is mine to a greater
19:05extent.
19:06The culture is not really mine.
19:07The culture is a borrowed thing or an inherited thing.
19:10But the feeling arises from within me.
19:13And so the feeling works in a far better way and in a deeper way than the culture.
19:21India has been losing out due to the erosion of its culture.
19:27Feelings will help.
19:29But what really works is understanding.
19:33And that is the spiritual reason.
19:35So cultural, emotional, and then spiritual.
19:38When one really, really knows what it means to live, who one is, and what his relationship
19:48with the world is, then it becomes impossible to really hate someone or be insensitive to
19:57someone.
19:59And then it's also not just about eating animals or hurting animals.
20:08One starts living from a different center.
20:12And there is a total change in personality.
20:16One, you know, it's a thing that will probably make you smile.
20:20One becomes vegan even without knowing it.
20:24We witness that daily and I'm enjoying sharing it with you.
20:28There are so many people in our vicinity, in the field of our work.
20:34They have become vegan.
20:37They don't even know that they are vegans.
20:41And that I take as a very innocent and beautiful example of real veganism.
20:48Veganism arising from the heart.
20:51Veganism not as a concept borrowed from somewhere, but as a living thing that has just sprouted
20:57from your very center.
20:59You know, you have come to realize what the curd is made of and where it comes from.
21:05You have just seen those things and now you just can't do it.
21:12It's impossible.
21:13Even if you want to, you can't do it.
21:16I have seen instances.
21:21We had a long period of lockdown here at the time of COVID-19, 2020, a few months in 2021
21:31as well.
21:33So there were patches in which even medicines were not available.
21:41So we had a couple of cases in the foundation.
21:44The B12 levels went down and that happens once every few months.
21:53It happens that you get yourself checked and find that B12 is borderline.
21:57So we just take organic supplements and they are very easily available and you take the
22:02supplement for a month and you are okay.
22:04Because of the lockdown, even the supplements are not available.
22:10It didn't even occur to people to consume dairy or anything because supplements are
22:17not available.
22:18They didn't declare it, but that's what they were de facto saying.
22:22We would rather die than hurt someone.
22:28They didn't make it dramatic and announce it in so many words.
22:33It remained subtle, but if you look at it, that's what they were practically saying.
22:39Let the B12 levels dip if they have to.
22:41We would prefer to go, but we just cannot bear hurting someone anymore.
22:50That's the magic of spiritual veganism.
22:56I think the world will have to come around to that.
22:58You talked of environmental influences, you talked of climate change.
23:02All these things, to me, they go together.
23:07Climate action, protection of species going extinct, antinatalism, minimalism, veganism.
23:20These go together and if the planet is to be saved, there is no option except the bundle
23:29of these five.
23:30At the center of these five, to me, lies spirituality and that's the route we are taking.
23:44Success has been mixed, it's just that the reach has to greatly increase.
23:52We have been pretty successful in the territory we have been able to cover.
23:58The problem is that we have not been able to cover a huge territory.
24:03First of all, we are limited to India, secondly, even in India, because we are relatively nascent,
24:09so our reach is still limited compared to the work that needs to be done.
24:15I think per month we are reaching out to less than 40 to 50 million people, but much more
24:25needs to be done, otherwise the very existence of the planet, I do not see how far we are going.
24:31I think everything we do is vital and you never know what's going to work, because everybody
24:40is affected in a different way.
24:42Some people care about one thing, some people don't care about that, but they care about
24:46something else.
24:48So our approach is a scattershot approach.
24:51We'll try humor, we'll try seriousness, we'll try shock, and by shock I mean we show reality.
24:59It's not that we invent this, it's we show the photographs and the videos of what actually
25:05happens and that is a shock.
25:08I think one of the US presidents once said, you know, people are attacking me for what
25:16I say.
25:17All I do is I tell the truth and that is people are so shocked by it that they attack me.
25:25But I think we have to be vigorous.
25:28We have to never be timid, never hold back, and never think that changing ourselves is
25:36enough.
25:37I think that's what the foundation is so good at, because you say it's not about me, it's
25:43not about my family, it's not about, you know, it's about everybody.
25:50Most of us, and I speak for myself, no matter how vegan we are, we've done so many things
25:58from the time we were born that hurt animals and hurt others that we can never make up
26:03for it.
26:04I can think back to many things that I'm ashamed of now and had no idea at the time.
26:11When I was in India, I always said to my mother, I want to ride the Tonga.
26:17I never wanted to take my bicycle.
26:20I wanted to have the horse because I loved horses and didn't realize how I was putting
26:27that poor animal through this strain for my amusement.
26:31I think we all have this baggage and so it's not enough for us to stop eating and wearing
26:38and using animals.
26:41We have an obligation to undo some of the bad that we've done and to go out and share
26:48what we have learned with other people.
26:51There's a saying about, you know, who opens your eyes?
26:57And I think our obligation is to open as many hearts and minds and eyes as we possibly can.
27:04So we create this enormous force and people should not be hesitant about that.
27:10Why are people scared to talk to other people about being vegan?
27:16What is that about?
27:18You see, it's a question of what one values.
27:24I've thought over it a little, tried to examine it.
27:29What is it that I value?
27:32Do I value the appreciation of the other, the approval of the other, the things that
27:39flow to me if I just toe the line of the other or do I value love?
27:49Do I value compassion?
27:52Because obviously there are benefits that come from not speaking up, not coming out.
27:59I might be a vegan, but I keep that to myself and I allow myself a moral green card.
28:05I have done well.
28:06I am a vegan.
28:07I am not hurting anybody.
28:08What do I do if my neighbors are all very violent people?
28:11I have not caused that.
28:12I can do all that.
28:15All that stops when I say that if I know of it, that alone is sufficient to make it my
28:28responsibility.
28:31Also it is my responsibility to know more and more.
28:37It's my responsibility to know more and more of what's going on outside and inside.
28:44And once I know of something, if I still don't act, if I don't own up things, then I am a
28:51big hypocrite.
28:53So that sense, that responsibility, not responsibility, that love has to be awakened.
29:02And if that love is not awakened, I see, I just do not see our own species surviving.
29:13It's possible that other species somehow manage to survive, at least a few of them, but this
29:17one won't.
29:20Because we have just gone bonkers.
29:24The way we are consuming, we just cannot afford the level of consumption that we have along
29:35with the levels of populations that we have.
29:39If I talk of India, we recently became the most populous country in the world.
29:48And these 140 crore or so people want to have the same level of per capita consumption
29:58as a German or an American.
30:02Now that's a very violent kind of multiplication.
30:09The quantity of Indians multiplied by the per capita consumption of Americans.
30:16There is no way even a dozen earths can sustain that.
30:24And all of that is linked to veganism.
30:28It would be great if we could have a basic research, seeing the average number of children
30:38that vegans have, the average consumption levels of vegans, for example, in terms of
30:45fuel consumption, electricity consumption, steel consumption, garment consumption, water
30:51consumption and see that once you are vegan, chances are that you are more pro-life.
31:03Pro-life in general, and you're not just being kind towards animals.
31:07It's not just about your attitude and behavior and relationship with animals.
31:12You just become more human and you become more survivable, more sustainable.
31:24I could go on and say we could talk of terrorism, we could talk of sectarianism, totalitarianism,
31:36all kinds of bad things and isms that are plaguing us today.
31:42We could figure out a relationship how the solution has a synonym called veganism.
31:53If I say veganism is the solution to terrorism, that will sound absurd, obviously, but whatsoever
31:58is the solution to terrorism, veganism is its synonym.
32:06So these have to go together if you are with the planet, if you are with everybody who
32:11is on this planet, if you are with basic sensibility, with consciousness, you have to be a vegan
32:21and you cannot be a vegan and say I have four kids.
32:25Every new kid that takes birth today is definitely going to cause great loss to a large number
32:36of species.
32:37The earth just cannot afford more people.
32:40So veganism has to go hand in hand with antinatalism.
32:46You cannot be a vegan couple and say we want to have lots of kids, that's like indirectly
32:53killing so many animals and several other choices as well.
33:00You cannot be a vegan, for example, and be full of hatred towards human beings because
33:06sooner than later if you are hateful, that hatred will spill over to animals and birds
33:15and fish as well.
33:16It would already be there and just that you don't know.
33:20I consume a lot of steel, for example, I want a mansion for myself and we all know where
33:26steel comes from.
33:29We all know the relationship of steel with flowing water bodies.
33:35You cannot be a vegan and still be a huge fan of palaces and mansions and brick and
33:42mortar and say I want the biggest house possible on this planet.
33:48That's not veganism.
33:49So veganism in that sense, probably the time has come to give it a broader definition,
33:56a broader definition with a more clearly defined center and that might just help more people
34:05to relate with it and understand what's going on.
34:08Otherwise still, at least that's the scene in India, people think of veganism as something
34:13to do with food.
34:17If you don't eat something, you are vegan.
34:23Vegans are those who exclude certain food items from their diet.
34:27Now that's such a restrictive definition of veganism, even as you would say diet in the
34:34wool vegans, they would talk of veganism as diet and clothes and maybe attitude towards
34:44animals.
34:45Okay.
34:46I find a stray dog limping.
34:47I give it some medical care.
34:48So I'm a vegan.
34:50Again, that to me, that's a bit narrow.
34:53I'm sure you two have been thinking about it and would throw some light on it.
34:59But to me, that's very restrictive and also that limits its appeal.
35:05And also that's what makes people less empowered.
35:13You talked of hesitation that people feel in coming out, the vigor that they lack.
35:18Actually, this is why, if I can see that my friend over here, if he's not vegan, he
35:25cannot be a proper human being, then I'll be impelled to do something about it if I
35:31have any kind of relationship with him.
35:34But if I say, you know, he's already a nice man, just that he eats meat, just that he
35:42loves his coffee, milk coffee, but otherwise he's a great man.
35:48Then I don't know how I'll be incentivized to again and again question him, poke him,
35:56probe him.
35:57I will feel no incentive.
36:00I need to be told that if he is not vegan, there is something very essential missing
36:07in his humanness.
36:09Something very essential.
36:10And if it's essential, then he's not even human.
36:13If the very essence is missing, how are you even human then?
36:18Now, that's what will really rankle me up and push me towards constructive or disruptive,
36:26whatever kind of action.
36:27And a lot of times even disruptive action is needed.
36:31The videos that PETA makes, we have made good use of them and watching the pics, sending
36:40the videos over to people who say that, well, you know, yes, cruelty is there, but cruelty
36:48is everywhere and there is limited cruelty.
36:51Some of the videos from PETA, we have been doing it since years now, in fact.
36:59In fact, I came across some of the activism that you have personally undertaken and those
37:06pics and yes, yes, as you said, they are disruptive and people need to be shocked and that's what
37:15makes them think otherwise we are just too well adjusted in our existing ways.
37:23We feel all is okay.
37:25That misplaced confidence is killing the animals and also our species.
37:31But what you said, so many things that I would riff off because I can't help but agree with
37:37them.
37:38And I think most interesting to me is that while India is perhaps departing from this
37:46wonderful concept of Ahimsa, I mean, there can be nothing better.
37:52A true vegan, vegan means Ahimsa in its proper meaning because as you say, it's not just
38:00about this dog or this food or this jacket or it's about an understanding of nonviolence.
38:10It's an understanding of respect.
38:12It's an understanding of consideration.
38:14It's about love, if you will, I mean, you don't have to love, but you have to be considerate
38:21and respectful.
38:23Recently, when we were talking about people being afraid to say something when they really
38:29must, they really must, everything depends on people speaking out and you never know
38:35what's going to stick and what isn't going to stick.
38:39What you know is if you say nothing, nothing is going to stick.
38:44So recently I was in Mumbai just for a little while and I did a demonstration by taking
38:51a public shower.
38:52It was all very modest.
38:53It was just the illusion that it was a public shower.
38:57And people criticized me on Twitter and they said, you know, why is she doing this?
39:05Why can't they just threw rocks at me?
39:08And I thought it doesn't matter because if one person thought about it and took in that
39:16message that the whole world is in trouble because just a little meat meal is the equivalent
39:26amount of water as showering for a whole week, it's that much, facing drought, India is facing
39:35more drought than almost anybody except Africa, you know, it is a critical thing.
39:41They said, why doesn't she do this in Europe?
39:44Why doesn't she do this in the United States?
39:46How dare she do this in India?
39:48And I thought, well, India needs to hear this lesson.
39:52I also do it in the US.
39:54I also do it in Europe.
39:56The world needs to hear this lesson and the Europe and the US are using more water than
40:04anybody in India, but India will bear the consequences.
40:09So we all need to do as much as we can and share our information with each other so we
40:16can save ourselves collectively, look after each other as brothers and sisters collectively
40:24and break down these barriers of nationalism, genderism, all these isms that are the wrong
40:30isms that are separating us from each other.
40:35And instead of, when you hear a new idea, putting up a barrier and responding with hate
40:44and venom, we need to try to break that down and say, I'm just talking to you about something
40:52I heard, a fact I know.
40:55I didn't always know this.
40:56I'm grateful that someone showed me these things and I am sharing them with you.
41:03So together, independently if you like, we can change the world into being a kinder place.
41:12As someone once said, a famous person whose name I can never get right, said there are
41:18three things in life that are important.
41:21The first is to be kind, the second is to be kind and the third is to be kind.
41:27And if you are kind, that's really all you ever need to do to get through life as a decent
41:34person.
41:35I honestly believe that, perhaps you do too.
41:39I'm first of all, not just glad, but actually grateful that you did that in India, in Bombay.
41:48India needs disruptive activism of the kind you espouse and I really wish that you and
41:59Peeta do much more of that, irrespective of the criticism or even hate that comes your
42:06way.
42:07I'm sure all of us are strong enough to take that for the sake of several little beings
42:16and big beings and human beings.
42:20So I'm sure we'll happily take that and yes, things are going down in India, hate and intolerance
42:31and dogmatism of all kinds and I'm sure you know about all of that.
42:40So all that is going hand in hand.
42:44Why are you telling this to us?
42:46Go and tell this to the Europeans and the Americans or why are you telling this to the
42:50Hindus?
42:51Go and tell the same thing to the Muslims or why are you saying these things on our
42:55festivals?
42:56Go and tell this to the other community on their festival.
43:00So these things are happening and all that is essentially, even more tragic in great
43:08because one of the greatest Indic religions is veganism.
43:17You know, another name for Jainism is veganism and that's not me saying that.
43:26You visit a Jain scholar and he would very gladly say that the Jain philosophy and the
43:35Jain code of conduct is just so close to veganism and Jainism, it is so old that just
43:47as a thought, as a stream of thought, it is believed to be older than even Hinduism and
43:54Hinduism in itself is a very, very old religion.
44:00So India is that kind of land where spirituality meant Ahimsa, wisdom meant nonviolence.
44:12There is no name that can be used to sum up all spirituality better than the name Ahimsa
44:25and all kinds of unfortunate things are now happening in India.
44:32Chicken consumption is, India is the fastest growing market for chicken consumption now
44:43and hearts should bleed on hearing this kind of a statistic when there are many countries
44:53where actually chicken consumption or pork or meat that's going down.
45:00India of all places is where it is rising.
45:03So that's extremely unfortunate and yes, it's inevitable that in the coming years Peeta
45:09will have to focus more and more energy on India because this is where action is needed
45:16more and more.
45:20You very rightly put that the West is coming full circle now, 360 degree, they are coming
45:29to realize that plant-based diets are superior when it comes to health, that vegan lifestyle
45:39is far better when it comes to mental health, they are seeing all those things but India
45:44is going in some other direction.
45:47So a lot of things need to be done here.
45:50Now this was the tragic part of the thing, the encouraging part of the thing is India
45:57already has a fertile soil when it comes to non-violence.
46:04Even the most violent person here at least conceptually knows that he is doing a wrong
46:11thing and that he is a sinner.
46:14Even if you kill an ant, you have done something you shouldn't have done, that Indians instinctively
46:21know it's in the air, it's in the soil, we know that, just that we know that as a concept,
46:30we know that as a thing of culture, we don't understand where it is coming from.
46:37So when I said that five things go together and I don't know four or five, antinatalism,
46:44animalism, veganism, this, this, this, this, this, you know, another thing that can be
46:49very importantly added to this is revival of true religiosity.
46:58Now I don't know how that would sound to you, but that should not sound very weird when
47:05you consider that I said that Jainism is de facto veganism and the Ahimsa core of Jainism
47:15is something it shares with Hinduism and Buddhism.
47:22So if the true essence of religiosity can be invoked, that would go a long distance
47:34towards making veganism easier.
47:38And when I say religion, I obviously do not mean the organized kind of religion in which
47:43the church, the temples, the priests, they become dominant and codes of conduct are enforced.
47:53Of course, I hope I'm not invoking the Taliban in your mind.
47:56I'm not talking of that kind of religiosity.
48:00I'm talking of, what should I say, essential spirituality, the search for one's own existence,
48:08one's own identity.
48:09Who am I?
48:10Why do I exist?
48:11Those kinds of questions, more philosophical than ritualistic, more inquiry based than
48:21dogmatic.
48:23So if the moment that comes, especially in India, if people can see what the essence
48:29of religion is, for example, what Vedanta says, now Advaita Vedanta is the crown jewel
48:38among all Indian philosophies and Advaita is a word that I repeatedly tell my readers
48:45and listeners.
48:46Advaita is a word that can be very, very correctly translated as Ahimsa.
48:53Non-duality and non-violence are much the same thing.
48:59But only if we could have the right definition of duality and violence.
49:05As long as we just go by social culture and popular definitions, violence is when you
49:12hurt the other.
49:14The moment it comes to you, just as an idea, that violence is when you do not see that
49:23you and the other have a shared consciousness.
49:27Violence is when you create an otherness with the other, when you make the other as an entity
49:34totally separate from you, that's when violence starts.
49:37And when those things start happening, veganism just blooms like a wildflower, unplanted.
49:47Nobody planted it, nobody nurtured it, nobody seeded it, nobody put the fertilizers or anything.
49:55It just happens, it just happens and humbly I would like to say we have seen modest success.
50:08The proportion of people who are associated with us turning vegan is very high.
50:17It's just that we need more and more people to whom the message can reach, but once the
50:23message reaches, the probability that the person will turn vegan is unimaginably high.
50:32I won't say 80% or 100%, but very high.
50:37I won't be surprised if it's close to 20-25%.
50:42And turning a vegan in India is made difficult by the doodh dahi culture, especially in North India.
50:54So if we find that out of every five people who get to be associated with us for a significant
51:04period, at least one is turning vegan, I feel encouraged and I just want to just push the
51:11accelerator and go for vigorous action, as you said, and make the message reach as many
51:19people as possible. We don't have time, we just don't have time. So it has to be swift.
51:25I was curious that you raised Jainism because when I was in school, all the children were
51:36always asked, what would you like to be when you grow up? And they would say a ballerina,
51:41an astronaut. And I would say, I want to be a Jain, because I always thought the values of
51:47Jainism was so wonderful. I do go sometimes before the pandemic to give talks at Jain
51:56conferences, Jaina in US. And I feel now since Guru Chitra Banerjee has died, that it's my
52:06obligation, again, there's that word, my responsibility to do all I can to ask Jains
52:15particularly to be true to Ahimsa. Because at the conferences, it's the dude culture that
52:21comes to the fore again. And you see long lines for the creamy desserts, and the milky this,
52:29that and the other, and very short lines for the vegan food. And I think, come on now, all of us
52:38have religious values or values, ethical values that we say we believe in. Now we have to be
52:45strong and curb these carnal instincts that we have, these bodily desires that we have,
52:54because they pass. You eat something, you're full. You don't then say, Oh, I wish I had such
53:00and such, you're full. So at these conferences, I'm always saying, come on, look at the mother cow,
53:07look at the baby who sometimes they take away and stuff, they kill, they stuff, they let him starve,
53:13they don't do it with their own hand, but they do. And stuff him with straw, and put him near his
53:19mother, so the mother thinks she's making milk for this dead child. Look, we cannot for a moment
53:26on your lips, you cannot allow this to happen. So those values of religion, of ethics, of morals,
53:35of showing as you say, that we are more than bodily functions, we are thinking, feeling,
53:44sentient being with things we can do to make the world a better place. I think Christian,
53:51Buddhist, Jain, Hindu, it doesn't matter. We are all in this together, and we must do our best.
53:57And we must talk to as many people as we possibly can about doing our best.
54:02Especially in India, if you can have a dialogue with Jain scholars,
54:12serious Vedantis, and Buddhist leaders, I'm so sure that they'll easily lend their support and
54:24veganism actually is at the forefront of ethics. It is at the forefront of ethics. And the problem
54:35that veganism is tackling is essentially a philosophical problem, even a religious problem.
54:46What is man's relationship with the universe, with the sentient universe? What is a human
54:55being's relationship with the sentient universe? It's a question. It's a very important question
55:01in philosophy that veganism is very successfully answering. So if we engage with streams that have
55:11a philosophical base, like Vedanta, like Buddhism, like Jainism, surely the scholars would be willing
55:20to come on board and help raise awareness. And once, at least in India, the population sees that
55:27there is a moral edge to being a vegan. Moral edge approved by religion. So religious morality.
55:38So there is a moral edge to being a vegan. More and more people would want to join in. And yes,
55:50a lot needs to be done. And let's see, at least this particular conversation would go to,
56:02obviously from the PETA side to the PETA channels and to our channel. And there if
56:10I estimate one in every three, four or five videos deals directly with veganism.
56:19And the remaining two, three, four videos out of five, where I'm not directly talking of veganism,
56:24then there are indirect oblique references. I would, for example, if I have to give an example
56:30of cruelty, I would be given the example of a cow or the same kind of example that you just gave.
56:36You know, the cow and the calf and the stuffed body and the milk making machine she's turned into
56:42and enforced insemination and all those things. So doing our bit and let's see how it turns out.
56:54The religious angle, just one last bit from my side because it just occurred to me, I thought I
57:04would add it. The religious angle is all the more important when you have an uphill climb like this
57:12one. So in the Bhagavad Gita, Shri Krishna, his central philosophy is Nishkama Karma. Do the
57:20right thing and don't think of the consequences. So two things. One, do only the right thing
57:27to the best of your ability. Find out what is selflessly right. So figure it out and then
57:34plunge yourself into it and then don't be too bothered about the consequences. So when you
57:42have taken up a mission like veganism, like Peeta, I think the philosophy of Krishna
57:54becomes really indispensable. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Ingrid.
58:01My pleasure. Thank you both for this very wonderful session. I think it could have gone on
58:07for a lot longer and I think there are lots of avenues where we could
58:11regroup and have the discussion again. I heard the JNNR conference, I heard Vedant, I heard
58:18disruption, lots of good things. So let's keep this going and thank you both for being such
58:25powerful champions and fighters, not only for veganism, but as we've found out, veganism is
58:32the underpinning for just being a decent, compassionate human being. Thank you both.