偉人・敗北からの教訓 2024年9月29日 第61回「太田道灌・文武両道の名将の最期」
偉人・敗北からの教訓 2024年9月29日 第61回「太田道灌・文武両道の名将の最期」
#EnglishMovie #cdrama #drama #engsub #chinesedramaengsub #movieshortfull
#EnglishMovie #cdrama #drama #engsub #chinesedramaengsub #movieshortfull
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00Although it was a coincidental victory, the defeat was inevitable.
00:07How did the foreigners, who influenced the history of Japan, lose?
00:13What was the cause and mistake behind it?
00:18This time, I will talk about the defeat of the famous master of Edo Castle in the Muromachi period, Bouta Dokan.
00:29In the chaotic Kanto region, where rebellion and chaos prevailed, the Dokan was loyal and brought about civilization.
00:38Despite this, why did they stop the tragic death of assassination?
00:48The lessons learned from the failures of the defeated, the lessons from the defeat of the foreigners.
00:59What do we learn from the failures of the foreigners in history?
01:07I'm Yuri Nakanishi, voice of Kyo-kun, who plays the role of Shin-Ko.
01:12And I'm Jun Ito, a historian.
01:15Nice to meet you.
01:17Recently, the castle boom is coming, isn't it?
01:20It's amazing, isn't it?
01:21I think there are quite a few people who are enjoying visiting castles.
01:25It seems that it is also important to know who built the castle.
01:31That's right.
01:32The person in charge of building the castle is called a castellan.
01:37The castellan decides where to build the castle and what to do with the castle.
01:44That's the role of the castellan.
01:46The famous castellans are Baba Nobuharu of the Takeda family, Niwa Nagahide of the Oda family,
01:52Takatora Todo, Kiyomasa Kato, and Kanbei Kuroda.
01:59They were very capable castellans.
02:05As a prelude to that, I think that the Ota-do family in the Kanto region
02:09had a renaissance against the castle building.
02:17Now, let's pay attention to the defeat of the Ota-do family,
02:22who built the castle in the Muromachi period,
02:26known as the master of the castle.
02:31The Ota-do family is famous for building the castle,
02:37but I don't know anything else about them.
02:40What kind of people were they?
02:42It is quite famous that Tokugawa Ieyasu built the Edo castle.
02:47In fact, it is quite true that the Ota-do family built the Edo castle in the same place as Tokugawa Ieyasu.
02:53In particular, the Ota-do family was not only good at building castles,
02:59but they also had many talents like Leonardo da Vinci.
03:04Leonardo da Vinci?
03:06It may be a little exaggerated.
03:08First of all, Tokugawa Ieyasu had the ability to excel as a warrior.
03:13Not only that, but he was also famous as a cultured man.
03:17He was such a multi-talented person,
03:19but in the end, he had to meet a man named Bōsatsu.
03:23I would like to find out why that was.
03:29This time, we will explore the teachings of the Ota-do family through the reasons of their defeat.
03:36First of all, let's see what kind of person the Ota-do family was.
03:43The Ota-do family, known for building the whole Edo castle,
03:48was born as a descendant of the Ota-do family,
03:52who served as the guardian deity of the country of Sagami in 1432.
03:57His father, Dōshin, was one of the Uesugi family,
04:00who were proud of their power in the Kanto region.
04:03He was the number two in the Ogi-gayatsu Uesugi family,
04:06who served as the guardian deity of the country.
04:10He was known as the wisest man in the Kanto region.
04:15Dōkan was founded by his father,
04:20who was a member of the Zenshū clan,
04:25who was known as Kamakura Gozan,
04:28and a member of the Ashikaga school,
04:31which was a high school in the present-day Tochigi prefecture.
04:35Just like his father, he served in the Ogi-gayatsu Uesugi family.
04:40When Dōkan was 23 years old,
04:43a major war broke out in the Kanto region,
04:46which was said to be the beginning of the Sengoku period.
04:50It was the Kyōtoku Rebellion.
04:53Dōkan was involved in this war,
04:56which would continue for 28 years in a row.
05:01The castle they built as a defense base was called Edo Castle.
05:07As the battle intensified,
05:10a new war broke out.
05:13The Uesugi family was at the top of the Ogi-gayatsu family,
05:17and the Yamanouchi Uesugi family,
05:20who were actually in control of the Kanto region,
05:23were involved in the Nagao Kageharu Rebellion.
05:26Dōkan exerted its power to suppress this rebellion,
05:30and the Kanto region was completely destroyed.
05:34However, one day,
05:36he was summoned by the leader of the Ogi-gayatsu Uesugi family,
05:41and assassinated.
05:47The Moment of Dōkan's Defeat
05:51Why did Dōkan lose its life?
05:56This time,
05:58the story is about the loss of Ōta-Dōkan,
06:01which lost its life in an unexpected way.
06:05Now, let's look back at the main events of Ōta-Dōkan's life.
06:10What was the situation like in the Kanto region
06:13during the Muromachi period when Dōkan lived?
06:16As you can see in the video,
06:18the Kanto and Sengoku periods began
06:21after the Kyōtoku Rebellion,
06:24which preceded the Onin Rebellion.
06:27The situation in the Kanto region at that time
06:30was that the Kanto-Kubo, also known as Kamakura-Kubo,
06:33was at the top,
06:35and the Kanto-Kanrei supported it.
06:38The upper echelons of the Kanto-Kubo
06:40were the Bakufu of Kyoto.
06:42The head office was in Kyoto,
06:44and Kamakura-Kubo was the president of the subsidiary,
06:47and the Kanto-Kanrei was the executive of the subsidiary.
06:50That was the division.
06:53However, the Kanto-Kanrei
06:55was also the supervisor of the Kanto-Kubo,
06:58so the interests of the two sides were in conflict.
07:01As a result, the battle continued.
07:04I see.
07:06What kind of family was the Ōtake family?
07:09The Ōtake family was not an independent family.
07:12They were the heirs of the Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu.
07:15At that time, the heirs of the family were called
07:18the Kasai family,
07:20and they served as the head of the Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu.
07:23The Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu was a Sagami-shugo family.
07:26At the top of the Sagami-shugo family,
07:29there was the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family of the Kanto-Kanrei.
07:32The Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu
07:35supported the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family.
07:38The Uesugi family fought
07:41against the Kogakubo force.
07:44The Dōkan family followed in the footsteps of their father,
07:47and became the heirs of the Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu.
07:50The Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu
07:53became the heirs of the Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu.
07:56The Kanto region was in chaos
07:59after the Shogōsoku rebelled.
08:02The Kamakura-Kubo and the Kanto-Kanrei
08:05were supposed to rule the region,
08:08but the conflict led to a large-scale rebellion.
08:11In the midst of the war,
08:14the Dōkan family continued to strengthen.
08:18During the Muromachi period,
08:21the Dōkan family, which served the Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu,
08:24which was the largest force in the Kanto region,
08:27did everything it could to suppress the rebellion.
08:30However, the Uesugi family
08:33could not win the war.
08:36What did the Dōkan family do wrong?
08:39What did the Dōkan family do wrong?
08:42The Dōkan family,
08:45also known as the Rumbu-Ryōdō family,
08:48is said to have been
08:51a wise family
08:54since they were young.
08:57One day,
09:00their father, Dōshin,
09:03tried to teach Shōji
09:06what was right and what was wrong.
09:09Shōji was useful
09:12to Shōji,
09:15but he was useless when he was bent.
09:18The Dōkan family replied,
09:21Ryōbu stands because it is bent.
09:24Ryōbu stands because it is bent.
09:27There is also a story like this.
09:30Dōshin was afraid that his wisdom
09:33would be used against him,
09:36so he took a brush
09:40Ogoreru mono hisashikarazu.
09:43Ogori takaburu mono wa
09:46nagatsuzuki shinai no de
09:49kiotsukeru you ni, to.
09:52Then, the Dōkan family
09:55wrote two words
09:58and prayed to their father.
10:01Ogorazaru mono mo mata hisashikarazu.
10:04Ogori o shiranai mono mo mata
10:07nagatsuzuki suru koto wa nai deshou, to.
10:10Ogori o shiranai mono mo mata
10:13nagatsuzuki suru koto wa nai deshou, to.
10:16The descendant of the Dōkan family,
10:19Ōta Sukeaki,
10:22talks about the characteristics
10:25and personality of the Dōkan family.
10:28He is an honest person
10:31who doesn't hold grudges.
10:34He is said to have been
10:37a very good speaker.
10:41This unwavering attitude
10:44of his own
10:46eventually led to a tragedy.
10:53During the Muromachi period,
10:55when the Dōkan family was born,
10:57the Kanto area was divided
10:59into the Ashikaga family of Kamakura Kubo,
11:02and the Yamanouchi Uesugi family
11:05of Kanto Kanrei,
11:07who was supposed to be the father.
11:10The Dōkan family of Ōta
11:13supported the Yamanouchi Uesugi family,
11:16and the Uesugi family of Ogigayatsu
11:19was in a position of being the center of attention.
11:22They had an absolute loyalty
11:25to the Uesugi family.
11:28The Kanto Kanrei,
11:30who was supposed to be the father,
11:33became the center of attention
11:36and strengthened his power.
11:39This led to a big incident
11:42where the Kanto Kanrei was assassinated
11:45by Kamakura Kubo,
11:48who was supposed to be the father.
11:51This was the turning point
11:54when a large-scale plan
11:57to assassinate Kamakura Kubo
12:00was decided.
12:03It was the Kyōtoku Rebellion.
12:06The Dōkan family,
12:09who had been given the power
12:12from their father Dōshin,
12:15was appointed as the center of attention
12:18of the Uesugi family,
12:21and they fought against the Ashikaga family.
12:24Ashikaga, who had been appointed
12:27as Kamakura Kubo's son by his father,
12:30decided to stay in Koga Castle
12:33in Ibaraki Prefecture,
12:36ignoring his father
12:39and appointing him as Koga Kubo
12:42to build his own force.
12:45The Uesugi family
12:48went to Saitama,
12:52where the Dōkan family
12:55built a fortification
12:58to protect the Uesugi family.
13:17The Dōkan family
13:20built a fortification
13:23that was unique to the Dōkan family
13:26by building three fortifications
13:29with mud, stone, and digging.
13:32In particular,
13:35the Edo Castle
13:38had a high defensive power
13:41such as surrounding artificial walls.
13:44The Dōkan family
13:47built a fortification
13:50that was unique to the Dōkan family.
13:53Mr. Kuroda, who studies the Dōkan family
13:56from a new perspective,
13:59talks about the strategy of the Dōkan family.
14:02The Dōkan family was formed
14:05by the Ashikaga family,
14:08which was a military-specialized unit
14:11instead of an employment agency.
14:14The Dōkan family
14:17was able to respond to the war
14:20not only by hiring farmers
14:23but also by forming
14:26a military-specialized unit.
14:36In addition,
14:39the Dōkan family
14:42was forced to give up their land.
14:45The Dōkan family
14:48wanted to fight the Ashikaga family
14:51for 20 years.
14:54However, a huge incident occurred
14:57that shook the Uesugi family.
15:00The head of the Yamanouchi Uesugi family,
15:03Aki Sada,
15:06was fired from his position
15:09because Kageharu instigated a rebellion.
15:15The Dōkan family,
15:18which belonged to Kageharu,
15:21called for help against the rebellion.
15:24What was their decision?
15:40Episode 1 The Dōkan Family
15:44The Dōkan family,
15:47which called for help against the rebellion,
15:50immediately made a decision.
15:53Kageharu Nagao was very fond of the Dōkan family.
15:56However, Kageharu insisted on
15:59starting a rebellion.
16:02Ota Dōkan was a very conservative person.
16:05He said,
16:08Stop it.
16:11If the Uesugi family is destroyed now,
16:14the battle against the Ashikaga family will be dangerous.
16:18The Dōkan family decided to
16:21send a messenger
16:24to the head of the Yamanouchi Uesugi family,
16:27Aki Sada,
16:30to protect Kageharu
16:33from the fire.
16:36However,
16:39Aki Sada ignored the proposal.
16:42Kinoshita, who was familiar with the Uesugi family,
16:45explained the reason.
16:51Aki Sada was still young.
16:54He didn't know if he could analyze the situation
16:57in such a clear way.
17:00In fact,
17:03he didn't know how to analyze the situation.
17:06He wanted to do it
17:09because the Jūshin-tachi recommended it.
17:12In addition,
17:15Aki Sada was indecisive
17:18and tended to overlook things.
17:21He didn't take things seriously.
17:24He said,
17:27It will be fine if I talk to him for a while.
17:31Now is the time to fight for the country.
17:34It will be a big problem
17:37if you think like that.
17:40Kageharu had a bad feeling about the Dōkan family.
17:43He immediately started a rebellion.
17:48Aki Sada was attacked.
17:51He and the head of the Uesugi family,
17:54Sadamasa Uesugi,
17:57were killed.
18:02I've never seen such a thing.
18:05It happened because I neglected him.
18:08As I said,
18:11I should have given him some medicine.
18:14Even though he was a cute child,
18:17he was not forgiven.
18:20He had to fight to protect the Uesugi family.
18:24The Dōkan family was overwhelmed
18:27by the rebellion of Kageharu.
18:31Their strength was amazing.
18:34They won all the battles
18:37in about 30 battles.
18:41In addition,
18:44they persuaded their opponents to surrender.
18:48In this way,
18:51the Dōkan continued to expand their strength.
18:56As a result,
18:59the Uesugi family was defeated.
19:04The surrender of the Uesugi family
19:07contributed to the decline of the Ōgigaya family.
19:12It was the result of the Dōkan family.
19:16In the Ōgigaya family,
19:19the Dōkan family was more determined
19:22than the Ōgigaya family.
19:25That's why they were dissatisfied.
19:29The Dōkan family did their best
19:32to protect the Uesugi family.
19:37However,
19:40they were not dissatisfied at all.
19:46The battle with the outside world
19:49and the battle with Kachū
19:52were very intense.
19:56Yes, they were.
19:59Kageharu Yamanouchi,
20:02who thought he could win,
20:05had a great advantage
20:08and a great advantage.
20:11He was the representative of the family
20:14and the representative of the Kashin family.
20:17Kageharu Yamanouchi
20:20became rebellious.
20:24The Dōkan family
20:27built the Edo Castle.
20:30Was there a big difference
20:33compared to the previous castles?
20:36What was different from the previous castles
20:39was the Nejiro Castle,
20:42the Nakajo Castle,
20:45and the Tojo Castle.
20:48The castle was built in three stages.
20:51Up until then,
20:54the castle was a single building.
20:57Compared to the previous castle,
21:00the castle was an advanced castle.
21:03In the Nejiro Castle,
21:06the Dōkan family read the poem
21:09It is said that they built a very unruly building rather than a building that increased the defensiveness of the castle.
21:24It is said that it was a castle with a very rich atmosphere, which is very typical of the cultured people.
21:31So, it's like a completely different castle.
21:36It is said that the Dōkan destroyed various castles one after another to suppress the Kageharu Rebellion.
21:45I thought that the momentum was amazing, but where do you think the secret of this strength was?
21:52Here is Jun Ito's point of view, looking at the back of history from the point of view of a historian.
22:01I think that the secret of the strength of the Dōkan was the speed and momentum of the decision-making.
22:07I think that the Dōkan was a practice of the Sonshi-no-Koji, which is to say,
22:16the speed of the soldiers is important, and the speed of the stones is sacred.
22:20The speed of the soldiers is important.
22:24In other words, the speed of the soldiers is sacred.
22:27In other words, the speed of the soldiers is sacred.
22:33It's a practice to take care of the momentum, which is to say, to make the stones flutter faster.
22:39There is a trace of learning from the Sonshi-no-Koji.
22:42It is very important to be able to see the point where this is the game.
22:47So, like this, the Dōkan was gradually gaining strength, but what did Uesugi and Akisada think about this?
22:55Akisada's position is also subtle, isn't it?
22:57The Dōkan of the Baishin showed a brilliant plan and destroyed the Kageharu-type,
23:03so I think Akisada thought it was a mistake.
23:07Apart from such emotional arguments,
23:09the Dōkan allowed the people of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family, who had surrendered to the Kageharu-type,
23:19and tried to take it away from Akisada.
23:22By giving the dead people their own ashes,
23:27the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family's power was gradually absorbed by the O-Gyūya-tsu-Uesugi family.
23:34I see, so that's what was going on.
23:38So, I think Akisada felt a sense of crisis about that.
23:43As a result of believing that it was a battle for justice,
23:47the people of the O-Gyūya-tsu-Uesugi family suffered a loss.
23:51They had to take a step back and calmly look at the situation.
24:01The Dōkan, which was known as the Yū of the Kanto region,
24:06suddenly lost its life one day.
24:10What happened behind that?
24:13Let's take a look.
24:16In 1480, the Dōkan destroyed the Hino Castle in Chichibu City in Saitama Prefecture,
24:22which was the last base of the Dagao Kageharu,
24:25and suppressed the Kageharu Rebellion.
24:29The only thing that protected the Uesugi family was my own power.
24:38The Dōkan, which was confident in its own achievements,
24:42even though it was in the midst of a cold war,
24:46was dissatisfied with the fact that Akisada, the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family,
24:51did not quickly hand over the general.
24:59The Dōkan
25:04The Dōkan was sent to Akisada, the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family,
25:09who was the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family.
25:12It was the so-called Ota-Dōkan Castle.
25:17The Dōkan was a place where the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family
25:22sought help from the Dōkan leaders
25:26who were satisfied with Akisada's achievements.
25:31In the Dāgao Kageharu Rebellion,
25:35the Ota-Dōkan fought with all their might
25:39to defeat the enemy.
25:43They wrote about the people
25:47who helped the Dōkan,
25:52and asked the Dōkan leaders
25:56to help them.
25:58It's all thanks to me.
26:01You should appreciate me.
26:03The Dōkan was dissatisfied with Akisada,
26:07so they tried their best to get rid of him.
26:11They were happy because they were told
26:15that they would be executed,
26:20but they didn't want to hurt the Dōkan's honor.
26:24The Dōkan made a strong request to Akisada
26:28to fulfill their promise to the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family
26:32in exchange for a small amount of money.
26:36It was a very natural request.
26:40However, Akisada didn't accept the request.
26:44Who do you think you are,
26:48the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family?
26:52In addition, accepting the request of the Dōkan
26:56meant that the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family would be at a disadvantage.
27:00The original request was from the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family.
27:04If they accepted the request,
27:08the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family would be damaged.
27:13The chiefs who sided with Kageharu
27:17were originally members of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family.
27:21By defeating them,
27:25they became members of the Dōkan,
27:29and the small amount of money
27:33was transferred to the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family.
27:37As a result,
27:42the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family was destroyed.
27:50In 1482,
27:54the Muromachi-Bakufu took over
27:58and the Ashikaga family and the Uesugi family were wiped out.
28:02As a result, the Kyōtoku Rebellion, which lasted for 28 years,
28:06came to an end.
28:10The chief of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family, Akisada Ate,
28:14said frankly what he noticed in the Dōkan.
28:18I understand that
28:22you are around,
28:26but the nature of Kanto
28:30cannot be realized immediately.
28:34First of all, there is no order in the family.
28:39He couldn't feel it at the right time.
28:43In order to rule the country in the past,
28:47he had to get people.
28:51Akisada Ate said that
28:55it was necessary to have this kind of mindset
28:59in order to rule the country.
29:03He said that he couldn't do it at all.
29:08The Dōkan relied on their own beliefs
29:12and gave Akisada a strong claim.
29:16However, it was only a way
29:20to make Sadamasa, the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family,
29:24angry.
29:27What do you mean by bringing people directly to the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family?
29:31You made me a puppet!
29:36And the tragedy suddenly came.
29:49In 1486,
29:52the Dōkan was invited to Sadamasa's mansion.
29:58It was summer.
30:00The Dōkan, which was bathed in sweat,
30:04was surrounded by shadows.
30:22It was a moment of great tragedy
30:26and sudden defeat for the Dōkan.
30:31The Dōkan was destroyed.
30:37It is said that the Dōkan lost its life.
30:43Why did the Dōkan lose its life?
30:51Akisada Ate was the head of the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family,
30:55so he was probably not the one
31:00who killed the Dōkan.
31:04He was the one who decided
31:08that the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family
31:12would not be able to survive
31:16if the Dōkan was destroyed.
31:24The Dōkan was destroyed
31:28by the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family,
31:32so the Yamanouchi-Uesugi family
31:36had to fight for power.
31:40The truth of the assassination of the Dōkan
31:44has not yet been revealed.
31:48However, it seems that there were people
31:52who hated the Dōkan.
31:57The Dōkan, which has won many battles,
32:01may have been the closest enemy to the Dōkan.
32:09From the letter that the Dōkan sent to Akisada,
32:13I can feel the firmness of the Dōkan
32:17and the strength of the Dōkan.
32:21It's really amazing.
32:26I think Akisada was worried
32:30about Nagao Kagehara's decision
32:34to kill the Dōkan.
32:38I think Akisada was worried
32:42about Nagao Kagehara's decision
32:46to kill the Dōkan.
32:50I think Akisada was worried
32:54about Nagao Kagehara's decision
32:58to kill the Dōkan.
33:02I think Akisada was worried
33:06about Nagao Kagehara's decision
33:10to kill the Dōkan.
33:14I think Akisada was worried
33:18about Nagao Kagehara's decision
33:23to kill the Dōkan.
33:27I think Akisada was worried
33:31about Nagao Kagehara's decision
33:35to kill the Dōkan.
33:39I think Akisada was worried
33:43about Nagao Kagehara's decision
33:47to kill the Dōkan.
33:52I think Akisada was worried
33:56about Nagao Kagehara's decision
34:00to kill the Dōkan.
34:04I think Akisada was worried
34:08about Nagao Kagehara's decision
34:12to kill the Dōkan.
34:16I think Akisada was worried
34:21about Nagao Kagehara's decision
34:25to kill the Dōkan.
34:29I think Akisada was worried
34:33about Nagao Kagehara's decision
34:37to kill the Dōkan.
34:41I think Akisada was worried
34:45about Nagao Kagehara's decision
34:49to kill the Dōkan.
34:53I think Akisada was worried
34:57about Nagao Kagehara's decision
35:01to kill the Dōkan.
35:05I think Akisada was worried
35:09about Nagao Kagehara's decision
35:13to kill the Dōkan.
35:18During the war,
35:22the Dōkan held a meeting
35:26in their home town, Edo Castle.
35:30The Dōkan held a meeting
35:34in their home town, Edo Castle.
35:38The Dōkan held a meeting
35:42in their home town, Edo Castle.
35:46The woman picked up a branch
35:50and handed it over to the man.
35:54The Dōkan was drenched
35:58in sweat as they were going home.
36:04They were upset
36:06that they did not get a chance
36:08to host the�
36:09to host the
36:11Welcoming Ceremony.
36:13花は咲いても実がならない山吹きと、実の一つないことの悲しさを懸けているのだと。
36:32それを聞いた道館は、己の不明を恥じ、より一層稼働に励んだと伝えられています。
36:41しかし、この逸話は道館の主語300年近く経ってまとめられた江戸時代中期の逸話集、常山奇談に初めて登場するもので、実際にあった出来事なのか定かではありません。
36:58ところが、蓮京熱心な道館の性格を物語る話として、江戸庶民の間に広まります。
37:09江戸時代に江戸庶民が太田道館大好きで、道館さん道館さんといって、太田道館雄広くという本がものすごく読まれてベストセラーだった。あれ大好きなんですね。
37:23一族を守るために戦い続けた中心でありながら、非業の死を遂げた道館に同情を寄せる人々が、悲劇の英雄として語り継いでいったのです。
37:38戦乱が激しさを増し戦国へと繋がる室町時代、関東一円に武勇を轟かせた太田道館。江戸の庶民をも取り子にした魅力とは。
37:53文武領土の鏡だと思いますよ。戦は強いし、和歌は上手いし、文章を書かせたらすごい文章を書くしね。やっぱり当時としては大変な秀才だったんでしょうな。
38:06やっぱり最初の文武領土の名称じゃないですかね。文学、学問に造形が深いって言って、京都の僧侶とかにも評判なので。
38:19道館の時代はもう日常的に戦争になってた中で、良好を深めてるっていうところが最初の文武領土。
38:29だからあれですよね、文化賞は道館賞とか作った方がいいかもしれないね。
38:36江戸繁栄の礎を作り、文武領土に引い出た道館は、時を越え今も多くの人々に慕われています。
38:47確かにあれだけ殺伐とした戦国時代の関東の武将でありながら、文才もあって文化人としても優れていたという、それだけ能力の高い人だっただけに惜しいなという気持ちがありますね。
39:09ありますよね。先々いろんな武将が文武領土と呼ばれますよね。結構文に明るい人も多く出てますよね。その手本となったのが道館なんじゃないかなと思うんですよね。
39:21結局この道館の本拠の江戸城というのは関東の一大文化サノンのように化していくということで、京都の著名な文化人たちも江戸城を目指して旅してきたっていうんですから、すごいですよね。
39:32そういった意味でパイオニアであり、そういう非常にクリエイティビティを持った人だったんですよね。
39:38道館どうしてこんなに江戸時代に人気になったと思われますか。
39:42江戸って言えば徳川家康ってイメージ強いかもしれませんけど、ある意味家康っていうのはよそ者なんですよね。
39:48やはり江戸で生まれた人たちも多くなってくるとですね、オラガ町のヒーローっていうのを欲してるわけですよ。それに道館はぴったり当てはまったということですよね。
39:57それでやはり要するに同様の悲劇的な最後がですね、黄岩美貴の日本人の心の噤声に触れたということが言えるんじゃないでしょうかね。
40:06なるほど、そういう条件が揃って江戸時代にわっと人気が出てきたわけですね。
40:11これ大田道館が殺された後っていうのは大竹自体はどうなったんですかね。
40:16大竹はですね、その後一旦息子の助安が山の内に上杉家に着いたり、また大田家に上杉家に戻ったりしながら長居の穴を乗り切っていくんですけど、
40:25うまく戦国時代を泳ぎ渡って江戸時代もですね、大田氏っていうのは幕府の老中とか非常に要職に就いてですね、そして明治維新を迎えたということで。
40:38それほど大きな大名にはならなかったとはいえ生き抜いたということで言えば道館もですね、納得がいくんではないでしょうかね。
40:45この後は伊藤潤が描くアナザーストーリー。
40:50史実だけでは語れないもう一つの物語。伊藤さんが描くアナザーストーリー。
41:01もし道館が暗殺されなかったら、その後歴史はどう動いたのか。
41:09おそらく道館ほどの企業の持ち主であればですね、両上杉氏の統合であるとかですね、古学坊の勢力も統合してですね、関東に一大勢力を築いたと思うんですよ。
41:21そうなってくると南部から押し寄せてくる北条宗運との決戦というのがですね、どっかの地で行われたということは間違いないと思うんですよね。
41:29それでもしも北条宗を滅ぼすなり撃退することができたらですね、道館というのは関東にかっこたる地位を築いて、しかもですね、それだけ強力な体制を築いたらですね、室町幕府の混乱、そちらをですね、納めにですね、京都まで上落して京都の将軍の官令にですね、ついたかもしれないですね。
41:51そうなってくると室町幕府の正義というのも回復することが可能でですね、おそらく室町幕府ももっと長く続いたかもしれない。こういうことが考えられると思うんですね。
42:04さあ、改めて道館の敗北から私たちが学ぶべき人生の教訓をお願いします。
42:10本来ならね、ユダヤマン氏が身を滅ぼすと言いたいところなんですけど、それじゃちょっと面白くないんで、あえて別のものにしたいと思うんですけど、それはですね、賢者は理屈で動き、愚者は感情で動くということを忘れたらいけないということを挙げたいと思うんですよね。
42:27政治、外交、軍事のあらゆる面で関東に並ぶものとてない状態になった道館なんですけど、自分がいなければ上杉寺院は立ち行かなくなると。関東の精神を保てないということを信じていたわけなんですよね。しかしそれはですね、賢者にだけ通じる理屈なわけなんですよ。
42:44秋田貞政としてはですね、道館が必要なのはわかるけど、ちょっとあまりにも俺たち舐めてるよねっていうことで、ちょっと殺しちゃおうよみたいな話になったと思うんですよね。
42:55つまりそういったですね、賢者と愚者の論理というの、そこに非常に重要なものが隠されているんですけど、それを見誤ったが故に道館墓穴を掘ったと思うんですよね。
43:05われわれの日常生活でも日々、例えば社会名のニュースを見て、淫算な殺人事件があるじゃないですか。こういったものに接するとですね、どうしてこんな人を殺したの?
43:17今度30年喰らい込むのよとか思うじゃないですか。それが常識人の考え方なんですけど、愚者というのはですね、感情だけに支配されていることが多いんですよ。
43:27ですから感情に支配された人間何をしでかすかわからない。それを非常にですね、注視していかなければいけないということなんですよね。
43:37自分の判断がまっとうだとしても、相手が同じように考えるとは限りません。
43:44感情だけで動く人間も大勢いるので、周囲への配慮は欠かさぬように。
43:51これぞ太田道館の敗北から学ぶ教訓です。
43:57今回の教訓で賢者だった道館がなぜ失敗してしまったのかというところを非常に考えさせられたんですけれども、優秀だったり才能がある人にありがちなんですかね。
44:11そうじゃない人たちの気持ちになれないっていうのは。
44:14これはですね、やはり私の経験で言っても、やはり賢い人というのは本当に理屈で考えるんですよ。
44:20ところがやっぱりですね、自分も若い頃はそうだったんですけど、感情で動いてしまうんですね。
44:24そのギャップってすごくあって、お互いそれが非常にコミュニケーションを取る上で疎後を生き出してしまうというのは、我々の社会でもあると思うんですよね。
44:33ですから感情で動くというのをいかに抑制できるか。
44:37それによってやはり人間関係も非常にうまくいきますし、自分の周囲の環境も良くなると。
44:42やはりこういったことを心がけていかなければいけないと思います。
44:46衛藤さん、今日もありがとうございました。
44:48ありがとうございました。
44:49異人、敗北からの恐怖。それではまた次回お会いしましょう。