Transfer deadline day reaction as Sunderland thrash Portsmouth at Fratton Park
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sutherland Echo.
00:24My name is Jason Jones, I'm joined by James Copley and Bill Smith.
00:28Pleasure to see you on a Monday morning, lads.
00:31The perfect start continues for Sutherland.
00:33It's now four wins from four.
00:34They are top of the championship, a 3-1 win over Portsmouth at the weekend.
00:40Phil, I know we've got plenty of transfer business to be unpacking
00:44after that pretty manic deadline day, but before we get into that,
00:47let's just talk about the game at the weekend.
00:48I mean, another good showing from Regis Lebrissac.
00:53Yeah, it's like so controlled,
00:57so organised, so disciplined.
01:00It's just like, sometimes it's quite hard to believe, isn't it?
01:04You know, in terms of how quickly they've just become this
01:08well-rounded, organised, dangerous side.
01:11It's like, and I think you've got to give a lot of credit to Lebrissac.
01:14I mean, to be fair, like one of the things we talked about towards the end of
01:16last season was that defensively, Sutherland were quite good, weren't they?
01:20Their defensive record was never really so terrible.
01:22Even when they were playing badly, they just lost all attack and threat.
01:25Lebrissac has managed to sort of keep that good defensive stuff
01:30but maintain that threat.
01:32And I think that, you know, Portsmouth started strongly, as you would expect,
01:37but, you know, tried to play quite long, but Sunderland's two centre-halves
01:40dealt with it really well.
01:41And it was just such a controlled, professional performance.
01:44And you don't want to get carried away,
01:47but four games, they've deserved to in every single one of them.
01:50They've barely given up a chance in any of the four games.
01:53Another game where Paterson basically didn't have anything to do.
01:56It's just, it's undramatic in the most, in the most enjoyable way possible.
02:02They just feel in total control of the games.
02:04And I don't think you can really praise them enough.
02:06We know that there's going to be challenges ahead,
02:08how they're going to react to adversity.
02:09But they just look like a very well-drilled, organised, hungry side.
02:14And I just don't, you can't really praise them enough.
02:19And a side as well, James, who were missing a couple of players,
02:22it has to be said. I mean, Dan Neal suspended.
02:24But given that midfield performance from obviously Joe playing a slightly deeper role
02:28than we might have expected, Alan Brown dropping in for Neal
02:31and another spectacular showing from Chris Rigg.
02:33I mean, Regis Lebris has got options, hasn't he?
02:37Yes, a really nice problem to have, to be honest,
02:40because I think we came on this podcast a lot
02:43and it was a huge frustration within the fanbase, wasn't it?
02:46That Sunderland's midfield last season were overplayed.
02:49They weren't able to have rest and rotation.
02:51There wasn't enough variety in terms of tactically
02:54and the balance of the midfield seemed off,
02:56even though there's some extremely talented players in there.
02:59But this season, obviously, Rigg's developed.
03:00Neal's come on.
03:02Job's back to his best after a nice break.
03:05And they've added Alan Brown.
03:06And you've still got the deadline day, Simon Sammed, to come in as well.
03:10So, all of a sudden, that midfield is looking really, really, really tasty.
03:15It's a long season, a long 46-game season.
03:18So, there's going to be injuries and suspensions.
03:20We've seen injuries already in Sunderland's backline.
03:22We've seen suspensions with Dan Neal as well, getting us two yellows.
03:26So, I think that depth in midfield is hugely pleasing.
03:30And just the ability to have a variety in there, I think, is really good.
03:35And, you know, it's a big question, isn't it?
03:38Ahead of Plymouth, does Neal come straight back in?
03:41Chris Rigg, Job and Alan Brown are on international duty.
03:44So, hopefully, they'll be fine.
03:46But, you know, from Dan Neal's point of view,
03:48there's no sort of guarantee he's going to walk straight back into that midfield,
03:51such as the intense competition in Simed.
03:54I'm sure we'll come on to him later.
03:55But he's played Champions League football.
03:57I don't think he's leaving a top-flight European club to come to Sunderland
04:02in the Championship and sit on the bench.
04:04So, I'm hugely excited and encouraged by Sunderland's business.
04:08And I think Phil nearly had a heart attack on deadline day,
04:12because for a long, long, long time,
04:14Phil has been talking about that number six Corey Evans replacement,
04:17a little bit of balance to Sunderland's midfield.
04:19We never thought it was going to happen.
04:20And then, suddenly, out of the blue, it came.
04:22And Phil was very excited.
04:26Yeah, I just...
04:27Well, it's because it's something we've asked about a lot, isn't it?
04:29Over the past few seasons, Corey Evans got injured.
04:32And the answer's always kind of been this, like,
04:34oh, well, we don't really play with a six.
04:36Like, we want versatile midfielders.
04:38And, like, fair play, like, Dan Neal has done really well in that role.
04:42And on Saturday, I thought Job was outstanding.
04:44Like, Job played that defensive midfield role.
04:47And had a brilliant game.
04:48So, I can understand the logic in that,
04:50if you can get players who are versatile and can play different roles,
04:53that's the ideal scenario.
04:55So, I get that argument of it.
04:56I just think there's certain occasions where games over the last year,
04:59where we've seen it's been crying out for that bit of steel
05:01and that bit of discipline and that, you know,
05:03that natural hold of midfielders.
05:05So, I think, like, I think we've seen a few things this summer where...
05:09We'll get onto the transfer stuff a bit more in a bit,
05:11and the striker and all that.
05:12But we've seen a few things this summer where stuff we were crying out for,
05:15someone who'd just gone and done.
05:17Like, I think Alan Brown, we were crying out for that kind of signing
05:20and then someone just went and got it done.
05:22Chris Metham, I think, off the back of Alisa's injury,
05:24you sort of see that news break and you just go,
05:26yeah, that's really good, sensible, pragmatic business.
05:29And I think, you know, Sam Edds, the other one, where, you know,
05:32we know, as James has alluded to there, he's not going to play,
05:35you know, all 40 games between now and the end of the season.
05:38There might be some games where Lebris thinks he can be a bit bolder
05:41and he doesn't necessarily need that kind of play.
05:43But I think what you've got there is,
05:44you've got five really high-class central midfield players
05:50competing for three games.
05:51And let's be honest, obviously,
05:52Rigg's not going to get dropped now because he's playing so well,
05:55but he's not going to play 46 games.
05:57You know, we talked March, April, February last year about Joe being overplayed
06:01in his first full season of professional football.
06:04You know, we've got to be consistent and say it's the same for Rigg.
06:06You know, Sunderland will potentially burn him out if he plays every single game.
06:10Now, the really pleasing thing is you've got the option
06:12of when Lebris feels maybe for a midweek game,
06:15you know, Rigg needs a breather.
06:17You're not worried about the player who's coming in.
06:19I think that position has gone from one we were all talking about in the summer,
06:23it's one we were a little bit concerned about,
06:25to a position of real strength.
06:26I think you've genuinely got five players who could potentially get into
06:30pretty much any team in this division.
06:32It's really, really exciting.
06:34And like I say, I like the pragmatism at Sam Ed,
06:36it's just a straight season loan.
06:38But you've taken an opportunity to get an experienced player in
06:41who's going to have an impact.
06:43Yeah, exciting times.
06:44I'm excited to, you know, it's an exciting team to watch.
06:46It's not what we thought, you know, that every game of the season
06:50they've had less possession than the opposition,
06:51which I think is really interesting.
06:53And yet they are exciting to watch, it is aggressive.
06:56It's just that they're being pragmatic about it.
06:58The pressing is amazing when they do it,
07:00but they don't do it for 90 minutes.
07:01I just think, yeah, they've managed to get this real structure
07:04and defensive resilience without being boring.
07:08And I think that's really impressive and exciting.
07:11I think Regis Libéry just quickly deserves huge credit as well,
07:14just simply because of the sort of clarity of message
07:17and delivery with Sunderland's squad.
07:20You know, he sort of set out his stall against Blackpool in pre-season,
07:23didn't he? This is my first team.
07:25This is me, sort of my backup reserve team.
07:28And it's worked wonders since then.
07:30Just looking at somebody like Patrick Roberts after the game against Portsmouth,
07:34you know, he and Libéry were sort of enjoying a little smile together
07:36and a little chat.
07:37And he looks revitalising from speaking to a couple of people.
07:41It's because of that clarity.
07:42It's because Libéry maps out exactly what he wants from his players.
07:46And I think that's hugely, hugely positive.
07:49If he'd have said to us,
07:51Sunderland will go into the international break,
07:53the only unbeaten team in the Championship,
07:57the only team in the Championship with a 100% record,
07:59having scored 10, conceded one,
08:01beaten Burnley, Cardiff, Portsmouth and Sheffield Wednesday.
08:06You know, I think after the Bradford game,
08:09we would have said, yeah, but I don't think that'll happen.
08:11But it has.
08:12And I think, you know, players and head coach deserve huge amounts of credit for it.
08:18And a word on Elisa Mayenda as well.
08:20Obviously, led the line again on Saturday to great effect.
08:24Arguably, his best show so far in a Sunderland shirt.
08:28I mean, obviously, he scored the two against Sheffield Wednesday,
08:29but he's very unfortunate not to get on the score sheet against Portsmouth at the weekend.
08:34I mean, it's a position that we are going to talk about as the podcast goes on.
08:38So obviously, the whole transfer debacle regarding the signing of a striker.
08:42But with every passing week,
08:44does it kind of feel as if Sunderland are maybe a little bit more well equipped in that position
08:49than we might have thought at the beginning of the season?
08:52Well, yeah, I mean, I would put Mayenda in the same category as Rigg now,
08:55in that I think that you have to be realistic and say he's not going to do this for 46 games
09:00because of his previous experience and his age.
09:04And yet, at the same time, we now, he deserves to be considered a championship starter.
09:09I think his calibre of performances across the season have been of that level.
09:13You know, there's always context.
09:15We spoke a bit about after the Burnley win,
09:16how we felt that was the perfect time to play them because of everything that was going on.
09:20I do think Portsmouth's defence was a big factor in the game.
09:25I think none of their probably first-choice centre-halves were available.
09:28So they had one centre-half who maybe normally wouldn't be in the team
09:31and a right-back at centre-half.
09:33They definitely struggled.
09:36You know, there were some long, hopeful balls through the middle
09:39that Sutherland caused problems with that they wouldn't ordinarily.
09:41So there is a context to Mayenda's performance.
09:43But at the same time, I don't think you can take anything away from how good he was.
09:47And I think there's a few things that are exciting to me.
09:51I think physically, he's obviously, I don't think he's going to be like a back-to-goal,
09:56make the ball stick, win headers.
09:58He just doesn't look like that kind of striker to me.
10:00But his pressing is really, really good.
10:03I think he's a nightmare for the opposition defenders.
10:04That's ultimately why he's in the team,
10:06because he's the player who picked up the quickest, what the briefs wants.
10:10I think that his movement is canny, he makes good runs, he's difficult.
10:14And he's popping up in the right areas in the box.
10:16You know, if you look at the first two goals,
10:18you know, obviously it's a bit of a comedy on goal, isn't it?
10:21Where the Portsmouth defender smashes it into his poor teammate's stomach and it goes in.
10:25That all comes because Mayenda is in the box to take that shot
10:28and the keeper has to palm out into a dangerous area.
10:31That's the kind of thing we were saying all last season,
10:33that Sunderland strikers weren't able to do.
10:35The second goal, again, a little bit comedic as Brown has to flick his leg out
10:39just to make sure that it's definitely going over the line.
10:42But it all starts because Mayenda is in the right place in the box to meet Robert's cutback.
10:47And I think that's, you know, we now as Sunderland fans have a huge appreciation
10:51for how difficult a skill it is to be in the right place in the right time in the box,
10:54because we've seen how many other players have struggled to do it.
10:58I can't really praise Mayenda enough.
11:00I think he has been, for me, in terms of the context of where
11:04Sunderland were coming from into the season and the fact that he barely played on loan at Hibs,
11:08for me, he's definitely been the player of the season so far because he looks...
11:12He's not just like, oh, it's not ideal, but he's doing the job.
11:15He's playing really well. He is genuinely playing really well.
11:18And obviously his assist for the third goal as well, a lovely way to pass.
11:22I can't really praise Mayenda enough. I love watching him play.
11:24I think there's really something there.
11:26The caveat being, same thing as Rigg,
11:28at some point, he's not going to play in the team.
11:30And that's not a critical thing.
11:32It's just that, again, he is now playing every week for the first time.
11:36And at some point you're going to have to rotate.
11:37And that's obviously why the other questions about deadline day and stuff come in.
11:41But, listen, I think you have to be fair and say,
11:45it doesn't matter who Sunderland had signed on deadline day,
11:47unless it was Mbappe, Mayenda starts against Plymouth,
11:50because that's how well he's playing.
11:51And he absolutely deserves that.
11:53And I think it's important that you have that culture whereby
11:56if a young player comes in and plays well, then they have to stay in the team.
11:59I think that's really important.
12:00So, massive part of the win.
12:02And I agree with you.
12:03I thought that was definitely his best performance in the Sunderland shirt.
12:06You know, crucial in all three goals, even if he didn't get on the score sheet.
12:10And like I say, just general menace throughout the game, really.
12:17And we saw Wilson Isidore obviously make his debut as well, James.
12:21Came on the left wing rather than through the middle.
12:24I mean, do you think that's much of a hint as to where the brief sees him?
12:27Or do you think that was largely a reflection of how well Mayenda was playing?
12:31I think probably a reflection of how well Mayenda was playing.
12:35I think you referenced it in his opening interview, didn't you?
12:37That he could play up front, play off the left.
12:40And he even said he could play off the right.
12:42So, I think it's good definitely to have a player that is versatile in those two positions.
12:47Obviously, with the departure of Jack Clarke as well.
12:49But, I mean, Romain Munn will talk about another player who's stepped up to the plate.
12:52He's been fantastic as well.
12:54And that third goal, really, just to talk about that.
12:56I mean, the tackle from Chris Rigg to win it in the middle.
13:0017 years old, gives it to Mayenda, who carries the ball.
13:03I mean, Chris Rigg doing that on the yellow as well was ludicrous.
13:06Brilliantly timed.
13:07You know, Mayenda carrying the ball all the way up the pitch into Portsmouth half.
13:12The wherewithal to sort of get it to Mundell.
13:15You know, Mayenda's still only 19 and I think Mundell's still 21.
13:18So, that goal, it's so encouraging for Sunderland.
13:23And, you know, we've talked a lot about Clarke's exit and we'll come on to Clarke's exit as well.
13:29And the transfer window as a whole.
13:31But, if we decide Eliza Mayenda at sort of, you know, three days ago.
13:37We've just lost Jason now.
13:40Hang on a second.
13:45Yeah, we've lost Jason now, but I'll continue my point.
13:47If we'd assigned Phil Eliza Mayenda sort of three days before the deadline.
13:52And he'd come in and done what he'd done.
13:54Or if we'd even signed him at the start of the summer.
13:56And he'd come in and shown what he has.
13:58Everybody would be absolutely over the moon.
14:00It's that sort of perception thing that he's not really seen as a new sign.
14:03And rightly so, because he came in the summer before.
14:05But the same with Mundell in a sense as well.
14:08I know he scored a goal last season and did show some promise.
14:10But if we'd assigned him as Jack Clarke's replacement straight afterwards.
14:15I think everybody would sort of be thinking of it slightly different, wouldn't they?
14:20It's weird how that perception works.
14:22Yeah, well, I mean, in both cases, you know.
14:24If Mundell had come in straight after Clarke had left.
14:26I think people would have said, you know, he's not a proven senior player.
14:32And that would have been fair.
14:34I think with Mundell, you've got to give someone credit.
14:37And that they spotted an opportunity in January.
14:38They didn't need Romain Mundell at that point.
14:41But when you get the opportunity to sign, you know, a really talented left winger.
14:45Who you've got a lot of belief in.
14:47Who you've been tracking for a while.
14:48Knowing that at some point you might lose your left winger.
14:50I think that was just good sort of pragmatic business.
14:53I think, I do think, I totally understand what you're saying about the perception.
14:57But I think that has changed now.
14:59You know, I don't think anyone's talking about Meandering Mundell as anything other than
15:03good championship players who are going to compete now.
15:05I think what I really like about Mundell is like Saturday.
15:09I don't mean this in any way a critical way.
15:11He wasn't actually as prominent as he was against Burnley.
15:14But what I really like about him, which you don't always get with wingers.
15:17And especially not young wingers.
15:19There's a really strong minimum level of performance with Mundell.
15:23Like we talk a lot about consistency and stuff.
15:25And yeah, he's not going to sort of score and assist in every single game that he plays in.
15:31What I like about Mundell is he really digs in.
15:33He works hard.
15:34He tracks back.
15:35He makes tackles when he needs to.
15:37He presses really well.
15:38So you have that confidence that even when he's maybe not getting loads of shots away
15:42or not firing in loads of crosses or getting loads of opportunities to sort of beat his
15:46marker, he is contributing.
15:48You're not carrying him in any way, shape or form.
15:50And I think for a winger of his age, that is such a valuable quality.
15:55And I think it's really, really exciting to see what he's done.
16:00But I totally agree with you in terms of the perception of both of those players.
16:03But I think that has changed over the last two weeks now.
16:06I don't think we're talking about Meander and Mundell in any other way with both of
16:10them.
16:10And I know I keep coming back to this point, which is a bit boring, but they are both in
16:14the same category as Rigg.
16:15This is really that first full season of senior football.
16:18So while it's really exciting, we also have to be mindful as well as that because we've
16:23had first-hand experience, we've seen it with so many other players, Dan Neal, Joe, Callum
16:27Doyle.
16:28We know that they're not going to do it for 46 games.
16:31So you do have to take a bit more of a holistic view in terms of, OK, it's not just about
16:36the team in Plymouth in a fortnight, which is going to look really strong and informed.
16:40It's about, have you got the options when it gets to December, January, and you need
16:44other people to step in?
16:47Most positions, I think Sunderland are there, which I think is exciting.
16:50But there are a few where you would have a few concerns, I think.
16:55Yeah, just a comment from YouTube.
16:57Somebody says, is James streaming out of an abandoned house?
17:00No, this is actually my house.
17:01But as you can see, it is very much a work in progress.
17:03And we're just getting the living room done at the moment.
17:06Jason Jones has returned.
17:08So I will hand back over, Jason.
17:11Yeah, the wonders of technology lights.
17:13Wi-Fi just completely disappeared on me there.
17:15Apologies for that.
17:17Should we talk transfer business then?
17:19Should we talk about deadline day and everything that happened?
17:21Because it ended up being a very busy, very late one from Sunderland as well.
17:25It felt like we waited all day and then a flurry of sign-ins were announced all at once.
17:29I mean, coming to you first, Phil, just straight up question, do you think Sunderland have
17:35done enough in this transfer?
17:36And are you happy with the business that they've been able to conduct?
17:41Yeah, yeah, I think so.
17:45Listen, I think most of the business they've done is really good.
17:48I think that Alan Brown is one of the best sign-ins Sunderland have made in a long time,
17:55on a free.
17:55I just cannot stress how much I love that business.
17:58I just think that is such good, sensible, pragmatic business.
18:01And yes, it's a break from Sunderland's model and that there's not a huge resale value,
18:07et cetera, et cetera.
18:08But A, he improves your team now and he helps the development of Job, Dan Neil, Chris Rigg,
18:15who are all going to make, potentially, the club fortunes in the future.
18:20So I just think I like the pragmatism on that.
18:23Metham, I think, is a great solution to a not ideal scenario in terms of the Elysee
18:28and Uri.
18:29Really like that business.
18:31So broadly speaking, I am happy with the business.
18:33I think you've got to say when you discuss the summer window as well, keeping the vast
18:37majority of the squad in place was good business.
18:39I think it's important we don't lose that.
18:42I think there's two things I would say is that I expected them to do a bit more off
18:47the back of losing Clark.
18:49I expected them to make a bit more of a splash.
18:51And I was a little bit disappointed that, for me, that was the perfect opportunity.
18:56And I'm going to be a bit hypocritical because I've praised Miander, but I thought that
18:59was an opportunity to then go and really get a deal done up front where you sort of go,
19:04OK, we've lost Clark, but there's Mundell there, there's other wingers there, and you've
19:09used it to address the biggest issue in the squad.
19:11So I thought it was disappointing that that never really happened.
19:14I know that they did try very hard to do that.
19:16I mean, Bamber at Lorient, who LaBreeze obviously knows really well, is someone that they did
19:20chuck a fair bit of money at, but just couldn't get it done.
19:23So I was a little bit underwhelmed by what happened after Clark went.
19:27Doesn't mean it was a terrible window, but that was a little bit of a disappointment
19:30to me.
19:31The other thing is, I do think full-backs are a concern for me, just in that human sake
19:36and a top-end Premier League player, top-end Championship players who I think will go up
19:40to the Premier League.
19:42So you don't worry about them, but if there's an injury, there's obviously an issue.
19:46The caveat to that is, I've asked LaBreeze about this twice towards the end of the window,
19:49and both times he said he was completely comfortable with it.
19:52I get the impression that what he would do in that scenario is switch to a back three.
19:57And play wingers as wing-backs, basically really attacking wing-backs.
20:00A bit like Alex Neil did at the start of the Championship season, when I think it was Clark
20:03and Gooch maybe were playing as wing-backs.
20:07So I am concerned about that, but LaBreeze isn't.
20:11So maybe I should not be as concerned, but I do think they've taken a little bit of a
20:15risk there.
20:15So I don't know.
20:16Does that answer your question, Jason?
20:18Hopefully it sort of does in a very roundabout way.
20:22I mean, yes and no.
20:23I think that's how we're all sort of feeling, isn't it?
20:25There are positives, and then there are concerning parts as well.
20:29I mean, obviously the striker question was the big one this summer, James.
20:34As Phil mentioned there, Sunderland tried.
20:36There were plenty of names linked.
20:37You know, in the end, the one that managed to get through the door was Ahmed Abdullahi,
20:4120-year-old from Ghent in Belgium.
20:45I mean, a player who hasn't really played much senior football, who looks like he has
20:53a decent amount of technical ability about him, looks big and powerful.
20:58But ultimately, I mean, maybe not the striker that many summer fans would have been hoping for.
21:04No, it does present a little bit of a risk as well.
21:07There were, you know, long-term links to Alexandre Mendy and the like.
21:11So we were expecting perhaps a player with a little bit more experience.
21:15That doesn't mean that you don't go and sign somebody of the profile of Abdullahi
21:20when they come along, if you really like them, if you think they're going to contribute,
21:23if you think there could be one for the future.
21:25I've absolutely no problem with Sunderland going and signing a player like that at all.
21:30But that does come sort of within the context of Sunderland's long-term striker problems,
21:36which you could say have been there before really Ross Stewart left,
21:41because I remember we were looking at it in that first championship season
21:45when Sims and Stewart were there thinking that, you know, we could do with a couple behind.
21:50Obviously, Sims went and then Ross Stewart got injured.
21:54Obviously, Joe Gelhardt coming.
21:55It's been a problem position at Sunderland for a long time now.
22:00I do think there are more options there.
22:04With Mayender coming through, it has really helped ease that worry a little bit.
22:08But yeah, I completely agree with Phil.
22:10I would have liked to have seen that experienced striker.
22:13Not saying that Sunderland didn't try, because they did quite clearly try all window
22:17and obviously offering big money to the Lorient striker as well, reportedly.
22:22So, it's one of those ones where it's still ongoing, still a little bit frustrating.
22:27But when you've won four games on the trot, it does become a little bit less of an issue.
22:32It becomes a little bit less of an issue because Eliza Mayender has got four goal contributions.
22:39I think I agree with Phil on what he's saying about it would have been good
22:42to have seen that splash after Jack Clark.
22:46It's always going to be very hard to replace a player of Jack Clark's quality directly.
22:52But I think Sunderland have actually made a reasonable start towards doing that in terms
22:55of there's threats seemingly all over the pitch now, whereas Sunderland last season
23:00looked a little bit one-dimensional.
23:01But time will tell, won't it?
23:03I think it's been a positive window for Sunderland.
23:06I think deadline day was strange in a way because we all looked at it and thought this
23:11could be really, really busy.
23:12And it was really, really busy.
23:14We thought it could be quite exciting with a few twists.
23:16But because of the way it mapped out, and this was nobody's fault and it's not me having
23:21a dig at Sunderland, but the business was done late and then a lot of the announcements
23:25sort of came later on, after 12, heading on a one, two in the morning.
23:29So, that excitement starts to die.
23:32People get a little bit concerned that things aren't happening behind the scenes.
23:35If those deals have perhaps been spread out a little bit, I think the hype starts to build
23:39and whatnot.
23:40But I think it was a positive deadline day.
23:42But as Phil mentioned, it just didn't reach that exciting crescendo, I think, primarily
23:48because of the way the deals mapped out, but also because that big statement, big money
23:53signing didn't come in.
23:55However, I think what you can say is that Sunderland have actually shown a willingness
23:59to spend money, this transfer window for me.
24:02They've brought players in on deadline day for fees that might not be sort of massive
24:08eye-catching fees, but certainly significant chunks of money.
24:12And I think quite clearly they were willing to spend as the window went on as well.
24:16So, I think there's good and bad to it.
24:20And Phil, is there an argument to be made that, in some respects, it's almost better
24:26to walk away from certain deals because they don't end up being viable financially or whatever
24:31the club might be looking for, than to pursue stuff that ultimately might not benefit Sunderland
24:35in the long run.
24:36So, they might not have got that sort of focal point senior striker that they were looking
24:41for, but maybe that's not the worst thing in the long run if it means that come the
24:44January window that they're in a better position to perhaps bring someone in.
24:49Yeah, I think that would certainly be Sunderland's logic, and I do get it.
24:53I think what you don't want to do is be left in a situation next summer where you feel
24:58like your budget is really, really tight because you saddled to a player who you weren't 100%
25:03sure about and you've ended up spending a lot of money on.
25:06So, I definitely think that you should always try and spend less money wherever possible
25:11because, in theory, that should free you up for future windows.
25:14I just think that it was a little bit underwhelming for everybody because I think, obviously,
25:19that's the way you accept losing your best players, right?
25:22And it's something that clubs like, and we probably talk about them too much, but like
25:26Brighton and Brentford, it's like they lose a player and that must be really disappointing
25:30for the fans and then they go and sign loads of players that you can get really excited
25:33about and I think that's how you, it almost becomes palatable that way, doesn't it?
25:37So, I think we just didn't have that like bang at the end of the window having lost
25:41Clarke.
25:42But, obviously, what you have to do is view the whole summer rather than just that end
25:47point and I think that if you had said to supporters that they would add real championship
25:53experience right through the spine of the squad, that Clarke would go, you know, maybe
25:58for a bit less than people would have liked but would go for a decent sum and that everybody
26:03else would stay, I don't think people would have been dancing about and saying that's
26:07like my dream summer window.
26:08But I think it's like a solid window, I think we can say that.
26:13And ultimately, like, yeah, the striker thing, I think it is a little bit less of an issue
26:18now that Meander's doing so well.
26:20I think the big, the interesting one, it's really hard to judge at the moment, isn't
26:23it?
26:23Because we know Meander is going to have a dip at some point, he just is because we see
26:28that with all the young players.
26:29We don't know enough about Isidore yet, do we?
26:31He has been signed as a striker.
26:33Obviously, as long as Meander plays like this, he's going to come on off the left rather
26:36than playing through the middle.
26:37But we just don't know enough about him yet to be able to fully judge that because ultimately,
26:42like he is, alright, he's not proven in the championship.
26:45He is a senior striker, like he has played a lot of top tier games and he has scored
26:50goals.
26:50So he is a senior striker.
26:52I feel like once we've seen him play 10, 15 games, we'll be able to make a much better
26:57judgment.
26:57Is he in a slightly different category to Meander and Hamier when they first joined,
27:02when they clearly weren't quite ready?
27:03So I do think that my perception of the window will definitely be shaped on how Isidore goes,
27:10I think, over the next 10 to 15 games.
27:14But hopefully, as you get back to your original point, hopefully someone walking away from
27:19some deals means that if they get to January, there shouldn't be any reason.
27:24I'm not saying they should just go and spend loads of money for the sake of it, but if
27:26someone were up there around January, then surely with the Clarke deal, there should
27:31be a bit of scope to go and add one or two bits of real quality to the squad.
27:36And in which case, I think, again, we're always reassessing things as time goes on,
27:40aren't we?
27:40And if that was to happen, then it would look like a solid window.
27:44So yeah, I think it's hopefully this allows some scope for a bit of investment in January
27:50and we can get Ahmad back.
27:52Can I just throw us a little transfer aside on deadline day?
27:56And I know players are only worth what the bidding club is willing to pay for them,
28:01but Jay Stansfield going to Birmingham City, former Sunderland target in League One for a
28:06deal, which was broadly similar to Jack Clarke's to Premier League Ipswich Town, just completely
28:12spun my head like 90 degrees.
28:14It was just insane.
28:16I think the game's gone is the most overused phrase in football, but that was the first
28:22time where I was genuinely like, game's gone, game's gone.
28:26No, it's like, it's incredible, isn't it?
28:30And I think it does add perspective in how distorted the striker market is.
28:35Now, I don't know whether that's because, is it because of the way the game's developed
28:39tactically that, you know, strikers, there aren't as many coming through academies,
28:44they're a rarer commodity, but there is just something about the inverted commas striker
28:50that just sends fees absolutely through the roof.
28:56And I think also there are issues, aren't there, with the way our financial rules are
29:01done, because what we're seeing is clubs basically spending money and spreading it over the cost
29:06of the contract, can't they?
29:07Which is, you know, perfectly legal within the current rules, but I think it's...
29:11Seven-year deal, seven-year deal.
29:13Yeah, yeah, exactly.
29:14And that gives you a bit of an insight into, listen, like, if you've got the money, like,
29:18this is the thing, like, Sandsfield will be a brilliant signing over the next five years
29:22for them.
29:23It'll be really effective and it'll probably get them out of that division.
29:25But, so I wouldn't necessarily say it's a criticism if Birmingham's owners do have the
29:30finance to do that sensibly, then fair play to them.
29:34But it is relevant to bring up and that it just does go to show that there is something
29:38about that specific market that is just really through the roof.
29:44And that's only the fees we're talking about.
29:46We know as well that the wages in that market are a completely different world as well.
29:51So I do think it's sort of relevant and, yeah, maybe we say hats off because they found Eliza
29:58Meander and didn't have to pay 12 million for him.
30:00But I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to get too carried away with Meander, which I've
30:04already done.
30:04So I'm being totally hypocritical.
30:06But it is a long, it is a long season, as we've said all along.
30:11It certainly wasn't a Jay Stansfield sort of fee, but Sunderland's most expensive signing
30:16of the window was Milan, Aleksic, teenage Serbia midfielder.
30:21I mean, not a lot known about him, if we're being completely honest, not also a position
30:26that you would have necessarily expected Sunderland to go out and strengthen in the last
30:31stages of the window, James.
30:33Yeah, I'm hugely, hugely pleased I managed to get that one over the line because he comes
30:37with a big pedigree, doesn't he?
30:39He's played for the Serbian national team.
30:42He's been called up again.
30:43So although he's only 19, I think, is he 19, 18?
30:49Oh, no, sorry, he turned 19 on deadline day, didn't he?
30:51So he signed for Sunderland.
30:53So he was 18 when the interest broke, 19 now.
30:55But by all accounts, hugely talented.
30:58Obviously, I don't watch a lot of football where he's come from.
31:01So I've been relying on the YouTube highlights and clips like the rest of people and then
31:07look at the Twitter for Serbian football experts, really, who all rate him really highly, say
31:11he's really technical, adds more competition to that midfield.
31:15And Sunderland must really, really rate him highly because they've forked out a large
31:20fee. It was said to be 3.7 million euros, which will be probably the biggest fee Sunderland
31:26have paid for a player in a long time, really.
31:30Possibly since Will Greig and before that have been in the Premier League, I'd imagine.
31:35So it's positive, I think, that that one's over the line.
31:38But we just don't know enough about him yet.
31:41Obviously, we haven't seen him play.
31:43He might have been a contender to get some minutes for the under-21s tonight, but obviously,
31:46he's headed away on international duty.
31:49But yeah, with these types of signings, it's exciting, isn't it, because of the unknown.
31:55But it's really, really hard to judge him until you've seen him play 10, 15 games.
32:00But the only thing I can add is that from what I've read on social media and reports
32:07elsewhere, he is hugely, hugely rated and seen as a massive talent in Serbia.
32:13It's so Sunderland, isn't it?
32:14Like, right, lads, what do we need on deadline day?
32:17Probably a striker, maybe a full-back.
32:20Nah, should we just go and sign the 19-year-old Serbian attacking midfielder?
32:24I know we've got, like, 14 attacking midfielders.
32:27But should we just do it anyway?
32:29Nah, like, yeah, it feels very football manager when you've got a bit of your budget left
32:33at the end of the window.
32:34So you're like, right, I'm going to get the filter on, under-20, five-star potential,
32:39get him signed.
32:41I think it's like, the one thing I would say is that it's, we talk about, and the investment
32:46discussion is obviously a big one, and I understand it totally in the context of there have been
32:51times where you felt that by pushing the ball out a little bit with a striker on a
32:55couple of deadline days and stuff, you could potentially push yourself to the Premier League.
32:58And I think there's a really valid debate about at what point does sustainability become
33:03a bit of a sort of straitjacket?
33:05I do get it.
33:06But the one thing you would have to say is that they have always invested in young players
33:11when that opportunity has come along.
33:13And I know that this isn't my argument.
33:15This would be the club's argument.
33:16But I think it's worth saying that with stuff like Stewart and Clark, I think they would
33:20argue as well is that doing those kind of deals means you're always in a position where
33:25you can invest when the right opportunity comes along.
33:28Maybe other clubs who are living a bit closer, sailing a bit closer to the wind with financial
33:32fair play rules and stuff, they don't get to do these deals when they come along because
33:35they don't have that kind of fund, if you like, that they can go and do.
33:39And so I think it does, the way some of them do it, does mean that they can be alive to
33:42these kind of opportunities in the transfer market.
33:45And that's obviously a really exciting thing.
33:47But, you know, I could pretend I know loads about Milano-Leksic, but I definitely don't.
33:52So I can't judge that aspect of it.
33:53But I think it was worth discussing that like financial aspect of it, because as James said,
33:57it's like it's a really significant deal.
34:01And obviously, it also goes back to as well the debate about experience and youth and
34:05that, you know, rightly, there's a balance.
34:07And we talk about having experience.
34:08But these players are coming to Sunderland because they know they're going to play.
34:11And that's, you know, a really important factor as well when we have these debates
34:15about like Sunderland's strategy.
34:17It was so unknown that I actually had to Google his name and double, triple, quadruple check
34:24when the link broke, because there's a polo player, a water polo player of the same name,
34:28quite prominent water polo player of the same name called Milano-Leksic.
34:32So I actually thought I was being duped in the first instance.
34:35And this was sort of one of those social media things that was designed to catch us out.
34:40But it turned out not.
34:41Turned out not indeed.
34:43One of the questions that always get asked in the immediate aftermath of the transfer
34:46window, Phil, is the free agent market.
34:49I mean, there are some names kicking about.
34:51Do you expect Sunderland to entertain any of them at all?
34:54I highly doubt it.
34:56I think if we break it down a bit, what are the positions where you would say that Sunderland
35:00might sort of look to recruit?
35:02They don't need centre arse anymore now that Metheny's in.
35:04They don't need centre midfielders.
35:06They certainly don't need wingers because they've got like, with the academy players
35:09as well, they've got hundreds.
35:10So there's only really strikers and fullbacks.
35:14Now, strikers, we talked about that like proven option, which I get, but they now have four
35:20with Eastdoor as well.
35:21So I don't think you're going to add a fifth player who's going to take time to get match
35:24fit.
35:25I don't think any of the names out there are quite of the calibre where there's any point
35:30bringing them in.
35:31I think if you only had like two strikers, then you might bring one in and say, well,
35:34if they play here and then it's worth doing.
35:37I just don't think there's players of calibre out there to justify doing it.
35:41You know, you have got Bruce in, Eastdoor, me and Abdullahi now.
35:45We know Abdullahi is going to take time to settle, but he has been signed as a first
35:47team player.
35:48And as I say, the only other one is fullback, which, you know, in a way I think there is
35:52possibly a need for, but from, you know, the way Labrice has spoken, I just think if he
35:58gets a fullback injury, he'd either shift 09 across to right back if it's in that scenario,
36:05or maybe yelled at a left back, or he'll go to a back three with Ballardo nine and Mefham
36:10and play wingers at wing backs.
36:12That just seems to be the way he wants to do it.
36:13So I guess the fullback's the one where you go, would you look at it and think there's
36:18potentially a deal to be done there?
36:19But if you think that at least, I know it's a long injury, but he will be back after the
36:22November international break.
36:24He can obviously play at left back with no worries.
36:26I just feel like they're going to crack on.
36:28And put it this way, there has been a much stronger case for doing it in previous
36:33windows and they haven't.
36:34So I think that tells you everything you need to know, really, it's something that they
36:38don't particularly want to do.
36:40And actually they have a pretty big squad now.
36:42It's just a bit, some of the, they've got, obviously there's some positions where they're
36:46a little bit overloaded, but I don't see them adding to it.
36:49Especially when you consider that Aoushish and Bard didn't get a deadline day in May.
36:52There's two players really to bring back into the fold.
36:55Another two attacking players.
36:57Never say never to be fair, like, but I just, I'd be really surprised if they did.
37:02Should we actually wrap things up by talking about a couple of late outgoings as well?
37:06James, when the news broke that Louis Hamier was going to Juventus, did you do the same
37:11double take that I did?
37:13Yes, I did.
37:15And obviously that was one I'm quite keen to get checked out just to see if it was true.
37:21I think Juventus were interested in him, if I remember rightly, before he joined Sunderland
37:24from Benfica.
37:26You know, it's, he's had a tough time.
37:28There's no two ways about it.
37:29Obviously, he had a really good pre-season under Tony Mowbray, and he netted a couple
37:32of goals.
37:34You know, a lot of Sunderland fans might not agree, but there's clearly something there.
37:41We saw that with his goal in pre-season, which was an absolutely phenomenal strike.
37:44We've seen that he's got an eye for goal at times.
37:47I think application will probably be key for Hamier and his career going forward.
37:52I think he just needs to work, you know, to get the ball out of the box.
37:57He just needs to work a little bit more on his positioning.
38:02I think, obviously, Jason, when we were at the under-21s against Middlesbrough, you know,
38:08Watson and Burnett were getting down to the by-line, Tudorov at times as well, and getting
38:13the ball in, and Hamier wasn't yet in the picture.
38:16But then all of a sudden, sometimes Hamier will drop deep, control the ball, pass it
38:20out wide, turn and look really good.
38:22And, you know, it hasn't worked for him at first-team level.
38:26That game against Southampton last season felt like such a turning point.
38:30Sunderland won 5-0, and Hamier was through and should have scored, and he didn't.
38:35Still very young.
38:37Obviously, Juventus have seen something in him.
38:40And to be fair, if the reported financials around that deal are true in terms of there
38:45being an optional buy-out clause, multi-million pound buy-out clause, with add-ons and sell-on
38:53fees as well, then it could be a really good piece of business for Sunderland.
38:55But I just think it was right for Hamier, and interestingly as well, actually, just
39:00to stay on the under-21s beat.
39:02But I think Hamier going allows Trey Ogunsui to step back up into the under-21s set-up.
39:07He'd been with the under-18s for the games against Middlesbrough and Newcastle, which
39:12is a shame because he's a player that I really rate highly.
39:14People might remember that he scored against Reading in that Premier League 2 semi-final
39:18last season.
39:19So he now gets the chance to step up, which I think is just best for everybody all round.
39:24Hamier gets to go to Juventus and they can have a look at him.
39:27But it was a little bit of a surprise.
39:29But I actually think he has some raw materials.
39:32I think he's obviously got a lot of work to do on his game in various aspects as well.
39:37Definitely so, I'd be pretending if I said otherwise, he has a lot of work to do to get
39:43up to any sort of standard, in my opinion.
39:46But I, you know, and again, people might not agree, but I can actually see in flashes,
39:51nowhere near enough, why teams have obviously scouted him and thought they're on to something.
39:58But there's a lot to improve on, a lot.
40:02And Phil, a word on Pierre Equa.
40:04It felt like a little bit of a shame to see him leave on loan, but I mean, probably the
40:08right move for the player at this time.
40:11Yeah, I think so.
40:12But I do think it's a real shame, that one, in terms of, you know, I think like, obviously
40:19last season he didn't, well, actually he started the season superbly, but he just felt like
40:24he was always chasing his form and fitness after that.
40:27He got a dead leg, didn't he?
40:28He produced one of the best individual performances I've ever seen against Southampton.
40:33And then obviously got that injury and just felt like he never really recovered from it.
40:36And I was sort of looking at it and saying, well, yeah, but it's his first full season
40:41of senior professional football.
40:42And we've seen with other players that they can be this good, they can be that good.
40:46And then after a while, they start to find their level sort of there.
40:50So in some ways, I thought it was a real shame.
40:51It all seemed to have unravelled quicker than it needed to.
40:55The flip side of that argument is that sometimes you have got to be pragmatic, both in terms
40:59of the player and the club.
41:00And I can't sit here and say, oh, well, I would have kept Equa and then said very obviously
41:06that Brown, Rigg, Neal, Job and now probably Sam Adder ahead of him.
41:11And it makes no sense to just keep him and not play him.
41:14You know, and now you have to throw in Oleksij to that mix.
41:16It's obviously now Aushish because he hasn't got a move.
41:19So I think it's the right deal.
41:21And I suppose that there's a couple of things to it.
41:24One, I understand there was like a seven-figure loan fee for the season, which is good business.
41:30And I suppose you look at it and go, if San Etienne decide to make their option to buy
41:34him permanent, then someone bring in probably about six million quid next summer, which
41:39is obviously a very good business for a player they signed for not very much at all.
41:43If they choose not to make that option permanent, then he comes back to someone and you can
41:47have another look at him.
41:49So I think it's like, I think it's a real shame.
41:51But I think it's really hard to criticise the deal at the same time.
41:54I can't sit here and say what a brilliant signing Alan Brown is and then say he should
41:58never have got rid of the centre midfielder, he's deplaced, you know.
42:01I do think that one's a shame because he's such a good character as well.
42:05But I think it's probably a fairly sensible, pragmatic decision in the end.
42:09I think it's quite smart, actually, that seven-figure loan fee that Phil mentioned,
42:13because we all know that West Ham are going to be due a significant portion of the transfer
42:18fee when Ecua eventually moves, whether it be to San Etienne or somewhere else.
42:23They're going to be owed somewhere in the region of like 25% to 35%, according to various
42:27different reports.
42:28So that seven-figure loan fee actually goes straight to Sunderland and West Ham I don't
42:32think would touch that.
42:33So it does make a little bit of sense in that regard.
42:35But I really like Pierre Ecua and it was interesting, actually, that when the deal was announced,
42:42Speakman actually sort of left the door open for him a little bit and said they'd reassess
42:46next season because there's no guarantee.
42:48It's an optional deal, isn't it, that San Etienne could take him if he performs well.
42:53But he could well end up back at Sunderland as well in the summer.
42:58Yeah, it's a shame because I think he's got some brilliant, brilliant, brilliant raw
43:05materials and did find himself a tad unlucky.
43:08Obviously, there was just so little scope for substitutions and versatility in that
43:15midfield that he probably did get overplayed alongside Neil and Joe.
43:18But I rate him really highly and I think it's a good opportunity just for a fresh start
43:21for him as well.
43:24Good stuff.
43:25I think that's probably all we've got time for this week, lads.
43:28Thank you for joining me.
43:29Thank you for watching along at home, listening along at home.
43:33We'll be back with the Raw next Monday, I'm sure.
43:36And in the meantime, you can keep up to date with all of the latest Sunderland news on
43:39the Sunderland Dago.
43:40See you again next week.