Sunderland transfer latest after disappointing Ipswich Town loss
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00:00 Hello everybody, welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:26 My name is James Copley, joined as ever by my colleague Phil Smith.
00:30 You can find this podcast on all good podcast places and on Shots TV.
00:35 The Sunland Echo is obviously all across social media and our website online as well and in
00:42 print.
00:43 Phil, how you doing mate?
00:44 Yeah, not bad.
00:45 Tired, cold, disappointed, but other than that all good.
00:52 Yeah, I think disappointment is the correct word for the mood around Sunland at the moment.
00:58 Things have regressed slightly on the pitch.
01:00 Sunland obviously losing 2-1 to Ipswich Town in the Championship on Saturday after taking
01:05 the lead.
01:06 Again, as you mentioned Phil, a disappointing result, but I think to understand Sunland
01:12 fans' feelings fully at the moment, we probably have to take a look at the club as a whole
01:17 and perhaps what's happened over the past month, couple of months.
01:22 I think people are pretty despondent at the moment, despite Sunland's relative decent
01:26 league position, obviously still in seventh, still a long way to play in the season and
01:32 still right up there, but it just feels like the mood has slipped back and that's owing
01:37 to a myriad of factors.
01:38 The situation surrounding the Newcastle game, the ticket and the Black Cats bar, the commercial
01:43 side of the club, all of that stuff, it all seems to have been brought to bear in the
01:49 past couple of weeks and it's culminated with this loss at Ipswich Town, which in isolation
01:53 perhaps isn't the worst result in the world given how Ipswich Town have done this season,
01:57 but it just feels like it's all going backwards a little bit.
02:01 Yeah, I think obviously it's important that we maintain some element of perspective with
02:07 it in terms of, and when I say that I mean specifically the league form.
02:11 Sunland are still on the same number of points as Coventry in sixth, it's seven points from
02:18 five from Michael Bale, which isn't a brilliant return, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but
02:24 it's not a desperate return either with a couple of tricky fixtures in that.
02:29 But I think there's a couple of factors, I agree with you totally, it's something that
02:32 I was thinking about on Saturday coming away from the game, that sort of feel-good factor,
02:37 which I'm not saying it's always been there, over the last 18 months there's been some
02:42 significant bumps in the road, I'm thinking of deadline day with no strikers, all that
02:46 kind of stuff.
02:47 But generally speaking there has been this feeling that the club's heading in the right
02:52 direction, albeit with a few hit-ups, and I think that's probably been mirrored in the
02:57 football that we've seen, you know, that's felt very fearless, very vibrant, it doesn't
03:01 matter who we're playing against, we'll give it a good go.
03:05 And I think a combination of factors, like you said, definitely off-field stuff, which
03:08 is still very much I think lingering over the mood of the club, for the obvious reasons
03:12 that really nothing has happened since the Newcastle game, I don't mean that in a critical
03:17 way, I just mean that we have no great sense at the moment of what actually happened, why
03:22 it happened, and what the club are going to do to remedy it, so that's still at the forefront
03:26 of people's minds.
03:27 And the football at the moment is just nowhere near as good.
03:31 The team, Ipswich is a classic example, it wasn't a dismal performance, I thought the
03:35 application from the players was pretty good.
03:38 You could argue Ipswich's first goal was a bit fortunate in terms of the deflection that
03:41 sort of falls at the Cape and Jackson's path, and they certainly had a big chance to go
03:45 2-1 up without Sheesh, and maybe they'll win it.
03:48 But the football is nowhere near the sort of free-flowing, fluid, incisive nature that
03:54 we saw, not just towards the end of last season, but actually in patches at the start of the
03:59 season.
04:00 I think that particularly away from home, Mite will be looking to tighten the team up
04:04 defensively, and I think that's quite high risk, because if you don't get the result,
04:10 then given the level of football we saw last season, and by that I mean the excitement
04:15 of it, people are going to be really, really disappointed really quickly.
04:19 Now if you win the game, as you did against Hull, when Sunderland didn't create a lot,
04:22 weren't great, but kept a clean sheet and got a jackpot, fine individual strike, then
04:26 you can get away with it, but Saturday was a great example of how if you take a slightly
04:30 more defensive approach, I think, and don't win, then you can open yourself up to a lot
04:35 of criticism.
04:36 So I do think there's a sense at the moment that the team is stagnating a little bit,
04:41 the stats very much bear that out.
04:44 We should say obviously that it's a relatively small sample size, and also over a very, very
04:48 busy festive period when we know performances can be deep and players can be lethargic.
04:53 Yeah, I would say, I think it's a bit early to say the team's regressing, but I would
04:56 definitely say it's stagnated, and there are some really concerning elements, I think,
05:01 at the moment that have to be addressed pretty quickly, because they don't feel like the
05:04 form team, do they?
05:05 They don't feel like the team with the momentum in that play-off push.
05:08 No, they don't, and for me that little spark's gone as well, that exciting Sunderland team,
05:15 it just seems to be on the wane a little bit.
05:18 There is mitigation, as you say, Phil, in terms of it being a busy festive period.
05:22 Sunderland's squad is still on the small side, it's still on the inexperienced side.
05:25 Perhaps this dip was always going to happen, but I find it a little bit of a watch at the
05:30 moment.
05:31 Let's talk about Michael Bale, Phil, because he's been in the post now since the end of
05:34 December.
05:35 Is it too early really to judge him?
05:39 Obviously, we're judging him on a relatively small sample size, as you mentioned.
05:42 There's the Coventry game, the Hull game, the Rotherham game, the Preston game, obviously
05:48 the Newcastle game as well, and now at Switchtown.
05:51 I'll just read through the results quickly.
05:54 Obviously lost 3-0 at home to Coventry in his first game, won away to Hull City, then
05:59 there was the draw with Rotherham, 2-0 win against Preston, then there was the 3-0 loss
06:04 against Newcastle in the FA Cup, and then the 2-1 loss against Ipswich Town.
06:08 He hasn't had much time on the training field, Phil, although he's had a bit more of late.
06:14 I think it's always going to be tough for Michael Bale at Sunderland if they're not
06:19 winning games playing well just because of how he was presented to fans in the beginning.
06:24 They probably thought they were getting one thing and Michael Bale came a bit of left
06:28 field and he wasn't fancied really from the beginning.
06:31 What do you make of his start to life as Sunderland head coach?
06:37 I do think it's a little early to judge him, just as you say.
06:41 I don't think he's had a huge amount of time to get his ideas across to the players.
06:45 I think from the matches that we've seen so far, it's been a little bit of a mixed bag
06:49 in terms of you could look at Saturday and say, 'Strange decision not to pick Rooson,
06:55 strange decision to bring Bar off.'
06:58 And you sort of go, 'It's unusual, how to fathom that.'
07:00 You have to set that against, for example, the Preston game where he made a really good
07:04 decision to play Pritchard in that slightly right-wing role, cut inside and did really,
07:10 really well, picked up the gaps in Preston's back five.
07:12 I think we've seen some good stuff and we've seen some not so good stuff.
07:16 And that's kind of what you expect probably over a fairly small sample of games.
07:21 I think the two things I would say is one is that, as I say, so far, football has not
07:26 been particularly good to watch.
07:28 Now there are some caveats to that in that the schedule has obviously been really demanding,
07:33 not a lot of training time, not a lot of recovery time for players.
07:36 I think some lethargy is to be expected.
07:39 But football has certainly not been as exciting or as free-flowing as we've seen at times
07:43 in the last 18 months and that's a big challenge for him.
07:45 And the other challenge he's got, which is not even really his fault and to the extent
07:49 that I feel some sympathy for him, is that when you take a popular manager who's performing
07:53 pretty well and you talk about sort of detail and high-performance culture and all these
07:59 kind of things, you supporters understandably expect some pretty immediate signs of improvement
08:06 and some signs of that ability, whether it's coaching or tactical things in-game.
08:11 And we haven't seen a huge amount of that yet.
08:14 And that's a big challenge he's got to overcome.
08:15 He was already on the back foot because supporters were a bit underwhelmed by his appointment.
08:21 And like I say, in some ways, the bar was set unbelievably high for him coming in and
08:26 it was always going to be very, very difficult for him to match that.
08:29 So I still do think it's early days, but my sort of instinctive emotional reaction, if
08:34 you like, so far is that I don't feel...
08:37 I feel as if his priority at the moment is to try and tighten the team up defensively.
08:42 And while I can understand why he's looking to do that, it's making for, at the moment,
08:49 a worse product, I think.
08:51 And it'll be interesting to see how that fares over the next few weeks when he's got a couple
08:54 of home games, a couple of full weeks of preparation.
08:57 Will we see the handbrake come off a little bit?
08:59 It's going to be really interesting to see whether that's the case.
09:03 I find it interesting, Phil, that Michael Bale comes to Sunderland in his first press
09:07 conferences and in a couple of press conferences after.
09:11 He says that he's fully aligned with the vision and the structure of Sunderland, and I'm sure
09:15 he is.
09:16 But then during games, he starts to, as he says himself, look over his shoulder and he's
09:23 struggling to bring on players to affect the game.
09:26 He made that comment after the Newcastle United game, which was absolutely fair.
09:29 So this little slump that Sunderland are enduring at the moment and these shortcomings in the
09:35 squad building and the transfer strategy, they've always been there and it's consecutive
09:39 managers whether it's been Alex Neil, Tony Mowbray or even Mike Dodds and now Michael
09:44 Bale.
09:45 It's worth noting, my point is, it's worth noting that Michael Dale can only really deal
09:50 with the hand he's dealt as well, whether you think Sunderland should be playing a little
09:53 bit better, in my opinion, than they probably should be at the moment.
09:57 But it is worth noting that this squad is still very inexperienced, still lacking a
10:01 striker and it's lacking that sprinkle of Ahmad quality that Stardust did last season.
10:08 Yeah, definitely.
10:09 I think that's absolutely true.
10:11 A big part of what I would say as well, as you kind of alluded to there with Bale, is
10:15 that he needs a little bit of help as well, in exactly the same way that Tony Mowbray
10:18 would have needed a bit of help in this window.
10:21 A striker is certainly one.
10:24 I think it's fair to say on that front that, having talked up Rhyson ahead of the Newcastle
10:28 game and with Rhyson getting his goal against Preston, it was then an odd decision not to
10:33 pick him on Saturday.
10:34 I'm not saying it was the wrong decision, by the way.
10:37 I actually like Job up front.
10:38 I think he's got a lot that really works and I can understand against a team who play three
10:42 at the back, see a lot of the ball are very strong.
10:45 Job's athleticism and his tactical understanding I think makes him really good for that role.
10:50 There's maybe a separate debate over whether Job needs a rest at the moment, but I'd say
10:54 that's a separate one.
10:55 But my point being, I don't think it was an unbelievable decision not to pick Rhyson,
10:59 but I thought it was a strange one given the way that he talked him up a week before.
11:05 But I would stress as well that, yeah, he needs a little bit of help and we would have
11:09 said exactly the same if it was Tony Mowbray in charge.
11:12 Up front and also in centre midfield, I think for me the balance of the side just isn't
11:16 right at the moment.
11:17 And it's not about, sometimes it feels like when you say going out and getting the midfield,
11:21 people think you mean like grizzled 32-year-old playing 700 games.
11:26 For me, it's not about that.
11:27 It's a tactical thing.
11:28 It's about somebody who actually wants to play as a older midfielder, who relishes cutting
11:33 out counter-attacks, who relishes just coming to the centre of the arc, taking the ball,
11:37 moving it on.
11:38 For me, Ekwer, I think from what we've seen of him so far, to me, he's just someone who
11:45 you want to be playing further forward.
11:46 He's a bit more dynamic, a bit more box to box, a bit more objective.
11:50 I think so.
11:51 And let's be honest as well, let's be fair, he's only eight months into his career as
11:54 a senior footballer, so he was always going to have ebbs and flows in terms of his form.
11:59 He was never going to just crack it.
12:01 But I think tactically, I just think someone needs someone who can help unlock Ekwer.
12:08 I mean, Neil's been brilliant this season, but both of them I think are better further
12:11 forward.
12:12 And even Job, you know, you can then, I think if you have a proper older midfielder, you
12:15 can then play Job as a really aggressive box to box midfielder as well.
12:19 So, yeah, to me, that's a little bit of a no-brainer.
12:22 But we kind of expected them to address that in the last two transfer windows after Corrie
12:27 Aston-Green, they didn't, which suggests that Speakman and the recruiting team see it differently
12:32 to what we do.
12:33 So, that's going to be really interesting in the next few weeks as well.
12:35 You know, are they seeing Jamie Tetter coming back in and playing that discipline number
12:39 six role in the championship?
12:41 For me, and for what I saw of him at Plymouth last season on loan, he is not that type of
12:46 player.
12:47 I think he's a dribbler.
12:48 I think he's an ace.
12:49 In fact, he wasn't starting games because Stephen Schumacher said he's so enthusiastic
12:55 that when we need a level of control in the beginning, that we're not actually starting
12:58 him and he's coming on to affect the game later on.
13:01 He's a very energetic midfielder, possibly in the mould of what we've already got.
13:05 Yeah, I think Mattet is an ace as well.
13:08 That's my opinion.
13:09 I think he's another player who, if you play him and hold a midfield, he can do a job,
13:13 but you're taking away the best aspect of his game, which is to get in people's faces,
13:18 which is to carry.
13:19 Mattet is really good at carrying the ball 20, 30 yards.
13:23 Once he does that, you can release Clark out wide or Roberts.
13:27 So yeah, I personally don't see Mattet as the answer.
13:30 Maybe the club do.
13:31 Obviously, they see him a lot more in training and have their analysis and stuff.
13:36 But yeah, for me, like I say, it's not necessarily about, 'Oh, you need another Corey Evans,
13:42 a player with 400 career appearances.'
13:44 It's not about that.
13:45 Mattet, for me, is someone who actually sees that as their role and has a level of it.
13:52 Even if it's experience in terms of having done it coming up through the age groups,
13:55 that's fine by me.
13:56 Do you know what I mean?
13:57 But just someone who relishes that role.
13:59 I think that's really important in this window.
14:01 Because for me, as I say, like Eko and Neil almost played quite defensive roles on Saturday
14:08 in order to try and sort of frustrate Ipswich.
14:11 And I can kind of understand why you would do that.
14:13 But for me, they're just not the players to do it.
14:16 So it almost feels as if Bale is taking away some of the team's strengths.
14:22 And we're not really seeing a significant upside at the other end.
14:25 I know you could argue that Kepa Kelingchi against Preston, Kepa Kelingchi against Hull,
14:29 which away from home is no main feat.
14:31 So maybe I'm overreacting a little bit to the Ipswich game.
14:34 But I just feel like we've lost some...
14:38 The Hull game, there shouldn't have been Kepa Kelingchi.
14:40 It could have gone either way.
14:42 That's my feeling at the moment, is that in order to try and tighten things up,
14:45 we're losing quite a bit in the final third.
14:47 Admittedly, there were some issues there already.
14:49 And actually, we're not seeing...
14:52 It doesn't mean that we're now conceding significantly less chances to the opposition as a result.
14:57 So I don't think the balance is quite there yet.
14:59 And personally, I think a centre midfielder would be just as important as a striker.
15:03 But, you know, some people may disagree with that.
15:06 No, I think so. I agree.
15:08 I think as well, if you have a different type of centre midfielder,
15:11 it does open up for a little bit more tactical flexibility and fluidity as well,
15:15 whether someone could play, you know, with a three midfield for some games
15:19 instead of this 4-2-3-1, which has worked really well and is really good to watch.
15:23 But sometimes you do need a little bit of control in games.
15:27 If you're watching on the telly, we're going to have a brief advertisement break.
15:30 And then we're going to come back and talk about everybody's favourite topic, transfers.
15:37 Right, Phil, it's been a bizarre transfer window.
15:39 It's the 15th of January. Nothing's really happened.
15:42 Nothing's really happened up and down the country other than Eric Diagon
15:46 to Bayern Munich, Carvalho signed for Hulburt.
15:50 Other than that, I'm struggling, really.
15:52 It seems very quiet, very flat.
15:54 Obviously, we've been preoccupied by a Newcastle game on the 6th,
15:58 all of that sort of stuff.
16:00 It's strange. It's bizarre.
16:02 We know Sunderland are targeting a striker.
16:05 You know, what type of striker are they going to be targeting?
16:07 Will they be able to get one? Will it be long? Will it be permanent?
16:10 There's all these sorts of questions, Phil.
16:12 Yeah, I think we have a fair idea of what they'd like to do.
16:15 I think part of the reason why it's been a slow start is because
16:18 probably what they're looking for, I mean, to be fair,
16:20 if you look at the last five-something windows,
16:23 historically, Sunderland tend to do quite a bit of business on deadline day
16:27 for whatever reason. Not particularly good for us, but that's fine,
16:31 as long as they get it done.
16:33 Well, I think the first thing to say is obviously the priority is a striker,
16:37 but Bale has made pretty clear, and to be fair, I don't think anyone would disagree,
16:41 it's pointless just bringing in another inexperienced young striker
16:44 to just add to the pot, if you like, because you've already got four.
16:47 So you've actually already got a bit of a challenge in terms of managing game time
16:50 and keeping players sharp and what have you.
16:53 So Bale's made pretty clear that if a player's going to come in,
16:55 it's someone where we're going to be pretty confident that
16:57 they can come in and a week later be starting and improving the team.
17:02 I think that demands a level of experience,
17:05 well, just in football generally, but at this level,
17:08 that limits your options massively.
17:10 And it also means that those players that you want to sign,
17:13 there's probably about 10 other Championship clubs who want to sign them.
17:15 And I think speaking, you know, I don't know exactly where the deal's at,
17:18 but Kiefer Moore's a great example, right?
17:20 So everybody knows that Kiefer Moore's potentially available this month
17:24 and half the Championship clients sign Kiefer Moore.
17:26 That puts Bournemouth in a pretty strong position.
17:28 Is anyone going to stump up to pay for a permanent deal,
17:31 which would be ideal for them?
17:32 If not, who's going to put the best package forward in terms of wages?
17:36 And also, of course, who can convince the player that he's going to get
17:39 regular game time?
17:40 Because his big thing is, you know, he wants to be in the Wales side
17:44 for those playoff games later this year, potentially for the Euros.
17:48 And so I think there's a reason why it's been very, very slow so far.
17:51 I think a lot of teams compete for a very, very small pool of players.
17:55 And that means the Southern Club obviously has all the cards, if you like.
18:00 And we're actually seeing that, for example, with Sunderland
18:04 in terms of outgoing.
18:05 So I think there are quite a few young players who Sunderland
18:07 would potentially be willing to loan out.
18:08 But they're not going to do that until they've got their own business sorted,
18:11 particularly not with Robertson, Dak injured and Huggins and Serkin
18:14 because the depth isn't massive at the moment.
18:16 So I think there are reasons why it's been a slow window so far.
18:20 And I think it probably tells us that Sunderland are slightly doing
18:25 different business in this particular window and probably looking for
18:27 a little bit more experience.
18:28 I expect it to be loans.
18:29 I don't see them changing their model in terms of signing players on permanence
18:33 who are at the other end of their career or more towards the other end of their career.
18:37 So, yeah, I feel like it is going to be a relatively quiet window
18:42 and maybe a bit of a tense one as well to see if Sunderland will get what they need.
18:46 We've got about six minutes left, so we'll rush through another couple of topics.
18:51 You know, Keefer Moo is probably the name on everybody's lips
18:54 in terms of incomings, but outgoings, there's been a couple of rumours,
18:57 you know, Anthony Patterson links with Liverpool and whatnot.
18:59 Can't see that happening.
19:00 But the other big transfer story that will likely rumble on is Jack Clark.
19:04 We know Sunderland are in a really strong position in terms of his contract,
19:07 two and a half years.
19:08 So it would take a monster bid really to dislodge him from Sunderland in January.
19:13 And if that did happen, which there's always a chance,
19:16 it would be a tough sell to fans and to Michael Bale,
19:19 because this team's over-reliance on Jack Clark this season.
19:22 It's, you know, it's obvious.
19:25 Yeah, I just can't see, obviously a big part of Sunderland's recruitment strategy
19:28 in inverted commas is to have successors in the building,
19:31 so that when you sell a player, you're not essentially held to ransom
19:34 when you then go out and try and get their replacement.
19:36 At the moment, there's nobody even close to coming to the level
19:39 that what Jack Clark brings to this team at the moment.
19:42 So I just can't really see how Sunderland could make that decision,
19:47 to be honest with you.
19:48 I think it would be too big a loss.
19:50 And I think to be fair as well, we've got to put it in perspective.
19:52 I know there's a lot of noise around Clark.
19:55 And clearly, if a Premier League team, you know, slaps 20 million quid on the table,
19:58 it's going to be a very different conversation.
20:00 But Clark, you know, didn't ask for a move in the summer.
20:04 At this point, he has not knocked on anybody's door
20:06 and Sunderland didn't ask for a move.
20:07 He is happy, he is settled.
20:09 His performances continue to speak for themselves in that regard.
20:12 And I think he's made it pretty clear that if someone meets the club's valuation
20:16 from the Premier League, he would like to test himself at that level
20:18 and he'll go and have that conversation.
20:20 But he's not pushing for a move either.
20:22 Absolutely, there's no sense of that whatsoever at Sunderland.
20:26 And so I think fans can take a little bit of reassurance from that.
20:29 I do think Sunderland are in a very difficult position
20:31 if they don't win promotion this year.
20:32 I think given that Clark at that point will have two years on this deal,
20:35 there's no sign of a new one.
20:38 His value would be pretty much at its peak to Sunderland at that point.
20:42 I think it'd be very, very difficult to keep hold of him.
20:44 But as of now, you know, with the obvious caveat, as you rightly mentioned,
20:47 it can change very, very quickly.
20:49 I don't think there's a huge panic on Clark at the moment.
20:52 It could look very silly in a few days' time and two weeks' time, of course it could.
20:57 But at the moment, like I say, the thing that makes me think that it's unlikely
21:01 in this window is, as I said, there's been no suggestions whatsoever
21:03 that the player is getting a bit angsty and looking at the exit door.
21:07 And as long as that's the case, Sunderland are in a pretty strong position to resist,
21:12 unless it is a transformative offer, which will, of course, make things very difficult.
21:17 Yeah, worth noting as well that Tottenham are due a slice of any fee that Clark has sold for.
21:22 Just as an aside, Phil, it's a bit of a crazy thought, really,
21:25 to Clark signed for Sunderland initially in League One
21:30 and then they managed to sign him on a four-year contract after promotion.
21:34 It's quite impressive in a way, actually.
21:35 I know we haven't given anybody much credit on this podcast,
21:38 but that deal in particular, albeit a couple of years ago now, was a good one.
21:43 Yeah, an outstanding deal.
21:45 And the reality is that, yeah, it's not ideal that Tottenham have a significant sell-on
21:49 and all of that, but Clark wouldn't be here otherwise.
21:53 And the Sunderland recruitment team do deserve a huge amount of credit,
21:55 and similar with Patrick Roberts, it's easy to see the level that they're at now
21:59 and think that it was a really obvious thing to sign them.
22:02 Any club in the Championship could have signed Jack Clark on loan.
22:06 Tony Mobley was on record saying he rejected the chance to sign him at Blackburn
22:09 because he thought he totally lost his way.
22:12 It was a really clever, educated gamble by Sunderland to think that in their environment
22:19 and with game time, they could get him back up to the level he'd shown
22:21 at the early stages of his career.
22:22 There was nothing inevitable about it.
22:25 So, yeah, I think, you know, I agree with you, maybe sort of belatedly,
22:29 we can give some real praise to that.
22:31 And Roberts was the same.
22:32 He owed Roberts his career was at the crossroads.
22:35 There was nothing inevitable about the level he's reached either.
22:38 So, yeah, a lot of credit is due for that.
22:40 And when Clark eventually goes, it'll be frustrating for sure.
22:46 But, you know, the club will be in a fairly strong position as a result of it,
22:49 because like with Ross Stewart, they're going to be banking a huge profit.
22:53 - Yeah, brilliant player.
22:54 Funny to think that he played left wing-back as well a lot of the time
22:57 when he first came to the club.
22:58 He's developed somewhat since then.
23:01 Just quickly, Phil, on a couple of other outgoings, potentially,
23:06 the two I was thinking off the top of my head, you may disagree with this,
23:08 you may want to throw another name in there,
23:11 would be perhaps Mason Birstow goes back to Chelsea if Sunderland can get a striker in.
23:16 And then there's also the Jefferson Bennett question as well, isn't there?
23:20 - Yeah, well, I mean, Birstow, Peel said last week that they'd had the conversation
23:23 with Chelsea and he stays here.
23:26 Yeah, obviously, Birstow played for Chelsea in the Premier League
23:31 and the Caravaro Cup earlier this season,
23:32 which means that Chelsea don't have the option to send him on loan anywhere else.
23:36 Sorry, this window.
23:37 So from that perspective, it's a case of does Birstow come back here,
23:40 but he's probably only going to play under-21s football,
23:42 or do we try and leave him to fight for his place?
23:46 As you mentioned, if Sunderland weren't to go out and get Keith Moore
23:50 and play with that stature, and then all of a sudden,
23:52 Rooson's probably second choice and then Birstow's maybe a third choice,
23:56 will Chelsea change their opinion, possibly?
24:00 But Peel made pretty clear he sees that as unlikely.
24:03 And I agree with you, I think he's definitely a contender for a loan move,
24:07 it's been discussed, and other players are pretty open to it as well,
24:10 because he wants minutes, he's got his international career to think about.
24:13 At the moment, Sunderland aren't prepared to sanction it,
24:15 because they're just, with Robertson and Dak injured,
24:17 they feel they might need that little bit of something off the bench
24:21 in stages of games.
24:23 And they're also, something they're thinking long and hard about,
24:26 because Bennett, if he goes out on loan, has to play,
24:30 but it also needs to be an environment where he continues, I think,
24:33 to learn the language, because that's obviously understandably
24:35 been one of the big barriers for him, as it has been with Rooson.
24:38 And it also needs to be in a team that plays with a similar style,
24:42 so that you can integrate into what Sunderland actually want from him.
24:45 So I think it's really, actually really tricky,
24:47 and it would be the same with, for example, Louis Hamier,
24:50 if they decided to loan him out.
24:52 It's one thing to sign him to loan, but finding the right destination
24:55 that will actually improve the issues he's faced over the last six months,
24:59 12 months, is a totally different question.
25:02 So yeah, I think there'll be some loan departures,
25:03 but I think that will be right at the end of the window,
25:05 because at the moment, to be fair,
25:07 I don't think Sunderland have got the depth with the injuries
25:09 they've got to sanction four or five loans.
25:13 It's interesting with Hamier and Bennett, isn't it?
25:15 Obviously, Bennett's been here a little bit longer,
25:17 but these players haven't been in England or the North East very long.
25:21 They're probably only just settling in the area that they're in now.
25:24 So to then move them somewhere else in the country,
25:26 or even if just for a short stint, is again a little bit disruptive,
25:30 because, you know, players are human beings.
25:32 They need a degree of stability as well, don't they?
25:35 Yeah, exactly that.
25:36 And, you know, while you might be tempted to look for a loan move abroad,
25:39 where they might find it easier in terms of the playing style
25:41 and like you say, the environment,
25:43 the question is, are you going to just have the same issues
25:46 when they come back to Sunderland in the summer, you know?
25:48 So yeah, a really tricky one.
25:50 And as you say, we primarily look at it from the football element,
25:54 but actually the human element is more important in these scenarios.
25:58 And you've got to find the place that, as you say, won't disrupt,
26:01 you know, that process of kind of like integration
26:03 and settling that they're on at the moment.
26:05 So yeah, that's a really, really tricky one.
26:08 And while I do think they're open to a loan,
26:10 I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't either for those reasons.
26:14 Absolutely.
26:14 Well, you can stay up to date with all of the latest transfer news
26:17 over on the Sunderland Echo website.
26:18 We're all over socials as well.
26:21 This podcast goes out live on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube,
26:24 also available after the event on Shots TV and all good podcast platforms.
26:31 Thank you once again, Phil, for joining me
26:33 and thank you for listening to The Raw Podcast.
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