Sunderland's away woes continue after 2-0 loss to Plymouth Argyle at Home Park
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00:37 Hello and welcome to the broadcast brought to you by the Sutherland Echo.
00:41 My name's James and I'm joined by my colleague today, Joe Nicholson,
00:45 here to talk you through Sutherland's 2-0 loss to Plymouth Argyle
00:49 at Home Park in the Championship on Saturday.
00:51 Joe, you were down in Plymouth, very disappointed,
00:54 lots of good attacking players and patterns,
00:58 but the same problem seems to dog Sutherland,
01:01 especially away from home, is that they can't put the ball on the back of the net.
01:04 What did you make of it?
01:06 Yeah, frustrating afternoon, wasn't it, for Sutherland going there
01:08 and the fans that went all that way down to Plymouth for a disappointing result.
01:13 In terms of the game, I actually thought Sutherland started quite brightly
01:16 in the first 15, 20 minutes, got into some good areas.
01:21 I thought Jack Clarke and Patrick Roberts were getting some balls
01:24 in some good areas in the wide positions,
01:26 but that opening goal around the 24-minute mark, wasn't it,
01:30 from Morgan Whittaker was an excellent strike.
01:34 Really gave Sutherland an uphill task and then conceding the second one
01:37 right before half-time gave them a lot to do.
01:40 The damage was really done in that first 45 minutes.
01:44 I think Bray made two attacking substitutions at half-time
01:47 by bringing on Eliza, Meyenda and Adelo Oshish.
01:50 I thought Sutherland did look more of a threat in that second half.
01:53 Obviously, they were chasing the game at 2-0 down,
01:56 didn't have as much to lose.
01:58 It could have gone the other way. Plymouth had chances maybe on the break
02:01 and could have made the scoreline even more convincing,
02:04 but Sutherland were creating the better chances.
02:06 They hit the post a couple of times.
02:07 There was that header from Try Hume that hit the post.
02:10 Oshish had a good chance. I thought he looked bright when he came on,
02:12 but he had a good chance on a rebound.
02:14 If one of those goes in, it makes the game quite interesting.
02:17 Sutherland had a chance to get back in it,
02:19 but they just couldn't find that goal.
02:21 As you say, that lack of cutting edge costing them away from home.
02:26 Another game without a striker scoring.
02:28 That's now an extended run.
02:30 I think we worked out it was about 22 competitive games now
02:33 that Sutherland have gone without a recognised striker scoring.
02:36 Obviously, they have found other ways to score from other areas of the pitch,
02:39 most notably through Jack Clarke.
02:41 But it is an issue that a lot of people are talking about.
02:44 I'm sure we'll probably touch on more in the rest of the podcast.
02:48 I'll just run through some numbers here when it comes to Sunderland
02:53 playing away from home.
02:54 Last Saturday against Plymouth Argyle, 24 shots from Sunderland,
02:59 five on target.
03:00 When they played Swansea, Swansea went out to 10 men.
03:03 Sunderland had 25 shots, three on target.
03:07 There was then the Wanderloss to Leicester City.
03:09 Sunderland had 13 shots, only the three on target.
03:12 But Leicester only had eight.
03:14 All of these games, they are having more attempts on goal
03:17 than their opponents.
03:18 Then you go back to Stoke City, 18 shots from Sunderland,
03:22 seven on target.
03:23 They lose that game 2-1.
03:24 They had more shots again than their opponent.
03:29 Now, those stats, Joe, you can look at them and say,
03:34 perhaps Sunderland have been unlucky.
03:37 Is it, to your eye, is it a case of Sunderland not finishing
03:42 those chances off?
03:43 Or are those chances not quality?
03:45 Are some of those shots shot to nothings?
03:47 Is there a problem with Sunderland's attack and how it's functioning?
03:51 Just thinking in terms of, yes, Jack Clarke's output has been
03:54 very impressive this season.
03:56 Again, Patrick Roberts, although it's good news he signed
03:58 his new contract, he hasn't started to fire yet.
04:01 Unfortunately, one of the four strikers that have been brought
04:04 into the club, it hasn't worked for any of them just quite yet,
04:08 although there has been some near misses.
04:10 Just spitballing here, but I can think of two or three,
04:13 four or five occasions maybe where Sunderland have hit the bar
04:16 of the post recently.
04:18 There's been little bobbles for Roos.
04:20 So, I mean, what are we really sort of putting this down to?
04:24 Or is it too hard to say?
04:27 Is it a lack of cutting edge?
04:28 Or is it that Sunderland just aren't very good in attack?
04:31 I think it's a real tough one to dissect because you can have
04:37 an unlucky game, can't you, where you have a lot of shots
04:39 and you just can't score.
04:41 But Sunderland are away from home having these problems quite often,
04:44 and it's resulting in losses, which is a shame.
04:47 So, it's that juxtaposition, isn't it?
04:49 Sunderland perhaps have been unlucky, but this is now a theme and a trend.
04:53 Well, the other thing that I was looking at is the expected goals table
04:56 in the Championship.
04:57 So, Sunderland are actually third for expected goals.
05:00 Behind only Ipswich and Leicester, the top two.
05:03 Now, to put that in perspective, there is a little bit of perspective
05:06 that needs to come with that because some of the games you mentioned,
05:09 the Swansea game, for example, Swansea were down to 10 men
05:11 for most of the game.
05:12 So, you would expect Sunderland to be creating better chances.
05:15 The Plymouth one on Saturday, for example, they were two goals down.
05:18 So, they were chasing the game in the second half.
05:20 So, you would expect them to be attacking to get back into the game.
05:24 But clearly, Sunderland haven't been taking the chance.
05:27 I think they are getting some balls into some good areas,
05:30 particularly through Clark and Roberts out wide.
05:33 And a couple of managers and players from opposition teams have mentioned
05:38 that Sunderland's main threat really is through Clark and Roberts on the wings.
05:42 Sunderland do get the ball out wide.
05:44 Those two are very good at beating people, dribbling past players.
05:48 And now we're seeing a lot of teams are doubling up on them.
05:51 Then the space will open up in other areas.
05:54 Sunderland haven't really been able to maximise those positions.
05:57 Now, the strikers, there's four of them, isn't there, with Berstow, Roosin,
06:01 Hemiya and Mienda. Now, all young, all have come in.
06:07 And it's not just them that are missing chances, you have to say.
06:10 I think there's other players in the team that are missing these chances
06:14 and other players have to chip in with goals.
06:16 Jack Clark, we mentioned, I think it was maybe on last week's podcast
06:19 or the podcast before, has chipped in with around 30% of Sunderland's goals,
06:24 over 30%. And he was, if you look at all the top teams in the championship,
06:28 he scored the most of the team's top scorer for that team.
06:32 So a lot of Sunderland's goals have come through him.
06:35 A few of them have come through penalties, but we've said before,
06:37 he's won the penalty. So clearly other players do need to step up
06:41 in those goal-scoring areas. Strikers obviously need to start putting the ball
06:45 in the back of the net, but also players in the final third as well
06:48 need to contribute as well. So it's frustrating at the minute
06:52 because Sunderland are creating the chances, but yeah,
06:55 they're just not taking them at the minute.
06:58 Yeah, I read somewhere as well that Jack Clark created eight chances
07:02 for team-mates, which was the most of any player from any club
07:05 in game week 17 in the championship.
07:09 I want to talk a little bit about team selection, Joe.
07:14 Tony Mowbray decided to restore Dan Ballard and Luke O'Neill.
07:17 His first-choice central defenders to the side.
07:20 Obviously, that was changing a winning side against Birmingham City
07:25 where Sealton and Treantis came in through suspension and injury
07:28 in the end to Dennis Surgan. I did see a few complaints
07:32 about the decision to bring Luke O'Neill back in, not so much Ballard.
07:36 I always thought he wouldn't do that, Joe, because he's made clear
07:39 that there is his first-choice central defensive partnership.
07:44 I think, obviously, results always cloud the narrative, of course.
07:49 But had Tony Mowbray started with Sealton and Treantis, again,
07:53 not changed that winning side and Sunderland lost, I think he would have
07:55 got criticised for not bringing at least Ballard back in '09 in any way.
07:59 So, I thought he was damned if he do, damned if he don't in that situation.
08:03 Personally, I think bringing the two experienced centre-backs back in
08:07 for this game was probably the right call. It just hasn't worked out.
08:11 Yeah, I think that was always going to be the case if both of them were fit.
08:15 Obviously, there was a bit of a question mark about Ballard's injury.
08:19 He picked up a bit of a hamstring issue, didn't he, while he was away with Northern Ireland?
08:22 But that obviously was fine. I think those two were always going to be
08:25 restored to the starting XI. I think those two have formed a decent partnership
08:29 this season. I think when Sealton and Treantis came in for that Birmingham game,
08:33 I think it was a big ask for both of them coming in.
08:36 I think, ideally, Mowbray would have put one in alongside a, I don't know,
08:39 a nine or a Ballard, more of an experienced player.
08:42 They were also very good leaders on the pitch as well, very good talkers
08:46 to their team-mates, I think particularly O'Nine. I think it was really taken on
08:50 that captain's role this season with Corey Evans out, still injured.
08:53 I think he's really good influence around the dressing room
08:57 with some of the younger players. Now, you could argue he should have done
09:02 a lot better for the second goal, shouldn't he, when Finezaz cut inside of him?
09:06 But I think Sealton and Treantis are still very young, still very inexperienced
09:11 at this level, and it would have been a big call to leave out either O'Nine
09:15 or Ballard. I think they were always going to come back into the side
09:19 because of that experience, because of what they've done in the past.
09:23 I thought with Sealton and Treantis, that Birmingham game, although Sunderland
09:26 won the game, I thought the early signs, they did look a bit shaky,
09:30 understandably so, because they'd come in for making their first championship
09:34 starts, and you've got two 20-year-old centre-backs that are playing in front
09:37 of 40,000 people, probably the biggest crowd that they've played in front of.
09:41 And they grew into the game, and they contributed to that win,
09:44 but I still think O'Nine and Ballard are a level above them,
09:48 and when they're available, Mowbray's going to pick those two
09:51 as his first-choice centre-backs.
09:53 Yeah, so, I mean, a lot of the noise surrounding this loss on social media,
10:01 Jérôme, I'm sure you saw it as well, was people beginning to question
10:05 Tony Mowbray, which is completely fine. Natural managers, head coaches
10:10 at football clubs tend to get questioned for their decisions,
10:12 for their substitutions. For form, after wins, after losses, that's fine,
10:17 but I did see it sort of veer into questioning his position as well
10:22 from some outlets and some people. I personally think that's a bit strong
10:26 at this stage. Obviously, Sunderland's form has been a little bit patchy,
10:30 they've improved at home, but we've seen away from home,
10:33 it's not been as good as it was last season.
10:37 I have seen enough in the performances, for me, I don't think there's any
10:42 sort of panic stations yet. Sunderland are in ninth after that result,
10:45 only two points off the playoffs. I think they're still better off
10:49 than they were this time last season, or maybe level now,
10:51 I can't remember exactly. Still early days, still haven't hit that busy
10:56 Christmas period yet. I mean, we won the last two on the bouncer
10:59 before the international break. Yes, there's been some extremely
11:02 frustrating moments this season, but for me, I think fair enough
11:06 if Sunderland go on and lose the next two or three, I think as a football manager,
11:09 you're only ever two, three, four bad results on the trot away from being
11:13 seriously questioned. But it's interesting, isn't it, Joe, because that talk
11:17 comes surrounded by the backdrop of Sunderland and Sunderland fans,
11:23 rightly so, wanting the club to push on, push for the playoffs,
11:27 push for automatics as well. I think at some point, yes, the league's stronger.
11:32 But for me, I did find that slightly jarring, actually, that people
11:36 were questioning Mowbray to the degree of some actually calling for his head as well.
11:42 I thought that was very, very premature. As I say, if in three or four,
11:47 five games' time, things aren't right, then absolutely fair enough.
11:51 And I do understand as well that was an extremely frustrating result.
11:54 People have paid a lot of money to go down to Plymouth. It's a long way as well.
11:58 The away form hasn't been great. But where do you stand on that?
12:01 And what are your opinions?
12:04 I think it comes back to kind of perspective. I spoke to Luka Nain after the game,
12:07 and you look at where Sunderland are, as you said, the two points off the playoffs.
12:12 A couple of results can easily change the narrative.
12:15 I think it's way too over the top to be questioning Mowbray's kind of position
12:18 at this stage. And I don't think many people really realistically are.
12:23 But yeah, there's still two points off the playoffs,
12:26 and a couple of results can change it very quickly.
12:29 Obviously, results, there are going to be a reaction to bad results.
12:32 Remember back to the start of the season, Sunderland lost their first two league games
12:35 against Ipswich and Preston. Both narrow games could have easily gone very differently.
12:41 And there was a bit of frustration bubbling over then.
12:44 But then they went on a run of winning, I think it was four of their next five games,
12:48 and suddenly the picture looked very different.
12:51 And a couple of the stats we've mentioned earlier, looking at the expected goals,
12:55 Sunderland are third in expected goals, if they'd have taken a couple of their chances,
12:59 the league table could look very different.
13:01 You have got a couple of really strong teams at the top of the championship this year.
13:06 As we've mentioned before, I think the championship is going to be a stronger division
13:10 than last year when Sunderland ended up in the playoffs with around 69 points,
13:15 which was very low to get into the playoffs, as well as they did to get into that position.
13:20 But you've got Ipswich and Leicester setting a blistering pace.
13:23 You've got Leeds in there, you've got Southampton in there.
13:25 A lot of very strong teams fighting for those playoff spots.
13:29 And there'll be a lot of teams that have realistic expectations to try and get into the playoffs.
13:34 And Sunderland are one of those teams.
13:36 And the narrative, as we've said, can change very quickly.
13:40 Starting with that Plymouth game last weekend, it was the first of 10 games in 39 days for Sunderland.
13:48 So, the league table could look very different.
13:52 By the time we get to January 1st, the league table could look very different.
13:57 And there'll be a lot of points up for grabs.
14:00 And as I said, the performances have not been terrible.
14:05 If you look at the performance between both boxes, as we mentioned earlier,
14:09 Sunderland are kind of outperforming their opponents in terms of expected goals.
14:14 In the middle of the pitch, things are pretty good. But it's just in both boxes.
14:18 They've not been able to add that final thing to score that goal or to keep a goal out.
14:24 It was an excellent strike from Whittaker to open the scoring for Plymouth on Saturday.
14:28 How many times is an opponent going to do that?
14:31 Although Sunderland probably should have been aware that he likes to cut inside onto his left foot and shoot.
14:35 But how many times is a goal like that going to go in?
14:38 And that completely changed the narrative of the game and the direction the game was going in.
14:43 So I think it's still too early to kind of panic or anything like that.
14:49 I'm not sure how many points Sunderland had after 17 games last season,
14:53 but I don't think people were kind of eyeing up a playoff spot.
14:56 Obviously, what they did last season has raised expectations.
14:59 But as we said before, there's a lot of teams trying to get into that top six and will expect to be getting into the top six.
15:05 And Sunderland are one of them.
15:07 Big kind of few weeks coming up with a lot of games, starting with the home game against Huddersfield on Wednesday.
15:13 Yeah, I think from memory, I think we're three points ahead of where we were last season.
15:19 But I need to double check that. But yeah, we're there or thereabouts.
15:23 It's interesting that we're having this sort of, we're talking about Sunderland in terms of XG expected goals.
15:29 And I know some of my friends and some people will be listening to this podcast,
15:33 probably tearing their hair out, saying that, you know, what does XG mean?
15:37 You've got to perform on the pitch and whatnot.
15:40 But there's a reason XG has been so widely adopted by football as an industry.
15:45 All of the football clubs use it as a barometer, as a measuring stick.
15:48 It's not a perfect system and a perfect metric.
15:51 Every metric has its flaws.
15:53 But what it does give is a good indication of your performance in terms of what you should have achieved in that football game,
16:00 given the chances. Phil Smith, our colleague who's off today, so sadly can't join us with this podcast,
16:07 but he put a tweet out against Plymouth.
16:11 We had more XG sort of between the boxes, as you mentioned.
16:14 We should have outscored them and should have conceded less than we did.
16:19 It was the same story at Swansea. Leicester did outscore us on the XG.
16:23 So that result was probably about right. And then Stoke should have been 2-0 up at the XG to Sunderland.
16:29 So that is an indication really that Sunderland are on the right track, but it is frustrating for fans.
16:37 Do you think, Joe, that maybe Tony Mowbray has to mix it up a little bit now?
16:42 I'm not really thinking in terms of the striking situation, because I think Rooson's probably going to need a good run of games.
16:50 I think the next game would be his fourth start in a row, is that right? Or his third start?
16:55 I think he's started four in a row.
16:57 Is it four in a row? Right, OK. So he's still very early on in his Sunderland career.
17:00 However, that midfield maybe needs a little bit of freshening up.
17:04 The issue with that is there isn't a great deal in terms of seven midfielders, Neal and Ekwer,
17:08 but maybe Bellingham could come out and Adele Ashoosh could come in.
17:12 There's Bradley Dagg, Alex Pritchard.
17:15 And I guess that highlights, Joe, that in terms of a pure seven midfielders, like a number eight, like Dan Neal or Pierre Ekwer,
17:22 there isn't a great deal behind that. But Sunderland do have some personnel to sort of tinker with things.
17:28 I would expect Mugret to perhaps do something like that soon in the next couple of games.
17:33 Yeah, there's a couple of changes I think he could make.
17:36 As you mentioned there in central midfield, as we've mentioned before, Sunderland are quite light in that area,
17:41 with Neal and Ekwer kind of being the first choice.
17:43 But if one of them is unavailable or one of them can't play, there is I still feel a lack of depth there.
17:49 He could do, if he was very bold, do what he did in the second half against Plymouth on Saturday,
17:54 which was play with kind of Dan Neal as a number six and then ended up with kind of two number tens with Ashoosh playing as one of them.
18:02 And Bellingham was like another number 10. Obviously, at that stage, they were two nil down, so didn't have as much to lose.
18:08 Would he do that from the start, even if it's a home game against a Huddersfield side near the bottom of the table?
18:14 It would still be, I think, a bold move. And there are a few options that could come into that kind of number 10 position.
18:19 Ashoosh is the one that I think has looked bright in recent weeks and is kind of pushing for that start.
18:25 Dak has come off the bench in that position as well. Pritchard was an unused sub.
18:29 So in that kind of more advanced number 10 position, Mowbray does have a few more options.
18:35 Clarke and Roberts are obviously the first choice players kind of out wide.
18:40 And they're still big threats for Sunderland. Clarke obviously is probably the first name on the team sheet at the minute, isn't he?
18:45 And then it's kind of that striker position. Who does he go with?
18:50 Rootin, I thought, looked bright the Birmingham game before the international break.
18:54 But I thought on Saturday his struggle at Plymouth, and he was substituted at half time,
19:00 was just on the fringe of the game and wasn't really kind of linking up with his teammates.
19:05 As we said before, Clarke and Roberts were getting some balls in some good areas of the pitch out wide,
19:10 but didn't really have anyone to hit in the middle.
19:13 There was a moment where Bellingham did hit the post with a low shot and he was kind of breaking forward into the box.
19:18 But there was kind of a lack of movement up front, particularly in that first half.
19:22 So does he stick with Rootin, who, as you said, has now started Sunderland's last four games?
19:27 Or does he bring in a Maienda who has, I think, in his last two appearances off the bench, he has looked exciting.
19:33 He looks like a player that can create chances for himself as well.
19:36 I think back to that Birmingham game when he came off the bench and got the ball on the edge of the box,
19:41 turned and forced a good save from John Ruddy, the Birmingham goalkeeper.
19:45 So he looks like a player that's very exciting, but is still very raw at just 18 years old.
19:50 And that's a big responsibility to put him at the top end of the pitch for the next few games
19:54 and say you're going to be our guy to score the goals, basically.
19:57 So there are a few options there. We think Berstow could be back as well.
20:01 Missed the Plymouth game with a knock, so he's another option.
20:04 Hamir was on the bench as well. So there are options there for Mowbray up front,
20:08 but obviously there are pros and cons to all of them.
20:11 And it'll be interesting to see what he does against Huddersfield.
20:14 I'd like to see Maienda in from the start because I think he has made an impact off the bench
20:17 when he's come on the last two games.
20:19 Yeah, I like Maienda, I really do. And I would like to see him start at some point.
20:23 But I don't know, it's just, for me, it's how long can you keep chopping and changing with the strikers?
20:29 I know we had Berstow start a flurry of games at the start of the season
20:33 and he's dropped out. Roosan's coming a bit later on.
20:36 And now we're talking with the idea of Maienda, I guess it underlines the point
20:39 that Tony Mowbray doesn't really have a championship-ready striker
20:42 and he's going to have to do some work to get one of them up to speed.
20:45 Hopefully it clicks. It's come so close to clicking annoyingly for a couple of these players.
20:50 You mentioned Maienda had that chance, the Birmingham game, Roosan's hit the post.
20:54 It's been close a couple of times, but yes, frustrating.
20:58 Sunderland's next two games, as you mentioned, Joe, Huddersfield and Millwall,
21:02 two teams that are sort of a little further down the championship than Sunderland.
21:06 Millwall at 18th with 20 points, Huddersfield at 21st with 16 points.
21:14 On paper, two winnable games, but they're also now two pretty big games, I think now, Joe.
21:19 Yeah, the Huddersfield game particularly, I think it's a game that people expect Sunderland to win.
21:24 Huddersfield have got quite a few injuries as well. I was just reading this morning
21:28 about nine players out injured or doubts.
21:31 So a depleted side near the bottom of the table.
21:35 Sunderland obviously playing at home where they've actually...
21:37 It's interesting this season, Sunderland's best results have come at home,
21:40 whereas last season they seemed to be away from home.
21:42 It seems to have flipped a bit more the last few games at the Stadium of Light.
21:47 They have kind of convincingly beat teams like Birmingham, Norwich.
21:51 Before that, there was the Middlesbrough game, but obviously that was the Dan Neil red card.
21:55 So that kind of changed things. Before that, they beat Watford comfortably at home.
21:59 So the home performances have been good this season.
22:01 Obviously on the road, they have had some struggles, which was one of their strengths last season.
22:06 But I think Sunderland will have more of the ball again, as they tend to often do,
22:11 particularly at the Stadium of Light.
22:14 Not sure how Huddersfield will set up, but I think they'll try and be difficult to break down,
22:19 and try and hit Sunderland on a counter-attack.
22:21 That's certainly what they did last season, which was a one-all draw, I seem to recall, in April.
22:26 That was actually the last game where a recognised striker scored for Sunderland
22:29 when Geldhart opened the scoring.
22:33 So yeah, in the Champions League it's a cleat, there's no easy games.
22:36 But if you're looking at games that Sunderland should be winning,
22:39 you'd be identifying a game against Huddersfield at home.
22:42 If Sunderland want to get in the playoffs, they're the sort of games that you've got to be looking to take three points from.
22:48 So yeah, it'll be interesting to see what Mo Rida does.
22:50 Will he go with the two centre-mids, as we said, with Neil and Ekouar?
22:54 Or will he play with two number eights?
22:55 Who's he going to play up front?
22:57 So there are a couple of selection dilemmas there ahead of the Sunderland game.
23:01 But I'm sure they'll be on the front foot.
23:03 But we'll have to beware of that probably counter-attacking threat that Huddersfield will pose.
23:07 Yes, Huddersfield haven't won in five, although they did get an equaliser against Southampton at the weekend.
23:13 So that's always interesting when Sunderland come into these types of fixtures.
23:17 George, just very quickly, will there be a preview Huddersfield Towns show or not?
23:23 Probably not for Huddersfield, but then going into the weekend, we'll try and get one for Millwall on Saturday.
23:29 Well, happy days. We've sort of previewed it a bit there, so that's good.
23:33 Yeah, thank you once again for listening to the Raw podcast.
23:37 You'll soon be able to find us on Shots TV on Freeview, so keep an eye out for that.
23:43 We're over on Spotify, iTunes, YouTube, all of the podcast places, Google, all of that good stuff.
23:50 And you can head over to the Sunderland Echo website for all of the build-up to Sunderland's next couple of games against Huddersfield Town and Millwall.
23:58 This has been the Raw podcast and thank you for listening.
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