Reaction as Sunderland thrash Sheffield Wednesday plus Jack Clarke and transfer latest
Reaction as Sunderland thrash Sheffield Wednesday plus Jack Clarke and transfer latest
Transcript
00:00Hello, welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:25My name is Jason Jones.
00:26I'm joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:30Lads, pleasure as always on a Monday morning.
00:33And those Monday mornings are made quite a lot easier
00:36when you see Sunland play like that on a Sunday afternoon.
00:38What a performance from the lads.
00:40A 4-0 win over Sheffield Wednesday, their first home game of the season.
00:44It's now six points from six in the championship, still to concede a goal.
00:48I mean, we're sort of at risk of running away with ourselves a little bit here, James,
00:51but how impressive was that performance yesterday?
00:56Yeah, really impressive.
00:57I was most surprised.
00:59I think when Alan Brown's name wasn't on the team sheet,
01:02I was a little bit concerned just because he brought so much stability and calmness
01:06and experience to the Cardiff game.
01:09And that's not necessarily a criticism of Chris Rigg,
01:12who obviously we all have a lot of confidence in,
01:14but you did just wonder whether that would be at the Sunland's detriment.
01:17And it actually turned out to be the other way around.
01:20Chris Rigg playing in that sort of second striker role in the number 10 position,
01:24Job moving a little bit further back, really helped Sunland.
01:27And I think me and Phil discussed on the On The Whistle video on YouTube after the game
01:31that that young, energetic midfielder of Neil, Job and Rigg
01:35really did a number on Sheffield Wednesdays.
01:37I think Roald probably got his tactics a little wrong in the first half as well.
01:42But yeah, Barry Bannon didn't really get a look in for that first 25 minutes,
01:45in which Sunland went 3-0 up.
01:47And just so many positives to take from the game,
01:50obviously my ender net and a couple as well.
01:51And in terms of Regis Lebrie, you couldn't ask really for a better two opening league games.
01:57He's won away.
01:58He's kept two clean sheets and he's won at home, scored six goals.
02:02There's a striker scoring.
02:03It's dreamland, really.
02:05I don't think anybody expected Sunland to be this good this early on.
02:11You know, there is mitigation in a sense that I think Cardiff had injuries
02:15and they look pretty poor.
02:17Sheffield Wednesday, we're not really sure really how good they are yet.
02:21So I think coming into Burnley on Saturday, obviously we'll talk about that a little bit later.
02:25But I think that's a huge test given how they've started the season.
02:28But hugely encouraged so far.
02:30And I think, you know, what's been the most pleasing aspect is that we can all see
02:35what Lebrie is trying to implement and that the players have bought into it, which is massive, really.
02:40So, yeah, it was a lot better than the last time he played Sheffield Wednesday at home at the Stadium of Life.
02:46I mean, that's one thing that you sort of touched upon last weekend, Phil,
02:50but this idea that we expected Lebrie to come in and implement a certain style of play
02:54maybe didn't quite execute that against Cardiff.
02:57But it certainly felt as if Sunland looked a lot more like the sort of Sunland
03:01that we're expecting to see under him going forward on Sunday.
03:05Yeah, definitely. And I think that was probably the biggest positive, really.
03:07I think that at the start of the season, obviously results are so important,
03:11especially when you've got a new head coach, because I think it can have such a big impact on the general mood, can't it?
03:16If you play well, but you're losing, then it can start to get away from you.
03:20But I think you want to see early on in the season that the performances are there
03:24that you think are going to deliver over a 46-game season.
03:27And I think that was why after the Cardiff game we were kind of positive,
03:31because you can't really criticise a team when they go away from home and keep a clean sheet and win the game.
03:35But we didn't really...
03:37There wasn't a huge difference from the Sunland that we saw towards the end of last season.
03:40They were just more effective.
03:42Whereas I thought yesterday it was...
03:44For me, it was the best performance since Tony Aubrey's departure.
03:48I know there was the win over Leeds at the Stadium of Light,
03:50and there were occasional moments where something produced a really good result.
03:54But I think in terms of actually dominating the opposition by winning the game,
03:57by being completely on the front foot,
04:00spells the game where it was the press and they just completely undid Sheffield Wednesday,
04:05spells where they knew to put their foot on the ball and slow it down and actually just control it that way.
04:10It wasn't as if they just played the same way for 90 minutes.
04:13I think it was really, really exciting.
04:15It's the first time, I think, in a long time that it's been a performance and a result.
04:21And it was the best football we've seen since Aubrey left for me by a country distance.
04:25So, yeah, really, really exciting and a really positive day.
04:29Obviously, the caveat being every other team now is going to watch that and go, yeah, let's not do that.
04:35So I don't think there's too many teams that are going to play out from the back
04:38and be as sort of aggressive as Sheffield Wednesday,
04:40where maybe there was a little bit of hubris from their opening day winning and how they set it up.
04:44So I think they're going to have to find different solutions in the weeks ahead
04:47because there's not going to be many games like that.
04:48But what a really, really cathartic day, actually,
04:52because it's been miserable, hasn't it, at the stadium all year.
04:56And I think everyone, it was just so nice to have a day
04:59where people could just really enjoy a performance to get the act.
05:03I mean, front to back, there were fantastic performances all over the pitch.
05:08We sort of touched on the midfield already, so we might as well start there.
05:11That midfield three, Dan Neil, Joe Bellingham, Chris Rigg, obviously coming in the side.
05:16Average age of just 19, which almost boggles the mind, really,
05:20when you see how well they performed yesterday.
05:22I mean, how impressed were you with that trio yesterday, James?
05:27Hugely impressed.
05:28As I mentioned, you know, I was slightly worried when Alan Brown dropped out,
05:32but it's mind-boggling, really, that Dan Neil is the senior figure in that midfield at 22 years old.
05:39Yes, he's got a lot of experience, but he's just come on so much this season.
05:44You could see it during pre-season.
05:45He's taken it to another level.
05:47His discipline, his awareness, his passing ability.
05:51He's a real, real top player.
05:52And I know we're all, you know, raving about Chris Rigg, and rightly so at 17.
05:57He's definitely a player, but Dan Neil's superb.
06:00Then you look at Joe Bellingham, again, the summer seems to have done him the world of good.
06:06He looked a bit tired at times and jaded last season, but he's got so much quality.
06:11I quite like him.
06:12We were saying, Jason, weren't we, during the game, that we quite like him a little bit further back.
06:16Obviously, he can play as the 10, but when he was playing alongside Dan Neil, he gives such athleticism,
06:22got pace, power, and he actually carries the ball as well up the field, which is good to see.
06:28He's such an impressive physical specimen that he glides over the pitch.
06:32And obviously, Chris Rigg, I mean, what more can we say about him?
06:35His mentality after, you know, playing a lot of pre-season, but then falling behind Alan Brown in the pecking order.
06:42You know, then he finds himself starting against Preston.
06:44He doesn't soak.
06:45He's still probably the best player on the pitch, despite Sunderland losing.
06:48Then he finds himself back in the team, in the league, and he, you know,
06:53he has the mentality to come on against Cardiff on the right-hand side of Sunderland's attack.
06:57And then he's back playing as a number 10 for the first time in a while against Sheffield Wednesday.
07:02So, it's so good to see.
07:05And strange in a way, really, because obviously Pierre Ecke was on the bench and he's not getting on at the moment or getting a game.
07:12And it's easy to see why, because that midfield trio is such quality.
07:16I think good news about Alan Brown as well, it only being a minor knock and hopefully he'll come back in.
07:21But yeah, it was delightful, really, that midfield.
07:25As a three, it was very well balanced and nice to have that little bit of competition.
07:30Obviously, I mentioned Ekwer and Brown, but they could come in at some point.
07:34Obviously, all eyes on the transfer market.
07:36But yeah, honestly, it was a joy to watch at times.
07:38I think, again, you do have to caveat that with maybe Sheffield Wednesday tactically didn't set up right for it and that allowed Sunderland the space.
07:46But there's so much talent there that if they continue to grow, get that cohesion, it's hugely exciting to be a Sunderland fan.
07:55And I guess the big question now, Phil, is does Alan Brown get back in this team?
08:00I mean, Chris Riggs, he's been a bit of a coward for himself, hasn't he?
08:04It's going to be hard for the new side if he just waltzes back into Reggie's side.
08:08Yeah, yeah.
08:10My instinct is, to be honest, if he's fit, he probably does, just because I think Burnley, it's such a different game, isn't it?
08:17And I think that's kind of, I asked Lebris after the game, you know, exactly that.
08:20Can you keep Rigg out of this side?
08:23He didn't really answer the question other than to say, you know, that midfield three had been brilliant in this game.
08:30But every game is different.
08:32And I think the important thing is to have different solutions, really, isn't it?
08:34And I think that Burnley, you know, when you look at what they've done in the first two games of the season, it's a little bit frightening, really.
08:42And I think we all wondered whether, you know, is Boz Scott part of the right choice?
08:46Is Vincent Kompany leaving?
08:48How big an impact is that going to have on them?
08:50And the answer seems to be very little because they've got that quality.
08:52So my instinct is that might be a good game for Alan Brown.
08:56I think maybe his experience, maybe that defensive now especially, is something that you'll actually need.
09:01But in some ways, it doesn't really matter too much because the point with Rigg is he's either going to start or he's the first sub that comes off.
09:08He's now in that position.
09:10You know, he's going to be the game changer if he doesn't start the game.
09:13And we also know with him, he can come off the right if that's, you know, where the game's going.
09:17He can play as a ten, he can play as a midfield.
09:20So my gut tells me that for Burnley, possibly Brown does come straight back in.
09:24But in some ways, I'm not sure how much it really matters.
09:28You know, Rigg is going to feature in the game.
09:30He is now, if he's not in the starting line-up, he is Simon's number one game changer.
09:33And I think it's an absolute credit to him that he's been able to do that.
09:36I mean, that little touch and pass for Meander's second goal to set Clarke away.
09:41You know, players, you know, with hundreds of games under their belt can't do that.
09:46You know, that's just God-given talent, really.
09:48And it's just really exciting to see where he's going to go from here.
09:51And yeah, it's nice to have that competition.
09:53As James said, you know, we haven't even really spoken about Eko yet.
09:56And, you know, he's got a real battle to get his way back in.
09:59Obviously, mainly because his match fitness is behind the others because he had his injury in pre-season.
10:03But you've got four central midfielders there who, at times, have all looked top-end championship level.
10:09So it's emerging as a position of real, real strength for Sunderland.
10:13And it's, yeah, it's going to be exciting to see the four of them kind of battle it out, really.
10:18The man who opened the scoring yesterday, Dennis Serkin,
10:23obviously got an assist in the opening game as well against Cardiff.
10:26I mean, how good is it to see him back and fit and firing?
10:30And how much of a difference does he make to the Sunderland team, James?
10:34He makes a big difference.
10:35He's a real quality player.
10:38And Nick Barnes from the BBC put the question to him after the game,
10:43you know, have you done anything differently in pre-season?
10:46You appear to have bulked up physically and he seems to have strengthened a little bit as well.
10:50His physical shape has changed.
10:53And he just sort of brushed it off and smiled with a sort of a little knowing nod.
10:58But I think that's testament, really, to how hard he's worked to get back.
11:01I think he really does sort of live and breathe football.
11:04I think Sunderland does mean a great deal to him.
11:07He's been so lucky with injuries as well.
11:09And last season, I think he only played eight times in the championship, which is a massive loss.
11:13I mean, this is a player that when we signed him, there were rumours that he would go back to Tottenham
11:18because they had a buyback clause, which has since expired.
11:21That's how good a form he was in under Tony Mowbray at Sunderland at one point.
11:26Obviously, there was those two goals towards the back end of that playoff season at Preston.
11:31Was it Preston or West Brom?
11:33Preston, wasn't it?
11:34West Brom.
11:35West Brom, yeah.
11:36He scored at Cardiff as well.
11:38So, he's really got a lot of quality, a lot of talent.
11:41It was such a shame he was out for so long.
11:43But Sunderland's flanks at the moment with Serkin and Clarke on the left and Hulme and Roberts on the right,
11:51it adds real balance.
11:52Two top-quality full-backs with two top-quality wingers.
11:55It makes a great deal of difference.
11:58And what I like about both Serkin and Hulme is they're both really combative.
12:01They get stuck in.
12:01They're both good going forward.
12:03And they're both so defensively sound.
12:06He's a huge asset.
12:07I really hope he can stay fit for the full season.
12:10Because I honestly think, to be honest, if he does stay fit for a long period of time,
12:16he's in that sort of, although he's a little bit older, sort of dual bracket of potentially going quite high up into the Premier League.
12:25I think clubs would certainly be looking at him.
12:27There's a couple in Sunderland's squad like that, to be fair.
12:29But I think the main thing is that he's back-fitting firing and a huge asset to Sunderland.
12:34He's a great player.
12:38And a word on Luke O'Neill as well, Phil.
12:40It's now two and two for him.
12:42Joined top scorer in the Championship, isn't it?
12:44I don't think any of us would have predicted that ten weeks into the season.
12:47I mean, how good has he been?
12:49And I guess the other question is as well, given how well him and Adjie Elissa are playing together,
12:54who is the starting centre-back partnership for Sunderland once Dan Ballard is fit?
12:59Yeah, I think that, yeah, I think O'Neill is probably, I was kind of amazed that people were still talking about O'Neill's position
13:07in centre-half coming into the season, really.
13:09I just think that last season he was excellent.
13:11Sunderland's defensive record was pretty good.
13:13He's clearly the best option in possession out of any of Sunderland's options, really.
13:19And I think those first two games of the season, if that debate come back round, it's kind of over now, isn't it?
13:25Because I just don't think anyone can realistically pick a team without 0-9 in it.
13:30And I think, yeah, he does make the odd mistake within games, but like, it's the Championship.
13:35If he didn't make any mistakes ever and he scored goals and he just consistently was raking 50-yard passes,
13:41then, you know, he'd be playing for Man City.
13:43So, like, you know, I think you've got to bear this in mind when you judge his performances.
13:48I don't think there's any way 0-9 comes out of this team other than through injury and suspension, to be honest.
13:53And the Elissa one's really interesting because I think realistically Ballard's going to play when he's fit.
13:59I think that's just the way it's going to go because Ballard is at such a high level.
14:03But I think Elissa's been really, really, really good.
14:06And he was probably one of the under-the-radar performers yesterday, actually.
14:10And I like how simply he keeps things.
14:12And I mean that as a compliment, not criticism.
14:14Like, he doesn't mess about.
14:16He just does his job with a little fuss.
14:18But he was really good yesterday.
14:19And that's going to be a really interesting dynamic because although I suspect Ballard will come back in,
14:24the nice thing for Sunderland is they really don't have to rush him.
14:26They don't have to be taking any risks with him.
14:28There's two games now before the international break.
14:31I doubt he's going to be available for Burnley.
14:33Possibly he could be involved in sports, but Sunderland don't have to rush him.
14:37So they can really give him that international break to get fully up to speed.
14:41Because don't forget with Ballard, he only played 45 minutes, didn't he?
14:44So he's actually not really had any match fitness whatsoever.
14:47So it's going to be really valuable for Sunderland to be able to actually give him a bit more time to get fully up to speed.
14:52And then, you know, Elissa is the player in possession at the moment.
14:56The nice thing is that at the moment, the full backs are in a position of real strength.
15:00But we know that the depth is a huge concern.
15:03If either Hume or Serkis get injured right now, it would be a big problem.
15:08Ballard being fit means you've got Elissa as an option at left back as well.
15:11And, you know, with both his and Serkis' injury record, that's really valuable.
15:16But I'm sort of pleased you asked that because for me, Elissa was one of the under-the-radar performers yesterday.
15:22I thought he was really, really, really strong.
15:24And so that was the foundation, really, for all the attacking stuff that Sunderland were able to do.
15:29A man who certainly wasn't under-the-radar, James, Elissa Maienda, finally opened his Sunderland account.
15:36Two goals for the 19-year-old.
15:37Really lovely to see as well the reception he got coming off in the second half.
15:41Standing ovation, obviously it helped that he was coming off at the same time as Chris Rigo,
15:45who I think the whole crowd was rabid for by the time he came off the pitch.
15:49But really impressive performance from Maienda yesterday.
15:52And not just the goals, but the work rate as well.
15:55No, absolutely superb.
15:56To bounce back from that Cardiff miss, which a lot of people have pointed out was probably a harder chance than it looked on telly.
16:03But one, you would be hoping that he was going to score.
16:06And I think he was hoping he was going to score as well, to bounce back from that.
16:09I think the faith from Lebris to give him the nod, it made me think back to Mick Beale's time at Sunderland,
16:16actually, where it was sort of, he couldn't really decide which striker he wanted.
16:20Could he? Kept dropping one from game to game and experimenting.
16:23But it looks like Maienda's shirt to lose at the moment.
16:25And I think that vote of confidence has helped him massively.
16:28The finish for the first goal off his left foot.
16:30It's not easy that, you know, there's two defenders coming in.
16:33The goalkeeper's perhaps a little bit of no man's land,
16:35but to lift it over him, left foot curled into the corner in front of 40,000 fans,
16:40as a 19-year-old, an under-pressure 19-year-old who's missed his last big chance,
16:44who hasn't scored for the club despite being there over a year, it's massive.
16:49That goal is huge and so well taken.
16:52Lovely to see him get his flowers from the roker end as well.
16:56You know, Chris Rigg sort of making sure that he got that adulation.
16:59Fantastic. Everybody was so pleased for him in Sunderland's squad.
17:03Stuff like that you really like to see.
17:06And then the second goal, you know, the touchdown and the pass from Chris Rigg
17:11is ludicrous, really, to split the full-back and the centre-back.
17:16Clarke does what Clarke does. Fantastic down the wing.
17:18But for Eliza Maienda to have the wherewithal,
17:21the presence of mind to be attacking that back post,
17:24it's an easy finish in the end because he does the hard work initially.
17:28And as Phil mentioned on the Whistle video we did,
17:31we haven't really seen that for a long time at Sunderland,
17:34you know, a striker arriving in those positions.
17:36And it was a big frustration of mine last season,
17:38the amount of times Patrick Roberts got to the byline and sort of cut one across
17:42and there was nobody really there.
17:44So to see a striker do that in Sunderland colours was fantastic.
17:48And, you know, maybe we've all been perhaps a little guilty of forgetting
17:52just how young Maienda is and has been during his early Sunderland career so far.
17:58And all of a sudden, perceptions, everything,
18:01he scored two at the Stadium of Light in a league game
18:03and now everybody believes he's a real good prospect again.
18:06And he is, and I think he probably always was.
18:08But, you know, goals are really hard to score,
18:11especially in a first-team environment when you haven't scored one before
18:15for your current club.
18:15So hopefully that's now, you know, a massive monkey off the back
18:19and he can go in and start chipping in.
18:22I do think, though, that although he has scored,
18:25and that's a huge positive,
18:27that I think Sunderland still need to address that striker situation.
18:30I think what's a really interesting point is
18:33whether they get a senior striker in the door now,
18:38whether they just go for one and that leaves Maienda as sort of the understudy.
18:42You'd probably be confident in him doing that role now he's netted a couple.
18:45Then whether they bring somebody in on loan
18:48who could potentially block Maienda's pathway a little bit.
18:51So you would expect it's probably down to just the one now,
18:53but hugely impressive and pleasing performance
18:56and just really nice to see a striker score at Sunderland.
19:00It was almost a little bit surreal, wasn't it?
19:02Especially when that second one went in,
19:03it felt like I was sort of pinching myself.
19:05A Sunderland striker actually scored two goals in a game feels a bit weird.
19:08But I guess that's the thing, isn't it, Phil?
19:09Like, even if Maienda's not going to be starting every week
19:13and obviously the hope remains that Sunderland will sign an experienced centre forward,
19:16and I'm sure we will talk about that in due course,
19:19the hope will be that he can at least be an effective contributor,
19:22whether it's as an impact substitute or potentially as a rotation option.
19:28Yeah, I think so.
19:29And I think, to be fair, like, obviously the goals,
19:32and it's obviously been a big talking point and stuff,
19:34but I think anybody who watched follow Sunderland through pre-season
19:38and even the card game to a large extent
19:40would say that he had taken a huge step forward.
19:43Like, I think that was, you know,
19:44and yes, we were all saying Sunderland needed to sign an experienced striker,
19:47but I don't think anyone was talking as if Maienda couldn't have a role to play.
19:52I think it was obvious pretty much from day one of pre-season
19:54that he'd taken a big step forward
19:56and that something was really clicking with Lebris
19:58in terms of the conversations they were having on his role on the team.
20:01I think the other aspect of it as well is it's also about
20:04his teammates understanding his game as well, right?
20:07So we've now had two league games this season.
20:10One game at Cardiff when there was a lot of long balls played into him
20:13up against Callum Chambers and Gutas,
20:15and it's like, yeah, that's not his game.
20:18You know, he's not going to compete at this stage of his career,
20:21like physical battles with centre-half, that's not his game.
20:24But what you can actually see yesterday is that he's quick,
20:26he makes decent runs, he's got a decent touch, he can link up well.
20:30So I think it's like a bit of a process for both, really.
20:32It's about Maienda making the improvements that he needs to move forward,
20:36but it's also about his teammates understanding him as well.
20:37And I think you're beginning to see that,
20:39they understand how to use him,
20:41and they're sort of developing that understanding.
20:43So I'm really enthusiastic about Maienda.
20:45I don't think anyone was arguing before the game
20:47or would argue after that he's the answer
20:49and he's going to play 46 games.
20:51I mean, Chris Riggs is not going to play 46 games.
20:53You know, at the age these guys are at,
20:54we've seen that they're just not going to do it.
20:56So they need experience to establish support.
20:59But for me, there's no doubt that Maienda's got a role to play.
21:01And, you know, we should be enthusiastic about a 19-year-old
21:04who's shown striker, who's shown all the attributes that he's shown.
21:08Probably the more interesting one really is when the other striker comes in,
21:10is where it leaves Roosen.
21:12Because Lebris has made fairly clear that he sees him at the moment
21:15as an impact substitute and that Maienda's ahead of him in terms of start.
21:19So if, you know, you mentioned there about what impact does it have on Maienda,
21:22I'm not sure it'll have too much an impact on Maienda.
21:24For me, it's like Roosen's the interesting one.
21:27If he then becomes third choice striker, you know, he's 25 now.
21:31He's been at the club for a year.
21:32How does he see that situation developing?
21:35So that's kind of the interesting one for me.
21:37I think we've seen such huge strides from Maienda in such a short space of time
21:41that I'm not even thinking about, you know, his role in the squad moving forward.
21:46So, yeah, for me, the dynamic could be an interesting one.
21:48If, for example, Alexandre Mendy is the one who comes in,
21:52I feel like that's going to be really interesting to see what impact that has on Roosen.
21:57I suppose that's part of the issue Roosen's facing as well, isn't it?
22:00He's already feeding on sort of drips and drives.
22:02He's not getting the minutes.
22:04And we've seen the sort of the help that that gives a player.
22:08And, you know, Maienda didn't score against Cardiff, but the faith was shown in him.
22:11He got another 70-odd minutes or whatever it was against Wednesday.
22:16And he's repaid that faith with two goals.
22:18You know, Roosen isn't being afforded that luxury.
22:21I know he started against Preston in the cup,
22:22but it wasn't exactly the game to go out and establish yourself in a sense.
22:27I mean, like Phil says, it's only going to get harder for him from here on out
22:31if Sunderland bring in another striker, isn't it, James?
22:34Yeah, I do feel for him because, again, I said in the podcast before,
22:37I'm not really sure he's an out-and-out number nine,
22:40especially not one that can play by himself up there.
22:43I think he's more of a wide forward or a left winger.
22:46And again, it could be very difficult for him to get in that position as well as it stands.
22:50I mean, you know, say if Clarke was to go tomorrow,
22:54you would expect maybe Sunderland to strengthen that position.
22:58There's also Romain Mundel who could play there.
23:01You'd expect Roosen to be behind him even in that spot.
23:04So, yeah, Phil's right to point out that one because it's a shame
23:09because he has shown flashes of quality during his Sunderland career,
23:12but it never really seems to have caught fire.
23:16Obviously, he had some issues when he came over from Ukraine
23:19in terms of his family settling and stuff, and that did set him back a little bit.
23:22He has had injury issues as well at times.
23:26He's then gone from Tony Mowbray to Mike Dodds to McBeal to Mike Dodds,
23:32now to Rajeev Slippery.
23:33So, it's been a bit of a whirlwind for him, I would suspect, in a new country,
23:37and it does take time for players to settle.
23:39He has now had a year, so you would expect to be seeing something a little bit more.
23:45But, yeah, as you mentioned, Jason, it's tough starting against Preston,
23:48coming in from the cold with an unfamiliar team, really hard to judge.
23:52But you are struggling to see where he gets in.
23:55If Sunderland do sign that experienced striker, then he does fall another rung
23:59down the pecking order, which would be a shame.
24:01I do think he has something, but sometimes it just doesn't work out.
24:05However, it's a long season, a lot of stuff can happen in the Championship,
24:09and you never know.
24:10There might be a call for him at some point through injuries or suspension,
24:14and you never know.
24:14It only takes one chance to really go and get it.
24:17So, hopefully, that can happen for him at some point this season.
24:22We might as well talk about that one for an experienced striker.
24:25Obviously, Alexandre Mendy is still the name that is being linked consistently.
24:30I mean, has there been any notable progress on that, do you think, Phil?
24:33Is Sunderland any closer to getting their man through the door?
24:38I mean, I think the fact that he's still not involved in any way with his team,
24:42was left out of the squad over the weekend, still training on his own.
24:44The player could not have been any clearer that Sunderland is still the move that he wants.
24:49I think we can say with a fair degree of certainty that's probably still the deal
24:52that Sunderland would like to do and are working on.
24:55An interesting report from France that Ken are looking at, and by Niang,
25:00obviously formerly of AC Milan, who's a free agent.
25:02Now, obviously, that could have an impact if he signs,
25:05and it might make it more palatable for them to sell Mendy.
25:07It certainly suggests they're planning for a future without him.
25:10It's still one that I think there's a good chance that can happen,
25:13because ultimately, it will be in his club's interest to sell him
25:16if he doesn't want to be there.
25:17Sunderland still wants to sign him, and he still wants the move.
25:20So, if you were to ask me, do I think it will happen?
25:22I'd say yes, I think it probably will do at some point before the end of the window.
25:26There seems to be a bit of Brinkmanship going on, which makes me nervous, to be honest.
25:29I never like it when it's like, we'll happily let it run until the end of the window.
25:34But I do think that's one that's got a strong chance of happening at some point.
25:38But you just never know, because there clearly is a fairly significant difference in valuation at the moment.
25:42But, you know, I think that, you know,
25:47Labrice last week was fairly bullish about something happening.
25:51You know, he did say that we're not close to anything,
25:54there's nothing about to happen, but I'm pretty confident we'll see something happening.
25:58He did kind of hint there might be some movement this week.
26:00So, I do think that might be one to watch over the next few days,
26:03because, you know, he's normally very, very guarded,
26:05but he did kind of suggest that he felt that something was coming to the boil, maybe a little bit.
26:10So, let's wait and see on that one.
26:11But I think all the noises suggest that that's still the one that everyone's looking at.
26:16So, fingers crossed.
26:18But yes, I am starting to get a little bit like, OK, lads, let's do this now.
26:23There's only a couple of weeks to go.
26:26But yeah, my gut still tells me that one's got a good chance.
26:29But let's see.
26:31I do think that while nobody's saying that the need for an experienced striker is just as much as it was on Saturday,
26:38you know, Mienda's goals don't change that.
26:40But I think it's a massive moment in the wider picture in terms of having a group of strikers,
26:45having someone who you know you can trust and who's full of confidence.
26:48I do think that's such a massive boost, as much for the squad depth, as much as anything else.
26:54I think that's the wider point with Sunderland, isn't it?
26:56Is that, you know, the anger last season was in part down to poor performances,
27:02but also in part down to the fact that it was perhaps a little bit avoidable,
27:06because we all know that Sunderland have some fine, fine players, some really talented players.
27:11And they've shown that over these two games.
27:13They just needed a little bit of help.
27:14And there's perhaps a little bit of frustration that Sunderland haven't been able to push on in the transfer market
27:20when, you know, they had a mad Roberts and Clarke lighting it up.
27:23I know they did try with the Joe Gelhardt loan.
27:26And then you had, you know, last season in the Championship again in January,
27:31they couldn't get Kiefer Moore over the line.
27:33And the squad depth does lack a little bit in places.
27:35I think that's, from the conversations I have with Sunderland fans,
27:38that's the most frustrating thing is that there's clearly a really good XI.
27:41There's probably even, you know, five or six behind the XI that could come in on an individual basis
27:47into a first team sort of line up and do well.
27:49But it's a little bit of strength and depth at full back,
27:53a little bit of strength and depth up front,
27:56because you do need a squad to get promoted out of the Championship,
27:58which is the stated aim of the manager and the board.
28:02So, yeah, it's interesting times.
28:05I think that the last, what was it, like 11 days or something of the transfer window
28:10will be fascinating because it would be lovely if that experienced striker
28:14could come in in the next couple of days,
28:15and then you can really assess what's going to happen with outgoings.
28:19We know it's not that simple.
28:20And obviously, there's a huge question mark over Jack Clarke.
28:24You don't want that to go late in the window.
28:25So there's a lot at stake, isn't there?
28:27Because, you know, we could see quite a bit of interest
28:33in some of Sunderland's players, given their start of the season.
28:37I mean, you mentioned Jack Clarke there.
28:38We might as well talk about him,
28:40because obviously another really eye-catching display against Wednesday.
28:43Didn't score, but he got an assist for himself
28:46and just looked like an absolute nightmare down that left-hand flank,
28:48like he does on a weekly basis, like we're so used to seeing at this point.
28:52Flurry of reports around his future over the weekend.
28:56Leeds United being linked with a potential homecoming.
29:00Talk about, you know, contract negotiations with Sunderland,
29:03maybe not quite lining up, you know,
29:06the club wanting one thing and the player maybe wanting a little bit more.
29:09I mean, where do you think we stand with the Jack Clarke situation right now, Phil?
29:14I'm not convinced anything's actually changed, really, to be honest,
29:19in terms of, like, Sunderland would love to sign Jack Clarke to a new contract,
29:24but there hasn't been a lot of talks, really, so far this year,
29:27just because I don't think anybody's really seen the value in it
29:31because there was such a big gap.
29:34Arsene are now looking to have another go because there's some positivity,
29:38because, you know, they think it's worth trying, potentially.
29:41Do I see that gap being bridged?
29:43I think it's unlikely, but of course, you never know.
29:46In terms of the summer transfer stuff,
29:50the thing that, you know, and James will be able to speak to this as well,
29:53the thing that's been said all summer, really, behind the scenes
29:55when you speak to people in football is that Sunderland, rightly,
29:58have put a huge valuation on Clarke because he's still got two years left
30:01on his contract and he's absolutely central to the team.
30:04That valuation has so far put off Premier League clubs.
30:09I think that's fair to say.
30:10There's teams who like Clarke but aren't willing to go to that level
30:14of probably somewhere around 25 million.
30:17The situation has always been, is one of those clubs going to,
30:20panic's not quite the right word,
30:21but as they get to the end of the window, is someone going to decide,
30:24you know what, we actually need to go and push the button?
30:26That's always really been the case this summer and it's still the case.
30:30The only thing that's kind of changed, I guess, is the Leeds thing.
30:34So, you know, Leeds would not have been in the race for Jack Clarke
30:38at the start of the summer.
30:39They sold Archie Gray for a lot of money, but they did that
30:42because they needed that sale for the profit and sustainability rules.
30:46What then happened is they brought in 20-odd million for Somerville
30:49and then I think quite unexpectedly, they're bringing in 40 million
30:53for Reuter from Brighton.
30:54So now suddenly they do actually have a fairly significant amount
30:57of money that they can invest.
30:59Would they be willing to spend such a huge sum on Clarke?
31:02I'm not so sure.
31:03Sunderland would be very reluctant to sell to a divisional rival,
31:06so it would have to be a big bid.
31:08And certainly the noises from the Leeds ender that,
31:10while they're obviously looking at Clarke because he's such an obvious
31:13replacement for Somerville, because they're so similar
31:15and his championship record's so good,
31:18I think at the moment they feel they're down the pecking order
31:21because there are Premier League clubs interested.
31:23So I know it's a bit of a non-update really,
31:25but I genuinely don't think anything's changed.
31:27There are a lot of clubs that like Clarke and we're all still waiting to see
31:31if they're willing to go to the high valuation that Sunderland put on him.
31:34If they do that, then there's a very good chance it'll happen.
31:38But as of yet, we just haven't had the indication that there is a team
31:41who's willing to do it.
31:43Because Sunderland quite rightly have made clear that there's a chance he goes,
31:47but it's going to cost an awful lot of money.
31:49And that's unchanged really.
31:53I suppose the question that a lot of fans are asking as well, James,
31:56you know, it does feel as if Jack Clarke is a Premier League quality player.
32:00I think we're all in agreement there.
32:01And if a Premier League club were to come in, spend that money,
32:05take him up with them, then, you know, that's kind of one thing.
32:08But for him to move to another championship club,
32:11I mean, only the player himself will know, I guess,
32:14but that doesn't seem as enticing, does it?
32:18No, I'll stick my neck out on the line a little bit here,
32:22but I just don't see that Leeds move happening.
32:25I may be proved wrong and this might get clipped up
32:27and I might look like an idiot, but I just...
32:31Because of the Premier League interest on the table,
32:33the player will be aware of sort of Premier League money.
32:37Would Leeds pay more than perhaps Sunderland are offering?
32:40Possibly, would it be as much as a Premier League club
32:44could offer? Probably not.
32:46Although they do have some cash in the bank.
32:48Does he want to go back to Leeds?
32:50I honestly don't know.
32:53I think for me, if Jack Clarke's moving, it's to step up.
32:57I'm not convinced he's going somewhere else in the championship,
33:00but we could be wrong.
33:02As Phil mentioned, Sunderland would be, you know,
33:06uneasy selling to a divisional rival,
33:08potentially one they would like to compete with as well over the season.
33:12I think, you know, for all the Stryker situation
33:17and that Alexandre Mendy situation is a little bit frustrating
33:20in a sense that clearly there's a gap in valuation
33:23and Sunderland perhaps aren't willing to go all the way to
33:27Cairns' valuation and was possibly the same with Kiefer Moorer in January.
33:34But on the flip side of that, when it's a player that you don't want to sell
33:38and Sunderland are playing hardball, it's quite admirable in a way, really,
33:41that they've got that valuation.
33:42There's a sell-on fee due to Tottenham as well.
33:45They know how much that player is worth to Sunderland.
33:48He's hugely important and they're prepared to play hardball over it.
33:50And I think that's sort of the flip side to this policy at Sunderland
33:54that actually does work quite well.
33:58But as we've mentioned several times on the podcast,
34:00you just don't want to get to a situation where he leaves right at the end of the window
34:04with, you know, an hour or a day or 15 minutes, whatever it is.
34:10That situation just leaves Sunderland with very little time to get anything done.
34:15And to replace a player of Clarke's quality is going to be very difficult.
34:18You'd probably have to sort of recreate him in the aggregate, if that makes sense.
34:21And are you going to be able to do that amount of business in that short space of time?
34:26Are you going to do that before and prepare for Clarke going?
34:29And then even if Clarke doesn't go, still have those players there sitting around for six months.
34:33It's very, very difficult and I don't envy it.
34:35But I think at the moment, you just have to praise his professionalism as well,
34:40because there's been a lot of talk about him for a long time and he continues to deliver,
34:44continues to perform, clearly has a good relationship with the Sunderland fans.
34:49And I think we've seen with Chris Rigg, although Clarke doesn't appear to be anywhere near signing a new contract,
34:55is that actually Sunderland fans make a big, big difference to players' thoughts.
35:00And I think Sunderland fans' opinions really matter.
35:03And Clarke clearly loves it here.
35:04The love is reciprocated, I think.
35:05So I think he's probably quite relaxed about it, to be honest.
35:09I don't think he's banging down the door, demanding a move.
35:12He's clearly playing well and has done for a long time.
35:16And Sunderland's a great stage to do it on.
35:19I do just wonder, though, although Sunderland are playing hardball and rightly so,
35:24whether now is the sweet spot to Stellum if you want to get as much money as possible,
35:28because obviously if it drags into January or the next season,
35:33his valuation is going to go down a little bit just because of the time ticking on his contract.
35:37So I do wonder if he was to go and you knew you were going to lose him at some point in the next 18 months or so,
35:43whether now would be the best time to do it.
35:45But whether that leaves Sunderland enough time to get replacements in,
35:49whether they think that's worth it, is a different matter.
35:51So it's hugely complex and complicated.
35:53But I think that should be reiterated, just how good he's been under this cloud for quite some time.
35:59It's really impressive stuff and a testament to his professionalism.
36:03Yeah, absolutely.
36:04Absolutely.
36:05And obviously, we spoke a lot about the striker situation.
36:08You know, the time recording is there's 11 days left in the transfer window.
36:11I mean, are there any other areas of the squad, Phil, that I mean, first of all,
36:15you believe Sunderland need to strengthen and I guess secondly,
36:18that you anticipate them strengthening over the coming week and a half?
36:21Yeah, I think it does depend massively on outgoings, to be honest.
36:25I think that, you know, the Clarke one's the obvious one whereby at the moment,
36:28I think you'd be pretty happy with the options in the wide areas.
36:31But if Clarke goes, as James said, you're not going to replace him directly.
36:34But I think you would probably need to think about strengthening those positions, I think.
36:39Although I think it's pretty obvious now that we've seen a real push to get Minutes from Mundell.
36:43I think they obviously now see him as a big part of,
36:46not the entire solution if Clarke goes, but a big part of it.
36:49For me, I do think that full-back, I would like to see some cover come in there.
36:55Because I think at the moment with Pembele clearly not in the thoughts,
36:58you know, I do think that that's a position that I would like to see some cover.
37:03Because an injury or a suspension at Trehearne would
37:05significantly upset the balance of the side, I think.
37:08We asked Le Brice about that at his press conference last Friday and he said,
37:10well, you know, we've got options.
37:12We could easily play with a back three and someone could fill in at wing-back.
37:16But you wouldn't want that as a long-term solution, would you?
37:18So, I just wonder if that's something that will be sort of on their radar.
37:22Beyond that, I think it's massively dependent on outgoings.
37:24I think if Ballard's fit soon, then I think centre-half looks okay,
37:28given how well Elisa is playing.
37:29Centre-half midfield, as we've talked about, if Ecuador stays, looks pretty strong.
37:34But there's a few different factors, isn't there?
37:36You know, there's the Clarke outgoings.
37:37There were some noises about Aushish, weren't there?
37:39And, you know, if Aushish was to go, which I'm not saying will happen,
37:42there's been nothing concrete yet.
37:43But, you know, that's an area where suddenly you go,
37:45you're a little bit light behind Job.
37:47So, I think, to be honest, the core of the squad's in place,
37:50is my view on it, without, obviously, the experienced striker,
37:53which is the big red-flash-and-light priority.
37:55I'd definitely say full-back is an area that needs addressing
37:58before the end of the window, in my opinion.
38:00Beyond that, I think it's largely dependent on outgoings, really.
38:05James, would you echo that?
38:09Yeah, definitely.
38:11You know, obviously, full-backs are a concern.
38:13We mentioned Serkan earlier.
38:15His injury record has been poor.
38:17Unfortunately, you could throw Alesi into that category as well,
38:21although he's fit and firing now.
38:22He's had issues.
38:24So, perhaps a little bit of cover there.
38:26It's such a shame, you know, because Niall Huggins is such a brilliant option
38:29and showed as such last season.
38:32But he's going to be out, Phil, what was it?
38:33Until the new year, isn't it?
38:35Was it Mick Bale said until the new year?
38:37So, he's not even an option on the table.
38:40Yeah, and then it'll take him a while.
38:44Yeah, and then it'll take him a while to get back up to speed.
38:46So, that's a real shame.
38:47So, a little bit of cover there.
38:50And I think Sunderland's squad generally looks fairly decent.
38:54It just needs a few other quality options.
38:57And yeah, as I say, maybe a sort of understudy specialist left back.
39:01There's a couple of outgoings.
39:03You'd think Joe Anderson probably on his way at some point,
39:06perhaps a loan for Zach Johnson, maybe, although he was on the bench.
39:13So, as we've mentioned on the podcast previously,
39:17part of what Sunderland do in terms of income,
39:20it may depend on whether they do find loans
39:22or permanent solutions for these fringe players as well.
39:28Lovely stuff.
39:29I think that's probably just about all we've got time for.
39:32The Raw will be back next Monday.
39:35After that huge test against Burnley,
39:37I mean, it remains to be seen how Sunderland get through that one.
39:40But before that, keep up to date with all the latest Sunderland news on the Echo.
39:45Thank you for listening.
39:46Thank you for James and Phil for joining me.
39:48And we will see you all next week.