The Sunderland Echo's Joe Nicholson and Phil Smith assess Sunderland's squad ahead of the 2024/25 season.
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00:00We're going to be looking at Sunderland's current squad.
00:03What happens with Clarke is going to have a huge knock-on effect
00:05because I don't think at the moment we've seen enough from the other players
00:08to suggest that they're ready to step up and take some of that burden.
00:11What do you think about some of the other players that I mentioned before?
00:31Jay Matete, Elliot Embleton, both coming back obviously from quite well.
00:36They've had a lot of bad luck with injuries, both of them, haven't they?
00:39I think Embleton's got a year left on his contract.
00:41Matete, I think he's got two years left on his contract.
00:44Is it just a case of we'll see how they go in pre-season
00:47and then potentially loan them out again for six months?
00:50Or where do you kind of see those two and their situations?
00:54I think that Matete is, again, another player who for me is not a holder midfielder.
01:03I think from what we've seen of him, he's best when he can get in the opposition's faces.
01:07He can press high up the pitch. He's a really good dribbler.
01:10He's really good at sort of twisting away from players and carrying the ball 20, 30 yards,
01:14getting into the box, maybe winning you a free kick in a dangerous area.
01:18I don't see him as the answer to that holder midfield player.
01:21That to me means he's got fairly significant competition with Neil,
01:24Ekwer, maybe anybody else who comes in.
01:27And so I think he's got the talent,
01:29but we just don't know what level of fitness he's going to be at.
01:32Hamilton, for me, is a huge asset to any squad
01:36because he can play in five or six different positions
01:38and you know he can do a good job in it.
01:39And he's also got a goal in him.
01:41You know, and especially from what we saw last season,
01:43it's something that any player who you feel has definitely got a goal in them
01:46and can get in the box and get decent areas is going to be hugely valuable.
01:50At the moment, because they've played so little football,
01:52it's hard to see them being sort of first team, strong, starting XI contenders.
01:58And so at that point, you're sitting here now thinking,
02:01yeah, there's got to be a possibility of a loan,
02:03you know, with a view to seeing what the situation is in January,
02:05or even a permanent exit.
02:06I don't think that could be ruled out in either scenario.
02:08However, there's loads of players, and we're going to go on,
02:11especially in the attacking midfield and wide players last season,
02:14who there is huge uncertainty over.
02:16They've shown flashes of talent, but haven't quite delivered on it yet.
02:20And so I absolutely think, you know,
02:23there's a possibility for either of those players,
02:24if they're fully fit, that they can force their way in pre-season.
02:28Albeit right now, you know, I think there's big question marks
02:32over where they're going to be at with their fitness
02:33after so long away from football.
02:35The other thing with Matete is obviously the rigged conundrum, isn't it?
02:38Because if I'm right in saying that, I don't really see Matete as a holding midfielder.
02:42If someone had also seen it that way, if Chris Rigg is to stay,
02:46and obviously we don't know whether that's going to be the case,
02:48for me, that's another player in front of Matete potentially,
02:51in terms of I think they'll be operating in a similar position in the pitch.
02:54So I think there's huge uncertainty over both of those two players' futures.
03:00But I also think that, especially in Edmonton's case, I think,
03:03I think that fully fit, I think, is a place for him in the squad.
03:07So that's a little bit like what we talked about with Centre-Half.
03:09I think they're two players where we'll have a much stronger sense of that,
03:12probably after the trip to Spain,
03:14when Sunderland have played sort of three or four games,
03:17I think we'll have a much better sense of their futures then.
03:20Yeah, I don't know if I mentioned Chris Rigg there on the list of players
03:23I read out for Central Midfield is because he played as,
03:26he played on the right, didn't he, towards the end of last season.
03:28He's also played more centrally as like a number 10.
03:31He has played in Central Midfield as well,
03:33but it looks like he's set to be part of the first-team squad now.
03:36Obviously, as you mentioned with his kind of contract situation,
03:39that he can't sign a professional deal until his 17th birthday.
03:42So Sunderland would hope that they can agree a professional contract with him.
03:46But I'm assuming now you see him part of the first-team squad
03:49and a player that will be pushing for significant minutes in the upcoming campaign,
03:53assuming that he stays at Sunderland.
03:55Yeah, I definitely think if he stays,
03:57it'll be because there is going to be playing opportunities for him.
04:01My gut tells me whether we'll see him back on the right wing next season,
04:05I think is unlikely.
04:06I think it's going to be a big pre-season for Patrick Roberts,
04:09and I still think he's kind of the one really where I think he'll probably have the chance to start the season.
04:16Rigg, I don't see playing his light in a midfield two yet.
04:19I think that's ultimately probably where we'll end up.
04:21But I think at the moment, that's a huge responsibility for someone who'll be 17 at the start of the season.
04:26So I see Rigg when he's used as being one of the players behind the striker,
04:31whether that's coming off the flank or playing more as that sort of really high-energy number 10.
04:36So I don't at the moment see him as part of that sort of midfield blend, if you like,
04:42even though I think that's going to be his long-term position,
04:44and potentially he could go and play for England there or whatever.
04:47I think next season, I think we'll see a lot of him,
04:49but I think it'll still be in really attacking positions where he'll have the licence to really go and press the opposition,
04:57show that energy and try and get into the box.
05:01I think we'll see less of him on the right wing than we did in the final weeks of last season.
05:05But I do think if he plays, it will be very much as an attacking midfielder rather than as a central midfielder.
05:12We'll move on to those attacking positions and quite a lot of options, really.
05:16But as you say, a few kind of players that you could say were the point to prove, maybe.
05:21In terms of Sunderland's options in wide areas, the list I've got here,
05:24Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts, Abdullah Barre, Romain Mundel and Dewis and Bennett as well,
05:29coming back from a loan spell at Greek side Aris FC.
05:34I suppose in terms of Sunderland needing to strengthen, a lot is going to depend on Jack Clarke.
05:39And it seems probably likely for a while that he's going to move on this summer
05:43after multiple bids over the last two transfer windows.
05:47And that would leave a big void to fill, wouldn't it, Phil?
05:50With those other players, for any of them to step up and score the goals that Jack Clarke has,
05:5515 championship goals last season.
05:57That's going to be a big ask if Clarke does leave this summer.
06:02I think it's probably the position on the pitch where there is the most uncertainty for me.
06:07And what I mean by that is you've got a large number of players,
06:11Sunderland are not short of players in the wide areas.
06:14But there are huge question marks over pretty much everyone going into this pre-season period.
06:19So all of those players at some point have been outstanding or shown flashes of real potential.
06:24I thought Barre started last season really strongly,
06:28but then had a really difficult second half of the season.
06:31And again, huge question marks of what his best position is.
06:35Is he ready to be a starter in the championship side that's pushing for the top six?
06:39Pirate Roberts, the end of the previous season under Tony Mowbray, was exceptional.
06:44I actually thought he started this season okay.
06:47But when he had those injuries over the festive period, it seemed to really knock his progress.
06:50And if we're honest, he was nowhere near as best in the final weeks of the campaign.
06:55Romain Mundell, incredibly early days.
06:58There's no way you could judge him on what we've seen so far.
07:01I thought there were times where you could see he's got some really good attributes,
07:04scored a good goal, didn't he, in Southampton.
07:06But again, we haven't seen consistent performances from him,
07:11just because he hasn't had that game time yet and he's been adjusting to his new role.
07:15Clark is the one who you can sort of hang your hat on.
07:19But it still feels most likely that he will leave this summer
07:21because he's got two years left on his contract, as I mentioned earlier with Neil.
07:25The difference with Clark and Neil is with Neil, I think realistically,
07:30there is a chance the gaps that exist at the moment could be bridged.
07:35With Clark, those negotiations have been on-off for the best part of a year now.
07:39And there's been no sign that the bridge is going to be gapped.
07:44And that means that Sunderland are probably in a position where this window is going to be the one
07:48where they can recoup a huge fee for Clark.
07:50Every window moving forward now, that valuation is going to go down, isn't it?
07:54So I think that ultimately, this is a position where Sunderland don't need bodies
08:02in terms that they've got a lot of players.
08:04But there is, I think, a great amount of uncertainty on this position.
08:07And as you mentioned, what happens with Clark is going to have a huge knock-on effect
08:12because I don't think at the moment we've seen enough from the other players
08:15to suggest that they're ready to step up and take some of that burden.
08:18So for me, if Clark goes, I think Sunderland will have to go back into the market
08:22and I think they'll have to get some level of proven experience.
08:26And that potentially means that you're squeezing the game time of Dewis and Bennet,
08:30it's an obvious one.
08:32Barr potentially moving forward could be another one if Roberts has a good pre-season.
08:37So I think this is one where there's going to be loads of moving parts
08:41moving through the pre-season period.
08:42I actually envisage quite a bit of transfer movement in this position,
08:46but at the moment it's very difficult to predict who it's going to actually be.
08:51This is a position where there's a lot to play for in pre-season
08:54because I think right now, if we assume that Clark's going to go,
08:59I think both positions are up for grabs
09:00and I think anybody could potentially put their hand up and take them.
09:03But for me, Sunderland's succession plan is to try and get players ready
09:08for when a big player leaves so they don't have to go out and spend.
09:11They've already got that option in the building.
09:13I don't see that right now with Clark.
09:16Yeah, it's just a big step up, isn't it, for someone like Amundel
09:19who came in in January, as you say, very early days,
09:21for him to kind of come into Clark's position
09:23and then he's not really a direct replacement for Clark,
09:27but he's taking Clark's position,
09:28but you can't expect him to be scoring 15 goals
09:31the way that Clark did last season.
09:33So that's very difficult for him.
09:35Do you think, as you say, a lot to play for in pre-season,
09:37but kind of when those slots are settled,
09:40potentially one or two strikers, one or two wingers come in
09:43to fill those positions that then maybe another loan move could happen
09:46for a Bennett or Amundel or someone like that,
09:50the players that perhaps they're not going to get as much first team football
09:53and that becomes clear towards the end of the window,
09:55maybe another loan move,
09:56because they've signed quite long-term contracts as well, these young players.
09:58My gut is with someone like the other players we've talked about,
10:01like Joannes or something, that with Bennett,
10:03if you're not going to get in the first team,
10:05then how long do you keep going out on loan for?
10:07At which point do you look at a permanent move?
10:09But the thing is, you forget how young Bennett still is.
10:11If he was a homegrown player,
10:14you wouldn't be worried at all, would you really?
10:16You'd just be looking at going when he came into the team,
10:18showed some promise and as quite often happens,
10:20he's now trying to find that consistency.
10:24The difference with Bennett is obviously how will he feel personally
10:28about potentially not being a first team player?
10:30Will he want to go back on loan again?
10:32We know that his international career is something that is incredibly important to him,
10:36something that really drives him.
10:37He wants to be in the Costa Rica squad.
10:39Will he be willing to go back on loan again?
10:41Or if he's not going to play for Sunderland regularly this season,
10:44will he be looking at it and going,
10:45well, I need to move somewhere where I can find a home and settle
10:49and really boost my international prospects, which are at risk probably,
10:53falling a little bit by the wayside.
10:55So my gut is that if Clarke goes and Sunderland strengthen again,
10:59then yeah, Bennett and Mundell would be two contenders potentially for a loan.
11:03But I think the one caveat with that is that,
11:07is that what either player is actually looking for at this stage of their career?
11:10I'm not so sure.
11:11So Mundell, I think it would make sense to keep in the building
11:15because I think ultimately you've brought someone in who you think can make an impact
11:19There will be opportunities from the bench.
11:21There will be the cup games where you think he'd be nailed on the start.
11:24And then you can sort of have a good look at him in a competitive environment
11:28and hopefully he'll really show quick progress
11:31because obviously he's a player with huge pedigree.
11:33And then you can look at whether he's ready to sort of become more of a regular starter.
11:36So Bennett is probably the one that I see the most question marks over,
11:40even though, as you've rightly said, he's got a lot of years and his contract is still very young.
11:44For me, Birmingham is the key conundrum in this position.
11:48This is obviously the position he started in last season
11:51and he sort of got dragged around out of because of other issues in the squad.
12:04Barr is potentially the other one, really,
12:06because Barr is the one where I think he'll be expected now to play regularly.
12:10We've seen that he's definitely got the promise to do that at Sunderland.
12:14His goal output in terms of goals and assists has been OK at times.
12:19But if Roberts recaptures his very best form, which let's hope he does during pre-season,
12:24then I think you wonder how regularly Barr's going to get in the team.
12:27Will he be happy with that at this stage of his career? I'm not so sure.
12:31So, yeah, I really do think both of these positions are all to play for in pre-season.
12:37I think it's going to be one of the most interesting things to watch as those games start.
12:41Things we mentioned earlier as well, the other one, Embleton,
12:43is potentially could come into one of those positions.
12:45He's started on the left, of course, in the playoff final with four of all those injury setbacks.
12:50He's a player who can use both feet very well.
12:53And if he has a good pre-season, perhaps he could break into the side.
12:55But the year he's had with the injury setbacks,
12:59it's going to obviously be challenging for him to come back and find the level he was at.
13:03But hopefully he can do that.
13:04And I suppose the other one is Tom Watson.
13:06I suppose fans might be wondering about him as well.
13:08Still only 17, so still very raw, had a very good season for the under-21 side.
13:13But speaking to Graeme Murthy, the under-21's boss,
13:17full of praise for Tom Watson, but he was kind of,
13:19when I spoke to him last season, was kind of suggesting there's still a long way to go
13:22before he kind of breaks into the first team and kind of does what Chris Rigg has been doing recently.
13:28So I expect with him, he'd still probably be regularly playing for the under-21s
13:32and kind of just be kind of getting more exposure in the first team.
13:36Perhaps he'll be on the bench a couple of times.
13:37Now you can name more substitutes, you can name nine substitutes now.
13:40So I'd expect that'll be kind of the case with Tom Watson next season.
13:45And because as we've said, he's still only 17, so still incredibly young.
13:50But moving on to the kind of attacking midfield positions,
13:54assuming kind of sudden play with the 4-2-3-1 as they did last season,
13:58when a new coach comes in, it could be completely different.
14:00They could play a different system.
14:02But in terms of options in that number 10 position,
14:04I've only got written down Adelo Shish, Joe Bellingham.
14:08Potentially Elliot Embleton could play in there as well.
14:11But certainly since January when Alex Pritchard left,
14:14I think that was an area where Sunderland didn't bring in a replacement for him.
14:18One of the most creative attacking midfield players, Bradley Deck.
14:22I know that he only made, I think he only made 12 appearances in the Championship for Sunderland.
14:26But that's another experienced player coming out of the squad.
14:29So I think potentially as well, Phil, that's another area where Sunderland
14:33do look quite light, depending on where Bellingham kind of plays.
14:36But it's another area, I think, where potentially we could see another signing come in in that role.
14:40Yeah, I agree.
14:42For me, Bellingham is the key conundrum in this position.
14:46This is obviously the position he started in last season
14:49and he sort of got dragged around out of because of other issues in the squad.
14:54The striker issues.
14:56He obviously ended up playing a little bit deeper, didn't he?
14:58Because of some issues in that position at times.
15:02Bellingham, for me, right now, my guess would be that he'll come back and play this position.
15:08I think that he's obviously got an eye for goal.
15:10He's good on the ball.
15:12He's got huge athleticism, which means he can sort of go from box to box.
15:16My gut is that right now they'll be viewing Bellingham as playing in this position.
15:21I think because of his goal threat.
15:23But there's a couple of obviously big ifs there.
15:26We know that there's genuine interest in Bellingham this summer.
15:29Crystal Palace are one of the teams that have a strong interest in him.
15:32Do I see him going this summer? No, I don't.
15:34I think he's another year.
15:36I think the Championship then, week in, week out, is obviously the best thing for him.
15:39I think Sunder know that if he plays another year, his value could really explode.
15:44And so I think they'd be reluctant to sell him now because I think they'd feel that
15:47although they'd make a huge profit on what they paid last summer,
15:49they could potentially get a lot more from down the line.
15:51So I don't see it happening, but we can't rule it out because the Premier League is the Premier League.
15:55And there's always a chance one of those clubs will put in a bid that's very difficult to turn down.
16:00If I'm right, I think Bellingham will come back and get a real run in this position.
16:04It probably doesn't become a huge priority because I think Aushi showed promise at times.
16:09He's another one on a very long-term contract who I think someone would be loathed to let go of at this stage.
16:15I think if next summer he hasn't been playing regularly, or even if January,
16:18you don't feel he's any further forward, then definitely you can look at making a switch.
16:22But Dodds invested quite a lot of time in Aushi's journey in the second half of last season.
16:27And I think although we didn't get the goals and assists you'd have liked to see,
16:31at times there was promise.
16:32And I like Aushi's work rate.
16:33That's what makes me think he's got a real chance of making it.
16:36He is obviously a technical player who will try things on the ball,
16:39but I never actually felt that his work rate was an issue.
16:43And I think that gives him a chance.
16:44So I think in theory, I'm happy-ish with Bellingham, Aushi and Rigg hopefully sort of crashing in
16:51as the kind of joker in the pack in this position,
16:54a young player who could really kick on, maybe, and put a real marker down in this position.
17:00But that depends on Sunderland sorting the striker situation,
17:02because right now, I know everyone will have their opinions,
17:05but when we're talking about current players contracted to the club right now for next season,
17:10for me, Job's still the best striker.
17:12And that means that this position, there's definitely some weaknesses,
17:15because I don't think you can guarantee that Aushi's just going to give you what you need
17:18over a 46-game championship season at this point.
17:22So if Sunderland sort their striker situation out,
17:25I'm a little bit less concerned about this position,
17:28because I do think with a break, with a full season of championship football under his belt,
17:32I think Job Bellingham could be a pretty effective player in this position.
17:35And I definitely think Aushi has promise, Rigg obviously has promise,
17:39and I think this will be his, probably, the position where we see him most.
17:43So this is one where throwing it a little bit forward,
17:45I think the striker situation holds the key to this position.
17:50We'll quickly come on to the striker situation there.
17:54And three strikers contracted to the club for next season,
17:58Nazri Roussin, Hamir and Eliza Mayenda, coming back from a loan spell at Hibernium.
18:05Out of the three that Sunderland signed last summer,
18:08obviously they signed Mason Burstow on loan as well, who will go back to Chelsea,
18:11and I'd be extremely surprised if that deal was revisited.
18:15It just didn't work out for him at Sunderland.
18:17But Roussin was the one out of the four that showed the most promise.
18:21He was obviously a little bit older as well.
18:23Obviously, there were the kind of challenges that he faced coming over from Ukraine.
18:28There was the language barrier, and they did kind of show kind of glimpses
18:32of that he could kind of do it at championship level.
18:34The other two, I think I thought Mayenda showed again in flashes.
18:37I thought he was very raw, but it looked like he had something about him.
18:40Hamir, I think he struggled and didn't look up to kind of making an impact at championship level.
18:47Out of those three, I think probably Roussin,
18:49you're looking at being a part of the first team squad next season.
18:53Possibly the other two, could they go back out on loan again,
18:55or could Mayenda go back out on loan?
18:58Hamir, I think, looks like he needs a loan move
18:59because Sunderland have given him a long-term contract,
19:02invested some money on him, but it doesn't look like he was up to the championship level.
19:06So potentially loans for those two,
19:08and then clearly Sunderland, I think, need to bring at least one this summer,
19:12possibly two new strikers.
19:13Would you agree with that, Phil?
19:16Yeah, 100%.
19:17I thought that Mayenda's loan was a really strange decision at the end of January.
19:21It completely contradicted what Michael Bale had told us about a week before,
19:25where he said Hamir maybe would be one for a loan.
19:28But with Mayenda, it made sense to keep him in the building
19:30so he could keep learning the language, so he could keep adjusting to the environment.
19:34Mayenda's so young.
19:35I think he's a little bit like Bennett.
19:37You can actually forget how young he really is.
19:40I really like Mayenda.
19:41I thought he looked really exciting when I saw him.
19:45But obviously, he looked like the inexperienced player that he is.
19:49I would be tempted to keep him around the building
19:52to do exactly what Sunderland said they were going to do for the second half of last season,
19:57to allow him to acclimatise to the area, to get to know the coaching staff,
20:00to get to know his teammates, to sort of settle.
20:03That's what I would do, whether that happens,
20:04or whether he goes back on a normal wait-and-see.
20:06What I would say is that I don't see him as a centre-forward next season.
20:10If I think he plays, he'll be an impact player from the wide areas.
20:13I think you can see that he's going to be a real threat,
20:16running behind from the left, cutting in from the left onto that left foot,
20:19which we've seen he's got a huge amount of power in.
20:21I remember that one goal he nearly scored, didn't he,
20:23where he came off the bench, where I can't remember who it was against,
20:25but he nearly got the goalkeeper back into the net.
20:29Yeah, could well have been.
20:31So I think there's definitely a lot to work with Mayenda,
20:34but I think maybe in the interim, it'll be from the wide areas rather than up front,
20:38and maybe a little bit like Rigue,
20:40where we're talking about how he's going to develop in position.
20:43He develops into his best position over a period of time.
20:45I think Mayenda's probably similar.
20:47Mia, for me, unless there's a huge improvement at the start of pre-season,
20:51which you can never rule out, I think he has to go back out on loan,
20:55because I think he needs to rebuild his confidence,
20:57and I think he needs to build his match sharpness.
20:59As you say, someone invested in him last summer, gave him a long-term contract.
21:02I think it's way too early to cut their losses,
21:05because they obviously saw something in him to invest in him.
21:07However, I think at the moment it takes a huge stretch
21:10to think that he's going to suddenly transform into a championship-ready striker.
21:14I think I would look to maybe loan him possibly abroad somewhere
21:18where he can rebuild his confidence,
21:20where he's going to get regular minutes and play a lot of football.
21:23And clearly, that leaves you with Roosan,
21:25and that means that you need two strikers, I would say.
21:29I would be looking at using the loan market.
21:30I think that's the easiest way to solve this issue,
21:34because you can invest more money,
21:36but not necessarily be tied to a long-term contract.
21:39So if you're worried about bringing in a player of a certain age,
21:41and you're worried about tying him to a long-term contract,
21:43it could drain your resources.
21:45I think a loan is probably the best way around that,
21:48albeit you know that competition is going to be fierce for those players.
21:51Roosan, I know Mike Dodds spoke very openly at the end of last season,
21:54didn't he, saying that someone would expect more from him last year
21:57and they think we'll get more from him.
21:59You know, his personal situation has much improved in that
22:01his language has improved and he has his family with him now.
22:04He's had time to settle into the area.
22:06And, you know, he's definitely someone who, if you can,
22:10you know, the language is improving and he can understand the press better,
22:13can understand the system better.
22:14We saw that his pressing, his athleticism,
22:17his work ethic was really, really good last year.
22:19And so that definitely gives him a chance.
22:20So, yeah, I think someone needs two strikers.
22:24I think you should probably look to use the loan market
22:28better than they did last season.
22:29I would like to see Mienda stay around for the year,
22:31but I don't see him as a starting contender for the centre-forward role.
22:35I think he'll be an impact player from wide areas,
22:38maybe occasionally up front with a partner.
22:41But I would definitely, right now, I think Mienda is the one where,
22:44you know, unless someone came in with a really good bid,
22:47I'd be looking to loan him out for a year.
22:49Go and play your football, go and rebuild your confidence
22:51and we'll sort of see where we are in a year's time.
22:56Yeah, and like I say, if someone can get those strikers in,
22:58I think that eases other positions a little bit
23:00because presuming Job stays, which I think, you know,
23:03right now I would guess that he will,
23:05then I think that frees him up to play a little bit deeper,
23:08which I suspect is probably going to be his position.
23:11But I saw a lot of promise from Job up front at times.
23:13I thought that performance at Cardiff was outstanding.
23:16He wasn't at that level every time he played there,
23:18but there's definitely something there.
23:20And this is why, you know,
23:22hopefully by the time most people listen to this,
23:24there is a new head coach.
23:25And so this doesn't seem like much of an issue.
23:27Once again, thanks a lot for listening to The Raw Podcast.
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