On the second anniversary of Roe v. Wade's reversal, Jessica Calarco, a sociologist and author of "Holding It Together: How Women Became America's Safety Net," talks to ForbesWomen editor Maggie McGrath about what women can do to strengthen laws and policies in their favor.
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00:00Hi, everyone. I'm Maggie McGrath, editor of Forbes Women. On June 24th, the U.S. will
00:09observe the second anniversary of Roe v. Wade being overturned, and in honor of the occasion,
00:15women are going on strike. Here to explain exactly what this means and the effect it
00:20could have on society is author and sociologist Jessica Calarco. She has a new book out called
00:27Holding It Together, How Women Became America's Social Safety Net. Jessica, thank you so much
00:31for joining us.
00:32Thank you so much for having me.
00:35Now, you have said somewhat famously in women's circles, or at least in my world, that other
00:40countries have social safety nets, the U.S. has women. And you argue that it's kind of
00:46intentional and systematic that women have become the social safety net in the U.S. Before
00:52we talk about the women's strike, can you break down that thesis? Why is it that you
00:57say this?
00:58Yeah, so essentially, other countries have invested in social safety nets to help people
01:02manage risk. They use taxes and regulations, especially on wealthy people and corporations
01:07to protect people from falling into poverty and precarity, to give them a leg up in reaching
01:12economic opportunities, and also to ensure that everyone has the time and energy to help
01:17take care of their communities and their families and their homes and even themselves. Whereas
01:22in the U.S., we've instead tried to DIY society. We've kept taxes low and slashed huge holes
01:28in the safety net that we do have. And we've told people that if they just make good choices,
01:32they won't actually need a social safety net at all. And the problem there is that people
01:37do need a social safety net. Forcing people to manage that much risk on their own has
01:42left many families and communities teetering on the edge of collapse. And yet we haven't,
01:47in part because we have women holding it together, filling in the gaps both in our
01:51economy and in our social safety net. So women are the default caregivers for the children,
01:56for the sick, for the elderly. And they're also the ones who are disproportionately filling
02:01the lowest paid jobs in our economy. Jobs oftentimes in essential service sectors that
02:06are too labor intensive, but also too necessary to be both profitable and broadly accessible.
02:12Jobs in child care, jobs in home health care that other countries have funded as part of
02:16the safety net instead. And so what I show in the book is that women's unpaid and underpaid
02:21labor is helping to maintain this illusion of a DIY society and making it seem as though
02:26we can get by without investing in the kind of social safety net that many other countries
02:31take for granted.
02:33You've also written that billionaires and big corporations, for profit corporations
02:38have effectively bought politicians that embrace their view of a DIY society. So how much blame
02:45do we have to give billionaires and big corporations for the state of affairs right now?
02:51I mean, I think we can trace it all the way back even a century. In the book, I trace
02:55this back to the 1930s and to the reaction of wealthy people and corporations to the
03:00New Deal, to Franklin Roosevelt's policies put in place in the wake of the Great Depression,
03:04which was where we first saw kind of increasing corporate tax rates as a way to fund this
03:08kind of stronger social safety net, things like Social Security and Medicare. And at
03:13the time, those wealthy people and kind of big business elites were looking for ways
03:17to persuade the American public that we didn't actually need a social safety net, that we
03:22could get by without one. And what they found at the time was essentially neoliberal philosophy.
03:27A group of economists in Austria who were developing this idea that countries don't
03:32actually need social safety nets and are actually better off without them because people without
03:36that protection will keep themselves safe from risk. And this idea has been widely debunked
03:42over time, but it was used to fuel decades-long propaganda campaigns to shape decades of
03:48U.S. social and economic policy and to create this sort of perception that we didn't need
03:54a social safety net, which many people in the U.S. continue to believe today, despite
03:58the evidence that this is causing harm and particularly causing harm to the women who
04:02are trying to pick up the pieces and hold it together instead.
04:07Now you've articulated the lower paid jobs that women hold, the caregiving responsibilities
04:12paid and unpaid that women hold. Let's talk about this women's strike. The organizers
04:17of the Women's March have said that women and girls and allies should withhold their
04:23labor on June 24th, the second anniversary of the Dobbs decision. How effective could
04:31this be? Let's start with a simple question. If everyone were to participate, what would
04:35happen? Would society crumble to a halt?
04:38I mean, we can look in the book, I talk about a parallel example. There was a women's day
04:43off, they called it, that happened in Iceland in the 1970s. And essentially what happened
04:48at the time was what the organizers of this contemporary women's strike are calling for
04:51in the sense that women took the day off not only from paid work, but also from caregiving
04:57responsibilities. And there was a BBC News report at the time that said banks, factories
05:01and some shops had to close, as did schools and nurseries, leaving many fathers with no
05:05choice but to take their children to work. There were reports of men arming themselves
05:09with sweets and coloring pencils to entertain the crowds of overexcited children in their
05:13workplaces. Sausages, easy to cook and popular with children, were in such demand that the
05:17shops sold out. And that's sort of the tongue in cheek sort of response. But this also led
05:22to massive changes in the Icelandic economy and in their political system. It led to their
05:27first election of a woman president. And it also helped to make Iceland what is now one
05:33of oftentimes ranked as the best country in the world for women in light of the policies
05:37that this day off helped to spark.
05:41So what you just described was effectively all of the Icelandic women really taking a
05:48step back from their duties so everyone else felt the pain. What would it take to create
05:54a similar effect in the U.S.? Because I feel like we've been talking about female caregivers,
06:00women and people who identify as women as being the bulk of societal support since the
06:06pandemic. And nothing has really changed.
06:09Yeah, I mean, I think one of the challenges is that we've used these kinds of myths that
06:14I was mentioning before to guilt and gaslight women into doing this work, even when it's
06:18taking a toll on themselves and on their families. And so I think it would take to get that kind
06:23of broad level of participation. It would take a women, women being willing to reject
06:27those myths, to be to being willing to reject the idea that they are supposed to do this
06:31work, that they are naturally better suited for this work, and also to reject some of
06:35the myths of things like meritocracy, which I talk about in the book, which women often
06:39fall into as a way to judge other women, to make themselves feel better about themselves
06:44or their own parenting, and even reject the kind of social safety net that might objectively
06:48leave their own families better off simply so that they can feel morally superior to
06:53other families that struggle to get by without a net.
06:56And so I think to get that broad level of participation, it would take changing some
06:59of our cultural thinking, which is a hard thing to do, especially in the short term.
07:04Was the Icelandic strike just one day or did it happen over the course of many days?
07:09So there was sort of one key day that happened in 1975, but it certainly led to ripples
07:14of continuing activism and continuing efforts on the part of women's organizations at the
07:18time. So based on your research, if if all women were to participate on June 24th
07:24and withhold their labor, both paid and unpaid, what type of effect do you think that
07:28would have on American society or would it need to go beyond the 24th?
07:33I mean, I think certainly I think if we were to get that kind of broad scale participation,
07:38it's hard to say exactly. I think people would take notice.
07:40We saw even in the wake of Trump's election in 2020, you know, massive kind of protests
07:46from women across the country that did lead to some change and arguably helped lay the
07:50groundwork for some of the the policies that we put in place during the COVID-19 pandemic
07:55that, at least in the short term, helped families in tremendous ways.
07:59But at the same time, and as that example illustrates, especially given that we're unlikely
08:03to get universal participation among women, given these kinds of myths that we've been
08:07led to believe, we have to think about how do we sustain this effort over time and how
08:11do we turn this one day of protests into a sustained organizing campaign, into ways of
08:16helping women to feel connected to each other and to see the opportunities for using
08:21collective participation as a way to push for social change.
08:25I've not seen a demographic breakdown of who is expected to participate, but I think one
08:30of the things I'm wondering is, will we see all levels of socioeconomic status participation
08:35here? Because if it is just women in white collar jobs who are the most advantaged in
08:41society and you still have women in lower income tiers doing that care work, manning
08:49schools, manning caregiving facilities, how different will the day really feel?
08:54And that's the other key piece here, is that it's not just sort of cultural ideas that are
08:58keeping us stuck in place, but systems of exploitation as well.
09:01And I talk in the book about how this kind of reliance on women as our safety net, the
09:05burden of that disproportionately falls to low income women and particularly women of
09:09color because we often leave them, you know, because of our sort of efforts to be this DIY
09:14society, we've underinvested in their families and communities in ways that leave those
09:19women disproportionately, not only without the support that they need, but also
09:23essentially with nowhere to turn for support and nowhere to hide when other people ask
09:27them to fill in the gaps, to be the social safety net.
09:30And so what that means is that even if they want to take the day off on the 24th, there's a
09:35good chance that they know that if they are not doing that work, there is no one to fill
09:38in for them. And so that could potentially leave others, you know, children, elderly people,
09:42the sick, you know, people who need care and who can't take care of themselves, you know,
09:47to fend for themselves in ways that could be deeply detrimental.
09:50And that's I talk in the book about women who want to take more time for themselves, want
09:54to try to, you know, have that space and that energy to do more for their own
10:00well-being, but often feel like they can't let the other people down around them because the
10:04other people around them simply have nowhere else to turn.
10:07And or they could receive penalties for striking, for not showing up to work,
10:13more than just a slap on the wrist.
10:15Some people could could lose their job.
10:18Absolutely. And certainly that gets at the idea that the safety net that we do have is not
10:21designed to protect people, particularly with things like attacks on unionization
10:27and the limited protections that we offer workers in our society that, you know, many women
10:31that I talk to for my research didn't have access even to paid family leave after giving
10:35birth to a child. I talk to bus drivers, for example, who went back to work still bleeding in the
10:40bus seat while they were because they didn't have access to any paid leave.
10:44And so we can imagine that, you know, if the choice is to not get paid or, you know, have this
10:48day off, I mean, I think we can certainly imagine that those who will risk their family's
10:52financial stability and security, those who will risk losing a job, especially given that we
10:57know that women are increasingly the primary breadwinners for their families, in addition to being
11:01the primary caregivers for their families.
11:03I think that that shift will absolutely complicate things in terms of women's ability to
11:08participate in such a strike.
11:10Now, working on this book, you talk to hundreds of women and pre and post the
11:15fall of Roe. Is that correct?
11:18Yes. So we started the research in 2018 and 2019.
11:21We started by recruiting 250 pregnant women from prenatal clinics to ask them about the
11:26kinds of parenting decisions that they planned to make for their new babies.
11:30And I initially envisioned it as a study of sort of the best laid plans of parenting.
11:33How things go wrong and you have to adjust and how do you cope in the process.
11:37And the pandemic hit in the middle of our data collection.
11:40And so we did additional waves of follow up surveys and interviews with those moms and with
11:44their partners. And then also did a couple of two national surveys of parents from across the
11:48U.S. to better understand how the data we were seeing on a qualitative scale mapped on
11:53to larger trends across the U.S.
11:55as well. And so certainly, I mean, these kinds of shifts not only in pandemic policy, but in
12:00terms of reproductive health care and policies on that front have played a huge role in
12:05shaping families lives over the last couple of years.
12:08Now, Jessica, as we approach the second anniversary of Roe v.
12:12Wade being overturned in the U.S., I'm curious, what did your research reveal is the tie
12:18between reproductive health laws, reproductive health access and the way that women and
12:23families structure those families and make decisions about their lives?
12:29Absolutely. So essentially, these attacks on reproductive freedom are making it easier for women to be
12:33pushed into exploitative relationships, whether that's in the paid economy or in their family
12:39relationships at home.
12:40And certainly this was happening long before the fall of the fall of Roe through the Dobbs
12:45decision, in part because states and many cultural organizations have been working for decades
12:50to try to make it more difficult for women to access abortion.
12:53In the book, I tell the story of a mom that I call Brooke, who actually never wanted to be a
12:58mother herself. She grew up in a very difficult home situation.
13:02And at the same time, and like many young women, she ended up getting unexpectedly pregnant in
13:06college. And she and her boyfriend initially planned to get an abortion and his parents even
13:11offered to pay for it.
13:12But her mother is very deeply, deeply religious and ended up persuading Brooke not to
13:18terminate the pregnancy and told her that, you know, well, I'll help you finish college.
13:22I'll help you raise the baby.
13:24But ultimately, when the baby was born, they figured out that they couldn't afford both
13:28college and child care.
13:30And so Brooke ended up not only dropping out of college, but also, you know, taking a low
13:35wage, signing up for welfare and taking a low wage job, which is required to be able to
13:39qualify for those kinds of welfare benefits and even moved into a shelter to be able to
13:44qualify for affordable housing.
13:45And, you know, this was deeply challenging for Brooke, in part because she wasn't
13:50emotionally prepared to be in this kind of mothering role.
13:52And also because the best job that was available to her at the time was a low wage job in
13:57child care. And she, you know, she actually really liked that job, but it was deeply low
14:02paying in the sense that it was even when she got promoted to assistant director of the
14:07center, she was still only making about twenty five thousand dollars a year.
14:10And so that limited her options, particularly in terms of being able to go back to school
14:14and finish college, something that she really wanted to do, but felt as though she couldn't
14:19because she didn't trust her family to care for her son so that she could take night
14:23classes, for example. And so she felt like she just had to kind of continue to make it
14:27work in this sort of low wage job.
14:29And that, you know, tracks with what we see nationally in terms of the fact that states
14:32that have been putting stricter restrictions on abortion and places where kind of
14:37cultural norms further stigmatize abortion, we see lower rates of college completion
14:42among women. We see lower rates of workforce participation.
14:44We see lower incomes for women, in part because like Brooke, they often kinds of
14:49unanticipated pregnancies and the responsibilities that we keep on women in the process
14:53end up being pushed into low wage jobs and also into doing this kind of care work for
14:58their families as well.
14:59And so it's certainly I think we can see how these kinds of attacks on reproductive
15:03freedoms will will further limit opportunities for women and encourage, unfortunately,
15:07exploitation in the process as well.
15:10Who it is, what you've described as a vicious cycle, women are the social safety net,
15:16and in turn, reproductive health policies are just making it harder for everyone to
15:22hold everything together, to kind of paraphrase the title of your book.
15:25I want to ask, having talked to hundreds of people over the last several years, having
15:31written this book, knowing that this anniversary is looming down on us, are you
15:36optimistic for any sort of policy change or for a stronger social safety net in the
15:42future? Or are you left with a state of feeling a little more pessimistic?
15:48I mean, I think there is the possibility of hope, at least in the sense that this is a
15:53moment where women are seeing the need to come together to demand not only the kinds
15:59of protections that they need for their bodies and their families, but also the kind of
16:04social safety net that would help to protect them from this kind of exploitation and to
16:08make it easier for them and for others, particularly those who are in less privileged
16:12positions, to be able to fight back against these kinds of relations that our society
16:17is based on. And so at the same time, we have to think about what will it take to achieve
16:21that kind of change. And I talk in the book about how what's necessary there is for
16:25people to reject the kinds of myths that encourage us to focus on just bettering
16:31ourselves in this system and to recognize how if we can all see our shared relationships
16:37and particularly how care links our fates, you know, that we are all part of webs of care
16:42where we are at various points in our lives, both dependent on other people for
16:46caregiving and will be caregivers ourselves.
16:48And so if we recognize that that we all participate in these shared webs of care, we
16:53can see that kind of shared identity and shared participation as a source of cohesion
16:58and as a way that we can fight together, despite the ways that the sort of engineers
17:02and profiteers have tried to divide us, tried to divide us by race or class or gender
17:06or politics to really come together to fight collectively for that kind of social safety
17:11net, because, you know, at least for now, we still live in a democracy.
17:15And so we still have the potential at least to to vote collectively, to act collectively
17:20in ways that could help to reduce or limit the power of those kind of small number
17:25of elites who are pushing the system to benefit themselves at the expense of everyone
17:30else.
17:32Jessica Kalarko, sociologist, author of Holding It Together, thank you so
17:37much for joining us. We so appreciate your time and insight.
17:40Thank you for having me.