#offtherecord #IslamabadHighCourt #SupremeJudicialCouncil #Letter #kashifabbasi
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Kashif Abbasi
Guests:
- Hafiz Ahsaan Ahmad Khokhar (Lawyer)
- Abid S Zuberi (Lawyer)
- Irshad Bhatti (Analyst)
- Shahzad Iqbal (Analyst)
IHC judges write to SJC against 'interference' in judicial matters | Kashif Abbasi's Analysis
IHC kay 6 judges ka Sangeen Ilzamat Say Bhara Khat | Law Expert Hafiz Ahsan Ahmed's Analysis
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
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ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Kashif Abbasi
Guests:
- Hafiz Ahsaan Ahmad Khokhar (Lawyer)
- Abid S Zuberi (Lawyer)
- Irshad Bhatti (Analyst)
- Shahzad Iqbal (Analyst)
IHC judges write to SJC against 'interference' in judicial matters | Kashif Abbasi's Analysis
IHC kay 6 judges ka Sangeen Ilzamat Say Bhara Khat | Law Expert Hafiz Ahsan Ahmed's Analysis
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
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NewsTranscript
00:00 As-salamu alaykum, dear viewers, you are watching the program with Kashif Abbasi.
00:14 Six judges of Islamabad High Court.
00:17 A letter that they have written.
00:19 It is the time of the news.
00:21 Islamabad Supreme Court has a full court hearing.
00:31 The Supreme Court is waiting for the announcement of the verdict.
00:33 The Supreme Judicial Council has asked for guidance.
00:37 These six judges have written a very serious charge sheet.
00:41 The letter has very serious allegations.
00:46 They have accused the Supreme Court of harassment by the intelligence agencies.
00:51 The charge sheet is against the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court.
00:57 These cases have been raised with the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court.
01:04 The Chief Justice has been told about the current situation.
01:07 What kind of pressure is being put on the Chief Justice?
01:10 Families of the people are being kidnapped.
01:13 People are being thrown out of their homes.
01:16 From the bedroom and sitting room.
01:18 But nothing happened.
01:20 I think that after informing the Chief Justice several times,
01:24 the judges felt that they had no other option.
01:31 So they had to write this letter.
01:34 One thing is for sure, there are six judges.
01:38 The senior judge is not included in this letter.
01:46 The first letter was written to the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court.
01:52 He is included in that letter.
01:54 What is the reason that he is not included in this letter?
01:57 Maybe he thought that he had already done the race he wanted to do.
02:03 Pressure was put on different cases.
02:05 The case of the Tereza Ali in white case.
02:08 Two judges gave a verdict.
02:10 Due to the pressure, the judge had to go to the hospital.
02:14 The judges had to increase their security.
02:16 There was so much pressure.
02:18 The Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court was informed.
02:20 But nothing happened.
02:22 In May 2023, a brother of an Islamabad High Court judge was kidnapped by armed men.
02:29 He was kept with children.
02:32 He was elected.
02:35 He was given electric shocks.
02:36 Video recordings were made.
02:38 There are details of the pressure on the session judges.
02:44 How pressure was put in this letter.
02:47 A judge who refused to listen to the case,
02:50 was first put in OSD.
02:52 Then he was transferred to Punjab.
02:55 To scare him, crackers were thrown in his house.
03:00 The judges were present in the room.
03:03 There was a change of mind.
03:05 The judges of Islamabad High Court also talked about it.
03:10 But the transfer was done by those judges who did this.
03:16 On May 10, 2023, the judges of Islamabad High Court wrote to the Chief Justice of Pakistan.
03:22 These incidents were recorded.
03:26 The court requested for an intervention.
03:30 The judges of Islamabad High Court considered it appropriate to bring it to the attention of the Supreme Court.
03:36 The Chief Justice was asked for time.
03:38 Six judges went.
03:40 The Chief Justice was in Lahore.
03:41 One judge was undergoing a minor surgery.
03:43 Six judges met.
03:45 Justice Ejaz-ul-Ahsan was also there.
03:47 Senior Peony Judge Qazi Faisal, who is now the Chief Justice of Pakistan, was also talked to.
03:53 I have said this before.
03:56 During 2023, a camera and a sim were installed at the home of a judge.
04:04 The camera was recording and sending the material.
04:07 Such cameras were also found in the bedroom.
04:12 This was also brought in the notice of the Chief Justice.
04:17 The Chief Justice was also pressured by Justice Tariq Mehmood Jahangiri to meet the intelligence officers.
04:27 This is also mentioned.
04:29 Justice Mohsin Akhtar Qayani was also tried to influence.
04:33 He was also tried to put pressure on.
04:37 This letter was written to the Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court.
04:42 This is also mentioned.
04:44 Justice Arbaab Muhammad Tahir was pressured by his relatives.
04:48 His tax investigation has been started.
04:53 Pressure was put on him to find a way to make a decision.
04:57 In this whole debate, this letter is a very important FIR, a charge sheet.
05:03 It was written by six judges.
05:05 What do they want?
05:07 They want a letter from the Supreme Judicial Council to call a hearing of all the courts and the Judicial Convention.
05:19 So that if there are problems in front of other judges, they also come forward.
05:23 They say what is the problem?
05:25 The problem is that we do not know what reaction to give if a judge is coerced by the agencies.
05:33 The second question is how to prove these allegations?
05:39 This is the second question.
05:41 The third question is whether to deal with this individually or as an agency.
05:49 These are the basic questions.
05:51 We have with us Abid Sahsan Ahmed.
05:53 Thank you both for your presence.
05:56 Abid Zubairi is with us from Karachi.
05:58 Thank you very much, Abid Zubairi.
06:00 We will try to talk to President of Islamabad High Court Bar,
06:05 Vice Chairman of Pakistan Bar Council.
06:08 What to do? This is a big charge sheet.
06:11 In the name of Allah, the most Merciful.
06:13 Kashif, thank you very much for giving us this opportunity.
06:16 There is no doubt that this letter that has come to the court today,
06:19 which I think was sent to the chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council,
06:25 is unprecedented in the judicial and constitutional history of Pakistan.
06:30 Six judges of the same High Court make very serious allegations.
06:35 Some judges of India had held a press conference.
06:37 Do you remember? It was a big issue.
06:39 Five judges, if I am not mistaken.
06:41 And that was on your bench, the fixation of cases.
06:46 And we were talking about this a while ago.
06:48 No, I will come to that.
06:50 I will come to that.
06:51 When we go back two and a half years,
06:53 it is not a matter of one day that we have reached today.
06:55 This is unprecedented.
06:57 The letter was written.
06:58 Kashif, three or four things have increased in this letter.
07:00 One is that it has been said that there is executive interference,
07:04 there are intelligence agencies.
07:06 And the third is inaction by the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court.
07:10 I mean, this charge sheet is also against him.
07:12 On six occasions.
07:13 No, no, I am coming to that.
07:14 The Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court was told that these incidents are happening.
07:18 I am coming to that.
07:19 And what was the objection of Shaukat Siddiqui?
07:21 It was that you went to the bar and gave the speech.
07:24 Why not? Why did you not go to your own institution?
07:26 Why did you not go to your own chief and Supreme Court?
07:28 Look, I will come to that, what is actually happening.
07:30 What happened is that he also told the Chief Justice.
07:33 Now, Kashif, the things to be seen are that
07:35 this should not happen at all.
07:36 Pakistan's intelligence agencies or Pakistan's executives
07:40 should not interfere in the matters of the judiciary or judge.
07:45 But what is the consequence of this?
07:47 The consequence is that if we look at its two legal aspects,
07:50 then number one is that the forum chosen by the judges,
07:54 the Supreme Judicial Council, is not that forum to investigate.
07:58 That forum is to try the misconduct of the judges,
08:01 prosecute and recommend.
08:02 Who makes the Code of Conduct, Hafiz?
08:03 The Code of Conduct is made after the approval of the Supreme Judicial Council.
08:06 Wait a minute, wait here.
08:07 He is saying this.
08:08 He is saying that the Code of Conduct of the judges is made by the Supreme Judicial Council.
08:12 Yes.
08:13 It is for the removal of the judge, not for the trial to an agency.
08:19 He is saying that the Code of Conduct given by the Supreme Judicial Council
08:23 does not have any guidance on how the judges should react
08:27 if they are coerced or put under pressure.
08:29 Kashif, it has a constitution in it.
08:31 The constitution says that if I take oath as a judge of the High Court or Supreme Court,
08:37 and it is written in our Schedule 3,
08:39 the final conclusion is that I will discharge my constitutional duties without fear,
08:45 favour and ill will.
08:48 So if all three exist in some place,
08:50 then what does it mean?
08:52 Either you compromise your position as the Supreme ACP of the Constitution,
08:55 or you give space to someone else.
08:58 Now the matter is…
08:59 Sir, the pressure is too much here.
09:01 The pressure is being put on us again and again.
09:02 Sir, look at this.
09:03 One more thing.
09:04 There is some criticism.
09:06 Why didn't you say this earlier?
09:09 I was surprised and worried.
09:12 I will come to the political angle that has been taken.
09:16 I will come to that.
09:18 Let's take a political angle.
09:20 Why didn't you come to the court on the first day?
09:22 They are writing letters to their institutions,
09:24 telling their Chief Justice again and again that this is happening.
09:27 Give me a second.
09:29 What has happened is that for the last two and a half to three years,
09:36 we have been taking political questions to the courts.
09:38 The courts have their own divisions.
09:40 The fundamental reason behind this is that there is no communication between the judges and the Chief Justice.
09:47 And we saw this experience in the era of Justice Baniyal and in the era of Qazi Faiz Issa.
09:52 Even then, these letters were sent.
09:54 And it was said that the selection of the bench should be correct.
09:58 It was said that there should be consultation in case fixations.
10:02 It was said that there should not be one bench, but more benches should be sent.
10:06 And this is the proposition that if these judges…
10:09 It is not in today's letter.
10:10 It is not in yesterday's letter.
10:11 It is written in the old letter.
10:12 No, no.
10:13 This letter was written on 12 February 2024.
10:16 When the law on practice and procedure came, when the Parliament passed it,
10:19 then Justice Mohsin Qayani wrote a note for the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court
10:24 that we should also go into it and go over this fixation.
10:28 Sir, it is written in the era of Athar Minilla that senior puny judges used to make the bench.
10:35 This judge came and he told Amit Bharat about the whole matter.
10:38 Then see that if the Parliament had done practice and procedure at that time,
10:42 then we said that this is interference in the independence of judiciary
10:48 and the Parliament cannot do this.
10:50 So, we had programs here, our lawyers came, politicians came,
10:54 the opposite sides also came.
10:55 So, when the Chief Justice came and revived that suspended order after 6 months,
11:00 then today he realized that thing.
11:02 The second thing that has been revealed in that thing is that who is doing the probe.
11:05 The first probe was that the full court should be…
11:07 The first decision.
11:08 Yes.
11:09 The first decision.
11:10 You are saying that it is a wrong forum.
11:11 Sir, the real problem is how can you get away from the allegation?
11:13 No, when are we saying?
11:14 How big is the allegation?
11:15 No, no, now tell me.
11:16 We have gone on this.
11:17 See, the allegation is big, but you have not worn the right clothes
11:19 and put the allegation.
11:20 Tell me, if this forum was proper, then why did the full court meeting take place today?
11:23 Which forum is proper?
11:24 The proper forum is that first, there was an internal full court,
11:28 which should not have been there.
11:29 No, they have repeatedly put a hand that we have written and gone.
11:32 Now, in that, it is that the Chief Justice of Pakistan has called a full court on it,
11:37 definitely it will be resolved and it should be resolved and this thing should be proved.
11:42 Sir, I can understand this argument also that it should also be seen that what will be its legal procedure.
11:47 What?
11:48 First of all, the thing which you are saying that it is unprecedented in the history of Pakistan
11:54 that six judges of the High Court are saying that pressure should be put on us.
11:57 Absolutely.
11:58 So, this has to be resolved.
11:59 No, and who will resolve this?
12:01 And if the letter goes wrong, then it is fine.
12:03 No, no, if on one hand it is that we should also tell the Chief Justice of Pakistan
12:07 that he should not sit in certain cases also.
12:09 We should tell the Chief Justice of Pakistan that if some decisions come in front of you,
12:13 then there is trolling on the media, on social media, who has to make decisions?
12:17 Or we should decide that we have to do it on the roads, on the streets, outside the parliament,
12:22 the judiciary has to do it, let it land somewhere.
12:25 Now, if this matter has come to the Supreme Court, we should trust the Supreme Court.
12:29 Absolutely.
12:30 The Supreme Court will go and if these six judges have trusted that the matter should go to the Supreme Judicial Council,
12:36 to the Chief Justice, to the larger bench, to the Inquiry Commission, to Article 184(3),
12:43 this should be approved. But the bad factors should also be mentioned.
12:48 These are very serious bad factors.
12:50 In these, the deviance of these judges, not having a full court,
12:54 the use of discriminatory authority, which is called discretion,
12:58 these are all the factors that are in front of you.
13:00 Sir, but this can be tried to make it worse, that you are saying that,
13:03 I remember there was an Indian film, first he used to take the sign,
13:07 when there was a wall, first he used to say, sign it.
13:09 No, when did that thing happen?
13:10 First he used to take the sign of that person, then he used to take the sign of that person.
13:14 Sir, there is a case in front of this country, there are allegations in it.
13:18 No, who is the allegation against?
13:19 One allegation is that of the same province or the same High Court Chief Justice.
13:23 It is against him.
13:24 Now who will decide that? Neither you nor I will do it.
13:27 The Supreme Judicial Council.
13:28 The Supreme Court will do it, so we should trust the Supreme Court.
13:31 Absolutely.
13:32 The thing that will come in a while should be its way forward.
13:34 You are making the same announcement.
13:36 And I think that our Bar Associations have also done very responsively in this.
13:39 Samar Pakistan Bar Council.
13:40 No, they have also said.
13:41 They are sleeping, it will take time for them to wake up.
13:44 They have said, I think 5th of August.
13:46 Okay, the Supreme Court has also come, but what I am saying is that spontaneously,
13:50 whatever decision comes in this today, it comes under the Inquiry Commission,
13:55 it comes under 184, because you have sent it to the Supreme Judicial Council,
13:59 so the same Islamabad High Court Chief Justice, he is also a member of that.
14:03 Mr. Zubair, if you talk about him, then you have extended the topic of politics.
14:06 Akash, he is also a member of that.
14:07 So, I think that an independent forum is the Supreme Court.
14:11 Let the Supreme Court decide.
14:12 Nobody is saying that this should not happen.
14:13 And we trust on the Chief Justice and his colleague members.
14:15 Nobody is saying that this should not happen.
14:16 Mr. Zubair, because Moses judges also said that how the judge should respond to this pressure,
14:24 we have no code for this.
14:27 How does the judge prove this?
14:30 Because you have threatened me.
14:32 How will I prove that you have threatened me?
14:35 This decision should have been made during the time of Justice Siddiqui.
14:39 At that time, Mr. Saqib Musaar was in a hurry.
14:41 If that decision had come, then I think that today it would not have been referenced,
14:45 and today the matter would not have gone to this extent.
14:47 And will the judge deal with this individually or institutionally?
14:51 Mr. Zubair, you have raised very important questions.
14:53 Now, everyone is waiting for the announcement, but the six judges have made a very big deal.
15:00 In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
15:05 Today is a very bad day for this country.
15:07 The letter that has come to the public today,
15:10 this is a charge sheet against us, the system that is running here.
15:13 And the way this interference is happening in every institution,
15:16 you saw the election, in the judiciary, we know that these things are happening,
15:20 but to this extent, I did not know, or others will know, I personally did not know.
15:26 Today we have reached the point that our judges are asking for justice.
15:29 So where will we go, you and I?
15:31 You see, they are talking.
15:33 Sir, you are saying that this is bad, but I think it is good.
15:35 Now these problems are coming up, people are talking openly,
15:39 the system has come to the point where everyone is saying that these are the problems to be solved.
15:42 This opportunity has come out, so it has come out.
15:45 In the sense that our judicial interference,
15:47 the judicial independence and the judicial illusion that we had,
15:51 that our judiciary is independent, that has ended, sir.
15:53 Because from top to bottom, we have been accused that our judiciary is not independent.
15:58 In that, the judiciary is not independent,
16:00 and the decision-making, faith, and the law that they have adopted,
16:06 if they go to decide on that, then their brothers, mothers, daughters, children,
16:10 all the brothers and sisters are given electric shocks, and their things are taken out.
16:14 Sir, we all knew these things, but to this extent, we have come to know today,
16:18 my salute to these six judges, sir.
16:20 And this is not confined to that, this is the state of the judges of the High Court,
16:24 the constitutional protected, the lower judiciary, the district judiciary that they have talked about,
16:29 and on which Chief Justice Islamabad High Court has given a letter,
16:32 they have written a letter, asking to hold a full court meeting, that has not been done.
16:35 This is not a matter of division, this is a matter of institution.
16:39 The situation of the institution, by doing judicial interference,
16:44 and the people who are involved in this,
16:46 they should also be held accountable,
16:49 that the people who are involved in this, should be made their facilitators.
16:52 These six judges have written a letter,
16:55 and we are some of the members of Pakistan Bar,
16:59 you are right, we are members, we have written a letter to our Vice Chairman,
17:03 that you have called for a meeting of the Executive of 5th April,
17:07 you should call for a meeting of the entire Pakistan Bar,
17:09 so that this matter can be brought forward more quickly, so that there can be a debate on this.
17:12 Sir, till 5th April, I don't know where Pakistan will go,
17:15 where the issue will go,
17:17 Pakistan Bar Council, which is the biggest council,
17:19 will it remain a big council?
17:21 I am a member of that council,
17:23 but we are called a minority group there.
17:25 Today, we five or six people have sent a letter to Pakistan Bar,
17:28 that you should not call for a meeting of the entire Pakistan Executive,
17:31 you should call for a meeting of all of us,
17:33 and we should also be heard, we should also be given a chance to speak,
17:35 because this is a matter of all of us, we need to unite here.
17:38 You see, today, the letter to the Chief Justice,
17:41 they have sent it to the wrong forum,
17:43 you are absolutely right, Mr. Kashif,
17:45 you said that they have sent this letter to the Supreme Judicial Council,
17:48 that the Code of Conduct is on the judges,
17:50 that if this is happening to us, what can we do to rectify it?
17:53 Please make it a part of the Code of Conduct,
17:56 because making the Code of Conduct is the job of the Supreme Judicial Council.
17:59 This is not a matter of the judge's calculation,
18:02 this is a matter of what should be the action of the judges,
18:05 if this happens to them,
18:07 if pressure is put on them, if pressure is put on their relatives.
18:10 The things that are written in it,
18:12 you should concentrate on that,
18:14 that instead of X, you wrote here, you wrote there,
18:16 this should not happen,
18:18 the thing should be that what is written in it,
18:20 is it true, if it is true, then you should take action.
18:23 Then you tell me, what I was saying,
18:25 what is inquiry on that, make a commission of inquiry,
18:28 so till today, the Hamoodar-E-Iman Commission was there,
18:30 I have not seen its report, you may have seen it.
18:32 Sir, in the open court, in the full court, I say,
18:34 the full court should sit open,
18:36 open hearing.
18:38 You remember, Mr. Kashif, it is not such an old thing,
18:40 the case of Azgar Khan, the case of Azgar Khan,
18:42 that is a reported case, that is 10 years old,
18:44 of 2013, in that, see,
18:46 the points were not pointed out,
18:48 how those things happened in the elections,
18:50 and what the intelligence agencies did,
18:52 who gave money to whom,
18:54 that is a reported case in our record.
18:56 If at that time, it would have been rectified,
18:58 and interference would have been stopped,
19:00 or it is the case of Sindh High Court Bar,
19:02 you would have seen in that,
19:04 then today, we would not have reached this situation.
19:06 They are writing, the judges, what should they do?
19:08 They themselves are saying, we met the Chief Justice of that time,
19:10 met here, met them,
19:12 but no one listened to them.
19:14 Today, they are writing, when their sisters are getting up,
19:16 of some judge,
19:18 when they reach home,
19:20 then pressure is put on them,
19:22 and this is all,
19:24 these are the judges of the High Court,
19:26 whom we are talking about,
19:28 the rest, we keep listening,
19:30 that is also in Islamabad,
19:32 and they all have accepted, that it is okay,
19:34 it has to happen with them.
19:36 In this country, this, ask Mr. Bhatti,
19:38 in our country, it has been accepted,
19:40 that sometimes, they will take the children,
19:42 sometimes, they will take the kids,
19:44 sometimes, someone else, this has been made,
19:46 okay, this should not happen,
19:48 rule of law, with judges?
19:50 First of all, Kashif,
19:52 they should be greeted,
19:54 their bravery, their courage,
19:56 to come together and raise a problem,
19:58 they should not become Justice Munir,
20:00 who has a need for opinion,
20:02 they should not become Justice Qayyum,
20:04 that they have given some punishments to someone,
20:06 they should not become Judge Arshad Malik,
20:08 and the second thing is,
20:10 this is Faiz Issa Qazi's test,
20:12 the test of the Supreme Court,
20:14 Faiz Issa Qazi,
20:16 who is correcting the mistakes of Pakistan,
20:18 of 75 years of history,
20:20 whether it is Bhutto Sahib's case,
20:22 or Parvez Musharraf Sahib's case,
20:24 or the case of Faizabad protest,
20:26 or Tahayat Naili's case,
20:28 or the case of Shaukat Siddiqui,
20:30 in the past, Alhamdulillah,
20:32 he was correcting those mistakes,
20:34 so now, one mistake has come in front of him,
20:36 and he is correcting it,
20:38 someone write it down,
20:40 and bring it,
20:42 now it is your test,
20:44 and your test of your house,
20:46 and your children,
20:48 and the second thing is,
20:50 Chief Justice Amar Farooq's conduct,
20:52 Tariq Ibn Sahib said,
20:54 that he was listening to 120 requests,
20:56 and he tried a lot,
20:58 but he was not listening,
21:00 so he said, leave that,
21:02 but this is a political thing,
21:04 and our justice is just like a father figure,
21:06 and he complained for the first time,
21:08 and for the second time,
21:10 and for the third time,
21:12 he asked to run the case,
21:14 and for the fourth time,
21:16 he asked to make a full court,
21:18 and for the fifth time,
21:20 he called the session judge,
21:22 and confirmed,
21:24 and made the OSD,
21:26 and called him back,
21:28 and transferred him to Punjab,
21:30 but not on him,
21:32 and he said,
21:34 we have a guarantee,
21:36 and people will see,
21:38 that Yasmeen Rashid is happy,
21:40 and this is a matter of free court,
21:42 and this investigation should be necessary,
21:44 and it should reach to a logical conclusion,
21:46 and now you think,
21:48 that you should go in a broader picture,
21:50 when the law breaks,
21:52 when the human rights are at stake,
21:54 when the four walls are at stake,
21:56 when justice is not given,
21:58 when we fall in it,
22:00 where does the common citizen go?
22:02 To the court.
22:04 And where has he gone?
22:06 To the next court.
22:08 Imagine,
22:10 you make a request,
22:12 and my man is not satisfied,
22:14 and the judge says,
22:16 no problem,
22:18 I am also not satisfied.
22:20 Now what are they saying?
22:22 They are saying,
22:24 we are also not safe,
22:26 our relatives are also not safe,
22:28 I have seen all the lights,
22:30 and I mean,
22:32 the people who were supposed to be safe,
22:34 are not safe,
22:36 and the lower judiciary,
22:38 may Allah protect them.
22:40 Mr. Zubairi,
22:42 open court hearing is the solution?
22:44 Will this matter go to court?
22:46 These are serious allegations.
22:48 Sir, I understand.
22:50 Where will it go?
22:52 It should be in open court,
22:54 because these allegations have been made,
22:56 and I say that these allegations are true.
22:58 People say that this is an acquisition,
23:00 because naturally,
23:02 until it is proven,
23:04 in our law,
23:06 you will call it allegations,
23:08 but I think this is a chart sheet,
23:10 and this is absolutely correct.
23:12 The things that are happening,
23:14 the judges have taken this constitutional oath,
23:16 they have said this,
23:18 and they have written,
23:20 they have given references,
23:22 what has happened to their people,
23:24 what is happening to these judges,
23:26 and we are seeing what is happening in the last two years,
23:28 what happened in the elections,
23:30 the kind of government that has been formed,
23:32 we have seen this too,
23:34 that you are ruling form 47.
23:36 So, see all these things,
23:38 and the biggest thing is,
23:40 free justice.
23:42 If these things are happening,
23:44 then our judiciary is not free.
23:46 Who understands this better than the Chief Justice,
23:48 who has himself gone through this,
23:50 what happened to him.
23:52 He was standing with them,
23:54 in their struggle,
23:56 when they were being tried.
23:58 Where did all those people go,
24:00 who were saying that they will lock the Chief Justice,
24:02 although the case of Faiz-e-Ishaq Qazi
24:04 seemed genuine,
24:06 it was right, it was debatable,
24:08 it was his family,
24:10 and his family was the main source of income,
24:12 so where did those people go,
24:14 who were saying that they will lock him,
24:16 that there is an attack on freedom of justice,
24:18 the minister of interior was not there.
24:20 He was there,
24:22 and he was saying that,
24:24 my cousin, Siddiqui,
24:26 no one should speak about him,
24:28 all these are new judges,
24:30 Mohsin Atta Khan, all the others are new judges,
24:32 we will talk about the political arguments later.
24:34 I am not talking about the political arguments,
24:36 I just wanted to ask Irfan Siddiqui,
24:38 that you are close to Nawaz Shiv,
24:40 every 24 hours,
24:42 should we ever tell him to speak on time?
24:44 See Kashif,
24:46 what to do now?
24:48 We should not sidestep,
24:50 the forum is wrong, the company is wrong.
24:52 We have come to the point that
24:54 there are serious allegations,
24:56 there should be an inquiry,
24:58 it should be at the highest level,
25:00 it should be on Chief Justice's initiative.
25:02 How will you prove it?
25:04 Now the evidence will be brought,
25:06 and you can see that
25:08 the allegations are general allegations.
25:10 They are not general,
25:12 they are very specific allegations.
25:14 There are specific allegations,
25:16 if you see the case of Shaukat Aziz,
25:18 the specific personality was pointed out,
25:20 DGC was also pointed out,
25:22 the sector commander was also pointed out,
25:24 in this case,
25:26 except for this case,
25:28 no personality was mentioned.
25:30 Now let's come to the second thing.
25:32 What else is there?
25:34 The cameras coming out of the Lighting vendor,
25:36 are they saying that they have put an electrician?
25:38 No, you tell me,
25:40 if they have brought their brother-in-law,
25:42 if they have brought their brother-in-law,
25:44 then what are they saying?
25:46 They are saying that the kids will die.
25:48 No, no, look, the thing is,
25:50 if they have made specific allegations,
25:52 these are their videos.
25:54 No, no, look, listen for a second,
25:56 the allegations have come,
25:58 now the allegations are serious,
26:00 they have said about their Chief Justice,
26:02 Chief Justice has gone to Pakistan,
26:04 so give them a way,
26:06 now it is not that we will sit and decide today,
26:08 whatever they have said.
26:10 Now let's come to the second thing,
26:12 the whole system of Pakistan,
26:14 which has been going on for 2-2.5 years,
26:16 I am going to bifurcate their judgments.
26:18 Sir, leave the judgments,
26:20 it is right or wrong, leave it.
26:22 If it is a wrong judgment,
26:24 then is it right to put cameras in someone's house?
26:26 No, no, the thing is,
26:28 if you want to talk about pressurizing,
26:30 the first judgment came in the Supreme Court,
26:32 that the Supreme Court said
26:34 that the ruling of the Speaker is wrong,
26:36 what did you think,
26:38 was the ruling of the Speaker right or wrong?
26:40 No, no, the ruling of the Speaker is wrong,
26:42 the ruling of the Speaker is right or wrong.
26:44 Sir, which side are you going?
26:46 Those are different issues.
26:48 Now you are making this issue a big issue,
26:50 whether the decision is right or wrong,
26:52 it is a big issue,
26:54 putting pressure on someone,
26:56 putting cameras, kidnapping people,
26:58 I will tell you,
27:00 now the cases will also come,
27:02 which case was it that the pressure came in?
27:04 No, no, you are telling me,
27:06 it is written in it,
27:08 that apart from the case of Tarian,
27:10 apart from that,
27:12 has any other case been pointed out?
27:14 Tell me one case,
27:16 and that is also their internal difference,
27:18 that if the Chief Justice has an issue with two judges,
27:20 one says it is maintainable,
27:22 two say it is not maintainable,
27:24 so that is his internal issue,
27:26 apart from that,
27:28 no, on whom?
27:30 Judges.
27:32 They put this decision on the website of two judges,
27:34 they made a new website,
27:36 no, no, when it was put,
27:38 and after that, if it was removed,
27:40 then who removed it?
27:42 If the Chief Justice has removed it,
27:44 then how can the Chief Justice be presumed
27:46 that there was pressure on him to remove this decision?
27:48 He is telling his own, it is on me,
27:50 he did not say that it was on him.
27:52 No, no, if he had not put it,
27:54 then the matter would have been understood.
27:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
27:58 I have to take a break.
28:00 I think you should take this issue to someone else.
28:02 The real issue is that the decision is right,
28:04 it should not be, it should be an action.
28:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
28:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
29:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
30:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
31:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
32:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
33:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
34:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
35:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:24 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:26 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:28 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:30 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:32 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:34 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:36 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:38 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:40 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:42 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:44 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:46 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:48 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:50 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:52 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:54 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:56 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
36:58 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:00 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:02 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:04 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:06 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:08 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:10 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:12 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:14 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:16 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:18 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:20 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:22 I want to say something about Mr. Zubairi,
37:24 Break.
37:25 Break.