Sunderland AFC legend Sir Bob Murray speaks to Sunderland Echo reporter Tony Gillan about his life and career
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00:00 The book is 400 pages and it's 150,000 words.
00:04 It's quite a big document.
00:06 - I've read it.
00:07 - And you know, the type print's quite small.
00:11 And you know, everybody's really pleased with the book
00:16 on every front.
00:17 So it's been quite a long and emotional journey.
00:21 - Well your life got off to a disastrous start.
00:23 You were born in Newcastle.
00:25 - That's right.
00:26 I only actually stayed a day, 'cause I didn't like it.
00:29 I was there one night.
00:31 But it is on my birth certificate, Tony.
00:34 And I try to hide it.
00:35 But that's a fact.
00:38 My mum was in concert and she got to Newcastle General
00:42 for me to arrive in this world.
00:44 But she does tell me that she only stayed a night.
00:49 - Good for her.
00:52 And moving on a few years now,
00:54 you've basically hit a skid and you're at it.
00:58 - I was bullied.
00:59 - You were quite in the low end when you left school.
01:02 You were bullied and there was a few issues
01:03 and you didn't do that well educated.
01:05 So it's fair to say it wasn't great.
01:08 But in the fullness of time,
01:10 was that somehow in the making of you?
01:12 - Yeah, I mean, I was born in 1946
01:16 and that was the year the war finished.
01:18 Second World War.
01:20 And there was twice as many children born that year
01:23 than any other year, normally.
01:27 So being in concert,
01:30 the only place I was gonna work was Concert Iron Company,
01:33 which employed 8,000 people.
01:35 There was nothing else other than steelworks.
01:38 So I was gonna go there to work.
01:40 I didn't know doing what.
01:42 And I was very bad at school.
01:44 I had one exam and I turned up
01:48 to Concert Iron Company like you do,
01:50 saying, "Where do I work?"
01:53 And they said, "Come back in a year."
01:56 And I was born in a two-down council house,
02:00 which I'm very proud of.
02:02 And I was a burden on my family.
02:05 So I threw myself into education
02:08 because I'm useless with my hands.
02:10 I was born into a manual town
02:13 where everybody worked with their hands.
02:15 And I was absolutely useless.
02:17 So that was a life changer for me.
02:21 And after a year, I got a job as an office boy
02:26 and then I continued to study deal-releasing part-time.
02:30 And that's what turned my life around was education.
02:34 - You dragged yourself up.
02:35 But I'm afraid you didn't like school.
02:39 You didn't like- - No, I hated it.
02:40 - You hated it.
02:42 But you had good parents though.
02:44 - Yes, I had great parents.
02:46 My dad was a coal miner
02:48 and he went down to Sillsworth Pit when he was 14
02:51 and he didn't like it.
02:52 So he moved to Constantinople, got a job above ground.
02:56 And that's where I was born.
02:58 But I've always been Sunlander.
03:00 - Right.
03:03 So you passed with one O-level, quite tellingly in maths.
03:08 - Yeah.
03:09 - And you've got a gift for figures.
03:09 - I'm sure that was because I bet none of the horses.
03:12 (laughing)
03:13 Or the league tables.
03:16 - Yeah.
03:17 - Or the top 20.
03:19 - But you've always had a head for figures.
03:21 - Yeah.
03:22 - It's just more natural.
03:22 - If you were not so good at maths,
03:26 where would you be now?
03:27 - Well, there's been many lucky turns in my life.
03:32 You know, where I say if only,
03:34 if I hadn't have been here, I hadn't have been there.
03:37 There's many times that I think to myself,
03:40 I've been quite lucky in life.
03:42 But there again, I'm not that bright
03:44 and I have to work at things.
03:47 You know, I'm not super clever.
03:49 You know, I'm not a very good front man.
03:51 I have to put a lot of effort in.
03:54 So I'm very tenacious.
03:56 I don't know where I get it from, Tony.
03:58 But I'm very tenacious.
03:59 So, you know, I'm a hundred percent son of blood.
04:04 - Yeah.
04:05 - You know, my mum's from Hortonley Spring
04:09 and I'm an only one.
04:11 So I've got nobody to compare against.
04:13 But I'm very determined, like this place here, Tony.
04:16 I mean, I'd left the club and I wanted to do this
04:19 and it cost 20 million pound to build this.
04:22 And I wanted to do it.
04:23 It wasn't to get a knighthood 'cause I had one already
04:26 and I had Ella Short against me.
04:28 And the club's two relegations,
04:30 but we still did it together.
04:33 You know, that's for some reason, Tony, I'm very tenacious.
04:36 Like Tim Rice is and he is,
04:38 he's like a whisper, a breeze.
04:41 But you know, like I am.
04:44 I'm determined to do it and I put everything into it.
04:48 - Yes.
04:50 Now, obviously you mainly run under here for your time
04:55 at Sunderland.
04:56 - Yeah.
04:56 - First as a director, then chairman,
04:58 and majority shareholder.
05:00 And there are many, many questions I could ask you,
05:02 but what's your biggest regret during your time as chairman?
05:07 What do you wish you'd done or not done?
05:09 - Well, I think there's a big one, there's a few.
05:12 That point at Mountain Cross being I shouldn't have done.
05:16 That was a weakness.
05:17 I should have called it Sunderland City and I didn't.
05:20 And one certainly that got wrong, I got Howard Wilkinson.
05:24 So when I say I'd do it all again, I wouldn't point him.
05:26 (laughing)
05:28 - I was going to mention that, yeah.
05:30 So you wouldn't quite do it all again.
05:33 - I wouldn't quite do it all again.
05:35 - And then soon as that-
05:36 - I think the thing is, you know,
05:37 that I've been chairman for 20 years
05:39 and I would definitely do that again,
05:41 despite the highs and some lows, difficult times.
05:46 But you're not going to be in football for 20 years
05:49 and be very popular all the time.
05:51 - Yeah, I used to sit there as merely a fan
05:54 and fully aware of all of the grief you were getting,
05:58 I mean, and you ended up by saying
06:00 you never made any money out of the club.
06:02 - No, I was a decent player.
06:03 - So someone like that, I just think,
06:04 "Well, why did he put himself through all that?"
06:06 - Yeah, well, you have to want to do what you say.
06:08 Yes, I do like helping people.
06:10 I do, you know, when I see 46,000 in the stadium on Saturday
06:15 after having 12 years of neglect with Short and others,
06:19 when the club's being just left, you know, not loved.
06:23 And I see 46,000, I see all the women and children
06:27 in that field, and it absolutely fills me up
06:30 because I took a club over that was getting 14,000, Tony.
06:35 And that's the club that we've got now,
06:37 and that gives me more sort of payback than anything.
06:43 - So that's above the promotions and the ethic of funding.
06:46 - Yeah, I think that's what I built it for.
06:48 You know, that's what I built it for.
06:51 And, you know, even when I came out after Nile,
06:56 you know, I've been working with Stadium Park
06:59 and other things, you know,
07:00 we put the Olympic pool here,
07:02 which is the only one between Leeds,
07:04 and I think we've introduced a four-star Hilton to the city.
07:08 You know, I was behind the engineering of that,
07:12 and of course I've got this very special place here
07:14 as well, but, you know, it's something I've wanted to do.
07:21 I didn't do it for money.
07:23 I know it sounds strange, but I wanted to do it.
07:27 - It does sound strange to a lot of people.
07:29 - I do, but that sounds like money to me.
07:32 - Yeah, indeed.
07:33 - Do you know, I think I've been very lucky in life,
07:36 and if I can give a little bit back,
07:38 particularly to the North East,
07:40 then that's where my focus is.
07:42 I don't do charity work.
07:43 I'm very generous around places,
07:46 but I don't do charity work anywhere else
07:48 than the North East, in meaningful terms.
07:52 Sadly, Tony, I never thought I'd build a building
07:58 where people come in and continuously get war.
08:00 I never thought that.
08:01 I find that very sad.
08:03 - Now, I'll specifically ask you now about
08:08 Premier Passions.
08:09 I mean, it certainly blurs the trail.
08:11 Everybody seems to be joining in.
08:12 - Yeah, well, let's take credit for that,
08:15 'cause it was BBC.
08:16 I mean, I used to go up to London,
08:19 and that well-known, the taxi,
08:22 the Cockney Taxi Driver's City wouldn't involve Mary.
08:25 It wouldn't involve Mary, which meant the hurry.
08:27 And that was how, I mean, there's no way you could go
08:30 without being seen, and it was the best programme.
08:33 - Did you enjoy being Eddie Ganster?
08:36 - I don't mind it.
08:38 I've got a lot of public attention now,
08:39 but it goes with the territory.
08:42 You just gotta handle it, and you enjoy it, yeah.
08:45 - And you weren't, did you get used to the camera,
08:48 or did it unnerve you?
08:49 - Not really.
08:50 I've got clean hands.
08:52 I don't, I think Leslie said,
08:54 "You know, what have we got to hide here?
08:56 "You know, is there anything we shouldn't,
08:58 "anything we should be ashamed of?"
09:00 No, there wasn't.
09:02 A very interesting time, because we're building a ground,
09:05 closing the ground, trying to keep up.
09:08 You know, it was a really good company,
09:11 and I think it's been the best programme.
09:13 I think it's all about showbiz now,
09:17 and things like that, you know.
09:19 It's a genuine programme.
09:20 It's a genuine programme about, you know.
09:24 - And it was, you know, just complete access to everything,
09:30 the changing rooms, the boardroom.
09:32 - There was no editorial thing, you know.
09:35 - Did you ever wish there was?
09:36 - No, no.
09:37 Like I said, I'd do it all again.
09:39 (laughing)
09:42 - Tipsy.
09:43 Now, obviously a big part of that,
09:46 a big part of your life, really,
09:48 not just Premier Partners, was Peter Rigged.
09:51 And it seemed to me, at the time,
09:56 you were pretty big-knit with him.
09:58 - We are.
09:59 - You got on very well, certainly.
09:59 - Well, after the first sort of induction year, yeah,
10:03 'cause Peter had a bad reputation coming from Man City.
10:08 With Peter Swales, he was very combative.
10:11 So Peter, we'd been out of the game for quite a long time.
10:16 So after the sort of Dave Kelly incident
10:21 and things like that, we got quite close.
10:24 And we worked very hard in our relationship.
10:27 You know, I'd take Peter out for a meal in the arm
10:30 nearly every week.
10:31 And, you know, I believe he either
10:34 backed the man or sacked the man.
10:36 - Yeah.
10:37 You say the David Kelly incident,
10:38 you just made him use a flop sign in it, quite expensive.
10:41 - Well, no, he signed them without the money.
10:43 - Oh, I see.
10:44 - He told the press he was signing them
10:47 and we didn't have the money to pay for them.
10:49 (laughing)
10:50 Which isn't a good thing to do, really.
10:53 - I would imagine not.
10:54 And--
10:56 - But he was useless.
10:59 - I told you that's controversial to you.
11:01 We all saw it.
11:02 (laughing)
11:03 - I saw him shoot a goal at Newcastle once.
11:05 - But do you have a relationship with Peter these days?
11:11 - Yeah, but, you know, if we see each other,
11:14 I saw him at Wigan away last year
11:16 and we had a drink, as you would with Peter.
11:20 - Yeah.
11:21 (laughing)
11:22 Right.
11:23 - So, yeah, he was with Adrian Heath.
11:27 So if I saw him somewhere, I would say hello.
11:31 - Yeah.
11:32 You can get on, you're cordial still.
11:34 - Sorry?
11:34 - You're still cordial with him.
11:35 - Oh, yeah, yeah, there's nothing.
11:37 You know, we had a bottle of champagne when he left,
11:40 but it's really sad the way he went, you know.
11:42 - Yeah.
11:44 - It's really, really bad.
11:46 That was the lowest point ever, I think.
11:47 - Sure.
11:49 You wouldn't say it was a mistake getting rid of him,
11:51 and it was all--
11:52 - No doubt, Peter had spent--
11:53 - You think it was a mistake, then?
11:54 - No, Peter had spent tens of millions of pounds
11:57 on players and contracts, which is quite well documented.
12:01 There's a number of voices that talk,
12:03 and so it was just, it was bad at the end
12:05 as it was good at the beginning.
12:07 - Now, something else personal,
12:11 completely outside of football, really.
12:13 You narrowly escaped death in 1983, you and your wife Sue.
12:20 - Yeah.
12:22 - The Silly Island helicopter crash,
12:26 just for the benefit of our readers,
12:29 20 people were killed, 65.
12:33 - At least 20, I think.
12:35 - That did a bit of Googling earlier.
12:37 - Okay, 20.
12:38 - The youngest victim was five, tremendous.
12:40 - Yeah.
12:41 - So tell me about your experience.
12:42 - We always went to Cornwall on holiday every year,
12:46 North Cornwall, and then we discovered the Silly Isles,
12:50 an island called Tresco.
12:51 So we decided to have a two-cent holiday,
12:54 so we had a holiday in North Cornwall,
12:57 drove down to Penzance, and there was a heliport there,
13:00 and it's British Airways owned,
13:02 and the massive helicopters, they sit about 28 people.
13:06 And it was a Saturday, and on a Saturday,
13:09 that plane goes into Tresco,
13:12 it's the only day of the week it does.
13:13 Every other day it goes into St. Mary's,
13:16 and we were going to Tresco.
13:18 So it was June, and it was hazy,
13:21 and they said, "There's not gonna be another flight today,
13:25 "but there's two seats left on this one
13:28 "to go to St. Mary's."
13:30 And it was a Saturday morning,
13:32 and we looked at each other,
13:33 and we decided not to get on that plane,
13:36 and that was the one that went down.
13:38 So we went for the ferry, and we got the ferry there,
13:40 which is like a long time, it's like four hours,
13:43 and it's not a nice journey.
13:45 And we got to St. Mary's, transferred to Tresco,
13:47 and the floodlights were all there,
13:49 and the phone was ringing, "Were we dead or not?"
13:53 And that's us with the look.
13:54 - Who ran you?
13:56 - All kinds of friends and relations
13:57 to see if we were alive.
13:59 - And?
14:01 - It was a year before I got involved in the club.
14:04 - You're 83, yeah?
14:05 So how often do you dwell on this?
14:07 - Well, I got the helicopter back,
14:10 because I thought if I didn't,
14:11 I'd never get on another plane.
14:13 But I've never been in a helicopter since.
14:15 - I've been, right.
14:17 - And to...
14:18 Oh.
14:20 How often do you think about that, though?
14:24 Your mind must go back regularly.
14:26 - I think this is the book, Tony, actually,
14:28 it's quite a personal problem,
14:29 and before, it's brought back so many bad things,
14:33 as well as good things.
14:35 Things that are passed and locked and buried,
14:38 it's brought them all back.
14:40 And it's been a little bit disturbing,
14:46 because everything in my life's never been perfect.
14:49 You know, I've ups and downs like everybody else.
14:52 You know, I've got failures, and I've got anxiety,
14:55 and I've got tests and things like that.
14:57 I'm only human.
14:58 And so it's brought back quite a few things.
15:02 - You mention your anxieties more than once in the book.
15:05 - Yeah.
15:06 - Does that still affect you?
15:07 - A little bit, but nothing like when I was chairman here.
15:11 (Tony laughs)
15:12 I mean, you know, I'd ask,
15:14 "What's the pressure on a chairman
15:15 "when the chairman's got the pressure?"
15:17 You know, you might have a great board of directors,
15:20 but you've got the pressure.
15:22 The book stops with you.
15:24 And of course, in my kitchen business,
15:29 we control it and whatever,
15:31 but what happens on a Saturday like this Saturday
15:33 with that referee, you can't legislate for, you know?
15:37 - Right.
15:38 - You know, you can't legislate for things like that.
15:42 - The anxiety's eased since you step out of the chair.
15:44 - Oh yeah, yeah.
15:45 I mean, I think I'm good.
15:46 You know, I've been there 17 years now.
15:49 I think if I'd stayed, I wouldn't be here for certain.
15:52 - Right.
15:53 - I think there's no chance I'd be here.
15:54 - And then that much anxiety.
15:56 - Well, I just think the lifestyle and the whole thing,
15:59 it's all consuming being chairman of a club as great as this.
16:04 It is all consuming.
16:06 - Yeah.
16:07 - If you mean it, like Kural does.
16:10 I'm sure I was short to give a what,
16:13 how it's used.
16:14 - Yeah, I know what you're referring to.
16:17 So anyway, you've pulled off massive projects.
16:21 We're sitting in one of them.
16:23 There's Began, the Foundation, the Academy,
16:25 and of course the stadium of night.
16:27 So you've got no intention of retiring from what I'm covering?
16:31 - Not from here.
16:32 I want to stay here with the Foundation.
16:35 It's been through, it's the fifth year.
16:38 This year we hope to make a profit for the first time ever.
16:41 - Right.
16:42 - And it's needed more than ever, Tony.
16:46 - Yes.
16:47 - It's had COVID, we've got mental issues,
16:49 we've got getting bloody warm, people talking to each other.
16:53 We've got 48 classes running here, suicides.
16:57 We've got 90 expelled students here
17:00 where we're getting tremendous results.
17:03 It's an awesome place.
17:05 - It's got nothing on, correct me if I'm wrong,
17:08 but you weren't keen on concerts in the stadium?
17:12 - No, no, no.
17:14 When I built the stadium, you see,
17:16 Newcastle is a bit of a car bungle.
17:19 John Hall built four different stands, right?
17:22 This is a European four-star stadium.
17:26 And when I built this, I put the two tunnels in, right?
17:31 I put the two tunnels in for this.
17:33 And obviously, Sunderland will always get
17:36 the pop concerts here against Newcastle.
17:39 They will always do that because it is so designed for it.
17:44 You know, you can have fire engines in the stadium.
17:48 - Yeah, that's specifically why there's a tunnel.
17:50 - And it's uniform.
17:52 And obviously, Curl's got plans for the stadium
17:55 in due course.
17:56 - And something else, yeah,
18:00 it's what you refute in the book quite convincingly,
18:04 actually, is the fact that the extension
18:07 that went up on the North Stand.
18:08 - Yeah.
18:09 - I think he really wasn't happy
18:12 that you'd spent a few million on that.
18:14 - No, but I wasn't happy that he'd spent it
18:16 on Fred, Guy, Nunes and Flo.
18:18 - Yeah.
18:19 - So, you know, because he wasn't investing very well,
18:20 was he?
18:21 - Yeah, I would think.
18:22 - So, you know, so I think that's,
18:24 when I see the first game of the season
18:27 against Ipswich, and it's on Sky,
18:29 like Saturday was on Sky,