Phil Smith speaks to Sunderland AFC Women head coach Mel Reay in a special episode of The Roar podcast
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00:00 Hi there, Phil here and welcome to a very special edition of the RAW Podcast. It's
00:04 been a busy summer behind the scenes for Sunland Women. Most of you will know the background
00:08 to their story by now, the Super League history and the double relegation at the hands of
00:12 the FA. It's been a steady but impressive rebuild from there and ahead of their third
00:16 championship campaign there have been some major changes. The squad has a very different
00:20 look to it and there's a new hybrid playing model in place. So 11 days out from the start
00:24 of the season I sat down with head coach Mel Ray to get the inside track on those changes
00:29 and to look ahead to the new season and outline what we can expect.
00:36 (music)
00:43 (music)
00:50 (music)
00:57 (music)
01:04 So Mel, we're 11 days out from the start of the Women's Championship season, pre-season
01:10 finished a couple of days ago. Been doing this job a lot of years, no head coach is
01:14 ever 100% happy as head of the start of the new season but how generally do you feel you're
01:19 shaping up? Yeah, I think we're getting there. Still like a few more through the door before
01:23 the window shuts and we kick off the season but the players who we've brought in are hopefully
01:30 going to add some real value to the team and I think they've shown that over the last few
01:33 games that we've played as well. You seem to have picked quite a tough pre-season, so
01:37 you played Celtic, you played Glasgow City who for anyone who doesn't know they're one
01:40 of the big Scottish teams, Nottingham Forest, Newcastle, Blackburn, so you seem to have
01:45 deliberately picked a tricky schedule for the players. Yeah, I think that's the whole
01:50 point of having a well prepared pre-season, you don't want to go into games having high
01:55 scorelines because for me as a coach you don't really learn a lot about your players in them
01:59 kind of games. So always going up to Scotland is going to be tricky, especially against
02:04 a championship, the Champions League teams have got a lot of experience, a lot of Scottish
02:10 internationals within that camp. The Celtic game was really competitive, we should have
02:14 won the game to be honest, the chances that we'd created, so again that was a good challenge.
02:18 We obviously travelled to Nottingham Forest and had a defeat which learnt a lot about
02:25 the squad in terms of adversity we need to overcome and they're really good learners,
02:31 they want to understand why, they're very curious about things that we do, they ask
02:36 good questions, so losing games is a way to learn and we'd rather do that in pre-season
02:42 than when the season starts. Glasgow, going into the last week of the games was we had
02:48 Glasgow, Newcastle and then, which did we play? Glasgow, Newcastle and Blackburn, so
02:58 that week was designed to replicate the Conte Cup week when the season starts, like the
03:03 three game week, some of them played three 90 minutes, but against the Glasgow we had
03:08 to rotate the squad knowing that we wanted to put a really strong XI out against Newcastle
03:14 as well in front of our home fans. So yeah, it's been a tough pre-season, it's been good
03:21 in terms of we've learnt a lot, we've been able to start embedding things that we want
03:27 to see when the season goes ahead, so yeah it's been tough but certainly worthwhile.
03:32 I'm contractually obliged to ask you about a Derby win, I'm afraid. Now I know a Derby
03:36 is in a way more for the fans aren't it, especially the wins, but the energy of a packed Everton,
03:41 huge crowd, I'm sure new players will have known that they'll have wanted to make an
03:45 impression in front of new fans in an environment like that. That must have been a really positive
03:49 experience to come out on the right side of it.
03:51 It was, and like you say, it was the first glimpse of our home supporters getting to
03:55 see the new players and the new players that we've brought in have added real experience
04:00 to the team and putting them real experienced players on the pitch in a game like that was
04:04 really important just to see if they could deliver and they certainly did. I thought
04:10 we were excellent and watching the game back it could have been a lot more as well.
04:14 Just rolling back a little bit to the end of the last season, this summer, the club's
04:17 obviously moved to a hybrid model, so you've handed out quite a few professional contracts,
04:21 you've still got some part-time players. I wonder if you could just give us a little
04:24 bit of insight into why that was the right move for Sunderland at this time and also
04:29 how that's changed things over the summer and moving into the season, how it actually
04:32 changes what you're doing day-to-day and what the players are doing day-to-day as well.
04:35 I think obviously with the game growing and a lot of teams in our league already being
04:40 professional, we were quite behind where the teams were. In an ideal world, yes, we would
04:46 all like to be fully professional, players included, but it's a gradual process and
04:53 it's all about sustainability and the hybrid model has allowed a lot of the players to
04:58 go full-time, but it's also allowed a lot of them to still access every session but
05:05 just not be classed as that full-time footballer, to work around the sessions. It's been really
05:10 positive, it's worked out better than I thought it was going to. We've got big numbers in
05:16 these sessions and it feels like we've got a full-time squad at this moment in time.
05:22 So far, so good.
05:23 It's always totally understandable people will always say there's other professional
05:27 teams in the league, why can't Sunderland be professional now? I know that's the end
05:31 goal and I'm sure you would like that to be now. Can you just talk through some of the
05:35 reasons why as a club you're not quite there yet? One of the obvious things for me watching
05:40 the team is you've got some really important senior players who, because of the way women's
05:44 football has been over a long period of time, they've got careers that they've built, really
05:48 important careers to them. Obviously the goal is for every women's footballer to be professional,
05:54 but I suppose there's reasons why you're not quite there yet.
05:57 I think there's probably a lot of reasons that I probably can't answer either in terms
06:02 of the financial side of it and generating income and revenue in order to have more money
06:08 kind of in our pot, so to speak, to then dish out again. But like you say, we've got certain
06:15 players who add real value to the team and we didn't want to lose them. They've still
06:22 got something to give and we felt like it was important to give them the opportunity
06:27 to still be part of it as well.
06:31 One of the consequences, I guess, of moving to that model, there has been a lot of change
06:33 over the summer. Now that's obviously the only reason, there's different factors for
06:37 every single player, but it has been quite a big summer in terms of turnover of players,
06:42 the squad has a bit of a different feel to it. Were you anticipating this level of change
06:47 or has some of it caught you by surprise as it's gone along? Can you just talk me through
06:50 a little bit how that process has gone over the summer?
06:54 We were disappointed with last season in terms of how it fizzled out and where we finished.
07:00 We want to win more games, we want to be more competitive, we want a better team and with
07:04 that there is casualties. Some people have to leave in order for new people to come in,
07:10 that's part and parcel of football. Some of them did hit us by surprise, like Dan Brown
07:17 relocating to Spain, that wasn't a football-based decision. I thought she did really well for
07:22 the last season as well, so little ones like that caught you by surprise. The players that
07:28 we've brought in are good people, they've got good championship experience or good international
07:34 experience and we just need to give them time to settle and to develop relationships with
07:39 a teammate in order to click because, like you say, there has been a lot of changes and
07:44 sometimes you need a little bit of time to gel as a team but they've fitted in great
07:49 and the future looks bright.
07:52 I suppose around maybe a month ago when the first list of departures was announced, there
07:57 was a bit of concern for understandable reasons. You mentioned Dan Brown there, who is such
08:01 a consistent performer, players like Emme Kelly, Abi Holmes, he was the core of your
08:06 team from last year. Talk to us a little bit through replacing those players and what you
08:11 think you've been able to bring into the club because I'm sure you could understand from
08:14 the outside there was a bit of anxiety when players that people are used to seeing every
08:18 week depart. Do you feel you've strengthened, do you feel you can move forward from here?
08:25 Just talk a little bit about that process of the new players you've brought in.
08:28 I definitely feel we've strengthened. Anyone who I've brought in has to be better than
08:34 what we've already got. We don't bring in mediocre players, these players can add real
08:39 value to the team in what we're trying to achieve. Quite senior players as well, which
08:48 I think is really important in terms of having good leaders. I think we lacked that last
08:52 season. Having leaders on the pitch to drive standards and drive the behaviours that we
08:58 want to see, I think all that helps with getting results. There has been a lot of change and
09:06 hopefully it's for the positives.
09:09 We talk about the development of the club, professionalism, hybrid. Now obviously one
09:14 of the reasons you want to get professionalism and it's really important is it opens up recruitment
09:17 opportunities doesn't it? Because for anyone listening who might not be aware, for quite
09:22 a long time you were recruiting purely from the North East weren't you? Because you had
09:25 to recruit players who wanted to be in the region. Now are we starting to see this summer
09:31 as well that you're starting to get new opportunities because you're able to offer these professional
09:36 contracts? Players who might not have been, for example last summer, might not have been
09:39 able to recruit.
09:40 I think everyone who we've brought in is from outside the region. The way women's football
09:48 is now in the level that we're at, full time opportunities are important and these players
09:54 have come because we're full time. We ain't recruiting players from outside the North
10:01 East on part time contracts, it just wasn't going to happen. The whole reason for the
10:07 hybrid as well is to give us the opportunities to have more accommodation on site, in and
10:12 around to house more players. Going at the right speed as well is important but the players
10:22 that we've brought in are excited to be here. They're excited by the vision of the football
10:27 club and what we want to achieve together.
10:29 Stakes go up this year, there's two relegation spots. The Championship is, I feel like over
10:36 the last couple of years it's been quite a volatile division. Teams sometimes can go
10:40 from very strong to losing a lot of players and vice versa, which is I guess some of that
10:44 financials that we've talked about and that stability which can impact teams. How are
10:48 you looking at the division this year, 11 days out?
10:51 I think there's been a lot of change. I think there's been a lot of changes in managers.
10:55 There's been a lot of movement between players in different clubs. A lot of things are behind
11:02 closed doors. I know our fans get frustrated when things are behind closed doors like it
11:06 was on Sunday, that wasn't our decision but teams do that to ensure that no one knows
11:11 what they're doing. So when that first game comes around we don't really know much about
11:14 the opposition. But if we showcase and shout out everything that we're doing we're just
11:19 enhancing what the opposition can see. London City have been quiet, they've got new management
11:29 and lost a lot of players. We'll just have to try and do some more digging behind the
11:36 scenes and see what we can find out. Until maybe the first couple of weeks I honestly
11:40 don't know how it's going to pan out in terms of a league structure. I think Charlton and
11:46 Birmingham look strong and should probably be up there come the end of the season if
11:51 I was to take a punt. They haven't lost many players and they've obviously improved their
11:56 squad so we'll just have to see how it goes. We're hoping to be a lot more competitive
12:02 this season than we were last for sure.
12:05 When we talk about it, I know it's difficult to publicly talk about expectations and a
12:09 lot of that is kept internally for obvious reasons, but when you look ahead to this season
12:14 is consolidating again in this division the aim or are you genuinely internally hoping
12:19 that with the signings you've made you can push on a little bit further?
12:22 I'd like to think we can push on. Absolutely we don't want to be in a relegation fight,
12:28 but again we just have to wait and see how the league pans out. It's important that we
12:34 get off to a good start. Every fixture is going to be difficult, we've got a lot of
12:38 travelling to do. I think we've got eight away trips, overnight stops, which is a lot.
12:45 Hopefully now with the model that we've got we can support the players better and they're
12:49 not going to be as fatigued going into games as they were last season.
12:53 One of the things that even people who don't follow the team really closely or follow the
12:57 club really closely will know is that Sunderland always has managed to produce really strong
13:01 young players. We talked a bit about the changes over the summer, obviously some players have
13:06 left and I'm sure some of those will have been disappointed for the club, but you have
13:09 managed to retain some really exciting young talent who will be a year down the line as
13:12 well. Obviously players like Katie Watson who we saw burst onto the scene last year
13:18 and show incredible talent and hopefully now she'll be stronger for what was a lot of positives
13:22 last year but also for the team in quite a difficult year as well.
13:25 They've got a year's experience under their belt and I think that's priceless at that
13:28 age. They're still not 18, they're still only 17 going into the second season in the
13:33 Championship, which not a lot of young players can say that. With that comes more expectation,
13:39 they need to be able to fight to get into the starting XI. Everyone wants to play, which
13:46 is great and that's a headache for me to try and select the best team for that week.
13:53 It's important that we still nurture them, we still manage their load. They are really
13:58 young players and we get their physical profile higher so they become more robust and they
14:03 don't break at a young age. I'm sure they'll have international camps along the course
14:11 of the season which again will add value to what they're doing and add more experience
14:14 to their boat.
14:16 One of the first things you said to me when you sat down was that you're not quite there
14:19 yet, you still want to get some more through the door. Where do you feel you're at with
14:23 you in terms of your squad depth and how hopeful are you that you'll maybe have some reinforcements
14:27 before the start of the season?
14:28 I'd like a couple more through the door to be honest. We've had lots of conversations
14:32 with lots and lots of players over the course of the season. Obviously you've seen some
14:36 come through the door, some didn't come through the door in that football but it's certainly
14:40 been a busy summer. Like you say, no manager is ever fully happy with their squad so I
14:47 don't know if we can get a couple more and I just think it provides that extra depth
14:50 and that extra competition for players.
14:52 One of the things I wanted to touch on was watching pre-season externally, one of the
14:57 best things was to see Kiera Ramshaw back on the pitch. Obviously, probably overuse
15:02 the word legend in football but I think in Kiera's case it's absolutely right isn't
15:06 it what she's been through at the club. How big is it, not just on the pitch but off
15:10 the pitch as well to have Kiera back involved because she had a really tough year last year
15:14 didn't she?
15:14 Yeah, she had a fixed season to be honest with two ruptured ankle ligaments, had them
15:18 reattached. To be honest, she's still quite not there in terms of where she thinks she
15:24 should be and where we think she should be. She's fighting to get her physical fitness
15:33 back and obviously when you've been out for so long that match sharpness is so important
15:36 as well so we'll continue to look after her and give her the exposure. She's doing
15:41 everything in training but she still gets a little bit of pain through her ankle so
15:45 we just need to be careful with her as well.
15:47 Someone like Kiera important, we talk about bringing in a lot of players and most of the
15:52 players this summer have come in from outside the region. Does it help you having someone
15:55 like Kiera and trying to give that impression of what Sunderland is and foster that identity
16:02 a bit and bring that group together? Because that must be one of the biggest challenges
16:06 when you have so much change is trying to get that team spirit together and build that
16:10 sort of togetherness ahead of the season.
16:12 Yeah, I think it's important you don't lose your identity in terms of what is Sunderland,
16:17 what does it mean to be a Sunderland player and Kiera kind of epitomises that. She's
16:23 our leader, she's the team captain and being in and around the new players and showing
16:29 them the ropes and telling them how it is. She's been terrific, she's always been
16:34 present off the pitch even when she was injured and everyone's been looking after her as
16:38 well which is nice and we just hope we can get her back to the levels that is required
16:43 to play in the Championship.
16:45 You and Kiera have a long history with this club now, through some unbelievable lows
16:50 and some huge highs recently as well. I just want to end really by getting your reflections
16:54 on the journey you've had with the club and where you place things now. Obviously,
17:00 everyone wants more, everyone wants to be further down the line. I know how ambitious
17:03 you are, you want to be a Super League manager and you want this club to be right up there.
17:06 I just want to get your general reflections on where you place the club at the moment.
17:11 I'm excited to take the club into another Championship season in terms of having fully
17:17 professional players at my disposal. I'm excited to see how much more we can compete,
17:25 how close we can get to the teams that are fully professional. Is there a bigger difference
17:29 still? Do we still need to push that a little bit harder? Like you say, we've all got
17:34 personal ambitions and I would love nothing more than taking this team up into the Super
17:41 League. Are we there yet? Probably not. Could it happen over the course of time?
17:47 Absolutely. We're just trying to make sure things are in place for us to get there eventually.
17:55 For anyone listening who's maybe not seeing a huge amount of son and women and thinking
18:00 about maybe coming down, watching a game, what would you say to them about what they
18:04 can expect from your team and what you're hoping to offer this season? Obviously, putting
18:10 into context what we've talked about, this is a journey with this club and that there
18:13 are some teams who are probably slightly further ahead with budget and professionalism and
18:17 things like that. How would you outline what you're hoping to put out there this year?
18:21 I think you're going to see a really close-knit group of players who've got each other's
18:24 backs more than anything now. They're really together and I hope that you can see that
18:30 through their performances. They want to win, they're hungry to win, they're going to
18:34 play to win. They've got that fighting and determination. I see it every day that they're
18:41 in here and they'll not stand for anything else. Hopefully they can see lots of wins
18:47 at Ebbleton and they can follow it like they do far away when we go away. There's still
18:52 red and white shirts in the stands and we need the fans at Ebbleton. You've seen it
18:57 on Wednesday when we played Newcastle, the team thrive on playing in front of an audience.
19:02 The more fans we can get at Ebbleton, the better.
19:05 11 days out. Nervous, excited, both, confident, anxious?
19:11 I'm excited. We're done with the games now but we've got two weeks to prepare the
19:16 team. We're taking them away this weekend on a team build. That'll be fun in games
19:21 and then we prepare for London City the following week. Keep ticking them over this week. It's
19:26 a bit of a deload week this week until we spike back up again next week. A lot of reflections,
19:31 a lot of chance to sit down and have one-to-ones with players and lay out the expectations
19:37 and how pre-season has gone for them and as a team. Then be ready to go for the following Sunday.
19:44 Mel, very best of luck.
19:45 Thank you very much.
19:47 [Music]
20:02 [Cheering]
20:05 [Music]