Joe Nicholson is joined by Craig Johns from the Teesside Gazette to preview Sunderland's Championship match against Middlesbrough at the Stadium of Light.
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00:37 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:42 We're back for another preview podcast and today we're going to be looking ahead to
00:46 Sunderland's championship match against Middlesbrough at the Stadium of Light on
00:51 Saturday. So to preview the game, joining myself, Joe Nicholson, we are joined by
00:56 Craig Johns from the Teesside Gazette. Craig, after a tricky start for Borough,
01:02 they come into this game on the back of three league wins in a row. So what's the feeling
01:07 at the club ahead of their trip to Wearside? I think naturally as you see it, three wins
01:12 in the league, four wins in all competitions. They're still in the Carabao Cup and doing well
01:17 in that. So this past kind of fortnight, starting with the Southampton win two weeks ago on Saturday,
01:24 has really started to lift the atmosphere around the club because a seven game
01:30 winless start of the season was not what anybody really had in mind when you consider the kind of
01:36 run that went on under Michael Carrick last season to me at the play-offs. In some ways,
01:41 we said at the time it was a bit of a missed opportunity for Middlesbrough then to not
01:45 cash in on that and go up. I think particularly when you look at the summer transfer window and
01:51 needing to sell Tubarak Pong, who scored 29 goals for them, and losing six loanees who combined in
01:58 the summer went for over £40 million. They lost over £50 million worth of talent in the summer.
02:05 I think really when you think about Middlesbrough's kind of poor start of this season,
02:09 it's that alone really that you consider and the fact that they did lose so much talent last season
02:16 and it was such a missed opportunity and not go up via the play-offs last season for Borough.
02:21 Yeah, you mentioned it there. A lot of players from last season, either who were on loan,
02:26 people like Cameron Archer and Ryan Giles have left or Tubarak Pong who was sold. They've lost
02:32 a lot of the key players that got them into the play-offs last season and brought in a lot of
02:36 new players. So, is it fair to say that Borough perhaps are weaker than last season?
02:41 I think so at the moment. I think it's definitely, as I say, I mean you're talking
02:46 £50 million worth of talent there left and only Tubarak Pong was Borough's actual player. So,
02:54 they got a little over £10 million for Tubarak Pong in selling him to Ajax. But,
02:59 you know, the likes of Ryan Giles who I think was joined second most assists in the Championship
03:04 last season. Cameron Archer who had a major impact and Aaron Ramsey as well, both coming in in
03:11 January from Aston Villa. They added so many goals and so much creativity to Middlesbrough's team
03:16 last season. But that's £40 million worth of talent that Middlesbrough haven't seen, the £40
03:21 million and therefore this summer they weren't able to invest that kind of money back into the
03:26 team. So, what we saw is very similar to kind of what Sunderland have been doing for a few years
03:32 now as Middlesbrough's focus in the summer transfer window was more on these kind of
03:37 younger players, untapped potential. They looked at a few under-21 teams from around England to
03:43 get a couple of players in. They looked further afield and abroad, brought in a few players from
03:49 abroad. But I think where Sunderland are perhaps ahead of Borough in this kind of model, they're
03:55 able from the outside looking in it seems, able to bring these kind of players in and give them a
04:00 little bending period. Middlesbrough because they signed 12 this summer to kind of fix the holes in
04:07 the squad. And because of that, they weren't really able to give the summer signings that
04:13 bending period. You've had players coming in from abroad and clearly looking like players who
04:18 aren't yet adapted to the league, aren't yet used to playing English football because it is such a
04:24 high tempo and a lot of physicality in comparison to a lot of the European leagues that they're
04:29 coming in from. So you've seen in those, certainly in those first seven games, that those summer
04:35 signings were really struggling to adapt and to get up to speed with the English game. And I think,
04:42 as we say, a fortnight ago, they won the first league game of the season against Southampton.
04:46 What happened on that day is Michael Carragher, although he plays it down because he of course
04:51 doesn't want to write the summer signings off, he went back to a more experienced team. So there
04:56 was only three summer signings in the starting line of a game against Southampton. Two of them
05:01 were the two players who arrived this summer with a lot of championship experience in goalkeepers
05:07 Senny Dieng and Louis O'Brien. The other one was Rav Vandenberg, who's been the kind of standout
05:13 19-year-old Dutch defender. He's been the standout of the summer signings so far. Beyond that,
05:20 it was all players who were at the club last season or had a bit of championship experience
05:26 prior to that. And you could really see the difference in that Southampton game. And then
05:31 beyond Watford and Cardiff wins, those more experienced heads have led the way. And then
05:37 what's happened is someone like Emmanuel Laté-Laf, for example, who come in this summer from Atlanta
05:43 and initially struggled and couldn't really find his form in front of goal a striker, he came in
05:51 off the bench on Tuesday night against Cardiff and scored the decisive second goal. I think what
05:57 you saw was these new summer signings being blended into the team gradually rather than being thrust
06:04 in and having a lot on the shoulders, a lot expected of them. They're gradually coming
06:10 into games and making impacts that way and gradually growing into things, which seems to be
06:15 the obvious way forward now for Middlesbrough. I was just going to ask you what has kind of
06:22 changed in recent weeks after a run of seven league games without a win, then winning three
06:27 games in a row. It sounds like Carick has just put, as you say, some more experienced players
06:31 back in the team and then allowed these younger players to kind of come in gradually. Has it just
06:36 been a case of bringing more experienced players back in rather than kind of a tactical change or
06:41 anything like that? Yes, I think so. There hasn't been any major tactical changes. Carick said all
06:46 along that they have a set way of playing and he really believes in that. Even during the losing
06:52 run when there were many, myself included, feeling that maybe there was a need for a bit of a
06:58 tactical tweak, Carick always insisted that that wasn't the case and that he believed in what they
07:05 were doing. You see it has just been a case of bringing them more experienced heads in. I think
07:10 one of the big things, Riley McGree wasn't starting a lot at the start of the season. He started only
07:15 two of the first eight in all competitions. He came back in for the Southampton game, got the
07:21 important equaliser in that one, got two down at Watford. Despite the fact he's only started six
07:26 games so far this season, he's got five goals and two assists. So, Carick's kind of alluded to the
07:32 fact that he was struggling for form a bit at the start of the season, which is why he wasn't
07:36 starting games. But his stats clearly show that in the absence of the likes of Tubarak, Pommel was so
07:43 important last season. Riley McGree looks the kind of star at the moment to step up. But the other
07:50 thing I would say about Middlesbrough's early form, to be fair to Michael Carick, it was hard at the
07:54 time and fans were naturally frustrated. But I think stats will tell you so much and one of the
08:02 things that I'm sure would have kept Michael Carick positive about Middlesbrough's start, despite
08:07 seven games without a win, there were the team in the Championship who had the biggest difference
08:12 between both their XG and the actual goals and also the XGA and actual goals against. So, the
08:20 stats suggested that they should have been scoring a lot more balls than what they actually were,
08:24 based on the chances they were creating. And they should have been conceding far fewer than
08:30 they actually were, based on the chances they were conceding. So, in terms of structural issues and
08:36 things like that, the stats suggested that they weren't too far off and that's
08:42 bore fruit in the last two weeks and they've finally got the season going.
08:46 You mentioned Riley McGree there. He is the top scorer this season with five goals for
08:52 Middlesbrough and it looks like he's now stepping up, having to replace those goals last season of
08:57 Archer and Akpon. But who would you say are the key players for Middlesbrough that will be
09:02 important for the side against Sunderland on Saturday? Yeah, so as you say, Riley McGree will
09:07 definitely be one of them. He's an interesting kind of role that he plays in the team because he
09:13 starts on the left of midfield but when you speak to Michael Carick, he'll often say he doesn't
09:18 kind of believe in traditional positions, so to speak, and traditional formations.
09:24 And you see that a lot with Riley McGree and the role he plays in the team because
09:28 although he kind of starts in that left-wing position, he'll drift and you'll see him at
09:33 times over on the right wing. With the right wing, it's still over there. It's not like they've done
09:38 a swap. Literally, Riley McGree will be over on the right with Isaiah Jones. He just has a
09:43 really free-roaming role in the team and that allows him to just occupy space in the final
09:49 third and get on the ball and do what he's good at doing, which is penetrating defences and
09:54 scoring long-range goals. So, yeah, he's definitely one to watch. Hayden Hackney in
10:00 Middlesbrough's midfield is the one who, if given the time and the space, he can dominate and dictate
10:06 the tempo of a game. He broke into the team just before Michael Carick's arrival and has kept his
10:14 place in the team ever since. He's only 21 years old but for a central midfielder like Hayden
10:20 Hackney, you couldn't wish for a better mentor than Michael Carick, could you? You can just see
10:25 his game developing so much under Carick. He's the type of player who always shows for the ball,
10:31 no matter where the ball is. He wants to show for it. He wants to get on it. When he does get on it,
10:35 he's always looking forward. He wants to play the ball forward or he wants to drive with the ball
10:40 and take the ball himself into the final third. So, he's a big player. Isaiah Jones is starting
10:48 to come into a bit of form again. We saw him a couple of years ago as one of the brightest young
10:53 stars in all of the Championship, I would say. But last season, he had a really difficult year.
10:58 He struggled with his mental health off the pitch and that impacted things on the pitch.
11:02 He's done a few interviews now about that and about how he's overcoming that now and that's
11:10 showing on the pitch as well. He's enjoying his football again and you can see that because he's
11:14 back to that direct winger that he was two years ago. Give him the ball. He loves using his pace.
11:21 He loves using his skill to beat a man down the right wing and deliver a ball into the box. He's
11:27 end product, as iffy at times still, but he's the type of player that gets fans off the seat.
11:33 And then lastly, I mentioned him a bit earlier. I've got a funny feeling he might start,
11:38 despite the fact he hasn't. The last three, Emmanuel, Lattie Laff up front,
11:42 got his goal on Tuesday night against Cardiff. That's his third now in a Borough shirt.
11:46 To look at him, he's a very little striker. Not the type you would look and think would lead the
11:54 line as a number nine for a team who play one up front. But he's actually not somebody so far who's
12:01 looked like defenders are capable of bullying him. He's more than up for that physical battle,
12:07 but he's just raw pace to burn. The reason I think he'll start tomorrow is because Carrick
12:15 will want Middlesbrough to try and force Sunderland back a little bit. If Sunderland try to step up
12:21 and leave any space in behind the defence, Lattie Laff will… he's got pace to burn and he'll
12:29 exploit that space, stretch Sunderland a bit. And Carrick will probably hope that that pushes
12:34 Sunderland back a little bit so they're not able to dictate the game from an advanced position.
12:40 You've touched on it there, just about how the team will set up and how they'll approach the
12:47 game against Sunderland. Just looking at the possession stats, Sunderland are a team which
12:51 like to dominate the ball, particularly at home. They've averaged 59.2% possession this season.
12:57 Middlesbrough are also a team that have seen more of the ball with 53.3% on average. But
13:03 how do you think Middlesbrough will set up? It looks like out of possession they're a
13:07 4-2-3-1. That can probably change when they're in possession. But how do you think they'll
13:12 approach the game against Sunderland and what will their game plan be, do you think?
13:15 It's one of the things I'm really intrigued about in this game and how they will go about it.
13:21 I remember last season's game at the Stadium of Light back in January, I think it was, wasn't it?
13:27 Middlesbrough just looked completely overawed by the occasion. The atmosphere brought us in the
13:34 Stadium of Light and that clearly impacted Sunderland in a positive way and Middlesbrough
13:39 in a negative way. Sunderland were buoyed by that atmosphere and really intense and really,
13:46 really fast-paced right from the off. And Middlesbrough just struggled to cope with that,
13:50 I thought, on the day. It'll be interesting to see this time if Carrick's taken anything from
13:56 that and thinks about that. He spoke a lot about the emotion of the game yesterday and game
14:01 management in his press conference. He's never really been the type of character to go somewhere
14:08 and look to shut up shop, for want of a better word. And from speaking to colleagues like yourself
14:14 who do cover Sunderland, it seems that at home in particular, that's one of Sunderland's Achilles
14:20 heels so far, is when teams do shut up shop, they can often struggle to break them down. I think
14:26 that happened in the Cardiff game at the Stadium of Light, didn't it? And Middlesbrough kind of saw
14:31 that tactic with Cardiff on Tuesday night as well and eventually managed to find a way to break them
14:37 down, which Sunderland didn't. Ended up a bit of a sucker punch and Cardiff winning that game.
14:44 But, yeah, I'd be very surprised because Carrick doesn't tend to set up in that manner.
14:51 It would surprise me if he did that. That concerns me a little for Borough because I think that is
14:57 the way to go. You've got to try and slow the game down and just be solid at the back and
15:03 try and stop Sunderland's early momentum and tempo. It wouldn't be surprised me at all if
15:11 Carrick wants to stick to his principles and wants to try and take the game to Sunderland though.
15:17 I worry that would be a mistake.
15:47 Yeah, so that illness is the interesting thing that came out of yesterday's
15:50 press conference. As you say, Johnny Helsing missed Wednesday night. Darrell Enahan
15:55 missed the Watford trip last weekend and he was also only able to be at the bench on Tuesday night.
16:02 And then Carrick kind of said yesterday that three or four others, I think he said,
16:08 have had it as well. So there's clearly been something in the last week or so going around
16:13 Rockcliffe. Carrick kind of said he hopes have come through the worst of it now. The suggestion
16:20 was that as of yesterday, there wasn't any new cases of whatever this illness is. They didn't
16:26 expand on that. But clearly it's not great preparation. Carrick kind of said, we've done
16:34 as much as we can to kind of stop it spreading anymore. But ultimately, we've had to train,
16:40 we've had to prepare for this game. So there's only so much they've been able to do. So hopefully
16:45 they have come through the worst of that, because you would hate that to be a factor in a game
16:50 like this. That it was, if you like, kind of marred by the potential that one of the other
16:59 teams wasn't quite at it on the day because of illness through the squad. In terms of injuries,
17:05 Lewis O'Brien will definitely miss out. He suffered a fractured tibia and ankle injury
17:12 at Watford. It was revealed yesterday that was the extent of it. So he's going to require surgery,
17:17 which that's a big blow to Middlesbrough, because as I mentioned earlier, with the championship
17:21 experience, he was one of two of the 12 summer signings who did have that championship experience.
17:26 He was a quality player two years ago in this division at Huddersfield when they made the
17:32 play-offs and had a horrible year at Nottingham Forest last season. Ended up where he wasn't in
17:39 their 25-man squad from January onwards, was going to go on loan to Blackburn and that fell through
17:44 at the last moment because it didn't go through in time. So he was kind of left in limbo where
17:49 Blackburn were repealing that decision for two months, didn't end up going through and he ended
17:54 up going to MLS and playing under Wayne Rooney at DC United for a couple of months. So he had such a
18:01 horrid time, had just come into the Borough team and then gets this injury and he's out for two to
18:07 three months. So real shame for him and a big blow to Borough because he is a very, very good player
18:13 at this level. Ralf Vandenberg, who I mentioned as well, the kind of one of the standout summer
18:18 signings, he missed Tuesday night and he's a doubt as well. But I'd be surprised, given that the
18:26 likes of Tommy Smith are back fit now, I'd have been surprised if Ralf Vandenberg played tomorrow
18:31 or any week. I would imagine Carrick will want to continue relying on those experienced heads
18:36 like Tommy Smith. There are quite a few links between the two clubs, not least Sunderland boss
18:43 Tony Mowbray, like he did last season going back to or playing against his former club that he
18:49 managed and that he played for. There's also players in the Middlesbrough team that have been
18:53 on Sunderland's books. So we'll talk a bit about Sam Greenwood, who was at Sunderland as an under
18:59 21s player, was then sold by the club. He's now contracted to Leeds but joined Middlesbrough
19:05 on loan in the summer. And he was speaking earlier this week about how his whole family and all his
19:08 friends are Sunderland fans, but he's fully obviously committed to Middlesbrough and getting
19:12 the results for them. He made his first start, didn't he, against Cardiff in midweek. So how
19:18 has he kind of fared since moving to Middlesbrough? Yes, I think it's been interesting when
19:23 Carrick spoke a bit about him yesterday. He had an injury in pre-season, which meant he didn't
19:28 really have much of a pre-season at Leeds. So he joined Middlesbrough, I think it was the last
19:33 week of the transfer window. Obviously, the season already started by then. He's had to do a bit of
19:39 kind of catching up in terms of fitness and match sharpness. So until Tuesday night when he made his
19:44 first start, we'd seen him make four sub appearances, but they were always quite late in games.
19:50 And at times when the game was kind of going in a direction where there wasn't much happening
19:56 anymore and therefore he didn't really ever get a chance to show much of what he's about.
20:01 So Tuesday night against Cardiff was the first opportunity for that really with him starting
20:06 the game. And as we mentioned, Sunderland have seen Cardiff this season as well. And it shocked
20:11 me given the form they're in, just how little ambition they had in that game. That did obviously
20:17 make it difficult for all of Borough's attacking players. There wasn't a lot of space to exploit.
20:21 But what I would say about Greenwood is he looked confident on the ball. He looked like he's got
20:26 technical ability and certainly in a difficult first half where things just weren't quite
20:31 clicking for Middlesbrough, Greenwood was the one where when he got the ball, he wanted to try
20:36 something different. He wanted to try and make something happen. And Carrick particularly likes
20:42 those type of players. That was, I mentioned Aaron Ramsey from Aston Villa last season. That was the
20:47 type of player he was and the amount of Carrick really, really liked him. So, you know, still a
20:52 lot more to come from Sam Greenwood, but there were promising signs on Tuesday night that he
20:56 could be a really useful player for Middlesbrough this season.
20:58 The other one who was falling at Sunderland is Josh Coburn, who's started the last few games
21:04 up front again, didn't make a senior appearance for Sunderland, moved to Middlesbrough as a
21:09 younger player. And now he seems to have broken into the first team. You mentioned earlier that
21:13 you thought maybe Emmanuel Latelaaf would come into the side. So would that mean he kind of
21:17 replaces Coburn? And how has Coburn kind of fared in the last few weeks?
21:21 Yeah, I would expect that to be the case, purely for the reasons I mentioned earlier in terms of
21:27 Latelaaf's pace and stretch in Sunderland a bit, but it would be incredibly harsh on Josh Coburn.
21:32 A 20-year-old, he was on loan last season at Bristol Rovers and he's come back to Borough
21:38 this summer. And you can see that physically he's developed so much. You come in for the last
21:45 three, four games, I think it is now, with Latelaaf struggling. And he's only got the one goal,
21:52 but in general, his overall game has been so important to how Borough have gone about things.
21:57 He's a big, strong lad and he's done really well with his kind of back-to-goal, Borough putting
22:05 the ball into his feet and he's won headers or brought the ball down and laid it off and
22:11 really linked up Borough's playing that way. And that's kind of allowed the likes of Isaiah Jones
22:15 and Riley McRae, who we've mentioned, to kind of get on the ball more in those dangerous areas
22:20 and do what they do best, which is something Borough were lacking in the earlier weeks of
22:27 the season. So it would, I must admit, be incredibly harsh if Coburn did drop out,
22:33 because he has done really well. And yeah, I remember it was Neil Warnock back in 2021
22:38 that gave him his kind of first appearance. He came from nowhere, Josh. He'd barely been playing
22:45 even for the under-23s, as it was at that time. He was an under-18 player and Neil Warnock saw
22:50 something in him and put him in. And I remember Neil Warnock saying at that time that for a boy
22:56 his age, in terms of the strikers at the club at that time, you had like Britt Sombalonga,
23:01 Ashley Fletcher, Joe Rackpom was there at that time. So some decent kind of strikers who'd been
23:08 around the block. Warnock said Coburn had the best movement for a striker at the club and
23:14 it's something we've seen throughout his Middlesbrough career. He's had some great moments
23:18 like that, a winner against Tottenham in the FA Cup. He's very good. He doesn't necessarily look
23:24 like he has bags of pace, but his goal against Watford showed that he's capable of kind of
23:30 running in behind a defence and running through on goal and finishing well. He's a very good
23:35 instinctive finisher, but his movement is so good. He's good in the air, so he'll be in the penalty
23:40 area and he'll find the popular space or he'll find the right area to be in and make sure he's
23:46 in the right area to score a goal. So yeah, it would be harsh on Josh Coburn to drop him. I just
23:51 think for this game, that elapsed kind of explosive pace might be what troubles Sunderland the most.
23:57 There are a few others as well that have played for the opposite club. Paddy McNair,
24:01 formerly of Sunderland, Patrick Roberts now at Sunderland, had a loan spell at Middlesbrough,
24:06 so there's quite a few links between the two clubs. But just finally, Craig, before we let you go,
24:12 have you seen much of Sunderland this season? How do you think they will match up against
24:16 Middlesbrough on Saturday? So I admit they haven't seen much. I did manage to watch a
24:21 couple of games. Most recent one was the Sheffield Wednesday win and obviously Middlesbrough had
24:27 played Sheffield Wednesday a week or so before that and only drew 1-1. Sunderland absolutely blew
24:33 them away. I've been impressed with what I've seen of Sunderland, it's fair to say. Jack Clark
24:39 looks as good as anything I've seen in this division so far this season. He looks a really,
24:45 really good player and part of the reason why I think Tommy Smith would play, no matter what
24:50 Ralf Vandenberg's fitness was tomorrow, Tommy Smith, Carrick will hope his experience will be
24:58 able to do a bit of a job on Jack Clark because Middlesbrough will have to try and keep him quiet.
25:02 But then Sunderland have got other threats as well. Patrick Roberts, who you mentioned there,
25:07 Lucas Engels had a really difficult time at Middlesbrough but he had a big night on Tuesday
25:14 night where he overcame early confidence issues and provided the assist. The left
25:20 back, he's a left back but it's fair to say his qualities are more in the attacking sense.
25:26 He was hooped at half-time in Middlesbrough's draw, Sheffield Wednesday, and he had a
25:31 horrid 45 minutes where their wing-back just beat him every time. So that's an interesting
25:38 battle, presuming Lucas Engels is the one to play left back for Burrit and Mora. I presume he'd be
25:45 up against either Patrick Roberts or Abdullah Barr, I think, played on the right wing the other
25:50 night, didn't he? Both players capable of beating a man, so Engels is going to have to be on his game.
25:58 So, in terms of Sunderland, they're a really positive side. I told a lot of friends who
26:07 were Sunderland fans when Tony Mowbray was getting the job that he's got a funny reputation to people
26:13 who don't know him. I think because he's been around the block that long, he can, I hope he
26:19 doesn't make me say anything, sound a bit dour at times and maybe a bit down at times. But actually,
26:26 I'm sure Sunderland fans are realising he's such a good bloke and he's actually a really good
26:31 tactician as well. He plays a lovely brand of football and I think Sunderland have been really
26:36 impressive. I don't come with huge optimism for Middlesbrough and Mora, but you've always got to
26:43 have that hope for these kind of games, haven't you? Just finally then, can I push you for a quick
26:48 score prediction, how you think the game is going to go? It could go one of two ways. I think
26:54 Sunderland could, a lot like last season, kind of use the atmosphere and absolutely blow Middlesbrough
27:00 away. I struggle to see Middlesbrough winning the game unless they do shut up shop and kind of sneak
27:05 a goal from somewhere. I think for Middlesbrough a good bet would be, hoping it's a bit of a cagey
27:13 game and they come away with a 1-1 or a 2-2 draw, something like that. So I'll go 1-1.
27:19 As we alluded to earlier, I think Middlesbrough aren't as strong as last season when they did
27:25 reach the playoffs and I think Sunderland have got that attacking firepower. So for me, I predict
27:30 that Sunderland might just edge it with a 2-1 win, but we'll see how the game goes on Saturday.
27:35 Craig, thanks a lot for joining us on the latest episode of the RAW podcast. If you like what we
27:41 do here at the RAW podcast, you can subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcasts
27:47 and leave a review. For all the latest SAFC news, you can head over to the SAFC section
27:53 of the Sunderland Echo website. You can find the thoughts of head coach Tony Mowbray and we'll have
27:58 more build-up ahead of Saturday's game. And then we'll also have live updates from the Stadium of
28:03 Light as Sunderland take on Middlesbrough on Saturday. Remember as well, it's the early
28:07 kick-off at 12.30 and we'll also have post-match reaction and analysis. So once again, thanks a
28:13 lot for listening to the RAW podcast.