Joe Nicholson is joined by Millwall writer Alex Grace to preview Sunderland's Championship fixture against the Lions.
Category
🥇
SportsTranscript
00:00 Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo. We're back
00:26 for another preview podcast ahead of Sunderland's Championship match against Millwall at the
00:31 Stadium of Light. My name is Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by Millwall reporter Alex Grace.
00:37 Alex, how are things this afternoon?
00:39 I'm good thanks, Joe. Yourself?
00:41 Yes, all good. I think it's looking a lot better from a Millwall perspective just looking
00:47 at Millwall's last few results. Not been a great season for them to be honest looking
00:52 at the table. But they have had two back-to-back wins over Leicester and Cardiff. They've now
00:57 got Neil Harris back at the club. He returned back in February. So just how have they been
01:04 playing in the last few weeks?
01:05 Yes, I think you've mentioned it spot on there about the last two results. Been really, really
01:12 good. Played really well against Leicester and then got an important win over Cardiff
01:19 which is probably just about secured safety I think judging by the points totals of the
01:27 teams around us. I think they've probably done enough now to say they'll have an eighth
01:35 season at Championship level. It's typical of the team really to go to Rotherham and
01:46 to Huddersfield and to lose both of those in disappointing circumstances, shall we say,
01:53 and the timescale of it right at the end of the game to then come back and beat Leicester
01:58 at home on the Tuesday night. It's a typical way that they like to do things. I don't even
02:07 think you could ask the players why, you could ask the managers why. It's just the way they've
02:14 done it for so many years.
02:15 You mentioned there that it looks like they've probably done enough now to stay up. Millwall
02:21 up to 16th with 50 points. You've got Huddersfield in 22nd in that relegation spot. They're on
02:28 44 points. There's a six point difference with three games to go. It looks like they're
02:34 a result away or they might have already done enough to get over the line. The last time
02:39 we saw Millwall it was back in December, the game ended 1-1. A lot has changed at both
02:44 clubs. Sunderland have done Millwall since that game. It was actually Tony Mowbray's
02:47 last game in charge of Sunderland. Millwall had Joe Edwards in charge, who was their second
02:53 manager of the season after Gary Rouse. Then they had him and then they've gone back to
02:58 Neil Harris. So obviously a lot has gone on. Can you give us a brief overview of how Millwall
03:04 have done since that game back in December and how their season has panned out?
03:09 Back in December, that was Tony Mowbray's last game in charge, wasn't it? The Jack Clark
03:13 penalty. Dubious whether he should have been on the pitch at the time to take the penalty,
03:20 I think was what a lot of people were thinking. It was towards the end of the game as well,
03:25 wasn't it?
03:26 Yeah, it was about 12 minutes from the end of the penalty that Clark scored.
03:29 Yeah, I remember. The silly foul that led to it as well. A lot of things since then.
03:36 They had a good spell over Christmas. Beat QPR on Boxing Day, then Norwich. Then on New
03:43 Year's Day they went away at Ashton Gate against Bristol City. Since then, from then through
03:51 to February, was an absolute disaster really. They lost six in a row, compounding with the
04:00 4-0 home defeat to Ipswich on the Tuesday. Then Sheffield Wednesday came to the den.
04:06 1-2-0. That proved to be Joe Edwards' last game in charge. There was a big slide towards
04:16 the picture of where we find ourselves now, down at the bottom. But since the arrival
04:21 of Harris, things have changed massively. Of course, he's managed to unite the team
04:27 and the players and the fans. That's a big thing. The ground had turned, shall we say.
04:36 But that final game with Joe Edwards in charge, I think you could definitely see a shift.
04:44 And unfortunately, once the fans go at Millwall, it's very, very difficult to rescue it, if
04:49 you like.
04:50 I think we were all in a real fault for Joe. You could see what he wanted to do. Unfortunately,
05:00 it just didn't work out for him. Hopefully, he goes on and finds another job where he'll
05:09 be able to implement what he wanted to do.
05:14 Since then, of course, we had the win at Southampton in Harris' first game in charge. He's come
05:21 in and he's made them very hard to beat. They can defend brilliantly by playing. They sit
05:30 in their two banks of four and they do. They make it really, really difficult to score
05:34 against. It can be interesting to watch at times. It's not great for the heart of the
05:42 fans, I would say, because you do sit there with your heart right in your mouth sometimes.
05:49 But no, look, he's done what he's had to do. He's come in and he's got the club now looking
05:56 like they're going to be safe.
05:59 What are the main changes Harris has made? It looks like he has tightened them up at
06:07 the back after you mentioned that 4-0 defeat against Ipswich under Edwards. I don't think
06:13 Mill will have conceded more than two under Harris. How do you expect them to set up at
06:18 the Stadium of Light coming to Sunderland on Saturday?
06:22 I think it would be very similar. He's gone with two banks of four and he's tended to
06:30 have a 4-4-1-1 shape, which has worked quite well. Obviously, back in the Edwards days,
06:40 we were playing a five at the back system, which just didn't work. But since Harris has
06:48 come in, he's gone back to a four at the back. Cooper and Tanganga at the back have been
06:53 quite reliable, as well as Ryan Leonard, who's been playing right back. So, no, look, I think
07:02 that it will be a similar line-up. I don't see him changing it too much, particularly
07:08 at the minute because safety is not 100% guaranteed. I know it's six points with three to play
07:13 for and only one point will do it up at the Stadium of Light. Then we might see some changes.
07:19 But no, I don't think he'll change it if he doesn't have to. It wouldn't surprise me if
07:25 he goes completely unchanged for Saturday.
07:33 How has Harris' appointment gone down with Millwall fans? They had Gary Rowe at the start
07:37 of the season, who obviously looked like he'd done a very good job, got them on the cusp
07:41 of the play-offs a couple of times and seemed like there was maybe a little bit of unrest
07:46 towards the end of his tenure there. They've obviously then tried to go down a different
07:50 direction with Joe Edwards. That hasn't worked out. And now they've gone back to Neil Harris.
07:54 So how has his appointment gone down with Millwall supporters?
07:59 I think when it first happened, I think there was a bit of like, "Oh, OK, that's interesting."
08:08 But I think the fans recognised, "Look, this is somebody who the players will answer to.
08:14 This is somebody who's got a lot of standing at this football club. It's someone that can
08:19 unite the fans and the players." And that's what he's done. He's injected a bit of passion,
08:26 which you always know he's going to do. And he can demand that from the players. He can
08:31 demand that from the fans as well. And they're very answerable to him. He shows passion and
08:39 that's something that the fans of the club really want to see. I think if there's one
08:44 thing you can have at Millwall where you can lose a game, that's fine. But you can't lose
08:51 a game without any passion and desire to want the shirt. And that's something he's installed
08:56 in those players. And I think from the fans' point of view, they're happy that they've
09:03 now got somebody in who can do that.
09:06 I think there are concerns going forward, of course, into next season because they're
09:11 not quite sure what's going to happen. I mean, if you look at Harity's contract, it runs
09:15 till the end of next season. So there's no sort of... It felt very short-term when he
09:22 came in. And I think if there's one concern from the fan base, it'd be sort of what's
09:28 the more long-term strategy with it? Does he stay on? Which I'd be very surprised if
09:35 he doesn't stay on into next season now because he's earned the right to do that. The question
09:42 is from the fan base's point of view, I think, will be does he stay past the end of next
09:48 season? Or do they spend next season now looking for the next manager? Or the different way
09:59 that they want to play. Does he come in? Does he steady the ship and lay the foundations
10:03 for the next manager to come in? I think that's a question that people are sort of wanting
10:09 the answer to, shall we say.
10:11 Yeah, it'll be interesting to see which approach they take. But just looking at the Millwall
10:16 squad, there are a couple of familiar faces from a Sunderland point of view. Duncan Whatmore
10:22 came back into the squad against Cardiff. He came on at half-time and scored Millwall's
10:27 third goal. He had been out with an injury, I think. And obviously it was good to see
10:33 him back from a Millwall point of view. But how has he fared this season? And do you see
10:39 him starting the game on Saturday at the Stadium of Light? Or could he be on the bench again?
10:45 It's hard to know with Duncan because he gives you a lot of effort, he gives you a lot of
10:53 desire and everything like that. His end product sometimes does leave a little bit to be desired.
11:01 But to be fair to him, he'll run for the team, he'll give the passion for the team. And you
11:07 could see that, I think, in his celebration last week. He scores the goal and takes off
11:14 his shirt and swings it around. Which I think he's somebody who fits well into a Harris
11:23 team in all fairness. He does the running, he does the hard graft that's needed to play
11:31 in a Harris team. In terms of whether he'll start or not, I'm not 100% sure. He came on
11:39 for Essay at half-time last week. It is possible he could start. He is one that's been in and
11:47 out under Harris. He's started a few, he's been on the bench for a few, he was out with
11:52 injury. But he's also scored twice since Harris has come in as well. So he's someone that
11:58 Harris does like. So it wouldn't surprise me to see him start come Saturday.
12:05 What sort of role has he been playing at middle? Has he been out wide or has he been through
12:09 the middle?
12:10 No, so he's been out wide. He hasn't featured through the middle under Harris at all. That
12:20 role has been filled pretty much by Michael Obafeni. He's played out on the wing and that's
12:31 really where he's been used. And to be honest, he was used there under Gary as well. He's
12:36 not really had a chance through the middle since he's come to the club really.
12:42 The other one is George Honeyman, former Sunderland captain. He went off injured in the game against
12:49 Leicester, missed the game last weekend against Cardiff with a shoulder injury. I think Neil
12:55 Harris has come out and said he's not completely ruled out of the game and they'll see how
13:00 he is. So again, how's he been playing at middle this season? How big a loss would it
13:04 be if he was ruled out of the game?
13:08 George is another one. He has so much passion for the team. He runs, he does everything
13:17 that you'd expect him to do. He's a leader on the pitch, which is evident actually. Again,
13:25 he's another one who's played out wide more than anything else since Harris has come in.
13:33 And look, it was a shame to see him go off actually, because albeit he doesn't have much
13:39 in terms of an end product, does he? He doesn't score many goals, but he's certainly a key
13:45 and important person to have in your team.
13:50 Because the injury he had was a shoulder, the same shoulder that he had surgery on.
13:54 So there was a bit of concern. But yeah, as Harris has said, he hasn't ruled him out 100
14:02 per cent of the game. So it'd be interesting to see whether or not he features. I don't
14:09 see him starting the game, that's for sure, but he may well be in the squad. And I think
14:13 that he's always a good player to have to come on. And he's always a good player to
14:19 have start if possible as well. So no, it'll be interesting to see. He's someone, again,
14:25 that gets on well with the fans, because he shows that level of passion.
14:29 I'm sure he'll be desperate to play coming back to the Stadium of Light. You mentioned
14:35 a few other players there, Michael Obafemi's come in. So who are some of the other key
14:41 players in this Millwall team that Sunderland fans will have to watch out for on Saturday?
14:46 Of course you've got Michael, but then you've got Zeehan Fleming. He's not had as a productive
14:55 season this year as he had last year. But no, he's the danger man from the set-pieces,
15:02 the free-kicks, stuff like that. I would watch out though for both the centre-halves, Cooper
15:09 and Tanganga, from things like corners and set-pieces and stuff like that. Cooper got
15:15 off the mark last week. It's been a long time coming for him, bless him. In fact, the last
15:20 time he scored before Saturday was against Sunderland last season. So it's been a long
15:27 time for him. George Saville as well. He's got history at the Stadium of Light. I think
15:33 he scored two free-kicks one year. I think it might have been the year that Sunderland
15:39 went down. He scored two free-kicks there.
15:42 The 2017/18?
15:43 Yeah, I think it was, with the goalkeeper and a mare.
15:47 It was quite a forgettable season from a Sunderland point of view.
15:50 Both goalkeepers had a complete mare in that game. It was Jordan Archer for Millwall that
15:55 year. An absolute mare in goal. Both teams had a bit of a shocker with their keepers
16:02 that afternoon. But no, I think they are the key ones to look out for. In a game that I
16:10 don't think is going to tear the trees up.
16:21 We usually finish by asking our guests what they have made of Sunderland this season.
16:25 I don't know how much you will get to see of them. You've seen them down at the Den
16:30 in December but a lot has changed since then. Just from an outside looking in, what have
16:34 you made of Sunderland this season and how do you think they will match up against Millwall
16:37 on Saturday?
16:38 I think it's been a bit like our season in terms of a bit of chaos that's gone on. I
16:48 was in that extraordinary press conference from Tony Mowbray back at the Den and that
16:56 was quite an interesting one. And then the appointment of Michael Beale was certainly
17:04 interesting. It didn't seem to go down particularly well with a lot of Sunderland fans. And then
17:12 of course that chaos with the FA Cup game and the rebranding of the home executive lounge
17:20 or something. I think it's been a strange one for Sunderland. I was quite surprised
17:28 when Beale left. They didn't go in and look to appoint a full-time manager as well. I
17:34 thought that was a bit of a strange decision considering the timing. Because am I right
17:40 in saying they weren't completely out of playoff contention at that time?
17:45 No, they had lost two in a row. They lost Beale's last two games but they were still
17:50 within touching distance of the playoffs. It was obviously still around February time
17:53 so it wasn't completely out of the question.
17:56 I was surprised they didn't go out and appoint a permanent manager at that point which did
18:04 surprise me a little because it does seem now that they've sort of dropped off a bit
18:09 and pretty much not a lot riding on this game for them now. I think it's been an interesting
18:15 season for Sunderland. It's been a bit of a rollercoaster but I think the true proof
18:21 in how this season is going to reflect will be next year. If they get the managerial appointment
18:28 right, if they're up there challenging again next year, which a club of Sunderland size
18:34 should be doing really. But then again there's so many clubs in this league now that have
18:42 such big budgets and such big stadiums and such big infrastructures and everything like
18:48 that. It's like you think of Millwall, they're quite a small club compared to some of the
18:57 guys that are in this league now. Even Portsmouth coming up next year, it just shows how big
19:04 the championship is and how tough it is to compete in it. But no, from an outside point
19:12 of view it's certainly been one I've followed throughout the season to see how it's all
19:19 changed. But it'll be interesting. I think it'll be an interesting summer for Sunderland
19:24 as well, who comes in, what players move on as well because they've got a massive amount
19:30 of young talent there as well which I think at some stage will move on. That's a Jack
19:38 Clarke, I think people like that. Very, very good players, very good at this level. It
19:43 wouldn't surprise me maybe if a Premier League side came in for him come the summer. But
19:49 no look, I think it's all going to depend on who they bring in as well. So I think it'll
19:56 be a very interesting summer let's say for those up at Wearside.
20:01 Yeah, absolutely. Definitely a very big summer for Sunderland. I know you could say that
20:05 about a lot of championship clubs but Sunderland, their next head coach appointment, they have
20:09 to get that right and put right what's come wrong this season in terms of the way the
20:15 season's unravelled ever since Mowbray left. And as you mentioned as well, there's going
20:18 to be Premier League clubs looking at some of their key players, Jack Clarke's the one
20:23 that looks like Sunderland not going up now. It seems likely that he could leave and there
20:29 will obviously be interest in other players as well. So definitely a big summer. And as
20:32 you mentioned before, there's going to be a lot of teams with the expectation to finish
20:37 in that top six. I'm sure Middlewall at the start of the season were one of those clubs
20:41 after narrowly missing out last season that had aims of getting in that top six again.
20:47 And both of them, Middlewall and Sunderland, they've missed out this time. So big summer
20:52 for a lot of clubs. And as you say, it'll be a very competitive championship again,
20:55 I think, next season.
20:57 But just before we go, Alex, we just usually finish by asking our guests just for a quick
21:02 score prediction, how do you think the game is going to pan out on Saturday at the Stadium
21:05 of Light?
21:06 I've got to be honest, I don't hold out much hope for a game of entertainment, I've got
21:14 to be honest. Two teams really, you know, the point suits Middlewall massively, you
21:19 know, probably be enough to secure safety. Sunderland haven't got a lot to play for.
21:25 So I'm going to go for an absolutely boring 0-0 draw.
21:29 Well, Sunderland have had a few of those recently. They've actually kept five clean sheets in
21:35 their last six games and the exception was a 5-1 defeat against Blackburn. But after
21:42 that they've kind of shored things up. They've had two good away performances at West Brom
21:47 and Leeds, although the West Brom game they were second best for most of the first half
21:52 until the red card for Brandon Thomas de Santé, which turned the game and Sunderland managed
21:56 to take three points from that one. So they have tightened things up at the back, but
22:00 I think there will be more expectation for them to dominate the ball and attack Middlewall
22:04 a little bit more, whereas going away to Leeds and West Brom, you can kind of sit a little
22:09 bit deeper and sacrifice some of that attacking play. So it'll be interesting to see how Sunderland
22:14 do approach it. I expect, as you mentioned before, Middlewall will come and be two banks
22:18 of four, be very difficult to break down and it could be a frustrating afternoon at the
22:22 stadium. So I'll go for a 1-1 draw, as you say, not really much for either side to play
22:29 for, although Middlewall are not mathematically safe yet. So a point would probably even be
22:33 a decent result for them, which might kind of edge them over the line. So I can't really
22:38 see them being too many goals, but as you say, we had that 5-1 game against Blackburn
22:44 and Sunderland a couple of weeks back and remember towards the end of last season, no
22:47 Sunderland were going for the playoffs, but they had a 4-1 draw against Hull and you just
22:51 never know. So we'll see how the game plays out on Saturday.
22:55 Alex, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the RAW podcast. And if you like
23:02 what we do, you can head over to the SAFC section of the Sunderland Echo website for
23:07 all the build up ahead of Saturday's match. Sunderland's interim head coach, Mike Dodds,
23:13 will be holding his pre-match press conference on Thursday afternoon. So you can look out
23:17 for that. We'll have live updates from the Academy of Light and we'll also have live
23:21 updates, analysis and reaction from the Stadium of Light as Sunderland face Middlewall. So
23:27 once again, thanks a lot for listening to the RAW podcast.
23:31 [BLANK_AUDIO]