Joe Nicholson is joined by Bristol City writer and podcaster Matthew Withers to preview Sunderland's Championship fixture against the Robins at the Stadium of Light
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00:00 Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:26 We're back for another preview podcast ahead of Sunderland's championship match against
00:31 Bristol City at the Stadium of Light.
00:34 So joining myself, Joe Nicholson, we are joined by Robins writer and podcaster, Matthew Withers.
00:41 Matthew, it looks like in recent weeks, looking at results anyway, it's been a bit easier
00:45 to be a Bristol City supporter.
00:47 Yeah, good morning, Joe.
00:49 Yeah, it has been.
00:51 We had a really good Easter with two big wins against High Fly in Leicester City and then
00:58 a, I guess, somewhat local derby against Plymouth Argyle.
01:03 Two 1-0 wins, but two pretty decent performances more than anything.
01:08 I think most football fans, you kind of take the sort of defeats and things if you play
01:14 well.
01:15 But we hadn't been playing well before that.
01:17 I think we'd lost five out of six.
01:21 Ironically, again, had a couple of really good wins away at Middlesbrough and then home
01:26 to Southampton, who were on that amazing unbeaten record.
01:30 And then we go in loose to Queen's Park Rangers and Sheffield Wednesday.
01:34 And it's been the story of our season.
01:36 You know, we play well against the good sides, the sides that want to play football.
01:41 But those teams that have that low block, it seems to be the way of saying things these
01:46 days.
01:47 We really struggled to break down.
01:48 You mentioned some of the results there.
01:51 So it's three wins in the last four for Bristol City.
01:54 They've beaten Leicester, beaten Plymouth 1-0 in that run.
01:58 Before that run of three wins in four games, it was four defeats in a row.
02:03 So has Liam Manning, the manager, has he changed much in recent weeks?
02:07 And has it been much different to go on this run?
02:09 Yeah, he switched to playing a three or a five, if you like.
02:16 And just some of the personnel sort of changed.
02:19 He's brought in Hayden Roberts, although he did make changes at half-time against Plymouth
02:24 on Saturday.
02:27 I think generally, when Liam Manning first came in, even though our football hadn't been
02:33 brilliant, there was a real appreciation for Nigel Pearson and what he'd done in terms
02:37 of reshaping the club.
02:40 You know, we had some massive wagering that we had to get off the books.
02:45 And so even though the football under Nigel Pearson and the results weren't always brilliant,
02:49 he was still very popular with a large section of our fan base.
02:53 So when he was kind of unceremoniously let go, and the club didn't handle that very well
02:59 at all, Liam Manning came in and he was always on to a little bit of a hide into nothing
03:04 for a large group of our fans.
03:07 He absolutely wants to change to a possession-based sort of team again, as is the modern way it
03:14 seems with modern coaches.
03:18 The first few games, taking the first one at QPR, which was, you know, he was only in
03:23 the building a couple of days, but the next few games you could see what he was trying
03:27 to do, but you would still have fans saying, "Just get it forward.
03:30 Stop this sort of playing around at the back."
03:33 And then he's gone on this sort of a bit of a dip, and I'll be honest with you, there
03:37 was a fair chunk of the fan base calling for him to go.
03:41 Didn't think that he could cut it at this level.
03:44 I've absolutely not been one of those.
03:46 I think he needs time and he needs at least another transfer window, if not two, to try
03:52 and get his own players in.
03:55 But I think the international break came at a really good time for us, which is unusual
03:59 for us.
04:00 Normally we're playing well up to an international break, and then after an international break
04:03 we sort of fall off a cliff.
04:06 But it came at a really good time, and the first game back was the Leicester game.
04:09 And it was a really open game.
04:11 I don't know if you'd seen any highlights.
04:13 Jamie Vardy missed a hatful.
04:16 Our keeper was outstanding that day.
04:18 But we also created plenty of opportunities.
04:20 So it wasn't a smashing grab.
04:23 I think we deserved the win.
04:26 And then Plymouth, first 20 minutes, we were...
04:28 I'm not going to say we were dreadful.
04:30 Plymouth were very good.
04:31 They're at home, they're struggling.
04:34 They came at us, but didn't really...
04:35 I mean, I don't think the keeper really had a safe to make.
04:38 And then he changed it after 20 minutes.
04:40 He went to a four.
04:42 We got more control.
04:43 And really for the rest of the game, we were in pretty much total control.
04:48 We only scored the one goal.
04:49 But yeah, we played really well for the rest of that game.
04:52 So I think he's changed things around.
04:54 He's starting to win a few more fans around.
04:58 And if we can have a good remainder of the season, then you go into the summer with a
05:03 little bit more optimism, don't you?
05:05 Yeah, you've spoken a bit there about the kind of style of play undermining now.
05:09 Sunderland have had two very different games in their last two fixtures.
05:12 They went away to Cardiff on Good Friday, had a good 2-0 win there.
05:16 They had a lot of the ball.
05:18 Cardiff kind of sat off them and allowed Sunderland to play.
05:21 But then they played Blackburn on Easter Monday and Blackburn were more in their faces.
05:26 They were pressing higher, kind of isolating Sunderland players on the ball and exploiting
05:31 the space in behind.
05:33 Now, how do you think Bristol City will set up coming to the Stadium of Light on Saturday?
05:38 I think you'd probably have looked to see what Blackburn did and try and replicate that.
05:43 I mean, we do like to try and when we're at our best and certainly when we played Southampton
05:49 and Leicester as well, to an extent, you know, we were putting that press on.
05:54 We've got some really energetic players.
05:56 Jason Knight, a player we signed from Derby County last season or in the summer, he's just non-stop.
06:04 His energy levels are unbelievable.
06:07 And he's also brought in Scott Twain, who was on loan at Hull from Burnley.
06:14 And then we took him from Hull in January.
06:18 From their loan, that was cancelled.
06:20 Burnley let him come to us, played the first game and scored, then got injured.
06:25 And then he's now, he came and played a little bit in the Leicester game and then a little
06:30 bit more against Plymouth.
06:33 And he's the kind of ten that unlocks things for us.
06:36 I think we'll still look to try and play a press.
06:38 I don't know whether he will go three or whether he will go four at the back.
06:42 I think it depends kind of just how he views it, really.
06:46 Yeah.
06:47 But that's in much the same way as you're saying about Sunderland.
06:49 It's the same as us.
06:50 You don't know what you're going to get from us.
06:52 We could put in a really, really good performance or it could be a performance where, you know,
06:57 it's just, yeah, you look at it and you think this just isn't the same team.
07:02 So obviously now six games to go.
07:04 And before we came on, there's not really in terms of like league position much to play
07:08 for between these two clubs, the 12th and 13th.
07:11 But what will be kind of seen as a good season for Bristol City if they end with six games
07:16 to go?
07:17 Would a top half finish be seen as a success for them or will they have wanted a playoff
07:21 place at the start of the season?
07:23 I mean, I think certainly from a club point of view, the owner, the board of directors
07:30 would have wanted, expected a top 10 finish and pushing for the playoffs.
07:36 In fact, our chairman, the owner's son, came out and said that we had a top, certainly
07:45 a top 10 budget, maybe even a top six.
07:48 As fans, and I don't know about you, Joe, and if it's the same with Sunderland, I think
07:54 modern day fans expect to win and to get promoted.
07:59 And, you know, I've been following the club for nearly 50 years.
08:03 And so I'm a bit more realistic.
08:05 So at the start of the season, I said I'd expect a top 10 finish.
08:10 And absolutely that as we went into the last knockings, we'd be in with a shout of a playoff
08:15 place.
08:16 For me now where we sit, I still want a top 10 finish.
08:21 I think we need another, I think it might be another three points, maybe six points
08:26 to better what we did last season.
08:29 And I think that's what you want.
08:31 You want to always see progression.
08:33 It's been a bit of a tumultuous year with what happened with Nigel Pearson.
08:39 And so Liam Manning coming in, trying to put a new style on.
08:43 I think if we can get top 10, then I'm not going to say all fans will be happy, but fans
08:49 of my age will kind of accept that and then look to progress next season.
08:54 When we absolutely would be looking to be vying for a playoff place with the right recruitment.
09:01 But as you know, it's such a tough league.
09:03 Such a tough league.
09:04 And I think that's the challenging thing, isn't it?
09:06 That over probably more than half the teams in the division at the start of the season
09:10 will be targeting a playoff place or think they can get in the playoff.
09:13 And some certainly thought that at the start of the season because they did it last season
09:17 and they snuck up to sixth and managed to get in the playoffs.
09:20 And at the start of the season, it looked like they had a similar squad that could challenge again.
09:25 And they've kind of shot themselves in the foot this season with the managerial appointment
09:29 and how the season's unraveled.
09:31 But it's certainly kind of a very underwhelming kind of season compared to last season.
09:36 Where were you when when Mowbray left?
09:39 Because you were still, it wasn't like you were really struggling, was it?
09:42 They were three points off the playoffs.
09:44 They were around 10th, but they were three points off the playoffs.
09:46 Yeah.
09:47 Yeah.
09:48 Because again, there's a manager, obviously, you know, much like Pearson, old school experience,
09:53 lots of promotions.
09:54 So I was surprised at that.
09:56 I kind of wasn't surprised at Bill because he was the hot property from what he'd done at QPR
10:04 and did an OK job at Rangers.
10:06 But obviously that fell sour pretty quickly, didn't it?
10:09 So and then is it Dodds?
10:12 Dodds, isn't it?
10:13 Someone who's come from internal.
10:14 Yeah.
10:15 He was actually in charge the last time that these two sides played at Ashton Gate in December.
10:18 So we had three games in December after Mowbray left.
10:23 Dodds was in caretaker charge for three games and Bristol City was the third game.
10:27 So he's been part of the coaching staff and now he's in charge until the end of the season.
10:31 But I was just going to ask you, because it's always interesting to get a different perspective
10:35 from an outside looking in of what have you made of Sunderland this season
10:38 and how have you kind of viewed them?
10:41 Yeah, I think, you know, again, lots of changes.
10:46 I think when you lose and his name's completely gone out of my head,
10:50 but the striker that went to Southampton.
10:52 Oh, Ross Stewart.
10:53 Yeah, yeah. Him.
10:55 You've obviously had Jack Clark out injured.
10:58 Sadly for us, I think, came back, didn't he, in the last game?
11:02 He came off the bench, yeah.
11:04 Yeah, he's a player that frightens us whenever we've played you.
11:08 You know, Sunderland's a massive club.
11:11 I think a lot of Bristol City fans kept an eye on it because, A, the Netflix series,
11:18 but also with Lee Johnson going there and Jamie McAllister.
11:22 You know, and we've had a lot of players that go there.
11:26 In fact, I've got a bit of a quiz for you at the end.
11:29 But you keep an eye on it.
11:32 Massive club and absolutely you should be Premier League, let's face it.
11:37 And so definitely should be challenging for playoffs.
11:41 You know, when you see a club like Coventry City, who, again,
11:46 no disrespect to Coventry because they've got a tremendous history,
11:49 but with everything they've been through, for them to still be challenging like they are
11:54 and a FA Cup semi-final, you look at it and think, just how is that possible?
11:58 You know, that should be Sunderland.
12:00 You know, your fan base is second to none.
12:03 So, yeah, it's been – you can't hide behind it – it's been a poor season for you.
12:09 You know, I think that thing around the managerial changes, it does have an impact,
12:15 especially if you try and play a different style or if the character that comes in isn't the right fit.
12:20 So, yeah, like us, I think if the season finished tomorrow and we both stayed where we were,
12:27 I think we'd both view it as a poor season.
12:30 Yeah, and I think that's because Sunderland obviously finished sixth last season.
12:34 Obviously, they'd just come up from League One, so if last season, for example,
12:37 they'd finish 17th, then maybe this season could be viewed as progression.
12:41 But the fact that they did sneak into sixth last season and then have gone back down
12:46 makes it very difficult for fans to see it as a success.
12:49 But going back to the Bristol City game, as we mentioned before,
12:54 the last time they played was in December.
12:56 Bristol City winning that game 1-0 with a penalty.
13:00 Just looking at the side that played that game, one player that did impress me was
13:04 Taylor Gardner-Hickman, who I think has missed the last two with a calf injury.
13:09 So, what is the kind of latest team news and how much would they miss him if he's out?
13:14 It's an interesting one with Taylor.
13:17 He's a young lad that we signed initially on loan from West Brom.
13:21 And then as part of Andy Viman going to West Brom in January,
13:26 we then made that signing permanent.
13:29 He's a good player. He's not really set the world alight.
13:34 He's had good games, as you're sort of saying with that one.
13:37 And then he's had other games where you're kind of, yeah, he did okay.
13:42 So, I don't expect him to be back fit and he certainly wouldn't start.
13:48 I expect it to be a midfield of either Matty James or Joe Williams with Jason Knight.
13:57 Jason Knight had been playing in a kind of advanced midfield role, if you like, a 10.
14:03 But he's not really a creative 10. He's just a runner, really.
14:07 No, that's unfair. He's got more about him than that.
14:09 But he's not a player that's going to unlock defences with a through ball.
14:14 So, I would expect it to be Matty James probably and Jason Knight.
14:20 He will play Scott Twine in the 10.
14:24 And then he will probably have Anis Mometi wide.
14:27 He might go with Mark Sykes, who's been on the bench last couple of games
14:32 and has come on and made a real impact.
14:34 And then sort of down the middle, it will be either Naki Wells or Tommy Conway.
14:37 He likes to play a one sort of down the middle.
14:41 The defence is fairly settled. It depends whether he does go three or four.
14:45 But it's likely to be, I would imagine, I mean, the keeper is nailed on.
14:49 He's played every game. So, Max Illyrian goal.
14:51 If he goes for it, it will probably be George Tanner on the right,
14:55 Zach Viner and Rob Dickey in the middle and Cam Pring on the left.
15:00 And then, yeah, as I said, James Knight and probably Mometi Conway and Sykes.
15:08 I don't know what I've said then, or maybe Twine in there.
15:11 But yeah, I mean, we've got a lad, Anis Mometi, who was signed from Wickham,
15:16 who's, you know, a hell of a talent.
15:19 But again, consistency hasn't been there over the last six weeks.
15:22 He's actually played really well. So it will be interesting to see how he plays.
15:25 And actually, prior to a recent run of form,
15:28 probably his best game in the City shirt was away at your place last season.
15:33 He played really well.
15:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got a penalty after about five and a half years or whatever it was.
15:39 Yeah, yeah. They had a penalty for ages out there.
15:42 Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
15:44 So, yeah, so the team is kind of settled.
15:49 He does like to make changes, but it will be, I would imagine it will be that.
15:53 And it depends again whether any of them have come through the Easter period
15:57 with any knocks or anything, but it will be that sort of squad. Yeah.
16:01 We've talked about how Bristol City might set up.
16:04 We usually just finish our podcast just by asking our guests just for a quick score prediction.
16:09 How do you think the game is going to go?
16:10 Sunderland are very difficult to predict at the minute because, as we've seen,
16:15 went away to Cardiff and won 2-0 and then get thumped by Blackburn 5-1.
16:19 But what's your prediction for the game?
16:22 So I'm going to go 1-1 again.
16:25 I think, you know, if we turn up and we play with an intensity,
16:29 then we've got every chance of getting something out of the game.
16:32 And that could be a win, especially on the back of, you know, your defeat last week.
16:38 Now, you know, you'd expect a reaction from Sunderland because of that.
16:43 So on that basis, yeah, I'll go for a 1-1.
16:47 Yeah, I was going to go for a 1-1 as well.
16:49 I think they have to tighten things up after that 5-1 defeat.
16:53 And just looking at Bristol City stats as well,
16:55 it looks like they've got a decent defensive record compared to the teams around them.
16:59 Yeah, yeah, we have. I mean, we again signed Rob Dickey in the summer
17:03 from Queen's Park Rangers, and he's been outstanding.
17:07 Not the quickest, not slow, but not the quickest.
17:11 But he's formed a really good partnership with Zach Viner,
17:14 a young lad who, I mean, he's not so young now, but had come up through our academy.
17:18 And they've done really, really well.
17:20 And then on the right, we've got, as I say, George Tanner,
17:23 who was on Man United's books as a youngster.
17:27 He's really good as a one-on-one defender.
17:30 So yeah, defensively, we've been really saying the goalkeepers,
17:34 he needs competition, but he's nailed on number one for us.
17:40 And so it's probably, well, it's without a shadow of a doubt,
17:43 it's what's kept us away from serious relegation problems
17:49 because we just haven't scored enough goals.
17:51 That's where we've really struggled is the other end of the pitch.
17:54 Well, just before we go, Matthew, you said you had a quiz.
17:57 Yeah, so it's to do with former players.
18:01 And I was looking and there are probably about 20-odd players
18:07 that have played for both clubs.
18:09 And I just wondered how many you could name.
18:13 Putting you on the spot, Joe, sorry.
18:15 It's going to be a challenge.
18:17 It's going to be interesting for the listeners to try and think of some.
18:20 Off the top of my head, Bailey Wright.
18:22 Bailey Wright, yeah.
18:24 Yeah, he was very popular, wasn't he, at your place?
18:26 Yeah, he did well.
18:27 He only left officially end of last season.
18:30 He's gone to Singapore.
18:32 Yeah, he was always a good figure.
18:36 Trying to think.
18:39 I mean, some will definitely be before your time.
18:42 Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
18:44 I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
18:46 So a couple of recent ones.
18:48 So Antoine Semenya.
18:50 Oh, yeah.
18:52 Who didn't have the greatest loan spell at yours,
18:54 but has now gone on to do really well.
18:57 Gary Hours.
18:59 I've got to know Gary through our former players association.
19:02 And he's a local.
19:05 He does a lot of the radio broadcast.
19:07 I'm sure he will be at Sunderland doing the broadcast.
19:09 So, yeah, Gary Hours.
19:11 Martin Scott.
19:13 Fullback.
19:15 John Stead.
19:17 Danny Simpson.
19:19 Andy Cole, who was massive for us.
19:22 I know it was towards the end of his career with you.
19:25 And we also had players on loan.
19:27 Stern John we had.
19:29 Adam Matthews played for us.
19:31 Louis Nyatanga.
19:34 Yeah, you've got loads.
19:35 I mean, there's Mick Hartford, Alan Hay, Mike Hooper, goalkeeper.
19:40 Yeah, Stern John.
19:42 John McPhail.
19:45 Tom Ritchie, who's one of our former players.
19:48 Really great guy.
19:49 Yeah, so quite a few there.
19:50 Danny Simpson.
19:51 Yeah.
19:52 John Stead.
19:53 So, yeah, there's about 20-odd players.
19:55 You kind of forget some of them, don't you?
19:56 So, yeah.
19:57 That's a good question.
19:58 I'm sure the listeners would have enjoyed that.
20:00 And hopefully you've got more than me at home.
20:03 Matthew, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the Raw podcast.
20:07 And enjoy the game on Saturday.
20:10 If you like what we do here at the Sunderland Echo,
20:12 you can subscribe to wherever you listen to your podcasts.
20:16 And we will have all the build-up ahead of Saturday's match at Sunderland Face,
20:20 Bristol City.
20:21 You can head over to the SAFC section of the Sunderland Echo website for all the build-up.
20:26 We'll also have updates, analysis and reaction from the Stadium of Light.
20:31 So, once again, thanks a lot for listening to the Raw podcast.
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