Burnley writer Matt Scrafton joins James Copley to preview Sunderland clash
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00:00Hello, welcome to the RAW podcast. My name's James Copley from the Sunderland Echo. Today
00:24I am joined by Matt Scrafton of the Burnley Express who has very kindly agreed to help us
00:30preview the game in the Championship on this Friday. It's a top of the table clash, Matt,
00:35how are you doing? Very well, thanks James, thanks for having me. Yeah, very good,
00:39looking forward to another big game. Yeah, absolutely. How are Burnley shaping up? Because
00:45I think the eye-catching thing from Burnley this season has been the ridiculous statistic that
00:50you've only actually conceded nine goals in the Championship, which is, it's ludicrous really,
00:55it's the 14th of January. Tell us about that. Yeah, it is, and you're right, you use the word
01:00ludicrous, I've been sort of running out of words to describe it. It is a bit crazy really, and it's
01:06sort of, it's strange, it's almost, it's only recently, the last few weeks I've noticed it's
01:09picked up a bit of traction elsewhere, you know, I saw the EFL tweet about it and other clubs
01:12sort of picking up on it. But yeah, nine goals in 26 games, I think that's an average of sort of 0.35
01:18per game I worked out the other day. It's pretty much one goal conceded in every three games,
01:22pretty much worked out as. And to be honest, not that it could be a coincidence, but it's
01:29no coincidence whatsoever, you watch Burnley games and they don't give up chances. I'm sure we'll get
01:34onto it, but at the other end, they don't create a massive, great deal of chances either, but they
01:38do have quality to score at the other end. But yeah, a lot of their games can be quite
01:44stodgy, can be a lot of, there's been quite a few nil-nils, quite a few one-nils as we saw in
01:48the first game between the two sides. But yeah, you look back and you think back in hindsight,
01:55I don't remember like lots of missed chances that other teams have had. It's not like they're lucky
01:59to have nine. If anything, you look at the nine, it could actually be fewer, but that's how good
02:03they've been defensively. It's been scandalous really. And it's not necessarily, you know,
02:08so James Trafford is a very good goalkeeper, but it's not necessarily one person or, you know,
02:12again, they've got good individuals in defence. It's not just the back five. It's the way that
02:16Scott Parker sets them up, which again, I'm sure we'll get onto it. They're very well-structured,
02:20very well-organised. Like I said, it's not by chance. It's not like other teams are
02:26missing lots of chances every week. Even think back to the Sunderland game, which was probably
02:33Burnley's worst performance this season. The Sunderlands were very good for 20, 30 minutes
02:37and got their goal and deservedly got the win. But even for the rest of the game, it wasn't like
02:40Sunderland had lots of clear chances and should have won 2-3-0. And that was the worst Burnley
02:45play this season. And there were reasons behind that, I'm sure we'll get onto as well.
02:49And then the Leeds game as well, they won 1-0 away at Leeds. Leeds didn't really have anything.
02:53They had one sort of chance in the first minute, but apart from that, didn't really have anything.
02:56So it's not like, you know, they have this great record against the lower side. It's also against
03:02Leeds. Blackburn didn't score all the other week. Middlesbury didn't score.
03:06Sheffernatta didn't score. If anything, they're better defensively against the better side as
03:11well because they're so well organised. Yeah, it's interesting that. We'll come on to the
03:16earlier meeting between Sunderland and Burnley just a little bit later. But in terms of that
03:21defensive record, you touched on it. At the other end of the pitch, Burnley have scored the least
03:25goals in the top six with 31. What's the sort of mood within the fan base about that? Because
03:31obviously that defensive record is so exceptional. Are fans sort of pleased with that or would they
03:37like a bit more of an attacking sense? Sort of where are they at under Scott Parker? Because
03:40obviously Burnley are right at the top challenging. But in modern football, we know that style can be
03:45quite important, can't it? Yeah, it's a very good question and it has gone up and down. That's the
03:51mood amongst fans. I mean, it's ironic the season started out with nine goals scored in the first
03:56two games. Four won away at Luton on the opening day and five against Cardiff. And you're thinking,
04:01right, Burnley are going to storm the championship. But at the time, obviously, they basically had the
04:06same squad that was there from the Premier League last season. And in the following week or two,
04:11that was very quickly dismantled before that summing game, which again we'll get on to.
04:17Since then, that works out as only 22 goals scored since those first two games. I think
04:25they scored 31 now. And at first, I think fans were understanding because of that sort of madness
04:33in the transfer market, losing all their best players. And they were very understanding in the
04:37first place about Parker was stressing the need to set those foundations. And there were a lot of
04:41nil-nil draws or one-nil wins. And there were a few games that come to mind. I mean, I think they
04:45beat Portsmouth in the last minute, 93rd minute. It was an awful game, but they got the win and
04:50fans were like, OK, well, we get it. If you're going to grind out wins, we understand.
04:55Then there was a period where I think they scored four in eight games. And again, it was against
05:00not the strongest opposition. They've struggled more this season against
05:04teams that do sit back. They drew nil-nil with Preston, with QPR, with Derby. Those,
05:10not to be critical, but those sorts of teams, lower mid-table teams that are quite happy to
05:14come to turf more and not play for a draw, but will happily take a nil-nil draw if that's what
05:20happens. So there was sort of that month or so where fans were starting to get frustrated. And
05:26you've got to remember as well, the last time Burnley were in the championship, they won the
05:29league with over 100 points under Vincent Kompany playing this lovely flown football. So there was
05:33that inevitable sort of, well, last time we did this, why can't we? Not to say that Burnley fans
05:37were demanding exactly the same, but I think Burnley fans, rightfully so to an extent, were
05:41saying, well, we need to see a bit more than this. Nil-nils against this lower mid-table team,
05:46even if he finished, it gets his own line finish second. As you said, people do want more style
05:51and substance now, don't they? They want a bit more. But to be fair, since then, November,
05:55December onwards, we have seen things begin to click. They have been, they are playing some
06:01better football. The issue was, they've got the players, they've got the quality. The issue was
06:06the patterns of play necessarily wasn't there. It was a lot of sideways passing,
06:09a lot of backwards passing, a lot of keeping the ball, controlling the game, which is,
06:12Scott Parker's really big about controlling games. And I remember when Scott Parker was first
06:16appointed, I spoke to some reporters from Fulham and Bournemouth, and he said, it can be very,
06:22very similar to Gareth Southgate's England when it was very much playing against those, you know,
06:26the qualifiers at Wembley, when it was, we keep the ball and we control games, but it's not the
06:30best watch. But since then, they have clicked. I mentioned the four goals scored in eight games.
06:37They followed that with, in four straight games, they scored twice in each game, which
06:42might not sound like much, you know, I don't know someone's record, but like Leeds, for example,
06:45scored a lot of goals. It might not sound like much, but when you compare it to what it was
06:48come before, it has definitely improved. And then we saw again, sort of over the festive period,
06:53where the same for every club, it's just a grind, isn't it? It's just a really, it's really
06:57difficult. They went, not backwards, but went back to those sort of nil nils and one nils,
07:02just to grind out those results, which again, I think is completely understandable because they
07:07performed really well over the Christmas period. I think they won four and drew two.
07:10So, it's earned those results and earned those points. And, you know, they're the second on the
07:14table on the point of top spot Leeds and top spot. So, it has worked, but it won't be interesting
07:19to see now they've had that little bit of break. Scott Parker rested pretty much all of his first
07:23team players for the FA Cup at the weekend. How that now, they come back refreshed if it's
07:28going to be another sort of stodgy nil nil, one nil either way sort of game, or if they do sort of
07:33refine that, a bit more freedom, a bit more creativity, which we have seen in the last month or so.
07:38Yeah, yeah, definitely. In terms of that first game at the Stadium of Light, which was back in
07:44August, Sunderland won that one nil, Romain Muggle scored, Daniel also got sent off. The squad that
07:50day, there was a lot said about Burnley's squad that day. I take it it's a lot more settled now.
07:54When we played you back in August, there seemed to be a lot of churn and flux, which you've
07:58hinted towards. There were still some multi-million pound players on the pitch, but it
08:03felt very unsettled. I remember Scott Parker in his post-match press conference that day,
08:08he was unsettled. The transfer market was still open. It just felt like Burnley were in a little
08:13bit of a spot where you didn't quite know exactly where it was going to go from there, but obviously
08:18the sins picked up. Exactly that. You summed it up perfectly there. That was the issue there.
08:23I actually looked at the team again this morning just to see what it was, and it wasn't actually
08:29that bad. The start in XI wasn't that bad. The start in XI was fine. As you said, you had the
08:32Josh Cullens, the Josh Brownnils, Lyle Foster, Trin Trafford. It was a fine start in XI,
08:39but there were one or two in there who have since sort of left. I know Massengo has since left on
08:43loan. He's not had a look in. Then the bench, I think, I can't remember the number, but I think
08:48there were three or four youngsters on the bench and they had nothing really. Once it became clear,
08:52they weren't really offering much as the game wore on. There wasn't much to change it off the bench.
08:57So that was the issue. But as you rightly said, the issue wasn't necessarily the team they
09:01selected on the day. It was the lead up to it. As you mentioned, the post-match press conference,
09:06I asked Scott Park about Dara O'Shea, and I remember his demeanour changed completely because
09:12I gather Dara O'Shea was in his plans, was going to start centre-back, as he had done for the
09:17previous couple of games before. He'd started both games and all of a sudden he wasn't in the squad.
09:23I think two days later he's gone to Ipswich. That was just one. I'm sure that lead up to it,
09:30and then the week following, which I think, if my memory serves me right, it's a bit of a blur
09:33now, but I think that following week was the last week of the transfer window, where again...
09:36Yeah, you see it spiking at that point, I remember.
09:38Well, that's the only time Scott Park has been an absolute pleasure to deal with. But that one
09:43time after Sunderland was, and a couple of following, when we sort of followed up on it
09:46and asked what had been going on. But that post-match Sunderland is the one that Burnley
09:50fans often look back on as well. But that's the one time that Scott Park has really come across as
09:55not spiky, because I thought he answered the question fine, but you clearly see he had some
09:58emotion pent up and he had a lot of frustration pent up. But yeah, you look at the summer transfer
10:04window in total, I think, I can't remember the numbers, but I think 18 came in and 20 left.
10:09So it was a chaotic window, but it all came to a head in those sort of two weeks and the Sunderland
10:14game came right in the middle of it. So that's a good excuse, because like I said, I think the
10:18Burnley team that started the game could have got a result there, could have easily got a draw
10:21and then grinded out a win. But they didn't turn up on the day and Sunderland deservedly won.
10:26But yeah, there were plenty of factors behind it. Whereas now on Friday night, they're a lot more
10:31settled, completely settled. And even though they do a business in the transfer window,
10:35it's a lot more sort of under control and planned, let's say. Whereas back then for the Sunderland
10:41game, it was just reacting to what was happening because players were leaving their front centre,
10:44players were sort of saying, we don't want to play for Burnley, we don't want to be here,
10:49basically. And Parker was quite stressed that quite a few times where he said, we only want
10:52players that want to be here. And that's the situation now. They've got a lot more settled
10:57team and players that actually want to play for the club.
11:00It's very interesting that the spot that those two teams were in back then, Sunderland were sort of
11:06tentatively discovering themselves as a squad under a new manager, Reggie Slippery.
11:10I would say they've probably progressed from there. Obviously, they've added a few more
11:15attacking threats. They're a bit more stable in the formations and tactics. Reggie Slippery
11:20often talks about his game plan. I think that's pretty, pretty solid. Now they've added a few
11:25facets to the game that can go 4-3-3, 4-4-2. So I'm very interested in this game. And I guess
11:31what makes it fascinating, really, in a sense, Matt, is that it is a top of the table clash.
11:37You know, it could tell us a lot about who's got the minerals to go and get automatic promotion.
11:42It could mean a lot come the end of the season. But the two teams actually are in pretty different
11:47places from where they were in August. Yeah, I'd say it'll be a completely different game.
11:51I think the scoreline will be fairly similar. I think it'll be, you know, there won't be many
11:55goals, I don't think. But I think it will be a completely different game. In terms of individuals,
11:59Burnley look very different. I'm sure Sunderland do as well, but they look very different.
12:03But yeah, I think Burnley fans will be very confident. Their record against the top sides,
12:08apart from that one game, again, which they were extenuating some circumstances. As I said,
12:13they've beaten both Leeds and Cheshire United away. The only teams to beat them at their home
12:17ground this season. And did it very well, did it without conceding the goal. Drew with Middlesbrough
12:23probably should have won that just after Christmas, probably should have won that one. But then they
12:26followed it up with a win in the Derby at Eatwood Park at the start of January. So yeah, the record
12:32in that summer game is very good. And I think Burnley actually are at their best when they're
12:37playing against these top sides. Because defensively, they gave nothing away. And then they
12:41do have that quality at the other end, especially with Josh Brownhill, top goalscorer of nine for
12:45midfield. He seems to be the one that gets on the end of these crosses in, these chances. He's the
12:50one that seems to make some decisive moments in these big games. Let's talk about Josh Brownhill,
12:57because I made a note of him coming into the game and the podcast. Obviously,
13:02you mentioned the nine goals, but obviously three assists there. It's a fantastic return,
13:06really. Obviously, he was bought for quite a bit of money and he's been through
13:12the Premier League relegation season with Burnley as well. Were you expecting him to leave in the
13:16summer? Has he had suitors elsewhere? Was it a bit of a coup to keep hold of him? Because he
13:21seems to cut above, really, in terms of his numbers. Yeah, there's constant talk about him.
13:27He's out of contract at the end of the season, so there's constant talk. And obviously,
13:30linking with teams abroad, who can obviously agree a pre-contract agreement now with Ascot
13:39Park about it. Obviously, he wants to tie Josh Brownhill down, but I think he's well on his
13:43rights to see how it goes. Because it depends, obviously, on what happens in the next four or
13:48five months, if they get promoted or not. Because he's more than capable of playing in the Premier
13:53League, although he's sort of, ironically, one of those yo-yo players, similar to how
13:57Burnley are a bit of a yo-yo club. He's too good for the Championship. In the Premier League,
14:01I'm not saying he's not good for the Premier League, he is good enough for the Premier League,
14:04but he's really too good for the Championship. And in the Premier League, teams like West Ham
14:09have been linked. But you do think, would he be a regular start at West Ham? I'm not sure.
14:13Because obviously, they'll have a lot of quality and they've got the ability to bring in
14:16players with big fees as well. But he's an interesting player, Josh, because there was
14:21a period where, it's quite ironic, some Burnley fans, again, it's social media, so you use it
14:28with an asterisk. I'm sure we all see lots of silly comments, but people said,
14:31just Josh Brown will bring enough to the overall play, the build-up play, the link-up play. He's
14:36not really bringing much. To be fair, that's not necessarily his eating. He's a quality player.
14:41He's technically very good. But his ability, his strength is getting on the end of those crosses,
14:46being the person at the back post, sticking ahead. You might not notice him for the whole
14:50game, but then he'll be the man that decides the game. And that says it all. And when you read out
14:54his numbers, we can't really argue that, especially when Burnley don't really have many goals coming
14:59from elsewhere. They can't really afford to be sticking a player of his quality on the bench.
15:05Just moving back to the game on Friday, what are you expecting in terms of style and the way that
15:10these two teams will mesh? I ask this question because it's sort of a little bit of irony,
15:15really, isn't it? The sense that Burnley came up to the Stadium of Light,
15:19they had the majority of the possession, Sunderland got the goal and they grounded out with a really
15:25quite admirable defensive performance. Now, it seems that that shoe is on the other foot now.
15:29Sunderland are the scorers, Burnley are the good defensive unit. However, you have to take into
15:34account that Burnley are at home as well. So just thinking about how this game is going to go down,
15:39I'm not necessarily sure. Sunderland have shown in games that they're willing to give up possession,
15:45particularly away from home, but they will try and get teams on the counter and have a goal,
15:49reduce the breeze and attack a manager, I would say. So I'm intrigued, actually, to be honest.
15:54Yeah, I'd imagine that would be the case, especially with Burnley at home. I think they
15:57will look to control the game, but perhaps not as extreme as it has been at times when I touched
16:02upon that period where it was a lot of dominance of the ball. I can't quote exact gains, but I
16:08would often look at possession stats during the game and it would be over 70%. It's not quite as
16:12extreme as that now. It has dipped down a little bit. So they will look to control the game, but
16:16not for the sake of having the ball, but just for the sake of it, basically. But they might give up
16:21the odd chance on the counter to risk scoring a goal themselves. They have relented a little bit,
16:26but again, it's not like these chance on the counter attacks are a player from four yards
16:32out. It's not like it's a clear-cut chance every game. But there's perhaps a blueprint,
16:37I'm not giving too much away, but Middlesbrough at the start of December,
16:42they played out 1-1 draw at Turf Moor, but they did cause a few problems on the counter. They
16:47did pose one or two questions. So there's definitely something there for someone where
16:51they can have some success. But yeah, I'd imagine Burnley set up with the same formation every game.
16:57It's a 4-2-3-1 every game. The start lineups are pretty predictable. I mean, there's one or two
17:02question marks this week. Obviously, I think one or two players, well, quite a few players
17:06impressed in the FA Cup against Reading when they made all 11 changes and maybe
17:10didn't come in. Hannibal suspended. So there's a question mark if he will play on the left wing.
17:14But apart from that, it's been nailed down who will play. So I'm not saying Burnley will be
17:19predictable, but I think, yeah, there won't be too many surprises in their starting lineup. And
17:23the way they set up will be, we'll try and control the ball, control the game, take the sting out of
17:27it and create chances when they can. And reading between the lines of what you've just said there
17:34and having had a little look at Burnley, it doesn't appear that there's too many injury
17:38issues at the moment either. No, it's finally clearing up. They have been all season. They've
17:43been at one point 10 or 11, but it was consistently around the seven or eight mark. But it's now down
17:49to four or five, I think, Hannibal suspended. And I think there's four, some really good players in
17:55there to be fair, players that haven't played all season, been out with long-term injuries, people like
17:58Aaron Ramsey, who was a really big success with Middlesbrough last time in the Championship. He
18:04sort of got picked a big injury in the Premier League last season, not been seen since January
18:07or February last season. He would be a big difference in the final third. But again,
18:12Josh Browner plays at number 10. So it'll be interesting when he is fixed. I think he's
18:15getting closer where he plays because Josh Brown has that position nailed down. But Nathan Redmond,
18:20who's still only 30, you think of him as a really sort of experienced player, which he is, but
18:25he can still bring a lot. And it's that sort of final third with Bernie Hall looking in the
18:29transfer window, as we've seen a few days with Morgan Whittaker being linked. It is that sort of
18:34players on the wing, perhaps up front, where they do need to strengthen. And Manuel Benson,
18:38who had a massive impact on the Vincent Kompany promotion season. So players like that,
18:45they're all sort of in training, but been in training for a while. So it depends how close
18:49they are. But apart from that, it's finally cleared up and it's not as bad as it was.
18:56You look at Bernie's bench, and there has been times this season where we looked at the bench,
18:59it's not been the strongest. He hasn't made that many changes, Scott Parker, because there's not
19:03nothing really to decide the game. If all of a sudden you've got people like Matt Trezor,
19:07who came back into Reading at the weekend, and Manuel Benson and Nathan Redmond and players
19:10like that to turn to, then they're looking very, very strong for the second half of the season.
19:16Morgan Whittaker, a player you mentioned there, I was interested to see that link arise. Obviously,
19:21Burnley have apparently made an approach to Plymouth Argyll. He's a player linked with
19:26Sunderland previously, I think a couple of years ago. How likely is that to happen? And is that
19:30the area in which Scott Parker's looking for his attack and reinforcements? I did notice as well
19:36that the link with John Jo Shelvey as well, training with the club, potentially a free
19:40transfer. What's the latest in terms of Burnley and transfers at the moment?
19:44Yeah, they're the two standout ones, really. Burnley in that position of luxury, really,
19:49where they've got one or two spaces free where they can add, and I'm sure they will look to add.
19:54But even if a surprise happens and nothing happens, there's a window, they're still not
19:58very strong. They're strengthening from position of strength already, so they're going to add
20:02to what they've already got. John Jo Shelvey, yeah, it came out over a week ago that he was
20:08training with the club and looking for a free transfer. He's recently departed
20:14his club in Turkey where he'd only made six appearances. So, I asked Scott Parker about
20:18that after the game on Saturday and he confirmed that, yeah, we're taking a look at him. It didn't
20:21seem as definitive as the reports had made out. The reports suggested it was something that was
20:25already a done deal. He said, yeah, we'll take a look at him training. I did ask about his fitness
20:30because he's not played much this season. He said, yeah, he looks fine. That's one area where
20:35they could look to strengthen because they do have four central midfielders for three positions
20:40because they play the two deep and then Josh Brown just ahead. With Hannibal suspended as well,
20:45they are a bit light in that area of the pitch. So, if they could add someone like John Jo Shelvey,
20:50who, you know, as much quality as he's got, he wouldn't be guaranteed to start every game
20:53because they've got Josh Cullen, who's a regular starter, and Josh Laronne, who's done really well
20:57since coming from Stoke in the summer, and then Brown are just ahead. So, he would be one that
21:01maybe we could rotate with Josh Laronne. But again, he's the sort of player that you think
21:05they probably need because he could unlock a defence with, you know, those sort of trademark
21:09balls and, you know, he has a bit of creativity that they need. And then the Morgan Whitaker one
21:13is a predictable one, really. Burnley tried to sign him in the summer, very late on. Again,
21:19just as a summer game, I think it was, very late on, last day or two at the window. Couldn't get
21:23it over the line. Basically, you know, Wayne Rooney at the time said, you know, we're not
21:27sending our best player, you know, with his last minute in the window. We're not going to replace
21:31him. And I think they're in a similar situation this time around, even though there's still a
21:34couple of weeks to go. We all know the sort of struggles Plymouth have had this season.
21:39They're right in mind in the relegation battle. Are they going to give up Morgan Whitaker
21:45without a fight? I don't see it. I think, you know, the reports, especially from the Plymouth
21:49end, suggest Burnley's bid is well below their valuation. I think they're looking for sort of
21:53over 10 million. Will Burnley go that high in January? I'm not sure. I'd imagine they'll go
21:58back in for him. It won't just be just one bid and that'll be it. I'd imagine they'll go back
22:02in for him and test the water. But, you know, I think Plymouth will definitely fight it. But,
22:08yeah, that's the sort of player that Burnley needs. That central midfielder and that player,
22:11especially a Morgan Whitaker, probably out on the left. So I think Jadon Anson has done really well
22:16on the right wing. He's someone that Scott Parker really likes. He had him at Bournemouth as well.
22:20He really likes him. He's done really well and he's a reliable player. He's always fit. I can't
22:25remember any games he's missed due to injury. So he's a regular starter. But it's that one on the
22:28left where Luka Kolyosha, who is a very talented player but still only 19, 20, I think he is,
22:33and his form has been up and down. So if they can strengthen that on that left wing,
22:37that's what they'll look to do over the next couple of weeks. I was having a look at Burnley's
22:43wider squad before the podcast and one name that jumped out at me, which I'd forgotten was actually
22:48at Burnley, was John Egan. Obviously a former Sunderland player who came up through Sunderland's
22:51academy. I don't think he actually played a minute of senior football for us. But I noticed he's only
22:56got 162 minutes in the Championship. And I asked this question because I remember when Burnley
23:00signed him, I think it was in the summer, after his Sheffield United contract came to an end.
23:05I thought, oh, that's a signing that could make a difference. Experienced, obviously,
23:08played a lot in the Premier League. I sort of just expected him to be a regular starter for
23:12Burnley, but it hasn't happened. And I had a little look through the games and he's been on
23:15the bench quite a lot, hasn't he? So it's not an injury that's kept him out. What's been the
23:18situation with him? Yeah, he's done nothing wrong, absolutely nothing wrong. But at the same time,
23:24he can have no complaints because the two ahead of him have just been absolutely brilliant.
23:29Maxime Esteve, left-sided centre-half, Frenchman, brought in last January in the Premier League.
23:34He was absolutely brilliant in the Premier League and he's dropped down to the Championship and
23:37they expected him to leave before the season got underway. He's too good for the Championship,
23:41really. A very composed, calm player. He's got quality on the ball. He's a definite starter.
23:48And then the position next to him was the question mark and it was Joe Worrell, another
23:52quality player, who started the season after signing from Nottingham Forest.
23:56Obviously, he got promoted with Forest. In that first season, he did play in the Premier League
23:59with Forest, but then sort of dropped out last season. Joe Worrell can consider himself very
24:03unlucky not to play more often as well. He's got two very good centre-backs in reserve there.
24:08But then he picked up just a short injury at the start of the season with CJ Egan-Rielly,
24:12which has been sort of the story of Burnley's season, really, because he wasn't fancied by
24:16Vincent Kompany last season. He's been out of it. He's been out on loan with Hibs and in Holland
24:20not in PSV. It was the young PSV team. And by all accounts, I don't remember hearing a great deal.
24:29I don't think he put up any major trees, but then came back, got his opportunity when Worrell picked
24:34up a slight injury. And he's been Burnley's player of the season. He's been the best player.
24:39He's been the story of their season. And now, all of a sudden, he's that contractor. Now,
24:43the story is we can't afford to lose him. When it was only four or five months ago,
24:47Burnley fans probably didn't even remember that he stood at the club because he would have been
24:50fifth or sixth choice in the second order. Now, it's him and Maxime Esteve. And Scott Parker has
24:56talked about John Egan and Joe Worrell, two centre-backs that are absolute quality for this
25:00division. But he almost got quite emotional. He feels very sorry for these two players.
25:05Any other season, any other club, probably, they would be regular starters. But I'm sure
25:10they understand as well. They look at these two centre-backs. They're part of a defence that
25:13conceded nine goals this season. And I think it's even numbers even more ridiculous. Between the two
25:20of them, when they started at Egan and Worrell, they conceded six goals between the two of them.
25:25So, yeah, they're very lucky to have these options. And we saw them together against
25:31Wedding. They picked up on Saturday and they were both absolute quality, as you'd imagine. So,
25:35yeah, if Burnley do pick up a knock on issue there, they've got two very good players. But
25:40I don't think they can have too many complaints because the two that are ahead of them have been
25:44supreme. Yeah, you don't have much ammunition, do you, really, if you're Worrell or Egan knocking
25:49on Scott Parker's door? It's a pretty short conversation, isn't it? I would like to play
25:53well and we've already conceded nine goals. End of discussion. Just quickly, Matt, before we round
25:58off, who worries you from a Sunderland point of view? Having seen Sunderland a little bit,
26:02obviously not as regularly as Burnley, but just generally, who would be the danger meant for you?
26:07I can't remember. Was it Rick who scored the goal in the first half? I can't remember.
26:11It was Romain Mundell.
26:12I think it was. Oh, it was Mundell.
26:14Yeah, it was Romain Mundell. But Rick played and had a very decent game. But Mundell's actually
26:19injured now, so he won't be available.
26:21Yeah, I was going to say Rick was the one that probably impressed me the most. I thought from
26:25that first game, from what we could take from one game, I was really impressed with the first
26:3020, 30 minutes, the energy levels. I know Sunderland is made of their youngsters and
26:34the youth and their energy. And that was sort of noticeable, that first 20, 30 minutes,
26:38Burnley couldn't handle it. And that's probably the most we've seen Burnley sort of come under
26:43pressure and not know how to handle a situation. They come under pressure in other games, but
26:47they come through it fine. And that first 20, 30 minutes at the Stadium of Light,
26:50I was really impressed. And then they got the goal. And as you said before,
26:54the rest of the game was a bit of nothingness, really, because they sort it out without too
26:57many issues. But yeah, Chris Jigg was the player that stood out for me with his energy.
27:02Again, I can't remember. I know a lot was made of Joby Bellingham because of his brother and
27:07because of his name. I've only seen that one game from him, so I can't say too much. Obviously,
27:11he's a name that you think of when you see Sunderland start in XI. So I'd probably pinpoint
27:17those two and just see how Bellingham does on Friday night against people like Josh Cullen,
27:21Josh Browning, who have been there, done it in the Championship, see how he fares.
27:26Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just lastly, what's your sort of gut feeling heading into this game?
27:32And I guess for the rest of the Championship season, do you feel Burnley will perform against
27:37Sunderland and get the win? And more generally, does this feel like a promotion season to you?
27:42I think it does, yeah. I think, as I've touched on a few times, there was that
27:46sort of October period where it was unsure. It felt like it would probably be third or fourth.
27:51I think since then, they've really kicked on. They're going to strengthen in January. They're
27:56signing players from a position of strength now. They've got quality. They've got strength and
27:59depth. They've proved against the best sides in the league. It leads to the Sheffield United
28:04that they can win, beat them. It's quite interesting they've got Leeds coming up as
28:09well at home this month. It's a really big month for them. But yeah, I'm quite confident. At one
28:14point, I didn't think it would be Leeds first and then one other, probably Sheffield United or
28:17Burnley or Sunderland, one of those, one from three. But since the last five, six weeks, I'm
28:23very confident that Burnley will get the job done. I think Scott Parker's been there, he's done it
28:27twice. He just seems to have moulded a team that, even though it's quite a young team compared to
28:31how it was before all the signings in the summer, they've got a know-how about them. They've got an
28:37experience. They manage games very well. They just seem like a team and a squad set up for
28:43promotion. Everything's there. All the greens are there. They just need to go out and do it,
28:46and they're doing it at the moment. And as for the game on Friday, I think it'll be a typical
28:50Burnley game. It'll be a 0-0 or a 1-0. So I'll go for 1-0 with Josh Brown there being the
28:55decisive factor. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's another 0-0. I think they've had
28:59six or seven already this season, so it will be tight. I'd be surprised if there's
29:06sort of more than... It might be a 1-1, but I can't imagine any more than that. I think
29:11no team in the Championship this season has scored more than once against them. So
29:14I'd be surprised. I know some of them are a good team, but I'd be surprised if that changes
29:18for Burnley this week... Friday night, sorry. Oh, very interesting indeed. Well, I wish you luck,
29:24Matt, but not too much luck, obviously, because I would quite like Sunderland to
29:28go and get the job done. Thanks to everybody for joining. Matt, just tell us where we can
29:32find your work, if we'd like to read about how Burnley are shaping up before the game.
29:37Yeah, all on the Burnley Express website. Plenty of content on there on Twitter or X,
29:41or whatever you want to call it now, under Matt on Scorcecraft and on X as well. So,
29:46yeah, plenty of content on there ahead of the big game.
29:49Well, thank you very much. Cheers for joining us, Matt. You can also find all of the latest
29:53Sunderland news over the Sunderland Echo website, and thank you very much for watching.