Stoke Live writer Pete Smith helps James Copley preview Sunderland vs Stoke City in FA Cup
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00:00Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sun and Echo.
00:25My name's James Copley.
00:26Today we're going to be previewing the game against Stoke City in the FA Cup.
00:31We did used to do this fairly regularly.
00:34My colleague Joe used to do it quite often, but he's since left us, he's gone on to be
00:37a teacher.
00:38So we've had trouble getting the start again, but we'll start with the excellent Pete Smith
00:43from Stoke Live.
00:44Pete, how are you doing?
00:45Yeah, I'm all right.
00:47I didn't realise Joe had got out of it into the real world.
00:51Yeah, he still keeps his toe in.
00:54He still covers the Audair Middlesbrough game every now and again, but yeah, he's a big
00:58miss.
00:59We'll move right into it, Pete, in terms of the game against Stoke City.
01:03Third meeting between the two sides already this season, which seems crazy to say.
01:08Three different managers as well, Sunderland, will have faced.
01:12What's it been like for you?
01:13I mean, it looks from the outside, looking in like a bit of a rollercoaster at the moment
01:17covering Stoke City.
01:18Remember, at the start of this one, before the first game, your manager was saying that
01:23he was going to become friends with the Stoke manager by the end of these three matches.
01:27He's faced three different ones.
01:29Yeah, it's been a rollercoaster.
01:30I've written a line this morning, which I thought kind of sums it up.
01:34There's been no stability, obviously, at Stoke for the last few years, and it's kind of circular.
01:42You can't have success without stability, and you can't have stability without enough
01:47success along the way.
01:49There's not been enough from any of the managers who've come and gone to give them more time
01:54than they've had.
01:55I don't think too many of them would really complain that they haven't been given enough
01:58time or the board hasn't been patient enough.
02:01Stephen Schumacher is one of them, but from everything you hear about inside the club,
02:07I think the reaction inside the club was less surprised than the outside world to when he left.
02:14The last couple of weeks have been, as you say, quite dramatic.
02:18Narcisse Pallett had only been there three months, but he'd overseen 19 games during
02:23those three months, because it's the championship, of course.
02:27They were getting worse rather than getting better, and his answers were becoming more
02:32about the transfer window than what he could do to fix the problems that Stoke were having.
02:39So I think the writing was on the wall, really, for him.
02:43Ryan Shawcross came in, club legend, and he got Stoke playing immediately better than
02:47they were playing previously, as you saw in the Sunderland game at home, where they could
02:52have lost it easily, but they were determined to go for the win as well.
02:56I've just seen the XG from that game, and Sunderland were very unlucky, but Stoke had
03:01a go, and that's what the fans were crying out for.
03:04Then they got a really creditable draw at Burnley.
03:06Mark Robbins has come in, and we all know Mark Robbins.
03:11Everyone who's been around the championship beat, experienced manager, talk sense, seems
03:17like a really sensible appointment.
03:19We've said that previously at Stoke, but fingers crossed they're due to get one right sooner
03:23or later.
03:24They're having enough go at it.
03:26Just philosophically, and I understand that this is a really, really hard question to
03:31answer in a short way, but what has gone wrong at Stoke?
03:35Can you put your finger on it, because just looking at some of your former managers, Alex
03:39Sunderland fans know quite well, Michael O'Neill, Stephen Schumacher.
03:43These aren't bad managers.
03:45What has gone wrong at Stoke?
03:46There's investment there from the Coates family.
03:48There's seemingly a half-decent structure as well, and it just never seems to click.
03:53Yeah, well, I mean, how long have you got, James?
03:56If I asked you why Sunderland haven't been in the Premier League for the past few years,
03:59then I'm sure you'd be here for the rest of the week.
04:02What it boils down to, I guess, same as at Sunderland, it's always recruitment, making
04:07sure that you've got players who are good enough to have a real shot at getting out
04:10of this wretched division.
04:12At Stoke, they've got it wrong more often than they should have done over the past seven
04:17or eight years, and unfortunately, you mentioned how the opportunity at Stoke with the billionaire
04:23backers who are prepared to support any manager, that also means that when they get it wrong,
04:28they've probably got more scope to get it really wrong.
04:31If you look at the summer of 2018, they had Gary Rowett, and they spent about £50 million
04:37on transfers, and I'm sure me and you, just sitting watching the Championship every week,
04:41if you gave us £50 million to spend, we could have a really good go at building a squad
04:45to get out of the division.
04:47But Stoke got it spectacularly wrong, and because of financial fair play rules,
04:53the next three, four years, we're all just recovering from that bad summer,
05:00and trying to build a better squad with less money.
05:03So there's always been that kind of challenge.
05:05And Alex Neil came in, as you say, he's got a decent track record,
05:09he'd done really well at Sunderland in that short time,
05:12but Stoke gave him a challenge that he hadn't really had anywhere else in his career,
05:16because he knew at the end of that first season that he was going to get the chance
05:20to completely rebuild, overhaul the squad.
05:22And he brought in 19 players, and he hasn't really, no manager really does that,
05:27it's Championship manager kind of stuff, and it was a whole new scenario for him,
05:32and I think it'd be really interesting to look back, talking to him now,
05:36at what he got wrong, and what he could have done differently,
05:40because Stoke brought in 19 players, and they don't know further along
05:44than they were previously.
05:46So yeah, it's a different challenge for every manager,
05:50but Mark Robbins hopefully is someone who's been around the block,
05:54seen it all, and can take on anything that's thrown at him.
05:58In fact, sorry, just to wrap up this question,
06:02I said to him at the press conference last week when he joined
06:05that Stoke has been described as an impossible job,
06:08but looking at what he had taken on at Coventry, being kicked out of their stadium,
06:13their ownership problems, and everything that they faced,
06:16he hauled them from League Two to the Premier League,
06:20so he must laugh when people call Stoke an impossible job.
06:24It's not, they just need the right man to be able to fix it.
06:27Yeah, absolutely. We'll move on to Mark Robbins in a second
06:30in his first game against Plymouth Argyll,
06:33but from sort of a professional, personal standpoint,
06:36how did you find Alex Neil?
06:38Because he definitely blotted his copybook by the way that he left Sunderland,
06:42but sitting in on some of his press conferences,
06:45like a really engaging, sort of fiery, prickly character,
06:49what was it like for you?
06:51Well, that's what I was expecting, but completely different to what I got.
06:54He was really charming and friendly.
06:56There was only, it's a small beat at Stoke,
06:59there's myself and Radio Stoke and a couple of other people,
07:02and he got to know us really well.
07:04He was always friendly with us, always stayed to chat about football,
07:09loved talking about football.
07:13Yeah, you could see that he was desperate to be the man who solved it at Stoke,
07:18and he threw everything at it.
07:21I remember talking to him about six months in,
07:24and he said he'd done more at Stoke in those six months
07:27than he'd done in four and a half years at Preston.
07:29He was that busy, and it was a real shame that it didn't work,
07:33because he suddenly gave it everything.
07:36And right until the final week,
07:38he was really convinced that it was going to work,
07:41and every time I could throw him a difficult question,
07:44and afterwards he'd just say,
07:46calm down Pete, it's going to be all right,
07:49everything's going to be fine.
07:51And then in the last week before he was sacked,
07:54you could just tell that the switch had been flicked,
07:58and he suddenly realised that he was on his way out.
08:03And he seemed really heartbroken by it.
08:05I'm sure he'll get a lot of sympathy from some loving fans about that.
08:10No, I really liked Alex Neil in terms of what he did for the club.
08:13Yes, the way he left did leave a sour taste,
08:15but he got us promoted out of League One,
08:17which is a godforsaken place, to be brutally honest with you.
08:19So I'll always be grateful.
08:21You've got to get that out of your head.
08:23Yes, I know, I'll always be sort of grateful for him about that.
08:27So just in terms of this game on Saturday,
08:30it sort of takes on added importance, doesn't it, for Mark Robbins?
08:33He's had his first game against Plymouth Argyll,
08:36which was a draw in the Championship.
08:38You want to get off to the best possible start,
08:40managers want to get momentum going.
08:42What are we expecting from this game?
08:45He got Coventry to the semi-final last year as well,
08:48so he knows how much fun you can have in this composition, that's for sure.
08:52And I think it's really close in the bottom half of the Championship.
08:56You won't have looked under the mid-table for a while,
08:59but it's really close.
09:00I did have a look this morning to see where he was.
09:03But then there's a buffer between the 13th, I think it's Millwall on 13th,
09:08and there's a buffer to 12th.
09:10If Stoke can stay up, then the season's dead.
09:13They've got to stay up first, that's obviously really important.
09:16But if they can do enough to just keep away from the danger zone,
09:21then a good cup run would go a long way to keeping the season alive
09:26in a good way, in a positive way.
09:29It's a really tough game for Stoke, we know it.
09:34But yeah, you're right, I think there's more riding on it
09:37because there's a new manager,
09:38and he'd love to bring a bit of positive momentum with him
09:42It's a chance, I'm sure, for players as well to prove themselves to him.
09:46Everybody's a clean slate for everybody, isn't it?
09:49If they can go and put on a performance at Sunderland,
09:52then they can make themselves a steady pick for Moorabbins.
10:00It's interesting from a Sunderland perspective,
10:02because we're obviously three points off top now.
10:04We've got that little buffer to seventh place,
10:07which I think is 11 points.
10:10Regis Lebrie has used sort of 11, 12, 13 players pretty consistently.
10:15We've picked up a lot of injuries, especially over the Christmas period.
10:19I think he's probably likely to pretty heavily rest and rotate players.
10:23I don't think you're going to see the likes of Joe Bellingham
10:25or Wilson Isidore, Patrick Roberts.
10:27I think they'll all drop out.
10:28There'll be an opportunity for some fringe players,
10:30I think some young players as well, maybe Naz Roosen,
10:34maybe a debut for Trey Ogunsui, who's very highly rated.
10:38But in terms of Stoke City's line-up,
10:40do you think Mark Robbins will go strong with that in mind,
10:43what you've just said?
10:46Yeah, I mean, we're not in a position to be able to second-guess him
10:49too much at this stage.
10:52Yeah, it'll be interesting.
10:54But Stoke have barely used many players over the Christmas period.
10:58I think they've had the same starting 11 for two, three games,
11:02and just only made one change on Saturday against Plymouth.
11:07So there's a chance maybe he might change a couple of things,
11:10but I'd imagine that he'd go reasonably strong.
11:15There's a couple of players who would fancy coming in
11:18to prove themselves, players who are closer to the team than others.
11:22But I should imagine it will be pretty close to what we've seen
11:25in recent weeks.
11:27And obviously very early days, but what were your thoughts
11:31on Mark Robbins' style of play against Plymouth?
11:33How did that game go down?
11:34Were the green shoots an encouragement?
11:36Anything sort of new or different to the previous regime?
11:40Well, Plymouth was a very different game to the Sunderland game.
11:43The Sunderland game was so open, wasn't it?
11:45It was really end-to-end.
11:47Whereas Plymouth came and they played a 5-4-1,
11:50but it was pretty much a 10-0-0.
11:56And Stoke couldn't break them down.
11:58Stoke's strength is their ability in transition
12:02and the pace they can break at.
12:04There was no space behind Plymouth to attack.
12:09I don't expect Sunderland will sit back on Saturday.
12:11So it should be quite an entertaining game.
12:13Hopefully Stoke will go for it.
12:15It's going to be all sold on the day, isn't it?
12:19There's no point hanging on for anything.
12:21It should be an interesting game and very different
12:25to the one we saw last weekend.
12:28Absolutely. And what did you make?
12:30Just to throw it back a little bit,
12:32what did you make of that last game?
12:34Obviously, Sunderland-Stoke at the Bet365 Stadium.
12:37I actually thought Sunderland were probably worthy of a point.
12:40Perhaps should have nicked it as well, obviously,
12:43with a late goal coming.
12:45But from a Stoke point of view, I actually thought
12:47that there was some really, really positive stuff on display.
12:50I actually thought it was a team that were compact at times.
12:53They were clearly working for Ryan Shawcross at the time.
12:57They were clearly working for themselves.
12:59I thought the fans were excellent in getting behind them.
13:01I actually came away from the game thinking
13:03there's a little bit of a platform here
13:05for whoever comes in and can get it right.
13:08Yes, that's right.
13:10It'll be interesting to see if Stoke can solve it
13:12in different games against teams who don't come at them,
13:16how they can beat them, the kind of side they face
13:20in Plymouth on Saturday.
13:22But you're right, I think they've got a group in there
13:24that will work for the manager.
13:26There's no bad eggs, it doesn't seem like.
13:29And it's really young.
13:31They've got some skilful players.
13:33The last manager in Narcisse Pallace made the point
13:35that Stoke and Sunderland have got quite a similar
13:37average age.
13:39But it seems like when you've got a young team
13:41that the highs are higher and the lows are lower.
13:43And in the last couple of months,
13:47Stoke have gotten a bit of a rut
13:49and these young players haven't been able
13:51to find their way out of it.
13:53So it would be interesting if Sunderland
13:56got on a bad run, how these young players
13:58were able to turn it around.
14:00But likewise...
14:02We had that last year.
14:04It can run away with you, you can't say it suddenly.
14:06It can, it can.
14:08If Stoke get a bit of momentum
14:10and they remember how to win games,
14:14then who knows?
14:16This division isn't great shakes at times
14:18and there's certainly enough teams
14:20to be able to pick points up against.
14:22So, yeah, there is a platform
14:24for Mark Robbins to work on.
14:26He's got an important couple of bits
14:28of transfer business, I think, this month
14:30just to make sure that they've got enough
14:32in the changing room not to keep looking
14:34over their shoulder.
14:36But if you have the right players around
14:38then we've got players like Bejan Howe
14:40and Tom Cannon who can raise their game
14:42with the right teammates, I think.
14:44I was just about to ask about Tom Cannon actually
14:46because Sunderland had placed a couple of bids
14:48for him in the summer.
14:50He ended up joining Stoke City on loan
14:52from Leicester City.
14:54I'm always impressed when I watch him.
14:56I thought he was good at the Bet365.
14:58He obviously got the winner as well.
15:00I thought he was a threat.
15:02How important has he been?
15:04Because he seems to guarantee goals
15:06at this level, doesn't he?
15:08Yeah, I think he would probably say
15:10that he should have got more.
15:12What I've liked about him in recent weeks
15:14is that he's been really aggressive
15:16and he makes sure that centre-backs
15:18know that they're in a game.
15:21He'd had a couple of games at Leicester
15:23but he'd had a bit of time out injured
15:25with a back problem and a bit of time
15:27on their bench.
15:29So it took him a little bit of time to get up to speed.
15:31And he's still not quite the Tom Cannon
15:33I think that we can expect
15:35but I think there's a real player in there.
15:37And if you look at players who've gone out
15:39on loan from the Premier League to anywhere
15:41this season, there aren't many who've scored
15:43goals regularly.
15:45Louis Barry from Villiers to Stockport
15:47who's been recalled.
15:49He's on double figures in League and Cup
15:51and over the last
15:5515 years
15:57Stoke have really struggled
15:59to have a striker who scores
16:01regularly, whether
16:03it's been on loan or permanently
16:05or coming through the system
16:07to break that cycle
16:09has been really important.
16:11We know Leicester can recall him this month
16:13but there was a lot of competition
16:15for him in the summer
16:17and he chose to come to Stoke.
16:19I think it suits him geographically
16:21and he's playing
16:23every week. I think he's getting better.
16:25So I'd be surprised
16:27if he was recalled to be sent anywhere
16:29else on loan.
16:31If Leicester had a big bid
16:33then you never know
16:35but they had £10-12 million
16:37on the table in August
16:39and he ended up
16:41coming out on loan anyway.
16:43So at the moment I'd say it was
16:46unlikely. I'd expect him to stay at Stoke
16:48for the next few months
16:50and certainly that's what Mark Robbins will be hoping to.
16:52Do you think that price tag
16:54probably makes it unlikely that he would sign
16:56for Stoke in the summer
16:58or is that something that if it goes well under Mark Robbins
17:00could be done?
17:02Stoke can't afford to spend
17:04£10 million
17:06£5 million on a league player at the moment
17:08because of financial fair play
17:10but the financial fair play rules are going to change
17:12so how quickly that happens
17:14will dictate everything
17:16I guess.
17:18At the moment I can't really imagine
17:20a promoted team
17:22taking a punt on Canon
17:24a parachute team maybe
17:26maybe Sheff United
17:28but there's a small pool
17:30of clubs I think who are in a position
17:32to both be able to afford him
17:34and be able to offer
17:36the game time that he wants.
17:38Absolutely.
17:40How's Lyndon Gooch been getting on at the club recently?
17:42Former Sunderland.
17:44He's only got about six months left on his deal
17:46what's the feeling around his future?
17:48I know he played against Sunderland
17:50I think he was a late replacement
17:52at left back wasn't he?
17:54It's almost like
17:56that old boxing adage
17:58have gloves will travel
18:00that's Lyndon Gooch
18:02I'll play anywhere.
18:04You know what he's like as a character
18:06he had a bit of a
18:08challenging game I would say against Sunderland
18:11he had some difficult moments
18:13but then Stoke went to Burnley
18:15and he had a blinder
18:17he played really really well
18:19he got forward, he was putting in crosses with his left foot
18:21and he kept another clean sheet
18:23he kept another clean sheet last weekend
18:25and Plymouth didn't trouble Stoke at all
18:27defensively
18:29Stoke have got a bit
18:31of injury trouble at left back
18:33Eric Bocat is out for a few weeks
18:35Ender Stephens hasn't
18:37started I think since November
18:39he's been back on the bench
18:41but Gooch has got this chance to lay down a marker
18:43and as you say
18:45he'll play anywhere he's needed
18:47he hasn't really been able to
18:49hold down a regular starting spot in one position
18:51for Stoke, partly due to injuries
18:53since he joined from Sunderland
18:55and
18:57who knows what's going to happen in the summer
18:59I'm sure he'll have
19:01plenty of offers on the table
19:03because of his versatility
19:05and his character
19:07One more I wanted to ask you about
19:09Dean Whitehead, I know he's been on
19:11Stoke City's coaching staff for a long time
19:13former Sunderland captain
19:15won maybe two promotions with Sunderland
19:17I'll have to double check that
19:19but what's the situation with him, has he set a stay under Mark Robbins?
19:21No he's left
19:23he actually only came in in September
19:25he played for Stoke, obviously he joined Stoke from Sunderland
19:27and he came with
19:29Narcis Palic in September
19:31he hadn't actually worked with him previously
19:33but they'd both worked at Huddersfield and knew each other from there
19:35and he was part of
19:37his coaching team, he stayed under Shawcross
19:39so he was still on the bench against Sunderland
19:41Yeah I noticed that
19:43but then he left Stoke
19:45Mark Robbins has brought in two coaches, he's brought in
19:47James Robbery who was the Newport manager
19:49and he's the Wales assistant manager
19:51and he's brought in Paul Neving who's the
19:53England under-20s manager
19:55so a couple of really highly respected
19:57coaches
19:59and everybody you speak to says
20:01they're really good coaches
20:03Mark Robbins at Coventry
20:05there's a lot
20:07of pieces written about his
20:09relationship with Adi Vaivas
20:11who was his assistant and took
20:13a lot of credit for their success
20:15they fell out for
20:17whatever reason last year
20:19they went different ways in the summer
20:21so Mark Robbins has spent his time out of the game
20:23putting together a new backroom team
20:25ready for this opportunity
20:27so at the moment on paper
20:29it sounds really promising
20:31we'll soon find out how it goes
20:33Absolutely
20:35and finally what's your good feeling
20:37for the game on Saturday?
20:39For me I'm probably leaning towards a Stoke City
20:41win, I think it's just got that feel
20:43I genuinely just think
20:45it's got that feel about it in terms of
20:47Mark Robbins needing a result, needing to get the
20:49ship turned and I think Sunderland will just
20:51rest a couple of players, I think it'll be competitive
20:53and I'd like to think there'll be
20:55some decent performances from Sunderland but I think
20:57it's going to be such a heavily rotated
20:59side that it's always very difficult
21:01I look back at when Sunderland played in the Carabao Cup
21:03against Preston Northend away
21:05right at the beginning of the season and that was the
21:07second XI and it's just really
21:09hard to get any continuity
21:11those relationships around the pitch haven't developed
21:13I'm sort of expecting something similar
21:15against Stoke on Saturday
21:17I think
21:19whatever Stoke and Sunderland have played
21:21in the FA Cup before it's gone to a replay
21:23but it goes straight to extra time and penalties
21:25I think this time doesn't it?
21:27So hopefully that lends itself
21:29to a good game
21:31I think it'll be open and I think
21:33it'll be difficult to predict but I think both
21:35sides can probably win it and lose it
21:37and hopefully from my point of view
21:39Stoke can find
21:41a goal or two to sneak it
21:43but I wouldn't be
21:45I wouldn't have followed Stoke for
21:4735 years without predicting a Sunderland win
21:51Hopefully as well for our
21:53sake in terms of finishing work it doesn't go to
21:55extra time and penalties and you can get
21:57Stoke nice and quickly
21:59either way
22:01I'll take that
22:03I think we've had
22:05such a convey-about of managers over the last
22:07few years
22:09and they've all been really
22:11good with us
22:13all been really nice people to work with
22:15but I said before Robbins was appointed
22:17I said
22:19I'd take someone really nasty now
22:21someone who hated me
22:23I've had enough
22:25of covering the team that loses
22:27as much as Stoke have done over the last few years
22:31Fingers crossed it's a good
22:33game regardless
22:35Thanks for joining us Pete, where can
22:37we find you and your work if people want
22:39to read more about Stoke ahead of the game?
22:41If you're passing through
22:43Stoke-on-Trent pick up a newspaper that would help
22:45us and we're online
22:47as well, Stoke-on-Trent Life
22:49plenty of stories on there
22:51Brilliant, thank you Pete for joining
22:53us, thanks everybody for
22:55listening, you can keep up to date with all of our coverage
22:57ahead of the game against Stoke City
22:59on Saturday in the FA Cup
23:01on the Sunderland Echo website, thanks very much
23:03for listening