The Supreme Court has transferred Delhi High Court judge Justice Yashwant Varma back to Allahabad High Court after cash was allegedly found at his residence.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, start of a brand new week.
00:04News, newsmakers, talking points. The big talking point tonight, who will judge the
00:09judges? That's right. The cash found in a judge's house has sparked off a national debate.
00:16Former Attorney General Mukul Rothki will join us also. Two top former judges will be
00:22on my special show tonight. Also, Shiv Sena resorts to violence, targeting a comedian
00:31Kunal Kamra. Right to free speech under attack once more. We'll be looking at that too. But
00:38first as always, it's time for the nine headlines at nine. The Supreme Court Collegium sends
00:46Justice Verma back to parent Allahabad High Court. Allahabad Bar Association seeks impeachment
00:53of the judge. Parliament takes note of the case. Comedian's joke on Eknath Shinde sparks
01:04off violence. The Mumbai Municipal Corporation demolishes the comedy club used by stand-up
01:12star Kunal Kamra. Uddhav Thackeray defends him. Comedians call data and bank statement
01:18now to be accessed. He's being threatened even as the Chief Minister of Maharashtra
01:23defends the action. Riot mastermind Faheem Khan's illegal construction demolished. Bulldozer
01:34action against riot accused illegal property demolition despite Supreme Court curbs. Karnataka
01:43minority fireworks in Parliament now. Union Ministers Vijuju and Nadda claim that the
01:51Congress wants to change the constitution to a Muslim reservation. Congress says false
01:56claims have been made over DK Shivkumar's remarks. Centre announces a 24% salary hike,
02:07pension revision for MPs, lawmakers to earn an extra 1.24 lakhs a month. Supreme Court
02:17orders probe in IIT Delhi student suicide case forms task force to address the mental
02:23health concerns of students. Delhi Chief Minister Rekha Gupta tables a CAG report on
02:31Delhi Transport Corporation and Assembly DTC's liability surge to over 65,000 crores in six
02:38years. Union Ministers Piyush Goen and S. Jai Shankar meet Prime Minister Modi as concerns
02:46grow over potential US trade tariffs. This after External Affairs Minister told India
02:51that an India-US trade deal is in the works. US and Russia kick off Ukraine ceasefire talks
02:59in Saudi Arabia as attacks continue. Talks come hours after US and Ukraine discuss a
03:04potential peace plan. But the story that's breaking at this moment, the Supreme Court
03:21has now officially transferred the judge Justice Verma back to his parent court, the Allahabad
03:29High Court. The Allahabad High Court has now, its Bar Association though has passed a resolution
03:36seeking an impeachment of Justice Yashwant Verma. Remember it was in Justice Verma's house that
03:42large wads of cash were reportedly found when a fire broke out at his residence. The association
03:49is saying an in-house inquiry is unacceptable to the judicial fraternity. They want the judge
03:55to be impeached. That's the big story that's coming at this moment. Our legal editor Nalini
04:02Sharma is joining me. Nalini, what happens next given the fact that the Supreme Court has
04:08officially transferred Justice Verma out? Where does this court case go from here? Well Rajdeep,
04:16there are three parameters on which this entire matter is now going to proceed. Number one,
04:21regarding the transfer, the Supreme Court Collegium has recommended the transfer or the repatriation
04:26rather back to the Allahabad High Court of Justice Yashwant Verma. Now the ball falls into the court
04:31of the central government to approve this and make this happen. It remains to be seen how soon they
04:36can do it. The second aspect on which the development we can expect is the three-member
04:40inquiry panel that has been set up by the Chief Justice of India, which is essentially going to
04:45be a fact-finding committee that is going to determine what were the facts and what were the
04:50chain of events that happened on the night of March 14 when there was fire at Justice Verma's
04:55residence. The third and the most important aspect is the indefinite strike that has now been called
05:00in by the Allahabad High Court Bar Association against the repatriation that has been confirmed
05:06by the Supreme Court Collegium. So it remains to be seen exactly how the Allahabad High Court Bar
05:11as well as the Allahabad High Court Judiciary react to Justice Verma's repatriation back to
05:17his parents' High Court. So on all three aspects, we're expecting fast-paced developments in the
05:21coming days and it remains to be seen what finally emerges out of the fact-finding committee that has
05:26been set up by the Chief Justice of India, Justice Anjum Verma. Okay, Nalini Sharma saying the
05:31situation still remains fluid as to what actions will be taken particularly by that judicial in-house
05:38committee that has been appointed by the Chief Justice of India. That's a good point on which
05:44to go to one of my first guests this evening. Mukul Rodgi is one of the country's distinguished
05:49senior advocates, former Attorney General of the country. Appreciate your joining us, Justice
05:55Mr. Rodgi. I want to ask you, what is your view? Do you believe that this case will be swept under
06:01the carpet as some fear or is it moving in the right direction? It's a serious issue. I think
06:11it is moving in the right direction. The Chief Justice of India has acted with alacrity by
06:20appointing an in-house committee as soon as possible. There has been no dragging of feet.
06:29The only puzzling thing which I have been saying on the different channels in the last two, three
06:35days is, where is the recovery of the cash? There seems to be no recovery. Either it has been
06:47completely swept away. Where are the half-burnt notes? That is the evidence. Primary evidence
06:55has gone away. What was the police doing when it reached there? Why did it not seize the evidence?
07:03Why did it not make a panchnama with two independent witnesses? If there is a huge
07:08amount of cash, some cash must have been unburnt or semi-burnt. How did income tax not come into
07:15the picture? These are very worrying things. How is it that when the Chief Justice sent a person
07:24the next day, did he see any cash? Did he not see any cash? Please understand,
07:32you can't have a murder without a body being found. The second thing which I want to say is,
07:40see transfer or no transfer. The correct thing was that judicial work was withdrawn,
07:47because you can't have a person in a doubtful situation sitting on the bench dispensing justice.
07:53But the transfer in any case has to be first accepted by the Government of India. This
07:58transfer does not take effect on its own. God knows what view the government will take.
08:05But the transfer, another mystifying thing is that the Supreme Court is on record saying
08:12that this transfer has nothing to do with the in-house inquiry. I am baffled to hear that.
08:20According to me, it has everything to do with this episode and this inquiry. And in fact,
08:26the transfer, according to me, is clearly punitive. It is not for any other reason, except
08:36that the judge should have taught a lesson and so on and so forth. You are making important news
08:46points that I'm going to ask my producer to flash on the screen, because the fact is,
08:50and I want clarity on this from you, Mr. Rothgi, you're saying the police panchnama. Why was that
08:55not put in place? You're saying where is the actual evidence which could be half burnt or
09:01some notes that were not burnt? You're telling me that you're surprised that the income tax has
09:07still not given a statement on where they stand. Is there an income tax inquiry now?
09:12There are two views, Mr. Rothgi. One is the judge himself is claiming this could be a conspiracy
09:17against him, that he had nothing to do with the cash that was found in his house. The other is
09:21that this is the tip of the iceberg, that this cash could be part of a wider net, which could
09:27involve the judge. We don't know. It would be unfair to target him at this stage. But either
09:32way, you're saying that the police and the income tax and the fire department also need to come
09:39clean, am I correct? And come public with their statements? Absolutely correct, because we have
09:44had two contradictory statements of the fire department in two days. So what is your suspicion?
09:53What is your suspicion, Mr. Rothgi? Was someone trying to protect the judge? Or is this a classic
10:00case where we're not being told the entire truth? I don't know, Rajdeep, but all the facts are not
10:07on the table. If you were to ask me, let's say one side of the coin is that huge amounts of money
10:17is found in a judge's house. That it's so facto, damns the judge and a very serious explanation
10:25is required from him. The other part of the coin is, where are those notes in four
10:34gunny bags? Who brought them? Was it genuine money or was it fake money? Who would burn so much money
10:45and keep it or allow it to be burned and keep it in an outhouse? Everybody puts even a hundred
10:53rupee note in one's pocket. How could anybody keep it in an outhouse which may be accessed by different
10:59people? And the judge wasn't there that day. He arrived after 24 hours. He says that there was no
11:09money. Actually, the only evidence we have is that blurred video which you are showing on the screen
11:17just now, which also has half-burnt or semi-burnt notes I can see on the screen. Sir, but that video
11:25Mr. Rodgi has been put out by the Supreme Court itself. So the Supreme Court itself. So therefore,
11:31I wonder, is someone trying to fix the judge in your view? Is that a real fear? I don't know. So
11:37these are very puzzling issues. If somebody would fix the judge, would you burn 20 crores of good
11:44currency or was it fake currency? Or was it a mix? That one bag may have real currency, the others
11:52may have fake currency. You require a forensic probe. Now no probe is possible because everything
11:57has gone away. The first thing is the commissioner of police must explain why was not the half-burnt
12:06note seized or if not seized by him, income tax should have been called. What has happened to
12:14that kind of thing? What is the report that he gave to the Home Minister as to what he found?
12:21Is it at variance with the fire department? And to top it all, today's newspaper says
12:29that the Safai Karamcharis of the NDMC found evidence of burnt notes or semi-burnt notes
12:37in the raddi or the rubbish mixed with leaves because this is spring, onset of spring,
12:45all along the footpath outside the house. I don't know what is really happening.
12:56From what you are saying, look, would I be right in saying Mr. Rothgi that judges themselves
13:01through an in-house inquiry cannot become police investigators. These loopholes that you are
13:07pointing out clearly therefore require a multi-agency probe, not just a judicial in-house
13:13inquiry. Do you therefore believe that there should be a SIT form which should include income
13:18tax, include police and a time-bound probe be put in place? You are right, but there are some
13:25stumbling blocks there. The law requires this in-house informal inquiry by three judges,
13:32which has been ordered. Let us hope they do their job in the next two weeks because
13:38this cannot broke any delay. On one side, evidence is disappearing. The judge, if he is guilty,
13:45he must be wrapped for moral turpitude. If the judge is innocent, his reputation will become mud.
13:53It should be cleared at the earliest. So let's hope they give a verdict as soon as possible.
13:59But as you said, there cannot be the end of it. For the simple reason, you require the police,
14:06maybe the income tax, maybe a forensic department. You have to examine the CDR of the judge for the
14:12last three months. You have to examine CCTVs. You need specialists to do that. A judge can't
14:18examine a CDR and come to a conclusion and examine a CCTV. Whether the CCTV is functional,
14:25whether it is fudged, whether every video is not ipso facto evidence. It has to be proved in
14:33accordance with law that there is a proper video, it's not a doctored video, etc. So you require
14:41a full-blown inquiry. Now for a full-blown inquiry, you require the registration of a
14:46first information report. A first information report and investigation in the case of higher
14:52judiciary can only be with the consent of the Chief Justice of India. Because as you understand,
14:58judges are very vulnerable to millions of complaints every day. Because every disgruntled
15:04person will make a complaint. I know for a fact, 99.9% complaints are rubbish. But that's why you
15:10require one more layer. Can I therefore ask you in conclusion, as you say you require one more layer,
15:19do you believe this is the tip of the iceberg? That what has happened is actually exposing what
15:23is one of the worst kept secrets. Some believe that there is corruption in the higher judiciary.
15:30Can we say that now with any conclusiveness? I don't think you can say it today. Because as I
15:36told you, there are strong points on either side. We don't know what is the final conclusion till
15:44at least we get a report of these three judges. It will throw some light and then one will decide
15:50how to go forward. But undoubtedly, it's a sad day in the life of the judiciary,
15:58that these things are happening. The earlier we get to the bottom of it, it's better.
16:02And let me end by saying, the real way out is to have a structured revamp of these kind of inquiries
16:12and the process of impeachment, which is virtually well impossible. Because the final step is
16:17impeachment. Impeachment has not happened in the last 75 years of the constitution.
16:22You have to have a better system. Impeachment is not the correct system.
16:28I will still therefore ask you, and I will be going to judges in a moment
16:33as to whether impeachment actually works or not. But do you believe, therefore,
16:39that Justice Verma should not be assigned any cases? He's been transferred to Allahabad,
16:44the lawyers there are threatening to go on a strike. Do you believe he should not be
16:48assigned any cases till this matter is cleared? Yes, I don't think he should be assigned any work
16:53at least till the report of the three judges ordered by the Chief Justice of India. And I
16:59must say at the end, and I've said it earlier, full marks to the Chief Justice of India for
17:05making all this transparent. At least we have seen the video, we have seen the report of the
17:11Chief Justice of the High Court. We have seen the explanation of the judge. Normally, this would
17:16not have come out on public domain till a few months or a few steps later. But at least the
17:23Supreme Court, for the first time, has been more than transparent. And I say kudos to the Chief
17:29Justice of India. Okay, I'm going to leave it there, Mukul Rodhia. I appreciate you joining
17:34us and speaking with such clarity on the issue, saying that this cannot be just dealt with as a
17:39single agency probe. It really requires now multiple layers to operate for the truth to come
17:44out. Thank you very much. Just to give our viewers a context, an apex court, remember,
17:50has now appointed a panel and it's kicked off an in-house inquiry into what happened on the night
17:55of a fire on March 14th in the outhouse of a judge of the Delhi High Court. Did the cash that was
18:02found on video belong to the judge? Is it fake notes? Is it real notes? Justice Verma is claiming
18:08a conspiracy against him. There are those who are saying this could be the tip of the iceberg
18:13when it comes to judicial corruption. In a moment, I'll be joined by two judges,
18:18but first take a look at the story.
18:38Wads of cash reduced into ashes. This video of alleged cash haul is mounting the heat
18:46on the Delhi High Court judge, Justice Yashwant Verma.
18:53The judge has been derostered by the High Court and all judicial work withdrawn,
19:00while the probe into alleged cash haul is ramping up. A three-member High Court judge panel
19:07has launched an in-house inquiry on the unaccounted cash.
19:12Under the spotlight are the first responders to the fire at the judge's home. They will be quizzed
19:19on what happened on March 14th. The authenticity of the cash video and the site where money was
19:26found will be verified. The staff and security will be interrogated. The statements by the judge,
19:34the Delhi police and the Delhi fire services will also be probed. The judge's call records
19:40are under scrutiny for two reasons. What information he received the night of the fire
19:46and what calls he made after receiving the call on the fire at his home.
19:53Justice Yashwant Verma has denied all allegations linking him to the burning cash,
19:59claiming the storeroom where it was allegedly found was accessible to all.
20:04The cash haul row echoed in Parliament, with Rajya Sabha Chairman Jagdeep Dhankar holding
20:11a key meet with Leader of the House J P Nadda and Leader of Opposition Malik Arjun Kharge.
20:29Claims and counterclaims mounting in the cash haul. All eyes are on whether
20:53the SC appointed panel can unveil the truth.
20:59With Nalini Sharma, Bureau Report, India Today.
21:24I'm joined by Justice Madan Lokur, retired Supreme Court judge, and by Justice Sanjeev Banerjee,
21:29former Chief Justice of the High Courts of Madras and Meghalaya. Appreciate both of you
21:35joining me on the show. That central question, who will judge the judges,
21:38is an in-house inquiry of the kind that has been ordered by the present Chief Justice,
21:43in your view, good enough? I ask this to both of you, Justice Lokur, why don't you take that first?
21:48Is this in-house procedure good enough to restore public faith in the judiciary?
21:54Yes, thank you, Rajdeep. You know, so far as the present inquiry that you are adverting to
22:02about the cash being found at the residence of a judge, I don't think the present, you know,
22:07in-house inquiry would be sufficient because there are a lot of issues that have been raised.
22:14So, it will have to be a sort of an investigation both by the police and by the
22:21fire department because of the response given by the judge. But, you know, it depends upon
22:28each case. There are some cases in the past where the in-house inquiry has worked. For example,
22:36I remember doing a case in 2008 when I was a judge in Delhi High Court, two Chief Justices
22:43were also judges in the in-house inquiry and we did a very good job. You know, we gave a report
22:52in short, in a short time. So, that's not a problem. So, it really depends upon each case.
22:58Okay, but you are saying in this particular case, given the circumstances, it calls more for a
23:03police investigation or at least a substantial
23:06criminal investigation and not just the in-house inquiry. Am I correct?
23:11Yes, yes, yes.
23:12Okay, Justice Banerjee, your view?
23:16I think the first step is good. An in-house inquiry is good enough, but that in-house
23:24inquiry should have, the members of that committee should have access to police and the fire brigade
23:30officials and rely on some investigation report from them. So, in a sense, I'm agreeing with
23:37Justice Lokul, but it should be done by the committee and once the committee comes out with
23:43a report and which should be as quick as possible, thereafter, you know, law can take its own course.
23:52But should that report, Justice Banerjee, be made public? Because the fact is the general
23:59fear is this in-house inquiry is extremely opaque and therefore the public's right to
24:04know will not be there. Today, the judge has already been transferred formally to Allahabad.
24:08So, we will never know the reality unless that report is made public.
24:15I think it should be made public now that so many facts have come to light.
24:19We were dealing with allegations till the day before yesterday, several facts have come to
24:23light and we must know who the other players involved are. There are several names which
24:29are doing the rounds. You know, if there are no fixers, you won't get people to fix. So, we
24:36must find who are the persons at both ends and we should get to the bottom of this because let's not
24:45hide facts. There is corruption in the judiciary, but it's probably not to the extent as you make
24:52it out to be at the moment that almost everyone is. Most judges are honest, but there are black
24:59sheep and they have to be exposed and thrown out and that is what we as an institution have failed
25:06to do and we must address this immediately. Justice Loco, do you agree with that, that if
25:12and when the report is ready, it should be made public? Justice Banerjee seems to believe that
25:18that is the only way you will eventually come to the root of the problem which is
25:22corruption in a section of the judiciary. Yes, you see, it will eventually be made public,
25:29you know, in the sense that assuming, assuming the judge is found guilty by the in-house
25:38committee and the Chief Justice of India accepts the view of the in-house committee,
25:43the impeachment proceedings will start in which event it will obviously become public. The
25:49problem may arise if the judge is found not guilty by the in-house committee, okay? In that event,
25:57of course, if it's made public, good for the judge. You mentioned there briefly the word
26:05impeachment and the fear, Justice Loco, is that impeachment being such an arduous process,
26:11it is almost impossible to impeach the judge. Therefore, let us assume, not this specific
26:17judge, but any judge tomorrow who is found to be corruption or is known to be corrupt,
26:22can he be impeached as easily, particularly in the higher judiciary? Now, the problem is in
26:26the lower judiciary, there's already allegations of massive corruption. It's now spreading to the
26:31higher judiciary. Is impeachment the answer? Do we need to find a better way, a quicker,
26:36better, time-bound way to ensure?
26:41You see, impeachment is a process, all right? After the process is over, after the process
26:47of impeachment is over, a person may be guilty, a person may be innocent. So, impeachment is the
26:53process. Now, I think everywhere, you know, it is this process of impeachment that is followed.
27:02Now, there are two things. One is that should, you know, a committee sit to look into the matter
27:12before the process starts or should it be a little later? You see, because after this,
27:19once the impeachment process starts, assuming the judge is found guilty,
27:23under the Judge's Inquiry Act, there will be another inquiry, okay? So,
27:28one could argue that why should there be two inquiries, all right? But this inquiry,
27:34the in-house inquiry, is only for the purpose of advising the Chief Justice of India
27:39whether something has gone wrong, and if so, what is it that has gone wrong,
27:44so that if necessary, he can have an inquiry under the Judge's Inquiry Act.
27:50Impeachment, specifically Justice Banerjee, does it really work in the context of India
27:55It is a political process. So, therefore, it's subject to, you know, political considerations.
28:03Once it cleared, once it cleared one of the houses and the judge resigned at the end of it
28:11without waiting for the fate in the other house. But, you know, there should be an in-house process
28:19both as to what should be done in cases like this, where there is a set of rules that would
28:26be followed and also about the Collegium system. And I mentioned the Collegium system because
28:32this must not be used as an excuse to dismantle the Collegium system,
28:38because it is not an excuse to dismantle the Collegium system. It is not an excuse to dismantle
28:45the Collegium system, because then the independence of the judiciary will be gone.
28:52There are ways to improve it, but this must not be the excuse. As I hear it bandied all around
28:58that that should go, but until we have a better process, this is the best.
29:03Unless we, until we have a better process, this is the best. But critics will say,
29:07Justice Banerjee, it's a cozy club. You know, will judges be able to really do the kind of
29:13honest job that they are required to do when it involves a fellow judge with whom they may have a
29:18relationship? You know, the committee members have been chosen, hopefully, with the confidence of
29:27the Chief Justice of India, and there you must have some faith in the institution, in the office
29:33of the Chief Justice of India, that he would have chosen men of merit, of impeccable integrity,
29:40who will get to the bottom of this.
29:44You know, the fact is, though, Justice Lokur, there is this diminishing public faith. Now,
29:50you could call it that this is speculation, these are rumours, this is gossip, innuendo,
29:54the corridors of the Supreme Court and various courts are full of all kinds of gossip and innuendo.
30:01But daal mein kuch toh kala hai. So therefore, do you really believe that an in-house system,
30:07a cozy club, can actually bring a resolution to cases of corruption?
30:15Yeah, you see, I don't know what you mean by a cozy club. Okay, now look at it like this.
30:21If a bureaucrat commits a crime, okay, of say, corruption, a departmental inquiry is held by whom?
30:32By his senior or somebody superior to him. If a policeman does something wrong,
30:39a departmental inquiry is held by whom? By a senior police officer. So this system, you know,
30:46whether it pertains to bureaucrats, whether it pertains to the police, whether it pertains to
30:50judges, whether it pertains to anybody else, it's the people who are there, you know, their peers,
30:57who judge whether something wrong has been done or not. So this cozy club idea,
31:02you know, is, it's a nice expression, but I don't think it works.
31:08Okay, let me give you some hard facts, Justice Banerjee and Justice Lokot. Declaration of
31:13assets of high court judges, less than 7% of high court judges in India publicly declared the assets,
31:19assets declared publicly only by 49 of 763 sitting high court judges,
31:24zero judges from 18 of the 25 high courts have declared their assets. Justice Banerjee,
31:29should there be therefore compulsory mandatory asset declaration and an audit every year?
31:35Absolutely, absolutely, that is imperative. But I don't think that the assets should be made
31:42public. That is where a lot of judges fear. But declaration of assets every year with an audit
31:50is absolutely imperative. And there should be some mechanism available to the judiciary itself
31:56to undertake this kind of an investigation and audit. There could be a judicial
32:01audit kind of service, like there should be a judicial management service.
32:10Justice Lokot, do you agree with Justice Banerjee, compulsory mandatory asset declaration?
32:15Absolutely, absolutely. You see, so far as the district judiciary is concerned,
32:20all right, they have to declare the assets every year. All right, and they put it in a sealed
32:25cover and give it to the district judge and perhaps give it to the high court. All right,
32:30now, so far as government officials are concerned, they also have to declare their assets,
32:36if not every year, every two years.
32:38Okay, so there you have it. Asset declaration is a clarion call being given by the former judges
32:45saying there must be compulsory mandatory asset declaration by our judges and a proper audit
32:52there. Okay, let me come from who will judge the judges to the case of comedian Kunal Kamra,
33:00our other big story today, because the comedian is back in an unwanted controversy.
33:06This time, a satirical song that he put out on Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister Eknath
33:11Shinde sparked out a row. Shiv Sena workers vandalized the comedy club where Kamra had
33:16performed the song and later the comedian was booked. Take a look.
33:24A satirical take on Maharashtra Deputy CM Eknath Shinde has sparked a maha war.
33:31At the center of it is stand-up comic Kunal Kamra, who referred to Shinde as a traitor,
33:39mocking his beginnings as an auto driver.
33:44The joke infuriated the Shiv Sena that went on rampage at Mumbai's Habitat studio.
33:50A violent eruption triggered a political face-off with Maharashtra Chief Minister
34:03branding Kunal Kamra as an urban Naxal.
34:50Soon, the Mumbai civic body was at Kunal Kamra's comic act venue.
35:14The demolition of the Habitat studio is going over there.
35:17We cannot see this because the studio is inside on the first floor. So definitely,
35:22we have to see that where this Kunal Kamra whole controversy over the comedy
35:27goes and where it ends.
35:30The controversy has reignited the debate over free speech and intolerance.
35:38It's very clear, based on the language that they have used,
35:42that they're not comedians, but they are paid agents of UBT.
35:49And this despite the fact that Maharashtra and the country have repeatedly rejected these parties
35:57for their entitled monarchistic ways. So these people will never learn.
36:11There is already an FIR against Kunal Kamra and the Mahayati government has launched a full probe.
36:29The stand-up comics, call detail records and bank account details will be scrutinized.
36:35The state government is also going to investigate who is behind the satire on Eknath Shinde.
36:42With Hrithvik Bhalekar and Dipesh Tripathi in Mumbai, Bureau Report, India Today.
36:52So is the Maharashtra Mahayati government guilty of trampling free speech?
36:57Has the Shiv Sena and its workers been allowed to get away with Thokshai,
37:01not just now, but for decades? And who will draw the limits to free speech?
37:07Joining me now is Rahul Kanal, leader of Shiv Sena. Rahul was among those who reportedly
37:14is being accused of inciting people to target Kunal Kamra. And I'm also joined by Seema Malik,
37:21spokesperson, NCP, Sharad Pawar Group. But to you, Rahul, let me be very clear to you.
37:29Do you at any stage today accept responsibility for being involved in the violent attack,
37:37in breaking down that comedy club? You have gone there. There are visuals of you
37:42and that you and your supporters have gone and broken that comedy club and
37:47threatened Kunal Kamra that if he comes to Mumbai, you will break his bones.
37:50Sir, I am taking total responsibility of this act. This is a clear reaction of our emotion
38:02and by the law and by Mumbai police, 12 of us, including me, we have been prosecuted for the
38:09same. And I am out on bail in front of you. Sir, firstly, I would just.
38:15No, you are taking full responsibility for the act. No, no, you are taking full responsibility
38:20for breaking a club where this act took place. Do you know that that is against the law?
38:27Who gave you the right to do it? Your sentiments may be hurt, but where does the right come,
38:33Rahul, to break someone's property? Sir, it is, it is. Sir, I totally agree.
38:39Sir, I totally agree and I respect your emotion, sir. And sir, firstly, I would like to tell you,
38:44this place, this particular venue, I tried calling the owner first. I had got into a
38:49communication which he totally rejected. This place has six FIRs registered against the same
38:55very place. Sixteen FIRs going on against this particular man. And I would like to note you,
39:01I would like to bring to notice, sir, during COVID, this is the same Kunal Kamra who used to
39:07get. Sir, you have seen me on Twitter. You know me since, you know, I was in college. I have been
39:12working. I am clearly here as an emotional Shiv Sainik. Emotion does not allow you to resort to
39:20violence. Mr. Rahul Kanal, Mr. Rahul Kanal, you are, I am showing the visuals. You have broken
39:25someone's property. Will you compensate him? Will you compensate the club owner? Sir, I am,
39:31sir, sir, will he, will he compensate my emotions? Will he compensate,
39:36will he bring in our Kunal Kamra for an apology?
39:40I am ready to do so. If the owner does that, I am 110% sure I will do it.
39:45No, no, one minute. You go into someone's comedy club where, where the act is performed. You break
39:50chairs, you break up the place, you smash the place. The BMC comes there and demolishes part
39:55of it. I want to understand, which law, which law are you operating under? Are you operating
40:00under the constitution of the country or Rahul Kanal and Shiv Sena's law? Sir, I am,
40:06on what ground, okay, on what grounds have you gone there, on what law? No, no, Rahul,
40:11I want to know under what law have you gone and broken someone's property? Please show me the
40:16map and law. As a Mumbaikar, as a Mumbaikar, I addressed, sir, as a Mumbaikar, I addressed,
40:22I, I, I addressed it to the owner. I called up the owner, Mr. Balraj Ghai. I have a proper
40:29call recording of the same. I will share it with you. I requested him. Firstly, sir, I am,
40:35I am an educated man. I requested him for the same. See, this is the venue you look after and
40:41you have given the space on rent and such acts are happening here. Are you aware of, are you aware
40:46of the same? So he was, he was bluntly saying, no, this is Kunal Kamra and he's at fault. You
40:51talk to him. So, sir, as per an owner is concerned, he has rented out the venue. You could have filed
40:56a case against Kunal Kamra. If, sir, you can file a case against Kunal Kamra, you have every right
41:02to do that. Sir, that's what I did. So please do that, but you have no right to break into
41:06someone's property. No, Mr. Rahul Kanal, you can file a case. How can you break the property
41:12based on your emotions? Tomorrow, based on emotion, this country will resort to violence.
41:18I mean, how long is this going to continue? Nagpur one day, somebody, somebody's offended
41:23last week with, on the Aurangzeb issue, they resort to violence. Today, you are offended
41:29on Kunal Kamra, you resort to violence. This country cannot run on Thokshai.
41:37So then why, why no debates on Rahul Kulkarni's arrest as a, as a journalist? Why no debate that
41:42time? Why no debate when the Kangana Ranaut was, her, her place was demolished? Why no debate that
41:48time? Why, why no debate for a credit Somaiya? Why no debate for a Navneet Rana? That is, that is
41:55not freedom of speech. Let me, let me take that point. Now you are raising a point of,
42:01you are claiming the outrage is selective. I want to take that to you, Seema Malik. September 9,
42:062020, when your government, just a minute, when the Mahavikas Agadi was in power, Kangana Ranaut's
42:12Mumbai office was partially demolished for comments on Sushant Rajput's death probe.
42:16September 2020, Shiv Sena workers thrashed a former naval officer, Madan Sharma, for sharing
42:22a cartoon on Uddhav Thackeray. May 14, 2022, pharmacy student Nikhil Bhamre was held for an
42:28offensive post on Pawar. May 16, 2022, Marathi actor Ketli Chitle was held and arrested for
42:35several days for Facebook post on Sharad Pawar. Please be very clear. Are y'all in any way less
42:43culpable when it comes to intolerance, Ms. Malik? Y'all have also been intolerant when you're in
42:48power. When Shiv Sena was one party, Balasaheb Thackeray-Shiv Sena would attack, journalists
42:53would attack, anyone who criticized Balasaheb Thackeray's party. Ms. Malik?
43:01Whatever has been done in past, it is not like this. Yeah. Can you hear me?
43:07Yes, I can.
43:07Can you hear me?
43:08Yes, madam.
43:10Can you hear me?
43:11Yes, madam. Please go ahead.
43:13Ji, I was just telling you that you have made certain examples of the past and you are telling
43:22that the things have been done in past also like this. But the thing which happened today,
43:31but we have not vandalized the properties like this. It is totally different. What has happened
43:37today? They have taken the law and order in their hands. They have vandalized the building and
43:45they have vandalized-
43:46So you're saying that y'all arrested people when they criticized Sharad Pawar. You didn't vandalize
43:54them. Either way, you misused your power. The truth of the matter, Seema Malik, whoever is in
44:00power, especially in a state like Maharashtra, seems to misuse their power. You arrested an
44:05actor because you didn't like the post on Sharad Pawar. Why did you arrest her? She should also
44:11have free speech.
44:12See, what you are telling is totally right. I don't disagree with you and the rule is for everyone.
44:24I must say that. But the thing which happened yesterday or today only, I think, the way they
44:32behaved, they vandalized the things, they ransacked the hotel. It was not his property or
44:38something. And when these types of things happen, they say, we will ask for the compensation from
44:46the people who have destroyed it. And the BMC also came. And then, see, in case of Kangana
44:51Ranaut, so many notices were given to Kangana Ranaut's case.
44:59Seema Malik, hold on. Let me take the real questions today have to be answered by Rahul
45:08Karnal. Because Rahul Karnal, the fact is you have mentioned a few cases when the Mahavikas
45:13Agni was in power.
45:14Sir, you can take the real questions.
45:16No, no, one minute. One minute, Mr. Karnal. One minute. In Kangana Ranaut's case, there were
45:20charges that these were unauthorized construction. No, no, one minute. One minute, Rahul Karnal.
45:25In other cases, arrests were made. I believe they were wrongful arrests. There was misuse
45:29of state power. None of that. That water bountary cannot justify your vandalism today. You have
45:35vandalized someone's property only because a comedian performed an act.
45:39Sir, what about Rahul Kulkarni?
45:41Agreed with you. It is all.
45:43Sir, what about Rahul Kulkarni? What about Anil Goswami?
45:45No, one minute, sir.
45:47Sir, tell me one incident during Shinde sir's tenure in power. Tell me one incident or violence.
45:55Tell me one incident where an artist was executed.
45:57So how did it happen now?
45:59Tell me one incident where a tweet.
46:01Just for a tweet, someone was arrested.
46:03Sir, this is a clear reaction. Someone coming to your house.
46:09File a case.
46:11You coming out from Maharashtra. You know, sir.
46:13File a case against him.
46:15You will tolerate this about your seniors at home.
46:17I will file a case.
46:19I did that. I did that.
46:21I tried a communication with the owner.
46:23He was not ready to come out.
46:25So therefore you will break his property.
46:27I have a call recording.
46:29So you will break someone's property like this.
46:31Sir, I have been arrested for the same.
46:33I am not above law.
46:35You must pay compensation.
46:37Will you compensate that owner?
46:39Sir, you get me an apology.
46:41I pay a compensation on your channel.
46:43One minute.
46:45You get me an apology for my senior.
46:47Mr. Rahul Kanal, this is Thokshahi.
46:49This is Thokshahi.
46:51This is not the law of the land.
46:53No, sir. This is not Thokshahi.
46:55This is Lokshahi.
46:57This is Lokshahi, sir.
46:59This is not freedom of speech.
47:01Constructive criticism is freedom of speech.
47:03When a client, when a customer has paid for the ticket.
47:05He is coming there for entertainment.
47:07He doesn't care.
47:09A youngster wouldn't care what your politics
47:11Jumlas are.
47:13He needs practically
47:15military, sir.
47:17I don't know what to say today.
47:19I will leave it to the viewers to judge.
47:21Rahul Kanal says
47:23his emotions have been hurt.
47:25This was an emotional response.
47:27And therefore, he wants an apology.
47:29He says, only then is he willing
47:31to even consider compensation.
47:33Please think of the implications
47:35of what has just been said on the show.
47:37This is a party in power
47:39which is now resorting
47:41to this kind of violence and vandalism.
47:43Vandalism.
47:45And therefore,
47:47is it to be justified?
47:49Is this the face that we want to project
47:51when we talk of the future of this country
47:53of a Vixit Bharat or a Vixit Maharashtra?
47:55I leave it to you, the viewers,
47:57to decide.
47:59Water boundary is not the answer.
48:01Let's be very clear.
48:03Maharashtra has suffered for decades
48:05because of this kind of politics.
48:07Okay, let me turn from
48:09to stay with Maharashtra because
48:11seven days after the communal clashes
48:13hit Nagpur, guess what?
48:15The bulldozers are back
48:17rolling against the alleged rioters.
48:19Their action comes after
48:21Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis
48:23warned that the rioters would be made
48:25to pay for the damages caused
48:27to the properties in Nagpur.
48:29But now the High Court has intervened
48:31and asked under what law
48:33has the bulldozer been used
48:35and the Supreme Court has made it very clear
48:37that due process must be followed.
48:39Take a look.
48:51JCB at work in Nagpur.
48:53The machine sent
48:55by the city municipal corporation
48:57reached the house of Fahim Khan,
48:59the main accused in the last week
49:01riots case Monday morning.
49:03The demolition of allegedly
49:05illegal construction was carried out
49:07under tight security.
49:09Officials however appeared to be evasive
49:11when asked who issued the notice
49:13and when.
49:33Fahim Khan's mother
49:47had moved a petition before the Nagpur
49:49bench of the Bombay High Court
49:51against bulldozer action.
49:53The demolition was over
49:55by the time the court took up the matter
49:57at 2.30 pm.
50:03The crackdown
50:23comes after Chief Minister
50:25Devendra Fadnavis warned of strict measures
50:27including bulldozer action
50:29against those responsible for the
50:31Nagpur riots over Aurangzeb.
50:57The High Court has directed
50:59the Principal Secretary of Maharashtra
51:01and the Nagpur Municipal Commissioner
51:03to respond by April 15,
51:05the next day of hearing on plea filed
51:07by Fahim Khan's mother.
51:13With Hrithvik Bhalekar and Yogesh Pandey
51:15in Nagpur, Bureau Report,
51:17India Today.
51:29It's two years since the violence broke out
51:31in Manipur, triggering a deep divide
51:33between the Mete and Kuki communities.
51:35India Today's
51:37Nalini Sharma travelled
51:39with the Supreme Court fact-finding
51:41team to get you a ground report
51:43on where the situation stands
51:45today in a scarred Manipur.
51:47Take a look.
51:59Children at a shelter singing
52:01in the presence of Supreme Court judges
52:03including Justice B.R. Gavai
52:05who visited Manipur
52:07to take stock of the relief efforts
52:09in the state hit by tensions
52:11between Mete and Kuki Zombie communities
52:13for nearly two years now.
52:17Incidentally, the relief camp
52:19itself has got a facelift
52:21ahead of the judges' weekend visit.
52:23There are separate rooms
52:25or places that have been designated
52:27for people to stay in
52:29and these are divided by mere
52:31curtains as doors as well as acting
52:33as walls inside.
52:35And what we are given to understand
52:37is that one space or one room
52:39has been allotted to one family
52:41which means that there are several
52:43rooms which have eight to nine
52:45people living because this has been
52:47done every single day.
52:49Let me show you also what one room
52:51looks like from inside
52:53because there are no people over here
52:55we can show it to you what it looks like.
52:57There you have, that's the room
52:59that's the space that's available to them
53:01where they've made their set up
53:03they've made their beds, there's bed on the floor
53:05and there are a few utensils and that is
53:07the only place that has been allotted
53:09to one entire family irrespective
53:11of what the size of the room
53:13is.
53:15And this is the room
53:17irrespective of what the size
53:19of the family is.
53:21Manipur remains deeply divided
53:23with hundreds of citizens still
53:25living in relief camps.
53:27Though the centre has
53:29allowed open movement on the
53:31ground, metis stick to the valley
53:33and cookies to the hills.
53:37We must come to
53:39preserve peace and
53:41we must realise
53:43the situation.
53:45We must not do anything which will further
53:47derail or provoke
53:49any section. We must
53:51because we are going for a peace
53:53peaceful coexistence and solution.
53:55I have no regrets, there is nothing like it.
53:57I am sure I will in some
53:59due course I will be able to visit
54:01Churasanpur also. I have so many great friends
54:03I could see them, could see my
54:05friends sitting there. I would love
54:07to go and see, hug them also.
54:11Manipur has been deeply divided for
54:13nearly two years now. Lasting
54:15peace remains elusive for the state
54:17currently under President's rule.
54:19With Nalini Sharma, Bureau
54:21Report, India Today.
54:43When they looked at that.
54:45Thanks for watching. Stay well.
54:47Stay safe. Good night.
54:49Shubhrati. Jai Hind. Namaskar.
55:1327 February 2024
55:15shows rampant cheating during a law exam
55:17in Uttar Pradesh's Barabanki.
55:19The exam was later voided hence the said video
55:21is not of cheating for Union Public Service
55:23Commission. This fact check on
55:25viral fake news is done by India Today's team
55:27AFA. This is AI Sana
55:29signing off.