A large pile of cash was found at Delhi High Court judge Justice Yashwant Varma's residence on Friday after firefighters were called in to douse a blaze.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00One of the senior most judges at the Delhi High Court is in the eye of a storm over the
00:05recovery of a large amount of cash in his house after an incident of fire was reported.
00:10The Supreme Court Collegium led by the Chief Justice of India has sought a fact-finding
00:15report from the Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court and has transferred the judge to
00:20his original Allahabad High Court.
00:23But there are many who ask, is transfer punishment enough and who will judge the judges?
00:53Supreme Court Collegium transfers the judge.
01:01Can the High Court judge be asked to resign?
01:05Who will judge the judiciary?
01:08And that's our top focus on the news track.
01:13Does Lord Dennings oft repeated, be you ever so high, the law is above you.
01:20Apply to the honourable judges of the High Court and the Supreme Court of India.
01:24There are officers of the court who are today saying they are shaken and they are demoralized
01:31after a large amount of cash was recovered from a sitting High Court judge's residence.
01:36Should there have been a probe?
01:38Should there be an FIR, a first information report?
01:41Or is there merit in due course being followed?
01:46Should the High Court Chief Justice first ascertain all the facts, till then the justice
01:51is moved out of the Delhi High Court and then action will be taken on the basis of facts
01:58that are known.
01:59We discuss, we debate.
02:01I'm Gaurav Sawant, as always, let's get started with the headlines at 8 o'clock.
02:09Union Home Minister Amit Shah wades into the language controversy, accuses the DMK of raking
02:15up the issue to hide corruption.
02:17Amit Shah declares Hindi does not compete with any other national language.
02:29Rahul Gandhi reignites merit versus caste quota debates.
02:33His merit system is an upper caste construct.
02:36BJP accuses the Congress MP of displaying nepotistic and feudal mindset.
02:45Full nataka in the Karnataka Assembly.
02:50BJP MLA suspended and evicted from the house over honey trap charges.
02:57BJP demands Chief Minister Siddharam Iyer's resignation.
03:07Karnataka Assembly passes 4% minority quota bill as opposition legislators protest.
03:12BJP calls the bill injustice to Dalits.
03:22Pakistan launches a brutal crackdown on Baluch activists in Quetta.
03:27Dozens, including women, arrested.
03:30Pakistani security forces resort to firing and tear gas shells are launched.
03:36In one of the biggest scandals to rock the higher Indian judiciary,
03:45a Delhi High Court judge has been transferred following the recommendation of the Supreme Court Collegium.
03:51This after a large amount of cash was recovered from his bungalow after a fire incident was reported.
03:59The revelations have triggered a massive debate.
04:02Is transfer punishment enough?
04:05Should there have been an FIR?
04:08And who will judge the judges?
04:17It is one of the biggest scandals to hit the Indian judiciary.
04:21At the center of the storm is Delhi High Court Judge Justice Yashwant Verma.
04:26Unaccounted cash was found at his bungalow over the holy weekend after a fire incident.
04:33After the cash recovery, Justice Verma was transferred back to his parent court,
04:38the Allahabad High Court, after the Supreme Court Collegium's recommendation.
04:45Whether an in-house inquiry will be conducted is still under consideration.
04:50Supreme Court Collegium had sought a report from Delhi High Court Chief Justice on the case.
04:55Supreme Court judges have also been informed about the issue.
05:00The cash scandal has triggered big outrage.
05:04I don't wish to make a comment except to say that the law must be set in motion.
05:09Because the minute you get a recovery of quote-unquote large amounts,
05:13quote-unquote a pile of cash, what is a large amount?
05:16What is the pile of cash?
05:18We are just going by rumors.
05:20Someone says 15 crores, someone says 50 crores.
05:23I think this incident calls for a disclosure statement by the Collegium
05:30on all the questions that have raised.
05:33Certainly, the issue of corruption within the judiciary is a very serious issue
05:38and this is not something that has been articulated by senior counsel and lawyers in this country.
05:45So, I think that it's time for the Supreme Court
05:48to start looking at issues of how the appointment process should take place.
05:55So, what happens next?
05:56Dalabhar High Court Bar Association has already objected to the Justice Verma's transfer back
06:02saying that their court is not a trash bin.
06:06Sources tell India Today that the Union Government is waiting for Supreme Court action in the case
06:11and is willing to bring impeachment motion if it is recommended.
06:15Vishishti Ojai, New Delhi, Bureau Report, India Today.
06:22So, what is it that we know so far?
06:24There was a fire on the 14th, not today, not yesterday,
06:29but the incident took place on the 14th.
06:31The information came in public domain and only then do we have more information coming in
06:38and then there are those who ask, including the Vice President of India, Jagdeep Dhankar.
06:44He's asked, should information have come out on its own?
06:48Whether it's accountability?
06:50Should it happen automatically?
06:52And perhaps he says it will be happening on its own.
06:55But who is Justice Yashwant Verma?
06:58Let me get you more on him.
07:00In 2006, he was elevated as Special Counsel at the Allahabad High Court.
07:05In August 2012, till August 2013,
07:10he was the Chief Standing Counsel for the Uttar Pradesh Government.
07:14In October 2014, he was elevated as an additional judge
07:19and in October 2021, he was transferred to the Delhi High Court.
07:24In March 2025, which is now,
07:28it is being recommended that he be sent back to the Allahabad High Court
07:34and the Allahabad High Court Bar Council is saying,
07:37why are we a trash bin?
07:40And those are very strong words that are coming in.
07:43But I want to tell you a little more information that is coming in.
07:48The Chief Justice of India, CJI Sanjeev Khanna led SC Collegium,
07:52it decided to transfer Justice Verma to his parent court, the Allahabad High Court.
07:57That's information that is coming in.
07:58After, quote-unquote, a large amount of cash was recovered.
08:03What is this amount?
08:04There are several figures that are floating in public domain
08:07but the authorities are silent on the recovery.
08:12Is transfer enough or is transfer very clearly inadequate in this case?
08:19An in-house inquiry, is that sufficient?
08:22These are several questions that we are seeking answers to.
08:26An in-house inquiry, will it be transparent?
08:30Will it reveal the truth?
08:32Is there merit in the contention
08:34that more would be brushed under the carpet
08:37than revealed in the interest of protecting the integrity of the organization
08:43as some lawyers say?
08:45Then let there be a transparent inquiry.
08:47Let all facts emerge in public domain.
08:50What are other facts that we know as of now?
08:52Some of the verdicts delivered by Justice Verma
08:55in February 2025, the Unnao rape convict, Sengar,
09:00he was granted bail on medical grounds.
09:02That was one such case.
09:04In May 2024, he set aside an order in favor of Kalanidhi Maran
09:10in the SpiceJet case.
09:12In March 2024, dismissed the Congress Party plea
09:16against income tax reassessment proceedings.
09:20In November 2022, the Central Bureau of Investigation
09:24and the Enforcement Directorate were asked to give
09:26all press notes on the Delhi liquor scam.
09:31Before that, in September 2022,
09:34Dr. Subramanian Swamy was directed
09:38to hand over his Delhi bungalow
09:40in a period of six weeks.
09:43In September 2022, Lokpal proceedings
09:46under Shibu Soren were stained.
09:49In September 2022, details of sanction for prosecution
09:54under UAPA and exempt from RTI.
09:59Now, the higher judiciary is under intense scrutiny once again.
10:04From lawmakers to officers of the law,
10:07there are rising demands for accountability
10:09in the higher judiciary.
10:11There is a case. Is this a test case for accountability?
10:15Should the Supreme Court have ordered the registration
10:17of an FIR? Is the collegium right
10:19in first directing the Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court
10:21to ascertain facts and then take a considered decision
10:25once all facts are known?
10:27I'm now being joined by Dushyant Dave,
10:30a senior advocate who joins me on the show.
10:34Mr. Dave, many thanks for joining me, sir.
10:36Does this show the higher judiciary in poor light?
10:39Not just reports of recovery of quote-unquote large amount
10:43of cash, but the action taken by the collegium
10:46so far or the lack of it?
10:48Is it too little and too opaque?
10:52Well, I must say that this case really has raised
10:57very serious issues about the happenings in the judiciary.
11:02But this is, as I have said, you know, earlier,
11:06that it is a tip of an iceberg.
11:09And there are very serious, you know,
11:12issues challenging the judiciary on account
11:15of various kinds of, you know, interference,
11:18financial interference, political interference,
11:21ideological interference, which is reflecting justice
11:24in more than one way.
11:26And therefore, as a result of that,
11:28a lot of people are suffering.
11:30They are getting, you know, they are not getting justice.
11:33Injustice is being done to them.
11:35And this case, of course, reflects a very, very,
11:38I mean, I would say sorry state of affairs
11:41in the judiciary.
11:43Although some of us, and especially me,
11:45I have raised this again and again in my letters
11:48to various chief justices in the past,
11:50citing specific instances of, you know,
11:53judges who have really conducted themselves
11:57very badly and given more than suspicion
12:01about their judgments and about their judicial conduct,
12:05but no action, no reaction came, no action was taken.
12:10This case is now, you know,
12:12I mean, it is impossible for Justice Verma
12:14to explain how this cash was found in his house.
12:17And if it was any other public servant
12:20or a politician, then, of course,
12:22he would have been picked up immediately
12:24and Prevention of Corruption Act
12:26would have been pressed into service.
12:28So let me then take it up from what you've said.
12:30The incident, we are told, took place on the 14th.
12:33It's come to light only now.
12:35So is there merit in Vice President Jagdeep Dhankar
12:38and Chairman Rajya Sabha saying
12:40it bothers him that the incident
12:42did not come to light immediately?
12:44And perhaps a systematic response
12:46which is transparent, accountable and effective,
12:49he feels, he's sure, is on the way.
12:52So is there merit that the current system
12:54is neither transparent nor accountable and effective?
12:58See, not only non-transparent,
13:01but it is completely ineffective.
13:03I mean, over a long period of time,
13:05when, you know, senior members of the Bar like me
13:09who have no eggs to grind,
13:11point out to the judges that there are
13:13specific instances of wrongdoing
13:15and Chief Justice after Chief Justice doesn't act,
13:18you know, it really hurts
13:20because we love institution.
13:22We want institution to improve.
13:24We want so that it can give real justice
13:26to people who are seeking justice.
13:28So, I mean, this instance is also not going to
13:31bring any kind of a final solution
13:35to the problem which is seriously ailing.
13:38It's a cancer which has set into judicial system.
13:41Very strong words, sir.
13:45Gaurav, you meet people all over.
13:48I meet people on golf courses,
13:50in, you know, weddings, in restaurants,
13:52on plane, they are constantly
13:54complaining that they have suffered
13:56injustice because of corrupt judges.
13:58Now, what do you do about it?
14:00Whom do you talk to?
14:02If the collegium doesn't want to talk,
14:04doesn't want to meet,
14:05it remains in isolated, you know,
14:07ivory tower and God knows
14:09what they discuss amongst themselves.
14:11If they don't want to discuss openly,
14:14if they don't want to meet people
14:16who really can tell them honestly
14:18and boldly as to what is really
14:20affecting the system,
14:22what's the point?
14:23So, this is going to be one more
14:25incident where I think a decent burial
14:27will be given to the incident.
14:29Sir, that would be very, very unfortunate
14:31but are you saying that the faith
14:33of the masses, the faith of the
14:35common masses in judiciary
14:37may God forbid be adversely impacted?
14:39What needs to be done
14:41in your appreciation, sir?
14:43Gaurav, if, you know, unlike
14:45western countries, this country
14:47does not have surveys about many
14:49things including, you know, what is
14:51happening in judiciary or government.
14:53If surveys were taken by independent
14:55agencies, I can assure you
14:57that judiciary will fail very poorly.
14:59People will have, people have
15:01really, I mean, a lost faith
15:03in judicial system.
15:04It's not just inefficiency
15:06and, you know, long delays
15:08but it is also this corruption
15:10which is affecting, you know,
15:12common man very badly.
15:14I mean, time and again people are,
15:16you know, saying that things are really
15:18not hunky-dory in judiciary
15:20and there is nobody to listen to.
15:22So, I don't think really
15:24we can,
15:26unless we have a
15:28system where
15:30these kind of grievances are brought
15:32to the notice of the judges.
15:34If the judges are willing to listen and meet,
15:36you know, people, they want to understand
15:38because, you see, what has happened is
15:40these collegiums are appointing these judges.
15:42These, all these judges today
15:44who are facing challenges across the country
15:46and I can tell you there are large number of them.
15:48There are, I mean, majority of judges are
15:50honest. Unfortunately,
15:52it is this strong minority
15:54which is giving a bad name to judiciary
15:56but they are very effective,
15:58they are very vocal
16:00and they are very authoritative
16:02and they are the ones
16:04who really take up these important cases
16:06of, you know, involving rich and powerful
16:08people, politicians and others
16:10and they decide those cases.
16:12Who should then appoint the judges?
16:14Should the government appoint judges?
16:16You know, when there was
16:18talk of appointment of a
16:20Judicial Commission, a National Appointments
16:22Commission for Judiciary that was
16:24struck down, what needs to be done?
16:26How do you appoint judges
16:28with unimpeachable integrity
16:30and how do you ensure that somebody
16:32is keeping an eye on everybody
16:34in a very transparent
16:36manner?
16:38I have no faith in the collegium system
16:40and I have made no bones about it.
16:42I appeared and argued before that bench
16:44which upheld the NJSC
16:46and I told them openly in open court
16:48I mean, I must tell you
16:50I used very strong words as
16:52President of the Court, arguing before
16:54that Constitution bench that you wear
16:56burqas and walk in corridor of any
16:58court in this country and you will know what your
17:00goodwill and reputation is.
17:02So, I mean, I know what is
17:04happening. I love the institution,
17:06I respect it, but
17:08yet I have to say that
17:10there is nobody who is willing
17:12to raise the voice.
17:14We lawyers are responsible. Judges
17:16are not doing this on their own.
17:18Lawyers are party to it, many lawyers.
17:20Lawyers, knowing full well
17:22that judges have been fixed by their clients
17:24day in and day out and that includes
17:26successful lawyers,
17:28very successful lawyers.
17:30The registry is corrupt.
17:32Even in Supreme Court, I can assure you
17:34today, of course, things have changed under Chief Justice Khanna
17:36but till the other day
17:38the registry was horribly
17:40planned and I know
17:42as a matter of fact that
17:44some advocates on record in Supreme
17:46Court can manipulate registry
17:48to the advantage of their clients
17:50and monies were being exchanged.
17:52I know that.
17:54How can the system be made
17:56transparent and accountable? In this
17:58current instance, for example, instead
18:00of a transfer, is there
18:02a system of suspension
18:04for example or leave pending
18:06investigation so that there is a
18:08transparent, time bound investigation
18:10and action taken and would that
18:12require a change of law
18:14or are existing laws
18:16in your view sufficient, sir?
18:18If the collegium is serious
18:20this is a good collegium, they are honest judges
18:22if they are serious
18:24they should really withdraw judicial work
18:26from him by an order of the
18:28court, a judicial order and they
18:30should allow CBI to prosecute
18:32him forthwith. CBI
18:34should be allowed to prosecute him, so register
18:36an FIR and prosecute. Yes,
18:38absolutely, there is no other way. You can't
18:40send a message to these kind of
18:42horrible judges across the country
18:44unless you start acting
18:46against them. See, problem is
18:48that judges always
18:50want to protect their own. We have seen
18:52in Chief Justice Gogoi's case
18:54when he was facing such... Sir, for the moment
18:56if you permit, I'll stay on this case
18:58I'll tell you why
19:00I have to throw this open to a bigger panel but
19:02I don't want to lose you and I want to get your thoughts
19:04on what the Chief Justice has done
19:06in the instant case, for example
19:08isn't the CGI led collegium
19:10doing the right thing by asking
19:12the Chief Justice of Delhi High Court
19:14to ascertain all facts
19:16then take a considered decision
19:18on the basis of facts that are known to them
19:20Sir. See,
19:22it is one way of doing it but I feel
19:24that every public servant
19:26or you know
19:28who is found with this kind
19:30of unaccounted cash, we saw in that
19:32West Bengal Minister's case
19:34where you know large number of cash was found
19:36from his house and his girlfriend's house
19:38we saw all that and media
19:40and he was arrested and he appears to be
19:42still in jail or maybe he was bailed out
19:44I don't know. But if every public servant
19:46faces this kind of scrutiny
19:48forthwith, why should judges
19:50not face? In the garb of independence
19:52of judiciary, you cannot allow
19:54judges to enjoy corruption
19:56and that's what is happening
19:58That's a very strong point you are making
20:00Sir. Go on, please complete your point
20:02Sir. Answer is
20:04instead of you know
20:06executive taking over
20:08the collegium should itself
20:10go into this case in less than
20:1224 hours. If they are satisfied
20:14that there is no explanation
20:16forthcoming about this unaccounted cash
20:18they should immediately order
20:20prosecution by CBI. They
20:22should declare. So that's the
20:24only way to move forward. Otherwise
20:26I mean everything will be hidden
20:28and people will forget these cases in the past
20:30We saw that Punjab case where
20:32cash was found from a residence
20:34outside the judge or something. Somebody was
20:36delivering. And I know
20:38And there are multiple other cases
20:40This ends up becoming statistics
20:42We talk about it a couple of days and then
20:44it's all consigned
20:46to the bin of history
20:48Mr. Dawe for joining me here on India
20:50today as always
20:52Many thanks Sir. I now
20:54want to bring into this conversation
20:56Vikas Singh
20:58former Additional Solicitor General of India
21:00also Senior Advocate in the Supreme Court
21:02Sir. Welcome
21:04Does this show the higher judiciary
21:06in poor light
21:08in your view the action
21:10taken so far or the lack of it
21:12So according to me
21:14it's a very very difficult
21:16time for the higher judiciary today
21:18This kind of an allegation
21:20is you know really damaging
21:22the credibility of the institution
21:24which is the higher judiciary
21:26and it is definitely a moment
21:28for the
21:30all of us to introspect and when I say
21:32all of us I include myself being
21:34you know been the President of the
21:36Supreme Court for three terms
21:38and I feel that I owe something to the institution
21:40to see that things
21:42move in the right direction
21:44and as far as
21:46this judge is concerned I am sure
21:48very soon he will be handed
21:50over to the law enforcement agencies
21:52It's a matter of couple
21:54of days where the Chief Justice will do his
21:56preliminary inquiry
21:58This preliminary inquiry is not
22:00a shield for the judge. It's basically
22:02some kind of a check
22:04that a frivolous case should not
22:06reach into the law enforcement
22:08agencies. It's not meant to be
22:10a cover up by any standard
22:12at least in the
22:14I feel in the term of the present
22:16Chief Justice. This cover up should
22:18not happen. I am a little surprised
22:20that how the Collegium agreed
22:22to transfer him from a
22:24small Allahabad High Court to a very important
22:26Delhi High Court and whichever Collegium
22:28was responsible for that should be made
22:30answerable. This is actually a
22:32very very serious
22:34issue and also this is
22:36high time that we try to weed out
22:38all the
22:40black sheep in the system
22:42and set
22:44a very strong example
22:46of him and
22:48see that all those people
22:50who are peddling with justice
22:52are taken to task including the
22:54judges who are involved in the peddling
22:56Sir since you mentioned
22:58that his coming from Allahabad
23:00to Delhi should be looked into
23:02Anil Tiwari, President of the Allahabad
23:04High Court Bar Association and he'll be joining
23:06us in a bit. He said in a letter
23:08that if 15 lakh rupees are found
23:10at the house of any common person
23:12he'd be sent to jail but
23:14cash x amount
23:16I'm just going with x amount because we don't have
23:18on authority how much cash
23:20was recovered or found at the
23:22judge's house. He's being given
23:24ghar wapsi. Is
23:26Allahabad High Court a dustbin?
23:28Sir, you think this criticism
23:30is justified? 100%
23:32justified and I
23:34personally feel that transfer is
23:36never a solution
23:38or a way forward in a matter like
23:40this. The only thing that should
23:42happen after that whatever brief inquiry
23:44the Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court is
23:46doing should be to
23:48you know
23:50stop all judicial work being given to him
23:52and there is a precedent for
23:54that. If you remember when the Bombay High Court
23:56faced a similar controversy of four
23:58senior judges being
24:00alleged to be involved in corruption
24:02they were all not given any
24:04judicial work and the Bar Association
24:06passed a resolution and they were all made to resign.
24:08So I think this is high time
24:10that this action is
24:12taken of withdrawing judicial work
24:14from him and then asking
24:16him to resign and if he doesn't
24:18resign then continue to withdraw judicial
24:20work from him and start
24:22the impeachment process and I
24:24hope the political
24:26dispensation also or the
24:28political class so to say because that's
24:30something which is entirely in their
24:32domain. Take the
24:34impeachment process forward
24:36and to its logical end because
24:38unfortunately there has never been any
24:40impeachment in this country in spite of
24:42you know serious allegations
24:44being made earlier as well. But it's such a
24:46long winded process
24:48given the fact that
24:50judges have to be insulated but in
24:52cases of corruption can that
24:54process and should that process
24:56be made much
24:58smaller or can judges
25:00of the, can the Collegium
25:02recommend any action, can that
25:04be done in this case for example because the question
25:06that I want to know, the CGI
25:08led Collegium, they're doing the right thing, first
25:10get to know facts from Chief Justice Upadhyay
25:12of the Delhi High Court and then
25:14decide what action is to be
25:16taken or what next course of action has to
25:18be recommended sir?
25:20So this report probably from the
25:22Chief Justice should come by tomorrow
25:24and I think by Monday the Collegium should
25:26meet and take a final call of what should
25:28happen. And the moment the
25:30Collegium takes a call that he has
25:32to face the law, then the criminal
25:34justice system will
25:36kick in. So there is no question of stopping
25:38that. That will not, that will
25:40already, that will start the moment
25:42this clearance is given by the
25:44Collegium. And as far as the
25:46impeachment is concerned, that is a long
25:48process that may take time, may happen,
25:50may not happen. But the
25:52kind of pressure that the
25:54civil society can create
25:56in this matter or even the Bar Association
25:58can create in this matter,
26:00it could compel the learned judge
26:02to resign and
26:04save his face
26:06from any further
26:08criticism. But all that
26:10will happen or unfold in the next couple of
26:12days. Let's see how things... What is the
26:14maximum that the Chief Justice of India
26:16led Collegium can do once
26:18they have ascertained facts, once facts
26:20are known to them? What are their options?
26:22What's maximum they can do? Just recommend
26:24a CBI inquiry
26:26or stop any cases going to
26:28him? Or is there something more that they can do?
26:30So, constitutionally,
26:32this
26:34stopping judicial
26:36work is not something which is there
26:38spelt out in the constitution.
26:40But assigning judicial work is
26:42the job of the Chief Justice of the
26:44respective High Court. And the
26:46Collegium can always request the Chief Justice
26:48of the High Court to not give any work to a particular
26:50judge. And that has happened in the past
26:52and that is something which is normally
26:54accepted. And asking
26:56the law to, you know,
26:58take into, take
27:00its usual course by
27:02starting the CBI investigation,
27:04permitting the ED to get in and
27:06asking them to look into all the transactions
27:08that he must have done with regard to
27:10the money trail, etc. All that
27:12can start immediately. And
27:14for that, the impeachment need not
27:16wait. So, I personally
27:18feel that the law can
27:20be and should be set in motion
27:22if there is a case of corruption
27:24or if there is a case of
27:26prima facie case of corruption or wrongdoing.
27:28And also, this is also
27:30a time to introspect on the Collegium
27:32system itself.
27:34If such a judge can be transferred from Allahabad
27:36to Delhi or if judges are getting
27:38appointed without
27:40a proper credibility and integrity
27:42check, I feel even
27:44the merit is not being considered properly
27:46when the Collegium is appointing judges.
27:48So, this is a high time that they reinvented
27:50the Collegium system and
27:52made it more transparent.
27:54And also, they reach
27:56out to find out the right names rather
27:58than the lobbying,
28:00person lobbying to become judges.
28:02Lobbying to become judges, according to me,
28:04is a very very dangerous precedent
28:06and the person who lobbies to
28:08become a judge should be disqualified
28:10on that basis alone. And that is how
28:12they can reinvent themselves and you know
28:14set in a procedure
28:16for selecting people to the higher judiciary.
28:18That's a very pertinent point.
28:20All the, you know,
28:22elements who are tainted,
28:24so to say. Because we all know
28:26tainted names, you know, in the bar.
28:28And they can easily be
28:30identified. There are peddlers
28:32of justice amongst the
28:34corridors of power and they can easily
28:36take you, if they are
28:38taken up and arrested, they can always
28:40take you to the
28:42judge who is also involved in
28:44peddling of justice.
28:46This also should happen. Should it then go
28:48back to the government to appoint judges
28:50through a process
28:52where at least, you know,
28:54the government appoints judges or
28:56will that mean government interference in judiciary
28:58and the debate comes back all over again?
29:00So, I am not in favour of government
29:02appointing the judges but I am definitely
29:04in favour of the government having
29:06a say, at least
29:08in either
29:10having a secretariat or in
29:12you know, suggesting
29:14names or in deciding
29:16the eligibility for becoming a judge.
29:18I will give you an example. So, a person
29:20is appointed a judge whose
29:22income is less than what a judge is
29:24getting as salary. Now, that's
29:26something which is completely unacceptable.
29:28Why should anybody be appointed
29:30if he is getting less? So, there should be
29:32clear cut, you know, sort of
29:34eligibilities
29:36which somebody should meet and
29:38only those people who meet that eligibility
29:40should be considered for
29:42elevation and in the process if government
29:44also is able to recommend some names
29:46or have a permanent secretariat to go
29:48through those names, look into the
29:50credibility part. In any case, when the
29:52matter goes to the IB, they look at the credibility
29:54part. Absolutely, yes. So, that
29:56can be done even earlier. I don't
29:58understand why can't they be associated
30:00at the earlier stage but
30:02once the names are finally
30:04shortlisted, then let the
30:06collegium decide. But what is happening
30:08today that the names that are being shortlisted
30:10are very few of people whom the collegium
30:12judges know rather than, you know, the
30:14best names which are available in the system.
30:16Mr. Vikas Singh for joining me
30:18here on India Today. As always,
30:20many thanks, sir. Thank you.
30:22Let me now throw this open for a
30:24wider discussion and I want to quickly
30:26cut across and bring into this conversation
30:28Mr. Tiwari, president of the Allahabad
30:30High Court Bar Association. Sir, you've
30:32written a very, very strong letter.
30:34Many thanks for joining me.
30:36You know,
30:38let me first begin by asking
30:40you and before I introduce all our
30:42other guests, I have Diljit Alwalia joining
30:44me. Mr. Bhandari joins me on the
30:46broadcast as does Adesh Agrawala, senior
30:48advocate in the Supreme Court. Many,
30:50many thanks, gentlemen. But Mr. Tiwari,
30:52to you first,
30:54why don't you want him to come back to
30:56the High Court right now because
30:58nothing has been proven
31:00as yet. Why do you think his
31:02coming back to Allahabad would make the
31:04High Court a dustbin?
31:08I've seen the comments of my colleagues,
31:10my senior colleagues. Mr. Vikas was also
31:12saying something.
31:14I want to clarify
31:16my stand. Go on, sir.
31:18What has been done
31:22with Mr.
31:24Yashwant? It's not
31:26a question of one individual judge.
31:28Yashwant
31:30Verma is not
31:32an issue.
31:34Issue is the public faith
31:36in Judicial System.
31:38This
31:40incident has created a situation
31:42in the entire country
31:44that public
31:46confidence, trust
31:48has shaken.
31:50I say
31:52in a strong word
31:54that what damage has
31:56been done cannot be
31:58repaired at all. Even if
32:00Mr. Yashwant Verma comes with
32:02an explanation or he is found
32:04innocent in the inquiry, not inquiry.
32:06My
32:08statement is that
32:10damage to the public
32:12trust has already done.
32:14Nothing, nobody
32:16can repair it now by
32:18any kind of explanation.
32:20But
32:22sir, unless
32:24there is due process of
32:26law, you know,
32:28wouldn't then the Collegium
32:30be taking action
32:32without giving him a fair hearing? Abhimanyu
32:34Bhandari, are we
32:36jumping the gun on this? Hanging
32:38him before he is given a chance to defend himself?
32:40What Collegium
32:42has done? Now, look,
32:44just for a moment.
32:46Go on, sir. Mr. Tiwari, complete your points.
32:48What Collegium has done?
32:50Collegium has done
32:52with an order, with a recommendation
32:54for transfer to Allahabad High Court.
32:56I am putting a question to
32:58myself.
33:00The man who is not fit for
33:02the Delhi High Court
33:04is fit for Allahabad High Court.
33:06Whether Allahabad High Court is a
33:08dustbin? You want to
33:10throw a paper
33:12which cannot be used
33:14in Delhi High Court, is not
33:16liked by the people over there.
33:18Whether we are going to welcome
33:20him? First,
33:22since Supreme Court has created
33:24this, Collegium has created this issue
33:26and that is why we made such
33:28a remark. Fair enough, sir.
33:30What should have been done? How should the Supreme Court have done this?
33:32The very first
33:34moment, Collegium should have
33:36taken back the judicial work from him.
33:38They should have said,
33:40we will not give you the judicial work,
33:42let this matter be examined.
33:44Let this matter be examined.
33:46Let this matter be clarified.
33:48There will be fact-finding, whatever you do.
33:50You have given the chance
33:52to the public that you are
33:54angry.
33:56You want to do something.
33:58Let me quickly bring in Dr. Adesh Agrawala
34:00also into this conversation.
34:02I have Abhimanyu Bhandari back. I had lost him for a second.
34:04Abhimanyu Bhandari, are we jumping
34:06the gun on this? Is he being
34:08hanged before being given a chance
34:10to defend himself?
34:14Sorry,
34:16Abhimanyu, can you hear me?
34:18I can hear you now.
34:20Okay, go on.
34:22Is Justice Varma being hanged
34:24before being given a chance to defend himself
34:26by transferring him
34:28or all that is being said about him
34:30in the country?
34:32What is absolutely shocking
34:34in this entire case is that after
34:36so many hours, we have got a categorical
34:38press release by none other
34:40than the Director of
34:42Fire Services, Mr. Garg,
34:44who's gone on media and has given
34:46an official statement that not a
34:48single penny was found.
34:50That when they went there to douse the fire,
34:52no cash was recovered.
34:54And this is what is shocking. None of
34:56us here on this panel were there.
34:58You, me, none of the lawyers were there.
35:00No one who has given a comment
35:02on this story was there. Please remember
35:04that a constitutional judge
35:06who is empowered
35:08by the constitution to protect the rights of
35:10all our citizens, including our right
35:12to speech, is actually the most vulnerable
35:14person because he can't protect his own right
35:16because he's not allowed to speak in his defense.
35:18He's like a cloistered nun.
35:20And what is shocking in this case is
35:22that we are going on using these terms
35:24pile of cash, 15 crores.
35:26Okay.
35:28Where all these numbers come from?
35:30Why has he been transferred?
35:32Why is the Fire Services Director
35:34saying not a penny was found?
35:36And if that is the case,
35:38then this is a shocking case
35:40where a constitutional judge is being
35:42attacked.
35:44Let me once again
35:46bring in
35:48Anil Tiwari, President of the Allahabad
35:50High Court.
35:52Before Anil Tiwari
35:54steps in, another thing. We were told
35:56in the morning by press releases
35:58that the collegium has already made a decision
36:00because if the collegium,
36:02something as powerful as the collegium
36:04of the Supreme Court of India has made
36:06a decision, then it has a lot of sanctity
36:08on the minds of everybody.
36:10But now we come to know from the press release
36:12made by the Supreme Court, it begins
36:14by saying that misinformation is being spread
36:16about the judge. Yes.
36:18Now Gaurav, I am not here for the judge
36:20or not for the judge. I am here
36:22for the system. I am concerned
36:24that by making a false media
36:26report and by a few tweets
36:28can you damage a constitutional
36:30judge? Can you damage someone's
36:32career? I am
36:34actually shocked and appalled.
36:36No, so am I.
36:38But today the person who was actually
36:40there at the site says nothing was found
36:42not a single penny.
36:44When was this said? My producer is just
36:46cross-checking this, what you are saying on the broadcast
36:48right now. We are just
36:50cross-checking. You are saying that fire service
36:52has issued a statement just now.
36:54The head of department of fire service
36:56made a press release.
36:58That press release has just come out. Please look at
37:00that press release. Number two. Well, as soon as that
37:02press release is in public domain, if it's been shared
37:04with you. I will
37:06share it. I was shocked.
37:08Don't share it with me. We will get it from the fire department.
37:10We will get it from the fire department
37:12and we will be the first to put it out the
37:14moment it is out in public domain.
37:16But I want to bring in Adesh Agarwala. Give me a moment.
37:18Give me a moment because
37:20be that, if that is
37:22the case Mr. Agarwala,
37:24it's happened rather
37:26late in the day.
37:28If that press release has come out only
37:30now, after all that has been said
37:32through the day in Rajya Sabha,
37:34if this fire happened
37:36on the 14th and
37:38if it was discussed in the parliament
37:40today and a press release is coming
37:42out at 8.30 as our friend
37:44is telling us Mr. Bhandari,
37:46then it would indicate that
37:48another fire is being put out.
37:52Mr. Bhandari is totally right.
37:54If one reporter,
37:56one newspaper report and spoil
37:58the reputation of entire judiciary,
38:00it is not the question of
38:02Mr. Verma,
38:04Justice Verma. It has spoiled
38:06the reputation of entire
38:08judiciary and
38:10transfer of a judge to
38:12home state, home high court
38:14is not a punishment.
38:16And no permission
38:18even
38:20this concerned judge is to be consulted.
38:22If he is
38:24being sent to other high court,
38:26then he has to be consulted.
38:28And when police says
38:30nothing recovered, when Supreme
38:32Court says that false reports
38:34are being
38:36distributed and used
38:38in press media, this has
38:40totally shattered the system.
38:42Actions should be taken actually
38:44if we want to protect.
38:46And I'm sorry, you were
38:48interviewing those people
38:50who don't know the law.
38:52Sir,
38:54I'm sure they've been
38:56former additional solicitor general of India
38:58and senior advocates like
39:00yourself.
39:02But I want to bring
39:04in Dilji Talwalia also into this
39:06conversation quickly and my apologies for coming
39:08to you so late.
39:10How do you make the system more
39:12transparent because very clearly
39:14the system cannot be
39:16manipulated in such a way that
39:18a report comes out, is discussed in
39:20parliament, is discussed in public domain
39:22and suddenly we are told that none
39:24of this has happened. How do you make the system
39:26more transparent? How do you make the system
39:28more accountable, sir?
39:34Now, first
39:36important point which I want to make is
39:38that we are talking about the effect
39:40of this incident on to the faith of
39:42the common man. But kindly also
39:44keep in mind that such
39:46incidents have a very
39:48profound effect on the judges
39:50themselves. The prestige
39:52of the judges, the prestige of the entire
39:54institution. Second
39:56point is that I'm not going
39:58to go into the merits of it whether
40:00the fire department today
40:02after three days or four days is saying
40:04that not a single penny was there.
40:06I don't want to get into that. The
40:08important point here is that
40:10transfer is
40:12not one of the solutions
40:14to such situations.
40:16Immediately the judicial
40:18work has to be withdrawn
40:20from the judge.
40:22Immediately. Rest
40:24of the things can follow. Like they
40:26say that Caesar's wife has to
40:28be above suspicion. A judge
40:30if an allegation like
40:32this has been made and there is
40:34material. It is not that a wild allegation
40:36has been made. They are saying that there
40:38is a huge amount of unaccounted cash which
40:40has been recovered. It may be a false
40:42allegation for all one knows.
40:44But the very fact that an allegation
40:46like this has been made.
40:48Where is this material? What material?
40:50Please let's have an objective discussion.
40:52There is no doubt what Mr. Diljit
40:54is saying is correct if there
40:56is material. But there is no material.
40:58That's what I'm saying. I was shocked.
41:00As an advocate, as a citizen, I was shocked.
41:02And I'm telling you when the story broke
41:04out this morning, there was nothing
41:06in any of these stories that whether the police was
41:08asked, whether the fire department was asked.
41:10Then the fire department is coming
41:12out and now saying there was nothing.
41:14So there's a statement that's come from the Delhi
41:16Fire Chief only now. It's only
41:18now that a statement has come
41:20from...
41:22...
41:24...
41:26...
41:28...
41:30...
41:32...
41:34...
41:36...
41:38...
41:40...
41:42...
41:44...
41:46...
41:48...
41:50...
41:52...
41:54...
41:56...
41:58...
42:00...
42:02...
42:04...
42:06...
42:08...
42:10...
42:12...
42:14...
42:16...
42:18...
42:20...
42:22...
42:24...
42:26...
42:28...
42:30...
42:32...
42:34...
42:36...
42:38...
42:40...
42:42...
42:44...
42:46...
42:48...
42:50...
42:52...
42:54...
42:56...
42:58...
43:00...
43:02...
43:04...
43:06...
43:08...
43:10...
43:12...
43:14...
43:16...
43:18...
43:20...
43:22...
43:24...
43:26...
43:28...
43:30...
43:32...
43:34...
43:36...
43:38...
43:40...
43:42...
43:44...
43:46...
43:48...
43:50...
43:52...
43:54...
43:56...
43:58...
44:00...
44:02...
44:04...
44:06...
44:08...
44:10...
44:12...
44:14...
44:16...
44:18...
44:20...
44:22...
44:24...
44:26...
44:28...
44:30...
44:32...
44:34...
44:36...
44:38...
44:40...
44:42...
44:44...
44:46...
44:48...
44:50...
44:52...
44:54...
44:56...
44:58...
45:00...
45:02...
45:04...
45:06...
45:08...
45:10...
45:12...
45:14...
45:16...
45:18...
45:20...
45:22...
45:24...
45:26...
45:28...
45:30...
45:32...
45:34...
45:36...
45:38...
45:40...
45:42...
45:44...
45:46...
45:48...
45:50...
45:52...
45:54...
45:56...
45:58...
46:00...
46:02...
46:04...
46:06...
46:08...
46:10...
46:12...
46:14...
46:16...
46:18...
46:20...
46:22...
46:24...
46:26...
46:28...
46:30...
46:32...
46:34...
46:36...
46:38...
46:40...
46:42...
46:44...
46:46...
46:48...
46:50...
46:52...
46:54...
46:56...
46:58...
47:00...
47:02...
47:04...
47:06...
47:08...
47:10...
47:12...
47:14...
47:16...
47:18...
47:20...
47:22...
47:24...
47:26...
47:28...
47:30...
47:32...
47:34...
47:36...
47:38...
47:40...
47:42...
47:44the collegium decision to transfer him. What needs to be done in the most transparent manner
47:49for facts to come out in public domain, sir? Mr. Gaurav, one thing is very clear. A stand of
47:57the Supreme Court was in the earlier hours that he has been recommended for transfer.
48:03And thereafter, a report comes that some in-house inquiry has been ordered and Delhi High Court
48:09Chief Justice has been asked to submit a report. Right? Now in the evening hours,
48:15Supreme Court release is there that no such recommendation has been made. And far she,
48:20as Mr. Agnew has stated, that has come with a statement that no case is recovered.
48:25All this entire incident has supported my stand that judicially is not fair with this incident
48:35and something is being covered up and therefore the public just again shut up. This is very,
48:42very shameful. Mr. Bhandari, you wanted to respond. Mr. Bhandari, I also want to say what
48:50the Supreme Court said. There is misinformation and rumours. Okay, Mr. Tiwari, take 10 seconds.
48:57Only one second. We have already notified the General House that is going to be held on Monday
49:09in the presence of 15,000 lawyers. And whatever the decision will be taken, we will implement
49:15that decision. But we will not accept any corrupt judge. That's all. Sir, but that is for due
49:23process of law to decide whether corrupt or not. Mr. Bhandari, quickly, sir. Yes, sir.
49:31Three facts. Three facts, Gaurav. Fact number one, the Supreme Court Collegium has not made
49:36any resolution other than a release that has been made this afternoon. That is the first time
49:41the Supreme Court Collegium has made a release. That release says that misinformation is being
49:46spread against a particular judge. That's the way the release starts with. One. Second, it says
49:51that because of certain events and because of certain press release or whatever, we are awaiting
49:57a report from none other than the Honourable the Chief Justice of Delhi High Court to give a report
50:02today. Yes. So till now, there is no report with the Collegium is considered and Collegium has not
50:06made any view on the matter. Fair enough. The morning that the person has been transferred
50:11was wrong. Now number two, we were told that there is an allegation that cash has been found.
50:16Who made the allegation? Where was the cash found? How much is the cash? We don't know.
50:21No press report says that. No one says that. While figures people are throwing on Twitter.
50:25Yes. Now the Delhi Fire Services for the first time comes up and gives a categorical statement,
50:30which I have seen and you have seen and the whole world is now, which says no cash was found.
50:34In fact, we've just put it up here on India, on India today.
50:39Because this whole number game that is being thrown out, you know, today.
50:42No, that's exactly why we didn't put out any numbers.
50:46And the authority with which lawyers, various people are just kind of making
50:49allegations is actually pretty disturbing. I am not for any side, but I am for the system,
50:55just like Mr. Adish Agarwala said. Absolutely, absolutely.
50:58And judges are every day fighting for what? For justice.
51:03Fighting for justice and we will continue to track developments on this story,
51:08gentlemen, very closely. I've run out of time on this part of the show.
51:12The Supreme Court also did say the Collegium in that statement. Justice Upadhyay has commenced
51:17the in-house inquiry procedure, collecting evidence and information. We will track this
51:23story. That is all I have for you on the show this evening. Many thanks for watching.
51:26News and updates continue on India Today. Stay with us.