The Supreme Court Collegium recommended the repatriation of Delhi High Court judge Justice Yashwant Varma, who is facing a probe into the alleged discovery of huge cash from his residence, to his parent Allahabad High Court.
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00:00So, who will judge the judges?
00:02Is an in-house inquiry sufficient in a case like this?
00:06What is now the ideal way to probe our judges?
00:08How do we restore public faith in judiciary?
00:15Joining me now to answer those big questions, two very special guests.
00:18I'm joined by Justice Madan Lokur, retired Supreme Court judge, and by Justice Sanjeev
00:23Banerjee, former Chief Justice of the High Courts of Madras and Meghalaya.
00:28Great, both of you joining me on the show.
00:30That central question, who will judge the judges, is an in-house inquiry of the kind
00:35that has been ordered by the present Chief Justice, in your view, good enough?
00:39I ask this to both of you.
00:41Justice Lokur, why don't you take that first?
00:43Is this in-house procedure good enough to restore public faith in the judiciary?
00:47Yes, thank you, Rajdeep.
00:50You know, so far as the present inquiry that you are adverting to about the cash being
00:57found at the residence of a judge, I don't think the present in-house inquiry would
01:03be sufficient because there are a lot of issues that have been raised.
01:09So it will have to be a sort of an investigation, both by the police and by the fire department
01:16because of the response given by the judge.
01:20But you know, it depends upon each case.
01:24There are some cases in the past where the in-house inquiry has worked.
01:30For example, I remember doing a case in 2008 when I was a judge in Delhi High Court.
01:36Two Chief Justices were also judges in the in-house inquiry and we did a very good job.
01:45You know, we gave a report in a short time.
01:48So that's not a problem.
01:49So it really depends upon each case.
01:52Okay, but you're saying in this particular case, given the circumstances, it calls more
01:56for a police investigation or at least a substantial criminal investigation and not just the in-house
02:04inquiry.
02:05Am I correct?
02:06Yes.
02:07Yes.
02:08Yes.
02:09Okay.
02:10Justice Banerjee, your view?
02:11I think the first step is good and in-house inquiry is good enough, but that in-house
02:18inquiry should have, the members of that committee should have access to police and
02:23the fire brigade officials and rely on some investigation report from them.
02:30So in a sense, I'm agreeing with Justice Lokur, but it should be done by the committee.
02:36And once the committee comes out with a report, and it should be as quick as possible, thereafter,
02:42you know, law can take its own course.
02:47But should that report, Justice Banerjee, be made?
02:49So should that report, Justice Banerjee, be made public?
02:52Because the fact is the general fear is this in-house inquiry is extremely opaque.
02:57And therefore, the public's right to know will not be there.
02:59Today, the judge has already been transferred formally to Allahabad.
03:03So we will never know the reality unless that report is made public.
03:09I think it should be made public now that so many facts have come to light.
03:14We were dealing with allegations till day before yesterday.
03:16Several facts have come to light.
03:18And we must know who the other players involved are.
03:22There are several names which are doing the rounds.
03:25You know, if there are no fixers, you won't get people to fix.
03:29So we must find who are the persons at both ends.
03:36And we should get to the bottom of this.
03:39Because let's not hide facts.
03:40There is corruption in the judiciary.
03:43But it's probably not to the extent as you make it out to be at the moment that almost
03:48everyone is.
03:50Most judges are honest.
03:52But there are black sheep and they have to be exposed and thrown out.
03:57And that is what we as an institution have failed to do.
04:01And we must address this immediately.
04:04Justice Loco, do you agree with that, that if and when the report is ready, it should
04:09be made public?
04:10Justice Banerjee seems to believe that that is the only way you will eventually come to
04:15the root of the problem, which is corruption in a section of the judiciary.
04:19Yes.
04:21You see, it will eventually be made public.
04:24You know, in the sense that assuming the judge is found guilty by the in-house committee
04:33and the Chief Justice of India accepts the view of the in-house committee, the impeachment
04:38proceedings will start, in which event it will obviously become public.
04:43The problem may arise if the judge is found not guilty by the in-house committee.
04:51In that event, of course, if it's made public, good for the judge.
04:58You mentioned there briefly the word impeachment and the fear, Justice Loco, is that impeachment
05:03being such an arduous process, it is almost impossible to impeach the judge.
05:09Therefore, let us assume, not this specific judge, but any judge tomorrow who is found
05:14to be corrupt or is known to be corrupt, can he be impeached as easily, particularly in
05:19the higher judiciary?
05:20Now, the problem is in the lower judiciary, there's already allegations of massive corruption.
05:24It's now spreading to the higher judiciary.
05:26Is impeachment the answer?
05:27Do we need to find a better way, a quicker, better, time-bound way to ensure doodh ka
05:33doodh, paani ka paani?
05:35You see, impeachment is a process.
05:40After the process is over, after the process of impeachment is over, a person may be guilty,
05:44a person may be innocent.
05:47So impeachment is the process.
05:49Now I think everywhere, it is this process of impeachment that is followed.
05:57Now there are two things.
05:58One is that, should a committee sit to look into the matter before the process starts
06:09or should it be a little later?
06:11You see, because after this, once the impeachment process starts, assuming the judge is found
06:16guilty, under the Judge's Inquiry Act, there will be another inquiry.
06:22So one could argue that why should there be two inquiries?
06:30But this inquiry, the in-house inquiry, is only for the purpose of advising the Chief
06:34Justice of India whether something has gone wrong and if so, what is it that has gone
06:40wrong, so that if necessary, he can have an inquiry under the Judge's Inquiry Act.
06:47Impeachment specifically, Justice Banerjee, does it really work in the context of India
06:51and all these decades, it's never really reached fruition?
06:56It is a political process.
06:58So therefore, it's subject to, you know, political considerations.
07:04Once it cleared one of the houses and the judge resigned at the end of it without waiting
07:12for the fate in the other house.
07:15But you know, there should be an in-house process, a memorandum of procedure and none
07:21better than Justice Lokur and minds like him to set it down, both as to what should be
07:26done in cases like this, where there is a set of rules that would be followed and also
07:33about the collegium system.
07:35And I mentioned the collegium system because this must not be used as an excuse to dismantle
07:41the collegium system because then the independence of the judiciary will be gone.
07:46There are ways to improve it, but this must not be the excuse.
07:50As I hear it bandied all around that that should go, but until we have a better process,
07:56this is the best.
07:57You know, unless we are, until we have a better process, this is the best.
08:00But critics will say, Justice Banerjee, it's a cozy club.
08:04You know, will judges be able to really do the kind of honest job that they are required
08:09to do when it involves a fellow judge with whom they may have a relationship?
08:15You know, the committee members have been chosen, hopefully, with the confidence of
08:21the Chief Justice of India.
08:22And there you must have some faith in the institution, in the office of the Chief Justice
08:27of India, that he would have chosen men of merit, of impeccable integrity, who will get
08:34to the bottom of this.
08:35You know, the fact is, though, Justice Lokur, there is this diminishing public faith.
08:41Now, you could call it that this is speculation, these are rumors, this is gossip, innuendo.
08:45The corridors of the Supreme Court and various courts are full of all kinds of gossip and
08:51innuendo.
08:52But, daal mein kuch toh kala hai.
08:55So, therefore, do you really believe that an in-house system, a cozy club, can actually
09:01bring a resolution to cases of corruption?
09:05Yeah, you see, I don't know what you mean by a cozy club.
09:10OK, now look at it like this.
09:13If a bureaucrat commits a crime of, say, corruption, a departmental inquiry is held by whom?
09:24By his senior or somebody superior to him.
09:28If a policeman does something wrong, a departmental inquiry is held by whom?
09:35By a senior police officer.
09:37So, this system, you know, whether it pertains to bureaucrats, whether it pertains to the
09:43police, whether it pertains to judges, whether it pertains to anybody else, it's the people
09:48who are there, you know, their peers, who judge whether something wrong has been done
09:53or not.
09:55So, this cozy club idea, you know, it's a nice expression, but I don't think it works.
10:02OK, let me give you some hard facts, Justice Banerjee and Justice Lokot.
10:07Declaration of assets of high court judges.
10:10Less than 7% of high court judges in India have publicly declared their assets.
10:14Assets declared publicly only by 49 of 763 sitting high court judges.
10:18Zero judges from 18 of the 25 high courts have declared their assets.
10:22Justice Banerjee, should there be, therefore, compulsory mandatory asset declaration
10:26and an audit every year?
10:29Absolutely.
10:30Absolutely.
10:31That is imperative.
10:33But I don't think that the assets should be made public.
10:36That is where a lot of judges fear.
10:39But declaration of assets every year with an audit is absolutely imperative.
10:45And there should be some mechanism available to the judiciary itself to undertake this
10:52kind of an investigation and audit.
10:54There could be a judicial audit kind of service.
10:58Like there should be a judicial management service.
11:03Justice Lokot, do you agree with Justice Banerjee?
11:06Compulsory mandatory asset declaration?
11:09Absolutely.
11:10Absolutely.
11:11You see, so far as the district judiciary is concerned, all right, they have to declare
11:16their assets every year.
11:19And they put it in a sealed cover and give it to the district judge and perhaps give
11:23it to the high court.
11:25All right.
11:26Now, so far as government officials are concerned, they also have to declare their assets.
11:30If not every year, every two years.
11:34Okay.
11:35So there you have it.
11:36Asset declaration is a clarion call being given by the former judges saying there must
11:42be compulsory mandatory asset declaration by our judges and a proper audit there.