Wesleyan University President Michael Roth is one of many scholars across the country who have spoken out against the Trump administration’s recent assault on higher education and the First Amendment, urging peers to stand up for free speech and resist “this effort to make everyone align with the government.” “People have a right to express their opinions,” says Roth. “The law should not dictate what your opinion is.”
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#donaldtrump #firstamendment #university
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NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome to Donald Trump's America, where a legal permanent resident of the United States
00:03can be snatched from their home by a government agent, detained, arrested, and as the government
00:08attempts to kick them out of the country, be uninformed as to what exactly they are
00:12being held for, all while failing to properly explain the legal grounds for any of it.
00:17In a true social post on Monday, President Trump boasted that, quote, ICE proudly apprehended
00:21and detained Mahmoud Khalil, a radical foreign pro-Hamas student on the campus of Columbia
00:26University.
00:27This is the first arrest of many to come, end quote.
00:30After Mahmoud Khalil's arrest, the Department of Homeland Security accused him of, quote,
00:34leading activities aligned to Hamas, end quote, but did not provide further details.
00:40You'll notice in those characterizations of Mr. Khalil, there's no description of
00:43a crime.
00:44There's not even an allegation of a crime.
00:46He's not accused of fighting for Hamas or of being a member of Hamas or of providing
00:51material support to Hamas, all of which would be prosecutable crimes given that Hamas is
00:56a designated terrorist organization in the United States.
01:00It appears Mahmoud Khalil's only misstep was expressing views that do not align with
01:04the Trump administration.
01:06Mahmoud Khalil is a Columbia University graduate student who has finished his studies and is
01:10set to graduate in May.
01:12He's an Algerian citizen of Palestinian descent married to a U.S. citizen.
01:18He has a green card, making him a legal permanent resident of the United States.
01:22Now, last year, Khalil played a prominent role in protests at Columbia against Israel's
01:27war in Gaza.
01:28It was one of many calling on the university to cut financial ties with Israel, given the
01:32ongoing war in Gaza and the continued suffering of Palestinian civilians.
01:37According to a government document that details Khalil's arrest, which was obtained by NBC
01:41News, the Department of Homeland Security cited a provision in the Immigration and Nationality
01:45Act, which says that someone can be deported if it is determined by the secretary of state
01:51that they, quote, would have serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United
01:56States, end quote.
01:58Serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States.
02:02And again, the only person who has the authority to determine that is the secretary of state,
02:08in this case, Marco Rubio.
02:10Immigration officials have still provided no evidence or specific accusations to support
02:15Khalil's deportation on those grounds, only Secretary of State Marco Rubio's determination
02:20that his mere presence in the United States could somehow have, quote, potentially serious
02:25adverse foreign policy consequences, end quote.
02:28Remember that.
02:29If everything's an emergency, then everybody's got a right to do whatever they want to do.
02:33One of Khalil's lawyers told the Associated Press, quote, they're trying to make an example
02:36out of him to chill others from making similar speech, end quote.
02:41Khalil's arrest is part of a broader assault on academic freedom.
02:44Just this week, the administration announced investigations into 60 universities for alleged
02:49anti-Semitism.
02:50Now, historically, universities have been critical centers for anti-war protests, for
02:54political dissent, precisely because they foster critical thinking and free inquiry,
03:01whether it's tasteful or distasteful.
03:03My next guest, Michael Roth, understands firsthand the challenges that university leaders face
03:08as they find themselves caught in the crosshairs of the Trump administration's assault on
03:11higher education.
03:13Roth, the president of Wesleyan University in Connecticut, emphatically refuses to submit
03:18to Trump's assault on the freedom of expression.
03:21He is, by the way, an ardent supporter of Israel.
03:23He's a strong advocate for free speech, and he sees no inherent conflict between those
03:27two views.
03:28He's strongly urging other university presidents to stand up for their students and to avoid
03:32the pitfall of what he calls institutional neutrality, which he describes as a misguided
03:37attempt to avoid controversy and ultimately an act of cowardice.
03:41Importantly, Roth warns of the danger in allowing Trump to exploit support for Israel as a cover
03:46for advancing authoritarian policies because, and this is the point, today they come for
03:52Mahmoud Khalil, whose opinions about Israel and Palestine you validly might not share.
03:57But tomorrow it could be you for your views that the government doesn't share.
04:02Writing in Slate, Roth warns, quote, University presidents must speak out against this attempt
04:06to control the political culture of our campuses from the White House.
04:11Neutrality here is a betrayal of our academic mission.
04:14What's next in this effort to ensure ideological conformity?
04:17Will those who speak out in favor of Ukraine be deemed misaligned with the pro-Putin agenda
04:22of the White House?
04:23If we just defend the speech or activities we like, on what basis do we resist authoritarianism?
04:30We shouldn't have to agree in order to offer our fellow citizens respect, due process,
04:34and basic human rights.
04:36Not in the land of the free.
04:38If we are not to find ourselves permanently aligned with tyranny, we must stand up now
04:42for those being targeted by the government hell-bent on using anti-terrorism and support
04:47for Israel as a cover for its own authoritarian agenda, end quote.
04:52Joining me now is Michael Roth himself, president of Wesleyan University.
04:55He's the author of multiple books, including The Student, A Short History.
04:58Michael, good to have you on the show.
05:01I want to just be clear.
05:02It's not an important point, but it's a relevant point.
05:04You are a staunch supporter of Israel.
05:07You are also a staunch supporter of free speech on campus.
05:10And you have, I don't know whether you've struggled with that or not, but you have arrived
05:15at a place where you do not find that there's inherent contradiction between those.
05:18In fact, you wrote in Slate, release Mahmoud Khalil, respect freedom of speech.
05:24Tell me a little about this.
05:25Yeah.
05:26Well, I have been described as, I think the word ardent has been used, an ardent supporter
05:33of Israel.
05:34I believe ardently in Israel's right to exist.
05:37I have been critical, like many Jews of the current administration in Israel and its war
05:43tactics in Gaza, and I have called publicly for a ceasefire in Gaza, I guess almost a
05:50year ago.
05:51And so, but again, that really shouldn't matter.
05:55What should matter is that people have a right to express their opinions and in a variety
06:00of ways with, of course, time and place restrictions and one has to obey the law, but the law should
06:07not dictate what your opinion is.
06:10And so, for me, it's been very important to preserve the rights of students, faculty,
06:16and staff to express their opinions in ways that allow for the mission of the university
06:23to continue.
06:24What very much worries me about this moment we're in is that there's a war on civil society
06:31from the Trump administration, an attempt to control not first universities, but I think
06:37chambers of commerce should be worried.
06:38I think churches and libraries should be worried, because traditionally in the United States,
06:43we actually don't have to agree with the people in the White House.
06:46We can be in an ecosystem of disagreement, of mutual respect, and we can do that in a
06:55way that contributes to the public good in this country.
07:00You've been a vocal critic of this concept of institutional neutrality, which some people
07:06are going to in the university sphere.
07:08But in the public sphere, lots of people are going to this idea that we're not going to
07:11get involved in things that are not either core to our mission.
07:13But for a university, it actually is core to your mission to explore and debate and
07:18argue and understand a pluralistic society in which views that are not aligned can coexist.
07:26That's right.
07:27And again, time and place restrictions are perfectly legitimate.
07:31Students at Wesleyan who want to protest in ways that disrupt the operations of the
07:35university face consequences, and I think that's entirely appropriate.
07:39However, the fact that we don't agree about support for Israel or about other topics in
07:45the world shouldn't matter in regard to their rights to voice their disagreements, voice
07:51their opinions.
07:53And so, I think as long as you preserve what I've called a safe enough space, where people
07:58are not intimidated and harassed.
08:00And of course, there were some instances of that at Columbia and elsewhere, where people
08:04were harassed and intimidated.
08:06I do think universities should stop that from happening, but they shouldn't use that as
08:11a cover for an authoritarian agenda, which I think is what's going on right now.
08:15So part of the problem with the authoritarian creep is often it starts by targeting groups
08:21or individuals who do not elicit much public sympathy.
08:24That's what's happening in the federal civil service, right?
08:26You don't really know what USAID does or what certain departments do, or people who
08:31have sympathies like Khalil does.
08:36But that's not the point that you're making.
08:37The point is, over time, this does become a sort of a form of censorship.
08:42It makes it palatable, and before you know it, it starts to reach into your own circle,
08:46and either Ali Velshi or President Roth have views that don't align with the government
08:51or somebody, and then we find ourselves in trouble.
08:55That's right.
08:56I mean, I just left tourist study to come and do this interview, so I am alert and maybe
09:02even more than a little alert about the rise of anti-Semitism.
09:05I think it is a tremendous problem around the world.
09:09But I am appalled when people use anti-anti-Semitism as a vehicle for making the central government
09:17more powerful in the United States.
09:19In America, we have this great old tradition of decentralization, where people have the
09:23right in their communities to have different points of view that don't have to line up
09:28with the government.
09:29And this effort to make everybody line up with the government is pernicious, and it
09:33will undermine our culture, it will undermine our scientific discovery, and it will be bad
09:38for political freedom.
09:39The Associated Press last night released a strong critique of Trump's ultimatum to Columbia
09:43University, which includes demands like ousting the leadership of an academic department.
09:48The report called it a stunning intrusion and a direct attack on academic freedom.
09:52They quoted a number of prominent scholars, including Erwin Chemerinsky, a constitutional
09:56law scholar, who called the move beyond the authority of the federal government.
10:00He said it's chilling to see the government try to control universities in this way.
10:04Joseph Howley from Columbia University is a professor, said that if the government can
10:07force a university department to shut down or to restructure, then, quote, we no longer
10:11have universities in this country.
10:14This is an important point, because when you think about this authoritarian creep around
10:18us, a number of people have said, at least we have the universities.
10:21Absolutely.
10:22And this, the letter to Columbia, they're starting with the admissions policies and
10:28they're getting all the way to graduation policies.
10:31It is wildly overreaching.
10:34We, again, I have my differences with some of my departments.
10:39You know, sometimes at night I'll say to my wife, I wish they would close that department.
10:43But that's nonsense.
10:44Of course, the department has its own authority, its own professional points of view.
10:49I don't have to agree with them to have them exist legitimately.
10:53The notion that the federal government is going to tell an academic department what
10:58to do, whether it's the Department of Anthropology or the Department of Biophysics, I mean, these
11:03guys don't know how to run a railroad.
11:06They're not, they don't know, they're certainly not going to tell you how to do molecular
11:09biology.
11:11And the ecosystem of research and the creation of new knowledge in universities has been
11:16so powerful for American prosperity, American freedom, American ingenuity, to have that
11:21disrupted by government overreach is a disaster for this country.
11:26Michael Roth, excellent conversation.
11:27Thank you for joining us this morning.
11:28Michael Roth is the president of Wesleyan University and the author of multiple books,
11:32including The Student, A Short History.