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00:00I spent 10 years at Princeton, it was long ago, in my day.
00:04Every year there was talk of people saying, we're almost there, by producing more energy
00:09than we put in, which would then make it an energy source for the world.
00:14They would say, oh, we're just five years away, and that was 30 years ago.
00:17So what's going on?
00:18You're almost there.
00:19Oh my God.
00:26This is StarTalk.
00:28And Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, I got with me Paul Mercurio.
00:33Paul.
00:34What's up?
00:35Co-hosting today.
00:36Good to see you, my friend.
00:37Good to see you, man.
00:38It's always fun.
00:39Love you.
00:40And you're always doing interesting stuff.
00:41I'm trying.
00:42Yeah.
00:43You got your own off-Broadway show?
00:44Yeah.
00:45And then it became Broadway, and now we're taking it out around the country.
00:47So I was going to ask you, when's it going to get on-Broadway?
00:49Well, we're coming back to it.
00:50I'm tired of seeing you in the streets off-Broadway.
00:52We ran into each other, with nine people, crossing the leech out of us.
00:56Off-Broadway.
00:58Yeah.
00:59Yeah.
01:00Called Permission to Speak, and it's directed by Frank Oz.
01:01And we love Frank Oz.
01:02Yeah, he's the best.
01:03And it involves people telling stories and connecting people through shared stories.
01:07So you're interacting with the audience?
01:08Yes.
01:09Yeah, cool.
01:10Bringing them on stage, just telling my own stories.
01:11We were just in Florida with it.
01:12We're going to be in Rhode Island.
01:13And people can go to paulmercurio.com to see where we're going to be.
01:16Mercurio.
01:17Mercurio.
01:18M-E-C-U-R-I-O.
01:19Love you.
01:20Love it.
01:21Love it.
01:22So, you know what we got today?
01:24When you want to be in arm's reach of a fusion expert.
01:27Fatima Ebrahimi.
01:28Did I pronounce that correctly?
01:29Fatima.
01:30Almost.
01:31Oh, almost.
01:32Fatima Ebrahimi.
01:33Yes, Fatima Ebrahimi.
01:34Yeah, see, I got that, the last one.
01:35Yeah.
01:36Okay.
01:37I love it.
01:38You have a PhD in plasma physics.
01:39That's a whole thing.
01:40Yes.
01:41Not just physics.
01:42Yes.
01:43Plasma.
01:44Very specific.
01:45Yes.
01:46Plasma.
01:47Plasma.
01:48Plasma.
01:49Plasma.
01:50Plasma.
01:51Plasma.
01:52Plasma.
01:53Plasma.
01:54Plasma.
01:55Plasma.
01:56And you're a research scientist at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, P-P-P-L.
02:01Out there in Princeton, New Jersey.
02:04Yes.
02:05Up Route 1, I think.
02:06Yes.
02:07Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:08You should come.
02:09There's a fabulous Home Depot right there, big fan.
02:15So this is, people have heard fusion, they've heard the word, and they've heard the word
02:23plasma, and most people think blood plasma.
02:25Right.
02:26This is a completely different plasma, right?
02:28Blood plasma is like what's left over in your body.
02:31Body, right.
02:32I mean, after you take out the red blood cells, I think.
02:34Right, exactly.
02:35Yeah, yeah.
02:36So this is not that at all.
02:37Right.
02:38No, not that at all.
02:39Let's start off, get the vocabulary on the table.
02:41What is a plasma?
02:42So plasma is the fourth state of matter, and it's 99% of observable universe is plasma.
02:52So it's really the first state of matter.
02:54Exactly.
02:55You want to think of it that way.
02:56Yes.
02:57And it's very unstable, right?
02:58It's unstable.
02:59No, not necessarily.
03:00It could be.
03:01Don't disagree with me.
03:02Just because you wrote notes doesn't mean you're correct.
03:05Okay?
03:06Continue, Fatima.
03:07It's actually, we are all floating in a plasma state in our universe.
03:17And if you want to see what is actually plasma is, is when electrons are kind of freely moving
03:26and charged particles, negative charged particles, ions, positive charged particles, it's basically
03:33a soup of, you know, charged particles is plasma is.
03:37All right.
03:38So why is it that we always, in physics, we see plasma joined together with the word fusion?
03:45Why are they relevant to each other?
03:48Because our sun, that Korean, that actually produces a lot of energy is through fusion
03:55energy, and that is in a plasma state.
04:01So plasma, in order to get a plasma, it has to be very hot.
04:05Yes.
04:06Another thing is a cold plasma.
04:07Is there?
04:08Yes, actually.
04:10For the case of fusion, it has to be 100 million degrees to actually achieve fusion.
04:17But plasmas, you know, they could have variety, you know, temperature, it could be low temperature
04:23plasmas.
04:24Then you're not going to have fusion.
04:25Exactly.
04:26You don't have that.
04:27Plasmas could also be lightning strikes.
04:29That's plasma.
04:31So I remember this, not a toy, this thing you could buy.
04:35Remember Spencer Gifts?
04:36Yeah.
04:37Anyone older than 70 will remember Spencer Gifts.
04:40Lava lamps.
04:41Yeah, lava lamps.
04:42Well, one of them was this ball that had this sort of glowing thing in it, and you put your
04:47hand on the ball and it would react to your hand touching the surface.
04:52Exactly, because it's charged particles, you know, all of these, you know, the plasma kind
04:57of responds.
04:58It makes it glow.
04:59Exactly, glow.
05:00Because particles could also, can de-excite and kind of produce photons and lights and
05:08things.
05:09Okay, so the electrons recombine, and every time they recombine, they give off light.
05:14Exactly.
05:15Excite and recombine and, you know, de-excite and you get the light.
05:21So that's a plasma that's not at very high temperature.
05:23Exactly, yes.
05:24Right, exactly.
05:25Okay.
05:26It was just...
05:27A candle is also a plasma.
05:28Or the flame.
05:29The flame of a candle is a, yeah.
05:31All right, so now you need high temperature for fusion.
05:33Yes.
05:34What are you fusing?
05:35It's actually required for fusion.
05:38High temperature is required to fuse really light atoms, hydrogen, and also isotrope of
05:48hydrogen, heavier hydrogen, deuterium, and a little bit heavier, tritium, with having
05:55two actually, neutrons.
05:59So they can collide and they can fuse, and it has to be really, really high temperature
06:04to be able to kind of overcome, you know, these forces and create a lot of energy through
06:11neutrons.
06:12So the forces are because you have a positively charged proton over here and another positively
06:19charged proton over here, light chargers repel.
06:22Right.
06:23Exactly.
06:24They don't want to get together.
06:25Right.
06:26Yes.
06:27And you're trying to overcome this...
06:28Yes.
06:29...because high temperature means higher speeds...
06:30Yes.
06:31Exactly.
06:32...within the soup.
06:33Yes.
06:34And you're able to achieve the high temperatures, or we're still working toward the temperatures
06:37have to be high enough?
06:38The temperature actually can get very high temperature.
06:41But are we there yet?
06:42Yes.
06:43That's what the protons ask on their long journeys.
06:44Are we there yet?
06:45Are we there?
06:46I have to go to the bathroom.
06:47We're not pulling over.
06:48Stop.
06:49Yes.
06:50We achieve really, actually in the experiments or facilities that we have to create, you
07:03know, high temperature plasmas to get to fusion, we really get to high temperatures.
07:10The temperature we actually achieve in a fusion experiment is even hotter, you know, than
07:16the center of the sun.
07:17The center of the sun is like 10 million degrees, something like that.
07:20Yes.
07:21This is 100 million degrees.
07:22What do you generate?
07:23What are you using?
07:24They're trying to make another star.
07:25Yes.
07:26But what do you generate?
07:27Shh.
07:28Don't tell anyone.
07:29This isn't on, is it?
07:30No?
07:31This is the kind of stuff that, like, when you were a little girl, were you doing these
07:38kinds of experiments in your basement?
07:40And then your parents said, we got to...
07:41No.
07:42That's how the nemesis to superheroes are done.
07:46I'm going to make something hotter than the center of the sun.
07:50We just got you an Easy-Bake Oven.
07:51Well, I'm going to turn it into...
07:52I gave it more power.
07:53I gave it more power.
07:54And now it's 10 million degrees.
07:55You know what I'm baking?
07:56Plasma.
07:57And you're going to like it.
07:58You want it with or without mozzarella cheese?
07:59Yes.
08:00No, and then the lights of the town go...
08:01That's Fatima again.
08:02Yes.
08:03You don't have to confess to that.
08:04That's fine.
08:05So how do you get high temperature?
08:06Yes.
08:07High temperature.
08:08High temperature.
08:09High temperature.
08:10High temperature.
08:11High temperature.
08:12High temperature.
08:13High temperature.
08:14High temperature.
08:16Yes.
08:17How?
08:18Because as I understand it, in order to make the plasma high temperature, something else
08:21has to be at a higher temperature than it.
08:24Is that right?
08:25You get the high temperature because plasmas, you know, carry electrons and current, electricity,
08:31current.
08:32You could say...
08:33Because they can.
08:34They can.
08:35Exactly.
08:36They can.
08:37So therefore, they can get to very high speed and high temperature.
08:41So the question is that, so you get this soup, where is it going to go?
08:47So how do you confine it?
08:50If it's 100 million degrees, what are you putting it in to contain it, to control it?
08:55To control it, put a lot of energy through magnets.
08:59Wait, wait.
09:00So a magnetic field, it's not a physical thing, so you can't melt that.
09:04Right.
09:05Right.
09:06And all your charged particles, they respond to magnetic field.
09:09Electromagnetism.
09:10Exactly.
09:11Right.
09:12It's another force that our universe is electromagnetic force, yes, that is long range.
09:18It's one of the fundamental forces, you know, electromagnetic forces everywhere, you know,
09:23our sun, all the stars, you know, wherever you have plasma, you have electromagnetic
09:30forces, and they respond to it.
09:32So you have the gas, you need to make the state of plasma, which means that you can,
09:39you know, have some waves going into the gas, like antennas, and create your plasma.
09:47You could induce inductively current into your particles, plasmas, it can go around
09:54your chamber, which we are talking about a tokamak chamber, a donut shaped chamber.
10:01So yeah.
10:02A tokamak.
10:03Yeah.
10:04Right, because Princeton has a tokamak.
10:05Yes.
10:06Yes, it has a tokamak.
10:07What does that word even mean?
10:08Yeah.
10:09Because it's Russian.
10:10Oh, it's Russian.
10:11That's a Russian name?
10:12It's a Russian, two Russian scientists called this configuration tokamak.
10:17Toko and Mac.
10:18Yeah.
10:19No, no.
10:20They were a great act in the 70s in Atlantic City.
10:23They worked the Stardust.
10:24Toko and Mac.
10:25They worked the Flamingo.
10:26Okay, so I did not know that.
10:28It's named for actual scientists.
10:30Very good.
10:31So when you say this-
10:32No, it's not actual scientists.
10:33The two scientists actually called it, it's kind of their invention, tokamak, yes.
10:37So when you say this chamber, the chamber is basically sort of harnessing or controlling
10:42the plasma.
10:43That's the donut shape.
10:44Yes, the donut shape, exactly.
10:45That is being heated up at incredible temperatures.
10:47Exactly.
10:48Various ways of heating the gas become plasma and heating the plasma to really, really high
10:55temperature, yes.
10:56But are we heating it to the point where we're at the cusp of being able to use nuclear fusion
11:02and get nuclear fusion that then propel rockets through space much more quickly?
11:08Yes.
11:09The rocket is a plasma propulsion.
11:10You actually get rid of the plasma you make from the back of the rocket.
11:14You're not confining it with magnetic field.
11:17So the plasma rockets don't use fusion?
11:19Not necessarily.
11:20They don't have to use fusion.
11:22But if you kind of, you know that in space we don't have any power or any, there is no
11:27gas station.
11:29The only thing we have is our sun sitting there and it's only going to give some amount
11:34of energy.
11:36There are rest stops with McDonald's.
11:39So if you want to go far, you need energy and you need fusion.
11:44If you're going to go and stay around with solar panels, you have enough energy to use
11:50locally.
11:51You could use that for just propulsion.
11:55I remembered reading, because I know enough to know that in any gas, at any temperature,
12:04not all particles are moving at the same speed.
12:07Some are slow.
12:08Some are fast.
12:09The temperature is the average speed that everybody's moving.
12:12All right.
12:13I remembered that there's some method where you can pick off the fastest moving particles
12:20and put them over here and their average temperature is going to be higher than where they came
12:25from.
12:26Here we go.
12:27Treat them special.
12:28That's what it is.
12:29Put them in the slower group.
12:30They're in the fast class.
12:31Yeah.
12:32They're in a special class.
12:33They're in a special class.
12:34You leave everybody else behind.
12:35Yeah.
12:36Oh my God.
12:37And so you're cherry picking the fastest moving particles.
12:39Is that a thing?
12:40Am I remembering that correctly?
12:42Conventionally, it's usually a collective heating.
12:46It's basically you have true current.
12:50It's like current.
12:51Now plasma also carry current.
12:54Current itself can heat.
12:56Really, it can actually, it's basically ohmic heating.
13:00That's one way of heating the plasma.
13:03So that heats up internally.
13:04Yes.
13:05Not from, it's not hotter on the outside.
13:08You make it hot on the inside.
13:09That's hot.
13:10That's one way.
13:11That's a conventional way of actually heating up the plasma, the first way to do it.
13:15Hey, StarTalk fans.
13:16I don't know if you know this, but the audio version of the podcast actually posts a week
13:23in advance of the video version.
13:26And you can get that in Spotify and Apple Podcasts and most other podcast outlets that
13:33are out there.
13:34Multiple ways to ingest all that is cosmic on StarTalk.
13:39I spent 10 years at Princeton and this is long ago.
13:42Yeah.
13:43I'm an old man now.
13:44In my day.
13:45We didn't have electricity.
13:46We would just yell and someone would hear us.
13:57So in my day at Princeton, every year there was talk of people saying we're almost there
14:05by producing more energy than we put in, which would then make it an energy source for the
14:11world.
14:12A very inexpensive energy source using readily available ingredients like hydrogen, which
14:18you will find at your neighborhood water molecule.
14:22They would say, oh, we're just five years away.
14:24And that was 30 years ago.
14:27So what's going on?
14:28You're almost there.
14:29Oh my God.
14:30Wait, wait.
14:31Let's back up.
14:32So Princeton has a tokamak, but Lawrence Livermore has a different configuration.
14:41So there are two approaches.
14:43One is just tokamak.
14:45Actually, Princeton has a special tokamak.
14:48It's called a spherical tokamak, which is kind of not like a donut, it's like a fat
14:53donut or cored apple.
14:56How is that different than a standard tokamak?
14:58The nice thing is that it's more compact.
15:01Oh, okay.
15:02So that's it.
15:03And other differences.
15:04But the main thing-
15:05So a really puffy donut.
15:06Exactly.
15:07Puffy.
15:08You could say that.
15:09A puffy donut.
15:10It was created by a fluffinator, which was a-
15:13I remember that.
15:14Oh my gosh.
15:15Fluffinator, remember?
15:16I think so.
15:17So it's a tokamak, but a spherical tokamak.
15:20And it's very special because of compactness and other things.
15:24And so by using magnetic field, you actually confine the plasma.
15:31Okay, so there's that.
15:32So now let's go to Lawrence Livermore in Livermore, California.
15:35The so-called inertial confinement means that by shooting lasers at very small dense
15:43target, you get fusion.
15:45So our plasma at PPPL Princeton Plasma Physics Lab is not that dense, but we have very high
15:52temperature.
15:54And so there's something we call a little bit specific, something called Lawson Criteria,
16:00which is basically the multiplication of the confinement time, how hot you get, your density.
16:07So each-
16:08All of that combined.
16:09Combined.
16:10And if it's larger than something, you say that, oh, I achieved fusion.
16:14So inertial confinement has more kind of-
16:17Generates a denser-
16:18Denser, exactly.
16:19So of all of those factors, is density the most important thing that gets you to-
16:24The sun gets high density for free because you're in the center of the frequency sun.
16:28It's dense there.
16:29So they get free density.
16:31But what you're generating at PPPL is not as dense.
16:35So sort of like it's what I would get at Walmart versus Saks.
16:39Like if I were buying a product, it would be like the lower end.
16:43That's the first time those two stories have ever been in the same sentence.
16:47Ever.
16:48Wait, so you can have it dense, but not hot, or hot, but not dense.
16:55Exactly.
16:56And some combination of those two will get you the fusion.
16:58Yes.
16:59On an optimum scale, yeah.
17:00Do you know the optimum relationship there?
17:03So, yes, we know the optimum is that you want to, first of all, fusion was achieved in 19,
17:12around 1995.
17:13Wait, I have to correct that.
17:16Fusion was achieved like in 1947.
17:19It was just uncontrolled, and we called it a bomb.
17:24At all times, she's referring to controlled fusion.
17:27Exactly.
17:28Now pick up the story where you left off.
17:30Where we're safe.
17:31We got fusion.
17:32We got it.
17:33It's everywhere.
17:34We got fusion.
17:35Correct.
17:36Exactly.
17:37Right.
17:38The H-bomb uses the A-bomb as a trigger for it.
17:41That's the scale of this.
17:42Yes.
17:43Correct.
17:44Exactly.
17:45The controlled fusion was done at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab in the device called TFDR,
17:56Test Fusion Reactor.
17:58It was obtained in-
18:02Achieved.
18:03Achieved.
18:04Yes.
18:05We obtained fusion.
18:06It was achieved in the 90s here at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab, and also at another experiment,
18:17Jet in Europe, later.
18:23About 10 million joule energy was, or 10 megawatt, million watt power was obtained.
18:35We've got fusion.
18:36The question is that-
18:37Wait.
18:38Wait.
18:39Wait.
18:40One joule per second is one watt.
18:41Yes.
18:42Yes.
18:43Okay.
18:44She's thinking joules in energy, but watts is a power.
18:45Okay.
18:46Okay.
18:47Watt is the correct one.
18:48It's 10 megawatt.
18:49Actually, the record is 17 megawatt later, so it's around that much.
18:55I have a question.
18:56You have this big fat donut, and the whole thing is plasma, but if you hit the fusion
19:03threshold, does the whole thing undergo fusion?
19:08Because in Lawrence Livermore, they know if it's going to happen, it's going to happen
19:12in that little pocket that they created.
19:14Yeah.
19:15It's basically in the vessel, in the core of the vessel.
19:20So it's kind of your plasma, it's in the core.
19:23It actually needs to finally touch the wall, and that's where you actually get the energy.
19:29It's touching the magnetic field around.
19:32Actually, there is a real wall.
19:34It's magnetic field all around.
19:35It's made of drywall?
19:36Like plasterboard?
19:37We call it blanket.
19:38That actually-
19:39But what forms the blanket, in all seriousness?
19:46What creates the wall?
19:47How does that work?
19:48It's a various solution for wall.
19:51It could be tungsten.
19:53But does it come as a byproduct?
19:54It's a various material, yeah.
19:56It's a byproduct of the way you're manipulating the plasma.
20:00A wall creates out of that.
20:02No.
20:03Actually, no.
20:04You actually put a physical, it's a physical wall.
20:05Oh, a physical wall.
20:06Yeah.
20:07So why is it only measured when it touches the wall?
20:10Because it's not measured.
20:11It's actually the plasma heat is being measured in the core, yes, and that's when you get
20:18really hot plasma.
20:19So what do you need the wall for?
20:21Because it has to be confined.
20:22The plasma needs to meet some boundary.
20:24Well, we thought that was the magnetic field.
20:27Right.
20:28Isn't that the magnetic field?
20:29So the magnetic field is all around the torus, all around the donuts.
20:35So the magnetic field-
20:36Oh, so the magnetic field gives it a shape.
20:39Yes, exactly.
20:40Give it a shape.
20:41So say at all, you could think that you could put direct magnets around your vessel, or
20:48you actually put coils that goes around your vessel, and then the wall, and then the plasma.
20:55Have these magnetic fields.
20:56We've all played with iron filings and magnets, and you can see magnetic field lines, and
21:02they form these loops, these toroidal loops.
21:05Okay.
21:06And I know that on the surface of the sun, because it doesn't rotate as a solid object,
21:11there are these magnetic fields in there that get stretched as the sun rotates its equator
21:17faster than other regions.
21:19And there are points where the magnetic fields snap.
21:21They break, and then they reconnect.
21:25Does that happen in your space?
21:27Yes.
21:28It happens on the surface of the sun exactly the way you said.
21:33Sun actually, as you correctly mentioned, it's in a plasma state, also create fusion
21:42energy.
21:43So a lot of energy in there.
21:45Another thing sun creates is magnetic field.
21:48All the motions of the plasma there creates magnetic field.
21:53So I'm creating magnetic fields.
21:55I need to get rid of this magnetic field somehow, these invisible field lines that I'm creating.
22:04And where does it go?
22:05It goes to the surface, and it kind of goes up like loops.
22:08And then the loops kind of, at some point, these invisible field lines, one go up, one
22:15go down, and then they snap.
22:17They kind of cancel each other.
22:19And then there's what we call a detachment.
22:22The whole loop kind of get away.
22:25And it's chaotic, right?
22:26I mean, it's sort of like a bunch of, well, it's not controlled, it's like a bunch of
22:31five-year-olds in kindergarten on Skittles.
22:33You can't control them, they're loud.
22:35On Skittles, oh, okay.
22:37Okay.
22:38But is it right?
22:39Yes or no.
22:40It could be places that is really chaotic, but also it could be likely collective ropes
22:47of magnetic field.
22:48They come together, they kind of cancel each other, magnetic field, and then you get the
22:55reconnection site, and then the whole thing like detached.
23:00The plasma and the magnetic field, yeah.
23:02This is how you know that physics do this, not astronomers, because the people who study
23:05that are called magnetohydrodynamicists.
23:07Oh, my God.
23:10That's just, that should not be a word.
23:12No.
23:13That is one long business card.
23:16A little fold-out extra section.
23:20This is your business card, it's like that.
23:23So let's get back to the energy, and then I want to go to rockets.
23:28So if you're going to be useful to anybody, you can't just make energy under the ground
23:34in Princeton, New Jersey.
23:36It's got to be, I don't want to call it portable, but it's got to be scalable, so you can move
23:40it to a town that can generate energy that has no radioactive byproducts.
23:44You can generate it 24-7, and you're just using hydrogen.
23:48Whose method will be better for this?
23:51The one, the inertial confinement from Lawrence Livermore, or the tokamak design from Princeton
23:58and other places.
23:59You have to pursue all the methods.
24:01It's actually not fair.
24:02That's a diplomatic answer.
24:03I was going to say.
24:04Oh, man.
24:05Wow.
24:06Man.
24:07I didn't know I was in Congress right now.
24:08That was what you say to members of Congress, a senator, we need to pursue all the methods.
24:13Okay.
24:14So all the methods.
24:15America is great.
24:16I like pie.
24:17And you even don't know about other methods.
24:22We call this some more innovative alternate method.
24:27But again, using magnetic field to kind of confine plasma and get fusion energy.
24:35So all of them need to prepare.
24:36But all of them need to get to some condition.
24:38And the condition is that you get more, you produce more energy than you put in.
24:45Otherwise, what's the point?
24:47What's the point?
24:48Exactly.
24:49So there's a net gain that you kind of need to get.
24:51And we haven't got there engineering wise.
24:55Physics wise, scientifically, maybe in some range, we can say that, oh, we got energy
25:00from fusion.
25:01And as I said, this happened also in the 90s, you know, at PPPF.
25:06Yeah.
25:07There was a little bit of an overstatement about the Livermore experiment because that
25:13one had net extra energy from the experiment.
25:17And so this was a, it was championed.
25:20But the extra energy they got was relative to the energy that they put in in this little
25:26spot.
25:27It didn't add up.
25:29The whole system that made the thing a thing to begin with.
25:33Right, right.
25:34So it wasn't the total energy budget of the experiment.
25:37It was just the energy budget of the vessel.
25:40Local, around the target.
25:42On the target.
25:43And it had to be attached to that target or near that target to be an energy source.
25:46Yeah, and that's how they make the measurements.
25:48So I think, correct me if I'm wrong, if you're going to scale that, presumably you get some
25:54good engineers in there to say, how do we make this littler and you can make this more
25:57efficient and that, and then you just run the energy out the other side.
26:01You actually need to also make better lasers, more efficient lasers, because the efficiency
26:06of it is not too great.
26:07Right, because you have to put energy in the lasers to make the better.
26:09Yeah, because the lasers are going to help you to get fusion.
26:12So you need engineers.
26:13Exactly.
26:14So the engineering net gain is not too high in that experiment, but the physics gain was
26:20good.
26:21And also the physics gain is also, for a magnetic confinement, we have good gain before and
26:27we are actually moving toward it with various, you know, configuration.
26:31Okay.
26:32In all of this, the idea of excited particles, where does that fit into all of this and sort
26:38of how do you calm down an excited particle, jazz music, I don't know, candles, scented
26:46candles, like how do you...
26:47You're asking her how does she cool down the plasma?
26:49Is that what you're asking?
26:50In a sense, right?
26:51Because the whole plasma is excited particles.
26:53Right.
26:54But there are specific things that you do to control the excited particles.
26:57Oh, yes, yes.
26:58I think that you just want the whole hot, you know, plasma confined, controlled in a...
27:08And self-heated, because it kind of interestingly, if it gets to some temperature, it can kind
27:13of on its own can get, you know, heated the plasma for a long, long time and produce a
27:20lot of energy.
27:21And that is fusion system or reactor.
27:26And we have made a lot of progress in each, you know, part of it.
27:30But as usual, we're not there yet.
27:33So how many years from now can I plug in my wall and the energy on the other side of that
27:40plug is fusion?
27:41So, I mean, you know that...
27:42She was going to say five years away.
27:43I told her, okay, we're listening.
27:44Go on.
27:45You know that.
27:46You didn't hear that.
27:47You didn't hear this.
27:48Go on.
27:49I mean, you know that, like, diesel engines, all lots of, you know, advancement.
27:55Excuse me, Senator.
27:56Technologica.
27:57Senator, could I have the witness answer the question, please, directly?
28:02She mentioned diesel engines.
28:03That is not on the table right now.
28:05So it all takes decades, yes?
28:07And fusion is...
28:09We are...
28:10It's a new physics frontiers, the whole plasma physics.
28:15When an experiment, you know, is run, you kind of get into the new regime.
28:20Because when you're doing actual research, you're on a frontier.
28:24Right.
28:25Yeah.
28:26You're not...
28:27Well, I was just thinking...
28:28You're stepping where no one has stepped before.
28:29Yes.
28:30So you're going to discover new things.
28:31Exactly.
28:32So you're going to discover, and you're going to discover hurdles that you could not have
28:33predicted.
28:34Seriously, right?
28:35Yes.
28:36Yes, exactly.
28:37So, in other words, so, I mean, that's the issue, right?
28:38Yes.
28:39You get into new regime.
28:40You discover new things.
28:41And the whole...
28:42In fact, actually, the whole rocket system, it was, you know, a discovery in a fusion system,
28:47you know?
28:48So let's pivot to that right now.
28:50Because it's still decades away before she's going to make my electricity.
28:53All right.
28:54I mean...
28:55Ms. Easy Bake Oven over here, cranking stuff up when she was 10, but she can't do it.
29:02But...
29:03Commercially, you know, viable.
29:04Commercial.
29:05Commercially viable.
29:06I mean, you know...
29:07But everyone knows...
29:08We make fusion in a laboratory, but commercially, yeah.
29:10Everyone knows how important that is.
29:12Yeah.
29:13Culturally.
29:14Do we have any practical application of fusion right now in any capacity that...
29:17Bombs.
29:18Other than bombs.
29:19In a shorter time scale, we do not have to have a larger scale fusion system to kind
29:29of give electricity to a whole city.
29:31We could have compact design for taking, you know, for space.
29:38Have you ever wanted one of your questions on the universe answered?
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29:45Black holes to quasars, quantum entanglement, wormholes.
29:49There is no end to the depths of cosmic curiosity.
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30:20If you weren't the director of the Hayden Planetarium, what do you think you would be
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30:24But this would have to be another universe.
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30:27I'd be a songwriter for Broadway musicals.
30:33So that's the entry level and the perks ascend from there.
30:39There's a level, in fact, where we send you an autographed copy of one of my latest books.
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31:13grand adventure of what it is to bring the universe down to Earth.
31:19As always, keep looking up.
31:21Right now and forever, as long as we've had rockets, we've been using what we call chemical
31:28fuels, which means they're molecules that have energy contained within them.
31:33And you break apart the molecule, the energy escapes, and that is our energy source.
31:39And so that has not advanced in a hundred years.
31:43Because you scientists are lazy.
31:44You're not really trying.
31:46We use different chemicals.
31:47We have solid rocket boosters.
31:49That's a different propulsion chemical than the big tank.
31:52But essentially the same concept.
31:54It's the same concept.
31:55And so tell me about plasma rockets, because there's a lot written about it.
32:01We're not even talking about fusion yet.
32:02We're just keeping in your plasma universe.
32:05Yes.
32:06Tell me.
32:07Plasma propulsion is basically we are talking about the next generation of rockets, specifically
32:15plasma rockets.
32:16And they're highly efficient?
32:17Yes.
32:18Yes, they are highly efficient.
32:19In terms of, so there are several things about them, is that the exhaust velocity is really
32:25high.
32:26What's hard for people to see, just being Earth surface dwellers.
32:31Because you say, if I want to go forward, I just have to run or step on the gas.
32:35You're doing that at the expense of Earth beneath your feet.
32:39So the only reason why you can go forward is because Earth is, you're putting friction
32:43between your foot on the Earth and you're changing the rotation of the Earth slightly.
32:47You're pushing back.
32:48You're pushing back on it.
32:49Right.
32:50You have something to push back on.
32:51Right.
32:52So this is...
32:53In space, you got nothing to push back on.
32:54So the only way you can change your speed is to give something up.
32:58And what are we giving up?
33:01Gas.
33:02Take it from there.
33:03Yes.
33:04You take it.
33:05And in this case, it's just you create the plasma or plasmoid through the process of
33:10like solar flares, magnetic reconnection.
33:14And you detach these, continuously detach these plasma from the back of the rocket and
33:20at high velocity.
33:22Because it's at high temperature.
33:23At high temperature, you get high speed.
33:25Yes.
33:26High speed.
33:28And the rocket is being propelled forward.
33:31And it's not...
33:33It doesn't have to be high temperature.
33:35The interesting about the magnetic reconnection is that magnetic energy is being converted
33:42to kinetic energy.
33:44So it's all magnetic.
33:45Yes.
33:46It's like the solar.
33:47It doesn't have to be.
33:48So this is like...
33:49Yeah.
33:50You want to get from point A to point B...
33:51Yeah.
33:52...with this.
33:53You snap your fingers, you're there.
33:54It's like badass...
33:55No, no, no, no.
33:56No.
33:57Badass Google Maps.
33:58No, no.
34:00It's different because the particle comes out the back and the rocket recoils from it.
34:09But by how much?
34:11It's efficient, but what's the mass?
34:14The mass is not too much.
34:15So there are various...
34:16It's a tiny mass at high speed.
34:18Yes.
34:19Tiny mass.
34:20And I have a high mass thing on the other side that can only then go forward at low
34:22speed.
34:23Yes, yes.
34:24Right?
34:25So how am I going to get anywhere?
34:26You get anywhere by kind of having high thrust, high force.
34:31Okay.
34:32And that is through, again, exhaust velocity.
34:35You get it.
34:36And it's constantly, you're kind of pushing it.
34:40It's like a constant acceleration you get somewhere in a space.
34:44It's different from...
34:45Yeah.
34:46Right.
34:47So you wouldn't use plasma rockets to launch.
34:50No, no, no, no.
34:51Because they don't have that much...
34:53You can't send out that much mass.
34:55Yeah.
34:57But if you send me a rocket, this is coming out.
34:58So you've got to use...
34:59This comes out and it goes the other way.
35:00You use rocket fuel to get it there.
35:01To get it there.
35:02And then through empty space.
35:03So we're talking about like some crazy...
35:07Is this sort of like a massive Wi-Fi spot that's got incredible power?
35:13Is that what this plasma thing, where we're going with it?
35:16Well, I think from what I've read...
35:18But you're in the middle of it.
35:19So just correct me if I'm wrong.
35:22and you're in free space, in open space,
35:24and then you turn on your plasma rocket,
35:28it's like one particle at a time,
35:29and so you slowly accelerate,
35:34but acceleration is a constant, in this case,
35:38increase in your velocity.
35:39There's resistance coming on the rocket.
35:42There's no resistance out there, it's a recoil, right?
35:45But since it's constant, and you do it for a long time,
35:50you can reach very high speeds.
35:51Exactly. How fast can you go?
35:53So based on the results that we have,
35:56and we are actually building this tabletop prototype
36:00at the Space Lab.
36:01No, no.
36:02Tabletop prototype.
36:04We're building it.
36:06I'm using my oven.
36:09At the lab, you're building it.
36:10You can get to 100, 500 kilometers per second.
36:14So it's still.
36:16So that rocket can move at that speed.
36:18Could you have a sunroof on the rocket at that speed,
36:22or would that be viable?
36:23A sunroof to see, just to, you know, just looking up.
36:28Well, what is up?
36:29Yeah, that's true.
36:31But you need to get to that speed, you know.
36:35If you go to the moon, you don't need that much of a speed,
36:39and you could do it with this plasmoid rocket.
36:42You can do, you know, small payloads
36:45in three weeks or something with this plasma rocket.
36:49And it's not that this is sci-fi, no.
36:52This is actually for real,
36:53because we do plasma propulsion with just electric field.
36:57Now we are doing magnetic, using electromagnetic field,
37:01using magnetic connection.
37:02Wait, but three weeks is a long time.
37:04Astronauts, Apollo, they got there in three days.
37:06But we are doing the fast, you know, it's efficient.
37:09Efficient.
37:10It's efficient.
37:10It means that you go back and forth.
37:14It's not expensive.
37:16The fuel, it's flexible.
37:20You could use really hydrogen, you know,
37:22the one that we want to use for fusion.
37:24You use really light atoms, so it's efficient.
37:27So it's fuel flexible, and it's efficient.
37:30Okay, so you would use this.
37:32This would be the.
37:33It's like a nice car, yes.
37:35This would be the delivery vessel for supplies.
37:37Exactly, yeah.
37:38Because you can just plan ahead,
37:40send it three weeks in advance,
37:42and then we get there quickly.
37:43And supplies are very heavy, right?
37:46But you'll get there.
37:47But wait, we're using this plasma technology
37:49to get the supplies there?
37:52Well, I think the point is,
37:54because you're just sending these very low mass particles,
37:56though they're traveling high speeds,
37:59the recoil is small, but real and measurable,
38:04and it accumulates.
38:05So I bet if we were to fly humans
38:10with one of these rockets,
38:11it would only make sense if we were going
38:13to like Pluto or something, or to the nearest star.
38:18Yeah, then you need, to use this plasma propulsion,
38:21you need nuclear energy, fusion,
38:24or some kind of a battery to kind of give you
38:28both force, the thrust, yet you need like the chemi.
38:33If you're approaching a planet's atmosphere,
38:35can you control, otherwise are you just driving
38:38that rocket right through the center of that?
38:40Well, that's a big problem in space travel,
38:42because if you can accelerate,
38:44and you want to land somewhere, you have to.
38:46Pull up like a rocket.
38:47Right, right, there's no, right, right.
38:49So what you have to do is like flip the ship around,
38:52and then have it send out particles the other way,
38:56so then it's a negative acceleration, a deceleration.
38:59And so that eats up some of your plan.
39:02But might we use this going to Mars, do you think?
39:05Yes, yes, because of the, again, it's because of efficiency.
39:09You know, you could use chemical rockets.
39:13In 10 years.
39:15To go there once, if you use all the resources you have,
39:20but you really need plasma propulsion
39:25for getting to the Mars, you also need the energy for that.
39:29And that's what the compact fusion, compact system come,
39:33that's why we work on that.
39:36Okay, so the plasma rocket is not the same thing
39:39as a plasma fusion rocket, because the fusion,
39:41that's just a whole other source of energy.
39:42Yeah, so the plasma rocket, the energy can come
39:45from just some solar panels.
39:48Because, for example, for the moon,
39:50we have the sun sitting there, so we can get,
39:52you know, use the solar panels to get the power.
39:58But that can't be the level of,
40:00compared to plasma fusion, getting through solar panels
40:03cannot give you the same level of energy.
40:05It's enough from the lower.
40:07I want more than enough.
40:09I want the best.
40:11I'm an American.
40:13And that's how we do this in America.
40:15But we still, we don't even have that, we are not,
40:18this is like a FedEx going to moon and coming back, yes?
40:22That's what we are talking about, very efficiently.
40:25And you don't need that much of a power to do that,
40:30like 500 kilowatt is enough, it's enough.
40:33You don't need mega, millions of.
40:35Right, so they get there faster,
40:37but the guy still leaves the package like 20 feet
40:39from your door and you have to walk out
40:41in your underwear to get it.
40:42And the porch buyers steal it, right, no.
40:44Nothing changes with you scientists,
40:46you don't really advance us.
40:47Well, you walk out in your underwear to get your packages.
40:49Okay, I will porch you next time.
40:50My neighbors requested that, yes.
40:53Right, so I just want to settle my understanding on this.
40:59When you have a plasma, you have high moving particles,
41:02you can send them out the back and you recoil.
41:04Yeah.
41:05And the acceleration is slow,
41:07but it's steady and it accumulates.
41:10Yes.
41:11Okay, so if you have solar panels,
41:15the solar panel is not itself a propulsion mechanism,
41:18but it's a source of energy.
41:19Yes.
41:20And you can channel that energy back into your plasma
41:23and keep the plasma going as long as we're close enough
41:25to the sun.
41:26Exactly.
41:27Okay, now you're really far from the sun,
41:29you still need an energy source.
41:32And what would that energy source be
41:34if you can't use solar panels anymore
41:35because the sun is too dim?
41:36Would that be the fusion?
41:38Yes, it's fusion, it has to be non-chemical.
41:43Yes, and non-chemical.
41:44So your fusion source of energy
41:47would still be heating the plasma.
41:51It's still a plasma rocket.
41:52Basically, yes, the fusion.
41:54I had not appreciated that.
41:56It's still a plasma rocket.
41:59Exactly, it's still a plasma rocket
42:01because your magnets, first of all you can use several,
42:06but you still have to power your rocket.
42:10And the source of power, it could be solar panel
42:14or it could be the, yeah, non-chemical fusion energy.
42:20This is bonding.
42:21Plus there's plenty of hydrogen gas in the universe.
42:23Yes, definitely.
42:24So you just scoop it up, put it in.
42:25So there are fill-in stations in the universe.
42:28I told you.
42:28Yeah.
42:29Yeah.
42:31When it's going through space,
42:32is the plasma sort of morphing and changing
42:36and do you have to account for that?
42:37I mean, because it can survive,
42:39my understanding is it can survive
42:41plasmids in various states, right?
42:45I would imagine you have not been able
42:47to document every state that it can survive in, right?
42:49It's an ever evolving science.
42:52So it's just that basically you need,
42:53the fuel here is like hydrogen helium.
42:57Yes, you have the fuel.
42:59You can actually use the local resources
43:03in a space for the fuel.
43:05And NASA calls it ISRU, In-Situ Resource Utilization.
43:11Ah.
43:12Which is a terrible acronym, but yeah, ISRU.
43:15That's the big thing.
43:16Yes, yes.
43:17Because then you don't have to haul everything with you.
43:18Exactly.
43:19So that you want to be, that's why we call it efficient.
43:23Basically it's fuel flexibility.
43:25It's self-contained.
43:26That you can kind of, yeah.
43:26And it doesn't have to be helium.
43:29It could be hydrogen, any kind.
43:31And it doesn't have to be argon
43:33because some of the electric propulsion,
43:35your gas needs to be heavy.
43:36Argon, don't even get me started with argon.
43:38That's a ridiculous waste of time.
43:41But why argon?
43:42Why not krypton or?
43:43All of them.
43:44It could be any kind of gas that you can.
43:46I told you she's a superhero.
43:46I was gonna say.
43:47She's gonna use krypton.
43:48I was gonna say.
43:49I told you.
43:50I got her to admit it.
43:51I do feel like I've lost, I'm weak around here.
43:52I feel.
43:54So there's,
43:57it can't exist on its own.
43:59It needs some other source of energy.
44:01But what can't exist?
44:02The plasma.
44:03The plasma, then you kind of,
44:05you draw some, you create it, you ionize it.
44:10You create the plasma, yes?
44:11So that's the specific.
44:13You have to read the paper and the patent
44:15to actually see.
44:16You see how the plasma is created from this fuel,
44:21local fuel.
44:22And then you get the plasma.
44:24But as soon as you create the plasma,
44:26you get rid of it from the back of your rocket
44:29by the process of magnetic reconnection.
44:31And you've gotta lose some of your mass.
44:34Right.
44:34Every time you go, it's gonna go anywhere.
44:36But that's what I was saying earlier.
44:37Magnetic reconnection is,
44:40plasmoids get created, they're not very unstable,
44:44but then become over time unstable and decay.
44:46Magnetic reconnection sort of does this constant
44:50instability in how you control that.
44:52And are you still working on being able to control that?
44:55So for rockets, for plasma propulsion,
44:58we are not confining anything.
45:01So we don't, basically we don't care about stability
45:04because in a fusion device, you confine plasma,
45:08you don't want it to go unstable.
45:10For a rocket, you just make the plasma,
45:13you use the magnetic field.
45:14And then you just pollute space.
45:16Yes, I get it.
45:17Exactly, exactly, exactly.
45:19You get rid of it.
45:20And then you make new plasma and get rid of it.
45:22And then the rocket just gradually goes
45:25in the direction you want it to go.
45:25And that's why you need 1-800-GUT-JUNK for space
45:28because you're just putting garbage into space.
45:30That attitude, I understand.
45:32But the plasma is not really junk because as I said,
45:3699% of our observable universe is plasma.
45:40It's basically some charged particles you have in a space
45:43that you always have low-density plasma
45:46everywhere in a space.
45:47She was good, she said the observable universe.
45:49Because we don't see the dark matter.
45:51Yeah.
45:52But it's not plasma.
45:53Yeah.
45:54So she got that.
45:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:55Yes, yeah.
45:56So you could say that is, yeah.
45:57Why aren't you altering with this plasma
46:00coming out of the back of a rocket,
46:02aren't you altering space in a way
46:06by putting these particles into space?
46:09If space is 99% plasma to begin with,
46:13it's just.
46:14It doesn't care.
46:15It's like putting more water in a pool.
46:16Yeah, it doesn't care.
46:17It's like putting more hair gel in my hair.
46:18It's a state of matter.
46:21Yeah, we are floating in plasma in the universe anyway.
46:25So you kind of make some little plasma
46:27and get rid of it.
46:28Yeah, yeah.
46:29Go somewhere.
46:30Universal mind.
46:30Yeah, universal mind, yes.
46:32So Fatima, I gotta land this plane.
46:34Yes.
46:35So, I want straight answers.
46:37You're in Congress now.
46:38Professor Ebrahimi, how soon are we
46:41from having plasma energy generating centers in every city?
46:47We are close, actually.
46:48It's a.
46:49Can you give us a number?
46:51Five years?
46:52I would say five to 10 years.
46:53Okay, January 23rd, 2030.
46:57You're gonna be right there.
46:59We got a number?
47:02So in terms of that, but that is.
47:04We'll drag you back in here.
47:05Yes, but that's a scientific net gain, I said.
47:08Okay.
47:09If you want to put it on the.
47:11Engineers are good.
47:12Electricity.
47:13I'm not worried about the engineers.
47:14They come through when you need them.
47:16Okay, that's first.
47:16Second, when will we have rockets with humans in them
47:21that will use plasma propulsion,
47:25and will the first trip to Mars use it?
47:27The first trip, I don't know,
47:29because it's possible that if you put,
47:32if all the resources are put there,
47:34you could get there once with chemical propulsion,
47:38but again, to have a sustainable kind of travel,
47:44so you need plasma propulsion.
47:49Does NASA have a group working on plasma propulsion,
47:51or do they call you up to get there?
47:54What do we do next, Fatima?
47:56Yes, give me more funding.
47:57There you go, I knew she'd be begging for money
48:02at some point, but can a human travel that fast under,
48:06isn't that an issue, plasma propulsion?
48:10I mean, is.
48:11It's a slower acceleration.
48:12It's a slower acceleration.
48:14Your face is not gonna do this.
48:14It's not, no, no, no, no, no.
48:16I'm not like, you know.
48:17I wish you, I just wanted to get some of the lines
48:21out of my face.
48:22It seems like a really fun way to get some plastic surgery.
48:27Could I say that actually, maybe we look at more closer,
48:33you know, places to go, and I think Moon could be,
48:36as I said, it could be just plasma propulsion,
48:39you don't need fusion.
48:40What are we gonna do with the Moon?
48:41We've been to the Moon.
48:42Resources, resources, there's all sorts of.
48:44I got Moon rocks in my top drawer of my drawer,
48:46everybody.
48:47No, you don't.
48:48Actually, one of the way to actually create fusion energy,
48:52it's something, it's called aneutronic,
48:54means that you kind of, the other,
48:58you use deuterium, helium, you know,
49:03to create energy, and you don't produce neutrons, so.
49:07That's just the PP chain in the center of the Sun.
49:10There's no loose neutrons coming out of that.
49:12Yes, exactly, so it's aneutronic.
49:13Right, because neutrons are bad,
49:14because they come out and they'll, nothing stops them.
49:17Yes, yes.
49:18They don't have a charge.
49:19They're very pushy.
49:20Their advantage is, they don't have to push.
49:23The other particles don't even know they're there.
49:26Am I right?
49:28Yes, yes, yes.
49:28With neutrons?
49:29It's like dark matter.
49:30Neutrons, yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:31So that's a fun reaction in the Sun,
49:34called the PP chain, proton-proton chain.
49:38Exactly.
49:38Deuterium, and tritium.
49:40No, I don't remember tritium,
49:41but we have helium-3.
49:43Exactly, exactly, exactly, helium-3, deuterium.
49:47So you have also fuel for also fusion.
49:49So there are things there,
49:51and you want to make some steps for the next generation,
49:57you know, non-chemical propulsion.
50:00You first make some good step progress,
50:03and then gradually, going further,
50:06you use fusion energy to go there, yeah.
50:09So in this process, you guys seem fairly lazy.
50:11You're taking your time, five years.
50:13Are you using, in all seriousness,
50:16are you using, how does AI factor into any of your work,
50:19or will it, in terms of the advancements
50:22you're trying to make?
50:24It's a fantastic question.
50:25It's there.
50:26Can you just say that again?
50:28Fantastic question.
50:29I didn't hear it, I didn't hear her say that.
50:32Actually, she is AI, right here.
50:37She doesn't really exist.
50:38Did you think she was real?
50:41My finger goes right through her leg.
50:45It's so weird.
50:46You're making a sound.
50:47Yeah, exactly.
50:48I didn't want to say anything.
50:50I think she's been around the plasma too much.
50:55She is plasma.
50:56I'm sitting next to a plasma, don't tell her.
50:58Yeah, yes, I think, yes, definitely.
51:01You know, computers, first of all,
51:04most of the progress we made in plasma physics
51:07and fusion have always been, you know, together.
51:11Experiments and advanced computation work together
51:15to make discoveries and also any kind of achievement,
51:20it has to be together.
51:21Well, I think we kind of need to wrap this up.
51:23Yes, we do.
51:24Yes, we do.
51:25Unfortunately.
51:26Well, Fatima, give me some words for the future.
51:29Be patient in terms of.
51:31Okay, we're fine.
51:34Okay, I'm sorry I asked.
51:37It's not, the answer's like this.
51:39Well, how do you define future?
51:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:41So let me say, for the future is that progress
51:45and discovery doesn't happen overnight.
51:49It's the continuous work of scientists,
51:54long-term investments to kind of,
51:57you put all the energy you have, collaboration,
52:01all of that and cross-pollination of various types
52:07of, you know, group working on various types of plasma
52:10or types of devices, fusion experiments.
52:14Progress happen like that, it's not.
52:16So it's just, it's also new physics.
52:20We learn every day in every regime of plasmas,
52:22we learn new things and we apply it
52:25like this, you know, rocket thruster.
52:28We apply it for other applications.
52:30What we learn in fusion, we also apply it
52:33for other applications.
52:36And so, it's just a continuous.
52:40It's an ongoing process.
52:41It's a continuous work.
52:42So Fatima, typically at the end of our sessions,
52:47I offer the viewer a cosmic perspective
52:49on the topic of the day, but you so beautifully summarized
52:54the plight of the scientists, the engineer,
52:56society, funding sources.
52:58That's any and all that I would have said
53:02in my cosmic perspective.
53:04So thanks for making my job just a little easier today.
53:06Good to have you, Mia.
53:09Always great to be here.
53:10All right, Fatima, good luck.
53:12You need some of that sometimes, right?
53:13Yes, yes, yes.
53:14When you're messing with plasma.
53:15Exactly.
53:16And one day you'll give us a tour of your basement.
53:18Exactly, exactly.
53:19And listen, whatever you do.
53:20I'm welcome, both of you.
53:22You keep up your vague answers.
53:23No, it was really interesting.
53:27Very fascinating.
53:27Thank you, thank you.
53:28This has been Star Talk.
53:30Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist,
53:33reporting from my office, the Hayden Planetarium,
53:37the American Museum of Natural History in New York City.
53:41As always, keep looking up.
53:43♪♪♪
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