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00:00Hey, what's up guys, MKBHD here. So, in case you somehow missed it, Apple's WWDC was
00:08this week and the stuff they announced there has been making tech headlines pretty much
00:13every day since. So typically, when Apple gets up on stage, they share something that
00:18they've been working on behind the scenes for a long time and they're finally able to
00:22share it with the world. They get on stage and they share it and then there's this sort
00:26of reaction from the internet, everyone's blogging, tweeting, making their videos about
00:30it, and then Apple's usually just like zip, nothing. They never really reply. That's typically
00:38where the conversation ends. But not this year, 2020 in many ways is a little different.
00:43So after the keynote this year, after their online-only presentation, I got to have a
00:47conversation with the man you may recognize from tons of FaceTime in the keynote, singer
00:52VP at Apple, Craig Federighi. We had a decently long chat on the Waveform podcast with a
00:57whole range of topics from the behind the scenes of how they made that two-hour keynote
01:02movie basically, to all the software and the new stuff that they've announced. And it's
01:08not all roses and flowers. Some of the stuff they announced was pretty controversial too.
01:12So luckily enough, I was recording video on my end. Craig had some iPhones set up recording
01:17his end in Apple Park. So if you want more of the summary of the really long list of
01:21things that they've announced that are new, you can go back and watch my last two videos
01:26that go into that stuff in lots of detail. But this, this is the more rare conversation
01:32part. All right. So point number one, default apps. So you may remember one of the new announcements
01:37in iOS 14 was the ability to newly change your default mail or browser apps. And the
01:43reaction to that was at first, largely very positive, including for me. That's like from
01:48a very traditionally stubborn company from like Apple, not something you would expect.
01:53But then after like a day or two of digestion, the questions start coming up. Well, what
01:58about maps? Why not other things too? Here's what he had to say.
02:03I did hear that you were looking forward to using alternatives. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there
02:08you go. It's something for everybody.
02:10I love that extra layer. I think my natural question to that is, okay, it's only mail
02:14and browser. Is there a reason you didn't have full on, you know, chaos or, or even
02:20just maps? Because I think maps would have been nice to also be able to set as a default.
02:25You know, honestly, a great point. I mean, I think for us, we looked at what were the
02:29top things that we'd been hearing people say they wanted to configure. And there's definitely
02:35those two that rose to the top. So I'll certainly take the input about maps as well. It was,
02:41this was just where we started. I think your point on chaos is an important one. I mean,
02:47obviously, with iOS, we're very careful about trying to keep, we know how platforms can
02:55sort of descend into chaos. And particularly when apps that, you know, might honestly not
03:01even be browsers, you know, decide they're gonna be a browser and then, you know, try
03:07to hook into being your browser, because maybe they could redirect you to a different
03:13tracked ad experience when you click on something or bounce you into, you know, who knows what.
03:17And so we are very careful about making sure that that experience that we don't have people
03:23getting misled or have their device gets configured into a place where, boy, they just don't even
03:30like like using their their their phone anymore, because it's gotten so wonked up. So we proceed
03:36cautiously on these things for sure. Does that mean there will be? I assume? Well,
03:41I maybe shouldn't assume that not every app can add that flag to potentially be a default browser,
03:46but only certain approved ones? Yeah, you're exactly right. So we will have criteria for
03:53the you have to be a general purpose browser. And there'll be I mean, the ones you would think of
03:58as using as your browser will, of course, all qualify. But we don't want a random game to just
04:04claim like, yeah, I'm a browser, you know, I'm willing to throw up a webkit view now and then
04:08in the middle of my game experience, I'm gonna be your browser. Because we think that could could
04:13readily be abused. So we want real general purpose mail apps and real general purpose browsers to be
04:19able to present themselves to the user with this functionality and keep out all the rest of the
04:24confusion. Gotcha. So the browser point, I think is actually a really good one. Something to sort of
04:30think about a little bit if any app can just become your browser when any link comes up. And then
04:35that app has different policies on tracking and privacy, then it sort of goes against your own
04:41policies on tracking and privacy. Now we see this on Android all the time. And it's actually more of
04:45a feels like a convenience and more customization feature. But in relay for Reddit, for example, if I
04:51click a link to read a story, it doesn't have to open Chrome, there's a browser built into the app
04:55here. So it just opens that. And that's convenient. But Craig's response here is basically that
05:00sometimes Apple has to take a stance against some of that convenience in favor of maintaining their
05:05own pretty strict privacy policy. Makes sense. Then next up was Siri. So Siri got a bunch of
05:13improvements in iOS 14 as well answers a bunch of new questions now. And it also is in this compact
05:18new UI with a much smaller animation, I pointed out in my videos, and a lot of people also reacted
05:24that you couldn't really interact with things behind Siri. Despite that smaller animation, Siri also
05:30gets a new compact UI both on the phone. Yeah. And on the iPad. But something we've noticed since
05:36using it is it is a compact UI, but you can't interact with things underneath or behind it. Is
05:42that intentional? Is that a limitation? What's what's that story?
05:46No, no. And in fact, you know, we tried it both ways. We had internally we had prototypes running
05:52where you would scroll behind the Siri answers as you brought them up. And initially, we thought that
05:59was going to be really great. And so we implemented it that way. And then what we found was that for
06:05most of the interactions we were having with Siri, that that then created this kind of extra
06:10heaviness to it. Because if you just said wanted to check the weather or look up a piece of
06:15information, and then you were ready to move on, your scroll gesture wasn't going to move on, the
06:21Siri result was going to stick around there. So you always had this additional step of dismissing the
06:27result. And we found that to be extra heavy. And so, you know, we'll continue to listen to what people
06:34have to say through the beta period, because like I say, I mean, we've we actually have it working both
06:37ways. But but our feeling was that we wanted to achieve a great lightness, not just visually, but in
06:44terms of you could dip into Siri, get an answer and move on quickly without any kind of overhead in
06:50the subsequent interaction. So there's there's definitely a real balance there.
06:53Yeah, I found that the experience was a little different on the phone versus the tablet, you know, on
06:57the phone, it felt like it made sense. I'm not necessarily reading or scrolling or doing things
07:02behind Siri very often. But the tablet with a bigger screen, to me felt like an opportunity to give me a
07:07little more of like the the multitasking feel that I talked about on iPad. Yeah, where you do feel like
07:12you have a little more control over leaving Siri there while you do other things and coming back to
07:17it. So that might be something to look into.
07:19Yeah, did you have a thought about what you how you would have expected if you were to let's say,
07:24start, you know, you got your answer, and then you started scrolling and doing other things on your
07:28iPad? Yeah, at what point, you would expect Siri to kind of get itself out of the way or whether you
07:33would have preferred to, you know, have it hang out for minutes, and then you go over there and
07:38manually put it away?
07:39Yeah, so I think because that animation came in from the bottom, and then the answer came in from
07:44the top, I almost felt like it would be different behavior on the phone. But I almost felt like just
07:48being able to swipe it out of the top where it came from to dismiss it, sort of like a
07:52notification, even though it isn't one, or bringing that Siri animation from the bottom corner and
07:58just swiping it down out of where it appeared. So that's, again, there's probably 1000 ways to also
08:04consider doing it. But I think that just because I'm such an iPad multitasking advocate, I think
08:09that would be something I'd be interested in.
08:11All right, so there you go. Makes sense to me. The one extra step of dismissing Siri is one extra
08:18step they feel like they wanted to avoid. But also, again, I think it's important to mention that
08:22these are the videos I was making were about developer betas, and these are early software that
08:28can continue to be changed down the road. He mentions they could change it. So if you do see
08:32that behavior change, maybe they've thought about it more. All right, so then the big one, macOS Big
08:38Sur, new visuals, new rounded corners, new icons, I had to talk about seeing all those visual
08:45changes. It got a very mixed reaction online, and I'll share some of mine after. But yeah, there's a
08:49there's a sort of an overarching theme of these rounded corners and a new transparency and a
08:54different sort of look to it. Can you talk about that theme of macOS Big Sur?
08:58Yeah, well, I think the the first thing just to address the 11.0, I mean, we do feel that between
09:06the the new design, and the the beginning of a new chapter with the introduction of Apple
09:14Silicon, I mean, I think this is this is just the beginning. I mean, this is a this is a real
09:19renewal of the platform in many ways. And so we're really excited to mark this with the next
09:26chapter, the turning to the next chapter with with with 11. As far as the design goes, you know, I
09:32think it's a huge part of our visual scenery of our lives at this point. And so what seems right is
09:39partly what we're used to seeing on that screen every day. And when it changes, immediately,
09:43there's all kinds of little pattern recognizers in our brain that go like, hold on, something's
09:47different something. I feel like after you use the UI for and I've been living on it for months.
09:54It feels natural, it feels fresh, and yet, clearly distinctly Mac. And I love it. And I think that it's
10:04natural the first time you you see it. And of course, the internet reacts on like they see a
10:09single screenshot, and then let's start a tweet storm. And then let's pile on. They don't they
10:14don't necessarily live on it. Right. And so I will love to hear the feedback of people as they've
10:19they've really made it their system like they have the previous Mac UI for, you know, for weeks and
10:25come back and say, how do you feel about it now? I think the design team did amazing work. And I find
10:32you know, things like rounding, you know, some of those choices may seem arbitrary. But in fact, it's
10:36extremely consistent throughout that whole experience. And I think it's really organic, you
10:40know, straight edges like this or like the process of human manufacturing processes, you know, if you
10:45look out in nature, if you look at our own faces, it's a lot of curves, right and natural curves.
10:51And so I think there's something really beautiful and organic about the the look of the UI. And I
10:59think the the use of the use of materials is really great. The clarity of some of the unified
11:06toolbars, I think is just clean and fresh and really deferential to content. And then of course, I
11:12mean, it's a big step to change the icons of the Mac, that's certainly a signature change. But what
11:18we found when we live on it, is we're all moving back and forth between our iPhone, our iPad, our
11:25Mac, and having that consistency and familiarity just takes a level of sort of mental mapping
11:32energy out of the whole thing. And it's just it's relaxing, it's comfortable, it's it's clear. And so
11:39you know, we approach that decision with a lot of a lot of debate. But in the end, we we tried it and it
11:45just it just felt right. And I think as people use it, they're going to come to the same conclusion.
11:49Yeah, those new icons are not from iPad or iPhone, right? They're new, they're totally new icon set as
11:55far as like Finder and, and Spotify and Final Cut, like all these new apps on the Mac.
12:01Well, we did not create a Spotify icon, we would not make we would not make that step. I mean, it
12:06might be fun to try, but I don't think we're allowed to do that. Right. We did, you're right. So
12:12there's some Mac, some icons like like Finder exactly where there's no analog. And so we got to
12:19imagine with the new shape and aesthetic, how should should the Mac look and I think I love what we
12:23came up with there. Then there are other icons, like say Safari or messages, where we took the iOS
12:34icon and the typical, you know, chiclet shape, but applied a little bit of the traditional Mac craft
12:41to to it. And I think that's been where there's some of the controversy right now where people are
12:46saying, Hold on, I know what that iPhone icon looks like. And this one seems just a little
12:50different. Something's tripping here and going like this isn't quite right. And you know, that's
12:55that's natural and understandable. But we did want to pay homage to that history of great craft and
13:03detailing that's been part of the Mac, the history of Mac icons. And so we kind of brought those those
13:10two together and hopefully in the end successfully.
13:13I think this is all a very eloquent way of saying, you'll get used to it. And I think that's that's
13:19kind of he's got a good point, you probably will eventually get used to it after a while. But the
13:25other thing is design is subjective. And sometimes there are designs that even if you do get used to
13:30them, you still don't like them. Like for me, an example is on my phone, I use Waze for navigation, I
13:36don't use Apple Maps or Google Maps that much anymore. And that's because I like the feature set.
13:41But every time I open Waze, I hate looking at it. It's just it's ugly. It doesn't look good. It's not
13:48clean or elegant or flat or minimal or modern or anything. Every time I open it, I hate it. But I
13:53don't switch because it still has the feature set I like. And I feel like Apple knows that and they
13:59also know people aren't going to switch off from Mac OS because they didn't really like the new icons.
14:04People complain about iPhones all the time. And then what do they go out and buy the next iPhone? So
14:09he's got a point, we'll get used to it. But also Craig or anyone else at Apple who may stumble upon
14:15this video, I talked about the other icons and how I might not like them. And that's preference. But
14:19this battery icon in system preferences, I you got to fix this one. I'm sorry, there's just there's no
14:27way this should make it out of the beta. Please change this battery icon. All right, I got I got a
14:32couple fan questions as well. I asked, I put it out on YouTube. We had some some questions and we're
14:36gonna have Craig on the podcast. First one, the iPad still does not have a default weather and
14:44calculator app and they want to know why.
14:46You know, there's some things that we, we have not done because we to do it, we would want to do
14:53something really distinctly great in that space. And I think it's obviously easy to create a calculator
15:01app. But creating one that feels like wow, this is this is this is the greatest iPad calculator app
15:07that it felt like I think we, we want to do it when we can do it really, really well. And I think
15:13we want to do it when we can do it really, really well. And we we honestly have just haven't gotten
15:20around to doing it great. So that day that day may come but and you know, weather be easy enough to
15:26scale up our additional our existing weather app. But we feel like what would a great weather app
15:31for iPad be like, let's let's do that before we do it. And otherwise, they're great options on the
15:36App Store. I mean, there, there are thousands of options on the App Store. In fact, so
15:40very true. I think this one that resonates to me because one of my favorite apps you guys just
15:45acquired dark sky. So it's no longer on Android. So I'm like, this this iOS weather app better turn
15:51into this amazing thing. So I'm, I think I think it may be time for an iPad weather app. That's just
15:56me. I'm just saying.
15:57All right. Well, and it could be could be time for you to go iPhone exclusive. I think that that
16:02would be another another another good move.
16:04That's a big point of leverage. You make a great point.
16:08Another question is, there's a there's a very small group of people out there apparently that have an
16:14iPad and want to use an Apple Watch but don't have an iPhone. Is this a workflow you guys think about
16:21or other groups of people who maybe that's too small of a group of people to cater to but will
16:27there ever be an iPad Apple Watch experience?
16:31We don't know. I mean, I get it. I think I think there's an interesting place where Apple Watch
16:36can for many people take that kind of the device that I need to have with with with that having LTE
16:42it can be that device that gives you the degree of connectiveness connectedness on the go and then
16:47you've got your your iPad when you want to get deeper. And it's a sensible it's a sensible point.
16:55It is not one that we have pursued yet. I mean, I wouldn't rule it out. But so I get it. I love
17:03using my iPad and I love using my Apple Watch. So I could I could understand that.
17:06So you have it some interesting stuff, some some new information and some clarifications on stuff
17:12that's already been announced. Good conversation material. And again, it's a much longer, fuller,
17:16more detailed conversation over on the waveform podcast. So in case you want more quarantine
17:20content, or if you haven't listened to my podcast yet, feel free to hit the link below the like
17:25button to check it out. We've got other guests on previous episodes too, but you can subscribe and
17:30listen to it anywhere podcasts are. But let me know what you think in the comments section below
17:33and we can continue the conversation 2020 style. Thanks for watching. Catch you guys in the next
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