Using Creative Media to Spread Allah's Message _ World Quran Convention _ Nouman Ali Khan
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00:00I wanted to meet filmmakers and producers that, you know, they have advisors on their panel
00:06before the script writers put a script together.
00:08I wanted to be a secret advisor that gives Qur'an input into TV shows
00:12that secretly inserts Qur'anic messaging in a show about a hospital or a show about whatever, right?
00:18So even if my name isn't out there, but the Qur'an messaging is sneaking its way in somehow.
00:30I know as you guys are settling back down, I'm responsible for creating that chaos, but that's okay.
00:51I enjoy chaos.
00:53This session is going to be, I'm actually really looking forward to this session.
00:58I'm the moderator for this session, and I will be warning my esteemed panelists
01:03that I'm going to be very annoying and interrupt you and ask you all kinds of questions,
01:06just so you're mentally prepared not to give a speech.
01:09I will not allow myself or you to give a speech.
01:11We're going to have a conversation, inshallah.
01:14I also, personally, because I've been on many panels before,
01:18and the moderator gives these introductions to each of the panelists, I'm terrible at that.
01:25Also, in the spirit of the same hadith, I would not want to subject you to that kind of torture
01:30that I have been a part of many years of my life.
01:33One of my favorite memories was when somebody said,
01:35and now I'd like to introduce my dear Mufti Menk.
01:40And I've also been introduced as Brother Luqman before.
01:47Brother Luqman Ali Khan, I didn't know.
01:50The guy, he was nervous, so he said, Brother Luqman Ali Khan will be talking about Surah Nu'man.
02:00So what I'd first like to do to kick things off is to have each of our esteemed panelists,
02:05just 30 seconds, say something about yourselves, not your official bio,
02:10just something about yourselves, inshallah, that I think will get us started.
02:15As-salamu alaykum. Good morning, good afternoon.
02:20My name is Fahmi Fadhil. I'm 42 years old.
02:25I love it.
02:28I run a ministry of communications and digital.
02:33I'm 42, I run a ministry. Okay, yeah.
02:38As-salamu alaykum. I'm from Turkey.
02:42My name is Ibrahim. I'm 42 years old.
02:47I have an experience more than 20 years in media,
02:51and my ambition always was creating content like the dramas.
02:58I have created too many dramas, documentaries, cartoons, animations throughout my career,
03:03and I'm trying to expand my career in this area.
03:09And inshallah, I am very excited to be a part of this convention,
03:13from the idea that Surah Nu'man, a loved one of me.
03:17Yeah, thanks.
03:20Okay, bismillahirrahmanirrahim. As-salamu alaykum.
03:23My name is Ken Ismail. Obviously, I'm from Malaysia.
03:27Basically, you introduced us as Dodo Place,
03:30but I would like to share we are also the founders of Omar and Hana.
03:34Right, the cartoon. Alhamdulillah.
03:40Jazakallah khair. Credit goes to the team.
03:43An amazing team, alhamdulillah.
03:46Just to share, some people don't know.
03:48No, no, no. I didn't say you could discuss...
03:52I didn't say you could discuss your favorite episode of Omar and Hana right now.
03:55That time is over. Let the man speak. Okay, go ahead.
04:00Just to share, it has created a huge impact for Muslims globally.
04:04More than 5 billion views on YouTube, alhamdulillah.
04:08But we see a need for our own platform,
04:11and that's why we did Dodo Place.
04:13It's kind of like your Netflix for our Muslim kids, inshallah.
04:16Inshallah. Excellent.
04:18As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
04:20I've moved from here to here. That's the first thing to notice.
04:24Secondly, my name is Sherif Hassan al-Banna. I'm from London.
04:27I'm here in a different hat on the media panel.
04:30I accidentally became a media entrepreneur.
04:34I don't know how many of you have heard of a company called Awakening Media.
04:43I'm the founder and CEO of Awakening,
04:45and many of our projects have been received very well in Malaysia.
04:49Media projects like Sami Yusuf, Maher Zain, and others.
04:53So it's a pleasure and honor to be with you all here.
04:55Alhamdulillah.
04:56So now that I've introduced, or they've introduced themselves,
04:59I guess I'll introduce myself.
05:01My name is Norman. I don't have a real job,
05:03and they told me that Hassan is fired, so I took his place.
05:08But this conversation, I want it to be as productive and as insightful as it can be.
05:13I'm going to get right into the questions that I had pre-prepared,
05:17and I made our panelists aware of, so they'll share some of their thoughts.
05:20So let's begin.
05:21What do you believe are the primary challenges
05:23in presenting Islam-inspired messaging through creative media?
05:28Anybody.
05:32Not all at once.
05:35I'll go first.
05:36Yeah, go ahead.
05:37I think the first thing is they own it.
05:40I'm talking more on a kid's perspective, but at the bigger picture.
05:45We don't own most of them.
05:47I can say a few.
05:51But for kids, name one media company which we own as Muslim.
05:59Like the equivalent of a PBS Kids or something like that?
06:02Equivalent to the Disney, the Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network.
06:07We don't own any of them.
06:09And there are basically 400 million Muslim children in the world
06:13who are consuming content from them.
06:15It's their story.
06:16It's still okay, but their narratives.
06:19It doesn't sit well with us.
06:22I think that's basically...
06:24Can't blame them in terms of their narrative, right?
06:27Because they own it.
06:28So do you think the reason for that is because I know
06:31Muslim entrepreneurs all over the world.
06:34Is this just an area where Muslims haven't realized
06:37this is not just an area of public responsibility,
06:40but a really powerful area of investment?
06:43Yep, I believe so.
06:45I think the challenge is a lot of us, kids as kids.
06:50But I guess they saw it earlier than us.
06:53They saw it as a market share.
06:55As a market share and implementing their ideas and agendas.
06:59That's right.
07:00I think we have to take control of that.
07:02That's very true.
07:03And from that, what it gets me thinking about is the fact
07:07that we often think of Islamic objectives.
07:12Well, we think of them outside the world of business.
07:15So there's our business objectives,
07:17and then there are the Islamic objectives.
07:19But the fact of the matter is many of our objectives
07:23can have a business outlook.
07:25And in fact, they should have a business outlook
07:27because my personal take on this is that
07:30when you do have a business outlook,
07:32you're constantly looking to improve your product,
07:35enhance your product, to understand your consumer,
07:38to look at the trends, to look at what works,
07:40to look at what doesn't work.
07:42But if you're only driven by a principle
07:44and you don't take any of that into consideration,
07:47then you cannot see a growth in quality.
07:50There's a stagnation, and there's no creativity
07:52and new ideas being tried.
07:54And that just kind of comes from the entrepreneurial side of this.
07:57So I do think this is a really powerful insight
08:00that you bring to this conversation.
08:01There isn't investment in this space,
08:04at least in creative media,
08:06children's entertainment media, for example.
08:08There isn't really any serious investment
08:10being made in that space, you're right.
08:13I would like to give a concrete example.
08:15Yeah.
08:16Before the example, let me explain
08:19what I think about the primary challenges.
08:21I think there are two ways.
08:23One from the audience perspective.
08:25The audience perspective is that
08:28we have a culture of consuming the media
08:30and we understand the media as entertaining,
08:33which we don't think that it's as entertaining as Islamic.
08:38As you say, we separate it from our daily lives.
08:41It's an entertaining media, we consume it.
08:45And it's an audience perspective,
08:47that's the culture we consume the media.
08:49The other point is, from the producer point of view,
08:53which is like two aspects.
08:55One is the level of creativity
08:57and the quality of production,
08:59which as the Muslim community,
09:02we have a way to go.
09:05That's for sure.
09:07Our quality of production is low.
09:10Yes.
09:11And the second thing is the shallowness,
09:13as you say, of the market.
09:15There is no sustainable market.
09:17And I used to be the Director General and Chairman of TRT.
09:21And when I joined, TRT is the Turkish public broadcaster
09:25with 14 TV channels, 6 radio stations.
09:30And we created too many content,
09:32including TRT for TV channel and also other dramas.
09:36And when I joined TRT in 2013,
09:39I decided to create a drama.
09:42But the drama was about Ottoman history.
09:46And no one believed in TRT
09:49that it was going to get a rating from the audience.
09:53Right.
09:54Because people believed that if it was about good deeds,
09:58only certain people will watch it.
10:00Right.
10:01So it's not going to market for it.
10:03So no one believed for it.
10:05And then I asked for someone who I knew before,
10:08he was a student at that time,
10:10to write a script about it.
10:12And then we asked him to find a producer.
10:17But it's a long story.
10:19And then we created that series.
10:22Maybe you have heard of this,
10:24the Restoration Ertuğrul.
10:26Ertuğrul?
10:27Yeah.
10:28Ertuğrul.
10:30Yeah.
10:31So that was what was produced.
10:33Yeah, okay.
10:34No one believed that it's going to be successful.
10:38Because it had never been done before.
10:40Never done before.
10:41And if it is good deeds,
10:42only certain people will watch it.
10:44Right.
10:45Because there's almost a supposition
10:47that Islamic will probably be boring.
10:49Yes.
10:50Yeah.
10:52Yeah.
10:53Other thoughts?
10:54I have some thoughts on this too,
10:55that I want to hear from the two of you.
10:57Yeah.
10:58I mean, I'd like to add to that.
10:59I think,
11:00I share with both Sinan and Ibrahim,
11:03but I think personally in our own journey,
11:07I think there's a lot more focus required on the content,
11:11not just the platform.
11:13I think we need more reimagination,
11:15need more reframing of content,
11:19and we definitely need to be a lot more innovative.
11:22The issue of reimagination,
11:24somehow when it comes to Islam, Islamic,
11:27and I know we might discuss this later on,
11:29but the aspect of theology, fiqh, sharia,
11:31somehow limits, I believe, our creative horizons.
11:35And to link it to Surah Al-Insan,
11:39the first verse starts off with essentially evoking our imagination.
11:45The idea is, can you think of a time?
11:47It's already getting us to think and reimagine.
11:50Right.
11:51The idea of repositioning content,
11:55sometimes, and I say this, let's say,
11:58from the music label perspective,
12:00a song or a music or a lyric isn't a mutbah or a book
12:04to be translated into a music video.
12:08I mean, this is sometimes how Islamic content is perceived.
12:11Yeah.
12:12With a focus, yes, it's on the message and the content,
12:16but it also should be on the way we are framing this content,
12:20the way we are approaching it.
12:22And the third is pushing the limits, pushing the bar.
12:25Although theologically we have a phobia with the word bid'ah, innovation,
12:30and we shouldn't engage in innovation,
12:33creatively, there is no creativity without innovation.
12:37So I think to reclaim the Quranic paradigm of innovation,
12:41being an innovator is actually resembling or mirroring
12:46the sifat of Allah, of bid'ah, of bringing things into existence.
12:51Interesting. I heard somebody…
12:52Things that didn't come into.
12:54So this notion of, I think our emphasis, again,
12:57because of certain hurdles of why somehow when it comes to Islamic content creation
13:03or value-driven content creation,
13:05there seems to be a mental block around this content,
13:08and a lot of it is also around these ideas,
13:10around imagination, creativity, and…
13:13I don't believe that there's a problem in creation,
13:16but the problem is there's not enough economic space for entrepreneurs
13:21to come into the space.
13:24Don't you think that's been interrupted now?
13:26TikTokers are making millions of dollars now.
13:29They can create creative content sitting with a webcam
13:33and garner enormous amounts of revenue and attention,
13:37and then they're getting studio deals.
13:40There are, for example, comedians that start their career on social media,
13:44and then they get contracts from major producers
13:48after they've already reached the following of the million.
13:51So there is some disruption happening in this space too
13:54that I think we need to acknowledge.
13:56But on your note, do you have any thoughts on this, Professor Irman?
13:59Yeah, just a quick one.
14:01I think there's a question of content, there's a question of platform,
14:04there's a question of markets and audiences.
14:07There's also a question of, I think, how the content gets produced.
14:13I think the challenge for an entity like, say, Durio Plus,
14:18like they came to see me and then asking for some help.
14:23I think in the Malaysian context, for example,
14:26sometimes the limitation is not in the imagination
14:31that goes into creating the content,
14:34but it's where the content can go.
14:36So I think when you mention Omar and Hana,
14:39for example, Omar and Hana,
14:42it's not just a Malaysian audience, it's a worldwide audience.
14:47So it's really how do you match some of these things.
14:52And also from a regulatory standpoint,
14:56it's making sure that we support, in the Malaysian context,
15:03the creation of these kind of platforms.
15:05But there's got to be more people, I think,
15:08in the Malaysian context,
15:09particularly those who want to challenge this paradigm.
15:13I think there are not enough platforms,
15:15but maybe it's not about platforms.
15:17Maybe it's about the content,
15:19and then the content can be on any platform.
15:21But the question of our platform, I think that's an interesting...
15:26Yeah, one of the things that bothers me about this is that,
15:28okay, so we produce content.
15:30Even in my work in Bayina, there was always conversation.
15:34It's been a decade now.
15:35We've had conversations about producing short films,
15:38producing documentaries,
15:39producing creative material inspired by the Qur'an,
15:42even fiction material inspired by the Qur'an.
15:44One of my crazy...
15:46I have all kinds of crazy thoughts,
15:47but one of my crazy thoughts was
15:48I wanted to meet filmmakers and producers
15:51that have advisors on their panel
15:54before the scriptwriters put a script together.
15:56I wanted to be a secret advisor
15:58that gives Qur'an input into TV shows,
16:00that secretly inserts Qur'anic messaging
16:02in a show about a hospital or a show about whatever.
16:06So even if my name isn't out there,
16:08but the Qur'an messaging is sneaking its way in somehow.
16:13But even after all of that,
16:14many of you may be familiar with my work
16:16or the other gentlemen and the work that they've put together.
16:19Probably on YouTube or some platform that's owned by not us,
16:23and that generates revenue
16:27and generates more resources for others
16:30and only partially generates something for ourselves.
16:33So the lack of having our own platform
16:35is actually a pretty serious problem.
16:37I would argue, to add to this conversation,
16:39this first question,
16:41for me, I think the biggest challenge
16:44is the sustainability of such a thing.
16:50I'll share this crazy idea
16:52which will lead into the second question.
16:54I'll start with my own.
16:56Soon after 9-11,
16:58there was all this conversation about Islamic extremism
17:01in America, in Europe, in Asia,
17:03in Central Europe, in Australia, etc.
17:07And all this conversation about are all Muslims extremists
17:10and masjids were being monitored in the West
17:13and all kinds of stuff.
17:14At the time, I was like,
17:15we need to discuss these topics,
17:17topics like jihad,
17:19topics like da'wah,
17:21topics like how is the Qur'an talking about non-Muslims,
17:24topics like wala and barat.
17:26These are heavy topics.
17:27And they're very politically incorrect topics.
17:30So if anybody decides to talk about them right now,
17:32they might get a free one-way ticket to Guantanamo Bay.
17:36It doesn't matter what they have to say,
17:38they'll just get jailed up.
17:39But maybe if this was a TV,
17:41because at the time, astaghfirullah,
17:43I watched a movie.
17:44And it was 12 Angry Men.
17:46I don't know if you're familiar with 12 Angry Men,
17:48a classic film.
17:49It was remade also.
17:50It's 12 jurors.
17:52The whole movie was filmed inside of one room.
17:55And 11 of them find the person guilty.
17:58And one of them says,
18:00I don't know, I'm not sure.
18:01And by the end of the hour,
18:03everybody believes he's not guilty,
18:05even though in the beginning,
18:06they're very angry at that one person.
18:07And I said,
18:08wow, what if we had a movie or a TV series
18:11where a bunch of people get arrested
18:13for terrorism charges,
18:15some correctly arrested,
18:17some falsely arrested,
18:18and they're all in the same jail cell.
18:20And they're having a conversation
18:22about what Islam means
18:23and what jihad means.
18:25And they're having unfiltered conversations
18:27because they're actors,
18:28and this is fictional.
18:29So there's no censorship.
18:30It's just let them say whatever they want to say.
18:32And they can echo the sentiments
18:34of all kinds of groups
18:35that are having these conversations about Islam.
18:37And let that all be debated out
18:39in 12 Angry Men style.
18:41And how powerful would that be
18:45for young people
18:46that are heading towards an extreme path,
18:48and it would de-radicalize that
18:50just by watching these episodes.
18:52You know,
18:53if the script is written well
18:55and it's taken into consideration
18:57from scholars,
18:58from psychologists,
18:59from real case studies,
19:01from talking to people
19:02that went down an extreme path,
19:03and what an amazing...
19:05But then I thought,
19:06okay, where am I going to find these actors?
19:07Where am I going to find a producer?
19:09Where am I going to find the crew?
19:11And if we put together a semi-okay product,
19:16nobody's going to watch it
19:18if the lead character is my cousin.
19:23So to me, that is the obstacle,
19:25which leads me to this next question.
19:27What kinds of creative media
19:29would you like to see emerge
19:30for the benefit of both Muslims and non-Muslims
19:32that further an understanding of Islam and Muslims?
19:36What kinds of creative media?
19:38I'd like to see that your imagination
19:41actually be realized.
19:43Oh, would I?
19:44That's just one of my ideas.
19:45I've got a lot.
19:47I'm sorry I can't fund you.
19:50But it's a great idea.
19:53I think what would be very interesting is
19:56I've written scripts before.
19:58I've written in my early...
20:03I was in the US when September 11 happened.
20:06So I understand completely
20:08that mental block,
20:11or that sense of,
20:13gosh, we shouldn't be talking about this.
20:15But I think,
20:17if there's one thing probably
20:19that will be most interesting is
20:21perhaps we've got to,
20:23how do you say,
20:24without it sounding...
20:26We've got to infiltrate,
20:28or we've got to indoctrinate,
20:30or we've got to change the minds
20:31of those who write scripts.
20:33Because fundamentally,
20:35everything that you see,
20:37the basis is,
20:38it's still that written...
20:40Someone's writing the script.
20:42So perhaps what you need is
20:44some kind of...
20:48You pull together all of these
20:50very influential writers
20:53or thinkers about writing,
20:55and then you convince them
20:56that, hey, look,
20:57we've got to change
20:59the way people watch and expect.
21:02You've got me thinking.
21:03I'm sure all of you in your spaces
21:05know scriptwriters.
21:07How did they become scriptwriters?
21:09Did they go through...
21:10What kind of education did they get
21:11to become scriptwriters?
21:13I was, if I can just...
21:14I was a very cheap scriptwriter.
21:17So...
21:20Is that about your cost?
21:23Cost.
21:24Or your, okay.
21:25Cost, I mean, economics.
21:27Okay.
21:31For the, again, Ertugrul example,
21:34the scriptwriter
21:36was his first drama script.
21:40What did he do before then?
21:42He was trying before.
21:44I knew him
21:45because he's a Muslim guy.
21:46He was trying before.
21:47He could make any...
21:49He made a docudrama before.
21:51But he...
21:52My question is,
21:53what was his professional background before?
21:55Now, he's coming from media.
21:57For the scriptwriters,
21:59the most important thing is the trial.
22:02So you need to have chances
22:03that you write something,
22:05someone put it on the screen,
22:07and then you develop yourself.
22:08No.
22:09Someone needs to investigate you.
22:11I mean, the similar mindset,
22:13invest in a similar mindset.
22:16What happens?
22:17But aside from that,
22:18there are professional scriptwriters,
22:20script doctors, let's say.
22:23So they can go over every script
22:26as a doctor,
22:28and then they change your script.
22:30I want to see a show of hands.
22:32How many of you are in university?
22:36A few of you, okay.
22:37Graduated from university already?
22:41Okay, the rest of you.
22:42Okay, great.
22:43How many of you studied
22:44or pursued your education or career path
22:46that had something to do with the media?
22:51Okay, so a few hands.
22:52Okay.
22:53This is higher frequency than most countries.
22:56Because, let me guess,
22:58technology careers?
23:01Finance?
23:03Okay, more hands.
23:04What are the rest of you doing?
23:07You can't all be doctors.
23:12Well, my point was,
23:14if we're saying creativity is blocked
23:18and the source code for so much of it
23:20is script writing,
23:22are we generating a pathway for young people
23:25to say, I can develop and fine-tune this talent
23:29that eventually I can become a script writer?
23:31Yes, go ahead.
23:32Yeah, I think this is how I see it.
23:35This is how I see it.
23:36I've been in the industry for quite a number of years.
23:39We have a lot of talented writers,
23:43artists, I mean, the whole spectrum.
23:47The problem, again, goes back to the platform.
23:53I'll try to segment this.
23:54Why did Omar and Hana make it?
23:56Okay, yeah.
23:57YouTube is a platform.
23:58You can just put anything
23:59and nobody controls the narrative.
24:02You can put any good content, it will grow,
24:05and the algorithm will pick it up,
24:08and if people like it, it can fly.
24:11But I always ask this question to myself.
24:15There's so many Muslim,
24:16and how do you know there's Muslim writers and producers?
24:20Because if you look at credits in the movies in Hollywood,
24:22there are a lot of Muslim names.
24:25So there are people there.
24:27But why aren't they doing Islamic content?
24:31Because there's no economic sustainability to it.
24:34And that comes back to the platform.
24:39Ertugrul was by TRT, fine.
24:41They're big, they're huge.
24:43But besides TRT, who else has that power globally?
24:46Was it easy to get investment for Ertugrul?
24:49TRT is a public broadcaster by people.
24:52Yeah.
24:53It's fine.
24:54No, not fine, but we charge.
24:55Yeah, we got budgeted.
24:57You budgeted.
24:58Was it easy to fight for that budget?
25:01Was it easy to get the budget for the show?
25:03Yes.
25:04It was.
25:05It was easy.
25:06I mean, I was deciding.
25:12The thing is, it was the only TRT had opportunity at that time
25:17to invest in that kind of shows and have the opportunity.
25:21But just to add one thing,
25:25I think that rather than trying to create Islamic content,
25:30your ambition has to be create compelling, entertaining content.
25:36Right.
25:37As a Muslim.
25:38If you're a Muslim person, you will certainly embed the values in the content.
25:45The problem is when we start by thinking we need to teach Islam,
25:51we need to teach values of Islam, and then create the content,
25:54then it becomes the content that is sometimes boring.
25:57So it has to be more creative, engaging, and compelling content.
26:03With an Islamic messaging subtext at most, but it's not overtly Islamic.
26:08Because my criticism of Islamic creative media is we're either too Islamic,
26:14like it looks like an Islamic show meant for Muslims,
26:18or it's just really badly done.
26:24For example, there are Islamic TV channels or Islamic programs on television, etc.
26:30And they all have this really boring overtone to them.
26:35They'll have the same nasheeds playing all the time.
26:41You already know you don't want to tune in the rest of the time.
26:44It's not actually entertaining.
26:46It's not entertaining at all.
26:48And our kids, whether it's Ramadan or not Ramadan,
26:52they want to watch the next episode of the anime show,
26:55or they want to watch a Demon Slayer, or an Attack on Titan, or something.
27:00See? You're making my point.
27:04But we're not thinking along the lines of really getting creative with our media,
27:12with the Islamic messaging embedded.
27:14I'd like to just give one example before I listen to you.
27:17And that is one of the shows I was very entertained by, astaghfirullah,
27:22was a TV drama called House.
27:27And, yes, astaghfirullah indeed.
27:30So the reason I really enjoyed House was because the premise is a doctor
27:36who can diagnose a problem like no other doctor can.
27:40And all of the other doctors are religious in some way or the other.
27:44And all of the patients are typically religious in some way or the other.
27:48And he's constantly making fun of their religion and their faith in a god.
27:52And it was the most successful, brilliant da'wah campaign for atheism I've ever seen.
27:59And I should literally observe his dialogue to see
28:03how is he going to make fun of the Mormon, the Muslim, the Jew,
28:07how is he going to come at God in this episode?
28:10And because you've already set the premise that he's smarter than everyone else,
28:14then atheism must be the smartest outlook than any other outlook.
28:18It's brilliant. Like for a kufr campaign, it's brilliant.
28:23And I was like, if that's the house, what's our version of that?
28:32Because no lecture I do or anybody else does, no conference, no speech,
28:37nothing's going to reach the level of viewership a TV show is going to reach.
28:42That's never going to happen.
28:44We're comparing two different things.
28:47Muslims get happy if a video has a few hundred thousand views
28:50or a million or two million views.
28:52One single episode of some of these things, even a music video,
28:55can have 80, 90 million is low for them.
28:59500 million is low for them.
29:01It could go so much further.
29:03So we do have to think about breaking that barrier.
29:06Hassan, actually, your thoughts first.
29:08Just a quick one.
29:09So in the time that that exchange was taking place,
29:13we were talking about scripts.
29:15So I just asked Chet GPT to write me three scripts.
29:20So I'll just write a short one-minute script for television
29:26about a man and a woman in a room with a table, a gun,
29:29and they're most likely going to kill each other
29:31because of some unknown previous vendetta.
29:34And then Chet GPT came up with something called Shadows in the Past
29:38and it wrote the script.
29:40So then I said, okay, write a short one-minute script, same thing as above,
29:45but in the end, one of them declares that he or she is a Muslim.
29:48So then it wrote a different iteration.
29:51So I think what is interesting in today's world is
29:57we haven't even spoken about AI
30:00and the ethics or the challenges or the opportunities
30:04that's presented by some of these, at the moment,
30:09seemingly innocuous, relatively, I wouldn't say neutral,
30:13but interesting technology.
30:15And some of the work that's happening, for example,
30:20in some of these areas.
30:22So I think in terms of writing, it may not be so much of a problem.
30:28I think maybe it's the willingness or the will
30:32to try and take some of these risks and make this content.
30:37Hassan, you were saying something?
30:39Yeah, I was just going to point on the actual question
30:42with regards to what kind of creative actors.
30:45I don't know why your mic's cutting out.
30:47Can we check into his mic? His mic comes in and out.
30:50So the question on what kind of creative media, content,
30:55platforms we'd like to see in terms of engaging
30:58or Islam-inspired content is what I understood the question.
31:02And there's a couple of issues that have just come out,
31:04which is A, on defining Islamic content versus value-based content,
31:11which we always come across.
31:13So just to respond to a couple of those.
31:15Firstly, I think in terms of the creative mediums,
31:18the three most powerful mediums for creative content,
31:22again, in my opinion, would be music, films, and animation.
31:26I think the reach of each one of these sectors is huge,
31:30untapped potential in a lot of these,
31:32and there is significant potential for sustainability.
31:36That's a different discussion around sustainability.
31:38The second issue around content and Islamic versus non-Islamic,
31:41I think because our own experiences give us perspective
31:45on what we mean by faith.
31:47For example, Ibrahim Abe and also Sinan Abe
31:50are in sort of Muslim-majority countries.
31:53But to create Islamic content isn't much of an attachment or a need
31:59or a thing, because they live in a Muslim country,
32:02and it's about content that is inspired by values.
32:04Coming from a Western Muslim perspective,
32:06growing up in whether it's Toronto, San Francisco, London,
32:10there is that vacuum of identity.
32:12And cultural content like this is not just about generic content
32:15that makes us feel good, but it's about, no,
32:17I really want to see my values, my teachings, my worldview,
32:21my whatever it may be, reflected in this media content.
32:24So I think there is this sort of tension between
32:27the Muslim-majority spaces when we look at creating content
32:32and sort of coming from a, not necessarily a diaspora
32:35or a minority from a victimhood mentality.
32:37I'm going to disagree with you on this one.
32:39Of course, you have every right to do so.
32:41Totally going to do it, yeah.
32:42And thirdly, just to build on that, and I'll come back to that,
32:44I think I personally, on a marketing level,
32:49I see the marketing value of the word Islamic content,
32:53but on a philosophical level, I disagree with the word Islamic
32:58when it comes to content.
33:00Explain.
33:01So what I mean is this, is that I think the adjective Islamic
33:05is more an expression of how modern economies work,
33:10especially in our creative space,
33:12to start labeling and segmentize audiences and content.
33:16Islamic content is for Muslims.
33:18Islamic content is for Muslims, Islamic content is religious,
33:20Islamic content is X, Y, and Z demographics.
33:23Islamic, I mean, I speak of the experience of, let's say,
33:26in the music space or the sheath, et cetera.
33:30Music is music.
33:32Although we frame our work as Islamic music,
33:35I actually don't agree with Islamic on this music side.
33:38Islamic simply because of marketing considerations,
33:41because of positioning considerations.
33:43What we define as Islamic, I think Islamic is quite an adjective
33:47that has come to use now, that is used quite widely
33:50around different sectors, Islamic finance, Islamic banking,
33:53and I know Malaysia is home to a lot of this.
33:55But I think if we mean by Islamic just Sharia compliance
33:58or the fixed type, then we're limiting the power
34:01of what we mean by Islam.
34:03So for me, I would say any content out there that inspires
34:08truth, goodness, beauty, is Islamic on a philosophical level.
34:12But that kind of proposition doesn't work on a marketing level,
34:16doesn't work on a market segmentation, sustainability model.
34:19You need to categorize yourself.
34:21Who is your audience, or the whole world?
34:23It doesn't work, unfortunately.
34:25But that's what I mean by this.
34:26Well, it worked with Ertugrul.
34:28The audience was lots of non-Muslims too for Ertugrul, isn't it?
34:31Yeah, there are many non-Muslim audience for Ertugrul.
34:34Even they were wearing Crusades.
34:37Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had an Elf hat, yeah.
34:40Especially from South America.
34:43Yeah, for the people of oppressed countries, let's say.
34:47They connected with it.
34:48Yeah, they're connected.
34:49So on the note about Muslim versus, Muslim minority versus
34:52Muslim country, cultural dialect.
34:54Like, I've come to Malaysia many times.
34:56I love coming here.
34:57I've been to other Muslim countries.
35:00Something became clear to me after a while.
35:04And what became clear to me is, even though culturally Islam is
35:07the accepted way of life here.
35:10So a hijab is not weird.
35:12The adhan is not strange.
35:13The food is halal, and everybody knows that.
35:15Even the non-Muslims know what halal and haram is.
35:18But at a psychological level for the youth,
35:21the things that non-Muslim youth go towards are not very different.
35:27I would argue they're the same that the Muslim youth are going towards.
35:31And the media that's being consumed by non-Muslims is actually
35:34practically the same media that's being consumed by Muslims.
35:37I threw out Demon Slayer, and a bunch of people got slayed.
35:40Like, oh.
35:42Because we're part of a globalized world now, right?
35:47So my argument is that we have to expand the scope of Islamic,
35:52or Islam-inspired content to be that the messaging is there,
35:57and it's abiding by our principles, which is going to lead me to this.
36:00I'm going to skip a question and come to this really difficult question.
36:03Issues around music.
36:05Issues around having actors and actresses.
36:08Issues around animation.
36:10And there are fatawa related to this stuff.
36:12And there are sensitivities around this stuff from a sharia perspective.
36:16And for a lot of those reasons, Muslims will produce cartoons,
36:20for example, with no eyes.
36:22And you have a kid's show with no eyes.
36:25Which, as an adult, when I look at it, I'm terrified.
36:28But I'm trying to convince my child that this is really good for you.
36:33Or they've been cartoons of myself,
36:37but it would be un-Islamic for me to be drawn,
36:40so my head is floating above my shoulders.
36:43Because once you draw the neck, it's just too human.
36:47So, this kind of thing is something that we, I think, need clarity.
36:53Because the public, you can't expect the market, the Muslim audiences,
36:59to consume something when they feel there's an element of haram in it.
37:03There's an element of something, it's a sinful thing to do.
37:06And I can have my personal fiqh opinions on it, my own discourse on it,
37:10but until there's a public, elaborate conversation on these few subjects
37:15that are, to me, one of the main obstacles in creative media,
37:19is actually what some people consider the Islamic restrictions on this stuff.
37:24And I think that needs to be taken head-on,
37:27but the only way, in my opinion, the only way that can happen
37:30is not if I give a speech on it, or you give a speech on it,
37:33or we write an article about it.
37:35The only way that can happen is round-table discussion, debate, unfiltered,
37:40let's look at all the evidences, let's try to understand
37:43if somebody at the end of it all says it's haram no matter what,
37:47then at least we understand how they arrived at that conclusion.
37:50And if someone says your arguments are weak,
37:53at least we know what arguments they used,
37:55and they didn't have a conversation at each other,
37:57but they had a conversation with each other.
38:00Because we've become too accustomed to that kind of a narrative.
38:04This sounds like an episode from 12 Angry Men.
38:06That's right.
38:08It is, but I do think it's one of the main obstacles.
38:12Yeah, and I'm sure you can all share stories
38:15of when you produced your creative content,
38:18some of the backlash you must have received
38:21because you're entering into creative space
38:23that somebody thinks it's a violation of Islam itself.
38:26I had many, to be honest.
38:30I'll give you one or two of them.
38:33I remember that in 2001, I decided to produce,
38:38at that time I started producing cartoons and animations,
38:42in a simple way with Flash and other things,
38:45an Islamic CD at that time,
38:48and I asked my very close friend who studied in Turkey
38:54if I can draw cartoons,
38:58and he said, no, you can't, it's haram.
39:01So I changed my friend,
39:03and found another friend who said it is halal,
39:10and this is how I started.
39:13At PRT, I remember the days that,
39:17still there is no fatwa about your depicting a woman,
39:23that non-Muslim woman, serious,
39:27with non-Muslim thoughts on it,
39:30halal or not.
39:32Usually it says haram.
39:35So when it is your limitation,
39:39it's impossible to do anything about the bad things.
39:46And another example from an Islamic content,
39:51which is a competition,
39:54Quran Tilabe competition,
39:57it was the first time it happened in Turkey,
39:59during my tenure at that time.
40:02But people from the Muslim community were very against it,
40:08because we are using Quran as a way of rating God's talent.
40:14Who is the best Qari?
40:17Who is the best Qari?
40:19Because our teaser was very close to it.
40:25It was close to America's God's talent?
40:28But I had many challenges when creating those kind of...
40:34What are your thoughts on this, Hassan?
40:36How do we overcome this kind of sharia-fiqh based discussion?
40:41How do we deal with it?
40:42I'll respond in two ways.
40:43I'll give you some anecdotes from our own experience,
40:46and I'll share some thoughts as well.
40:48There's two anecdotes, one over music,
40:50which I think, and again, look,
40:53in different parts of the Muslim world,
40:55there's different reactions to music.
40:56I think, generally speaking, in this part of the world,
40:59Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.,
41:01they're a lot more accommodating, let's say, of the music.
41:05But generally, in the world that we navigate,
41:07or that we've been navigating,
41:09music was taboo, music was haram,
41:11music was one of the grave sins,
41:13music is outlawed in Bukhari,
41:16the kind of narrative around this.
41:18So that's why it posed us a difficult challenge as content producers,
41:23where theologically, we didn't hold that opinion.
41:26We adopted the opinion that it is permissible,
41:29within whatever guideline and framework there was,
41:32but the audience wasn't ready.
41:34So the journey that we had actually showed
41:37that it wasn't necessarily the scholars,
41:39but actually the content producers
41:41that can guide a conversation, even around fiqh and sharia,
41:44by the content that we produce.
41:45So to give an example,
41:46the first ever album that we produced,
41:4920 years ago now, in 2003,
41:52was purely a percussive album.
41:56No music, but the full range of percussive instruments,
41:59about 18 different types of percussive instruments.
42:01We went for the limit for the halal, in the conventional sense.
42:05Then we realized, with our artists,
42:07that, you know what, this is just killing our creativity.
42:09Why can't we use music?
42:11Our issue wasn't the theology of the fiqh, personally,
42:14but it was the audience, the market, the standability.
42:17So we decided to produce two versions of the second album.
42:20This is an album by Sami Yusuf.
42:22A halal version and a...
42:23A halal version and a not-so-halal version.
42:27Fake, fake.
42:29Anyway, a percussive version and a music version.
42:33We thought, and we priced the music version
42:37more expensive than the percussive version.
42:40Okay.
42:41Because it costs more to produce with music.
42:43Right.
42:44We thought there would be a boycott of Muslim shops.
42:47We thought there's these, you know,
42:49mediums by which you reach the audience.
42:51But because of the demand that was created by the content,
42:54because of the integrity that the label had,
42:56in terms of, no, look, they do care about Islam.
42:59It's this company, this brand,
43:01does try to maintain some degree of Sharia compliance.
43:04Yeah.
43:05There was a degree of confidence in the market that, look,
43:07whatever they bring out, somewhere, somewhere,
43:09they've probably got some backing.
43:11But what happened was that we actually ended up
43:14destroying the percussive version, more or less.
43:17Oh.
43:18And the bookshops only wanted the music version.
43:20And these are the same bookshops we would never have thought.
43:24Wow, that's incredible.
43:27So here, there is this sort of tension.
43:31The other issue was around music videos and acting.
43:34Okay, what do we put out there?
43:36Do we just put this sort of idealist, utopian image
43:40of what religiosity means?
43:42Or do we actually visually express reality as it is?
43:46The reality as it is, we'll have female,
43:49we'll have female without hijabs.
43:51So what do we do?
43:53So instead of trying to seek fatwas for this,
43:56we thought, let's just produce it.
43:58Let's produce it.
43:59Take it with a few scholars that we have confidence in.
44:01It's like a Malaysian saying, do it first, say sorry later.
44:04Is that a thing here?
44:06So we did this.
44:08We did a song.
44:09It's called Asma Allah Al-Husna.
44:11It's about different people singing Allah's name.
44:14And there were people of different races,
44:16class, hijabis, non-hijabis, black, white, etc.
44:19We showed it to a leading Syrian scholar at the time.
44:22We didn't ask him the question.
44:24We just told him to look at it.
44:26And he said, yeah, what's the question?
44:28So the fact that he didn't even pick up on it,
44:31we didn't seek a formal sort of guidance on,
44:35is this allowed?
44:36Can we put non-hijabis on?
44:38So here, I would contend from that,
44:40that yes, there is a need for guidance
44:44in terms of fiqh, in terms of sharia.
44:46But I think the way forward for that
44:49is not to create sharia books.
44:51It's not for creative people to go to sharia experts
44:53and ask them.
44:54Because I think creativity is about expanding horizons,
44:58not limiting.
44:59Fiqh is limiting.
45:01Fiqh ultimately is about boundaries.
45:03So not that there isn't a fiqh question here.
45:06There are definitely fiqh questions if there were.
45:08But part of that, I think, is also by...
45:10But maybe the production of that media
45:12and its popularity will force a deeper
45:14and richer fiqh conversation,
45:16not the other way around.
45:17Absolutely.
45:18Okay.
45:19Ismail, what's been your experience with Omar and Hana
45:21and some of the...
45:22Perhaps because it's animation,
45:24I'm sure you received some concerns about
45:26it being haram and things like that.
45:28How did your project navigate that?
45:30Right.
45:31I'll answer that,
45:32and then I have points each time I need to bring up.
45:34Of course, yes.
45:35So I'll keep this one short.
45:37They have very, very minimum backlash.
45:40Omar and Hana, alhamdulillah.
45:42I guess Islam is the right intention,
45:44the right way.
45:45We have the sharia compliance behind us.
45:47Probably the worst thing is probably music and non-music.
45:49But again, we also have both versions available on YouTube.
45:53Okay.
45:54So I just want to bring back to a few points.
45:57One is Islamic versus non-Islamic.
45:59I mean, you mentioned about house
46:01and all these other big content from around the world.
46:06And you say that the Muslim ones are kind of like behind.
46:10Yeah.
46:11Which I do agree.
46:12But the main question is why?
46:14And it comes back to budget.
46:16Budget.
46:17How much does it take to produce a Pixar movie
46:21versus made by Muslims?
46:23Right.
46:24And even with AI or whatever you want to call it, right?
46:28I mean, there's technology that can help,
46:30but still, the budgets for the Muslim
46:33or maybe the Islamic product,
46:36or again, Islamic,
46:39but in terms of the content produced by Muslims, right,
46:44is very much different.
46:47And again, that comes to my point of investments into this industry,
46:51investments into the platform.
46:54And I think this, to be honest,
46:57being on this panel at the World Quran Convention,
47:00I think it's amazing because we're starting to see
47:03that creative media has a part to play
47:06in educating the Muslim globally.
47:08Yeah.
47:09And we need to go beyond the amateur
47:11or this one-off kinds of projects,
47:13which I do encourage.
47:14I think content producers that are just amateurs
47:16and they're doing it on their own
47:18are actually starting to do some pretty amazing work,
47:20and it's emerging.
47:22But if we're going to play with the big boys as it is,
47:24then we're going to have to,
47:26which leads me to the last two questions.
47:28I know somebody in the audience...
47:29Can I finish it?
47:30Oh, your thoughts, yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:31Just a few points.
47:32Regarding the Islamic interpretation that you mentioned just now,
47:36I agree with you that, again,
47:38Rodeo Plus is a Netflix for Muslim children.
47:42It's not an Islamic streaming platform.
47:44And why do we say that?
47:45We have content from all around the world,
47:47from Korea, from the US, UK,
47:50used by non-Muslims.
47:51But again, they have good values.
47:53We filter the narratives which are not suitable for us.
47:56Right.
47:57And again, another point I would say that
48:00we have a few examples,
48:02and there's not many more beyond this.
48:04You have The Awakenings,
48:05you have Ertugrul,
48:06you have Omar Hana.
48:07Name a few more.
48:08I'm not sure.
48:09But if you look at all three projects,
48:11what you can see is Ihsan.
48:14It's done beautifully.
48:17It's done professionally.
48:20If you see the storytelling or the work behind it,
48:23it's done in a very professional way.
48:28And that's why it worked.
48:29And of course, you'll see the budget for it.
48:31It's not like the others.
48:33Right.
48:34So I think we need to look at the foundation
48:36of what the core of the problem is.
48:38Again, understanding that,
48:40hey, native media can make a big impact
48:43to the Muslim world.
48:44Absolutely.
48:45And we collectively need to invest into it together.
48:49So takeaways, as we reach the conclusion of this,
48:52what do you folks feel are the primary takeaways?
48:58How do we get this kick-started?
49:01What are the first steps?
49:02And what can our audience take from this discussion
49:05as far as, okay,
49:06I personally see the value in creative media.
49:08I hope you guys see that to an extent,
49:10how much creative media is impacting us anyway.
49:13But what are some things that we would consider
49:16first steps to get this process started
49:18and to bring a new age of creative media
49:20to the Muslim world?
49:24I think, just a quick one,
49:27that whole thing about not having the hang-up
49:30of labeling your own work as Islamic or not Islamic
49:35and just doing it,
49:37and then finding a market and audience for it,
49:40I think that's an interesting organic approach.
49:45Because I think sometimes we maybe become too defensive.
49:53If you were to ask me,
49:54maybe the content is not only for Muslims,
49:58but if it were to be da'wah,
50:00then it should be talking to non-Muslims
50:03and drawing them in.
50:06So if you were to ask me,
50:08one is that whole principle of just do it
50:11and then resolve the contradictions as you go along.
50:16But also, as an intellectual project,
50:19probably having a kind of intelligentsia,
50:24having a kind of group of people
50:28who are in positions to create a little bit of influence,
50:32to seed these Islamic notions,
50:37without needing to say as such perhaps,
50:40and then you get, you know,
50:42the kind of content just suddenly appearing.
50:45I think that would be, to me,
50:48the most interesting subversive approach.
50:52Insha'Allah.
50:54I know our time is up,
50:56I need to wrap this up,
50:57but I'm just going to ask,
50:59I'll just pick any one of you,
51:00whoever answers this first.
51:02If you were to look at Surah Al-Insan,
51:05and for yourself you'd say,
51:07hey, this would be,
51:08which ayah or which theme in Surah Al-Insan
51:11would be the inspiration of a creative work?
51:15What would it be?
51:17And we'll end with that, insha'Allah.
51:20I have some ideas about,
51:22I think there are several ayahs
51:24that can create movies about it.
51:27The first ayah, as you say,
51:29you can create a planet of apes,
51:32based on that first ayah,
51:34that there's a man, there's a time,
51:36there's no mention of man.
51:39But I would pick up from
51:50And I would probably produce,
51:52let's say, a movie called Coincidence.
51:57And we depict different people
52:04from different times,
52:06different geographies,
52:08and they go on a kind of similar journey.
52:12But then some coincidences happen
52:15with some of them.
52:17So this is where
52:21So that kind of movie can happen.
52:24You remember the movie of,
52:26what was the name?
52:28The Missing Train movie.
52:30It's about the fate and destiny.
52:32But that destiny changes
52:34based on your decisions.
52:36But very small decisions,
52:38like a butterfly effect.
52:40So I would probably choose that ayah
52:42to make a,
52:44when we say coincidence,
52:46it's probably Allah's
52:49This is probably I would choose.
52:53And for another ayah,
52:55lastly,
52:57the ayah about the
53:07I would probably do an anime about it.
53:10An anime,
53:12like a fantasy world,
53:16that a group of people for centuries
53:18helping people
53:20for sustainable development.
53:22And then one turned to the dark side.
53:24Then there's a new era began.
53:27Now another people
53:29who are also helping people,
53:31but not for which Allah.
53:33So two kind of groups are
53:37those kind of creative ideas.
53:39But I would pick probably coincidence.
53:42That would be an interesting question
53:44for all of you too, inshallah.
53:46I know some people had questions,
53:48but I guess we'll off the stage
53:50because now we're in a break.
53:52We'll get to share some of those thoughts with you.
53:54I'd love to hear from all of you, inshallah.
53:56But what I'd like to end with
53:58as we wrap up this panel,
54:00I think this is an amazing start to a conversation.
54:02I think everybody would agree.
54:04I think there's a lot more to unpack here
54:06that the ummah is in need of.
54:08From the scholarly perspective,
54:10just understanding the needs of the audience perspective,
54:12I'm sure the young people here
54:14have many ideas about what kinds of media there can be.
54:16I can just tell you,
54:18as far as creativity is concerned,
54:20so much of what I do in giving my lectures
54:22of the Quran
54:24is informed by creativity.
54:26And if I wasn't,
54:28because to me, to be a teacher,
54:30to be an effective communicator,
54:32you cannot do so without creativity.
54:34There's no way to accomplish that without creativity.
54:36I'm very grateful to all of you guys
54:38for your thoughts. Yes, Ismail?
54:40I just want to hijack you
54:42and get the message across, right?
54:44I think one thing which we talk about
54:46and orang Melayu kata
54:48takut kosong.
54:50We need to take action.
54:52So,
54:54just taking this opportunity to be here,
54:56you can go back,
54:58get your kids back on YouTube,
55:00on Netflix, on Disney Plus.
55:02But I want to take this opportunity
55:04to try and ask you to download
55:06Durio Plus.
55:08Get it to your kids. This is not marketing.
55:10This is Hadith Fayah. Spreading the message.
55:12Try it on your kids.
55:14We have kids and parents who have
55:16paid impact.
55:18And I really want you to try.
55:20You can connect me on LinkedIn.
55:22Give me the feedback.
55:24If it works, if it doesn't work.
55:26Because this is a marathon, this is a mission.
55:28We want to build a better Ummah in the future, Inshallah.
55:30So please, please try to do that.
55:35I hope you guys enjoyed that video clip.
55:37My team and I have been working
55:39tirelessly to try to create
55:41as many resources for Muslims to give
55:43them first steps in understanding the Qur'an
55:45all the way to the point where they can
55:47have a deep, profound understanding
55:49of the Qur'an. We are students of the Qur'an ourselves.
55:51And we want you to be students of the Qur'an
55:53alongside us. Join us for this journey
55:55on bayyinatv.com where
55:57thousands of hours of work have already been put in.
55:59And don't be intimidated. It's step by step
56:01by step so you can make learning the Qur'an
56:03a part of your lifestyle.
56:05There's lots of stuff available on YouTube
56:07but it's all over the place. If you want an organized
56:09approach to studying the Qur'an beginning
56:11to end for yourself, your kids, your family
56:13and even among peers, that would
56:15be the way to go. Sign up for bayyinatv.com