Faith Assembly: Hobart Freeman's Version of Branhamism? - Episode 189 Branham Research Podcast - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   This discussion delves deeply into the shared history between two churches named "Faith Assembly," one founded by Hobart Freeman and the other rooted in William Branham's teachings. Although initially unconnected, parallels and shared doctrines emerge, notably from the Latter Rain Movement and influences from other charismatic leaders such as Gordon Lindsay and Kenneth Hagin. Both churches seem to share ideas around divine healing, manifestations of the sons of God, and prophetic ministry, though each group may deny a direct link. The conversation highlights the difficulty in tracing precise doctrinal origins but demonstrates that these movements borrowed heavily from each other, ultimately forming various sects with similar eschatological views.  Furthermore, the speakers reflect on the nature of cult leadership and how teachings evolve over time. Hobart Freeman, for example, began by referencing many early charismatic figures favorably before eventually positioning himself as the sole holder of a complete end-time revelation. The dialogue touches on the need for critical examination of religious teachings and the dangers of unquestioned allegiance to a group or leader, particularly when past connections and shared ideas are unearthed.  Chino's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross  00:00 Introduction   01:02 Branham vs. Freeman: Exploring the Connections   04:03 Mind Control Cults: Similarities in Structure   07:06 Distancing from Branham: Hobart Freeman’s Position   10:28 Faith Assembly's History and Coincidences   14:09 Speculations on Freeman’s Early Influences   18:00 White Supremacy, Christian Identity, and Branham   20:19 Freeman’s Shift from Liberalism to Charismatic Beliefs   23:08 Greater Works Ministry and Healing Emphasis   26:04 The Search for the Next “Prophet” After Branham   28:00 Lester Sumrall’s Influence on Freeman’s Followers   31:04 Manifested Sons of God and Other Shared Teachings   36:11 Adoption and Eschatology in Freeman’s Doctrine   40:09 The Role of Educated Professionals in the Faith Assembly   44:48 Worship Styles and Church Practices in Faith Assembly   47:49 Addressing Freeman’s Connections with Other Figures   52:09 Wrapping Up: The Latter Rain Movement’s Enduring Influence ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00You

00:30Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast

00:36I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham historical research at William dash Branham org and

00:44With me. I have my co-host minister and friend Charles Paisley

00:48Author of come out of her my people and also today

00:52We have channel Ross pastor and voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chino D Ross YouTube channel

00:59And today we're having a very special episode of Branham versus Freeman

01:05I don't know how how better to call this

01:08We I've had several people and I think you may have to Chino

01:12But people from Faith Assembly who've contacted me and people from the Branham cult that have contacted me

01:19the people from the Branham cult

01:21informed me that they were part of the organization sending the

01:26Literature and they were sending crates of these books into

01:29Faith Assembly

01:31the version of Faith Assembly that is Hobart Freeman and I've had the Freeman heights tell me that they

01:37Have the had the books and had the recordings

01:40In fact, just I want to say is either last night or the night before

01:44I just received another person who said that they studied William Branham intently and

01:50whenever Charles pointed out the similarities that I

01:54Somehow missed but Charles's Branhamite Church was called Faith Assembly and Hobart Freemans was called Faith Assembly

02:01I thought I've got to get you guys in a room and just duke it out

02:05So this is gonna be I represent the Freeman camp and Charles you represent the Branham camp

02:13That's it's pretty interesting, isn't it?

02:15I thought what I would do today John and I came prepared to do a little bit of a Faith Assembly show-and-tell so

02:22Our church Faith Assembly Church

02:25In Indiana is the flagship church of one of the largest sects of the message

02:31Most no, I would say most half of the churches in our sect of the message are called Faith Assembly

02:36There are Faith Assembly churches of our sect across the United States

02:39Canada Europe

02:41Africa Australia the Philippines we are we are one of the oldest largest sects of the message

02:48And the fact that dr. Freeman's church was called Faith Assembly is a

02:54Big coincidence. We always actually had awareness of Hobart Freeman in our churches. And so I was a little bit

03:00Surprised when I found out that Hobart Freeman's churches didn't have awareness of us. And so I thought I would maybe

03:07Talk a little bit about our faith assemblies what we were like what we preached what was going on back in those same years and

03:14maybe

03:16Hey, maybe you guys can find some some interesting overlaps

03:20and I think one other thing that that for myself John one of the things that shook me like crazy awake when I was

03:28In the message is we believed we were an elite special people with an elite special revelation that nobody else in the world had anything like

03:36And you know our five-fold ministry of preachers was the special, you know group from God that had all the revelation

03:42But when you start discovering that there are other groups

03:46That are almost exactly like you even down to the name

03:50It kind of shakes you out of that whole mindset that you're so special

03:55Because the truth is we're all actually just copying from each other and we're all splinter groups of the same ladder rain movement

04:02Yeah, I'll never forget whenever I

04:05Started to deprogram and I began working with dr

04:08Hassan and he was explaining how mind control cults work and he and I actually worked with a few different cult

04:15experts and they were sharing with me just the

04:19structure not the theology but the structure of how a cult works and

04:23It's almost as if there's this cookie cutter stamp and they just stamp them and create here's another cult and here's another cult

04:30Now the doctrines may be different and so the people who escaped they don't see the similarity so much

04:35But the framework and the architecture of it is the same

04:39Cheneau I know I've been forwarding you a lot of the emails from Faith Assembly the the escapees

04:45Have you encountered anybody who has mentioned?

04:50Branham ism or anything that is remotely resembling what we came out of

04:54The only person so far that has mentioned anything regarding to William Branham was the gentleman I heard from

05:01Yesterday or actually I reached out to him

05:04He had sent you an email you forwarded to me and maybe at some point you'll have him on the program

05:09but I did call him last night and we had a

05:14Decent conversation. I was busy with some at a car repair shop

05:18So I said I'll I will call you again this weekend and we will talk some more

05:23But he said that he had heard quite a few of William Branham's messages

05:29but was actually a part of

05:32The Freeman Faith Assembly for a number of years and

05:36Knew the men and knew the ministers and I myself as I might have told you

05:42Months ago John in an interview with you on this as we first got to know each other and we're looking for the connections

05:49Hobart Freeman mentioned William Branham often

05:54mostly on the early tapes and

05:57on the very early tapes it was in

06:00Pretty high praise of Branham and when I say really early like

06:051970 and 71 72 and then by the time we got to 73 74

06:13Hobart was trying to distance himself from a lot of the ministers that he had mentioned under favorable

06:20circumstances before like John Osteen

06:25Kenneth Hagen

06:26Lester Sumrall

06:28I mean, there are a lot of people but what but the big one was William Branham and even though he distanced himself

06:37The way he did it at the end was saying and I've given these actual quotes and timestamps

06:43It doesn't matter what people say about William Branham. I believe he was God's prophet

06:49He actually said that on

06:51Numerous occasions and the reason he had to say I don't care what people say about Branham is he thought there were some

06:58Erroneous things that Branham was beginning to teach. This is always Hobart's view at the end of his life

07:04So he wanted to distance himself from that, but he never could say

07:10William Branham was a kook never said anything like that. He said I believe he was God's prophet

07:17So I'm just gonna play referee. I'm gonna let you two

07:20Start talking and I'll just sit off. I'm a third wheel on the side, but you two have the wealth of information

07:26so Charles, I'll let you take lead and you can ask questions and

07:31We'll just take it from there. Sure. So I came prepared. Like I said to just do a little show-and-tell

07:36I I think

07:38Maybe we can I'll give some some marks maybe as we come along

07:41But the first thing I thought I would show you is is the printed literature of faith assembly

07:46So this is called the contender magazine. It's the printed voice of faith assembly. We published

07:53about a dozen issues a year

07:55With the teachings of our churches and what I'm holding here is our issues two issues from 1983

08:02Which I'm sure is a year of infamy in Hobart Freeman's Faith Assembly, right?

08:07And as you can see we published we published a multi-edition

08:12articles divine healing

08:14What it is and what it is not and these were these were actually published in direct response to

08:19the scandal that unfolded with Hobart Freeman and

08:22From this point forward we were in full denunciation of Hobart Freeman

08:27And and this is actually

08:29How a lot of us already had awareness of Hobart Freeman. I know for me personally

08:33this is where my initial awareness of Hobart Freeman came from is when we

08:39Denounced him and more or less we said hey

08:41We have nothing to do with this guy and growing up in in our faith assembly churches, of course, naturally

08:47I thought well that must be it. We never had nothing to do with this guy

08:50Hey, it's it's a total coincidence. His church has the same name as ours. It's a total coincidence

08:54They believe a lot of the same stuff we believe yet. Our leaders tell us we had nothing to do with them

08:59So we must never have but as I'm on this side of things and woke up. I no longer think that's the case

09:06I think that you know

09:07If we dig a bit we will probably find that we share some common roots in the 50s or possibly even the early 60s

09:15Our faith assembly is actually older than Hobart Freeman's ours was started in 1955

09:21In Jeffersonville, Indiana or rather, you know, Southern Indiana and what I have to one more thing. I want to show

09:28This is a newspaper article

09:31where Hobart Freeman became pastor of the Baptist Church in Sellersburg and

09:36this church is

09:39Roughly four miles away from our faith assembly church off the same road. Okay

09:46Which again is just almost too much of a coincidence to dismiss. I

09:51Really find it inconceivable that he was not aware of the existence of our faith assembly church

09:57It's almost impossible that he was pastor of the Sellersburg Church and could not have been aware of our faith assembly church

10:05And at that point our faith assembly church was still growing

10:10it was before Branham had died and we actually before we had went on all of our church planning and

10:16Recruitment and grew into the the International Fellowship that that it is now. So anyways, that's the first thing. I thought I would share

10:23so

10:24Timeline for Hobart. He got saved in 1952

10:29into a Baptist

10:31understanding of Scripture and

10:33Graduated from that into the Brethren

10:37Belief of Scripture and that happened because when he went to Georgetown College in the early 1950s

10:44He went to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville

10:48Which is not far for people that are away from us not far from Jeffersonville, Indiana. It's just across the river

10:54But at that time this was pre dr. Albert Moeller who is a current president of the Southern Baptist Seminary?

11:02That was a

11:03Very concert a very liberal time at the Southern Baptist Seminary. It was not like what you'll find there today and

11:11Dr. Freeman at that time just Hobart Freeman did not agree with that liberal message

11:18So he worked his way up to Grace Seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana

11:22Where he ended up getting his doctoral degree in Old Testament in Hebrew

11:27So while he was at Southern Baptist, that's when he would have been a

11:33Supply pastor a student pastor at a church or several churches there in southern, Indiana

11:41but whenever he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in March March 19th of

11:471966 then his whole outlook on theology and on the church changed

11:53So in my mind I would go back

11:56Charles and say I'm sure he was aware of

12:01Branham's group of Faith Assembly

12:05Branham version in southern, Indiana

12:07Just driving around there in the late 50s in the early 60s and probably thought yeah

12:14What a what a bunch of nuts over there

12:17Speaking in tongues and believing in healing

12:19But when he got the baptism in the Holy Spirit

12:21One of the first things that he did and he tells this over and over on his tapes is he went to Dallas, Texas?

12:29in the late spring of

12:311966 to Christ for the Nations Institute

12:34They were having a big meeting there. Gordon Lindsay was still alive at the time and the keynote speaker was Kenneth Hagan and

12:42Of course Branham had died just I mean not even six months prior to Hobart going to this convention

12:50With Gordon Lindsay and Kenneth Hagan and it was at that convention that he got this famous prophecy

12:58from Anna Schrader

12:59That was calling him into this, you know unique in time ministry

13:04And I'm sure when he went away from that now all the charismatic

13:10Literature and parts of Christendom were

13:14Extremely interesting to dr. Freeman and you guys know better than I do Gordon Lindsay's connection to William Branham

13:21So you can only speculate the stories that he heard down there as a newly baptized in the Holy Spirit

13:29Seminary professor about William Branham

13:32So when he comes back, he is going to be very interested in following up on what's going down there going on in southern, Indiana

13:40you know what we have found a lot of times as we look at these people is that

13:45we find that they were not always quite honest with their backstory and

13:48Let me poke a few holes there and what hope in that in in Hobart Freeman's piece of Christ for the Nations Institute didn't exist in

13:551966

13:57It didn't actually come together until the 70s. What what Gordon Lindsay had back then was something different

14:02It was actually the transition piece where he was wrapping up voice of healing and transitioning into what would eventually become Christ for the Nations

14:09But Christ for the Nations didn't exist as its own entity at that point. That was a creation of the city in the 70s

14:16So what he would have been going to then so like when he told that story he was probably kind of rewriting what happened there

14:24You know to say he was there

14:26In the early basically using their ladle it or later to label to what he was there at in the 60s

14:32They

14:34Were still deeply connected to a lot of the stuff going on in our churches back then like Gordon Lindsay had been with our pastor

14:42Holding meetings just a few months prior to that

14:45And you also mentioned the how he traveled from the southern he would been at the seminary in Louisville

14:50And then the church that he pastored in Sellers Berg

14:53So the main route from there between those two sites actually passed directly past our church

14:59To actually so it's impossible that traveling from that seminary to his church

15:03he would not have drove directly past our faith assembly, so I

15:07Suspect if we dig a little bit something had to make him aware that Gordon Lindsay even existed, right?

15:12Something had to make him aware made him want to go to Dallas

15:16I mean why pack up and go to Dallas out of the blue from a Baptist seminary. I

15:21Would suggest he probably had some connections in that period of time that he has not told people about if we dig a little bit

15:30Going out on a limb a little bit that turned him on to this stuff

15:33And he conveniently leaves the bits of pieces of that out of his story

15:38And kind of transfers his start to you know that that point in Dallas, but I would bet you if we look

15:45We'll be able to find out that he was in connection with our churches

15:49In the late 50s and possibly into the it may be as late as the late 50s

15:54Early as the late 50s and maybe in the 60 early 60s as well

15:58Just a guess

15:59There's some interesting history to that ties all of this weirdness together

16:04Southern Baptist Seminary when you hear the name and you think about it

16:08You're thinking Southern Baptist and there's no way that they would be connected to latter rain

16:12Well William D. Upshaw former congressman William D

16:16Upshaw who toured with and promoted William Branham promoted him from Louisville and

16:23Upshaw was the vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention and you can go to the Southern Baptist

16:29Seminary in Louisville and you can find all the Upshaw

16:32Information he was one of William Branham's probably the most

16:37strongest

16:38Supporter of William Branham

16:39He's the one that

16:41Entered into the prayer line in a wheelchair pretending that he was confined to it and Branham raised him up

16:47So there's that connection, but also I don't think we've ever talked about this channel William Branham was deeply

16:54Deeply connected to the Brethren Church

16:56He was very close friends with e Howard Cato who is the reason why the Brethren Churches exist in this area?

17:03Cato was planting churches left and right and he was they called him the tabernacle man

17:09He was going around through southern, Indiana

17:11northern, Kentucky

17:13planting Brethren Church

17:15Tabernacles and William Branham's wedding. I can't remember if his first wife or second

17:20I think it might be his second was performed by a Brethren minister

17:23So Branham was deeply in bed with these guys and Cato is the one who ran the Klan?

17:30Headquarters in Indianapolis his tabernacle was the headquarters of the Ku Klux Klan that Upshaw was

17:37Upshaw was the public defender for and I think he was one of the original founders

17:42I can't prove that yet, but he and Davis were working together with the original Klan

17:47So you've got the white supremacy connecting it all you've got the Brethren Church and then you mentioned Anna Schrader

17:54Well, the reason why Hobart says that he went astray in the later years is because Anna Schrader prophesied

18:00That William Branham in the end of his life had gone in the way of Dowey

18:03And that was the big prophecy that all of these guys were saying he's a true prophet of God and he went like Dowey

18:12So that's where Hobart Freeman got this directly from Anna Schrader. I got one other thing. I'll show you here

18:19So this is a book published by Gordon Lindsay in 1966

18:23This would have been published at the same time that Hobart Freeman would have supposed to have come into contact with him

18:28Here's the the published date in it, but this is

18:33The man Elijah will not die

18:36This was published within a couple two or three months of William Branham dying. Okay

18:41Gordon Lindsay and this was part of a series Gordon Lindsay after when William Branham died in

18:47Those exact years was having to retcon his own beliefs, right?

18:52And try to refit because he had helped William Branham launch the message cult

18:56I mean to be honest with you and he was one of the main cheerleaders in the 50s to William Branham's Elijah claims, right?

19:03and so Gordon Lindsay's

19:05Basically erased most all of his history prior to 1960 and really Christ for the nation's Gordon Lindsay

19:12Don't like to remember that anything before Christ for the nation's happened is is really the reality and that's actually the point in time when

19:19Hobart Freeman came in contact with him was before Christ for the nation's

19:23Gordon Lindsay was still a British Israelite teaching the Elijah nonsense

19:30When Hobart Freeman came into contact with him, right?

19:33And if if Hobart Freeman went to the back of his building and bought some literature that day

19:37These are the literature that would have been laying in the back at Gordon Lindsay's church for him to pick up and in here

19:44He is refitting the Elijah prophecies

19:47Which they had been using towards Branham and and repackaging them for what they're gonna do with them in the future at that point in time

19:53So again another very interesting thing that you know, Hobart Freeman would have got a hold of right there

19:58I feel sorry for the people trying to follow us today. They're just so many ins and outs to all of this

20:06some of which we know and some of which we are speculating about

20:10But I'm a hundred percent in agreement that there are some deep connections here

20:16We've just got to root them out

20:19you know Hobart in telling his

20:221966 Dallas story he didn't preface it with anything and he didn't say anything after but obviously

20:29No, he didn't just spin a dial and say I think I'll go to Dallas, Texas. There was a reason for that

20:35How he found out about Kenneth Hagen or Gordon Lindsay or William Branham, you know, I don't know

20:42but another part of that story that he tells is I

20:46Know Kenneth Hagen was the main speaker and Hobart said he said I was right on the front row

20:52You know, here's a cardiac patient. He had just suffered a serious serious heart attack in January of that year

21:00Part of that's what precipitated

21:02His being open to receiving the charismatic experience

21:07One of his colleagues former colleagues at Grace Seminary was dr. John Ray and John Ray

21:14Who had been a teacher there at Grace?

21:17Had received he and his wife the Holy Spirit baptism just prior to this and was so very interested in sharing and was able to

21:24Share that with dr. Freeman and at that time. Dr. Freeman was you know

21:29He'd hit a low point in his life and he was willing, you know to listen to what?

21:33Dr. Ray said so he ended up down there in Dallas and he tells also he said I was on the front row with my

21:40Tape player recording and with my pen and notebook. So here is a seminary trained

21:45highly educated a degree in Old Testament in Hebrew

21:49Listening to these charismatic guys up on stage and I'm sure it was just it was brand new to dr

21:55Freeman and probably pretty wild but he was in it

21:59110% he said the first day I

22:02Looked at that guy up there and said what in the world is this all about the second day?

22:07I said I want this and the third day it had already been prophesied. It was mine

22:13That's the way he tells a story. So over a three-day period

22:17He had also now been

22:20prophesied over and given some

22:22Splinter at least of this in time message and it did involve healing it definitely involved the Prophet Elijah

22:30and

22:31as you listen to

22:33Hobart's teachings Wow, it's

22:37It's elitism. It's

22:39anti-denominational ism

22:42heavy heavy heavy

22:44It's the end could happen at any time

22:46John and I did one on the urgency of this whole message where in early 70s Hobart saying visions have been given to God's

22:53Saints that we see the pages of the calendars of the 1970s and by the time we get to the end

22:59It's just flittering in the breeze, you know

23:01we don't have much time left and

23:03That was hammered into the people now

23:05He dialed that back as he went on as you got out of the 70s

23:08You have to dial it back because that was obviously a false vision or false prophecy

23:13But the hundred and forty-four thousand the overcomers a man-child the manifestation of the sons of God

23:21Yeah

23:23You you and I Charles have corresponded some recently all the topics all of them. Yeah all of them

23:31Hobart repeated this the thing I thought about Hobart and the thing that made him so

23:36Attractive to so many people is as

23:39As each generation has come along. He seemed as though he was able to purify quote-unquote

23:45some of the weird or some of the extreme or some of the whatever elements of it and the other thing was unlike these others

23:53He did have a a doctoral degree in theology. So he was a trained

23:59Biblical scholar. He wrote a major textbook that is still in print today an introduction of the Old Testament

24:05Prophets which was published by Moody Press

24:08You know, he would he was a scholar and did good work

24:12But he did imbibe on some of this weird stuff and even though he was trying to purify it

24:18I don't think he was successful, you know, I would agree with that assessment

24:22I've got so I've had a I've had people email me who they knew the Branham connection. They agreed with me a hundred percent

24:29I've also had some skeptics from Faith Assembly reach out to me and they're saying there's no way

24:34There's a Branham connection. You've probably got the same and heard the same and you're meeting with them

24:39I think what people miss is the fact that

24:43Not every cult leader

24:46Starts from their inception thinking. Hey, I'm gonna create a cult and I'm going to destroy the lives of several people in my church

24:54Instead they actually believe what it is that they're getting into and I see the Freeman trip to Christ for the nations as that

25:01I think he was truly seeking something. He went there like Charles mentioned I can confirm

25:08Just like Charles said through the timeline. These guys were Branham ites through and through in

25:141966

25:151966 is the same year that TL Osborne who is you know partnered with Hagen and the Word of Faith teaching the prosperity gospel

25:23TL Osborne called William Branham God in the flesh in

25:271966 so you've got Freeman going into this cult and he doesn't know what it is

25:33but these guys are worshiping William Branham some of them and

25:37like Charles said

25:39the British Israel teaching the Christian identity

25:42Gordon Lindsay was a leader in the Christian identity movement at the point in which it had turned racist

25:49I've got confirmations of this on my website

25:52Which explains some of the themes the 144,000 all of these, you know trying to restore ancient Israel into modern

26:00Christianity Gordon Lindsay was a big part of this

26:02and

26:04Remember these guys had turned it into a circus act that was breaking in billions of dollars

26:09So when Branham died, they wanted to know okay, where's the next circus going to form?

26:14That's the same year that the shepherding movement emerged and you had

26:18Arne Baxter who was part of the Branham?

26:21He was a campaign manager before Gordon Lindsay or with Gordon Lindsay

26:25Arne Baxter helped start the shepherding movement

26:28What I see happening is they did lay hands

26:31I would agree with your history that they did lay hands on Hobart Freeman and elevated him into this position

26:38But I think they were trying to figure out who's going to be

26:42The next headlining act like Branham was and here's a guy right from not 10 miles from William Branham's Church

26:49Who's now getting into this thing? I wonder if he's the next one and then I don't think they chose him

26:55I think it went off into

26:56neo-charismatics

26:58Yeah, well you mentioned TL Osborne

27:00I could also give time stamps on Hobart's tapes where he definitely says TL Osborne is an apostle

27:07So surely, I mean, dr. Freeman showed up at that meeting not knowing he didn't know these characters or if he knew him

27:13He just you know, barely had any information and you know, maybe Charles he had heard the name William Branham

27:19But yeah, we've got a picture a guy showing up totally out of his element and he's saying, you know

27:25The grandfather of the word of faith movement Kenneth Hagan and so, you know in in between these

27:30These sessions you're congregating and talking with other people and these people are saying yeah, that's brother Hagan, you know

27:37Blah blah blah and that's TL and and then they talked about TL Osborne and you need to know about William Branham and you didn't know

27:44Brother Branham. Well, you know, he just died, you know what four months ago. So Hobart's got to be thinking, you know, wow

27:51Look at all of this stuff happening and I've had my head buried in a in a Hebrew textbook

27:57and here's what I've been missing out on over all these years and

28:01You guys have mentioned the the subject of race

28:05Relations several times

28:07Dr. Freeman was very well known and you probably don't know this but he did two messages

28:12They were on his old. This is the last tape list that came out one month after his death. It's January of

28:221985 and there's

28:251157 of his messages on that list all of which are online by the way and all of which I've heard

28:31Many times and have tried to categorize them but tapes number 423 and 424

28:39God's answer to the racial problems part 1 and part 2

28:44So he was delving into everything. He might have heard something

28:50About this this the race issue and

28:54In in the movement and might have objected to that and so put out his own

29:00Messages on what he thought the Bible taught in that area

29:05Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern?

29:11Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain

29:14Charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation

29:18You can learn this and more on William Branham historical researches website

29:23William dash Branham org on the books page of the website

29:27You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley

29:32Stephen Montgomery John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book

29:39You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements

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30:04I know in our churches, we would have said the answer to the race problem is segregation

30:08Isn't that terrible? I don't know. I'm not sure what mr. Holt Hobart Freeman would have said

30:13It's really fascinating to me that

30:17Hobart Freeman what came from a reformed background. He is one of only two preachers

30:21I am aware of that ever came into the message from a reformed background or a you know, kind of a Baptist

30:27That's not normal

30:28Are we normally most all the early ministry came either out of Pentecostalism or Methodist churches?

30:35Reform background is a very unusual background to come into the message from

30:40And so I that brings with it

30:43I think a unique flavor perhaps that may be colored the way that he evolved

30:48The teachings of the message the teachings of the latter rain movement

30:51So I find that really fascinating one thing you said I I know in an earlier

30:59Podcast was that

31:01One of his early famous sermons was Nebuchadnezzar's dream

31:06Nebuchadnezzar's dream was also

31:08Raymond Jackson's famous sermon the you know, the founder of Faith Assembly here is where it was published

31:14This is from 1972, but he actually preached this at the Branham Tabernacle. Why Branham was still living

31:20and

31:21Made a big a big splash out of that

31:25Let me show you a few other things that our Faith Assembly was teaching again

31:28Just see if any of this rings bells for the listeners

31:31So here is a front page of our a latter rain

31:35Contender that we published this is from I believe

31:391970

31:401970

31:41You know the latter rain

31:43Here I have on the back side of it a reprint of 1971 manifested sons of God

31:50Let me read you. Let me read you the

31:53Just the headline out of this manifested sons of God

31:56And this is again from the printed voice of Faith Assembly 1971 Raymond Jackson

32:05Manifestations of the sons of God when where and how has been a topic much discussed by Holy Ghost believers

32:11Be accompanied by a miraculous end time

32:15Revival by powerful demonstrations of the Holy Spirit

32:17What will produce these sons as taught by certain teachers the hundred and forty four thousand of Revelation 7 and 14?

32:23Are these the manifested sons? If not, who does the scripture proclaim to be the manifested sons?

32:28What does the role of adoption the Holy Spirit and resurrection play in this magnificent role of God's

32:35Manifested producing these manifested sons. He goes on to say that this is something that's soon to happen. I don't know if that's a again

32:43That's something

32:45interesting

32:47This is another one that was published. This is from 1969. Who are the hundred and forty four thousand?

32:53there's a

32:54Topic of that coming out of our churches

32:57Another one. I think that was a common latter rain theme the perfection of the Saints

33:02Which is all about essentially becoming manifested sons of God, right?

33:06the body of Christ

33:08This one will be from let's see. This is from July 1974. This was certainly being taught

33:14Let's be the first time was probably printed

33:16But this is all about how the body of Christ will come together and be you know, the perfect manifestation of Christ on earth

33:23The choosing of a bride

33:26You know, it was all about the bride was going to be you know, the bride is the elite faction of Christians

33:33that

33:35Make up the end time church elite that is going to have all of these manifestations and stuff. So I just share those

33:42to

33:43the world and

33:45You know if you're in hobert freeman's faith assembly

33:47I'm, just curious do any of those topics ring a bell and what are the odds that these?

33:52Predate hobert freeman's own sermons on these topics

33:56um

33:57Or you know, we're right along in the same time frame

34:00I I have a feeling that we're going to see a very strong overlap here and what we have to remember

34:05Obviously is that branham predates freeman?

34:09So if anybody is copying from anybody, we know what direction it has to go

34:13So let me answer some of those questions charles tape number 530 is entitled nebuchadnezzar's dream

34:20It was taught in 1970

34:23It was the first in a series that dr. Freeman was doing in a house meeting at that time

34:28This was pre glory barn days a series on the book of daniel

34:33The subject of adoption he taught on that a lot

34:37And I just thought it was and there is definitely a bible teaching on adoption

34:42But I never heard anybody teach on adoption before and he stressed it that we're not

34:48We're not naturally born sons of god. We are sons of god by adoption

34:53And I knew

34:54That he had to have been getting that kind of emphasis from somewhere

34:58So anyway, he did a series in the book of romans in 1975

35:03tape number

35:04725 which dealt with romans 8 14 to 17 is simply entitled adoption

35:11and

35:12We have mentioned john that particular message before simply because it's on that tape

35:19That he he deals with the fact that alice rogers had just died in childbirth

35:25That was one of the earliest deaths there at faith assembly that brought some health department attention

35:31And it just happened to be on that tape

35:34of adoption as far as

35:37You know the deeper life. He was famous for his book deeper life in the spirit

35:42and the whole thing of the whole

35:45thrust of this book emphasis of that book is

35:48Is to become a matured son of god the crucified life to die out to self

35:54So that you can be prepared to be

35:58Part of that end time army and this is something that john and I haven't gotten to in our own podcast yet

36:04But I really want to spend some time with once we get through the chronology

36:09Hobart was known

36:11As a faith teacher faith and healing. I mean, that's what he hung his hat on but the entire

36:18Goal

36:19Of the ministry and he would say it over and over and over

36:23You know, we're learning these things about faith people. We're learning this about healing

36:27This is all just in preparation for what it's that end time army

36:33And he would talk about romans 8 and he'd say don't be afraid to say it. It's in the bible

36:39Don't be and I thought you know, I had come from a presbyterian non-charismatic background. I didn't know what romans 8 was talking about

36:46And you'd get over there and it actually does use the term the the creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of god

36:53So what these cult leaders do rather than exegete that passage, you know word by word in its narrow

37:01Context in its broader context

37:04They know that they've used a scriptural term

37:07Manifestation of the sons of god and so what the what the dumb sheep do is they see it and go? Oh, yeah

37:13Well, I guess it does teach the man. Well, it does teach the manifestation of the sons of god, but not your version of it

37:20You know not your version of it and that's the problem with all of these cults and that was something I tried to

37:27That I actually did some messages on actually hobart's wife

37:31June freeman ended up with a copy of my series of messages against

37:37Uh, well, it was really on what hobart taught greater works ministry. John 14 12

37:42Because I go to the father the works that I do you will do also in greater works in these

37:47And he would teach on that tie that into romans 8

37:51That we are just waiting for the greater works ministry to unfold

37:55And then he would occasionally describe, you know, what the greater works ministry was going to be like, but it involved emptying the hospitals

38:02going to

38:03Into the psychiatric wards laying hands on everyone

38:07emptying the psychiatric wards

38:10and literally

38:11You know bringing revival to the whole world and that's not at all what romans 8 is talking about

38:18it's in a totally different time context, but

38:21the the

38:23manchild

38:24tied into the overcomers

38:26tied into the

38:28144 000

38:30Tied into john 14 12 the greater works ministry tied into romans 8 the manifestation of the sons of god

38:38That was hobart doctrine at its core

38:42Where they were headed and why all of this biblical training was necessary

38:47That's really fascinating and and what you're describing there is not just the teachings of the message

38:52The message has a variation of that what you're described

38:54It's this is the broader latter rain teachings that came out of the entire latter rain movement and all the different factions of it

39:02What have their varieties and what you're describing is actually slightly more aligned to the sharon orphanage branch

39:10Um than the message branch, right?

39:12And so I would say, you know, he's probably getting

39:15it would make sense, you know, especially if he's with gordon lindsey because a lot of them kind of they

39:19They angled back that way a bit after after branham

39:23died

39:24um

39:25The message takes a lot of those exact same themes that instead of to the world it becomes isolated

39:31It's just to the special cult and then we're the elite and all everybody else is gonna all get to burn up and we'll we'll be

39:36The survivors that then rule, you know, but it's the same thing except it's not going to be a global revival for everybody else

39:43It's just gonna be for us, right?

39:45um

39:45But yeah, the the same themes it's really fascinating how each of these groups they take the same concepts the same core elements

39:54That came up here in the latter rain movement and they just kind of spun it

39:59In their own unique little way their own unique, you know is maybe 10 or 15 different

40:04and that 10 or 15 difference gives their leader the you know, the

40:08The wherewithal to say I alone have the special understanding. I alone have the truth, right?

40:15Everyone else they just have shades of the truth

40:17But we have the hundred percent and if you want this manifestation, you're going to need the hundred percent

40:22You need you need what I got

40:24And you know they put themselves into that special category because they have the right

40:30Interpretation or the right way to look at these teachings

40:34They all do the same thing no matter which group you look at it and it's it's fascinating, but it's also sad

40:40It's sad for the people in there

40:42um

40:43And I I think all of us that lived most of our lives in these groups

40:48Can can look back with a lot of sorrow on the turmoil that caused our lives to wake up from that

40:54Terrible hold that it had on us

40:56Yeah in the very early days hobart mentioned all of the people we have discussed favorably

41:01You can go on any of the tapes from 70 to 74

41:06and the tl osborne or

41:09You know ff bosworth smith wigglesworth was a he was a huge fan of his and dowey and tommy hicks and gordon lindsey

41:17and

41:18um, just all of these people katherine coolman

41:22Anna schrader claire grace, he mentioned all of them favorably because he had gleaned some stuff from them

41:31but when you get to the end of the 70s and especially by the 80s, you know hobart was

41:36Unambiguous in saying that god had given the full end time message to one person only

41:44And he began and that was him

41:47And he would never say and i'm the one he would just say

41:50Well, I don't think we need to say any more than that, you know, he was a master

41:54Of speaking out of both sides of his mouth

41:56um, and he he was a very skilled communicator

42:00Occasionally and it's not happening as often as it used to but everyone

42:05Who still wanted to follow hobart would blame?

42:09The people on misinterpreting hobart and my response to that was hobart was a skilled communicator

42:16He didn't have any problem communicating exactly what he wanted to get across

42:20He knew what he wanted to get across and he knew he had succeeded in it. So I never wanted to hear. Oh people misinterpreted

42:28There's not any way to misinterpret the things that hobart taught. He taught it so often

42:33He taught it so thoroughly and he and he and he taught it from a you know from a a background of a very skilled

42:41um speaker

42:43I had a woman that I talked to by the way last night who was a member from way back in pre glory barn day

42:49She said she was actually there

42:51It's at the lower level when they still met

42:53They're like 50 of them that met down in the bottom of the glory barn

42:56They hadn't remodeled the top and it was just a coffee shop area and then in 72 they spent money in remodeling

43:03So she said we went from 50 people

43:06Downstairs to 250 because we could hold 200 upstairs and every summer. She said it was like

43:12Next summer 400 next summer 600 we were just growing and growing and growing

43:16But she she said hey, I have one objection to something. You've been saying cheno on the podcast

43:22And and she's totally right. She said you've made the comment maybe more than once that this that hobart's ministry

43:30Really attracted, you know the working class the non

43:35um the non-college educated and I really believe that

43:3980 or

43:4185 or 90 probably were that

43:44but there was an element of

43:47Educated people with degrees with professional jobs. This woman and her husband were two of them

43:53Who were attracted to hobart's ministry?

43:57Because he was a college professor a seminary graduate level teacher

44:01And because he was skilled in the biblical languages and because he was just skilled in communicating the message

44:08You know william branham came across as this, you know, i'm just i'm everything I have is obviously divine from heaven

44:15Because I don't have any education

44:17that's one way to present it and be very convincing because people go wow if this guy who doesn't have

44:23Formal education knows this it there must have been an angel that appeared to him

44:28But then there's another group of people if they can hear that same teaching come from an ex-graduate level professor

44:36Well, nobody that smart would have bought into anything this dumb so he has to be right, you know

44:42So it's just an interesting connection between hobart and william branham

44:47On their educational backgrounds and yet they were able to very successfully teach the same message

44:54I would actually argue that the people who are smarter are more susceptible to it because

44:59The people who are working with their minds from monday through saturday

45:04By sunday their minds are tired, you know

45:06If you're if you're a carpenter and you're swinging a hammer your arm gets tired by the end of the week

45:11You got arrested well people who work with their minds. They have to rest their minds

45:14And so what happens is they go into church on sunday

45:18Totally shut off all critical thought because this is a safe place. I can shut off my mind

45:23And then they get assimilated by the cult group

45:27I'm curious what the worship style was like

45:29Yeah, you know at hobart freeman's church and i'll just kind of describe our faith assemblies our faith assemblies have ecstatic worship

45:36You know singing shouting dancing running jumping sometimes

45:40People speak in tongues. There's lots of manifestations of the you know, the gifts of the spirit

45:46Uh where there's personal prophecy where there is tongues interpretation where there's discernments

45:53There's I do all these in air quotes, you know, if someone's listening online

45:56Uh, because I look back now and some of it I I think was definitely um a scam

46:01But you know, we had lots of that and it was very common throughout our churches

46:05um

46:06It's going all the way back, you know to the to the 50s. I

46:11Faith assembly indiana northern indiana would be similar charles. I have seen videos of some pentecostal churches where I mean it is literally

46:20From running the aisles to swinging from the chandeliers to riding on a camel's back

46:25None of that stuff happened at at faith assembly

46:29There would not even really be any dancing or jigs, but it would definitely be very lively worship hands lifted up

46:36uh clapping

46:38Um, definitely manifestation of the gifts of the spirit

46:42Um, and I think some of that was definitely valid but I think some of it, you know, I would I would definitely question

46:49Um, so it it was definitely a lively kind of worship service

46:53It became a little more

46:56Grave as they went along

46:57I don't know if that was just due to hobart's influence or just due to the fact that it's not as new for the people

47:03anymore

47:04um, but they were pretty well known for

47:08Having a real I mean, I don't want to really say anything critical about that a real beautiful worship service

47:14And the worship leader was jerry irvin

47:17And jerry goes back, you know to the when it was in hobart's church hobart's home rather in claypool in 1966

47:24He had dated hobart's middle daughter. Kathy for a year and a half

47:29And he ended up being the worship leader there in the home

47:32Then they moved to a three-car garage at his house and they moved to the glory barn

47:37And he was the worship leader to the end and I just had an hour and 16 minute conversation with jerry last week or week before

47:45and everybody

47:46Everybody who knows faith assembly

47:48Um, they're gonna they're gonna have problems with a number of the ministers, but nobody ever had a problem with jerry

47:54He was just a beautiful brother still is he's invited me to come up and spend a few nights at his house

47:59So we can talk about things in the past and I think I probably need to take him up on that

48:04He's just a wonderful christian man

48:06kind gentle spirit

48:08Beautiful voice, you know ability to play the guitar

48:12Um, everybody has fond memories of brother jerry

48:16Oh, that's interesting. So it sounds like, you know, kind of a typical charismatic

48:19A sort of a worship service pentecostal. Yeah. Yeah, we we were the same way in that way as well. So

48:26um, very interesting

48:28I had mentioned earlier and you had followed up a little on lester sumrall. Did he play a major part in your movement?

48:36Oh, absolutely. You can find him on the voice of healing

48:40Um magazine publications he

48:43he's quoted supporting william brannum and they even mentioned his defense of william brannum in the

48:50Assemblies of god. He was definitely a brannomite through and through

48:54Well, here's an interesting connection. Hobart had three daughters pam. Kathy and becky

48:59And they were all married to a minister. Pam was married to steve. Kathy was married to bruce

49:05And becky the baby girl was married to dave freeman

49:09And dave freeman was a pilot and one of the reasons he got

49:14kicked out of faith assembly

49:17in the

49:18Mid 1970s hobart's faith assembly was because of his association

49:24with lester sumrall

49:26Lester sumrall needed a pilot and dave freeman

49:30Who was a pilot?

49:33Signed up to fly him to a lot of his meetings

49:37Well, lester sumrall had connections to kenneth hagan and kenneth copeland and these people teaching that jesus died spiritually the jds heresy

49:45And so that was an absolute

49:47Taboo, dr. Freeman was getting ready to write a book about the jds heresy that didn't come out until the

49:551980s, but he was addressing it in the 1970s

49:58So to have any connection with lester sumrall was a no-no and that would be his youngest daughter's husband

50:05Was the pilot for lester sumrall. So how about that?

50:09Wow

50:10and one other connection to

50:13Gordon, lindsey charles you have correctly

50:16Mentioned that christ for the nations didn't come on the scene until the 1970s and I had forgotten that

50:22um

50:23When I went to the minister's meeting in indiana a month ago

50:29One of the ministers there ex-faith assembly ministers

50:33Who no longer, you know supports and agrees with all of hobart's take on everything's who has chosen a better path of ministry

50:41But early on this would have been I can't give you the year

50:45I don't know when christ for the nations began

50:47But I would say he told me 71 or 72 or 73 somewhere along there

50:52He took a year off in indiana and went to christ for the nations, you know to get a bible education

51:00And he said he was sitting there in the audience

51:03The day that gordon lindsey died up on stage. He said I saw all that happen. So here's another connection

51:11Between you know a faith assembly minister who was down there in the early 70s to get you know a year

51:18Degree from a bible institute or whatever and witnessed the death of gordon lindsey on the stage

51:24Well guys, this has been incredibly fun. There's been so many connections and I know we'll never have all the answers. I know that

51:31People who have escaped the faith assembly both faith assembly cults interestingly

51:36Both are going to be watching this interested to see is there any direct connection but

51:41It's like everything else with that. We've examined in brannomism and everything connected

51:47It is such a complicated mess to try to understand that there is no black or white answers

51:53there is

51:54What I call it is basically there's this

51:57There's this influence that just happens

52:00Because of people being connected and hearing hearing a thing that they enjoy or like

52:06And then they'll integrate it into their ministry and they study it more

52:10Kind of like you you mentioned with the adoption and the manifested sons of god

52:14that was a theme through brannom's ministry starting in the early 50s all the way through 1965 and

52:21brannom's version of adoption was

52:23that

52:24um

52:25basically, the manifested sons of god will be adopted as the

52:28the elite sons of god essentially, which I think that's

52:33Somewhat similar to what hobart freeman taught but there's there's so many connections and it doesn't come from one source

52:40so these people just kind of learn it by being together and that's what we have that's

52:45That's that's the purpose of this podcast to share that but thank you for doing this with us. Jeno

52:50Oh, you're welcome. Glad to be a part of it

52:53And charles always good to hear from you if you haven't already by charles's book come out of her my people

52:59But thank you for thank you for entertaining me as a referee between you two charles

53:04I've enjoyed chatting with you and uh, cheno a great episode today. John and you know, you're right

53:10I mean we we may never you know fully be able to understand just exactly how our faith assemblies might have been related but

53:17I think it's clear. We all branch from the latter rain movement in some way or another and we're all following just our own

53:25Take on the same latter rain ideology

53:28So again, just just fascinating stuff to consider and you know for people maybe that were in uh, hobart freeman's faith assembly

53:35Maybe the shock of seeing another faith assembly teaching the same things that you never heard of

53:40Might uh might help jar the mind awake a little bit

53:43I think that's really what this does because I as we've talked earlier everybody

53:47When you're new in your own group, you think your group is unique. It's unique. It's special

53:53It's a it's sui generis. It didn't come from any other location. It came to this minister

53:59And just by virtue of the fact that we can make these connections

54:04That should cause everyone just to maybe not give up what you believe, but you've got to pause

54:09I mean if you're intellectually honest, you've got to pause

54:12And say how how is this happening? How is this possible?

54:17That's what it always did for me. And that's what I hope it will do for other people

54:21Yeah, I agree take a step back and it doesn't even if you're in a healthy church

54:25It doesn't hurt to examine what you're in if it's a healthy church

54:28It's going to come out as a healthy church in your examination

54:32I've been this morning. I've been exchanging emails with the lady who's in

54:36kenya

54:37They're having a trial of a mass cult suicide hundreds and hundreds of people who starve themselves to death in kenya

54:46and it was a result of this latter rain movement and they

54:50they isolated themselves in this forest and among the prized possessions that they brought with them into the

54:57Into this compound that they had in the forest was this whole array of branham books

55:03so this is directly, you know directly connected and

55:07If people can go to that extreme we've seen that with jonestown. We see it again with kenya

55:12It can happen to you examine the church you're in i'm not saying it's a bad church, but does not hurt to examine it

55:19but

55:20Thank you guys

55:21If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web

55:25You can find us at william-branham.org

55:28For an overview of the historical research of william branham and the healing revivals

55:32You can read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of william branham and his message available on amazon kindle and audible

56:02So

56:32You

Faith Assembly: Hobart Freeman's Version of Branhamism? - Episode 189 Branham Research Podcast

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