Chris Reed and Morningstar - Episode 184 Branham Research Podcast - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K  John and Brantley take a deep dive into the connections between IHOP KC (International House of Prayer Kansas City) and the New Apostolic Reformation. They emphasize the importance of "detangling" these movements, particularly in light of recent scandals involving prominent figures like Mike Bickle and Chris Reed. The conversation highlights the manipulation and abuse of power within these circles, drawing parallels to William Branham's influence and the broader Pentecostal and charismatic movements. As the discussion progresses, they explore how these leaders often deflect responsibility, manipulate followers through prophetic claims, and maintain control over their narratives.  The latter part of the podcast delves into specific incidents involving Chris Reed and the fallout at MorningStar Ministries, led by Rick Joyner. The hosts critically analyze how these ministries handle allegations of misconduct, often prioritizing the reputation of the leaders over the well-being of the victims. They stress the importance of skepticism, encouraging listeners to critically evaluate the teachings and actions of these leaders. The podcast closes with advice for those affected by these movements, emphasizing the need for external support and the dangers of isolating oneself within such environments.  00:00 Introduction   02:09 The Role of IHOP KC in the New Apostolic Reformation   05:08 The Mike Bickle Scandal and Its Impact   09:04 Chris Reed's Resignation from MorningStar Ministries   15:05 Connections Between Chris Reed and William Branham's Movement   21:04 Prophetic Manipulation and Its Consequences   27:03 MorningStar's Response to Allegations Against Chris Reed   34:04 The Culture of Suppression in Branham's Movement   40:02 The Role of Power Dynamics in Abuse Cases   44:54 Rick Joyner's Defense and Image Management   50:02 Advice for Victims and Followers in These Movements   56:04 Conclusion and Final Thoughts ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00You

00:30Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast

00:36I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham historical research at William

00:43Branham org and with me I have my co-host and friend Brantley Smith former member of

00:49International House of Prayer and together we are

00:52detangling I hop KC and the new apostolic Reformation

00:57So Brantley, this is our I guess you'd call it our kickoff episode we've

01:02had you I had you on to tell your story and

01:05then had you a second time because we had some topics of interest and you used the word detangling and I

01:12thought you know and I'll

01:14For the audience, I'll embarrass myself and say you I won't even tell you the amount of time

01:20I spent trying to trying to distinguish the definition of detangling versus untangling and see which word was better

01:29but

01:30Anyway, I thought I'd be better. I landed on detangling instead of deconstruction because I used the deconstruction word

01:37I all of a sudden became prime target in the sides

01:41Yeah, you know, it's funny whenever I use the word

01:45deconstruction or

01:47You know, there's D churchification anytime I use one of these words I get all kinds of hate mail and hate comments

01:52But anyway, I thought it'd be a good idea if we tried to detangle I hop KC and I know it's a movement

02:00that's still going so it's

02:02It's not like we're coming in after the fact

02:04But there are a lot of people who are escaping and I thought it might be helpful if we you know

02:09focus on what it was how it came to be and all of that, but

02:13More than that

02:15it really was the framework that helped develop and shape the New Apostolic Reformation as it exists today and there are other

02:23events like the one that will bring up today that

02:27You know, it's so similar. You can't say that it's directly related, but it's so similar

02:32You have to take a step back and try to detangle the the mingling of the two

02:38Scenario situations and try to understand what's happening. So anyway

02:43Welcome as co-host man

02:45Thanks, John. Thanks. No, this has been really fun. First two episodes were fun

02:50And and I've been getting a lot of great feedback on it, too

02:55And that's my hope that not just with people who are still still in I hop KC might stumble upon this at some point as a

03:02resource

03:04But also those who were out of the community I hear all the time

03:09When people get out that they just for ten years, they just put everything on hold they didn't address spirituality they didn't address

03:17what they experienced at I hop KC and so to

03:22Discuss some of my journey my experiences what I've observed

03:27Over the past, you know decade or so

03:31I

03:33Think that it's helpful for people. I think to hear language given to it and to hear things named

03:39and so I hope that we can do a lot of that for people and and that people are able to

03:46detangle

03:49Absolutely, you know, it's funny one of the things that I have found that help people escape the most

03:54And this is not just with I hop KC or with a brand a message

03:59but literally every cult in existence if you take a person who is not the central figure and

04:05Just restate what the central figure is saying or what the doctrine is or what their message what they're standing for

04:12Just Reese simply restate it in the same way that they advertise it people are like, oh my gosh

04:19This is this is crazy stuff man

04:21Get me out of here and the cult start attacking you when you restate the things that they're saying

04:28That's the irony of all of this. They they think you're just you know

04:32You're you're slamming them. You're mocking them, whatever

04:35But if you just simply tell people what it is, they're supposed to believe you scratch your heads and think wait a minute

04:41Am I really supposed to believe that?

04:44It's all so so much of it and I think that's why I wanted to have the conversation that we're gonna have today

04:51I saw so much of it. Not only personally during the I hop KC scandal crisis that happened last year

04:59with the the CYA behavior

05:03That happened

05:05There was a real iconic moment for all of us that's imprinted on our heads the day that the allegations were brought to the

05:13community there

05:15Against Mike Bickle last year and they were very vague in what they said. They said that there had been allegations

05:23I can't I can't recall at this point even if they said that they were sexual

05:27But there were allegations of misconduct and and one of the former leaders

05:32Stood up and he used profanity and I don't know if you allow that

05:35But he pretty much stood up and said that it's righteous BS is what he said right there in the middle of the whole church

05:43That it's that's well-intended righteous BS and

05:47I think that moment right there was was a catalytic moment for for a lot of people

05:54Because we saw somebody else that we esteemed in that movement set there and call their bluff on it and and tell us that there

06:00Was more going on?

06:01Than what they were letting on and and I think that that you know allows people to to see through the fog

06:07Yeah, we don't allow the term BS on this show instead

06:11I try to use the phrase in a our prophecy because really both are the same

06:18Looks like it smells like it it might be

06:23Yeah, it's you know when you take a step back from all of this it I had a

06:28Did an episode with Charles? I don't know if it'll air before or after this, but we were talking about the deliverance ministries and

06:36I got my I got my hands on a handbook of training of said deliverance ministers

06:44And oh my gosh, man

06:45The stuff in there if you if you're not wrapped up in it if your heads not indoctrinated and you look at this

06:51You're like this is some crazy stuff, man

06:54It's like one step away from Dungeons and Dragons for adults

06:58I

07:02Hop never got too weird with the the naming of spirits and and things like that that happened in some charismatic circles

07:10But but it really does it starts feeling more like a LARPing than it does

07:15Anything helpful

07:18Yeah, so there's so many things that we could talk about on this series so I'm gonna call it detangling I hop Casey and

07:27you know if if you are a member of I hop Casey and you were

07:31Indoctrinated in this and you want us to talk about something. There's a specific topic. Just send it to us. You can email me

07:40Actually can go to the website

07:42William dash Branham org and click on the contact button and just send me a send me a message and I will

07:49add it to our list of things that we can talk about but

07:52Today we you know, they're there are things that we have to be careful because we need to do it in tastefully

07:58But today they're I want to say it was last week

08:03There was a big event that happened in charismatic Christianity that there are some links back to the Branham ism

08:11And some links to I hop KC that I'll let you introduce it Brantley, but the topic is significant

08:17So approximately about a week ago

08:21Chris Reed all of the star when Chris Reed

08:24Resigned from Morningstar ministries in Fort Mill, South Carolina pretty abruptly

08:29I don't think that a lot of us had to had seen that coming and heard rumors, but

08:36I hop KC people are very familiar with Chris because he was the one who came in and spoke to the

08:41Congregation immediately after Mike Bickles allegations went public

08:45He was actually with Mike

08:47when the allegations went public

08:50Whenever Sam Storms and Francis Chan were turned away when they showed up at Mike's house to confront him

08:56so Chris

08:58Became a prominent figure in in that whole debacle. His message was

09:03Not to look back but to only look forward that there's greater things in front of you than that lie behind you

09:10which is a

09:13Way of damage control image management. Hey this terrible thing that Mike did let's move on. Let's forget it

09:20He he told people that they don't want to be like lots wife and look backwards and turn into a pillar of salt

09:27and so that was our

09:30The former IHOP members who hadn't been around recently. That was our introduction to Chris Reed

09:35and Chris

09:37From my understanding took over

09:40Morningstar

09:41or came to Morningstar in 21 and

09:45with the intentions of him becoming

09:48The president and CEO of Morningstar Ministries and so that that person up to that point had been Rick Joyner and

09:55Rick

09:57Has ties to the Kansas City Prophets

09:59So he was he was one of the guys that ran around with them the ones we talked about frequently or Bob Jones and Paul

10:04Kane who were the two prominent figureheads

10:06But Rick Joyner was a part of that crew as well

10:09one of the things always struck me odd that really isn't anything of substance, but is

10:14That in the in the five years that was I hopped on at Rick Joyner

10:17I think I saw him one time pop up there. So there wasn't a whole lot of

10:22Direct cross-pollination

10:25Like there was with Bethel Church in California and other houses of prayer and where we had a whole lot more overlap

10:34But Chris Reed also I think is significant. Have you seen the video of Paul Kane praying for Chris Reed?

10:40Yeah, I've seen it it's you know, and if you understand what's being said, it looks like very much like the passing of a mantle

10:47Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say I'm curious your thoughts on it

10:50Cuz the one thing that I don't think I've watched the video in its entirety. I think I've seen a clip of it

10:56and and how he

10:58Almost seemed like he might have been taking a shot at you John that

11:01They were they were talking about all the lies that have been spread about William Branham and all these things and that they would only

11:07Remember the good things almost it seems like what kind of what the prayer was

11:13Yeah, there's some I've not talked about it much and still I think I'm going to be a little bit reserved

11:18I don't I don't want to show all my cards at the moment, but

11:21there was a point in time in which

11:25It was about the time that I started to publish the

11:29connections between

11:31William Branham and the

11:33High-ranking officials of the Ku Klux Klan and I still haven't really gone as deep as I could there

11:39there are some things in there that

11:42Would blow people's minds and blow people's heads some of which is it goes beyond even the Klan?

11:48There's there's a little bit of risk in saying everything

11:51but you've got

11:54You know in my my book preacher behind the white hoods I talk about the the unusual

12:01connections to the Kennedy assassination not saying that these guys assassinated Kennedy or anything like this, but

12:07You've got you know, William Branham's mentor is right there in the Oak Cliff

12:13Subdivision in Dallas and he's the what was he president?

12:18I think of the Oak Cliff White Citizens Council something like this

12:21He was he was so well known in Dallas that if you were in Dallas and you're watching the news you're listening the radio

12:27You're gonna hear his name

12:29This is the mentor of William Branham and you have people like Gordon Lindsay the head of CFN

12:34I who is also in the Oak Cliff subdivision, so they had to know each other and Lindsay is

12:40Publishing letters from the from the Imperial Wizard of the Klan in voice of healing

12:46So, you know you have to take you have to step back and just scratch your head and think wait a minute

12:51all these guys knew each other and anyway, so when I began exposing all of this I

12:57started receiving emails from Paul Cain and then phone calls and

13:02Talking to I've spoken to not just Paul Cain, but people you know on his

13:08Staff he had these he had this weird harem of men that followed him around

13:12I don't know if you know much about that, but I've heard I've heard that he's surrounded himself with male assistants and everything's like

13:19Yeah, there's there's some weirdness there

13:21But anyway, so he contacted me and I've never said this publicly, but it wasn't long after that

13:28that people who

13:31became significant in

13:33the Morningstar

13:35organization also were contacting me and they were asking me questions as

13:41Though they were

13:42Truly a person who is seeking help from one of these organizations and yet here I'm looking at the name and the person and oh

13:49My gosh, this is a ranking member of Morningstar

13:52and as I'm as I'm trying to answer questions that the the focus was on prophecy and the questions were

14:01specifically

14:02about failed prophecy

14:04So they were aware that I was publishing

14:07Information about William Branham wherein prophecies had failed and

14:11I was explaining that you know, biblically a prophet gets one chance man. It's either right or he's a false prophet

14:19There's no in-between

14:21Because if you're making stuff almost used a word that I can't use on the show if you're making stuff up

14:29You're bringing it out of me if you're making stuff up and and

14:34You know people catch you at it then you know that you're making stuff up it's that simple, you know

14:39it is really that simple and

14:41One of the examples that I used in this private communication when I was a kid and I was in this movement

14:48you were taught as

14:51As this, you know, we didn't use the word manifest sons of God, but that's essentially what it was

14:56We were taught that we could do these things and so you want to do them

15:00You want to be a prophet you want to be an apostle and I thought I was a big

15:05You know big guy and that's a big prophet that I would become one. I I never

15:10Saw myself as a prophet, but things would happen that were just a little bit odd. I would have dreams that

15:17I had no no inside information whatsoever

15:21And then I would go to the event that was in my dream and suddenly I look around and oh my gosh

15:26This is my dream and there's that thing that I saw in my dream. How did I know it was there?

15:31You know that kind of thing happens

15:32Yeah, which you know all of which is explainable and in the psyche of a human mind

15:38but at that time I thought that I was having you know, some special spiritual thing because I'm in this movement and

15:46Prophet John calling I never saw myself as that but then the problem is whenever one of them was

15:54not correct

15:56Well, then I have to take a step back and even back then I thought okay. Well this this is just a dream

16:02I have nothing spiritual whatsoever. I am NOT a prophet because I don't even claim this to be true, right?

16:08I can't I can't fake this. This is not something if God is speaking through my mouth

16:14I can't fake that he's speaking through my mouth or otherwise. I'm a fraud, right?

16:19So I was trying to explain this to one of the ranking members of Morningstar if you're saying

16:24Shh stuff that you shouldn't say

16:28Then you're probably a fraud and I didn't use that exact phrase

16:32but I I worded it nicely to the person and I said

16:37You can't make stuff up or you're a fraud in a nice way and I can't even remember how I said it

16:43But anyway, all of this was happening. So

16:46Whenever I saw the the video of Paul Cain

16:49And he's specifically talking about what you said. I knew he was talking about me

16:54and he was commissioning it it appears he was commissioning Chris to

16:59to try to get involved and then you start seeing this whole series of videos of

17:05Chris with high-ranking members of the Branham cult, which is really really odd and

17:10It was at that point. I started digging deeper into Paul Cain and came to realize that

17:16He never really left Branham's message cult. He was a message cult member until the end of his life and

17:23It at that time I had not even yet started working with Charles and

17:27When I began working with Charles Charles informed me that he was aware that

17:31Paul Cain was visiting message churches up until the end of his life. So

17:36Definitely. He was a message cult member even after helping start the Kansas City Prophets

17:42I hop KC and so you have to take a step back and think wait a minute is

17:47I hop KC message 2.0. Is it Branham ism 2.0?

17:51And I thought well, we've recently I thought we've got to get Brantley on here and detangle this

17:59It's it's it's crazy because the prophetic manipulation still still happens and that and that's a crucial part of

18:07What we see with with Chris Reed's allegations

18:12There was so so Chris Reed had his

18:15Resignation letter go public and the shorthand of that is that he felt like it was time to step away

18:21It seemed like that. There was probably some internal disagreements of some sort

18:26But that he was going to continue ministry and he listed out a laundry list of things including

18:32Overseeing a house church network and all these different things that kind of threw up red flags

18:37And after he released his resignation publicly or actually I think it was leaked publicly

18:44After that was leaked publicly Rick Joyner responded

18:48And it's since been deleted

18:51And in his response was very quick to distance himself from Chris and disapprove of Chris for his actions

18:59He referred to what?

19:01Whatever Chris was experiencing as a deceptive spirit

19:05And then he hints around it who I can only figure is probably Bob Jones and Paul Kane

19:11And how he talks about how that a deceptive spirit stole

19:15Many years, I think he does go. I think you might have no he didn't name Kane in that

19:20But he talked about that it robbed him of his ultimate purpose when referring to Kane

19:27And he said that it took ten years of effective ministry from him as well

19:33I don't know if that was a Freudian slip or

19:37Because we're not aware of any Rick Joyner moral failings that are public

19:42But he said that it cost him ten years so I'm gonna take him at his word there

19:48But he quickly deleted that statement and then we really didn't hear much besides the Roy's report articles that they have two articles

19:55Where they got some direct?

19:58quotes from Chris they released

20:01at that time

20:03Allegations of clergy sexual abuse for Chris

20:07Morningstar is not referring to it as that

20:11there was a

20:13woman who was that the way that they said it that she was a

20:17Rick said it Sunday

20:19Was that she was not a young woman. She was only a couple years younger than Chris. She was a lady a woman

20:26He said things like she the the woman who is supposedly involved

20:32and so those comments like that create create distance and

20:36Make people forget those power balances that those power imbalances that happen of

20:42Chris as someone who is a figurehead at Morningstar and this girl although she is close in age is a

20:49Student and someone who looks up and there's that power dynamic there

20:54And especially when we we see the messages and we saw that

20:59Prophecy was used in the same way that we saw it with Mike Bickle as well allegedly

21:05And that he would prophesy that his wife was going to die to people

21:09And that they were going to become his wife. That was like the golden thread prophecy. That's been alleged

21:15And been corroborated by by a handful of victims that the same thing was was said to them

21:21Chris didn't do anything

21:24that

21:25Out there of promising marriage, but he began to call her special that she was different

21:33That God had something special for her that she was more and more special than the other Morningstar students and so

21:41Unless you've been on the receiving end of a conversation like that of someone that you look up to that is someone in power and authority

21:50You don't realize how much of a sway that can have on your emotions how much that can

21:56Impact it causes a bonding to happen when you feel like someone is speaking on God's behalf to you

22:06It's it's it's a real slippery slope

22:10But it's a hundred percent prophetic manipulation

22:14Absolutely, and you know, I'm gonna speak in general terms. I'm not going to

22:18Refer specifically to any of the people under these out

22:22Sure allegations or allegations

22:24but the way that this type of the way that Branham ism worked and we see that this is a

22:30Replication of Branham ism in many many different avenues that the apostolic Reformation has taken

22:37it creates a hierarchy that is

22:41Unhealthy wherein the men are far superior to the women

22:45The women are not seen as equals even though I've heard sermons where they say

22:51Treat her like you're equal. She is your equal and then explain the hierarchy why she is not your equal. It's that bad

22:58And the men and the women don't have the same

23:02spiritual status in these things and so the women want to to find and connect to somebody who is

23:09Superior to them because they've been mentally trained to do this and whenever a predator

23:15Sees the opportunity in that setup

23:19It's literally the foundation for predators

23:22They can use that tool as a manipulation to start making them feel more

23:28You know

23:29The word special again, I'm not I'm not referring specifically to people at Morningstar

23:34But you can make them feel special and then that's the door that opens up and once that door is open

23:41It can go to you know, really really far to extremes and in the Branham cult

23:47I have seen time and again

23:49there are leaders who have fallen to things like this and the problem is because the indoctrination has made

23:58people believe that the fivefold ministry

24:01Creates an element of spiritualism over these figureheads

24:05Where they are above human whenever they do something like this whenever they prey on victims

24:11Because they're fivefold ministers it can all be erased simply by saying

24:16Oh, I did this thing in the past and therefore forgive me and put me back in the same exact position

24:23So I can do it again. That's where really I have a huge problem with this

24:28Which is an interesting point that was brought up on Sunday by Rick as well

24:34We we have laughed and called him restoration Rick

24:38Me and my friends because of what seems to be Rick Joyner specialization in restoring people

24:45to ministry

24:47He had a segment on Sunday. That was very telling

24:51in that

24:53They talked about when they learned about this relationship with this student this abuse in my opinion

25:01they they referred to it as an inappropriate relationship they referred to it as a

25:08Naivety on Chris's part

25:11a stupid decision lack of wisdom

25:14These are the words they use rather than calling it what it actually was

25:20But they it doesn't seem that Chris was really removed from any kind of position of authority for a significant amount of time

25:29Rick talks about how that the church's view of ministry is messed up and

25:35What's what's deceptive about this is that at first it sounds appealing at first it sounds

25:45Righteous until you think about how it plays out

25:48He talks about that ministry is not platforms power and position, but ministry is service

25:55It's taking up your cross. It's laying down your life for another and so in in Rick's world

26:02Ministry is necessary for restoration

26:06I think he even went as far as saying something along the lines of that like that that public ministry has been a part of

26:14Every restoration process that he has done

26:18And so like these these subtle

26:23Changing of things and not recognizing the power that is associated with the platform

26:28And the influence and the sway and trying to paint it as some kind of humble servant position when we know that's that's

26:37Farthest thing from the truth

26:39What appears to be the truth?

26:43It gets real real messy real quick because they're able to make these things go away and act like

26:49It didn't happen as you were saying

26:52They've become experts at getting people back in the limelight and we're all bracing for the day when Mike Bickle attempts it

27:00Luckily, he hasn't yet

27:04The other thing that was brought up

27:09That was very interesting and not really going through this stuff chronologically with

27:13With the service on Sunday and the stuff that Rick had said

27:16There was also another video of another former leader who had published a response to all of it

27:22because at the end of the day what they're trying to draw attention to is that the

27:29Sexual component that existed in this abuse between

27:35Chris Reid and this student

27:37was not

27:40Conveyed at the initial moment of confession

27:44Of whenever this girl first brought it to leaders

27:47So she she had talked about the text messages that had happened

27:49But she hadn't talked about any kind of physical components. And so it appears to me that what they're doing now

27:57Is is trying to discredit her and saying that it's not true because she didn't say it then

28:03You wrap in some some Matthew 18 with that that they used to control things and and Rick talked about

28:11specifically on Sunday that when someone faces

28:14Faces someone at whenever they're accusing and the accuser comes to face the person they're accusing

28:20that stories change and

28:23He's he's so close to

28:26Realizing the dynamics there of realizing that that a victim should not be facing their abuser in that kind of situation

28:35But they use these tactics I think to maintain control to be able to

28:41Hopefully

28:45Shape the way that victims respond and that the way they're perceived by the public

28:52It's that part of its horrifying did you guys have a lot of the

28:58Matthew 18 misuse because we saw with a I hop KC. Did you guys have that in the Branham?

29:04Stuff the brand of cult. We didn't have any loaded language. That was specifically called Matthew 18

29:10I'd probably need to know a little bit more about what what specifically in Matthew 18 you're talking about

29:17That's that's the the passage about if your brother commits a sin against you you go to him

29:23And so the way that these guys

29:26portray it

29:28like with Mike

29:30whenever these the Jane Doe came forward and all these different people when when

29:36Different situations were confronted

29:38Were brought to Mike the way that he would respond is says that he would want to talk to them alone face-to-face

29:44Yeah, because that's first step of Matthew 18. Yeah, and so you you have someone in that power dynamic

29:52Who is?

29:54Isolated there was even an instance with with the Mike Bickle situation where a spouse had asked to come along

30:01and

30:03Mike refused until he got to meet with them privately first

30:07And so it's all this that the phrase and even joiner used it on Sunday

30:11He says that there's a biblical due process and whenever they say biblical due process Matthew 18 is what they're looking at

30:17So you need to go by yourself if they don't hear you then you bring a witness with you

30:23Rick made sure to clarify on Sunday to the entire congregation

30:28That if they were not an eyewitness to events if they did not see it with their own eyes that they needed to keep their

30:34Mouth shut and then he made some comments that that honestly I perceived as veiled threats

30:42Whenever he said this because what he had said he said that there is severe consequences

30:47For those who slander the people of God

30:51And he begins comparing them to a stumbling block and he says the Bible says that if you are a

30:58stumbling block it would be better off that you were not born and

31:02He says these things in succession and I'm sitting there and you hear people clapping and you hear people cheering

31:09But I'm like, I don't think you realize what he's saying

31:11He is saying that you if you didn't see this you can't have an opinion. You don't have a say

31:18And when we see people get positions of power

31:22And they go unchecked. It's only those voices that that provide any kind of accountability it gets, you know

31:29painted as gossip or whatever, but really it's

31:34They're abusing power and this is what it's come to

31:38Did you guys have situations like that in the Branham cult?

31:41yeah, you know, we had we had similar things in the Branham called the

31:46taking

31:49Just taking a step back from the Branham called just applying it globally to the movement and all of its splinter groups

31:55There is a framework that was created wherein

31:59The best way to stop people from escaping the mind control of a cult is to suppress

32:06anything critical about the cult

32:08and so not just with this but with anything if you can take a scenario where people are going to

32:16Suddenly say hey, man, there's something really bad going on here

32:19You isolate that and you have that discussion often to close, you know behind closed doors

32:26They had that not just with these sexual relationships

32:30But also with anybody who questioned the Branham called if you if you're raising questions

32:36they will send the quote-unquote brethren to come and basically verbally bully you into

32:42ceasing all questions

32:44But it goes far beyond that

32:47I'm not gonna get it get into details because some of these are legal issues

32:50but whenever it gets into a sexual situation where there is a predator I

32:55Have been made aware of situations where that was the strategy that was used get them away from the people

33:04Verbally abuse them into being quiet if they are a predator

33:08try to verbally abuse them into stopping but don't go to the proper authorities and

33:14To put it into proper perspective when we left the Branham cults

33:18there was a situation in one of the churches wherein there was a predator in the midst and

33:24I was a little bit shocked because they we had normal church service in this church and

33:31Towards the end of the sermon. The pastor says now I have something that I want to address the congregation after this and

33:38I would like for after the service. I'd like for everybody except for that family

33:43to stay here in the building and

33:46After that family left they started talking about, you know, there is a problem here

33:52we have talked we have spoken to the person and

33:56I just want you to know that there are there are situations where you may be at risk

34:01We are dealing with this person and if it goes beyond this we're going to go to the authorities

34:06They've been made aware of this but be careful and that was how it was addressed in this church and at the time

34:13It was so shocking to me. I was thinking. Oh my gosh. What if I

34:17What if I was that family? I would I would never set foot back in here again

34:21It would embarrass the heck out of me, right?

34:23But after I really processed this I thought you know

34:27If I was that person I should be embarrassed if I'm you know

34:31If that situation were to play out it needs to be properly addressed and this church actually did address it in a very good way

34:38That's not what happens in the Branham movement or Branham 2.0

34:44Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism?

34:50transition through the latter reign

34:53Charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation

34:57You can learn this and more on William Branham historical researches website

35:02William dash Branham org on the books page of the website

35:06You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley

35:11Stephen Montgomery John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book

35:18You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements

35:25If you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top

35:31And as always be sure to LIKE and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching

35:38On behalf of William Branham historical research. We want to thank you for your support

35:43Do you think in like a situation like that because I could also see the inverse

35:47Happening and that they use that as a way to make problems go away at times

35:51Do you think that that's something that had really happened and confirmed or you know?

35:54That thought crossed my mind to it. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt, you know

35:59Sure, who knows I didn't stay. I know that there were some other issues that

36:05would raise that question, but I

36:08Can say that it can be used both ways, but in the way that it was done

36:14Even if it were to make the problem go away

36:17It does protect the children and in in this particular scenario. It wasn't adults that were risk

36:24It was children that were at risk children. So yeah, I'm like, yes, man that

36:29Protect our children don't want to play with fire in those situations

36:33The other component to this Morningstar stuff was was actually some abuse that had happened in the context of

36:42What they are claiming is an unaffiliated youth program of sorts

36:48And

36:49There was an investigation done

36:52That was internal that was performed by

36:56From what they have relayed by their head of security who was a former police officer

37:01and there was another little slip whenever they're talking about that whenever Rick was talking about this and said that I

37:08Guess that he doesn't have a great relationship with the local police department as a former policeman

37:14which which makes things very curious they

37:16Began

37:18Rick made sure to affirm that the negligence that is

37:23That they are accused of is that they're in no way negligent that it's all false

37:29that they

37:30Did he did this posturing to try to make himself?

37:33I think I think that this is why people do this. I can't obviously I can't know Rick's motives, but he

37:40Postured himself in a way that he says, you know, we stand with victims

37:45and he says that our

37:48Goal and he points to his lawyer. He talks about their law. You're sitting there and that his lawyers of the same mind

37:55That they're not looking at situations from

37:58Perspective liability, but they're trying to get to the truth

38:04And so in saying that they stand with victims these victims are our guests are suing the church from what I understand

38:11And some other people associated with it

38:15They say that they're not going to stand against victims

38:19And he even says we're on the same side as the victims

38:24But then says our ultimate goal is the truth

38:28and I think that that is is the

38:32Phrase that you want to know what their definition of the truth is and what that means to them

38:37Because as we have seen, you know, there's there's no collateral damage that

38:45That stops these kind of things like the the people are expendable

38:51And from from what I've heard I've not seen anything published

38:55Directly, so this is just conjecture

38:57But this this man who abused these kids apparently was

39:01And so you hear that he was

39:06Not an employee of the church you hear them say that he was a volunteer

39:10And he didn't have any kind of official position all these things that are used to distance themselves

39:16From this situation

39:19And they act like that. They they use the right language

39:23And they use the right language to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to

39:30Right language and that's why it's so

39:35Hard to see through it at times because

39:38They say they say things like we're going to stand with the victims

39:42They say things like we have to protect our people that our people are the most important thing

39:50But i'm not sure when when when ministry say things like we got to protect our people

39:55I think sometimes what they're worried about is more about not being able to keep the doors open or not having people have a

40:00mass exodus

40:01Rather than the actual harm that happens in these situations

40:05um, he made sure to tell them all they had great insurance that was a that was a funny aside that he uh,

40:12that he took to

40:13Say for a minute and he made some very um

40:17Definitive statements about their insurance that their insurance agent probably

40:22Probably had a panic attack

40:25We're covered for everything everybody's covered and it was it was all kind of language like that and it's like, okay, here we go

40:32um

40:35But this this image management it's an interesting thing it is and you know for me it's really this simple

40:41I am sympathetic to people who have

40:45mental health issues

40:47and that includes you know people who are again, these are allegations i'm going to

40:53Separate myself from talking directly to specific people

40:57But when a person is a predator like this, it's because they have an issue

41:02They have something that they really need counseling for they need

41:06therapy sometimes medication

41:08And i'm sympathetic to that and I do believe in a forgiving god that can forgive them

41:14where I draw the line is that whenever it's a position in leadership where they're placed in a scenario where

41:21Now a predator is enabled by having prey

41:25That's where this becomes problematic

41:28because

41:28Whenever it is proven that this issue exists

41:32It's not like this issue just magically goes away later in life and never never again. They think about it

41:38They will always think about it for the rest of their lives. They will think about it because they did this thing

41:44and leadership who

41:47You know if these people are true leaders and they're leading people

41:50They're aware that for the rest of their lives this person will face this situation

41:55Kick them out of leadership this person. Yes, they can be forgiven

41:59Yes, they can

42:00You know if they're no longer praying they can be in the midst of the crowd listening

42:05But don't put them back into the place where they can do it again

42:08That's really really problematic and we see it time and time and time again

42:13And again not to name specific people, but we have people that

42:18You know paul kane didn't just give his mantle to one person paul kane

42:22Thought he had this gift that kept giving

42:26And you look at paul kane and his problems and he should have been kicked out of leadership long ago

42:31And none of this that we're we would not have this podcast today had paul kane just been kicked out of the leadership and everybody

42:38Ignored this quote unquote prophetic thing that he claimed to have

42:42and in every other area of society john like

42:45There are safeguards in place

42:48If you are a sex offender and you're put on a registry

42:52You can't live near a school like there's common sense

42:55Guidelines in the rest of society that helps keep our children safe

43:00If you're on a sexual sex offender registry, you're not going to be a teacher in a public school

43:05You're not going to be a pediatrician as a sex offender

43:08Um, that that's the things that they strip their licenses for

43:13um, but for

43:15Restoration rick and other people what they do instead

43:19Is that they they take these people and put them through a quote-unquote process?

43:24That honestly they have no

43:27training

43:28uh to do these things that they very much lean on

43:32Their connection with god speaking to them and they're the holy spirit guiding them

43:38um

43:39When when they need to ask some trained professionals on what to do in these situations and that's why

43:45In the advocacy space you hear people call for third-party investigations all the time

43:50Is because churches don't know how to handle these things. They they're not equipped for it

43:55Um, thankfully now in seminary, there's there's more and more training around this stuff

43:59But in these movements, how often do you get a seminary trained leader?

44:03And so that's that's that's a that's a unfrequent thing as well

44:08um

44:10It it it astounds me

44:13the lack of of basic

44:17Boundaries with these situations that we allow to continue

44:21and and blindly support

44:24um

44:25You know, we we the other public situation, you know that rick was involved with was todd bentley

44:32And and we saw how that went

44:34um

44:36And and these things you would think that we would learn from our decisions

44:42About my favorite

44:44Cop-out that I heard I think it's a cop-out. That's my opinion

44:49of of rick on sunday

44:51Was that he told the people that he he he apologized for not discerning

44:56this behavior with chris

44:58And what he was most concerned about with chris is that chris was being deceptive

45:03It wasn't the abuse

45:05But he said he wasn't able to discern it and he's like I prayed for discernment

45:09And he's like but the mistake I made is I didn't ask the lord for discernment now

45:14I didn't ask for it. Now. He's like the lord answered my prayer. He gave it to it gave it to us now

45:20but

45:21You know now I learned I need to ask for it then before it gets to this point

45:25And in instead of taking personal responsibility for the situation as the leader of the ministry

45:31Instead he says it's god's fault because god didn't tell him in time

45:35And and those are the subtle things and and people responded to that john with laughter

45:40When he said it as if he was making a joke, but he he

45:44Leaders do that to to pass the buck for lack of a better term. Yeah

45:49Well, and there's there are personality disorders where you are never at fault

45:53and

45:54You're deflecting because you have to deflect that's mentally. Yeah, that's mentally how your chemistry is working

46:01That too is a problem, you know, if you don't if you're in leadership and there's a problem and you don't accept responsibility

46:09Quite frankly, you're not a leader. I mean, it's pure plain and simple

46:13Yeah, that that's that's that's that's a character tell for me right away

46:18whenever i'm working with people on teams or

46:21Anything like that when they're quick to take responsibility for failures

46:25And it's not big moral things like we're just talking about here are abusive things

46:28But people who are able to own their their junk and admit that they failed and move on I would rather

46:36Work with people like that

46:38Um, then I would that people who are not self-aware or who won't take responsibility because there's there's no growth. There's no moving forward

46:45Um, there's no progress there there it's not it's not safe after a while when when someone refuses

46:53to um

46:54Especially when it's situations of harm when they refuse to address that it's it's they're no longer safe people

47:01um, but you know

47:04we're seeing with these movements that you know, they're getting a

47:08It

47:09It makes me laugh because I wonder if rick joiner 10 years ago heard rick joiner speaking today

47:15If he would think that he had gone woke because of the language that they use that they co-opt

47:21Um, they start using using terms that they they've not learned themselves, but they've heard other places to try to give an appearance

47:29um

47:31And so I I don't have a whole lot more to say about the situation

47:37um

47:39Here other than

47:42The way that they've they've they've treated the victim

47:46And I think that they have

47:50Not made the victim the priority number one

47:54That they everything that we're hearing is about chris and chris's future

47:59Um, I have i'm very suspect that they're trying to get chris to come back by the language that they're using

48:05Um rick made sure to say that he would take him back if he came back

48:10um

48:12There was techniques used to discredit the victim

48:17They they brought up the fact

48:19that

48:20The purpose of the meeting where the girl confessed

48:24uh

48:25First admitted that the abuse had happened

48:28um

48:30That it was a meeting where they were trying to determine her future in the school and whether they were going to kick her

48:35out or not

48:37um

48:38And that right there was just

48:40All of a sudden a red flag of what they were trying to do

48:44And then there was other things that were said like her age that I mentioned earlier

48:50and um, whenever it came to abuse in general

48:55Um mike bickle I thought was the king of made-up statistics, but I think rick topped him on this one

49:01And that rick made a statement and and it's egregious because it's one of those things. It's hard to call out

49:08because

49:10It's not true, but it still is really bad

49:13And it was that he said that two-thirds to three-quarters of all women have experienced sexual abuse

49:20um

49:21With with a quick google search and looking at statistics and stuff. You see that number's closer to one third

49:27But the reason that I think that these kind of statements are made is to make it seem like this stuff happens all the time

49:35um

49:36in which you know

49:38Unless of course the nar keeps their own book of statistics on leadership and maybe that's accurate

49:44I don't know. It might be accurate in an nar church. It may be

49:48Um, and then he goes on to say the same thing about men

49:51He's like he goes. I think that the number of men is the same because men don't want to talk about it

49:56um

49:58It was very curious and then he ended up going on a little tirade too of I think um trying to get ahead

50:05of some stories

50:07Where he went on a tangent about drinking and alcohol

50:11And how that they're not going to prohibit anyone from drinking alcohol because jesus drank alcohol

50:16um

50:17And that they're not going to take any freedom away from someone that the lord himself had

50:22um, because apparently in this lawsuit, um

50:26The drunkenness at morning star was one of the accusations is kind of what he hinted at

50:32And so he went on this big tirade about these

50:35um man cave gatherings that rick has i'm assuming up in moravian falls, which

50:41That place fascinates me just because I i've never known one of these guys

50:46To step out of the limelight limelight and hide somewhere in isolation like

50:52It's I don't want to get too much into that

50:55But it fascinates me moravian falls fascinates me. I make jokes about it all the time

51:00um

51:01It's straight also straight out of the playbook from brandomism there

51:04I'm, not going to name the locations but

51:07Similar similar things exist and i'll just say it like that was was was the moravian connections

51:12Did that happen in brandon is brahmanism brandon?

51:15Ism, I can't even say the word

51:17Um as well because I know that that was a huge thing at ihop and also morning star like the whole morning star name

51:23I think came out of like a moravian publication

51:26um, if I remember correctly

51:28Yeah, I don't know if I don't know about that, but there are

51:31There are biblical passages the bride and morning star so on and so forth that I think the name was actually taken from

51:38but if you

51:41When you trace its roots all the way back it all it goes back into

51:45British israelism. They're trying to apply the names from the old testament to the new

51:51the new covenant of jews

51:54It gets really weird if you try to detangle that

51:58but

51:59How those develop there are probably some internal connections between all of it

52:04Yeah

52:05I I think that if if I was going to

52:08Give some advice to people who are

52:13Trying to parse through this themselves

52:15Who find themselves in similar situations?

52:19um

52:21One if if you're if you're a victim in a situation like this

52:25um

52:26Find a support system find advocates

52:29Find people who can fight on your behalf for you in these situations

52:35If you're someone who's in the pews

52:39I think it would

52:41Benefit you

52:43To assume that everything that is being said could possibly be untrue

52:48To look at it with a hint of skepticism

52:51And and to weigh it against facts that you see in other places

52:55um, one of the things that morning star announced on sunday, um

53:00In regards to all this is that all of their I don't know if they use the word all but most of their communications

53:07regarding

53:09these events the the clergy sexual abuse and the lawsuit with the abuse of the the

53:15The young men who were in the youth group

53:18That all of that communication will be through their app only through the morning star app

53:25and so they are

53:27trying to

53:28Control where that information is available and who who has eyes on that who can see that and critique that

53:36um

53:37A lot of people will try to demonize these outside sources like the roy's report

53:42Um, because you know, they do I mean they do make money off these stories

53:47They do make advertising revenue and things like that when they publish these stories and they get traction

53:53Um, but most of these places like look with julie roy's. I mean, she was a whistleblower herself

53:59Who who experienced?

54:01All that happened when she blew the whistle and so I I

54:06Although I think we need to look at everything with a little bit of skepticism

54:09I think that these outside voices that are bringing light

54:12To some of these situations are necessary not to be afraid to listen to these

54:18Voices even when your leader demonizes them

54:22Um, if if I would have done that

54:26that simple thing

54:27Um year one at ihop kc

54:30I probably would have saved myself a whole lot of heartache. I mean it all it took was googling is ihop kc occult

54:37and you had

54:39pages of pages pages of search results and

54:43There was even this guy that we all laugh about none of us actually know him

54:47Um, but some guy in missouri know nothing about him

54:49Don't know if he's a good character bad character had this this youtube channel that we'd all came across

54:54I think it was called fellowship of the martyrs. I think is what it was called

54:57and he would post videos all the time about

55:01the

55:03heresies of mike bickle and the kansas city prophets and

55:08And and the guy was a bit of character

55:10But if if we would have had ears to hear what he was saying in those moments if we didn't automatically

55:16Take our leader's word for ihop is not a cult when mike went through his seven signs of a cult

55:21If we looked at that with skepticism so much of us

55:24I think could have been saved from the heartache of being ripped around controlled

55:30herded like cattle

55:33So so much pain could have been avoided and so I think I think that's my my advice if you're if you're a victim

55:38find support

55:40Find a support structure of sorts if get legal help if you need it

55:44Um, don't trust these guys in a room by yourself to to treat you fairly

55:49Um, and if you're somebody in the pews look at everything with skepticism start asking questions

55:55Look to other places beside your leaders for information and see if things are adding up

56:01And I think that you'll be able to to start seeing through the fog that they're creating

56:06Absolutely. That's good advice

56:07you know when you look at a minister and he's preaching to you a lot of times you want to

56:12See the face of jesus up there or paul or the apostle paul or something like this

56:17Instead if you look at this person you say that looks like bob from the one that I met at the water cooler at work

56:23the other day

56:25Bring them back down to your level. It's much easier to critically examine what they say

56:30And you have to realize that whether they claim to be a prophet apostle whatever they claim to be

56:37When you realize that they are you are equal they are human and you are human. It's much easier to

56:43Put the proper critical examination on their speech

56:47And when you do that often you can head all of this off at the pass when a person starts

56:52You know if the guy at the water cooler starts making people making the women around him

56:58Feel very quote unquote special. Well, you start to realize there's something odd here. Let's be careful

57:04So great advice. I think that's I think that's the way it should be but well

57:09This is incredibly fun brantley and I look forward to more of these and

57:13Thank you for joining us to you know to help co-host and detangle. I hop kc

57:20Absolutely. Everybody. Let us know what you want to hear about. What do you want to talk about?

57:24Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web

57:28You can find us at william-branham.org for more information about the dark side of the nar

57:34Read weaponized religion from christian identity to the nar

57:39available on amazon kindle and soon audible

58:09So

58:39You

Chris Reed and Morningstar - Episode 184 Branham Research Podcast

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