• 4 months ago
Police E00 Impact And Implications
Transcript
00:00Oh it will, the whole lot. Yeah, it could well affect the issue, you're quite right, of course it could.
00:209, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3
00:305, 4, 3, 2, 1
00:35That will all down the road.
01:01Oh I think that this particular programme will make a considerable difference to the outlook by not only this police force but other police forces on the press, television people and the public as regards to what is said and done in the future because there's never been anything like it before.
01:20And I think that Graef and Stuart will find great difficulty in maybe coming back to this force.
01:26Good evening, that was the view of one Thames Valley policeman of the series on the police which during the last 11 weeks has given a regular 10 million viewers an unprecedented insight into police methods and attitudes.
01:37It's a view not confirmed by opinion polls, 73% believing the series has not changed their view of the police one way or the other and 17% saying that the programmes had actually given them more confidence in the police.
01:51We'll talk about the polls later and we'll also be asking questions such as should the series have been made, how truthful was it and what effect if any will it have in the long run.
02:01With me in the studio to answer these questions are Chief Constable Peter Inbert of the Thames Valley Police who gave permission for the series to be made,
02:09Roger Graef, co-producer of the series with Charles Stuart, Roy Hattersley, Shadow Home Secretary, Harriet Harmon of the National Council for Civil Liberties and Eldon Griffiths, the Conservative MP who is Parliamentary Consultant to the Police Federation.
02:25First though let me tell you the conditions for filming that were agreed on between the Thames Valley Police and the BBC.
02:31In return for the complete access the BBC demanded, qualified by the right of every individual approach to say no, the police were given three guarantees.
02:40First before each screening to correct factual inaccuracies, secondly that personal and professional secrets be deleted and thirdly that the BBC would take account of police comment on fairness of presentation but yet have the last word.
02:54In the end three programmes were not shown, one because it concerned a juvenile, one because of excessive bad language and a third because one police participant didn't wish it to be shown.
03:05John Craven looks back over the series as it was transmitted and how press and public reacted.
03:12TV's candid camera presents the police as you've never seen them before.
03:17Well that's how the Daily Express previewed the police series which was to end up creating unprecedented press interest.
03:23Campaigns for and against the police and equally as much for and against the BBC were waged in television columns and some of the programmes made front page news starting with the first one.
03:35On New Year's Eve the support group kitted out with flak jackets and riot helmets was called in for a possible all out assault on a suspect's house.
03:43The man might have been armed and dangerous.
03:46Alright, alright I tell you what stand in the doorway and I'll come towards you then. Stand there, that's where I can see your hands. I'm just coming, I'm just coming.
04:00Go, go, go, go, go.
04:03Watch his window, watch his window.
04:06Good aim mate.
04:08It's alright, that's it, thank you very much.
04:12He's not stopping.
04:15Well done, well done Michael.
04:18You know what's about, it'll be explained to you shortly Mr Stimson.
04:23Donald Stimson, the suspect in this case instantly became the centre of a press row about television ethics as some papers reported inaccurately that the film had broken up his marriage.
04:34The next film again raised the question of privacy.
04:37Some of the press were shocked by Detective Brian Kirk's harrowing ordeal when he was stripped of CID status yet still allowed BBC cameras to be present to witness his distress.
04:48Prying eye and private shame said the mail.
04:51Well now two years later and just plain PC Kirk he's a respected copper on the beat.
04:57It is said, and let me make it very very clear to you because I shan't hold me punches, that it is felt that you have been dodging the work where aggravation is likely to be produced.
05:11And in fact it's got to the stage where some of your younger colleagues are saying about you that you are one of the old stages who are untouchable and no one has got the courage of their convictions or the strength of character to recommend that you be moved.
05:30Well the time has come that it is now happening today and in view of the reports that I've received, the conversations that I've had, I'm recommending that you be returned to uniform duties as soon as possible.
05:51What do you have to say about that?
05:53I'm just absolutely and utterly speechless.
06:02Police began to look as though it had the seeds of a soap opera when Brian Kirk appeared again in the next film, A Complaint of Rape.
06:11Rape was very much in the news. A rapist had been let off with a £2,000 fine instead of jail and his victim was accused of contributory negligence.
06:20And in Scotland the Crown Office was criticised for not pursuing the prosecution of a rapist.
06:25So with this background of public interest, some viewers who'd shown great sympathy towards Brian Kirk...
06:35Alright, back to...
06:38Police began to look as though it had the seeds of a soap opera.
06:43Police began to look as though it had the seeds of a soap opera when Brian Kirk appeared again in the next film, A Complaint of Rape.
07:01Rape was very much in the news. A rapist had been let off with a £2,000 fine instead of jail and his victim was accused of contributory negligence.
07:10And in Scotland the Crown Office was criticised for not pursuing the prosecution of a rapist.
07:16So with this background of public interest, some viewers who'd shown great sympathy towards Detective Brian Kirk the week before...
07:23...may have felt it disappear when they saw him as the interrogator in A Complaint of Rape.
07:30Listen to me. I've been sitting here 20 minutes, half an hour listening to you.
07:34Some of it's the biggest lot of bollocks I've ever heard. I can get very annoyed very shortly.
07:39One minute you're saying it's Coley, next minute you're saying it's the Midway.
07:42You pass, Coley. Park.
07:44What happened? I'm sick and tired of the ups and downs and the ins and outs.
07:48Some of this is better fairy tales than bloody Gretel can do.
07:54Now stop mucking us all about.
07:56I'm not mucking you about.
07:57I'm not saying to you as you're lying.
07:59Get rid of the fruitiness, get rid of all the beauty about it and let's get down to facts and figures.
08:03It's not beautiful at all, is it?
08:04Some of it is. All this crap about bus stops and numbers and blue and white tea towels to wipe myself down with.
08:10What the hell's gone on? If nothing's gone on, let's all pack it off and go home.
08:15The press and the public hotly debated whether that kind of grilling was out of the ordinary or part of regular police routine.
08:22Jean Rook in The Express called the police thick, unintelligent, ill-educated, foul-spoken.
08:29While Linda Lee Potter in The Mail accused the BBC of being professional exploiters who turned the subject of rape into titillating entertainment.
08:38The chairman of the Police Federation, Jim Jardine, wasn't happy either.
08:42This programme has done more harm to public relations between the police and the public,
08:47and certainly for people who could be wanting to go to a police station to complain about rape,
08:52than anything that's ever done in the last 60 years.
08:56But Peter Fiddick in The Guardian praised it for being in the rare category of programmes that have actually changed things,
09:03for the Thames Valley Police have been worried enough by it to look again at how they conduct such cases.
09:09And Mrs Thatcher expressed her concern in Parliament.
09:12The fame of Thames Valley Police force spread. They became the Monday night stars of television.
09:18He's not booking him guv, it's just another autograph.
09:21And this Smirnoff ad could almost be Brian Kirk.
09:24I wanted to become an actor, but luckily I joined the Thames Valley Police.
09:28The pop festival programme showed the drug squad at work.
09:40That's LSD. That's white star LSD.
09:45But it wasn't. If it had been, it would have been worth £25,000.
09:50But it turned out to be nothing more than a bag of macaroni.
09:53Both the drug buyers and the police had been conned.
09:56The subject of episode 5 was an old man found dead at the bottom of the stairs.
10:02The police's handling of the case of Mickey the Bricky upset James Murray of the Express,
10:07a consistent critic of the series. He called it a monstrous abuse of television.
10:12The abuse being that viewers were left with the thought
10:15that some of Mickey's fellow dossers were less witnesses than suspects.
10:22Is this everyone?
10:27I'm Chief Inspector Warren. I'm involved with this inquiry.
10:31You know that one of your colleagues is dead.
10:37At the moment, we've got the house sealed off.
10:41Now, we're not pointing the finger at any one of you,
10:44but what we've got to do is to talk to you again tomorrow morning.
10:49We can't allow you back to the house, so you've got nowhere to keep.
10:53So what we're going to do is accommodate you here tonight.
10:56Now, you're not under arrest or anything of that nature.
11:00You're being given accommodation. You'll have breakfast in the morning.
11:03What happened? You don't want us.
11:05Pardon? What happened? You don't want us.
11:07If you don't want us... You don't want accommodations.
11:09But, you know, we will give you that tonight.
11:13There's a 12-week training course during which new recruits
11:16are taught to deal with all sorts and conditions of people,
11:19sometimes with the help of amateur dramatics.
11:24Do you know what's in the boot, sir? Yes, mate.
11:26Could you tell us?
11:28Not a lot.
11:30Run, Ian! Run!
11:40Hey!
11:42Oi! What are you doing with my mate? Get off!
11:45That's my brother! That's my brother!
11:47Get off!
11:49That's my brother!
11:51Get off!
11:53Get off!
11:55Get off!
11:57Get off!
11:59Get off!
12:01Get off!
12:03Get off!
12:05Get off!
12:07That's my brother. That's my brother.
12:10That's my brother. That's my brother, you struggling, weird officer.
12:14That's my brother.
12:16That's my brother.
12:18Right.
12:20You will find that when you deal with general people,
12:23if you deal with working-class people,
12:27and people who are generally found about,
12:30they do not mind all that much being arrested.
12:35They seem to accept that if they do something wrong,
12:39they are liable to end up back at the police station.
12:44However, certain classes of people and certain races,
12:50coloured people, for instance,
12:52take an instant dislike to being arrested.
12:55I don't know why, but when you try and arrest someone coloured,
12:58they go mad.
13:02Another frequent event for even the newest recruit
13:05is the theme of the next film, Robbery.
13:17Snowy, can you have a word with the attendant
13:20and get as best description as you can of the offenders, all right?
13:24And try and go over that vehicle again, will you?
13:27I'll get on to Reading and we'll get the manager or the keyholder down.
13:31Have you got the manager's phone number?
13:33He's on his way, is he? Yeah, OK.
13:35We'll get CID down as well.
13:37Burglars, redfaces and de Bret.
13:40Well, that's how the Telegraph described the next programme.
13:43Laura, Duchess of Marlborough, was in danger of being burgled
13:47and the police wanted to lay an ambush.
13:49But her houseguest, Sir Arthur Bryant,
13:51didn't have proof that the uninvited guests
13:54really were the police and the BBC,
13:56and he promptly turfed them all out.
14:00Don't worry about it, don't be concerned.
14:02I know, I know.
14:04Sir, the gentleman is quite right.
14:06He is. Of course he is.
14:08We're only worried about your safety.
14:10I said it was very rude to lock you out in the cold.
14:12Don't be concerned about that.
14:14It seems to me an extraordinary thing
14:16that in a private house,
14:18without any warning from the police at all,
14:20a team of policemen should arrive,
14:22followed by a BBC team.
14:24So they want to find out where everything in the house is.
14:27You're absolutely right, sir.
14:28Now, if you want to get an inspector,
14:30or the local inspector up here or something,
14:32that's a very... This officer knows us.
14:34We're only worried, Madam,
14:36Duchess, that that car will be seen from the road
14:39if they're doing...
14:40He's just going to move it there and come and speak to you, sir.
14:43Do you see what I mean?
14:45More mundane aspects of police work,
14:47seen in the traffic film,
14:49demonstrated our ambivalent attitude to the police.
14:52Wonderful when we need them at a crime or an accident,
14:55but not so welcome when they stop us for bad driving.
15:00Good evening, sir.
15:01Are we going to park our car like this, are we?
15:04Are we going to park your car like this, are we?
15:07No, definitely not, no, no.
15:09I tell you what, that was a little bit naughty
15:11the way you came across the road, wasn't it?
15:13Well, I looked back.
15:15I looked back and looked forward.
15:17You looked back and you looked forward.
15:19You had your left-hand indicator on.
15:21I wanted to turn left.
15:23Why didn't you turn left instead of just taking the point?
15:26I didn't know that I missed this restaurant.
15:28Yeah.
15:29Making these silly little decisions on the road like that
15:32is when we start having accidents.
15:34If you've indicated to turn left
15:37and you suddenly change your mind,
15:39stick your right-hand indicator on and come across here
15:42in the face of an oncoming vehicle,
15:45we've got all the makings of an accident, really, haven't we?
15:50Cell Death, episode 10,
15:52was the case of a man who died in police custody,
15:55a drunk who apparently choked on his own vomit.
15:58In 1980, the year the series was filmed,
16:0163 people died in custody in England.
16:04Were the police too keen on tidying up their evidence
16:07or just getting their facts clear?
16:09Right, well, now, can we make that perfectly clear?
16:13So was he struggling or not?
16:17It's quite hard to describe, but it was...
16:19To be quite honest, I thought he was going to hit him.
16:22Well, that's great. Like I said, it's great.
16:25I mean, the guy wasn't unconscious then.
16:27So you're going to tell me, if you will, please,
16:30that he was virtually struggling
16:32and certainly you had that impression
16:34that he was going to try and lay one on him.
16:40So I'll put another little thing there, OK,
16:43where you've said wave designs.
16:45The last film of the series
16:47showed a routine Saturday night's police work,
16:50with punch-ups at closing time
16:52and enquiries pursued at the hospital.
16:54The hard grit and the humanity of the job,
16:57sometimes humorous, sometimes mundane.
17:00A recurring scene was a drunken driver
17:02taking the breathalyser test.
17:09Can I have a piece of the van?
17:13Not for a minute.
17:15You're being required to take a breath test,
17:17so that's the first thing you've got to do.
17:19If you fail to comply with taking a breath test...
17:21I don't apply... I don't fail...
17:23I'm just telling you this, so you listen to me.
17:25If you fail to take a breath test,
17:27which means inflating the bag in not less than ten
17:30and not more than 20 seconds in one single breath...
17:32No, you listen to me. If you fail to do that,
17:34you'll be liable to arrest for failure to take a breath test.
17:37So take your deep breath and do it.
17:39I'm not physically capable of it.
17:41Why are you not physically capable of it?
17:43Well, I don't think so, no.
17:45Why's that?
17:46Well, I... I...
17:48You're not refusing, are you?
17:50You've got your chance to blow up the bag.
17:59I do not recall, said the Guardian,
18:01the last time it seemed necessary
18:03to tune in every week to a documentary series.
18:06And that's certainly the way that a lot of Thames Valley policemen
18:09must have felt about it.
18:11And this is how one writer in the police officer's magazine
18:14summed up his feelings.
18:16I suspect that Tuesday mornings in Kiddlington,
18:18that's the police headquarters,
18:20have a new piquancy as the top brass
18:22try to reach a consensus view
18:24on whether E Division lost or won
18:27their previous night's episode.
18:30Well, that, of course, was a selective reminder
18:32of some of the highlights of the series.
18:34But what do the Thames Valley policemen think of the series now?
18:37We went to Reading Police Station
18:39just before the end of the series
18:41to speak to some of those who had appeared
18:43and to Joe Wise, a crime correspondent
18:45who's been covering the series and police affairs generally
18:48for the Reading Chronicle.
18:59Well, there have been two completely different reactions by the police.
19:02There's a very definite party line
19:04that says we defend to the hilt our decision.
19:07It was brave and we were right to do it.
19:09And they'll stick by that.
19:11Privately, once they're off the record,
19:13they're all saying,
19:15I wish we had ever done it.
19:17We regret it and it's horrible
19:19and we dread every Monday night.
19:22Is there anything worse that can possibly come out of it?
19:25They think their image has become zilch in the public eye.
19:29I think that's probably right as well.
19:34I was pulling up to...
20:00The reaction to the media is awful.
20:03They...
20:25Since the broadcast of the police programmes,
20:29instructions have been given now
20:31that we don't give interviews to the press,
20:33or I've certainly been given instructions
20:35not to give interviews with the press
20:37unless they're tape-recorded
20:39or a senior officer sits in on those interviews,
20:41which was something that hadn't taken place
20:43prior to the police programmes, or for me personally.
20:46The natural desire of programme makers to catch an audience
20:49concerned some policemen.
20:52There was no way they were going to achieve
20:54what they set out to in the first place.
21:06Basically, there was no way they were going to achieve
21:09what they set out to in the first place.
21:12If they really wanted to do it,
21:15if they really wanted to do it,
21:18if they really showed what we do for 90% of the time,
21:23I think when they made it into a television programme
21:26and looked at it, they would decide
21:28that it probably wasn't very good television viewing.
21:31And because of that, I think...
21:33I don't know what their reactions were,
21:35but I probably think that when they saw
21:37the way things actually happened,
21:39they decided that it would be better viewing
21:42to take the more out-of-the-ordinary,
21:45hardly spectacular, but certainly the more out-of-the-ordinary incidents
21:48and concentrate on those.
21:50Roger Grafe and Charles Stewart have made excellent entertainment.
21:53There's no two ways about that.
21:55And I think if you look at the Duchess film,
21:57that was shown on...
21:59The programmes all went out after ten o'clock,
22:01but all of a sudden, because that was quite good entertainment,
22:04there's no doubt about that, that went out
22:06instead of the last of the summer wine,
22:08so that tends to show that it was good entertainment,
22:11and they saw it as such and scheduled it to go out
22:14because some of it was a really good laugh.
22:16You've got the Softly Softly, Zed Cars,
22:20the Sweeney, Kojak, all those programmes,
22:23and in those programmes you've got professional actors.
22:26Now, I think the public has become used to professional actors.
22:31No lines are fluffed, and if the lines are in fact fluffed,
22:35then they start again.
22:37So not so with a fly-on-the-wall documentary technique
22:40at real police stations,
22:42so perhaps we suffer a bit from that, I think.
22:44Non-professionalism in the acting,
22:46no members of equity at a police station,
22:49and when people see real policemen acting rather less well
22:53than professional actors,
22:55then, of course, perhaps we go down in their estimation.
22:58Perhaps that could only be said of the unfortunate Brian Kirk,
23:02who hardly found it to his advantage.
23:05Officially said, I think that's human nature by the...
23:10Some individuals have suffered greatly.
23:13For example, PC Kirk.
23:18He's been subjected to a lot of criticism.
23:22Whether that was right or not, it's not for me to say here.
23:27But his personal life, I think,
23:32but his personal life has been affected a great deal.
23:37He's been tortured, if you like, with telephone calls.
23:43He's had nasty letters,
23:46and in fact, he had the other day a piece of poetry sent to him
23:51which was not particularly nice at all.
23:55In the end, what effect do the police think the series will have
23:58on the public's attitude to them?
24:00And, indeed, their own attitude to themselves?
24:08It's shown policemen to be very, very human,
24:11to be there doing a job,
24:13and yet we're culled from the public, taken from the public.
24:17There is an image sometimes, an unfortunate image,
24:20that policemen are just poured into a mould,
24:22the mould is cracked and a little man trots out on the street
24:25with a helmet on, because that's how the public generally see them.
24:29Well, they've seen them at work, they've seen them at play,
24:31and they've seen them to be human.
24:33To find out what the public at large think of the series,
24:36here's John Craven with the opinion polls.
24:42We commissioned two public opinion polls,
24:44one national, by Gallup,
24:46and one in the Thames Valley area, by Moray.
24:48Nationally, 73% said the series had made no difference
24:52to their confidence in the police,
24:54and 2% said they didn't know.
24:56But the other quarter had been influenced by a series
24:59which didn't set out to make any judgements.
25:0117% said they now had more confidence in the police,
25:058% said they had less.
25:07In the Thames Valley area, 70% have been unaffected,
25:11again, 2% didn't know.
25:1313% have increased confidence,
25:16and 15% have decreased their confidence.
25:19Asked whether they thought the series would help or damage
25:22relations between the police and the public,
25:25nationally, 43% said it would make no difference.
25:2831% of the people said it would help,
25:3121% said it would damage police-public relations.
25:35That's one in five.
25:36And 6% didn't know.
25:38In the Thames Valley area,
25:40confidence in the police has slightly increased.
25:42When NOP questioned people there in January,
25:4539% said they had a great deal of confidence,
25:4946% a fair amount,
25:5111% said they had little,
25:54and 4% none at all.
25:56I asked the same question by Morrie last week,
25:5946% said they had a great deal of confidence,
26:0241% a fair amount,
26:0510% said they had little,
26:07and 2% none at all.
26:09On one programme, a complaint of rape,
26:11people are clear that the police did not behave well at all.
26:15In the Thames Valley area,
26:16just over half were dissatisfied
26:18with the way the police handled the case.
26:21Nationally, two-thirds thought the police behaved badly.
26:24After the programme in January,
26:26a third of people in the Thames Valley area
26:28thought the case was an exception.
26:30By March, half thought that,
26:32which is also the view nationally.
26:34And asked whether they approved of the BBC showing the series,
26:37nationally, 80% approved,
26:40and in the Thames Valley area, 86% approved,
26:4356% saying that the series had taught them something about the police.
26:48And having learnt about the police,
26:5086% in the Thames Valley area
26:52said they would like to see other institutions treated in the same way,
26:56most popular by far for scrutiny with the social services.
27:01Mr Im, but now that the series is over
27:03and the shouting has died down,
27:05are you glad or are you sorry that you gave your blessing to it?
27:09I wouldn't say that I'm glad that I gave my blessing to it.
27:12I would say that I'm relieved that it's all over
27:15and I think it was right that we allowed the cameras in
27:18and we showed ourselves as we've been seen to be.
27:22It's been a traumatic experience without any doubt at all
27:25and I believe I described it at one time
27:28as looking at your own x-ray plates
27:30and perhaps being surprised at what you find there.
27:33I would be even more dramatic now.
27:35I think it's been like open-heart surgery
27:37and perhaps finding that you only went in for ingrown toenails.
27:40It's really been that traumatic.
27:43But I think it's right that we did it.
27:46I'm glad that it's over.
27:49I'm glad that we can now look back at it,
27:51but I think it's very, very important that we look at it in the whole context.
27:55This is how I see the public seeing it now
27:57and I'm frankly delighted that it's increased the confidence
28:00that the public have in their police force.
28:02I didn't think it was at all possible to increase that confidence.
28:05We were running at such a high level anyway.
28:07But if we are to believe what's been shown just now...
28:10When you say we, you mean the Thames Valley or the police generally?
28:13The police generally. I think that's very, very important.
28:16We're just one small part of the police service in this country
28:19and I think it is important that the public do have confidence in their police force.
28:23If we've done something to contribute to that, I'm glad of that.
28:26Do you have any reservations?
28:28Is there any one thing that if you had the time again you wouldn't do?
28:31No. I do have reservations about the whole series
28:35inasmuch as I was disappointed that in an area
28:39where we have something like 30,000 detections in one year,
28:42which is pretty high,
28:44that there appeared to be at one time a series of
28:47what we could describe as less than successful operations.
28:50And I was disappointed that we came over apparently in an unprofessional way.
28:55And I feel partly responsible for that
28:58because I've subjected these officers to the trauma
29:02of having the cameras looking over their shoulders
29:04and that's not an easy task when one is dealing with,
29:06as we've seen over the series, without maligning them at all,
29:10occasionally the flotsam and jetsam of life
29:12which floats through police stations
29:14and the officers deal with it to the best of their ability.
29:17Roger Grafe, what do you feel looking back on the series now?
29:20Would you do anything differently to what you did?
29:23Well, there were lots of occasions when we would have liked to have had
29:26cameras loaded and ready and be able to film
29:29some of the successes perhaps that Peter Embers talked about.
29:33But in fact, I think the figures in the polls are very interesting
29:37compared to the press reaction that was quoted, especially.
29:40Because the polls are telling us that ordinary people
29:43do come out of this pleased with what they're seeing
29:46and are able to incorporate the ups and downs of real life,
29:50which is what we were dealing with,
29:52perhaps better than both sensitive policemen and certain critics have done.
29:57And especially if you take somebody like P.C. Kirk,
30:00who at the time was vilified really very roughly for what he did,
30:04and yet even Nancy Banks Smith in The Guardian said
30:07that she thought in that episode everybody emerged from it with humanity.
30:11And we went to Brian's house two weeks later
30:13and found him with 50 letters from people around the country,
30:16only three or four of which were critical,
30:18and lots of others praising his courage
30:20for allowing the cameras to witness his experience.
30:23Yes, but this was an inadequate man by any standards,
30:25and you're on record as saying that you didn't want to make
30:28the expense of anyone's humiliation.
30:30Surely Brian Kirk was, to some extent, humiliated.
30:32No, I don't agree with that, actually.
30:34I think that he emerged from it with dignity,
30:36and indeed, again, I brought Nancy's review in because it's so important.
30:39She said Kirk is exactly the sort of P.C. one would like to meet on the street,
30:42and he's doing extremely well in Pangborn at the moment.
30:45It may be that in that he clearly made a mistake,
30:47but his style is something that not everybody reacts to the way you did.
30:50I really don't accept that.
30:52I'll put one thing to you about him before we leave him, and that is this.
30:55Was his inadequacy...
30:57That's your word. I don't think it's mine.
30:59Well, it's struck a lot of people that he was inadequate,
31:02and was not, in a way, part of that inadequacy
31:05something that you ought to have protected?
31:07Well, that presumes something that I don't accept,
31:09which is that he was inadequate.
31:11As far as I'm concerned, what we saw
31:13were people doing their best in difficult circumstances.
31:16We don't always approve of what they did.
31:18I was not sitting in judgment on anybody in that series,
31:20and that's very important.
31:22What I was saying, and I think it's the lessons for television
31:25and for other institutions,
31:27I hope will be learned in the longer run than the immediate morning after,
31:32is that the public are able to come out of this exercise
31:35with confidence, increased confidence, if anything, in the police,
31:38despite having seen all these things which people seem so shocked by.
31:41And if the cameras are allowed in with no holds barred
31:44and the kind of freedom we had, it may be a positive exercise,
31:47but you won't know it until it's over.
31:49One last question before we move on to more general things.
31:51Did you get permission?
31:53I know you got permission from the police before you screened the programme.
31:56Did you get permission from the ordinary public who took part?
31:59Yes, we got it in a number of ways, actually.
32:01In any specific interview, the consent of each person was necessary,
32:06as well as each detective, each civilian, if you like.
32:09They had to be asked in advance.
32:11You asked everybody who took part?
32:13Anyone who was interviewed, brought into the police station
32:16and interviewed in the interview room, yes, they were asked.
32:18In other cases, because we guaranteed not to interfere with the police work,
32:22we couldn't stop an arrest and say, by the way, we're from the BBC.
32:25But we never hid the camera.
32:27Therefore, as did happen, if someone objected to being filmed,
32:31they said so and we would say who we were.
32:33Often they thought we were police crews
32:35and when they found out we were the BBC, they said yes.
32:37Did you ask the girl who complained of rape?
32:39Absolutely, indeed.
32:40Did you show her the screening?
32:42No, we offered that to her through her mother
32:44and her mother declined on her behalf.
32:46But we were asked to leave and invited back
32:49on three separate occasions during that by the girl herself.
32:53Right. I'd just like to get on, if I could, because we've got a lot to get through.
32:57Mr. Inman, I'd like you just to know,
32:59while we're on this question of the girl who complained about rape,
33:02what did your officers know about this girl before they did the interview?
33:07Yes, this is one of the difficult things
33:09when one has the constraints of filming and of time,
33:12that the officers were undoubtedly, so far as I could see,
33:15subjective rather than objective.
33:17And they, of course, saw her come into the police station
33:21and that's the sort of thing which can't be seen by the cameras
33:25or wasn't seen by the cameras.
33:27They could see her face when she was...
33:29I was asking you, what did they know about her history before she came in?
33:32Well, they would have known something about her history
33:35before they had started the question, without any doubt at all,
33:39because they were officers from that area
33:41and, if I could say so in the kindest possible way,
33:44the girl wasn't unknown to the police station.
33:46Yes, she'd made complaints before, had she not, which weren't substantiated.
33:50Is that right? Yes, that is so.
33:52But, of course, that shouldn't persuade them
33:55to be insensitive to the complaints at that particular time.
33:58No, but what I'm asking is this, that if they had not had this information,
34:02they might perhaps have questioned her in a rather different way.
34:05Oh, I'm sure that that's so.
34:07I think we must all be somewhat subjective
34:09about the inquiry which we're conducting at that time,
34:12without any doubt at all, yes.
34:14So it wasn't really a typical case, this?
34:16I would say it's grossly untypical
34:18and, indeed, this is one of the reservations that I had about it
34:21when I wrote to the BBC, not wishing to change it at all.
34:24And I was very disappointed that we should see
34:26a case of a rape investigation like that
34:29and I'm gratified that we've had so many letters from ladies
34:33who've been subjected to this terrible crime
34:36and I congratulate Thames Valley Police on the way they've been treated.
34:39I'm drawing it to our attention.
34:40Do you have a comment on that, Harriet Harman?
34:42Yes, I do. I think it's totally inadequate for Mr Inbert
34:45to say whether or not their approach was subjective or objective.
34:49Their approach to that woman who was saying that she'd been raped
34:53and had came into the police station as an alleged victim of rape,
34:56their approach to her was atrocious.
34:58And you wouldn't say to somebody who came into the police station
35:01who alleged they'd been mugged,
35:03that you've been mugged before
35:05and therefore you somehow must have brought it on yourself.
35:07I think that it's regrettable that it's not until a TV programme
35:11shows on the screen the disgraceful way that police officers treat rape victims
35:16that people really accept the complaints that have been made
35:19by women's organisations and by many women over the years.
35:22And I think it's a great shame that instead of Peter Inbert saying,
35:25yes, I can see that we're doing the wrong thing
35:27in the way we treat rape victims,
35:29he's now trying to slide out of it.
35:31We'll come back to you in a minute, Mr Inbert.
35:33I think Elinor Griffiths wants to say something here.
35:35Yes, you see, here is exactly the problem.
35:37Harriet Harman has concluded from this particular incident,
35:41which I think most of us regret
35:43and which the Chief Constable has certainly said he disapproved of,
35:47she goes on to say, until the television cameras arrived,
35:51no-one knew how police officers treat all complainants of rape.
35:56The point is, this is an atypical, unrepresentative case
36:01and the unfortunate thing about the series,
36:04which I generally approve,
36:06is that it has suggested, by selecting a number of incidents,
36:10that they are in every respect typical, representative, normal.
36:14They are not. And that is the whole point of the issue.
36:17Do you want to say anything on the rape thing, Roy?
36:19Not on the rape point specifically, but I want to use it as an example
36:22of something I have to say more generally.
36:24I think we just leave the rape, but before we do it,
36:26would you like to say anything further about it?
36:28Yes, I think Harriet Harman is herself being subjective
36:31rather than objective about this.
36:33And I think that when she says that I'm trying to slide out of it,
36:37I'm not at all.
36:38I'm glad that I've seen that interview about the case of rape
36:42because I think that we can then examine it
36:44and we can say to ourselves, well, if it happened that once,
36:47how many more times has it happened?
36:49And we can be that much more careful.
36:51That's one of the good things which has come out of this programme,
36:53that we can really have a look at it in depth.
36:55Just one last thing to ask you.
36:57Did it strike you that that woman who was complaining about rape
37:01really had been raped?
37:04I mean, did it strike you that...?
37:06Let me say that I was disturbed by the interview
37:11because there was a lady who was apparently being interviewed by herself
37:16and it would have been better had her mother or father been there.
37:19I think that they came to the right conclusion,
37:22but I think they came to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons.
37:25Good. Thanks very much. I'd like to move on now.
37:27Roy Hattersley is Shadow Home Secretary
37:29and therefore an officer which is a police authority.
37:33What did you learn from the series?
37:35Well, first of all, let me say I'm not at all surprised
37:38that it improved the police's reputation
37:40because I think it did in a way squash the more vulgar criticism of the police
37:44which is they're moving towards a semi-military status
37:48that they're detached, that they are gratuitously brutal,
37:53that they're inconsiderate about human feelings and civil liberties.
37:57I think the police came out of it looking enormously human.
38:00My concern is that in some ways
38:02they came out of it looking rather too human in two ways.
38:05One is that the people who run the police in the area
38:08I think obviously made some errors about how the police are deployed and used.
38:13There was an entire programme where I think 18 officers
38:17were spending two evenings protecting the property of a duchess.
38:21I don't think we've seen 18 officers in my constituency
38:24on any one occasion during the last 20 years.
38:27The more sophisticated question about the programme is
38:29does it show that police time and manpower
38:32are being used in the most sensible and most serious way?
38:35Secondly, I think it raises another disturbing question about competence,
38:39about the competence of some people recruited
38:41and the competence of the training they receive.
38:44If you take PC Kirk and his colleague cross-examining the rape victim,
38:49though it'll be very unpopular with many viewers,
38:52my complaint about them was not innate brutality.
38:55I just regard it as a wholly incompetent interview.
38:58Two men who were really not up to that job were carrying out that job,
39:01as a result of which the young lady suffered a great deal more
39:04than it was decent to let her suffer.
39:06And I don't think the programme raises any questions
39:09about police humanity and decency.
39:11I think it raises some questions about competence and organisation.
39:14Would you like to come back on that, Mr Inwood?
39:16Yes, I would. On two points, if I may.
39:18One about the competency of the officers
39:20and the other about the 18 officers protecting the duchess.
39:22I think what we must understand is that
39:25they're not protecting a duchess or her property,
39:27they're trying to catch some very aggressive villains
39:30who've been attacking property and people in that particular area.
39:33And of course they were successful later on.
39:36On the question of the competency of officers
39:38when you are interrogating that lady,
39:41and it was an interrogation,
39:43yes, we need more training.
39:45But until you give us more officers, we can't have more training.
39:48If we take them away to train them, you won't have the officers there.
39:51Could I make the point about the 18 officers protecting a duchess?
39:55They were very aggressive individuals
39:58who were going to make that attack.
40:00Absolutely no doubt about that.
40:02And if we'd had any less, we could well have ended up with murder.
40:06I think it was right to have those 18.
40:08Didn't look right on the films, of course,
40:10but we don't see the whole picture.
40:12Roy?
40:13Well, I don't think the problem is quite answered by the chief constable,
40:17if I may say so.
40:18I know that if there were numerous additions to the police strength,
40:22the police force of this country would be able to do
40:24all the things that everybody wants them to do.
40:27But in a democracy, in a democracy which is short of funds,
40:30there are going to be less policemen available
40:32than each chief constable would like to see.
40:35The real question is how the limited resources are used.
40:37And I still raise the question as to whether that is the best way
40:40to use short manpower when other things are happening,
40:44which the citizens of the towns, at least, within the area,
40:47the people who are worried about smaller break-ins,
40:49the people who are worried about muggings,
40:51who want to see policemen walking along the streets on their beat,
40:54would regard as much more important.
40:56And I think the question is reproduced again with, I think, Programme 2,
41:00where there was the man in the house suspected of having a weapon
41:03and I think it turned out to have a household appliance, not a weapon.
41:06But that's, in a sense, irrelevant because the police didn't know at the moment.
41:09But nevertheless, it's a massive police operation.
41:12And I think we have to ask the question whether policing is moving
41:15towards this sudden, massive, quick-response operation
41:19rather than using the available resources more thinly, walking about.
41:23I think that's a great question of policing for the next five years.
41:25Eldon Griffiths?
41:26Indeed, it is a question, but I think it also illustrates
41:29the unwisdom of allowing politicians to take decisions
41:32as to how the police should deploy their resources.
41:35Of course, if you look at the programmes,
41:37it may well appear that there was an excessive number of men there
41:41and Roy Hattersley has reacted to it.
41:43But what he doesn't know, neither do I,
41:46is what knowledge the chief officer of police and the men on the spot had
41:50about the record of violent attacks that had been made by this particular gang
41:56and therefore they sought to tackle the gang
41:58where they were most likely to catch them.
42:00Now, it is the surrounding information that any chief officer at any time has
42:05that must determine how he deploys his resources.
42:08And that is why it's so important, despite this television programme,
42:12to leave the operational decisions with the chief officer
42:15and not to allow politicians or television producers
42:18to get in there and tell the police how to do their business.
42:21Harriet Harman?
42:22I'd like to just take up a point on training,
42:24which both Mr Hattersley and Mr Inbert have referred to.
42:27It's not just the amount of training the police get,
42:29but the quality of training they get.
42:31And we've just seen on that clip from the training programme
42:34that the police officer is being trained
42:37that black people are likely to go mad when they're arrested.
42:40Now, are you worried about that,
42:42or is it any surprise that the police are accused of being racialist?
42:46Training should be used to try and get rid of those racialist attitudes,
42:49not to reinforce them.
42:51And again, I think the programme's been very revealing
42:53and has borne out a lot of complaints that are made.
42:56Mr Inbert?
42:57Yes, it has borne out that sort of thing.
43:00But I wasn't at all surprised to hear that.
43:03I was rather sad to hear it.
43:05But indeed, I think that shows the inhibitions
43:08that those officers are working under when the cameras are filming them.
43:11I would say that that's exactly what that showed at that particular time.
43:16If I could take up Roy Hattersley's point, if I may,
43:18so far as the second programme,
43:20in fact it was the first programme when there was the siege situation,
43:23and Eldon Griffiths follows this by saying about the knowledge
43:27which police have when they are taking up one of those operations.
43:32In that case there, as we heard that man himself say
43:37that he had a conviction for possessing a firearm without a certificate
43:42and he had spent two years in prison because of that.
43:45And I think if we look carefully at that statement,
43:47one doesn't get two years imprisonment for not having a firearm certificate.
43:51And I think one ought to look a little bit more closely
43:54about what actually happened that night.
43:56There we have a man who has allegedly, according to his wife,
44:00shot the dog, going to shoot her, and we know that he has this conviction
44:05and we find it out from his own mouth later on.
44:08It's just about six years ago when a local sergeant was killed in the Midlands
44:13when he went to a house under very similar circumstances
44:16and he was shot by a shotgun.
44:19He was followed by the constable and the constable was then shot dead.
44:24And I think that our record, certainly within Thames Valley,
44:27stands examination that in the 13 years since we were formed
44:31we have not used a firearm in anger,
44:34but we've resolved many, many, many firearms incidents.
44:37And I think Eldon Griffiths is quite right that it's got to be left
44:41to the operational judgment of the man in charge at that particular time.
44:44Sorry, I'd like to move on, Roy, if I could, too.
44:47We've got rather a lot to get through.
44:49I'd like to move on to you, Harriet Harman, and ask how the series struck you.
44:52I believe you have one or two observations to make.
44:55Well, yes, from the civil liberties aspects,
44:57there are two particularly telling things.
44:59The first is the number of drunks that the police are dealing with.
45:02Now, some ten years ago it was accepted by the government
45:05that the police are not the right people for dealing with drunks.
45:08They should be taken to detoxification centres
45:11and they'd be properly supervised and properly looked after
45:14by people trained to deal with drunk people.
45:16And perhaps if that had been the case, that young man might never have died.
45:20The trouble is, successive governments have failed to put the money in
45:23to set these detoxification centres up.
45:26I think, really, these programmes underline that that must be done.
45:31The police are the wrong people to deal with drunks.
45:34And the second point is a very serious problem,
45:36is the question of the complete lack of safeguards for suspects in the police station.
45:41We saw people being interrogated, very vulnerable people in some cases,
45:45people who were drunk, people who were young, people who were suffering from shock,
45:49and it being alleged against them, sometimes very serious offences,
45:53and yet in no cases during those interrogations
45:56were people allowed to see a solicitor or was a solicitor present to advise them.
46:01In fact, in one case, somebody asked twice to see a solicitor and that was refused,
46:05which I think is probably a fragrant breach of the judge's rules.
46:08And in another case, a young person asked to telephone his mother and again was refused.
46:12And if the rules to protect suspects are completely ignored,
46:16they're not going to be observed by the police.
46:19Can I just make one final point, which is I'm not talking about something technical.
46:23These rules are there to ensure that innocent people don't end up
46:27confessing to things they haven't committed and therefore being innocently convicted.
46:31Thank you, Harriet Harman.
46:32Mr Imbe, that is a point which I think struck many people, certainly struck me.
46:36I think in the robbery film, I think it was Mr Holmes, who got three years,
46:40he asked if he could have a solicitor, but the detective said no, you can't.
46:44Yes, that's right, and it's not, as Harriet Harman says,
46:47a fragrant breach of the judge's rules.
46:49No, there was another case where, in fact, it wasn't a robbery,
46:52where it was the siege man and he wasn't allowed to see his solicitor either.
46:56The siege man, in fact, did see his solicitor and so did the other man.
47:00Only after they'd been interrogated?
47:02Yes, that's right.
47:03That's right, because if the police officers think that it's going to interfere
47:07with their questioning, then, indeed, they can say no.
47:11But they've got to justify it afterwards, and not only have I got to know
47:14why they've said no, but so have Home Office got to know why they've said no.
47:17And if, indeed, that officer cannot justify that,
47:19then, obviously, we would take some action.
47:21What are the grounds for justification?
47:23If it's going to interfere with the questioning.
47:29And, indeed, in many, many cases it does.
47:31But I think there is a specific matter that I think arises from these programmes.
47:35A lot of people are arguing now that the best way of guaranteeing the rights
47:39of a suspect when he's being questioned by the police, of course,
47:43is to put it on videotape or audio tape.
47:46I think what this programme has demonstrated is the very great difficulty of doing that.
47:51If you have a drunk or some person who is in no command of his own language,
47:57he may, while his interview is being filmed, as this series did film in some cases,
48:03he may make all kinds of remarks about innocent third parties
48:07who've got nothing to do with the case,
48:09and then that tape could conceivably be made available in the court
48:12and damage the third party.
48:14It follows that the tape would have to be edited.
48:16That is rather a different point, Mr Griffiths.
48:18What I think the public are much more interested in, actually, at the moment,
48:22is this question of they're taking into a police station
48:25suspected of something and ask for a solicitor.
48:28They may not get one.
48:30Well, they may not get one, but the chances are that they will get one
48:33because in most cases the solicitor is of assistance
48:36both to the police and to the suspect,
48:38and I would like to take up that point.
48:40Harriet Harman said about people confessing to crimes which they haven't committed.
48:44There's nobody who detests that more than the police officer.
48:47There's nothing worse than getting a confession from somebody who's innocent,
48:52and that complicates the whole picture.
48:55There is nothing worse than that,
48:57and if one can prevent that by having a solicitor,
48:59then the first thing we should do is to have a solicitor there.
49:02Well, I'm very glad to hear that, and I think that it would be very good
49:05that if in future Mr Inbert made a directive to the officers in his force
49:08that in every case possible a solicitor should be present,
49:11and although you say it normally does happen, in 100% of those...
49:14Indeed, that is so.
49:16But is it not also so, Mr Inbert, that if you do have a solicitor too early,
49:20you may not get the truth out of a man which you might get without the solicitor?
49:24That's very true, but I think most officers realise the advantage of having a solicitor there,
49:31but they're also experienced enough to know the disadvantages sometimes to the person concerned.
49:38There was another point that Harriet Harman made earlier about training,
49:44and I think we ought to come back to that.
49:46I think that's one important point of the police philosophy,
49:50that the more training and the better quality training that we do have,
49:53the better police service that you're going to have.
49:56But you can, frankly, only get a pint out of a pint pot.
49:59You can't get a quart out of it.
50:01Right. Mr Griffiths, looking at the series as a whole, did you think about it?
50:08I think it was right to screen it.
50:10I think in general it has been helpful to police-public relations
50:14because it's shown the human face of the police service, foibles and all.
50:18I regret very much the many things that the series left out.
50:22What really does concern the public, in my view at the moment,
50:25are things like muggings and murders and violence against the person.
50:30They were not properly shown, nor the great work that the police do in dealing with them.
50:35Equally, public order, riots, pickets...
50:38Isn't a lot of that going on in Thames Valley, to your knowledge?
50:41The point is, although you were dealing with Thames Valley,
50:44the thing has been projected as if it were a proper expression of the police service as a whole.
50:49I don't think so, has it?
50:51The reality is that the BBC chose to exemplify the police in this particular way.
50:57And I must say that riots, pickets and those things were left out, as indeed was terrorism.
51:02Now, to that extent, it's not a general criticism.
51:05It is simply to say that what was shown was the truth, but very much part of the truth.
51:10We'll let Roger Grave answer this.
51:12Actually, that description is one I would adhere to.
51:15I agree with everything you just said, and that's what we've been saying all along,
51:18that it is only part of the truth.
51:20We claim no comprehensiveness, no definitiveness.
51:23This is simply an attempt to convey a series of revealing, hopefully,
51:27insights into life in a police station that is reasonably typical of most of the country.
51:31That was the decision.
51:33We don't claim absolute typicality for any of it, but it's reasonably so.
51:36You left out a lot.
51:38Of course we did. We left out corruption, we left out brutality, we left out racism,
51:42we left out all sorts of negative things for the police,
51:44as well as these difficult issues that you've raised.
51:47We know that, and what we hope we've done is establish a kind of beachhead
51:50that is closer to the truth than the previous attempts.
51:55That's all we're claiming.
51:57Roy, did you feel anything left out?
51:59Well, of course things were left out.
52:01And that is the problem that Alan Griffiths rightly describes.
52:04If you're going to have a series of television snapshots,
52:07which is what these were,
52:09then in between the snapshots are parts of life,
52:12and sometimes very boring parts of life.
52:14There was a sergeant on the station desk saying, of course,
52:17that what we spend most of our time on,
52:19nobody would bother to watch on a Monday evening,
52:22and that is the problem of allowing a service like this to be filmed.
52:25However, I'm sure the Chief Constable's right in saying that
52:28allowing it to be filmed was a wholly good thing,
52:30because, as I said right at the beginning,
52:32I think some of the more vulgar myths about the police have been exploded.
52:35But I hope the programme can be used, not just by one force,
52:38but by others to look at themselves
52:40and think about the more general criticisms,
52:42whether there ought to be a general rule
52:44which says solicitors must be made instantly available,
52:47whether what Lord Scarman said
52:49about officers exhibiting racist tendencies
52:52ought to be put into operation,
52:54or whether it ought to be forgotten, as the Home Secretary suggests.
52:57I hope very many police forces will think of the programme
53:00not as an absolute description of Thames Valley in action,
53:03but a number of examples from which we can all benefit,
53:06and I think the force has got a great deal to be congratulated for
53:09on allowing that to happen.
53:11Can I just make one point on this question of solicitors?
53:13It's very difficult to get a solicitor at 2 o'clock in the morning,
53:16and we've got to look at the reality of the situation,
53:19much as we would like them to be there,
53:21but we can't put off the interrogation of a suspect
53:23until 9 o'clock when the solicitor...
53:25The man's problem wasn't that the solicitor wouldn't come,
53:27it was that he wasn't allowed to ask for him.
53:29He did ask for him, and indeed he came,
53:31but he wasn't allowed to ask for him.
53:33Roger?
53:35But we did show... We corrected that.
53:37The omission of the solicitor that was asked for in the robbery,
53:39you asked to be corrected, and you did correct it.
53:41I don't think anyone knew that he was the solicitor.
53:43I saw him in the background,
53:45but I don't think people realised he was the solicitor there.
53:47What I wanted to say to you was that what you've just said
53:49is what we would like to see happen,
53:51which is lessons drawn from this,
53:53and congratulations not only to you,
53:55but to the individual officers and the members of the public
53:57who had the courage to allow their experience to be shared,
53:59because the public opinion polls found
54:01that the public liked this kind of cinema verite,
54:03and the next thing they wanted to see
54:05was one on the social services,
54:07which I suppose is one of the things
54:09that hits them most personally.
54:11Can you see one being done on the social services?
54:13Definitely.
54:15But it needs the consent of everybody concerned.
54:17I think that's what we've learned,
54:19is that the people in it
54:21must be really completely aware of what they're doing
54:23and feel good about it afterwards.
54:25The policemen who've said yes,
54:27the members of the public who've said yes
54:29were given that opportunity,
54:31but I think all of us were surprised
54:33by the intensity of the press reaction.
54:35Would there be enough drama in the social services
54:37to make a film about that?
54:39Yes.
54:41In your view?
54:43Our experience is that life is continually interesting
54:45and you don't need to soup it up to enjoy it.
54:47Eldon Griffiths and Roy Hattersley,
54:49if cameras can go into the police stations
54:51and tell us about life there,
54:53why can't they go into Parliament?
54:55I'm afraid that the House of Commons,
54:57which, after all, is our national legislature,
54:59has control of the cameras,
55:01just as we have control of Hansard.
55:03But I say this, Mr Kennedy,
55:05I hope that before that happens
55:07that we will be allowed to put on a cinema verite
55:09of the BBC.
55:11I'm all for cameras going in.
55:13I've always voted for it.
55:15I'll take the rest of the Thames River police force.
55:17Thank you all very much indeed
55:19and good night from us here.