Police E00 xx Complaint (Raw)
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00:00:00Beeping
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00:00:28Beeping
00:00:35There we go, here it is.
00:00:39All right, then, we'll have a seat there.
00:00:42I understand you've no objections to these gentlemen being in here with us while this is going on.
00:00:48OK.
00:00:50Can I have your name, first, please?
00:00:52Daniel Wayne Taylor.
00:00:54Daniel...
00:00:57Wayne...
00:00:59Taylor.
00:01:00How old are you, Daniel?
00:01:0117.
00:01:04Have you read the sleevelet?
00:01:05Yeah.
00:01:06OK, do you fully understand it?
00:01:08Yes.
00:01:09What it's telling you is that if you wish to make a complaint about the actions of a police officer,
00:01:14OK, what happens is I listen to what you've got to tell me.
00:01:18If it's just a matter of procedure that you're complaining about that you don't understand,
00:01:22then that can be explained to you or amicably resolved.
00:01:26If it isn't, if you're complaining about the actions of a police officer,
00:01:29then you're invited to make a statement outlining what the incident is that you're complaining about.
00:01:36This statement will be sent by me with a report,
00:01:39OK?
00:01:40He will then appoint an investigating officer,
00:01:43who will be a superintendent or above from this force or another force,
00:01:47who will investigate the complaint.
00:01:50From then onwards, there are several courses of action.
00:01:54Either the deputy chief constable can decide that there is no substance in the complaint
00:01:59and decide to take no further action.
00:02:01If he does do that, then the police officer can decide to take no further action.
00:02:07If he does do that, then the complaint will be referred to the police complaints board,
00:02:13which is an independent body that, in effect,
00:02:16checks up that the police aren't covering up these jobs themselves, OK?
00:02:21If he decides that he's going to take disciplinary action against the police officer,
00:02:24then that will be done within the force.
00:02:27If there is any suggestion of a criminal offence having been committed by a police officer,
00:02:32then the file will be sent to the director of public prosecutions,
00:02:35who will then decide whether any action is going to be taken.
00:02:38Yeah.
00:02:39OK. Would you like to tell me what happened, then?
00:02:41Well, it first happened when all the police went round Southcourt Club.
00:02:47Yeah.
00:02:48There was some trouble round there.
00:02:49Were you there tonight?
00:02:50Yeah.
00:02:51There had been a bit of a punch-up or something, hadn't there?
00:02:53Nobody, anybody.
00:02:54Come back, what my girlfriend knows, a policeman stopped me.
00:02:58He was all right. He said, get in the car for a minute.
00:03:01And he asked me where I'd been and that.
00:03:03And then he took my name and address.
00:03:05I gave him my name and address. He let me go.
00:03:07So after that, I went up Cockneal to look for her.
00:03:10Got to Chopper Cockneal, and a load of gang boys coming the other way.
00:03:14So I walked through the parkway, the long way round.
00:03:17Got halfway through the park, and somebody else was running towards me,
00:03:20a colour matey and some other blokes.
00:03:23I didn't know their names, you all can't miss, did I?
00:03:25And I stopped.
00:03:27I decided to stop because there was lights and everything, right?
00:03:30And I realised it's the police, but then my mum's already told me
00:03:34when the police are bad, just try and walk away or something.
00:03:38So I just sat there.
00:03:40Next thing I knew, Coppercrab told me, he goes, get in the car.
00:03:44So I got in the car again.
00:03:45I said, someone's already taken my name and address, and he said, shut up.
00:03:49He grabbed me just there, and I wore a necklace, one of them beady ones.
00:03:53You can see in the cells, and there's all beads everywhere.
00:03:56He grabbed hold of that. I goes, let go of it.
00:03:59He wouldn't let go. I said, let go of it.
00:04:02And the other cop was telling him to let go, I think, I'm not sure,
00:04:05but the other cop was agreeing with me, and he said, shut up.
00:04:08And he hit me there.
00:04:10You can ask the other cop, and the colour matey that was being picked on
00:04:13in the first place, and a few other coppers.
00:04:17He hit me just there.
00:04:20Would you recognise him if you saw him?
00:04:22Yeah, I can see him out there. He's wearing a leather jacket now.
00:04:27Out where?
00:04:28Just then talking in that office there to that woman.
00:04:30He's gone wearing a leather jacket.
00:04:32Oh, has he?
00:04:33And the other policeman said, would you talk to me?
00:04:36It's that one who hit me, went out the car.
00:04:38Have you spoken to your parents about this?
00:04:40I haven't seen them, have I?
00:04:42Do you want to speak to your parents before you make your complaint,
00:04:44or do you want me to take the statement now?
00:04:46Well, it depends what's going to happen, doesn't it?
00:04:48Well, it's entirely for you. This is why I say it might be advisable,
00:04:51in view of your age, if you ever were with your parents first.
00:04:54You can do the same thing in the morning, you see.
00:04:58OK, son. Well done. Thank you very much.
00:05:04You have to see an inspector.
00:05:06I want to know exactly what happened, that's all.
00:05:08Well, I have no idea.
00:05:09Well, this PC might know, mightn't he?
00:05:12Do you know who it was that brought him in?
00:05:15No, I don't. I was in bed, asleep,
00:05:18and I was woken up by one of the old chaps and told me what happened.
00:05:22He didn't tell me any names or anything else.
00:05:24He just told me the form.
00:05:27So I've come down to find out what it's all about.
00:05:29Well, I'll see if I can find out anything, actually,
00:05:32about what happened when he was brought in.
00:05:34But if you're going to make a complaint, you have to see the inspector.
00:05:37OK? But if you hang on, I'll see if I can...
00:05:39You can maybe start by finding someone who knows something about the incident.
00:05:42OK, I'll see if I can find the sergeant.
00:05:45That same who sat around doing nothing.
00:05:47OK, if you like, take a seat for a while and see what I can do, OK?
00:05:57No idea.
00:06:08Mr Taylor? Yes.
00:06:12I gather you wanted to see the inspector, but he is at a briefing at the moment.
00:06:16Well, we'd start with you, because you know something about the thing, don't you?
00:06:19Yes. What is it you want to know?
00:06:22Well, what I want to know is exactly why he was picked up in the first place.
00:06:26In the first place? Yes, I can tell you that, certainly.
00:06:29We had two incidents at Southcote tonight.
00:06:33One minor incident and one very serious one.
00:06:36Mm-hm.
00:06:38The serious one being that a group of coloured youths were chased...
00:06:44..all round Prospect Park by a larger group of white youths...
00:06:48Mm-hm. ..and frightened out their wits.
00:06:52In a confusing situation like that,
00:06:56your son was arrested as being suspected of being one of those white youths.
00:07:01Oh, I see.
00:07:04When we brought him to the police station... That's how it is.
00:07:06Yes, isn't it, Geoff? It is, yeah.
00:07:08When we got him to the police station,
00:07:10we established that he wasn't involved and then he was released.
00:07:13And that was it. Well, why was he struck in the face, then?
00:07:16Well, you say he was struck in the face, he says he was struck in the face.
00:07:19Yes, he told me he was struck. I believe him.
00:07:21I understand he has made a complaint to that effect. That's right. Yes.
00:07:24So why was he struck in the face?
00:07:26Well, as you say, you say and your son say he was struck in the face.
00:07:29I don't know whether he was struck in the face or not.
00:07:31Well, one of your officers is there.
00:07:33He said it's a good thing that you do make a complaint.
00:07:36I don't know what another officer has said to him.
00:07:38If you want to make a complaint, Mr Taylor, if your son wants to make a complaint,
00:07:42I understand that... I know he has spoken to Mr Clark, Inspector Clark.
00:07:46Mm-hm. I gather Inspector Clark has telephoned you tonight.
00:07:50Yes, he woke me up. That's right, yes. That's why I'm here at the moment.
00:07:53If you or your son wish to make a complaint about this matter,
00:07:56then you will have to see Inspector Clark.
00:08:00But I am involved in the incident.
00:08:03It has to be an inspector that takes the complaint.
00:08:06It would be wrong of me to take it anyway because I am involved.
00:08:10But we did have this before at one stage,
00:08:12trying to get hold of one of your inspectors,
00:08:14and it was always, you know, elusive.
00:08:16You could never get hold of them, for some unknown reason.
00:08:19I see.
00:08:20This is another sort of complaint thing,
00:08:22but they always tend to be... I can't see them, you know.
00:08:27I know the police don't like having complaints against them.
00:08:31No, of course they don't.
00:08:33But equally, if your son wishes to make a complaint, then...
00:08:36I don't think it's his right to do so, do you?
00:08:38Certainly it is his right to do so.
00:08:40Is it possible to have a word with that officer behind you, then?
00:08:42If you or your son is making a complaint, that complaint will be investigated.
00:08:46It would be quite wrong of him to talk to you now, wouldn't it?
00:08:49Can I have his number or his name, then, do you think?
00:08:51Yes, it's V.C. Constable. Believe it or not.
00:08:54Constable. Constable.
00:08:56Oh, well, there we are.
00:08:57You're not going to forget that, are you? No.
00:09:00All right. If that's his name, then...
00:09:03And I am Sergeant Barclay.
00:09:05Hmm.
00:09:09The only other answer is to get an appointment to see him.
00:09:14Because he's had Chapeau's Air now, hasn't he?
00:09:18Yeah.
00:09:20He wasn't prepared to be a witness, is there?
00:09:23Yeah, that's what he said. He said, I'll be there.
00:09:27He hasn't said anything.
00:09:29Probably could go in, too.
00:09:31Go and ask for an appointment to see him tomorrow.
00:09:36Yeah?
00:09:37Yeah, but that's the same as last time. Mum tried to get an appointment, didn't she?
00:09:40Hmm.
00:09:41They didn't do nothing.
00:09:42It was a hobby off, that's right.
00:09:48And the other chap we've got in this house is the driver of the Triumph 2000.
00:09:51He's the driver of the Triumph 2000, who tried to...
00:09:54Here's Mr Clark.
00:09:55..get me to leave.
00:09:56Mr Clark, there is a Mr Taylor at the counter
00:10:01who wishes to see you with his son to make a complaint.
00:10:04Is this the chap that was here before?
00:10:06I told him you were in this meeting and didn't know how long you were going to be.
00:10:09I don't think he quite believes what I've told him.
00:10:12I don't know whether you've got time to see him.
00:10:14Oh, no, I've just popped out to see what's happening now.
00:10:16If you can tell him that the meeting will probably be another 20 minutes or so, I should think.
00:10:21Before that's finished, then I'll come down and take his statement from him.
00:10:26Come in, Mr Taylor, please.
00:10:28Daniel.
00:10:30I understand, Mr Taylor, you've no objection to the BBC cameras.
00:10:37Well, I'm Inspector Clark, Mr Taylor.
00:10:39I spoke to you on the telephone earlier on this evening
00:10:42about Daniel's problem.
00:10:44Have you had a chance to read the leaflet?
00:10:48No, I didn't. I just want to find out exactly what's going on with that.
00:10:52No, what happens is an investigating officer is appointed by the Chief Constable.
00:10:57That will be a superintendent or above.
00:11:00And he will investigate it by interviewing all the people concerned.
00:11:04And then that officer will submit a file with all the evidence
00:11:08to the Deputy Chief Constable for his consideration.
00:11:12Do you now, therefore, or do you, Daniel, now, therefore,
00:11:15wish to proceed with a complaint against these officers?
00:11:20Do you want to say that he's done what he did to you?
00:11:23Yeah.
00:11:24Have you understood, Daniel, exactly...
00:11:26Because if you say anything false and you said that this officer has struck you
00:11:30and he gets put down or something like that,
00:11:33he's going to turn around and say, like I did, which he could very well do.
00:11:37Yeah, he did anyway.
00:11:38He struck you?
00:11:39Yeah.
00:11:40He grabbed you by the neck?
00:11:41Yeah.
00:11:42Right, that's fair enough, then.
00:11:44Right. In that case, I'll ask you to write a statement about it.
00:11:48I have to invite you to write it yourself.
00:11:51There we are.
00:11:53The thing you want to start on the top, man,
00:11:55what you want to start with is the sort of time and date, obviously.
00:11:58Can you remember about what time it was?
00:12:01Yeah, about quarter past ten.
00:12:03So if you start now, look, then.
00:12:07Okay.
00:12:26Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:12:28I think it would probably be easier if I write it down as you dictate it out to me
00:12:31because we're going to add all bits and pieces and all the time.
00:12:34Quarter past ten on... What day was it?
00:12:36That would be yesterday, but Wednesday.
00:12:39Quarter past ten on...
00:12:45Quarter past ten on Wednesday.
00:12:49Mr Crowther, would you like to come straight back?
00:12:58Sit yourself down here and chat.
00:13:01Now, I've been appointed by the Deputy Chief Constable
00:13:05to look into allegations which have been made
00:13:08by a youth named Daniel Taylor,
00:13:11who says that on Wednesday night of this week
00:13:14he was assaulted by an officer in Reading.
00:13:17From initial enquiries I've made so far,
00:13:19it would seem that that officer is Constable Thomas.
00:13:23PC Thomas was very...
00:13:26uptight, excitable.
00:13:29I don't know why, but he seemed to be.
00:13:33Grabbed this chap and said,
00:13:34come on, sit behind me, move over the seat, this sort of thing.
00:13:38And with his other hand he hit him
00:13:42round about the head and the face.
00:13:45Twice, maybe three times.
00:13:48And...
00:13:49What sort of blow was that? Do you know?
00:13:51I think it was a slap rather than a punch.
00:13:55I'm sure it must have been with an open hand
00:13:57rather than a clenched fist.
00:13:59It appeared to be.
00:14:02With you sitting there, presumably he wouldn't have been able
00:14:05to get much of a swing anyway.
00:14:11I don't know.
00:14:13I'm not sure, sir.
00:14:15I'm not sure.
00:14:16I know he hit him.
00:14:18I don't think it was in the way at all.
00:14:25Did you take any action then at that stage?
00:14:29Yeah, I think I shouted to Dave Thomas to leave him out,
00:14:33you know, leave him alone for God's sake
00:14:35and get out of the car, you know, to Dave Thomas, PC Thomas.
00:14:40Could you think of any reason for this happening?
00:14:42I mean, what was the demeanour of the lad?
00:14:45Was he truculent or was he gentle and quiet or what?
00:14:49He was quiet.
00:14:52He was quiet.
00:14:54He wasn't struggling.
00:14:57He was a bit surprised that he should be asked to sit in a police car.
00:15:06But there was no aggression on his part.
00:15:11I tried to calm him down a little bit.
00:15:16He burst into tears.
00:15:20In the car?
00:15:21Mm-hm.
00:15:24All he could think about was why the police officer should have hit him.
00:15:33And PC Thomas then came back into the car
00:15:40and did the same thing again.
00:15:45And he hit him again in the back of the car.
00:15:50This time he grabbed him by the jacket as well, but more on the neck,
00:15:57sort of the top half of the lapels.
00:16:01And he pulled him towards him.
00:16:05And it was then that his necklace broke.
00:16:10And he complained about that then, did he?
00:16:13Yeah. He said,
00:16:15what's all this about, you know, and he was amazed.
00:16:19And he said, you broke my necklace.
00:16:22And he was still crying, he was still upset.
00:16:26And from the actions of the lad and from what took place that evening,
00:16:30there was absolutely no reason for the assault?
00:16:33No.
00:16:34None whatsoever?
00:16:35None at all.
00:16:37OK.
00:16:38Well, it goes without saying, obviously, that I don't want you to go chatting to this.
00:16:42About this to other people on the relief or anybody else on the station.
00:16:46Yes, sir.
00:16:48PC Thomas then started, I would say, aggressively.
00:16:53The bloke had been no trouble at all, you know, there was no need for it, I didn't think.
00:16:57You know, what you'd been fucking doing and all this, like, you know.
00:17:01And the guy said, well, I haven't done anything, you know.
00:17:04At that point, PC Thomas grabbed hold of him by the throat area,
00:17:09pulled his jacket,
00:17:10which the bloke said had torn,
00:17:12got rather aggravated then.
00:17:15Bit stroppy.
00:17:17No sort of fighting or anything, but rather upset at the fact that he'd been grabbed hold of.
00:17:22At this point, PC Thomas started knocking him about the head.
00:17:28Was that a fist or open hand?
00:17:30I couldn't really see.
00:17:31I would have said open hand, but I didn't hear a punch or anything, you know,
00:17:36which aggravated the bloke even more.
00:17:39I think then PC Crowther told Thomas to get out of the vehicle, which he did.
00:17:48I think Mick Crowther was going to have a words with him.
00:17:50The bloke was in such a state then, he wasn't going to say anything to anybody.
00:17:55So I said, well, look, just get him down to the van and we'll sort it out then, like, you know.
00:18:00And at that stage, there was just the three of you there?
00:18:02No, I was also with another lad called Toussaint.
00:18:07He was a coloured youth who I'd picked up.
00:18:09Oh, this is the witness from the fracar earlier on?
00:18:11Yeah, I'd picked him up earlier, prior to arresting Taylor.
00:18:13OK. And what was Taylor's attitude like towards you? Helpful, cooperative, or was he being...?
00:18:18What, when I first got to him?
00:18:20Yeah.
00:18:21Yeah, he was just sat down in the bush and I just went out and said, right, you're Nick, you know.
00:18:24And he said, well, what for? I said, well, I'm in suspicion of this assault.
00:18:28Yeah, all right. And he just walked out.
00:18:31No problem?
00:18:32No problem at all, you know.
00:18:34And after he was released, I understand you had a little chat with Sergeant Barclay?
00:18:37Yeah, yeah. Taylor had said to me, you know, what about this bloke that's hit me?
00:18:43And I sort of explained to him the procedure of making a complaint.
00:18:47I then went and told Sergeant Barclay about it and my feelings about it.
00:18:51And I then got in touch with Inspector Clark and told him the story.
00:18:56Was the father pushing the thing or was it the son did you get from...?
00:19:00I think it was the father, really, then.
00:19:03You know, the boy had said to me that he wanted to make the complaint.
00:19:07Mr Clark saw him and it followed through then.
00:19:09And I think he went home and spoke to his father.
00:19:11His father was a bit anti, I suppose, a bit uptight about it
00:19:16because nobody was there to talk to him at that time.
00:19:19OK, look, I've got your duty report here.
00:19:21I know you've got to get away for this wedding,
00:19:23so if I can very quickly transcribe that into a statement for you.
00:19:26Yeah.
00:19:27And then we can let you get away.
00:19:29It was some time afterwards we'd been in.
00:19:31I think I'd already interviewed Taylor
00:19:33because he was taking a statement off at Tucson
00:19:35and he'd said to me he was stroppy when I nicked him.
00:19:40What, he... Thomas said this to you?
00:19:42Yeah.
00:19:43He approached me and said,
00:19:44''That bloke was stroppy when you nicked him, weren't he?''
00:19:46Oh, I see.
00:19:47No, he wasn't, Dave.
00:19:48Yeah.
00:19:49Yeah.
00:19:50OK.
00:19:51I think he was then aware that something may have happened.
00:19:54You took this to be a suggestion that you should, in other words,
00:19:57fabricate what you were going to be saying if there was a subsequent enquiry?
00:20:00Um...
00:20:02Well, that's all.
00:20:03I knew Taylor was going to make a complaint.
00:20:05I don't know whether Dave Thomas did or not.
00:20:07I think he had a good idea.
00:20:09Yeah, it was perhaps stretching a point.
00:20:11He made the comment and we've written it down.
00:20:13Yeah.
00:20:14I don't know whether Dave Thomas did or not.
00:20:16I think he had a good idea.
00:20:18Yeah, it was perhaps stretching a point.
00:20:20He made the comment and we've written it down.
00:20:22Right, so you're happy with that now?
00:20:24Yeah.
00:20:25We've read it all the way through.
00:20:27Just want you to sign it in the usual places, I've checked.
00:20:34First one.
00:20:37OK, I'll check.
00:20:38Thanks very much.
00:20:39I don't want you to talk to anybody later.
00:20:41No.
00:20:42OK.
00:20:43What's taking place here, you keep to yourself.
00:20:45OK.
00:20:46Thanks very much indeed.
00:20:47Thanks.
00:20:48Bye.
00:20:49Bye.
00:20:51Thanks very much indeed.
00:21:02Mr Thomas, we haven't met.
00:21:03I'm Detective Superintendent Sillans.
00:21:05I've been appointed by the Deputy Chief Constable
00:21:09to look into a complaint which has been made
00:21:13by a young lad by the name of Daniel Wayne Taylor
00:21:18after an incident which allegedly occurred last Wednesday evening.
00:21:22Yes, sir.
00:21:23Now, first of all, I've got to tell you, as you know,
00:21:25that you're not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so,
00:21:27but what you say may be put in writing and given in evidence.
00:21:32Now, the basis of the allegation, quite simply,
00:21:35is that he was arrested in Prospect Park by Constable Constable,
00:21:40brought back to a car which you were driving,
00:21:43and I understand you were sitting in the passenger seat,
00:21:47in the driver's seat,
00:21:49and that whilst he was in the car you turned round and assaulted him.
00:21:52Is there any substance to the allegation that's been made?
00:21:55First of all, I'd like to say, sir, that I was on my own in the car
00:22:00when he was brought to the car with two other officers.
00:22:05He was shouting and swearing at the time
00:22:07and was put in the rear, nearside passenger seat.
00:22:14The other officers didn't get in the car.
00:22:19They were talking outside and closed the door.
00:22:23As far as assaulting him goes, completely denied that.
00:22:29Constable Crowther says that as he put the lad into the car,
00:22:34he half sat on the passenger seat as he was doing it.
00:22:40In other words, they more or less got in the car at the same time.
00:22:44Yes, he was sitting in the passenger seat before
00:22:48and then he talked to him later,
00:22:51but there was a particular point in time when he wasn't in the car at all.
00:22:55Are you saying, in fact, that what actually happened
00:22:58is that you grabbed hold of the lad whilst he was sitting in the car?
00:23:03No, I grabbed hold of him while PC Crowther got out.
00:23:08He was talking to PC Constable and he stood up.
00:23:12I think he said something like,
00:23:14''Hang on, Mick,'' which is PC Constable's first name.
00:23:17As he got up, the other lad...
00:23:21..at the back, he tried to pick up...
00:23:23There's a small catch that you lift up to push the seat forward
00:23:26and he kicked it at the same time whilst, in his opinion,
00:23:29he was going to leave the car.
00:23:31Where the other two were, as I say, it was rather dark, I couldn't see,
00:23:35I pulled him back to stay in the seat and told him to stay where he was.
00:23:41You say you deny the assault part of it?
00:23:43Yes, I do, sir.
00:23:45I think it's only fair to tell you that...
00:23:50..that was witnessed by at least three other people.
00:23:55I don't think there were three people there, sir, apart from myself.
00:23:59There were two police officers.
00:24:01That's his two, sir.
00:24:03And there was another lad who was being carried around by Constable,
00:24:07Constable as a witness to the earlier incident,
00:24:09where they were looking for the...
00:24:11I was there, sir. I was in the car.
00:24:14They're all there and they've all seen what happened.
00:24:17I'm sorry, sir.
00:24:20Well, it's no good being sorry, old chap.
00:24:23It's not a question of...
00:24:26..one word against the other.
00:24:28It's not a question of anything like that.
00:24:30Sir, there'd been a scuffle in the car,
00:24:33where he was trying to get out.
00:24:35Apart from that, um...
00:24:38There was no way that I'd turn around and punch the guy in the face
00:24:41or anything like that, or any part of his body.
00:24:46I didn't say punch.
00:24:53Well, what do you suggest, sir?
00:24:55A slap. Two, perhaps.
00:24:57I might have slapped him on the side of the face, sir.
00:25:00You said you denied an assault. A slap's an assault, surely.
00:25:03Well, I thought you were referring to hitting him with my fists.
00:25:07No, I didn't say that, did I?
00:25:09Well, yes, I probably did slap him, so yes.
00:25:12He was shouting and screaming at the time, swearing.
00:25:15How many times do you think?
00:25:17Oh, only once.
00:25:21You see, the evidence so far indicates
00:25:23that you slapped him two or three times the first time.
00:25:26And then a second time, after you got out of the car and got back in.
00:25:30When I got out of the car, sir?
00:25:32Mm-hm.
00:25:33Well, when he was put in the car...
00:25:39..that was it.
00:25:40The story that I've got so far
00:25:42is that PC Crowther then shouted to you to get out of the car,
00:25:46and that you did.
00:25:48He was trying to talk to the kid, Taylor,
00:25:50who by this time was in tears and very upset,
00:25:52couldn't understand why a policeman had hit him.
00:25:55And as far as the other people are concerned,
00:25:57they say he'd been given no cause for this to happen at all.
00:26:02All I know, sir, was that the person had been arrested,
00:26:05as far as I understand,
00:26:07that he was getting to the stage of being violent in the car
00:26:11by kicking the seat.
00:26:13That's not borne out by the other people.
00:26:16Well, I don't agree that PC Crowther was in the car the whole time.
00:26:20Anyway, you got out of the car, yes?
00:26:22Yes, I did get out of the car.
00:26:24Yes?
00:26:25Yes, I did get out of the car,
00:26:26because there was another person running down the road.
00:26:29Nobody's mentioned anybody else.
00:26:31Nobody saw anybody else apart from you.
00:26:33Well, it's a gentleman on a racing cycle.
00:26:35PC Crowther, if he's so meticulous in his details,
00:26:37would have seen that, sir.
00:26:39Because he was right in front of the car.
00:26:41And I said, hang on, I'll check that person.
00:26:44He says he told you to leave it out and get out of the car.
00:26:47No, sir.
00:26:48I got out of my own free will to check a person...
00:26:50What are you suggesting, then,
00:26:51that these are trying to stitch you up for some reason?
00:26:53I'd probably say yes.
00:26:54Why?
00:26:55I wouldn't mind the cameras being switched off now, if you don't mind.
00:27:04In the meantime...
00:27:05Excuse me, sir, I'm five till five.
00:27:08No, I'm just going to say now, Alain,
00:27:10you don't come to work tomorrow,
00:27:13and I'll see you here at Reading Police Station
00:27:16at three o'clock on Monday afternoon.
00:27:18So I'm being suspended, sir?
00:27:20Not effectively, no.
00:27:21Not until Monday afternoon that decision's made.
00:27:24I don't make those decisions, you know that.
00:27:26OK, sir.
00:27:29And I would suggest...
00:27:30Well, I'm not suggesting that you're telling me lies.
00:27:33I would suggest that you go and rethink the thing.
00:27:36I want to know why four people say one thing
00:27:38and one wants to go the other way.
00:27:40If there is a reason for it, then let's have it.
00:27:42If there isn't, I don't know.
00:27:44It can be all sorts of things,
00:27:45whether it's domestic issues at home or what it is,
00:27:47or whether it's to a bloke who doesn't like him.
00:27:49It can be any number of reasons.
00:27:51I'm not here to stick a knife between the shoulder blade,
00:27:54there's no question of that.
00:27:56But it does want sorting out, and it wants sorting out properly.
00:28:06Tim, I've got the papers on the complaint
00:28:09that you sent me off on on Saturday.
00:28:12I interviewed PC Thomas also on Saturday afternoon.
00:28:16He admits grabbing hold of the lad,
00:28:18he admits slapping him around the face,
00:28:20but says that he was doing it to restrain him
00:28:23from escaping from the back seat of the police car.
00:28:26That's really not borne out by what the two other officers say.
00:28:30I think the answer is, if we go along,
00:28:32because obviously the dep is now going to...
00:28:34Or Mr Ross, as it is this morning, he's sitting in.
00:28:36He's going to have to consider suspension.
00:28:38I think that he hasn't got much alternative, actually.
00:28:40What made the two PCs come forward, then?
00:28:42That's out of the ordinary, isn't it,
00:28:44for those two to come forward like that?
00:28:47Well, again, you see,
00:28:49Thomas says that he's not very popular on his relief.
00:28:52He doesn't attend social functions,
00:28:54he doesn't have much to do with the rest of them.
00:28:56Sometimes he's ignored,
00:28:58and that PC Constable particularly
00:29:01is not very pleasant towards him, generally speaking.
00:29:05But, I mean, that's taking it a little stage further, isn't it,
00:29:09to say that somebody is going to come forward with a story like this.
00:29:13By choice, they wouldn't have put themselves in the situation.
00:29:16That's what made me think he's been a little bit out of the ordinary.
00:29:19It's not just a sort of simple fan.
00:29:22I mean, Constable was visibly, emotionally...
00:29:27I know. ..upset.
00:29:33So what we have is an allegation
00:29:38of criminal assault and criminal damage.
00:29:41How strong is the support of the two PCs?
00:29:45Well, they more or less go along identical lines as the complainant.
00:29:49The evidence that they give supports the complaint that's made.
00:29:53I mean, there are obvious...
00:29:55Well, I'd be suspicious if they were, I don't think, but the fact, yeah.
00:30:00Certainly, the main ingredients of the complaints
00:30:05are fully substantiated by the two officers.
00:30:07There is also another civilian witness to be seen.
00:30:10I've traced him and I'm interviewing him
00:30:12at Reading Police Station at 6 o'clock this evening.
00:30:14If he were standing by the side of the car,
00:30:16he may or may not have seen what took place within the car.
00:30:21I don't think we have any choice then.
00:30:27I think he's got to be suspended.
00:30:29It's just really a question of whether we needed the confirmation
00:30:34of the civilian witness, but I don't think we do.
00:30:37We've got a specific allegation,
00:30:39two police officers who are present at the scene
00:30:41who support the allegation.
00:30:43So, no, there's not any choice.
00:30:52PC Tomlinson.
00:30:53Hi, David. Would you like to come and have a seat, please?
00:30:59As you know, you were expecting Mr Sillence to come down.
00:31:02As you know, you were expecting Mr Sillence to come down
00:31:04and see you this afternoon.
00:31:06But he's got another commitment,
00:31:08so I've received some papers from the Deputy Chief Constable's office
00:31:12which I'll have to serve on you.
00:31:14And, in fact, it is a notice of suspension from duty.
00:31:26What's that?
00:31:27Will you keep that copy?
00:31:29It's a notice. I have timed it from 1500 hours this afternoon.
00:31:34And you can sign that copy as having received the original one,
00:31:38which you keep.
00:31:40Having done the official side of it,
00:31:43can I just ask if there's any other way I can assist you at all
00:31:47as a divisional commander?
00:31:49Because, obviously, when you leave the station,
00:31:51you're in effect cut off from your colleagues
00:31:54and the companionship you've enjoyed.
00:31:57And it is a rather salutary experience.
00:31:59And I just wondered if there's anything in the way of welfare
00:32:02or anybody else you want me to inform for you at all.
00:32:08Superintendent Paterson.
00:32:10Can I ring you back in two minutes?
00:32:14No, that's OK, sir. I fully understand what's happened, yes.
00:32:17And Mr Sillence will be carrying on with his inquiries
00:32:20and it will be completed and finalised as soon as possible.
00:32:25At first, he just seemed like he accepted being caught
00:32:28or something like that.
00:32:30He just carried on and the officer brought him up to the car
00:32:35and said, in you get.
00:32:37Was he quiet then?
00:32:39The lad? Yeah.
00:32:41It seemed that way until he told him to get into the car.
00:32:45It didn't look like he wanted to to me.
00:32:47Would you have seen as he sat down
00:32:49if he tried to kick the front seat forward?
00:32:52I think so. I wasn't so certain.
00:32:54It looked like he did
00:32:56or he kind of struggled to get up, something like that.
00:33:00You think he was struggling? Yeah.
00:33:02Was this before the policeman laid hands on him?
00:33:04Yeah, before the policeman laid hands on him.
00:33:06Before the policeman laid hands on him.
00:33:08Which policeman do you mean? Whereabouts was he in relation to the car?
00:33:11Well, he was in the car, holding the front...
00:33:13In which seat? Do you remember?
00:33:15I think it was the driver's seat.
00:33:17And he leaned over the seat and was holding him.
00:33:20That way? Yeah, kind of holding him.
00:33:22And the boy... It looked like the boy hit his hand,
00:33:25trying to tell him, like, get off me or something.
00:33:28Hit him about twice and...
00:33:30The policeman hit the lad twice?
00:33:32No. The policeman was holding the boy at first
00:33:36and he hit his arm...
00:33:38The boy hit the policeman's arm a few times,
00:33:40trying to get him to let go of him
00:33:42and he was just shouting, let go of me, all the time.
00:33:45Can you remember at any stage
00:33:48the policeman who was sitting in the driver's seat of the car,
00:33:53who allegedly assaulted this lad,
00:33:57can you remember him at any time getting out of the car
00:34:00and then getting back into it?
00:34:02No, I can't remember.
00:34:04Can you remember any of the policemen chasing after
00:34:07or calling after somebody who went past on a bicycle?
00:34:11No. No, I didn't see that.
00:34:14Are you saying you didn't see it
00:34:16or it couldn't have happened or it might have happened,
00:34:19but you didn't see it at all?
00:34:21No, what I meant is, after all of that happened,
00:34:25the policeman that was escorting me all the time,
00:34:28we went back to his car and that's all I did.
00:34:31See no person passing by on a bicycle or anything.
00:34:34Well, now, I just want to take that down in a statement for me.
00:34:37OK.
00:34:39One of the officers told him to get into...
00:34:43..the car, but by his actions it seemed he didn't want to.
00:34:47One of the officers had to push him gently into the rear seat
00:34:50on the near side of the car.
00:34:52It seemed to me that as soon as he sat down,
00:34:54he tried to get up several times but was not shouting.
00:34:57The officer in the car asked him again
00:34:59if he was one of the lads chasing my group, but he didn't answer.
00:35:03He was just sitting there, not answering,
00:35:05and the police officer who was driving the car
00:35:07turned and grabbed the boy near his right shoulder
00:35:10with, I think, his right hand.
00:35:12The boy tried to knock it away more than once...
00:35:17..and shouted several times, let go of me.
00:35:20This was the first time I'd heard him raise his voice.
00:35:23I didn't see any more because I turned away
00:35:25but did hear one of the other officers say to the driver
00:35:28either stop hitting him or don't hit him or something like that.
00:35:31I didn't see any blow struck or anything else as I went off into the park.
00:35:35Yeah. Is that it? Yeah.
00:35:37Is there anything else that you think we ought to add to it?
00:35:40Or anything that's wrong in there?
00:35:42Nothing else. That's all right, is it?
00:35:44Yeah. OK, then.
00:35:46OK, would you like to have a seat then, Mr Davies?
00:35:48Would you like to sit there, Mr Taylor? Yes.
00:35:50Daniel, can you come over to the side there?
00:35:52And I can sit in the middle. It's you I want to talk to, really, not your dad.
00:35:56I'm just a bystander. That's right.
00:35:58I thought you might feel more at ease if Dad was here, that was all.
00:36:02Right, I'm Detective Superintendent Sillence
00:36:05from the Thames Valley Police Headquarters
00:36:08and the Deputy Chief Constable has appointed me to investigate
00:36:11the complaint which you made the other night to Inspector Clark here.
00:36:15Now, I've seen most of the people involved
00:36:18and I have also got a copy of your statement
00:36:21which really needs extending in some parts.
00:36:26When they found you in the bushes...
00:36:28Well, I wasn't in the bushes. Bushes, bush house, down in the park.
00:36:32When they found you, what was your attitude towards the policeman at that stage?
00:36:36I just stood up.
00:36:38Were you rude or cheeky at all? No.
00:36:41Did you say anything? No.
00:36:43And you got in the car? Yeah. I was sitting down on it.
00:36:46Were you? Yeah.
00:36:48You were quite happy to get in the car? Yeah.
00:36:50And then he pushed me forward.
00:36:52He moved all his stuff? Away from me.
00:36:54Who's he? The policeman.
00:36:56Which one? The one who hit me.
00:36:58Where was he sitting or standing?
00:37:00He was sitting where he's leaning in the car, moving it.
00:37:04From which side? No, he's sitting down on the driver's seat.
00:37:07Sitting on the driver's seat? Moving it forward, yeah.
00:37:10So he moved some of his stuff from underneath your backside?
00:37:13Yeah, and if that seat was forward, then that policeman got in and shut the door.
00:37:17Why was that seat forward? Did they not push it back from when you got in?
00:37:20No, he was pushing me forward so that he could move his stuff.
00:37:23Oh, I see. So I had to lean against it.
00:37:26What was the stuff that you were sitting on? Do you remember?
00:37:29A book, I think, one of them sort of things, folders.
00:37:32Yeah.
00:37:34And I said, I don't know nothing.
00:37:36And he ripped my necklace out this time.
00:37:38This is all the same time? Yeah.
00:37:40Yeah, and he grabbed hold of it. I said, now look what you've done.
00:37:43He said, shut up and hit me.
00:37:45How was he holding you? Which hand was he holding you with? Do you remember?
00:37:49Like that, I suppose.
00:37:51Are you sure? Yeah, I think so.
00:37:53And how did he hit you, then, when you said, now look what you've done?
00:37:56He said, let go, boy, then. When my necklace snapped, he let go.
00:37:58He goes, now look what you've done, and he hit me with the same hand.
00:38:01With the same hand, do you think? I think so, I'm not sure. Yeah.
00:38:04OK, old lad.
00:38:08But it was the other policeman who told me to make a complaint.
00:38:11Who did? The policeman who was sitting beside him.
00:38:14And another one, there was another one standing outside as well,
00:38:18outside the car, with the colour boy.
00:38:20I didn't know that at the time, but when I got back to the station,
00:38:23after they said I didn't have nothing to do with anything,
00:38:26the policeman sitting beside him, he said to me,
00:38:30he said, what are you going to do about that policeman hitting you?
00:38:34And I said, there's not much I can do.
00:38:36He said, well, you can put a complaint to the inspector.
00:38:40I said, but that won't get me far, will it?
00:38:42And he said, you never know, I'm a witness,
00:38:44and there's a few more blokes upstairs that said they'd be a witness.
00:38:48And as I was walking upstairs to see the inspector,
00:38:51there was another policeman, and they whispered together,
00:38:54and another policeman nodded to me.
00:38:58What did he take that to mean?
00:39:00You know, he made the complaint.
00:39:02Cos I wouldn't have made the complaint otherwise,
00:39:04cos I didn't know you could make complaints like...
00:39:06What's got to happen now is that all these papers are collated
00:39:10and sent to the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions,
00:39:14which is the usual procedure
00:39:17where a police officer is involved in an allegation of a criminal offence.
00:39:22And here there are two criminal offences alleged.
00:39:26Firstly, the assault on you with the slap, which is a common assault.
00:39:33And there is also the possibility of a criminal damage
00:39:36to the necklace of the value of ÂŁ2.
00:39:42Now, the Director of Public Prosecutions will decide
00:39:47whether or not he considers that there is sufficient evidence
00:39:51to place the officer before a criminal court to deal with it.
00:39:58He has several options open to him.
00:40:01He can say that it might be best left to the Chief Constable
00:40:06to deal with the matter as a disciplinary matter.
00:40:09He might well say that the officer will be prosecuted.
00:40:14Now, although what you say won't necessarily be abided by...
00:40:20In other words, if you say,
00:40:22''No, I don't want him to go to criminal court,''
00:40:25it could be that he will go to a criminal court.
00:40:28On the other hand, if you say, ''I do want him to go to a criminal court,''
00:40:32it could be that the Director will rule against that.
00:40:35So either way, what you say might not be the final voice in the matter.
00:40:40What I feel is that he should get some sort of addressing down, you know.
00:40:45You can't just go around knocking kids about,
00:40:48or anybody come to that, you know.
00:40:50Yes, indeed. So what you're saying...
00:40:52Nobody should really lose their job because of that.
00:40:55The police have got a very hard job, as it is, you know.
00:40:58But, um...
00:41:00I don't really feel that he should be put down as such, you know.
00:41:06Do you feel the same way?
00:41:08You feel that...
00:41:09Well, I don't think you could take him to court.
00:41:12I just think he should be told off.
00:41:17Right then, David, you know,
00:41:19as a result of our telephone conversation yesterday,
00:41:22that this has been...
00:41:23The circumstances have been up to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
00:41:29And, as you know, he wrote to Mr Taylor
00:41:33and gave him the opportunity,
00:41:35this is what it amounts to, really,
00:41:37to take proceedings against you, if he so wished.
00:41:41Well, I've interviewed Taylor and he doesn't want to do that.
00:41:44And so the matter has now been considered by the Deputy Chief Constable
00:41:49and he's decided that he ought to be disciplined.
00:41:52Do you understand? Yes, sir.
00:41:54Now, the offence for which you're going to be charged is this.
00:41:57It's abuse of authority.
00:41:59And the charge is this, that on the 17th of September, 1980,
00:42:03you, being a member of a police force,
00:42:06used unnecessary violence towards Daniel Wayne Taylor,
00:42:10who at the time was a prisoner in police custody.
00:42:13Now, that's the charge. Do you understand that?
00:42:15I understand that, sir.
00:42:17Now, these are the questions that I've got to ask you.
00:42:19Do you deny or do you admit the charge?
00:42:22I admit the charge, sir.
00:42:24Are you sure about that?
00:42:25Not...
00:42:26Let's put it this way, have you taken any advice on this at the moment?
00:42:29Not really, sir, no.
00:42:31You haven't taken advice.
00:42:33I'd be duty-bound to tell you that perhaps you should consider your position.
00:42:38And I'm going to suggest to you that there it's open to you, if you so wish,
00:42:42to make an answer that you wish to take advice.
00:42:45In other words, you don't want to make a definite plea to the charge at this stage.
00:42:51Do you understand? Yes, sir.
00:42:53Now, I think, as you're obviously not familiar with this procedure,
00:42:56that it would be right for me to advise you that way.
00:42:59But it's a matter of you. If you say you want to admit it,
00:43:01then it's a question for you entirely.
00:43:03I think I'd rather seek advice on that, sir.
00:43:05You would seek advice, and that's why I'm going to write on this form now.
00:43:07Do you understand? Yes, sir.
00:43:09OK.
00:43:11Now, the next question I have to ask you is this.
00:43:13Do you wish, A, to select a member of a police force
00:43:16to assist you in presenting your case?
00:43:19I haven't decided about that, sir, either.
00:43:22I can tell you what the various penalties are
00:43:25open to the chief constable on a charge of this nature.
00:43:28Obviously, the worst possible thing that can happen is dismissal from the force.
00:43:32I suppose the next in order of importance is that you can be required to resign.
00:43:37You can be reduced in rank, if you've any rank to be reduced from,
00:43:41but that can happen to you, obviously.
00:43:43You can be fined.
00:43:46You can be reprimanded, or you can be cautioned,
00:43:50or obviously you can be found not guilty if you deny the charge.
00:43:53But those are the various things, the various options
00:43:56that are open to the chief on this one.
00:43:58OK?
00:43:59The dismissal and resignation, sir,
00:44:01would that be more of a likelihood if it was a not guilty plea?
00:44:05No. I don't think that's got anything to do with it.
00:44:08I don't think so, no.
00:44:10You've got to make your own mind up, have you not,
00:44:13as to whether you're going to plead guilty or not guilty.
00:44:16I would be surprised if the chief constable
00:44:19was going to allow himself to be swayed
00:44:24by the fact that you pleaded not guilty to a charge.
00:44:27I don't think you'd expect that in court, would you?
00:44:29No, sir. It was just a query.
00:44:31Well, everybody's got the right, have they not, to deny a charge
00:44:34if they think that they're innocent of it.
00:44:36But that's a question for you.
00:44:38Have you any idea at this stage of anybody that you might be going to
00:44:42to defend you, or what?
00:44:44Well, I think most probably I'd seek advice from the Federation representative here,
00:44:49or at Slough, one of those two.
00:44:54I would assume from your answers that you would plead not guilty.
00:45:02Well, I've been thinking about it for quite a long time
00:45:05since I've been suspended.
00:45:07I've never denied slapping the lad, at all.
00:45:11I really don't know what to do.
00:45:13This is why I've asked you up to seek advice.
00:45:17Whether you feel you would be better served by pleading guilty
00:45:21and putting in mitigating circumstances,
00:45:24or whether you still feel, as you said in the statements,
00:45:28that the other two of our lads are trying to stitch you up.
00:45:34See, if you plead not guilty, we've then got the opportunity
00:45:37of having all the witnesses there and cross-examining them.
00:45:41But I don't think we've got a lot to worry about.
00:45:47I don't exactly know what the definition of the charge is.
00:45:50Yes. The piece in contention in this charge, really,
00:45:56is unnecessary violence, isn't it?
00:45:59It's those two words.
00:46:03Had it been a charge of common assault,
00:46:09I think, you know, you wouldn't have a lot of problems, would you?
00:46:13It's unnecessary violence.
00:46:16The word violence in itself is probably not the correct word to use
00:46:22in the instance.
00:46:24The word violence always conjures up a right old fight
00:46:30or at least two or three good punches with at least a clenched fist,
00:46:35where a slap across the face may well be unnecessary in the circumstances,
00:46:41whether it's violent or not,
00:46:43is something that we could, in fact, argue with the Chief.
00:46:48I'll sort of read up on this
00:46:50and consult the other Federation members who do disciplines
00:46:56and I'll see what their consensus of opinion is over the next few days
00:47:01and then I'll come back and see you again in a few days' time.
00:47:04Toussaint, the independent witness, if you like to call him that,
00:47:09says they had to use a small amount of force
00:47:15to get him into the car because he didn't want to go.
00:47:19And again, you come to Craig's statement
00:47:23where he talks about Thomas hitting Taylor two or three times on the first occasion,
00:47:29yet Taylor states he was only hit once.
00:47:32Thomas, you come down further again,
00:47:34he comes down where again Crowther reckons that Thomas hit him again.
00:47:38Yes. After leaving the car and then returning to the car?
00:47:42Yes.
00:47:43There's a great conflict there between the two police constables
00:47:46that are conflicting with everybody else, doesn't it?
00:47:49Yes.
00:47:59That's right.
00:48:00You've got the two police officers,
00:48:02you've got the aggrieved and a civilian witness
00:48:05and the accused police officer and they're in two separate camps.
00:48:10Yes.
00:48:12The two police officers' statements tend to make the assault worse than what it...
00:48:16Worse than what the aggrieved says it is, yes.
00:48:22It tends one to think that there is some personal animosity, doesn't it,
00:48:27between the officers involved.
00:48:29It worries me.
00:48:30Which?
00:48:32It's leading us up really to the decision
00:48:35that we ought to advise Thomas to plead not guilty
00:48:38and have all the evidence out in front of the chief constable, isn't it?
00:48:42Really.
00:48:44The other alternative is that if we do decide on a guilty plea,
00:48:48that we ask right from the start, as a matter of mitigation,
00:48:53for all the statements to be read
00:48:55and then we can point out to the chief the discrepancies in the statements.
00:49:01Might well be.
00:49:02Which might well be. Might well be the course of action.
00:49:05It's rather difficult to get and have a go at two police officers
00:49:12in front of the chief constable
00:49:14when you've got one of their own colleagues sitting there accused,
00:49:17whereas if you've got the statements,
00:49:19you can point out the discrepancies on the statements.
00:49:22Yes.
00:49:26Brian?
00:49:27Yeah?
00:49:28Um, listen.
00:49:32As far as presenting goes, I just want to make one point clear to you
00:49:36so that you can mark your statements.
00:49:39The question of the ambiguities over the assaults,
00:49:43I've read it and I've studied it,
00:49:45and I'm not prepared to make a decision on what exactly happened.
00:49:49So, as I suggested to you some time ago,
00:49:51I'm going to read the statements to the chief
00:49:54but I'm not going to read them in their entirety.
00:49:57I'm going to read them from the point where the assault allegedly takes place,
00:50:02verbatim,
00:50:03because I think then it's a matter for the chief to make his own mind up.
00:50:06I'm going to leave the statement of the complainant to the very last
00:50:09because I think then I'm going to say to the chief,
00:50:11well, I think this is the most important statement.
00:50:14You see, I think the answer to it, Brian,
00:50:16and I'm not going to suggest this to the chief,
00:50:18I don't think it's my job to do it,
00:50:20I think the answer is that in the statement of Taylor,
00:50:22prior to the actual slap across the face,
00:50:25you've got mention of his head being pushed up and down
00:50:30when he's trying to get him to go across from the passenger side of the vehicle,
00:50:36if that makes sense,
00:50:37to sit behind him, as I read it.
00:50:40Now, it seems to me that what Crowther is referring to,
00:50:44that hasn't, well, if he's wrong,
00:50:46hasn't accurately described,
00:50:49is that, and then later comes the slap.
00:50:53Except Crowther has called it slaps
00:50:56when in fact the complainant says,
00:50:59he was pushing my head up and down.
00:51:01But I don't intend to comment on it that way,
00:51:03I'm going to leave it for the chief to decide.
00:51:05Is that fair?
00:51:06Anything you want to say?
00:51:07If you terribly disagree with anything, I'll sort of review it.
00:51:10No, no, as long as we push the complainant's statement and the interview.
00:51:16If you find you get a little bit overcome with what goes on,
00:51:18people tend to sit down and forget themselves.
00:51:20So if you can remember those words, when he addresses you,
00:51:23just stand there, all right?
00:51:25That's all you've got to remember.
00:51:26OK, sir.
00:51:27OK, and best of luck to you.
00:51:44OK?
00:51:47As you go in, are you familiar with it, Brian?
00:51:51Well, it's quite large.
00:51:53Well, it's marked up.
00:51:54You'll see defendant, friend.
00:51:56You take the far corner chair.
00:51:58Brian, go next to him.
00:52:00And witnesses, you'll see the chairs in front, Brian.
00:52:02So it's all marked up in there.
00:52:16OK, gentlemen.
00:52:47CRIME RESOLVED
00:53:05You've got enough cups, Alan?
00:53:06You'll probably find that the file has been made up in two ways.
00:53:16Whichever way the chief goes, they pull the appropriate letter out
00:53:20and, you know, sort of serve it on you.
00:53:24It saves a lot of messing about.
00:53:26Quite.
00:53:30I would have been inclined to go a little deeper,
00:53:33if it had been me, anyway.
00:53:38It's hard to know what's on his mind.
00:53:43I don't know, I guess, at all.
00:53:47The only thing to be assured of is the chief won't like it.
00:53:53The chief won't like this one, I can tell you. I'm sure of it.
00:54:00But we shall see.
00:54:04I did consider saying we're using the word caution,
00:54:07but I thought, no, that would be too cheeky.
00:54:10Stupid question, but can I go to the loo on my own?
00:54:12Yeah, of course you can go to the loo on your own,
00:54:14if you think I'm coming down there.
00:54:17How old are you, eight? We've got another thing coming.
00:54:21Very difficult lad to talk to.
00:54:24Very difficult lad to talk to.
00:54:27You see, he didn't come to us
00:54:29until after he'd had the charges served on him,
00:54:33which is, as you know, is well late, you know.
00:54:36It's one of those cases where, you know, you take it on
00:54:41because you are the focal point of the division
00:54:44and the blokes look to you for help.
00:54:48But, you know, I've made my points to him.
00:54:52Hopefully he's not going to get in bother again.
00:54:56Excuse me.
00:54:57Excuse me.
00:55:27Hi.
00:55:47Well...
00:55:50There's nothing one can say to that, is there?
00:55:53Didn't expect that.
00:55:56Well...
00:55:58Neither did I, I must admit.
00:56:01Although, you know, as you said, you first started thinking about that,
00:56:05but I didn't think...
00:56:11So what do we do now?
00:56:19We'll have to do an appeal, that's certain, you know.
00:56:22How long will that take?
00:56:24Three, four months.
00:56:31Is it worth it?
00:56:32Well, of course it is. It's got to be worth it.
00:56:37Whether you win or lose, you can't lose any more, can you?
00:56:45Thank you very much for...
00:56:47the way you presented that.
00:56:49It wasn't a very pleasant case, I know.
00:56:52Obviously.
00:56:54I think I might have a word with his representative.
00:56:58Well, I wonder whether you will put it to him, ask him.
00:57:01Do you want me to come back?
00:57:02No, no, it doesn't matter. Thank you.
00:57:05I've...
00:57:08required him to resign, I'm afraid.
00:57:14I don't think you'd have any choice.
00:57:15Well, it's one of those things, I'm afraid.
00:57:17It's not a very pleasant job,
00:57:20and I would have liked to have come to some other conclusion,
00:57:23but I came down on the side of the requirement to resign in the end,
00:57:28with effect from the 31st December.
00:57:32I think what I ought to do is to see his rep now,
00:57:38and I've got some sympathy with the chap
00:57:41because of outside problems,
00:57:45and see what we can do for him.
00:57:48Well...
00:57:50You won't automatically get thrown out of your house, will you?
00:57:53She wants to see you now.
00:57:55OK.
00:57:59Just me on my own?
00:58:01I don't know why, I don't know why, I don't know why.
00:58:07Yes, sir.
00:58:18Yes? Mr. Greaves? Yes, sir.
00:58:21Thank you very much for the way you presented things this morning,
00:58:26but I've had a quick talk with Mr. Ross.
00:58:32I took note of what you said about his other problems.
00:58:36If there is anything that I personally or we as a force can do for him,
00:58:44you must let him know, or you must bring it to my attention.
00:58:48Yes, sir.
00:58:50I felt that I had no alternative but to reach that decision,
00:58:56but I want you to know, as a man with a keen interest and responsibility for welfare,
00:59:03that despite having come to that conclusion,
00:59:07whatever help we can give him, we should give him.
00:59:11What I've just done, really, for that one offence,
00:59:16is to fine that man his livelihood.
00:59:20ÂŁ6,500 for 25 years, and I'm very conscious of having done that.
00:59:28In due course, what happens is that you're provided with a transcript of the hearing,
00:59:33and then you formulate your grains for appeal,
00:59:35which, as you've pleaded guilty, will be against sentence, presumably,
00:59:39and you submit them to the Secretary of State.
00:59:42OK.
00:59:44Unfortunately, David, as a result,
00:59:47it's been ordered by the Chief that you must tender your resignation,
00:59:50and so I've prepared a resignation here for you.
00:59:53I think it's only sensible, Brian, to get this done.
00:59:55It's from PC2384, David Edward Thomas, to the Chief Constable.
00:59:59Date of the day, let's see, it's on a Gen 46, subject is resignation.
01:00:03I tender here, with my resignation from the Thames Valley Police Force,
01:00:07the resignation to take effect from 31st December 1980.
01:00:11So I'm inviting you to sign it now, OK?
01:00:14A message to all personnel.
01:00:15Would you like to sign each copy?
01:00:17Anyone who hasn't paid for their Christmas lunch,
01:00:20will they do so today, please, as it is the last day for paying.
01:00:26I will repeat the message.
01:00:28Anyone who hasn't paid for their Christmas lunch...
01:00:41..if you sign there, it means that you've been given it on aim.
01:01:41SOMBRE MUSIC
01:02:00Yeah, not... Nothing's happening.
01:02:02Now, I'm going to see if I can find out who that...
01:02:11Shh
01:02:41You
01:02:43You
01:03:08You've got enough cups Ella you'll probably find that
01:03:13The file has been made up in two ways
01:03:20Whichever way the chief goes they pulled the appropriate letter a you know, sort of it on you
01:03:29Saves a lot of messing about
01:03:43You
01:04:13You
01:04:22Got enough cups Ella you'll probably find that the file has been made up in two ways
01:04:34Whichever way the chief goes they pulled the appropriate letter a you know, sort of it on you
01:04:43Saves a lot of messing about
01:04:59Know what's in his mind
01:05:07Anything be assured of as the chief won't like it
01:05:13Chief won't like this one. I'm telling I'm sure of it
01:05:20But we shall see I
01:05:23Did consider saying we're using the word caution, but I thought no that would be too cheeky
01:05:33Yeah, that's all you can get a little on your own if you think I'm coming down
01:05:43To talk to
01:05:45Very difficult not to talk to
01:05:48You see didn't come to us until after he'd had the charges served on him
01:05:54Which is as you know is well like, you know
01:06:00It's one of those cases where
01:06:02You know
01:06:04You take it on because you are the focal point of the division and the blokes look to you for help
01:06:09But you know, I've made my points to him hopefully he's not gonna get him bother again
01:06:39I
01:06:41I
01:07:08There's nothing one can say to that
01:07:12Didn't expect that
01:07:17Neither did I I must admit although, you know, as you said you you first started thinking about that
01:07:25I didn't
01:07:38Have to do an appeal that's certain, you know, it's three four months
01:07:44I
01:07:50Well, of course it is it's got to be worth it whether you win or lose you can't lose anymore can you
01:08:03Thank you very much for
01:08:06The way you presented that
01:08:08Wasn't a very pleasant case. I know
01:08:10obviously I
01:08:13Think I might have a word with his representative
01:08:16Well, I wonder whether you will put his unit. I'll ask him. Do you want me to come back?
01:08:21No, no, it doesn't matter. Thank you
01:08:24I have
01:08:27Required him to resign I'm afraid
01:08:32I don't think you'd any choice. Well
01:08:35It's one of those things. I'm afraid it's not a very pleasant
01:08:38Job and I would have liked to have come to some other conclusion, but I
01:08:44Came down on the side of requirement to resign in the end with effect from the 31st December. I
01:08:51Think what I ought to do is to
01:08:54see his rep now and
01:08:57I've got some
01:08:59sympathy with the chap because of
01:09:01outside problems and
01:09:04See what we can do for him
01:09:06well
01:09:09You won't automatically get thrown out of your house. She wants to see you now, okay?
01:09:17Just me on my own
01:09:37Mr. Graves
01:09:40Thank you very much for the way you presented things this morning
01:09:45But I've had a quick talk with mr. Ross. I
01:09:50Took note of what you said about his other problems
01:09:55If there is anything that I personally or we as a force can do
01:10:00for him
01:10:02You must let him know or you must bring it to my attention
01:10:08I
01:10:10Felt that I had no alternative to read but to reach that decision
01:10:15But I want you to know as a man
01:10:19With a keen interest and responsibility for welfare that despite having come to that conclusion
01:10:27Whatever help we can give him we should give him
01:10:31What I've just done really for that one offense is to find that man his livelihood
01:10:40Six and a half thousand pounds for 25 years, and I'm very conscious of having done that
01:10:48In due course what happens is that you're provided with a transcript of the hearing
01:10:53Then you formulate your grains for appeal which as you've pleaded guilty will be against sentence presumably
01:11:00You submit them to the secretary
01:11:03Unfortunately David as a result
01:11:05It's been ordered by the chief that you must tend to your resignation and so I've prepared a resignation
01:11:11Here if you I think it's a sensible Brian. Yes, it's done
01:11:13Yeah, it's from PC 2 3 8 4 David Edward Thomas to the chief constable date of the day
01:11:19The city solid gen 46 subject is resignation
01:11:22I tend to hear with my resignation from the Thames Valley Police Force the resignation to take effect from 31st of December 1980
01:11:30We've got you to sign it
01:12:00You
01:12:14If you sign that it means that you've been given it
01:12:30You
01:13:00You
01:13:04Yes
01:13:08Well, I gather you wanted to see the inspector, but he is at a briefing at the moment
01:13:12Well, we start with you because you know something about the thing. Yes
01:13:16What is it you want to know?
01:13:18Well, what I want to know is exactly why he was picked up in the first place. Yes, I can tell you that certainly
01:13:24We had two incidents at Southgate tonight one minor incident and one very serious one
01:13:34The serious one being that a group of colored youths were chased
01:13:40All around Prospect Park by a group of a larger group of white youths and frightened out their wits
01:13:48In the confusing situation like that
01:13:51Your son was arrested as being suspected of being one of those white youths
01:13:56How I see
01:13:59When we brought him to the police station, yes, isn't it?
01:14:04When we got him to the police station, we established that he wasn't involved and then he was released
01:14:08And that was it. Why was he struck in the face?
01:14:11Well, you say he was struck in the face. He says he was struck. Yes. He told me he was struck
01:14:15I understand he has made a complaint to that effect. That's right. Yes
01:14:19So why was he struck in the face as you say you say and your son say he was struck in the face
01:14:24I don't know whether he was struck in the face or not. Well, one of your officers there was a witness
01:14:28You know, he said it's a good thing that you don't you do make a complaint
01:14:31I don't know what another officer has said to him if you want to make a complaint, mr
01:14:36Taylor if your son wants to make a complaint, I understand that I know he has spoken to mr
01:14:41Clark inspector Clark I gather inspector Clark has
01:14:44Telephoned you
01:14:48If you wish if you or your son wish to make a complaint about this matter, then you will have to see mr. Inspector Clark
01:14:56But I am I am involved in the incident
01:14:59It has to be an inspector that takes the complaint. It would be wrong of me to take it anyway, because I am involved
01:15:05But we did have this before at one stage trying to get all the money when specters and I was always
01:15:11You know elusive you never get older than for some unknown reason
01:15:18You