Amanpour & Co. - July 18, 2024
What might happen between now and the 2024 presidential election in November? Joining the program to discuss is Mark Lotter, former communications director for Trump’s 2020 campaign, and Karen Kinney, who was a senior adviser for Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential bid. Cindy Lauper on her new documentary “Let the Canary Sing.” Leah Litman on the dismissal of Trump’s classified documents case.
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour & Company.
00:07Here's what's coming up.
00:09President Trump represents America's last best hope to restore what, if lost, may never
00:14be found again.
00:15The Republican National Convention cements the GOP in Trump's image, while the walls
00:20close in for President Biden to quit the race.
00:24From Milwaukee, I'm joined by Karen Finney, former senior advisor to Hillary Clinton and
00:29former Trump campaign staffer, Mark Lotter, then.
00:39Superstar Cyndi Lauper joins the program with her new film, her farewell tour, and how she
00:44keeps amazing us all time after time, and...
00:48Maybe the most important criterion is whether you are willing to sacrifice your morals,
00:53ethics, the rule of law, in order to benefit Donald Trump and the Republican Party.
00:59After a spate of convictions and reprieves for Trump, Michigan Law School professor Leah
01:04Littman tells Hari Sreenivasan how MAGA is transforming the nation's judiciary.
01:28Amanpour & Company is made possible by Jim Atwood and Leslie Williams.
01:34Candace King Weir, the Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poyta Programming Endowment to Fight Antisemitism.
01:41The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss.
01:45Mark J. Bleschner, the Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation.
01:50Seton J. Melvin, the Peter G. Peterson and Joan Gantz Cooney Fund.
01:55Charles Rosenblum, Ku and Patricia Ewen, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities.
02:03Barbara Hope Zuckerberg, Jeffrey Katz, and Beth Rogers.
02:07And by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.
02:14Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:16I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
02:18As the Republican National Convention wraps up its final day, it's feeling like a grand
02:23old party in more ways than one, a jubilant mood spreading throughout the RNC as a newly
02:29unified GOP rallies behind candidate Trump just after he survived an assassination attempt.
02:35It's very different within the Democratic Party, where President Biden is facing growing
02:39pressure to drop out of the race as concerns around his health and age persist.
02:45Party grandees like Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, all warning Biden that polls
02:50do not look good.
02:52We're now all too aware that a lot can happen in a week.
02:56So what could happen between now and November?
02:59I spoke to former communications director for Trump's 2020 campaign, Mark Lotta, and
03:04Karen Finney, who is a senior advisor for Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential bid.
03:10They joined me from the Milwaukee Convention Center.
03:14Mark Lotta and Karen Finney, welcome to the program from Milwaukee.
03:18Thanks for having us.
03:19OK, so I am going to ask you how it looks to you.
03:23There you are, Democrat and Republican standing next to each other.
03:26How is that unity thing working out for all of you?
03:30I think it's well, to me, I think it remains to be seen.
03:33I think we've seen effort, certainly this week.
03:37I'll say it.
03:38The Republicans have had a good convention.
03:40You know, we've heard some jabs and some harsher language here and there.
03:45But I think it's not just about what we hear this week in Milwaukee.
03:49It is in the days and weeks forward.
03:51Look, it's July.
03:53We've got quite a while between now and the election.
03:57Let's see if this holds.
03:59Yeah, I mean, I think obviously, you know, hopefully the theme continues.
04:03We want to talk about the policy, the economy, immigration, the foreign policy, the wars
04:09that are going on in the Middle East and Europe.
04:11And if we can keep it focused on the policy and disagree where we disagree, I think then
04:16everyone will be better for it.
04:18Well, I'm most definitely getting to the policy because that's what we do on this show.
04:21But first, I want to ask you definitely, Karen, look, this week ends with the walls really
04:28closing in on President Biden.
04:30Not only does he have COVID on top of everything else, but it's becoming more and more public,
04:35more and more senior.
04:36The internal Democratic officials, coupled with, you know, polls from grassroots Democrats
04:44that Biden won't make it in terms of winning in in November.
04:50What do you think, Karen, about the the level of discussion now around this?
04:54Look, Christiane, there's a couple of things I think we have to keep in mind.
04:58And I think this is factoring into the Biden teams as they're thinking about this.
05:02Number one, 14 million people turned out in our primaries and Joe Biden earned thirty
05:08nine hundred delegates.
05:09They are pledged delegates.
05:10So as long as those delegates are holding firm, the president has the nomination.
05:18So I think the question is, are those delegates going to hold firm?
05:21And I would also just add, we've heard a lot from some publicly, some kind of privately
05:28but leaking out conversations that have been had with the president and people voicing
05:33their concerns.
05:34But we've also seen groups really rally around the president.
05:38This week, he visited the Unidos conference in Las Vegas, as well as the NAACP.
05:43So there are some large groups that and individuals who are still standing with him.
05:47So I would imagine that the team is going to have to continue to kind of look at the
05:52data.
05:53I hope they're looking at all of the data and they're able to make a decision about
05:57where he goes next.
05:59And for you, Mark Lotta, and for Team GOP, this must be music to all of your ears.
06:05On the one hand, you've got this implosion at the top of the Democratic ticket.
06:10You've got a sense of chaos and drift.
06:12And on the other hand, where you describe it, you've got a sense of cementing the GOP
06:19as Trump's party, the deliverance of Trump from the assassins, a bullet, etc.
06:26Give me the mood amongst your party at the end of this week.
06:28Well, obviously, there's a lot of momentum, but I think there there's a lot of recognition
06:32that we still have four months to go until Election Day.
06:35A lot of things can and will change the map.
06:39The polls all look very good right now for for Donald Trump and Senator J.D. Vance.
06:45But we've got to run through the tape, as they like to say.
06:49And when it comes to, you know, obviously, whether it's Joe Biden or someone else on
06:52the top of the ticket, you know, I think one of the things that we're keeping a very close
06:55eye on is that the Democrats, you know, like to say that they are the defenders of democracy.
07:01And yet there really would not be anything more undemocratic than saying we're going
07:05to ditch the will of our voters because it's politically inconvenient right now.
07:10And so whether it's Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, we're also
07:16focused on the policy side of it.
07:18None of those candidates are going to change the direction of our country.
07:22They're going to stick with the same policies, whether it's on immigration, whether it's
07:26on taxation, energy prices.
07:29So really, the campaign is the same from our standpoint.
07:32We just have to change the name of the person or may be changing the name of the person
07:36who we're running against.
07:38So, Karen, if I may, yes, please tell me about the policy as well, because obviously Mark
07:43talks a good game.
07:44But we hear from the Republicans that they really want it to be against Biden and on
07:51the policy issues on immigration, on the economy, et cetera.
07:55What would your pitch be at this point?
07:58Well, I think it's important to remember that regardless of what's been happening in this
08:01conversation about Joe Biden, the grassroots work has continued.
08:06So in terms of the issue landscape, things have really not changed as much in terms of
08:11the policies that we're talking about.
08:14So for example, if you live in a state where you're afraid of losing your right to access
08:18IVF or contraception or abortion, that has not changed.
08:22And that is a fundamental difference between what Democrats are fighting for and Republicans
08:28are fighting for.
08:29So I think the issue is here, whether it's climate change, whether it is, you know, we
08:34don't believe in trickle-down economics, whether it is, you know, helping college kids pay
08:39for their student loans.
08:41There's a whole range of issues where we have just very different ideas.
08:45And I always like to remind people, you know, those folks who are knocking on doors and
08:49having conversations with voters, those have not stopped.
08:52And so the issue conversation continues and will continue.
08:57And as we sort out sort of the top of what's happening at the top of the ticket, you
09:02know, we're also really talking about very fundamental differences for the direction
09:07of our democracy.
09:07So, Mark, let me ask you, because one of the main issues for many in America are women
09:13and the rollback of Roe versus Wade.
09:15And it hasn't been a winning issue for Republicans in previous midterm and other
09:20elections. And Senator Vance is absolutely against abortion, calls it murder, argued
09:27against the need for rape and incest exceptions, promoted the ban at 15 weeks and
09:33questioned the prevalence of divorce, suggested women should stay in violent marriages
09:37even. I'm going to play this and talk to you about the issue of winning women.
09:42This is one of the great tricks that I think the sexual revolution pulled on the
09:46American populace, which is this idea that, like, well, OK, these marriages were
09:51fundamentally, you know, they were they were maybe even violent, but certainly they were
09:55unhappy. And so getting rid of them and making it easier for people to shift spouses
10:01like they changed their underwear, that's going to make people happier in the long
10:04term. And maybe it worked out for the moms and dads, though I'm skeptical, but it
10:08really didn't work out for the kids of those marriages.
10:11So, Mark, talk to us about that.
10:12That was obviously before he was picked as a vice presidential candidate.
10:17But Trump also realizes now that the abortion ban and the Roe versus Wade reversal
10:23that he campaigned for and nominated judges to reverse is coming back to haunt him
10:28politically. What do you think this ticket is going to do to attract women?
10:33Well, the president has been very clear he would not sign a national abortion ban.
10:37In fact, there's also no way that a national abortion ban is ever going to get passed by
10:41Congress. There just aren't the votes on either side to get their abortion wishes passed
10:47into law. And so that's why it's going to the people's elected representatives in the
10:51states and the states through their representatives can make the decisions in terms of
10:56what they think. President's also been very clear he supports IVF and the exceptions for
11:01rape, incest and the life of the mother.
11:04But I think, you know, while the Democrats all want to focus only on just this one issue,
11:09I think what you're going to see the president, Senator Vance and Republicans also talk
11:13about is a lot of mothers, a lot of families out there struggling to pay for groceries,
11:18struggling to pay for gas.
11:19They're worried that their their young daughters or themselves might be the victims of
11:25crime based on all of the 12 million illegal immigrants that have been let into this
11:29country under Joe Biden. So there are a lot of issues, I think, that are at play.
11:34Yes, there are single issue voters on the issue of abortion, both on the right and the
11:39left. But I think most people are probably it's one of their issues may not be their only
11:44issue. And right now they're worried about putting food on the table.
11:48Karen, what do you think? Because Kamala Harris, vice president, has been the
11:52administration's crusader is the wrong word, but you know what I mean?
11:56She's gone out and fought the good fight for for women and remembering that Trump
12:01himself was found guilty in a civil case for sexual abuse and the rest of it.
12:08Do you think the Republicans can get over that as well as Roe versus Wade?
12:11Do you think it's still an issue?
12:13It absolutely is still an issue.
12:15And I'll tell you why. Because for women in this country and for particularly young
12:20voters, we see that it's not just about access to a procedure.
12:24It is fundamentally about bodily autonomy.
12:27I like to say, Christian, we are fundamentally not a democracy if women don't have the
12:32same rights as men.
12:34And if we don't have the right to make those critical decisions about our bodies and our
12:38health care, then we're not equal.
12:40And unfortunately, what we've seen, you know, I'm a little I cringe a little bit at the
12:46states rights sort of argument because it has such an ugly history in our country.
12:51But think about what's been happening in the states for women.
12:53We're seeing women and doctors criminalize.
12:56We're seeing women lose their lives because of cruel and extreme practices.
13:01And one of the things about Project 2025 that I think people are so anxious about is
13:06that so many of the things that are in that policy handbook, if you will, are already
13:13being attempted to be implemented in the states, like cutting off access to various forms
13:18of contraception.
13:20So, again, there's a real concern that some of these policies, again, it's not just
13:24about the procedure itself.
13:26It's about what it says about value to women.
13:29I'll give you another example.
13:31Equal pay for women.
13:32You know, the criticism that we're hearing from some conservative circles about the
13:37women secret service members who were part of the former president's detail.
13:43Some are saying, well, you know, that's D.I.
13:46and they shouldn't have women.
13:48They're not strong enough.
13:49You know, so, again, it's also how you talk about women, how you respect women.
13:54And I just want to point out something on immigration.
13:56We've had 12 million people here illegally for decades.
14:01And what we're talking about is, again, two very different approaches to securing the
14:06border, which the president Biden has.
14:08And those crossings have gone way down.
14:11But also, how do we have a humane policy in terms of how do we have people return to
14:17their countries where that's appropriate?
14:19Not as we saw during the Republican convention this week with signs to just throw
14:25people out, you know, this rounding people up in mass deportations.
14:30I don't think people really think about what that would really look like in terms of
14:33having deportation centers, separating children and families, not to mention the
14:38economic impact that that would have on the American economy.
14:41If all those workers who are working for substandard wages, by the way, would be all
14:47of a sudden gone. So I want to also talk a little bit about foreign policy and
14:51democracy at home. Do you think I mean, you know, Chris Sununu, the governor of New
14:55Hampshire, who didn't want Trump to be the candidate, worked very hard for Nikki Haley
15:00now is backing Trump, basically told us in an interview that January 6 should not be a
15:06disqualifier for this kind of a high office.
15:10Mark and Karen, can you comment on that?
15:12Because, I mean, seriously.
15:15Well, I think what we saw on January 6th was terrifying.
15:19And it's still those images are seared into the minds of Americans.
15:23And a majority of Americans do not find those people who attacked our capitals.
15:28We don't call them heroes.
15:29We do think they should be held accountable for their actions, just as everyone should.
15:34That being said, you know, I've traveled around the country, around the world,
15:38actually, in the last several months.
15:40I was just in Israel about three weeks ago.
15:42And there is a lot of fear.
15:44We heard some of this coming out of the NATO conference.
15:47World leaders are very anxious about the idea of Donald Trump returning to the
15:53presidency. They're anxious about what it means in terms of America's role in the
15:57world, the nature of the relationships, the fact that he has praised dictators like
16:02Putin and what that means in terms of a realignment of forces.
16:06And so I think they're very real questions about what a Trump presidency would mean
16:12for American foreign policy based on Joe Biden's.
16:16And the other thing, Christiane, I just want to mention, you know, we talk about Project
16:202025, but we don't just have that blueprint to look at.
16:23We have the record of Donald Trump from his four years in office.
16:28And we know how he treated NATO and we know how he treated our allies.
16:32And we know why they have real concerns.
16:35Mark, let me put that to you.
16:37Sorry, I just I've got one more question I can ask.
16:40And it's a follow up on this.
16:42J.D. Vance, who is the most anti-Ukraine and the most isolationist senator in
16:48Congress, specifically stayed away from that stuff, I believe, in his speech.
16:54However, today, the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, has decided to praise the
17:01choice of J.D. Vance.
17:02And here's what he said.
17:05He's in favor of peace, in favor of ending the assistance that's been provided.
17:10And we can only welcome that because that's what we need to stop pumping Ukraine
17:17full of weapons. And then the war will end.
17:19Well, the weapons that are being pumped into and against Ukraine are Russian weapons.
17:23But be that as it may, what do you think a Trump administration, if it gets in, will
17:31do for the defense of Ukraine and the defense of democracy, knowing that the majority of
17:36Congress believes in defending and supplying Ukraine, as do a working majority of the
17:42American people still?
17:43Well, and obviously, I don't speak for the former president, nor do I speak for his
17:47campaign. But he's been very clear that he thinks that both sides need to come together
17:52and start talking. Every war in history has ended at a negotiation table, even those
17:58that ended with unconditional surrender.
18:00So you've got to get the two sides talking.
18:03We've got to figure out a way to get the killing to stop, which is what the president
18:07has been very clear about.
18:09And the fact that he holds so much leverage, the president of the United States holds so
18:14much leverage in terms of forcing, whether it's Ukraine and or Russia, to come to the
18:20table and let's figure out a way to stop the violence, stop the death on this issue is
18:27something that I think the world should be cheering.
18:29We should be cheering for peace.
18:31And I think that's what you would see from Donald Trump.
18:34And I'll leave the details of how he would do that, obviously, up to the former president.
18:38I can't leave you without questioning unconditional surrender.
18:41Do you think that's appropriate as a choice for Ukraine?
18:45Both of you. I'm not suggesting that as an option in the future.
18:50I'm saying that even past wars that were decided under unconditional surrender, there
18:55was also negotiation in history at that time.
18:59And I would just offer that what we hear from Russia in terms of negotiation is really
19:04code for having Ukraine give up land and give up part of its sovereignty.
19:10And we absolutely can't let that happen because there is no way that Putin will stop at
19:16Ukraine. He will continue his march through to Europe.
19:19Mark Lutter, Karen Finney, thank you both so much for joining us from Milwaukee.
19:25And now from the Republicans and Democrats to a very different kind of party, the one
19:30woman charisma bomb that is Cyndi Lauper.
19:33Launching into musical history with her debut album, She's So Unusual, back in 1983,
19:39Lauper quickly became a star and just as quickly used her voice for activism, speaking
19:44openly about sexism and the AIDS crisis at a time when neither issue was popular.
19:51Now, preparing for retirement with a farewell tour and with a new documentary streaming
19:56on Paramount Plus called Let the Canary Sing, it is clear her voice is just as loud as
20:02ever. Everyone always said, what will you do if you fail?
20:08And all of a sudden we all heard it.
20:21We went to Catholic school.
20:24She would mouth off and she just wasn't going to take from people, period.
20:27It really built up how stubborn I could be.
20:32And she joined me from New York with more about what makes her tick.
20:36Cyndi Lauper, welcome to the program.
20:39Hi, I'm a big fan.
20:40I watch you on PBS.
20:43Oh, that's great.
20:44Great. Well, I'm a big fan, too.
20:46And I know that you had a fabulous concert here in London and you're getting ready for a
20:51farewell tour. And you have this new documentary, Let the Canary Sing.
20:57You have some, some have called you an overnight sensation.
21:00I know, though, from the film that it took you 15 years to become an overnight sensation.
21:06More, more than that.
21:07That's not true.
21:08Not true. That's my, that's my vocal teacher.
21:12She says that. But the truth is, it took 10 years.
21:16Ten. OK, ten.
21:17Because I started or nine.
21:21But, you know, Billie Holiday always said, never let a good story get, never let the truth
21:28get in the way of a good story.
21:30Well, Cyndi Lauper, the editors left it in.
21:33So I am I'm going to I'm going to go for that.
21:36But 10 years is good as well.
21:38But Patti LaBelle, you know, who, you know, you you you sang with basically says Cyndi does
21:44what she wants to do.
21:46And, you know, it's not always easy for a woman in any business, much less in the music
21:51business. How did you get to be that person?
21:55Were you always the person who got to do what she wanted to do?
21:59Or was that a struggle?
22:02Well, you know, it wasn't like it was like, hi, what's your name?
22:07Sure, you can do what you want to do.
22:10But no, I I had to, you know, I didn't take every opportunity that came my way because
22:17it wasn't an opportunity to me.
22:20I sing. Because it makes me feel free and I didn't feel free if I had to stand and sing
22:32to someone else's beat, someone else's rhythm, someone else's speech, someone else, someone
22:39else, someone else all the time.
22:42That's not who I am.
22:44And that's not why I sing or even would work so hard to be able to sing, because my whole
22:53career, including the beginning, I had doctors and people tell me, well, you'll probably
23:00never sing again.
23:02And maybe you should go to the softer music because you're too small.
23:08You're a woman.
23:09You're white. These things not going to work for you.
23:14And so I just had to learn as much as I could.
23:21And I wanted to make music that was inclusive.
23:27I wanted to make collaborations with the people that I loved.
23:37And and when I was in situations where it was a compromise, it also gave me an opportunity
23:49to learn about how I could make that my own, too.
23:55Famously, you made Girls Just Want to Have Fun yours out of somebody else's because it
24:01was written by a guy called Robert Hazard.
24:03He wrote the original. And I want you once we play the clip to explain what the original
24:09meant and how you changed it.
24:25The phone rings in the middle of the night, my body yells, what you gonna do with your
24:37life? Oh, Daddy D, you know you're still number one, but girls, they want to have fun, oh
24:46girls just want to have, that's all they really want, want to have fun.
24:55First of all, it was Robert Hazard was having success in Philly.
25:02He had this really cool song, Escalator of Life, and and it was kind of Bowie-esque.
25:11And I know, look, everybody I know is a huge fan of Bowie.
25:15I grew up listening to him.
25:16I always loved him.
25:18So I thought, wow, that's so cool.
25:21And the girls just want to have fun thing.
25:24It was written by a guy.
25:26So, of course, it's a guy's approach.
25:28And, you know, and I didn't understand exactly what the heck I was supposed to do at first.
25:34You know, I was singing that and I said, well, listen, this part won't work because that
25:39has that kind of work with me and this part, you know.
25:43And so they said, well, you could make it, change it, make it your own, which is what
25:50we wound up doing to a lot of the songs on that album to create a sound, a sound that
25:56was uniquely our own.
25:59You know, everything you wind up doing or me, it becomes a collaborative.
26:05It's an artist collaborative because you're working with people.
26:10And the biggest thing I had to learn is how to talk to people, how to say things so that
26:19you don't freak them out, you get them inspired.
26:23And so I figured out a way by listening to what they, Rob and Eric, did and what Rick
26:33did and what Rick had, all these songs.
26:36And as they came together, there were great things happening on the street, the sound
26:42of the drum, the sound of the gated snare that was so big in the 80s and in the
26:48beginning when it first came over and started from the street.
26:53And I wanted to have that part of the sound because I guess in the end, I figure music
27:01is a lot like cooking, right?
27:03It's a lot of ingredients that you got to put in.
27:06And I just wanted it to sound like New York, like who I was.
27:10And they kept saying, you got to make a girl's anthem.
27:14But they didn't realize who they were talking to, because I put my training bra at the
27:20first demonstration by the Alice in Wonderland statue for women's rights.
27:26You know, well, remember that?
27:28I do. I do.
27:29And interestingly, after you, you know, after this song came out, you became, you know,
27:35one of a few people on sort of Women of the Year on one of the magazines, Gloria Steinem
27:39called you a feminist icon.
27:41But, you know, all of this before or came after your life was definitely not fun.
27:47From what I gather from your documentary, you talk about a very difficult childhood.
27:53You loved your mother.
27:54Your mother was fantastic.
27:55You love your sister.
27:57She was fantastic.
27:58But you had real problems with the men in the household.
28:02And you had to leave home.
28:03Well, I loved my baby brother.
28:05And your brother.
28:06I loved my baby brother.
28:06And your baby brother, who's in the dock.
28:09When he came in, the poor thing, he still talks to me, too.
28:12But when I saw him and I was five and he was an infant, I just saw a big baby dog coming
28:19in. You know, I must have dropped him a few times because they tried to carry him and
28:23change his diapers and almost killed him a few times.
28:27But he still talks to me.
28:29So that's good.
28:30But yeah, it was look, it's it's.
28:34I can't I came from an immigrant family.
28:40I am the second generation.
28:42My mother was the first American generation.
28:46And it was very important for them to assimilate and, you know, not to I never learned
28:56Italian. And then when I got older, they said, why didn't you learn Italian?
28:59And I was like, well, you know, but it was.
29:03It. It was a Sicilian household, and, you know, as you learn history, you understand
29:14cultures and the culture was not exactly promoting women.
29:21And then, of course, they put you in a Catholic school again, not exactly promoting
29:28women. And then they you learn about laws, not exactly promoting women.
29:39So I watched my mom and the women, because I was a female child, of course, you're
29:46going to notice the civil rights thing that they didn't really have a lot of rights.
29:55In fact, it's only 50 years now that we were allowed to have our own credit card and
30:03bank account without your father or your husband.
30:07Think about that.
30:08I mean, I know that you remember and of course, you know, your history.
30:13I wanted to be an artist.
30:15I didn't want to cook and clean.
30:17And that's what they told me I had to do all my life.
30:19I mean, you do do that, but goodness sakes.
30:22And boy, did you become an artist and you defied all those expectations.
30:27And sometime after your first first album, you came up with True Colors.
30:33And I want to play a little bit of the song and then talk a little bit about it.
30:38And I see your true colors shining through, I see your true colors, and that's why I love you, so don't be afraid.
30:53You know, color was very much associated with the LGBTQ, with the queer community, and that
31:00you were incredibly supportive.
31:04Tell me about True Colors, because it was released at the height of the AIDS crisis.
31:09And one of your close, close friends sadly died of it.
31:14Yes, and we weren't, you know, it was a really odd time then.
31:22The president at the time did not acknowledge this pandemic epidemic.
31:31And they just called it the gay disease, which clearly it affected the gay community.
31:41But anybody can get AIDS.
31:46And I, I just, you know, I had a close, close friend and he was sick.
31:54And I, it's funny, he asked me to write a song for him, you know, because Dionne Warwick did.
32:02That's what Friends are for, Dionne Warwick, John, Elton John.
32:07You know, I just remember those two so vividly.
32:12There's two other great artists in there, too.
32:16And he said, write a song, you know, so I wrote Boy Blue, which, you know, I discovered
32:23later on that you can't pour your heart out and your liver and expect repetitive play.
32:30So I also did True Colors for the people that survived him.
32:38You know, me, my friend Carl, who Carl and Gregory lived downstairs from me.
32:49And when all of that happened, I had moved downtown.
32:58I had not seen them all the time, all the time.
33:01But when I did see them and they did the She Bop video with me and Miss Diana, first transgender in a video like that.
33:11You know, of course. It was it was an interesting time and I wanted the song.
33:23I knew it was a healing song and it was a hard thing for me to learn.
33:30You had to learn the power of a whisper.
33:33And that was a big learning curve for me, but I did it anyway.
33:41And I kept going inside and inside and trying to find the place for it.
33:48And it it did affect a lot of people.
33:51It's been an incredible career.
33:53So many anthems that appeal to so many people in so many genders and your message of inclusivity all the time.
34:00I just wonder very shortly for our last our last answer, how will the farewell tour be done?
34:07What is it you want to accomplish with that?
34:09If I might put it that way.
34:12I want to bring people together instead of having us all separate.
34:18I want us to come together.
34:21We're human beings and I'm in the business of the humanities, so I want to bring people together.
34:29And, you know, I've been able over the years to do different things like the True Colors Foundation, which is True Colors United now, which the need became so great.
34:41It was it became international and they work with the UN and and the girls just want fundamental rights.
34:51We we made one hundred fifty five thousand dollars, which we donated to different organizations that give women access to safe and legal abortions and prenatal care and postnatal care and cancer screening.
35:10I don't know how we who occupy half of the globe have become second class citizens and don't have the health care that we need or the autonomy over our own bodies.
35:25Kind of creepy to me.
35:26But I'm hoping with this tour I can bring people together.
35:33I can contribute and help and make things a little better instead of the separation and the big divide.
35:44Cindy Lopper, thank you so much for being with us.
35:50And the Let the Canary Sing Companion album is available now from Legacy Recordings.
35:55Now, earlier this week, after the assassination attempt and as the Republican convention got underway, the Trump appointed federal judge Aileen Cannon dismissed the classified documents case against him.
36:06Over ninety three pages, she cited her doubts about the appointment of special counsel Jack Smith.
36:12The backlash was fast and furious, with many criticizing what they called her delay strategy to piece together how this could impact Trump's presidential hopes and the integrity of America's legal system.
36:24Hari Sreenivasan spoke with Leah Littman, law school professor of the University of Michigan.
36:31Christiane, thanks. Leah Littman, thanks so much for joining us.
36:34Just recently, there was a very consequential case where a Trump appointed judge, Aileen Cannon, dismissed the charges against him in the documents case.
36:43Tell us why this case was so important, why the judge's ruling was as significant as it is.
36:52It's definitely novel in that there have been special counsels appointed like Jack Smith for over a century in the United States.
37:00That includes many of the special counsels that were appointed by Watergate.
37:04And so her ruling unsettles that practice and I think is strikingly novel in that respect, basically concluding that what we have been doing for over a century is apparently no longer good enough in her eyes.
37:15And it unsettles precedent in the process, of course, because thus far, all of the courts to have considered the issue have concluded that special counsels are lawful.
37:25And that includes the United States Supreme Court, because in United States versus Nixon, the court heard a case that involved a Watergate special counsel.
37:35And the court described how that special counsel had been appointed pursuant to various federal laws that Judge Cannon all of a sudden declared don't actually allow for special counsels at all.
37:46One of the interesting connections that people are making with her decision is just a few weeks ago at the Supreme Court, Clarence Thomas wrote a concurring opinion where he referenced this very idea.
37:59And here we are just a couple of weeks later on the day that the RNC was starting, where Judge Cannon cites his very statement.
38:12Why is that more than coincidence?
38:15I think Justice Thomas's separate writing in the immunity case really was a way of encouraging Judge Cannon to pull this trigger and conclude that special counsels were not lawfully appointed.
38:27And I think he gave that position a patina of legitimacy that it doesn't deserve and didn't have because, again, up until that point, no court that has considered the issue remotely thought it plausible that Congress had never by law authorized the appointment of special counsels.
38:45And so he basically said, you know, come on, Eileen, and, you know, winked and nodded in that direction.
38:52And she picked up the hint.
38:54In this specific case, Jack Smith is going to appeal, correct?
38:59Absolutely. He has already noticed an appeal, and the Solicitor General of the United States, the top lawyer for the United States, approved his appeal.
39:07And so that's going to happen.
39:09OK, when Jack Smith appeals, what is he likely to point out?
39:15Is he looking at a pattern of her actions?
39:18Is he looking specifically at just the clause about the constitutionality here when he essentially takes it to her bosses, so to speak?
39:25So there's definitely a pattern here of Judge Cannon bending over backwards in order to benefit Donald Trump, occasionally in quite lawless ways that the very conservative U.S.
39:35Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit has reversed before.
39:38But my guess is that Jack Smith will focus this particular appeal on the very narrow question, although it's not really that narrow at all, about whether special counsels are legal.
39:49I think he has a very strong case.
39:51Again, every court, every judge that has considered the issue up until now has sided with the lawfulness of special counsels.
39:59And so I think he is more likely to focus on the particular issue in this appeal rather than to point out Judge Cannon's long history in this case of trying to give a leg up to Donald Trump.
40:11What is the threshold that must be crossed for an appellate court to say, we don't like your behavior in this, we either, here are the steps that we can take to remedy that?
40:22Yes. So I would say there are really a few things that are on the table.
40:26One is that an appellate court might choose to what's called reassign a case to another judge.
40:32That is, if they conclude that a judge has a pattern of showing bias or can't be trusted in a case, then they might redirect the case to another judge.
40:42That's very rare and an extraordinarily high bar.
40:46Is it possible in this case?
40:47Do I think it would be warranted?
40:48Yes. Am I expecting the conservative 11th Circuit to actually do that?
40:54Not really.
40:55But I also think that Judge Cannon's behavior in this case should matter to two other audiences as well.
41:01You mentioned, of course, that federal judges have life tenure, but they can also be impeached and investigated.
41:08Congress can hold hearings.
41:10And there is a world in which a Democratic Senate or Democratic House actually looked into this matter and concluded that Judge Cannon has showed such a dissent bias and disregard for the law that impeachment or something else might be worth considering.
41:26And the third audience, I would say, is the public at large.
41:29You know, we are at an incredibly important moment for the future of our institutions and American democracy.
41:35And I think it's very important for people to understand the stakes of the upcoming presidential election as far as who will be sitting on the federal courts, you know, one of the three major institutions within the federal government.
41:48Let's talk about a couple of the other cases that the president has faced recently.
41:52I mean, the Supreme Court weighed in on essentially the amount of immunity that should be granted and the amount of leeway that should be granted in the acts, the official acts carried out by the president.
42:06What's that do to the other cases that he's facing?
42:10Let's tackle first the election interference case in Georgia.
42:13So the Supreme Court's immunity ruling will have, I think, the greatest effects on both the election interference case in Georgia, as well as the election interference case in D.C.
42:23in federal court. And that's because the U.S.
42:26Supreme Court has already said that some of the bases for those prosecutions cannot actually be used to prosecute the former president.
42:36They also added that some of the other allegations in the various indictments, such as the president's attempt to pressure the vice president to throw out lawfully cast votes, that those acts are entitled to a presumption of immunity and that the government would bear a difficult burden in order to justify being able to prosecute the former president on those grounds as well.
42:59And so the expansive immunity that the court announced, as well as its application of that immunity to the particular election interference cases, I think, suggests that that ruling will have the most effect on the election interference cases, which in many respects are the most serious.
43:17In addition to the immunity ruling, five of the justices who were in the majority adopted an evidentiary privilege, basically saying prosecutors cannot introduce any evidence of any official acts that are themselves entitled to immunity.
43:32They cannot probe those official acts with other evidence. They cannot inquire into the motives the president had in performing those official acts. And that will eliminate some possible evidence that prosecutors in all of these cases might have used against the former president.
43:48Look, Donald Trump has been found guilty in a criminal procedure in New York, in the Hush Money trial, and Judge Juan Marchand has put the sentencing for that trial on hold. Why did he do that?
44:03In part so that the prosecution and defense can engage with arguments about the extent to which the Supreme Court's immunity ruling potentially affects that conviction as well. Donald Trump's lawyers are arguing that some of the evidence that was introduced in that prosecution pertained to official acts and therefore rendered the entire conviction potentially invalid.
44:24What happens here if these cases are not ended by the election and Donald Trump wins?
44:33I think there is no doubt that Donald Trump will end the federal prosecutions. He would order those charges to be dropped in the federal election interference case and the federal obstruction and wrongful retention of classified documents cases in Florida.
44:49As to the state cases, I think there would then be a kind of additional constitutional question presented, which is whether you can proceed with a trial against a sitting president rather than a former president.
45:02And so it's possible that that issue would result in an indefinite suspension of the Georgia election interference case. It is also possible that the New York courts would conclude they can't actually impose a sentence on someone who is the incoming or sitting president of the United States.
45:20And so it's very possible that the state cases are suspended. And I think it's a certainty that Donald Trump would eliminate the federal prosecutions against him.
45:29Regardless of whether President Trump comes back into office, he is going to go down in history as one of the most consequential presidents, primarily because of the three Supreme Court justices that he was able to appoint.
45:42But as you point out in your articles and writing and your study of this, we forget all of the other judgeships that make up the national justice system. Right. And why have those appointments been so significant? And why should we be thinking about that as one of the consequences of who we elect?
46:06I mean, Judge Cannon is a perfect case. You know, you previously noted how none of the cases against Donald Trump had actually proceeded to imposition of sentence. But that's in part because of who Donald Trump appointed to both the U.S. Supreme Court and the lower federal courts.
46:22Judge Cannon and her conduct of this trial has done everything to delay the proceeding from outright dismissing the case, which just happened, to effectively dragging it out over time. You know, remember, she tried to interfere in the special counsel's investigation by suggesting that Donald Trump had some interest in limiting the special counsel's ability to go through the evidence seized from Mar-a-Lago.
46:46And all of that delayed the prosecution and proceedings in what, in many respects, is the most straightforward open and shut case, obstruction of justice and wrongful retention of documents. I mean, there's literally video and audio evidence of them moving around the documents at Mar-a-Lago and the president on audio tape saying he didn't declassify the documents when he was president.
47:10And so all of that came to a halt because Judge Cannon, Donald Trump's appointee, decided she was going to drag her heels and drag this case out until after the election.
47:23And there are judges like that who are lying in wait in both the federal trial courts, like Judge Cannon, as well as on the courts of appeals around the country because Republicans prioritized the appointment of judges who were young, who were ideological, and who would advance the interests of the Republican Party.
47:44Congressman Mackenz was a huge supporter of the president. Right after Eileen Cannon's decision, he tweeted a photo, future Supreme Court Justice Cannon. That was the caption that he had with a photo of her. What does that say to you?
47:59It is the perfect encapsulation of how the Republican Party is signaling to aspiring officials, whether in the courts or otherwise, that maybe the most important criterion is whether you are willing to sacrifice your morals, ethics, the rule of law, in order to benefit Donald Trump and the Republican Party.
48:19They are holding that out as the criteria for professional advancement, including in the federal courts. And I think that's very scary.
48:27The ideology of the court or the grip that ideology has on the court has already been revealed in the last couple of years.
48:37Obviously, the overturning of Roe v. Wade was an enormous case. But there have been several other cases in both the previous sitting of the court and this session.
48:48Which ones strike you as having kind of these longer term effects that we're not really thinking about today because it might not have as visceral a reaction as the Dobbs case and Roe v. Wade overturning was, but are still really important in how the country is run?
49:11It's really hard just to list a few. I just have to say one additional sentence about Dobbs, which, of course, is Dobbs unleashed the current landscape where we are now two years after the decision debating whether states can prohibit hospitals from offering emergency care to pregnant patients whose life and health depends on it.
49:31It is hard to get more consequential than that.
49:35I would also add a kind of trio or grouping of administrative law cases where the court has limited the authority of expert federal agencies like the Environmental Protection Agency or the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or the Securities and Exchange Commission in order to make a variety of rules that affect our health, safety, welfare environment.
50:00And in all of those cases, the court has basically given the federal courts more power to second guess everything that agencies do.
50:10And in a world in which the courts are controlled by Republican appointed justices who are hostile to the project of regulation and who are sympathetic to corporate interests, that is going to affect people's lives over the next decades.
50:26And probably the third one I would list is the court's 2022 decision in Bruin, the Second Amendment case in which the court adopted a new legal test that would determine whether firearm restrictions are constitutional.
50:40And I think that that is a significant decision that is playing out in the federal courts that we are likely to see fall out from for however many years as it remains good law.
50:51The Washington Post reported earlier this week that President Biden is considering perhaps ways to rein in some of the powers of the Supreme Court, including maybe term limits or an enforceable ethics code.
51:04Are these things even constitutionally possible?
51:07I think many of them are.
51:09We don't yet have the proposal, and so it's a little bit difficult to analyze the precise constitutionality of different ways that the president might be thinking about the Supreme Court.
51:18You know, I do have to say term limits are probably the option that has the most constitutional questions about them just because of what the Constitution says about federal judges holding their office for good behavior.
51:35Now, I do think there is a pretty good case that Congress could alter the terms of the office of federal judges or Supreme Court justices going forward, but I very much doubt that Congress could impose term limits retroactively on justices who have already been confirmed.
51:55And so prospective term limits are not really going to change the court we have for a pretty long while and relative to some other options, I think, have more serious constitutional questions.
52:10What are your kind of top three suggestions if you were able to whisper into the ears of anybody that's looking to reform the court system that might be more fair, regardless of who's in power?
52:22So I do think term limits would be good prospectively, but I think by themselves are absolutely insufficient.
52:29And I think term limits are good because they put the public on notice that when they go to the polls next, they are picking the person who will pick a Supreme Court justice.
52:39And I think democratizing the selection process is a good thing.
52:43Another reform that I think has to be on the table is limiting the power of the federal courts in various ways.
52:50I think there are pretty targeted proposals that could limit, for example, the Supreme Court's ability to strike down the Voting Rights Act or to strike down federal laws that authorize the appointment of special counsels to investigate wrongdoing in the executive branch.
53:07There are already a bunch of federal laws that restrict court's power to kind of interpret and implement them.
53:14So I think Congress would be well within its power to enact various statutes that limit court's authority to eliminate those laws.
53:22And then I would add to that court expansion on all levels.
53:26I think this Supreme Court as it exists is a threat to American democracy and I think is likely to invalidate any kind of proposed reforms to the Supreme Court.
53:38And I think in order to democratize the court and limit its power, you have to add some number of additional justices who would allow Congress to enact those reforms.
53:48Professor Leah Lippman of Michigan Law School and the host of the podcast, Strict Scrutiny.
53:53Thanks so much for joining us.
53:55Thank you for having me.
53:57And finally tonight, women supporting women.
54:01This year's Emmy nominations are out and one of the shows topping the bill is True Detective Night Country with nods to Hollywood legend Jodie Foster and boxing champ turned TV actor Kaylee Reese.
54:13Earlier this year, the pair joined me to discuss working together on the hit show.
54:17It is only the third acting role for Reese and I asked about what it was like to star alongside one of her idols, the importance of indigenous representation and if Foster feels ready to pass the baton.
54:31This is one of the world's great, great actors since the age of six years old.
54:35Multi Oscar winning, multi award winning director, all of that in our consciousness for all sorts of reasons for so many years.
54:43Was it intimidating?
54:44Absolutely. I was terrified.
54:46But I was excited because I knew something terrified me like this.
54:50That means it was going to be I was going to learn so much and what better hands to be in to learn from than somebody like this.
54:57Well, you know, there's a funny thing that happens when you turn 60, I think, is at least for me, I feel like there's like some weird chemical that starts going off in your body and you just don't care.
55:08And part of that not caring is that you suddenly realize that it's so much more fun and more satisfying to recognize.
55:16It's not your time. It's someone else's time.
55:18And it's up to you to help support them and bring whatever experience and wisdom you have to that process.
55:24A poignant meditation on success, age and making room at the top.
55:29That's it for our program tonight.
55:30If you want to find out what's coming up on our show every night, sign up for our newsletter at PBS.org slash Amanpour.
55:37Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.