Amanpour & Co. - August 19, 2024
With Democrats on track to formally nominate Kamala Harris as the party’s presidential candidate, we look back at her political evolution during her tenure in the U.S. Senate. Washington Post congressional reporter Liz Goodwin joins Michel Martin to discuss Harris’s leadership style and how it sets her up for a challenging presidential campaign.
WARNING: Some pictures/scenes may contain graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.
WARNING: Some pictures/scenes may contain graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour & Company. Here's what's coming up.
00:09The stage is set for the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, with a burst of enthusiasm
00:14for Kamala Harris. I'm joined by Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips, one of the very
00:19first to warn about Biden's chances of winning. Then...
00:23You can see the damage that's been done to this street here.
00:29Inside the Russian town overtaken by Ukraine, we have a special report. Also ahead, the
00:35fight against female genital mutilation in Gambia. I'm joined by an FGM survivor and
00:41activist there who stopped efforts to legalize the practice in that part of Africa. And...
00:47That aura of sort of like glamour and discussion around her made her really stand out.
00:53Washington Post congressional reporter Liz Goodwin talks to Michelle Martin about the
00:57evolution of Kamala Harris and what lies ahead.
01:18Amanpour & Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood and
01:25Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir, the Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poita Programming Endowment
01:32to Fight Antisemitism, the Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss, Mark J. Bleschner,
01:39the Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, the Peter G. Peterson and Joan
01:46Gantz Cooney Fund, Charles Rosenblum, Ku and Patricia Ewen, committed to bridging cultural
01:53differences in our communities, Barbara Hope Zuckerberg, Jeffrey Katz and Beth Rogers,
02:00and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you. Thank you.
02:07Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It's all aboard and full
02:12steam ahead as the Democratic National Convention kicks off in Chicago tonight. It's where Lincoln
02:18accepted the presidential nomination in 1860 and a slew of Republicans and Democrats have
02:23done so ever since. It's also a city of political protest, and this convention promises more
02:29of that. Across the world, allies and antagonists will be watching carefully to get a measure
02:34of Kamala Harris' policies and grip on the election. Not so long ago, Democrats worried
02:40that their convention would be a rather downcast affair, but the party and the race have been
02:45completely transformed since President Biden decided to drop out a month ago and hand the
02:50baton to his vice president. The Democrats have been steadily clawing back lost ground,
02:56according to the latest polls, and are hoping to keep the good feeling going long after this week,
03:02with superstar party stalwarts like the Obamas, the Clintons and Nancy Pelosi all speaking after
03:08President Joe Biden headlines opening night, a night he, of course, had hoped to be basking
03:14in the adulation and the nomination of a grateful party faithful. Few could have foreseen the twists
03:20and turns that led here, but my first guest got very close. Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips
03:26was a one-man early warning system, citing President Biden's age and ability to run and
03:31win a second time. He even decided to challenge Biden by running against him in the primaries
03:38earlier this year, and he's joining me now from Chicago. Congressman Phillips, welcome to the
03:43program. It's great to be with you, Christiane, and let me tell you, the Windy City is living up
03:48to its name today. Well, it certainly is, but some say the wind is about political blather,
03:53so let me ask you what you think about all that's gone on across the airwaves and elsewhere
04:02regarding where we are right now. And you were the first, I think, in a major way
04:08to really raise the alarm that President Biden couldn't win again. How are you feeling now?
04:14Well, I got to tell you, Christiane, I hope, if nothing else, that my journey will inspire others
04:20to pursue missions of principle. I saw with my eyes, I heard with my ears, I read the numbers
04:26in front of my face, and it was so clear to me what we were facing, sleepwalking into another
04:31disaster. But of course, in politics, both here and in the United States and around the world,
04:36there are rarely professional rewards for courage. In fact, courage is often punished.
04:42And I'm feeling joyful. I was hopeful. I was excited about the possibility, if we could just
04:48make that change, that we could feel like we do right now. And I have no resentment,
04:53only gratitude and a great deal of excitement for what has transpired, because it is never too late.
05:00So walk me through a little bit, because as you say, I mean, I think you were sort of,
05:06let's say, outcasted by your party. I mean, how dare you challenge the actual
05:12sitting president and the man who actually has defeated Trump and the man who actually did
05:18legislate and put good policies, according to the party, through Congress? What did it take
05:24to actually challenge him? What was the decision, and why did you decide to primary him, so to speak?
05:33Well, Christian, I had seen his decline begin in mid-2021, when he appeared in front of us
05:39at our Democratic caucus meetings. When he decided to run for reelection,
05:43it was a surprise to many of us, a disappointment to many, not because we don't love Joe Biden.
05:48I and my colleagues do. He's a remarkable man, did a fantastic job in his tenure as president,
05:54saved this country in many ways, shape and form. But in American politics and democracy,
05:59we do not coronate kings and queens. It is not supposed to be about personalities. It's supposed
06:05to be about pragmatism and winning. And it was clear that that was not going to happen.
06:10So like I said earlier, I saw what was going on. Most of my colleagues who are running for
06:15reelection cannot take the personal risk to say that quiet part out loud. And I called other
06:21sitting governors who I thought would be exceptional candidates. I made public calls
06:25beginning back in 2022 for others to join the Democratic primary.
06:30But my party did not want to host a competitive primary. And that's why, at the very end,
06:35just a couple weeks before the New Hampshire filing deadline in October of 23,
06:39I decided someone had to do it, and I did it myself. And while it is almost impossible to
06:43stand up a presidential campaign in a mere two weeks, once again, nothing is impossible
06:49when you're on a mission of principle. And I was trying to call attention to the truth.
06:53I'd hoped that the president would have debated me back then. I think we would have discovered
06:57the challenge nine months ago instead of right now. But like I said earlier, Christiane,
07:02it worked. That mission was the beginning. Others started to recognize the truth. And slowly but
07:06surely, I think it gave permission to others to join me. And here we are today with an entirely
07:12new world and great optimism and excitement that you could not even feel an ounce of as
07:17recently as just a few weeks ago. Exactly. And as we led into your interview, we said that the
07:23race has been transformed. So you wanted Biden to step aside. Is Kamala Harris your candidate?
07:28Would she have been had she not been anointed by him? Well, I'll tell you, at the time, Christiane,
07:36Vice President Harris's numbers were actually worse than President Biden's. So at that time,
07:41I probably would have said, no, I wanted to see a competitive primary. I still believe that
07:45competition ultimately generates better outcomes. I will always speak that truth. And I think it's
07:50important for both parties to pursue. But in this case, she is absolutely the right candidate.
07:55The way that she mobilized and consolidated support amongst almost every Democrat in the
08:00country within a matter of literally a few days, I think is a remarkable demonstration of her
08:04leadership. What we have seen now, the movement in the polls, Christiane, is I think it does not
08:09even have a historical precedent. So, yes, she's the right candidate. And Tim Walls, my governor
08:14in Minnesota, who I believe will be the third Minnesotan of the last six Democratic vice
08:19presidents, is a remarkably wonderful choice who is going to open the door to conversation
08:25with Americans who've been left behind by the Democratic Party over the last number of years.
08:29So the answer is absolutely yes, but with the caveat that competition is important, period.
08:35And we should always pursue it. Let's talk a little bit about the issues, because obviously
08:39that is what matters in the end, not just winning, but then what do you do with it?
08:45So President Biden has been successful, people say, you know, about the economy,
08:50although many people, ordinary people, have some said they really don't feel it so much.
08:58What does Kamala Harris have to do on the economy? And do you think it's the number one issue? And I
09:03ask you this because the Washington Post editorial has said, following her economic speech on Friday,
09:09that we need real policies, not gimmicks. What do you think she has to do, even at this
09:15convention, to make voters believe that she has a handle on the economy?
09:23Well, I think the first thing she has to do, and she will, is to recognize that the human
09:27condition dictates that security is the fundamental need of, in this case, every American. Economic
09:33security, physical security. And you mentioned earlier, many people are struggling. About 60%
09:39of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. A booming economy is not accruing to an overwhelming
09:44majority of Americans. She will be listening, as will Tim Walz. And same goes with security,
09:49national security, border security. I do believe Donald Trump opened that door for Democrats to
09:55listen to what is important to a lot of rural Americans in particular that feel that they've
09:59been left behind and unheard for a long time. But do I believe that this will hinge on economic
10:03policy and national security policy? Absolutely. And do I think that Kamala Harris and Tim Walz
10:08will propose what I think this country needs? I do. And I think they're on a listening tour
10:13right now, and I think they will convert what they hear into policy action. And I look forward
10:17to doing anything I can to help them to that end. And we were showing some pictures of President
10:24Biden with her on one of the recent joint appearances. And, of course, he will have
10:29opened the conference tonight, the convention. And it's not going to be a legacy-burnishing
10:35thing, we're told. It's going to be putting the case to why he thinks his vice president
10:41is the best person to run the United States or to lead the United States.
10:46What is he going to have to say? What do you expect he will say to that regard?
10:53What I expect he's going to say is that she was a prosecutor in the state of California,
10:58worked her tail off to open doors for herself against a lot of odds. She's tough. She's
11:03principled. She's experienced. Then a United States senator, and, of course, now a vice
11:07president of the United States. There are few Americans better prepared to lead this country.
11:12And, as I said, in tandem with Tim Walz, I think a remarkable ticket.
11:16And I also think it's important that we honor President Biden. He didn't just save the United
11:21States. He restored the relationships with the rest of the Western world, including in Europe
11:26and in Asia, that had really been struggling after the tenure of our former President Trump.
11:31He should be celebrated for that. He has given his entire professional career to this country.
11:36And I'm excited that tonight we'll be honoring a man of great integrity and compassion,
11:40a man who called me the day I ended my campaign with some very kind words and even ended up
11:45calling my two daughters to do the same thing. This is an extraordinary, compassionate man
11:50handing the baton to a woman of equal competency and potential. And it's awfully exciting,
11:55not to mention the next generation of Americans is rising. That was my argument from day one.
12:02You know, you talk about this extraordinary handing over once the president realized that,
12:07as he said, that it was not in the interest of his party to continue like this. So it's,
12:13you know, not being, you know, it's unavoidable when you see a Democratic leader,
12:20and I mean the Democrat Party leader, who was, to all intents and purposes, having a good
12:25presidency and finally bowed to pressure from his own party. Very different to the cult of
12:32personality, as people have described the current Republican Party leadership and their presidential
12:37campaign. I mean, we've talked to people who wouldn't dare tell Trump don't run, although
12:42some of his former, certainly national security officials, say that they're going to put the case
12:46as to why he's not up to the task. But talk to me a little bit about, do you think the Democratic
12:52Party has shown real Democratic values and principles in this case?
13:01Well, Christiane, I would be the first to tell you that I think we have some work to do
13:06to that end, because I don't think this primary was run in a fashion that would have generated
13:10a better outcome more quickly. Now, that said, there is a major difference between the Republican
13:15Party and the Democratic Party. If you look at how my Republican colleagues were treated,
13:19who had the audacity to call out the truth about Donald Trump, I think eight of the 10 of those
13:24who voted to impeach him after January 6th lost their jobs. Now, I went through some tough times
13:29and was somewhat excommunicated from the party for a period of time. But the way that I've been
13:34greeted with high fives and hugs and handshakes and gratitude, even some apologies, really
13:39demonstrates how different these parties are. We make space and place for dissent. Leader Hakeem
13:44Jeffries, my dear friend and colleague, a former — I sat at his leadership table in the House
13:48Democratic Caucus, was an extraordinary gentleman during all of this time when I was making some
13:53enemies within the party during my run. But here I am, being thoughtfully celebrated and welcomed
13:59back into the fold, because Democrats do allow dissent, discussion, debate and deliberation.
14:05But to your point, yes, we have to — both parties and this country have to return to some of the
14:11key tenets of democracy. And also, as I said earlier, but I want to say something about Joe
14:16Biden. I was trying to be Paul Revere, the man who warned of the impending attack here in the
14:22United States during the Revolutionary War. George Washington, of course, the first president,
14:26the only American president not affiliated with a party and the only one in world history
14:30who actually gave up his power proactively, very much in the same spirit that Joe Biden did.
14:36So that's the bookend, from Paul Revere to George Washington, something to celebrate. But
14:41democracy does not happen on its own, and we have to invest. Americans have to participate,
14:46one in 10 voting in primary elections is not sustainable for a thriving democracy.
14:50That's true all around the world. So my call to action, Christiane, to everybody watching,
14:54no matter where you live, is be a participant. That's why I got involved in politics. My career
14:59will end here at the end of this term, after six years. It was beautiful, it was joyful,
15:03it was meaningful and inspirational. And I hope I can just use a little bit of that
15:08joy to spread to others around the world to be participants and know that anything is possible.
15:13I'm going to ask you about the rest of the world in a moment, but you've brought up several times
15:17the fact that your career in politics is ending. Is it really? And if so, why? Is it because you
15:22got slapped around with this audacious competition against Biden? Or what? I mean,
15:30you've been proven right, so to speak. Why give up now?
15:38Well, I'll tell you, Christiane, I made that decision when it was tough,
15:41when it seemed that the party had turned against me. And I expected that. I knew when I made this
15:45decision it would likely mean the end of that career. I do believe I could have, if I ran,
15:49I would have won again. But I also have to say that one of my other principles
15:53is term limits and ensuring that we constantly have new ideas and new people
15:58running for office in America. I served three terms. They were extraordinary, beautiful days
16:03and painful days. But I think it's really important that we always allow space and
16:08place for those of great potential and aspiration and competency to run for office. And I serve with
16:13way too many people who've been there for decades and decades. And I think modeling the very behavior
16:18that we want. I'm a bridge builder. I believe in decency, respect. And I also believe in limiting
16:23one's term in public office. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I never say never. There may be
16:27another intersection in the future in which my skills and availability matches the country's
16:33needs. But right now, I'm here to celebrate something that I gave a good part of my last
16:37year and a half in my life. A lot of sweat and tears, too. And that is to change this ticket.
16:42And here we are. And it is a beautiful celebratory day. As you know, people around the world are
16:47watching. They'll be watching this this convention, particularly allies and even, as I said,
16:53antagonists. What should they know about a Harris presidency when it comes to, let's say, policy
17:01in the Middle East? Right now, the secretary of state there, he is there. He has said this may be
17:05the last best chance to get the hostages released as part of a ceasefire and and prisoner swap.
17:12And, you know, it doesn't look like it's moving, but maybe it is.
17:17What should a Harris policy, let's say, on the Middle East be?
17:26I think a Harris policy on the Middle East will be a little bit more nuanced.
17:29I know the vice president to be a woman of both great strength, great principle and also
17:34great compassion. And if you're a human being, it is impossible to watch both the attack on
17:39October 7th in Israel and the aftermath of the horrific loss of life in Gaza. Two things can
17:46be true at once, Christiane. We can empathize with both. I believe Israel has a right to exist.
17:51I believe Benjamin Netanyahu has not led Israel in the manner with the principles and values that
17:56I surely would like to see. And I think most Americans and many around the world would like.
18:00But we also have to acknowledge that Israel is constantly under threat.
18:04And we can do two things at once, ensure the safety and security of Israel and invest in the
18:10safety, security and self-determination of Palestinians. I believe both are important.
18:14I think you'll see a President Harris and Vice President Walz do just that. And I would argue
18:18also, Christiane, it's time for an international Marshall Plan of sorts to, for the first time,
18:24really invest in a Palestinian state with the support of the Gulf states, the rest of the free
18:28world, hopefully even in collaboration with China, because what is going on there now is
18:33not just a risk to Israel and to Palestinians, but to the entire world. And I think we'll see
18:38a President Harris with a wonderful heart and an equally outstanding head as we approach what may
18:44be the last great opportunity to bring peace, prosperity and security to a region that needs it.
18:49And I'll just wrap up, of course, with the Iranian regime. Iran is an extraordinary country.
18:56The Iranian people, extraordinary themselves. But this regime is accountable for horrific loss of
19:01life over the last number of generations, currently responsible for so many of the
19:06terror attacks in the Middle East and around the world. And I think it's time for the
19:10free world at least to unify behind a change, if you will, and ensure that both those in the
19:17Middle East and around the world have opportunity to live in peace and security. That's what we'll
19:22see from this administration. We will not see that from Donald Trump. And I think that's fair.
19:27I think we should be listening to his words and watching his deeds. And that's why I think this
19:31election is so important, not just for this country, but for the entire world.
19:36And just because the entire world is watching, I said that the polls are tightening and she's
19:40doing better, Kamala Harris, than previous polls had shown. But it's still very, very close. And
19:48they say even if Donald Trump managed to flip one swing state, the whole game could be over for the
19:53Democrats. So what are the red flags that you see? What has to happen between now and November?
20:02Well, I'll just remind international viewers right now that we don't run our presidential
20:06contests on a popular vote. We have the electoral college system, which means
20:10there are about six states in the United States that will dictate the outcome of this election.
20:14And how the Harris-Walz ticket performs in Michigan, in Georgia, Nevada, Wisconsin, Arizona,
20:20Pennsylvania, that is all that matters. Don't look at the national polls. Look at those six or so
20:26battleground polls. And the movement has been extraordinary just in one month, as you just
20:30noted. But this is going to be a real difficult battle here in the next 70 days or so. And I do
20:36believe, as the honeymoon will probably draw to a close after the convention, policy will take the
20:41front seat. The debate will be important. I think President Trump's choice of J.D. Vance was a
20:47historic mistake for him. I also believe his decision to debate President Biden before the
20:54Democratic convention will go down in American history as an awful mistake, unforced error,
21:00if you will. But we are going to see a very tight race. But I'm very excited, just the energy,
21:05Christiane. In the last three weeks, our biggest risk was actually not Donald Trump. We were
21:10fighting the couch, meaning people staying home on election day. And I think the movement we're
21:14seeing now in energy excitement amongst young people, amongst communities of color, amongst
21:18disaffected Democrats, independents, moderate Republicans, I think we're going to see an
21:22extraordinary outcome in November that might just be a Democratic White House, Senate and House,
21:28which would be an extraordinary change from what we were feeling just a few weeks ago.
21:32Boy, oh, boy, we will come back to you after November election. Thank you so much indeed,
21:37Congressman. Thanks for joining us. And one of Biden's legacies, of course, is supporting Ukraine
21:42and defying Russia's takeover attempt. Things have not been going well on that front this year
21:47until a couple of weeks ago with Ukraine's astonishing and lightning strike into Russia.
21:52President Volodymyr Zelensky says their foothold in the Kursk region is getting stronger just as
21:58his forces blew up yet another bridge there. Nick Payton Walsh got rare on the ground access to the
22:04area. He was accompanied by the Ukrainian military who did review the video for operational security
22:10reasons. They had no editorial control at all. And here is the report.
22:16This was never in Putin's plan, but still into Russia we cross with Ukrainian forces moving
22:22forwards through the border post they destroyed in their surprise assault 10 days ago.
22:28As we get closer towards Sochi, we can see more smoke on the horizon, but still it's bizarrely
22:36calm on this road. Pause a moment in these open fields. And remember, this is the Cold War
22:42superpower, unguarded, open and never expecting when Russian President Vladimir Putin launched
22:48his war of choice two years ago to be invaded back. A Russian dead soldier still in the road.
22:55Ukraine only claimed here a day ago. Well, not even the statue of Lenin is unscathed here.
23:02This Ukrainian assault, so persistent and Russia, despite its sense of history, it's sort of
23:09past as being so impregnable, completely unable to push the Ukrainians out here.
23:14A sound of small arms fire we can still hear. So clearly there is a bid for the Russians to push
23:18back, but it simply isn't working. And the humiliation for Putin endures.
23:25Days ago, locals had honoured their war dead,
23:28but none since the Nazis led Russia to face occupation.
23:36You can see the damage that's been done to this street here,
23:40from the intense fight that raged. Still clearly active fighting happening here.
23:47A sign, in the basement here live peaceful people, no soldiers.
23:52Ina, 68, says 60 civilians are there.
24:01Just like we've seen in multiple Ukrainian towns over the last two years, here the locals
24:09trying to find some shelter from the war around them.
24:12Stanislav shows his grey.
24:23In the dark, huddled like so many Ukrainians now, the infirmed, isolated, begging for calm.
24:41Day, night, light, dark, news or blackout all blur into one.
24:59Yefimov is over 90 and wants to leave to Ukraine, but there is no route out, he says.
25:29Again, ordinary streets that never guessed of their destruction or newfound fame days ago,
25:38vacant in the storm around them.
25:43Normal life here vanished in a hurry, leaving store floors as barracks.
25:48And Nina, 74, out looking for a pharmacy for her medication.
25:59It is a war that keeps turning the world order on its head, where wreckage that lined Ukraine's
26:19fields now haunts Russia's. Ukrainians learn to paint over their road signs to confuse the invaders,
26:26but still here, the signs ask God to protect and save Russia.
26:31That was Putin's job. It is not clear when he's coming back.
26:37Nick Payton-Walsh reporting there. A woman's right to reproductive freedom is a key battlefield
26:43between Democrats and Republicans, and Vice President Kamala Harris has been the administration's
26:48point person on this ever since Roe versus Wade was overturned two years ago, and she vows to
26:54restore it if elected. In the Gambia, West Africa, a different struggle over women and the right to
27:00their own bodies is playing out. A bill seeking to reverse the 2015 ban on female genital mutilation
27:08was recently rejected by the nation's parliament, thanks to intensive lobbying and campaigning from
27:14human rights activists. Nearly 75% of Gambian women between the ages of 15 and 49 have endured
27:22this brutal practice, including our next guest, Zaha Dukere. She is the founder of Safe Hands for
27:29Girls, an NGO supporting survivors, and she's a UN Women Ambassador for Africa. She's joining
27:36me live now from New York. Zaha Dukere, welcome to the program.
27:41Thank you for having me.
27:42I mean, first and foremost, we need to celebrate what you all managed to make happen in your home
27:49country, Gambia, and that is not allowing the forces of whatever culture to overturn this ban
27:56on FGM. How difficult was that? What did you have to do to convince parliament and the people
28:03that these rights should not be overturned?
28:09I mean, I have dedicated most of my adult life working on the issue of FGM as a survivor and
28:16someone who not only comes from the Gambia, but I come from a tribe that practices female genital
28:22mutilation 100% of the time. And I feel to bring change into our communities is important that
28:28women like me who have the lived experiences, as well as know how to deal with members of our
28:34community, from our National Assembly members. And for us, we had to work with members of
28:40parliament in the Gambia. One key person was our deputy speaker, Mr. Sidi Ndiaye, who helped us
28:46lobby his colleagues. But not only that, we had to work with religious leaders. We had to get
28:51survivors to come out and share their story. And we had to mobilize across the country, because
28:59this was an issue that was highly politicized. And, you know, to think that in 2024, we're
29:07discussing whether to cut parts of a woman's genital is still something that I can't believe
29:14that I found myself in this fight nearly 12 years after I founded my organization.
29:20Jah, we just need to say that FGM was first banned in the Gambia in 2015.
29:25But as you say, cases remain high. 73% of women and girls are survivors. I mean, honestly,
29:33it sends your head spinning. So, I want to first ask you about your own experience,
29:39because that, too, is just, I mean, you wouldn't believe it if you didn't hear
29:43from you yourself. What happened at the tiniest, youngest of age?
29:50So, when I was one week old, in my tribe in the Gambia, you know, we are one of the only tribes
29:55that practice FGM when a girl is so young. So, when I was one week old, I went through FGM.
30:00But I also went through the type of FGM where the vagina is usually sealed, so that way they
30:06can prevent you from having sex until you get married. And I didn't know that I went through
30:11FGM because, obviously, at that age, I don't remember the experience. But when I got married
30:16at 15, it was when I found out that I had actually been subjected to FGM because my marriage couldn't
30:23be consummated until the seal was taken off. Sorry, you got married at how old?
30:31I was 15 years old when I got married. To who? Was this a marriage of choice?
30:38No, it wasn't a marriage of choice. Here in New York, actually, my mother died when I was 14,
30:44and then I was brought to New York to marry a guy that was much older than me, someone that
30:49was selected by my family. It was in a marriage that I wanted. And I think that's what frustrates
30:55me about the work that we're doing in The Gambia. A lot of times, they claim that, you know, we're
31:00influenced by the West and that everything that we say, it's not true, when, you know, there's
31:07evidence that this is something—like, I remember the doctor that took off the seal when I was 15
31:12years old here in New York City. I have the pictures of my wedding day here in New York City.
31:18Yes, exactly. So, it's—yeah. Can you tell us what is the origin of this practice? Because,
31:30you know, lots of well-meaning humanitarians call it cultural heritage. Others say it's a
31:35religious practice. What is it? Why does it happen? Because there are a lot of stakeholders,
31:41including some of the women who perform it. It's a source of income for them.
31:46Absolutely. I mean, being a source of income is why we insist on providing alternative
31:51livelihoods to women. But culture—slavery used to be a culture. But as human beings with
31:58morality, we know that it's wrong, and because of that, we decided to abolish it.
32:02Foot-binding used to be a culture in China. I agree, female genital mutilation is cultural.
32:08But in Gambia, in places like Somalia, people claim that it's a religious practice,
32:14when in fact it's not. When you look at the practice of female genital mutilation,
32:18it happens in Africa, it happens in Asia, and it happens in parts of the Middle East.
32:23But in predominantly Muslim countries, like the Gambia, where some religious leaders—I
32:28would say extreme religious leaders—claim that this is a religious practice, but then you look
32:32at other places, like the UAE, for instance, Qatar, and there's a lot of North African countries where
32:39female genital mutilation is not a thing. So I would say in the places where it is practiced,
32:44it is a cultural practice that has been passed down for generations.
32:48Look, you talked about North Africa. CNN did an amazing, amazing report nearly—actually,
32:5630 years ago now—of a young girl who this was happening to, and CNN had access.
33:01And we're going to show you an air, just a little piece of it, which was after the
33:07brutal cutting and her reaction afterwards. She was about 10 years old, this little girl.
33:13Daddy, daddy, screams Negla. There is a sin upon all of you.
33:19Negla's family fears that without circumcision, she'll become sexually promiscuous.
33:25It's not known why Egyptians traditionally circumcise their daughters.
33:29The family believes it's part of Islam, but religious scholars disagree.
33:33It's almost unheard of in other Islamic countries.
33:38I want you to know, daddy, that I didn't want to be circumcised, and you did it to me.
33:46Don't be a brat, your grandmother calls. It's over since her father. Be brave, Negla. Be brave.
33:55Gosh, I mean, to this day, it's hard to watch that. And it became illegal in Egypt where that
34:00took place in 2008. And at the time, FGM there made up a quarter of all the world's cases.
34:07But there's since been a sharp downturn, some progress there.
34:11Cases down almost 30% since then, 30 years ago. But she was blaming her parents.
34:19Did you have that situation? Were you able to
34:22tell your parents or your father, as she did, that this was not something you wanted?
34:28Well, I did not have that choice.
34:30Afterwards, I mean, because you were one week old. Yeah.
34:33Exactly. I mean, as an adult, I did have that conversation with my dad.
34:37But Egypt actually played a huge role in us maintaining the ban in the Gambia.
34:41The civil society coalition in the Gambia that I worked with,
34:45we took our National Assembly members to Egypt so that way they can learn from the Egypt experience.
34:50But a lot of girls, globally 230 million girls,
34:54are living with the practice of female genital mutilation.
34:58Many of them do not get a choice in whether this happens to them or not.
35:03And they never get an apology. And constantly living with people diminishing their pain
35:09and saying that this is something that should be acceptable, when in fact it's not.
35:14Interestingly, I read that your own father is a prominent imam,
35:18and you managed to convince him against FGM.
35:22Is that what it's going to take, really?
35:27Well, my dad loves me, but it's going to take women like us from the communities.
35:32You cannot import solutions into a community and accept change.
35:36It's important that you work with people like us who can stand up and say that
35:41because we have experienced this, we know exactly what it feels like.
35:45And we are urging and pleading with our communities.
35:47And we have to, you know, do our advocacy in a very respectful manner.
35:51Because we are dealing with a very culturally sensitive issue.
35:55So a lot of times I do have some empathy,
35:58especially for the women who are survivors who are saying that, you know,
36:01they will continue FGM because, you know, they're also victims of this practice.
36:06And I think education is critical in everything that we do.
36:10And do you see that happening? And we've got 10 seconds left.
36:13Is education on the rise?
36:16It is, but, you know, development and, yeah, the resources have to match.
36:21Jaha, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
36:25And we return now to our top story with Democrats getting ready to officially
36:30nominate Kamala Harris as the party's presidential candidate.
36:34In a recent article, Washington Post reporter Liz Goodwin
36:38explored how the vice president's role on several powerful Senate committees shaped her today.
36:44She joins Michelle Martin to explain all of that.
36:48Thanks, Christiane. Liz Goodwin, thank you so much for joining us.
36:51Thanks for having me.
36:53You started covering Kamala Harris when she first went to the Senate.
36:56What about her caught your eye? Why did you start focusing on her in particular?
37:01She really stood out at the time.
37:03A lot of times freshmen senators, they're sort of nervous.
37:06This is the first time they've been on the national stage.
37:09And that was true of Kamala Harris as well,
37:12but she just didn't seem to have the same caution or nerves
37:16that a lot of freshmen senators had.
37:18She immediately spoke at the Women's March.
37:20She just had this very high profile from day one.
37:23And people were already talking about her as a potential presidential contender.
37:27So just that aura of sort of like glamour and discussion around her made her really stand out.
37:33I'm wondering if in part she stood out because
37:37she was elected to the Senate the same year that Donald Trump was elected to the presidency.
37:43I'm wondering if in part the attention was focused on her because she was seen
37:47even then as kind of like the anti-Trump.
37:49I mean, she was the exact opposite of what Donald Trump presented himself as when he became president.
37:55You think that's kind of part of it?
37:57For sure.
37:58I think Kamala Harris getting elected the same day as Donald Trump, really,
38:02when she was expecting to be serving with the first woman president, right?
38:07She became the first black woman elected in California to the Senate.
38:11And then she thought there was going to be this other barrier-breaking
38:14liberal woman in the White House.
38:16And instead, Donald Trump is elected.
38:19Liberals are shocked.
38:20I mean, everyone was shocked because that's not what the polling had predicted.
38:23But liberals were also very concerned.
38:26They didn't know what kind of president Trump was going to be like.
38:30And they were really looking to new leaders in the party to kind of
38:34guide them through that moment.
38:35And Kamala Harris became one of those people incredibly quickly.
38:39So how did that happen?
38:41So I think one thing that Harris came equipped with as a freshman senator was her rhetorical
38:47ability, her speaking skills.
38:48They were just above average, to say the least, for someone so new to the national stage.
38:55And in the Senate, she really made her name with these committee hearings where she would be
39:00questioning Trump administration officials in a very aggressive style that she learned
39:06in courtrooms, right?
39:07And it really made her stand out.
39:08So even though she would be the last person to ask questions because she was the newest
39:13senator, by then, it's very hard to make any news.
39:16Everyone's already asked all the good questions.
39:18But she really made a point to think about how she could attack some questions that hadn't
39:24been asked yet.
39:25She prepared very lengthy preparation sessions.
39:28She really took that part of the job seriously.
39:31And it paid off because it would lead to these sort of viral clips of her questioning people
39:36like Jeff Sessions or Brett Kavanaugh.
39:38And I think that also kind of launched her much more quickly than your average
39:43senator or politician.
39:44What was her reputation when she was a San Francisco district attorney and California
39:50attorney general?
39:51Yeah, I think people thought of her as a force and having a lot of charisma.
39:56She already had that reputation running statewide in California.
40:01Her chief of staff in the Senate came with her from the AG's office.
40:06And he said something that really stood out to him about her always is that she can really
40:11read a room.
40:12So she has a lot of emotional intelligence, which not all politicians do, surprisingly.
40:17It was a big change for her from being AG because you're running this big office.
40:21You're in charge.
40:22You're making these decisions, very high-level decisions.
40:26And in the Senate, you're one of 100.
40:28And everyone sort of sees themselves as a star.
40:30There's a lot of big personalities.
40:32And you're the lowest on the totem pole as a freshman in particular.
40:36And that was kind of a tough shift for her from going from being an executive to being
40:41a legislator.
40:42One of the things I thought was really insightful in your piece is you talked about how she
40:47was used to a very high level of preparation for being in court.
40:51And given all the things that are thrown at you in the Congress, the schedule, the
40:56committees, that isn't possible.
40:58I thought that was really interesting that she found that a source of frustration.
41:02But beyond that, what are some of the other ways that she adapted to that?
41:05Yeah, she definitely struggled with what you're talking about, this level of preparation,
41:09the fact that you couldn't know everything anymore because the issue set that you're
41:14given as a senator is just endless.
41:16She took more naturally to being in these committees and asking questions and demanding
41:22accountability because that was really already in her skill set.
41:25When it came to legislating, she was only in the Senate for four years and she was in
41:30the minority the whole time.
41:32So that's usually not a good atmosphere for producing big bipartisan deals or things of
41:37that nature.
41:38But even for that set of circumstances, she didn't seem as interested in legislating,
41:44aides say and fellow senators say.
41:47So she did manage to get through some pieces of legislation and put out her own agenda.
41:54But it didn't seem to be her passion, essentially, is what people who work for her say.
41:59Well, what was her passion or what is her passion, at least as far as you can glean
42:04from the work that she did in the Senate?
42:06I would say these moments of holding Trump administration officials accountable was much
42:11more her passion, like the amount of prep that she would put into it was really above
42:16and beyond, you know, even for the Senate.
42:20For the Brett Kavanaugh hearing, she had her usual staffers prepping her and then they
42:25also brought in Supreme Court clerks because she knew they would be able to really vet
42:30questions and think about how someone like Brett Kavanaugh would answer them.
42:35So she really spent a ton of energy in making sure that she was coming to those committees
42:40ready and ready to sort of make news and break ground.
42:44I think she also formed relationships with fellow senators that is helping her now.
42:49You know, a lot of them, most of them came out immediately after President Biden said
42:54he was stepping aside to support her.
42:56And I think that having that well of support is helping her now.
43:01And what about with the Republican colleagues?
43:03I mean, they kind of implied that she wasn't really interested in legislating.
43:07That was kind of the through line of the comments that the Republicans made about her.
43:11What does that mean?
43:12What are they trying to say?
43:14Yeah, I think just because she was there for such a short time before she ran for president,
43:19that gave people the impression that what she was doing those first two years
43:24was more positioning for the presidential run than trying to get things done.
43:30So, you know, for example, she had signed on to Bernie Sanders' Medicare for All
43:35bill, which she later said she did not support.
43:38She backed off of that.
43:38But that was there were kind of these like litmus test issues going on that we're going
43:42to later feed into the Democratic primary.
43:45And the Democrats were very much like in a conversation with themselves about criminal
43:49justice reform, about health care, about immigration that had no bearing in reality at all,
43:53because it was a unified Republican government at the time.
43:57So I think it's actually kind of fair to say that she was locked in that kind of conversation
44:02for much of her time in the Senate that didn't really it wasn't going to lead to any
44:06legislation because of the divided government.
44:09So now going to where her stint as vice president, the criticism of her as vice president,
44:16and that's not just on the Republican side, you know, as sort of attack lines, but also
44:21some of the reporters who kind of covered her as vice president have said that she she
44:26never really locked into anything that she could identify as a success.
44:30The argument is that she hasn't really identified what she would do as an executive.
44:35Do you think that's fair based on your coverage of her in the Senate?
44:39I do think it's that would be a fair way to describe some of her Senate years as well.
44:44But it's also with the big caveat that it was only four years.
44:48So, you know, most people develop a Senate record at least over six years.
44:52Right. And and much lengthier than that for most of the people I cover.
44:56And it really takes a while to get settled on your committee and and find your interest
45:01areas and build those relationships.
45:03It really takes a lot of relationship building to get anything like substantive done bipartisan.
45:10So I think, you know, it's fair to say she didn't really do much.
45:14She didn't get anything, any major law passed during her time.
45:18But it was also four years when she was in the minority.
45:21So it's hard to say what that would have looked like had she had a full Senate career.
45:26That said, her aide said that it wasn't really her happy place anyway.
45:32She kind of wanted to be back in the executive chair, which she quickly was as vice president.
45:37And when you're vice president, it's more about being pragmatic,
45:40you know, trying to manage things while trying to make small improvements on the margins as
45:44an executive. And I think that's a better fit for her sort of style.
45:49Was Harris ever frustrated by what some people would see
45:54as her lack of visibility in the Biden administration?
45:58Just overall, you know, is there a sense that she was not the key player that she could have been
46:08or that many people believe Joe Biden was in the Obama administration?
46:12To my knowledge, I don't think she felt that she wanted to play more of a role on the Hill
46:17specifically, that she wanted to be, you know, more of that role that Biden had,
46:21where he would go over there and negotiate these big bills.
46:26You know, I don't get the sense she wanted to be there hashing out the infrastructure bill,
46:31for example. And she was able to kind of pick her spots when it came to
46:36being the voice of responding to Roe v. Wade, which now, you know, even though she wasn't
46:41getting that much attention for it, you see it now that her message on that is so sharp,
46:46because that's what she's been doing for two years is owning that issue.
46:52So, yeah, my my sense is that she didn't feel overshadowed when it came to the Hill in
46:56particular. I don't know if she felt overshadowed in other ways, like if she felt she could be
47:02better utilized on other fronts, though. You know, her own presidential run
47:09was widely seen as a bust. And, you know, people have different interpretations of why.
47:13But in the course of your reporting, did that come up?
47:16Yeah, I think, you know, one issue with that primary was what we were talking about earlier,
47:21where Democrats were trying to kind of race to the left in a lot of ways to distinguish
47:27themselves from each other and from Trump, like who can be the most anti-Trump Democrat,
47:33who can have the health care plan that's the most liberal. So you're the best liberal.
47:38And Joe Biden sort of never engaged in that game because he was sort of, you know,
47:43I'm the vice president. I am who I am. And he also began to seem sort of like the safe choice.
47:49I think there was a lot of anxiety about the idea of picking another woman after 2016,
47:55much less a Black woman, because Hillary had lost. And some people felt maybe that
48:00was because she was too much of a gamble just on the gender portion alone. So I think Democrats
48:05were also just going through a lot of fear and rationalizations about what happened in 2016
48:13and wanted kind of a safe, sure thing. And Kamala Harris never really seemed like she was that.
48:19And now, I mean, it's been a remarkable couple of weeks as you and I are speaking now.
48:26The fundraising has been remarkable. The sense of energy on the campaign trail.
48:33What do you make of it? And what do you what are your what are the people that
48:36you've interviewed in the Senate make of the response to her, to the ticket so far?
48:41I asked Chuck Schumer about that, actually, when I was talking to him for this piece. And he
48:46basically said there's some people who just rise to a challenge, like this is just a crucible and
48:51she's just sort of crushing it. And that's who she is. She rises to a challenge. So I think that's
48:57one interpretation. But you could also say her first presidential run was a challenge and she
49:02didn't rise to it. Right. And so I think there's a lot of different factors that just make this
49:07moment right for her. One piece of it is just the relief among a lot of Democrats that it's not Joe
49:12Biden and the surprise of that and her seeming so fresh in comparison, given concerns about
49:18his age. And that's really boosting her right now. At the same time, you're starting to hear
49:23people say, you know, I want to know more about your policies, what you believe in. Can you show
49:27us exactly what you would do? And that is something that did trip up her earlier presidential run when
49:35when she had to flesh out policies and it became this race among Democrats for whose policies could
49:41be more liberal. So I think that's that remains a challenge for her. It'll be interesting to see
49:47how she tackles it. How will she tackle this? There are groups that evaluate different political
49:55figures and where they sort of fit on the ideological spectrum. According to one of those,
49:59she was considered the second most liberal senator. This is something that Donald Trump
50:03has seized on on the campaign trail, saying that she was almost as liberal as Vermont Senator
50:10Bernie Sanders, who's a self-described socialist who caucuses with sort of the Democrats.
50:15Is that I mean, how how do you see that? I think she was definitely one of the most liberal
50:21senators when she was in the Senate. And the issue that she really launched her career on was
50:27immigration and this idea of Trump's rhetoric against undocumented immigrants being dehumanizing.
50:34And she introduced a bill that would have given immigrants the right to an attorney at the border.
50:40Her maiden speech in the Senate was defending undocumented immigrants. And that's something
50:45that now I think with polls showing that a lot of Americans are very concerned about
50:50illegal immigration, that she's not really emphasizing as much. And there's other issues
50:55like that as well, where she's she has reversed her position, like on wanting to ban fracking,
51:00for example. And that does open up the risk of being labeled a flip flop or inauthentic in
51:07some way, which Republicans are making that argument. You know, if you ask her, her people
51:12around her, they say that her time as vice president has shifted her opinions because
51:17she's been dealing with real world issues. And she's kind of learning as she goes and
51:22and changing her mind, which, you know, people do. So it's it just I think the whole world around
51:29her policy issues and where does she stand and how liberal does she want to be? That's been
51:34something that's been in the air for her for years now. And I think that that's going to
51:38be one of the main things she has to tackle before the election. But if there is an Achilles heel
51:45for her as a candidate. Would it be that the fact that she doesn't seem to have staked out
51:52an identity from a policy perspective or if she has, it's one that may play well in California,
51:59her home state, but isn't necessarily as attractive to the rest of the country?
52:04Yeah, I think that's definitely what Republicans are banking on,
52:07that she her instincts are more liberal than the average Americans and are going to turn off
52:12the voters she needs to win over in states like Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania,
52:18that they're going to kind of see through this act, as they would say, of seeming more moderate,
52:26more down the middle. And then I think there's also the risk of people on the far left,
52:32you know, being angry that she's not with them, right? So that's always the tightrope any
52:38candidate has to walk. Do voters really get worked up about policy? How much are they thinking about
52:44fracking, for example, versus does this person seem like they have a steady head on their
52:49shoulders? Do they seem like someone who is nice that I trust? A lot of times decisions do come
52:56down to candidate kind of qualities versus policy papers. So I think to me, the most potentially
53:05potent attack Republicans could have on Harris is if the policy switching becomes a character issue.
53:12Is it inauthentic? Does it mean she doesn't stand for anything? Things like that tend to be more
53:18powerful than just the policies themselves. And before we let you go, Liz, what is her North Star
53:26from what you can determine based on your following her career and based on your reporting?
53:30And what is her North Star? What drives her? I mean, she often talks about her parents being
53:37involved in the civil rights movement, you know, growing up in Oakland. And that I think that's
53:43when she tells her own origin story about what made her want to become a lawyer or get involved
53:48in politics, try to make a difference. That's where she really locates it. So I do think her
53:54North Star is believing in an America that, you know, you have to get involved if you want to
53:58improve it, if you want to make sure everyone has the promise of equality here, of opportunity.
54:05And that's why she got involved. And I think that's what she would say today as well.
54:11Liz Goodwin, thanks so much for talking with us. Thanks for having me.
54:15And talking of getting involved, finally tonight, we say goodbye to a television icon. Phil Donahue
54:22died last night, aged 88, following a long illness. For nearly three decades,
54:26he hosted his own talk show, pioneering a new format for daytime TV that focused on
54:32everyday topics and had audience participation. On his program, he showed empathy towards women's
54:38rights and issues. Some might even have called him a feminist.
54:43We were talking about things that had never been discussed on the air. We were talking about the
54:48things women were talking about among themselves. When all the men on Saturday night would go into
54:55the kitchen to mix their drinks, the women would gather in the living room. And what they were
55:01talking about are issues that the Donahue people brought to television. I'm very proud of that.
55:07And in the 1980s, during the Cold War, Donahue co-hosted a Space Bridge talk show
55:13with the Soviet journalist, Vladimir Pozner. It was a groundbreaking television moment that allowed
55:19studio audiences in the United States and in the Soviet Union to ask one another questions
55:25via satellite. Over the course of his career, he won 20 Emmys. And just three months before
55:31his death, he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Joe Biden. And that's it for our
55:37program tonight. If you want to know what's coming up on the show every night, sign up for our
55:41newsletter at pbs.org slash amanpour. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.