Former White House National Climate Adviser Gina McCarthy discusses a summer filled with extreme weather and silence on the subject from U.S. presidential candidates. Journalists Caitlin Dickerson and Lynsey Addario talk about their reporting on migrants as they follow them through the lethal Darién Gap route. CEO of Google DeepMind Demis Hassabis on the promise and peril of AI discoveries.
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amman Porn Company. Here's what's coming up.
00:09The impact of climate change is visible everywhere. Two years since the Inflation Reduction Act,
00:15I asked former White House climate czar Gina McCarthy about the stakes of the U.S. election.
00:22And 70 miles in the Darien Gap, The Atlantic's Caitlin Dickerson and photojournalist Lindsay
00:28Adario on the treacherous route migrants take through the jungle to the U.S. border.
00:34Also ahead.
00:35I'm very optimistic, obviously, that we'll, you know, human ingenuity collectively will
00:38work this all out.
00:40Co-founder and CEO of Google DeepMind, Demis Hassabis, talks to Walter Isaacson about the
00:46huge potential of artificial intelligence, from driverless cars to medical breakthroughs.
00:52Then
00:53James Baldwin is a genius, period.
00:55One hundred years since the birth of iconic American author James Baldwin, we look back
01:00at Christian's conversation with the Oscar-winning filmmaker, Barry Jenkins, as he brought Baldwin's
01:06if Beale Street could talk to the big screen.
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02:03differences in our communities, Barbara Hope Zuckerberg, Jeffrey Katz and Beth Rogers,
02:09and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.
02:15Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:17I'm Bianna Goldriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
02:20Well, this week, U.S. presidential candidates Kamala Harris and Donald Trump have been digging
02:25into the economics, talking about inflation and issues like price gouging.
02:30But so far in their campaigns, one big topic has gone almost unmentioned, climate.
02:36And while the candidates are quiet, the earth, well, it's screaming.
02:40Temperature records are being shattered, wildfires are spreading and new studies are revealing
02:45a terrifying reality.
02:47One European report finding that heat turbocharged by carbon pollution killed up to 50,000 people
02:53on the continent last year alone.
02:56Two years ago today, the Inflation Reduction Act was signed into law, the largest ever
03:01investment in renewables and clean energy jobs.
03:04But challenges continue, many arguing that it's not going far enough.
03:09And some political entities, like the pro-Trump Project 2025, trying to wipe away clean energy
03:15initiatives altogether.
03:17Gina McCarthy served as EPA administrator and then as inaugural White House National
03:22Climate Advisor, where she helped craft the Inflation Reduction Act.
03:25And she joins the show from Boston.
03:27Gina, it is good to see you again.
03:30What a wild few weeks it has been, a new candidate at the top of the Democratic ticket.
03:39And I'm curious, just at the top of this conversation, if you're surprised that of all of the topics
03:44that have been discussed thus far, I know that it's early days for her campaign, but
03:49the campaigns themselves are winding down, the election just a few months away, that
03:54we haven't heard specifically from Kamala Harris on the issue of climate.
03:59Well, I'm not surprised at all, frankly.
04:04I am ecstatic right now about the change that is happening and the ability to have this
04:11Harris team move forward.
04:14And Wallace is just amazing.
04:17So I think that many of us have been listening and heard snippets about climate, but I don't
04:23have any question about the commitment of Vice President Harris and the commitment of
04:29Governor Wallace.
04:30I mean, they've displayed it by their work so far in government, and I'm excited about
04:36it.
04:37And frankly, this two-year anniversary of the Inflation Reduction Act is the biggest
04:41birthday present that I could ever get.
04:45It's just amazing how it's moving our country towards clean energy.
04:50And I have no doubt that that will continue under a Biden-Wallace administration.
04:55I'm sorry, Harris-Wallace administration.
04:57Well, the vice president was the one who had the breaking vote there, right, to actually
05:04see this through the finish line.
05:06But you talk about what you're excited for, looking at this new ticket, and you look at
05:12Governor Wallace's record in particular.
05:14He made climate a huge issue for Minnesota.
05:17He signed a law last year mandating that Minnesota get to all of its electricity from
05:21solar, wind, and other carbon-free sources by 2024.
05:25I'm wondering, as we're entering next week with the DNC and each night having a different
05:31theme, on the night that focuses more on the economy, are you expecting to hear more about
05:37some of the initiatives that Governor Wallace introduced in his state and how that could
05:42have appeal perhaps nationwide in a democratic vision in terms of both combining improvements
05:49and growth to the economy while also addressing climate?
05:52Yeah, I do expect more to come, and I do know that Vice President Harris is going to be
05:59discussing some of the new policies that her and Governor Wallace are planning to move
06:05forward with.
06:06So I'm excited to hear what she has to say.
06:10But look, the Democratic National Convention this year is going to be an exciting one that's
06:17filled with hope and opportunity, because that's what people need to hear about, is
06:22the Democratic Party knows how to make things happen in our country.
06:27That benefits every state, every district, and every family.
06:33That's what the Inflation Reduction Act was intended to do and is really overcompensating
06:42for what we thought was going to be a shift.
06:44Now it's monumental.
06:47So I do think that we're going to be at the DNC sort of celebrating the change, celebrating
06:55the opportunity, and really just moving forward to talk about every aspect of policy we can
07:03to make sure that this movement to help people in our country and grow good, clean energy
07:08jobs and save families money, that all of this will continue.
07:13We haven't heard much of an energy plan from former President Trump either than perhaps
07:18drill, baby, drill.
07:19I know that climate activists like yourself are concerned about what another Trump administration
07:24could see, given that the last time he took the U.S. out of the Paris Climate Accords.
07:31What have you told The Guardian, specifically with reference to Project 2025, which we should
07:36note former President Trump has really distanced himself from, though the officials who are
07:40behind it were some of his closest advisors in his previous administration, including
07:45his former OMB director.
07:46But here's what you told The Guardian about it.
07:48Quote, it seems like the road to hell made with evil intentions.
07:54Just explain to us and our viewers what you mean by that and what kind of warning you're
07:59giving viewers with regards to how you fear he may handle climate.
08:03Yeah, well, I think the differences between a Trump and Harris administration are pretty
08:10stark.
08:11And he may want to disown Project 2025, but he cannot.
08:16That is his baby.
08:18And I think he's recognizing that it is very extreme.
08:23I mean, we are talking about eliminating tremendous amounts of of agencies in the federal government,
08:31which he may find joyful.
08:33I find threatening.
08:34It is absolutely a threat that undermines our democracy.
08:39If you look at that in detail and frankly, even just glimpse at it, it really has a shocking
08:46number of ridiculous, if you care about America and our country, ridiculous proposals that
08:54would eliminate not just whole agencies, but frankly, totally undermine our democracy.
09:01And so hopefully, you know, he's walking away from that, recognizing that it was not an
09:08appropriate response in terms of developing his vision of the future.
09:13But my fear is that's exactly what he wants the future to look like.
09:19It's interesting, some of the players, the traditional players you would think from industries
09:23that would go and support wholeheartedly another Trump administration have now made so many
09:29advancements that move forward regarding the Inflation Reduction Act, involving climate
09:34change with regards to renewable energy.
09:36I mean, I'm talking about the energy sector itself that now they view, if anything, another
09:43Trump administration would be they'd have to walk back some of the investments they've
09:47already made.
09:48That coupled with some of Trump's biggest supporters actually embracing climate research
09:54and investment like Elon Musk, for example, have made for strange bedfellows and put Republicans
10:00and Donald Trump in an awkward position.
10:03I'd like to play sound for you from the interview, however you want to call it, between Donald
10:07Trump and Elon Musk on X earlier last week, this week.
10:12You know, the biggest threat is not global warming, where the ocean's going to rise one
10:16eighth of an inch over the next 400 years.
10:18The big and you'll have more you'll have more oceanfront property, right?
10:21I'm pro environment, but I'm not against, you know, I'm not like I don't think we should
10:27vilify the oil and gas industry because they're keeping civilization going right now.
10:32And but I do think we want to move, you know, you know, a reasonable speed towards a sustainable
10:38energy economy.
10:39So is that reassuring at all to you, Gina, that regardless of how he may feel personally,
10:44that Trump, because of his relationship with Elon Musk, as he jokes, has embraced electric
10:49vehicles and just the way Elon has described it himself, that that he, for one, doesn't
10:54want to vilify the energy industry at this point.
10:58Look, in the end, I think what they both care about more than anything is money.
11:04And let's be clear about that.
11:07I mean, clearly, Elon Musk has to be talking in those terms about clean energy because
11:13he's one of the driver of clean energy with electric vehicles.
11:17So he's not going to undermine his own business.
11:21But President Trump, you know, to say that the good news is that homes will be destroyed
11:27along our oceanfront properties is just, you know, I have to say it.
11:34It's not just strange.
11:35It is weird.
11:36I think weird is the word I would use for both of those folks in the conversation that
11:42they had.
11:43You know, we have to get we have to get smart in this country.
11:48We have to recognize that that the Inflation Reduction Act actually resulted in 493 billion
11:55dollars in investments in just its two year history.
11:59And this is a 10 year horizon.
12:01Why is that happening?
12:02Because businesses want to invest.
12:05They want to make money.
12:06This gives them an opportunity to make money in a way that's going to benefit all of us.
12:11Lots of new jobs, lower family costs.
12:14We are talking about the opportunity of our lifetime.
12:18We have to get away from two people that are disconnected in many ways with reality and
12:24talk about real human beings.
12:263.4 million homes have invested in energy using the rebates, the new clean energy, using
12:34the rebates and efficiency programs that we have available to them.
12:38Look, the United States deserves better than to listen to those two.
12:42We have to listen with our heart and listen with our head and talk to real life human
12:47beings and what they need.
12:49The Inflation Reduction Act has created 330,000 jobs.
12:53We need that.
12:55It has provided families cheaper energy costs.
12:58They need that.
12:59Let's keep focused on reality here.
13:02And let's keep pushing because we've got another eight years of the Inflation Reduction
13:05Act.
13:06And I am hugely excited about the technologies and opportunities that we're going to see
13:12during that period and grab for ourselves and, frankly, for the entire world.
13:17Because the United States needs to lead, and you know as well as I, climate change is real
13:23and it is, in fact, killing people.
13:26Well, let's see.
13:27We'll be watching closely how the Harris-Walls campaigns focus next week at the DNC on this
13:34very important issue.
13:36As you note, Gina McCarthy, anybody, anything but weird.
13:39Thank you so much for joining us.
13:41Good to see you again.
13:44Thanks so much.
13:45Well, climate change is also a crucial factor that's fueling record levels of migration
13:50across the globe.
13:51Now migration is already a key touchstone in the approaching U.S. election.
13:55Both candidates talking about it at their rallies.
13:58We know our immigration system is broken and we know what it takes to fix it.
14:05Comprehensive reform that includes, yes, strong border security and an earned pathway to citizenship.
14:14Most of the job creation has gone to migrants.
14:18In fact, I've heard that substantially more than, beyond, actually beyond the number of
14:25a hundred percent, it's a much higher number than that.
14:29But what's behind all of this talk and who are the human beings making the terrifying
14:33decision to flee their homes?
14:36That's the focus of this month's cover story for The Atlantic by journalist Caitlin Dickerson
14:40and photographer Lindsay Adario, who alongside migrants journeyed twice through the notorious
14:45and lethal Darien Gap route towards the United States.
14:49And they both join me now.
14:51Caitlin and Lindsay, thank you so much for taking the time.
14:55Caitlin, I'll start with you.
14:56This is an issue you've been covering for many, many years.
14:59I'm wondering what finally led you earlier this year to start making this trek yourself?
15:08The numbers.
15:09I watched the Darien Gap, this area that was once thought to be completely impassable.
15:14Going back to the 1700s, other nations have tried to colonize this very, very dense jungle.
15:20As you said, it's the only way to walk north out of South America.
15:25And so prior to the year 2015, when we saw the first little spike, you would really only
15:31see a few hundred people attempt to brave this area each year.
15:36And it's completely changed.
15:38We're talking about more than half a million people who did this journey last year alone.
15:44And they're coming from all over the world.
15:46The largest number come from Venezuela.
15:48But you have representation from all over Africa, East and South Asia, and throughout
15:53Latin America.
15:54And as somebody who covers migration, it was just something that I could no longer ignore.
16:00I think the severity of the movement through this part of the world just highlights how
16:06significant the global migration crisis has become, how desperate people all over the
16:11world have become to take this journey.
16:14And so it was something that I felt I had to see for myself.
16:18And I want to get to you, Lindsay, in terms of what you actually saw and the migrants
16:23that you met and encountered along this grueling journey.
16:27But Caitlin, just on the issue in this delicate balance that numerous administrations time
16:33and time again have had to make in terms of deciphering those who are leaving for safety
16:40reasons and those who are leaving for economic reasons.
16:43And you spoke to the U.S. Ambassador to Panama about this, other State Department officials.
16:49And what you note is so important because you say that people migrate for overlapping
16:53reasons.
16:54It's usually not a binary option for so many of these people.
16:57And in terms of hearing from both candidates at the introduction of this piece, it really
17:06stood out to me that many of these migrants are well aware of the legal system here in
17:12terms of what they could encounter.
17:14And I'll quote from your piece, many of the migrants I met in the Darien Gap knew which
17:18types of cases prevail in American immigration courts and which do not.
17:22They were prepared to emphasize whichever aspect of their story would be most likely
17:27to get their children to safety.
17:29I found that fascinating, Caitlin.
17:32It is.
17:33One of the things that I've focused on in my work and that was a priority for me in
17:38the Darien Gap was to look at the tools that the U.S. government has relied on again and
17:43again to respond to global migration.
17:47It grows each year.
17:48Right now you have one in 69 people on the planet who are currently migrating from their
17:53homes, over 170 million people total.
17:57And I've spent years looking at how we've responded to that, largely through deterrent
18:03policies, so policies put into place at the southern U.S. border, as well as by pressuring
18:08other nations, especially in Latin America, to crack down on their own immigration systems
18:13and basically try to stop people either before they leave home or en route to the United
18:18States.
18:20Another of these tools has been to distinguish between who qualifies under the law as a legitimate
18:26refugee or asylum seeker versus an economic migrant.
18:29But I felt it was important to convey in this piece that, you know, again, years of
18:34experience has shown me that people have many reasons for which they're migrating.
18:40And they know the American immigration system, you know, our Congress has been stuck on this
18:45issue for years with no movement since the 90s.
18:48And in that time, the international smuggling networks that move people across the globe
18:53are sort of running circles around our enforcement apparatus.
18:56They know what the rules are.
18:58These are people who are very, very desperate, carrying their children through unimaginably
19:04harrowing scenes, which I'm sure we'll get into.
19:06And so, you know, any rational or logical person knowing the laws is going to respond
19:12in interviews in a way that they know is going to be more likely to get their children and
19:16themselves to safety.
19:18Yeah.
19:19Democrats historically have been criticized for not taking this issue seriously enough.
19:22Republicans have been criticized for instilling fear mongering and dehumanizing these migrants.
19:27The president, they're expressing falsehood after falsehood, saying that they're taking
19:31more than 100 percent of U.S. jobs.
19:33That doesn't even make sense.
19:35But Lindsey, let's talk about these people and show some of the photos that you took
19:39here, because it really paints the picture of a system that is broken not only here in
19:44the United States, but in many countries that is driving all of these people to seek shelter,
19:51security, jobs for their children in the United States and in Mexico for some of these families.
19:58You photographed a group of over 600 people sitting off in the jungle at the start of
20:02this trail.
20:04In a weird way, it almost, here we're showing that picture, it almost looks like some kind
20:08of excursion.
20:11That's not the case here, though, because these are people who are desperate, who are
20:15carrying their children, literally their bags that you see them carrying have all of their
20:23belongings that they that they brought with them to start new lives.
20:28Explain for us what you saw at the start of this trek.
20:31Yeah, I think what was so surprising at the beginning of the trail was how much stuff
20:37people brought along, not really knowing how physically grueling it would be.
20:42I think it's one thing to have a sort of understanding of how tough the trail would be.
20:47It's another thing to be 24 hours in to start running out of food and water, to be carrying
20:53mats for sleeping and many changes of clothes, and then starting to realize that it was just
20:59physically impossible to be able to carry one's own children, the things they needed.
21:05And so people started just abandoning things along the way, along the route.
21:10So, yes, while in the beginning of this trail, it seemed almost like a tourism trek through
21:16a river. Of course, the irony is these are people fleeing for their lives.
21:21You know, some were more informed than others.
21:23Some were better prepared than others.
21:26But some people, it was sort of shocking how little they had to be able to survive and how
21:31little they knew about how grueling this trek actually would be.
21:35Some were told it would just take a couple of days.
21:37It wouldn't be that difficult.
21:38And as you note in this piece, that that obviously was not the case.
21:42Caitlin, you spent a lot of time focusing on a Venezuelan family, a father traveling
21:48with the mother of his children, his partner and his partner's cousin.
21:53There are four children with them in total, and they've had to make those decisions in
21:59real time. Children, hungry, tired, they're having to lose some of their belongings as
22:04they're going. The internal tension between this group as they're going on, on these
22:12sleepless, grueling days.
22:14But what really stood out to me is that you told us a bit more detail about who they were.
22:20He trained, he went to college, studied to be an engineer, his partner, a nurse.
22:25You know, when we ask the question, who are these people?
22:29That gives you a bit of a sense of their backgrounds.
22:32That's right. And you can see her.
22:34Lindsay did such an incredible job documenting how physically grueling this journey was.
22:41And, and there are so many layers to their story.
22:45They're almost a classic case in the Darien Gap.
22:48I mentioned there's an incredible amount of diversity, people from all over the world
22:51and all different backgrounds.
22:53But there are a lot of people like this family, you know, Berkon and Orly Marr, the two
22:57parents were from middle class homes.
22:59Berkon's mother was a lawyer, Orly Marr's mother was a doctor.
23:04He had been studying to become an engineer, as you mentioned.
23:07She, a nurse. And so they had this whole life set out in front of them.
23:12They were in college when the Venezuelan economy began to spiral.
23:17And that was around 2014.
23:18Obviously, it hasn't recovered since.
23:21Things have only become more dangerous, more unstable and certainly economically untenable.
23:27And so they sort of watched this middle class future that they were planning for vanish
23:33before their eyes.
23:34And another thing that makes their case a common one in the Darien Gap is that they
23:39tried to resettle elsewhere before moving toward the United States.
23:44You know, they were very clear with us.
23:45Their goal is to get back to Venezuela.
23:47They're not chasing an American dream and they'd prefer to be at home.
23:51But because Venezuela was was so impossible for them as a family, they moved first to
23:57Peru. You know, they were working odd jobs.
23:59They were sleeping in a studio apartment on a mattress that they dragged in from the
24:03street and they weren't able to feed their kids.
24:06And so they were given an opportunity when a family member's boyfriend who lived in
24:11Texas offered to lend them some money to get to the United States.
24:14And they really felt like that was throwing a Hail Mary past to try to save their lives
24:19and their children's futures.
24:21Not something that they wanted to be doing, but they felt they had no other choice.
24:26And so much of this, and rightly so, is focused on the children who are brought along
24:32this journey and make this dangerous trek.
24:35So many, sadly, don't make it through.
24:39One hundred and sixty thousand children, according to UNICEF, crossed the Darien Gap this
24:43year. That's a 34 percent increase just from last year alone.
24:47And Lindsey, you photograph a really intimate moment between a seven year old girl
24:52comforting her crying mother, a child comforting her mother.
24:57Tell us about this picture.
24:58Yeah, I mean, this moment in particular was so heartbreaking because you see these
25:03children and many of the parents say we're going on an adventure.
25:07They're trying to sort of allay any fears and make it seem like they're doing something
25:11fun and not something, of course, that is life threatening and is extraordinarily
25:16difficult. But most of the parents we saw, most of the people we accompanied, had a
25:22moment where they broke down because it's just so physically grueling, but also
25:28emotionally terrifying because so many things can go wrong at so many different points
25:33along the journey. And so in that moment, Sue's edge was what her mother was crying.
25:39And it was just amazing to see this young girl come over and comfort her mother,
25:45because, of course, these kids are forced into these roles suddenly where they have to
25:50be almost like a caregiver in certain moments or they have to provide some sort of
25:55support and say, it's OK, we're going to make it.
25:58It's OK, let's keep going.
26:00And, you know, the whole time I thought about my own children while I was taking these
26:05photographs and making this journey, you know, the courage that it takes to be able to
26:12bring your children on a journey like this.
26:14I mean, some of the scenes we cropped were boulders, wet boulders where people had to
26:20scale the walls with ropes and hope that the ropes were attached strongly enough that
26:25that would hold the weight of whoever was crossing, walking through rivers for hours at a
26:30time, you know, in and out of rivers, sleeping in hammocks or on the ground, being
26:37constantly wet.
26:39It was very difficult.
26:42And we don't have specific numbers as to how many people actually die along this trek,
26:46but you took one photo.
26:49It's very chilling, gives you a sense that many don't make it.
26:53It's just it's a skull by a tree trunk that you also took there.
26:59You see there a reminder that not everyone comes out of this alive.
27:02And I have to say, Lindsay, what really stood out to me, there was an interview that you
27:08conducted with a Vietnamese mother who made the trek with her young son on the fifth day
27:13of this trek. She lost him.
27:15They got both pulled into into water in a flood.
27:19And she never found him again and moved to the United States.
27:24Now, I believe, works at a nail salon in Boston.
27:27And it's constantly asking you if there's any information about her son.
27:33A really important piece and really humanizes this tragic story that the whole world
27:39really should be focused on because it is something that impacts all of us.
27:44Caitlin Dickerson, Lindsay Adario, thank you so much.
27:48Thank you so much for having us.
27:50Thank you. Well, next to something that has the potential to influence several of the
27:55issues we have discussed in the show so far from climate change to presidential elections,
28:00and that is artificial intelligence.
28:03Demis Hassabis is the co-founder and CEO of one of the world's leading AI research
28:08groups, Google DeepMind.
28:09And he tells Walter Isaacson why he takes a cautiously optimistic approach to the much
28:15discussed technology.
28:17Thank you, Biana and Demis Hassabis.
28:20Welcome to the show.
28:22Thanks for having me. We now I think you're in your London office there and behind you
28:29probably is that wonderful first edition of Alan Turing's 1950 paper in which he asked
28:36a proposed to address the question, can machines think?
28:40Now we've got a lot of large language models such as Google Gemini, which you helped
28:46create and chat GPT from open AI.
28:50How do we get from a chat bot that kind of can pass the Turing test, fool a person
28:56that thinking it's human to something that's really serious, like artificial general
29:01intelligence, AGI, what you call the Holy Grail?
29:05Yeah, well, look, it's a great question, and of course, there's been unbelievably
29:08impressive progress and fast progress in the last decade plus, as you say, getting
29:13towards systems that we have today that can pass a Turing test.
29:18But it's still far from general intelligence.
29:20What we're missing is things like planning and memory and tool use so they can
29:24actively solve problems for us and actually do tasks.
29:28So right now what we have is kind of passive systems.
29:31We need these active systems.
29:33Wait, explain to me what planning is.
29:35I know you and I do it.
29:36How does a machine do it?
29:38Well, we've experimented a lot in the past with planning, actually using games.
29:42So one of our most famous programs back in 2016 was AlphaGo, which was the program
29:47that we built to beat the world champion at Go, the ancient game of Go.
29:52And involves building a model of the board game and what kinds of moves would be
29:57good. And then on top of that, that's not enough to play really well.
30:00You also need to be able to try out different moves sort of in your mind and then
30:05plan and figure out which one, which path is the best path.
30:09And so today's models don't do that.
30:11The language models.
30:12And really, we need to build that planning capability, the ability to break down a
30:16task into its subtasks and then solve each one in the right order to achieve some
30:21bigger goal. They're still missing that capability.
30:24Tell me why the use of games is so important to the development of artificial
30:28intelligence.
30:30Yeah, games got me.
30:31It was what got me into artificial intelligence in the first place.
30:34It was playing a lot of chess for the England junior teams and then trying to improve my
30:39own thought processes led me to thinking about mechanizing intelligence and
30:43artificial intelligence.
30:45And so we used games and we started DeepMind back in 2010 as a testing ground, a
30:50proving ground for our algorithmic ideas and developing artificial intelligence
30:55systems. And one reason that's so good is because games have clear objectives, you
31:00know, to win the game or maximize the points that you can score in a game.
31:04So it's very easy to sort of map out and track if you're making progress with your
31:09artificial intelligence system.
31:11So it's a very convenient way, actually, to develop the algorithmic ideas that, you
31:15know, now underpin modern AI systems.
31:18I think most of us have now used the chatbots like Gemini or ChatGPT, but you've
31:24talked not only about moving us to artificial general intelligence, in other words, the
31:28type of intelligence that can do anything a human could do, but also, I guess I'd call
31:33it real world intelligence, you know, robots or self-driving cars, things that could
31:38take in visual information and do things in the physical world.
31:42How important is that and how do you get there?
31:44Yeah, it's incredibly important.
31:46I think this idea of embodied intelligence is sometimes called and self-driving cars
31:50are an example of that, and robotics is another example where these systems can then
31:55actually interact with the real world, as you say, the world of atoms, so to speak, and
32:02not just be stuck in the world of bits.
32:04So that's going to be a huge advance that I think we're going to see in that space in
32:08the next few years.
32:10And that's also going to involve this planning capability and the ability to sort of
32:15do actions and carry out plans in order to achieve certain goals.
32:22And that's not the only area of real world, I would say, application.
32:25The one other area that I'm super passionate about and the reason I have spent my whole
32:29career building AI is to apply AI to science, scientific problems, scientific discovery,
32:35and including our program AlphaFold that cracked the grand challenge of protein folding.
32:40Yeah, tell me a little bit more about AlphaFold, because what it can do is understand
32:44RNA, DNA, all these things that we think determine what a protein looks like, but
32:49actually it's the folding of the protein.
32:51How important and hard was that and what is it going to do for us?
32:55Well, the protein folding problem is a 50 year kind of grand challenge in biology.
33:00One of the biggest challenges in biology was sort of proposed in the 1970s by a Nobel
33:04Prize winner, Anne Fienneson.
33:06And the idea was that can you determine the 3D structure of a protein?
33:10You know, everything in life depends on proteins, all your muscles in your body,
33:14all the functions of your body are supported by proteins.
33:18And what a protein does depends on its 3D shape, how it folds up in the body.
33:23And the conjecture was, could you predict the 3D shape of a protein based just on its
33:30two-dimensional, sort of one-dimensional genetic sequence, right?
33:34So, just a string of numbers.
33:36Sometimes it's called the amino acid sequence.
33:38And can you predict the 3D structure of the protein just from its amino acid sequence?
33:43And if you could do that, that would be really important for understanding biology and
33:47the processes in the body, but also designing things like drugs and cures for diseases
33:51and understanding when something goes wrong and how to design a drug to bind to a
33:56certain part of the protein.
33:57So, it's a really foundational, fundamental problem in biology.
34:00And we managed to pretty much sort of crack that problem with AlphaFold.
34:05There's so many large language models competing.
34:08It's almost like a racetrack in which Google Gemini, yours is up there against OpenAI and
34:14against Grok from XAI.
34:17And Meta, I think, has its own in Anthropic.
34:21One of the things that seems to distinguish the latest model of Google Gemini is that
34:27it's multimodal, meaning it can look at images, it can hear words, not just deal with
34:32text. Explain that to me, and if that's a differentiator.
34:36Yeah, that was one of the key things we did when we were designing our Gemini system was
34:40to make it, as you said, so-called multimodal from the beginning.
34:43And what that means is it doesn't just deal with language and text, but also images and
34:48video processing and code and audio.
34:51So, all the different modalities we as human beings sort of use and exist in.
34:55And we've always thought that was critical for the AI systems and models to be able to
35:00understand. If we want them to understand the world around us and build models of the
35:04world and how the world works and be useful to us as perhaps digital assistants or
35:08something like that, they need to really have a good grounding and understanding of how
35:13the world works.
35:14And in order to do that, they have to be multimodal.
35:17They have to process all these different types of information, not just text and
35:21language. And so we built Gemini from the beginning to be natively multimodal.
35:26So it had that ability from the start.
35:28And we were envisaging things like a digital assistant, a universal assistant that can
35:32understand the world around you and therefore be much more helpful.
35:35But also, if you think about things like robotics or anything in the operating in the
35:39real world, it also needs to interact with and deal with real world problems, things like
35:44spatial relations and context that you're in.
35:48So we think it's kind of fundamental for general intelligence.
35:51The big news in the past week or two was Meta, Facebook, coming out with Llama, its
36:00form of a competitor in some ways to Google Gemini and OpenAI's system.
36:07And Mark Zuckerberg, when he introduced it, made a big deal about it being open source.
36:14You've been on, you know, that debate better than anybody.
36:17Tell me why the full fledged Google Gemini is not open source and whether Mark
36:24Zuckerberg is right to say this is important.
36:28It's definitely very important.
36:29We're huge, Google DeepMind and Google in general are huge supporters of open source
36:34software. We've put out, I mean, we were just discussing AlphaFold earlier.
36:38That is open source.
36:40You know, over two million biologists and scientists around the world make use of it
36:44today in pretty much every country in the world to do their important research work.
36:49We've published thousands of papers now on all the underlying technologies and
36:56architectures required for building modern AI systems, including most famously the
37:01Transformers papers that is the architecture that underlies pretty much all the modern
37:06language models and foundational models.
37:08So we very much believe in that's the fastest way to make scientific progress is to
37:15share information. That's always been the case.
37:17That's why science works.
37:18Now, in this particular case with AGI systems, I think we need to think about as they
37:24get more powerful. So not today's models.
37:26I think that's fine.
37:27But, you know, as we get closer to artificial general intelligence, you know, what about
37:32the issues around bad actors, whether that's individuals or up to nation states, using
37:38these things, repurposing these same models, their dual purpose, they can be used for
37:42good. Obviously, that's why I worked on AI my whole career is, you know, to help cure
37:46diseases and maybe help with things like climate change and so on, advanced science and
37:51medicine. But they can also be used for harm if incorrectly used by bad actors.
37:55So that's the question I think that we're going to have to sort of resolve as a
37:59community and a research community is how do we enable all the amazing good use cases
38:05of AI and share information amongst well-meaning actors, you know, researchers and so
38:10on to advance the field and come up with amazing new applications that are benefiting
38:15humanity. But at the same time, restrict access to would-be bad actors to do harmful
38:21things with those same systems by repurposing them in a different way.
38:25And I think that's the conundrum that we're going to have to sort of solve somehow with
38:30this debate about open systems versus closed systems.
38:34And I don't think there's a clear answer yet or consensus about how to do that as the
38:40systems improve.
38:41But of course, you know, I congratulate Mark Zuckerberg and Meta on their great new
38:46model. And I think this is useful to stimulate the debate on this topic.
38:52One of the things that can make an AI system really great is the training data that it
38:58can use. And you're at Google, you're on YouTube, this show will be on YouTube, our
39:03segment pretty soon.
39:06Is Google Gemini, it trains on YouTube unless somebody stops it.
39:11It also can train on my books.
39:13It could read any book I wrote.
39:15What is to how do we regulate that Google Gemini can't just take all this data and
39:23intellectual property without some deals?
39:27Yeah, we're very well, we're very careful at Google to respect all of those kind of
39:32copyright issues and to only train on the open web, whether that's YouTube or the web
39:37in general. And then obviously we have content deals as well.
39:43And so, you know, this is going to be an interesting question as well for the whole
39:47industry and the whole research industry is how to tackle this going forwards.
39:52We also have a Google opt outs to allow any website to opt out of those of training if
39:57they want to do that. And many people take advantage of that.
40:01And then in the fullness of time, I think we need to develop some new technologies where
40:06we can do sort of attribution or some form of, you know, this input training input
40:12helped in some fractional way, some output, and then derive some commercial value from
40:18that that can flow back to the content creators.
40:22I think that technology is not there yet, but I think we need to develop that, you
40:26know, analogous to that would be content ID for YouTube that YouTube has had for many,
40:30many years and runs very well in order for the creator community as well to benefit
40:34massively from the distribution that YouTube gives.
40:37And I think that's a good example that we're trying to follow, you know, with the in
40:43the space, you know, as an example, like the way YouTube is the YouTube ecosystem is
40:48developed. In the fascinating biography of your life, there's something almost as
40:53important as being a game player and a game designer, and that's you have a Ph.D.
40:58in cognitive neuroscience.
41:00You love the human brain.
41:02How important is it to understand how the human brain works in order to do AI?
41:08And is there something that's always going to be fundamentally different between a
41:11silicon based digital system and the wetware of the human brain?
41:17Yeah, you're right. So I did my Ph.D., you know, nearly 20 years ago now in the mid
41:212000s. And I think back in those times in the early parts of DeepMind, early 2010s, it
41:26was very important to have inspiration from both from machine learning and mathematics,
41:31as well as neuroscience and inspiration for the human brain as to how intelligence might
41:36work. So it's not that you want to slavishly copy how the brain works, because as you
41:40pointed out, our brains are carbon based and our computers are silicon based.
41:45So there's no reason why the mechanics should work in the same way.
41:48And in fact, they work quite differently.
41:49But a lot of the algorithmic principles and the systems and the architectures and the
41:53principles behind intelligence are in common, including, you know, in the first
41:59early days of neural networks, you know, the things that underpins all modern AI were
42:03originally inspired by neuroscience and synapses in the brain.
42:07And so the implementation details are different.
42:10But the algorithmic ideas were extremely valuable in terms of kickstarting what we see
42:16as the modern AI revolution today, including this idea of learning systems, reinforcement
42:21learning and systems that learn for themselves, very much like biological systems in our
42:26own brains do. And then ultimately, you know, maybe when we build AGI, we'll be able to
42:32use that to back to analyze our own minds so that we can understand the neuroscience
42:36better and finally understand, you know, the workings of our own brains.
42:39So I love the kind of whole circle here of this kind of virtuous circle of them
42:44influencing each other.
42:46Here's something you've said, quote, mitigating the risk of extinction from AI should be a
42:52global priority.
42:54What are those risks?
42:56Look, I think that was a sort of open letter that I and many others signed, and I think it
43:02was important to put that in the Overton window of things that need to be discussed.
43:07You know, I think nobody knows the timescales of that yet or the worries of that.
43:10I think we're still at the current systems, impressive, though they are still quite far from
43:15artificial general intelligence.
43:17And also, we don't know what the risks levels are of that.
43:20Maybe it'll turn out to be very simple to navigate, you know, controllability of these
43:25systems. How do we interpret them?
43:28How do we make sure when we set them goals, you know, these more agent based systems, they
43:33don't go and do something else on the side that we didn't intend, unintended consequences.
43:37You know, there's lots of science fiction books written about that.
43:40Most of Asimov's books are about those kinds of scenarios.
43:43So we want to avoid all those things so that we make sure we use systems for good and for
43:48amazing things, you know, solving diseases, you know, helping with climate, inventing new
43:53materials, all these incredible things that I think are going to come about in the next
43:56decade or so.
43:57But we need to understand these systems better.
44:00And I think over that time, we'll also understand the risks involved about runaway
44:04systems that are doing unintended consequences or bad actors using these systems in
44:11nefarious ways, you know, that may end up all to be a very low probability likelihood.
44:16And let's hope that's the case.
44:17But right now, there's a lot of uncertainty over it.
44:21So as a scientist, you know, the way I deal with that, I think the only sort of responsible
44:25approach to that is to approach it with cautious optimism.
44:28So I'm very optimistic, obviously, that human ingenuity collectively will work this all
44:33out. You know, I'm very confident of that.
44:35Otherwise, I wouldn't have started this whole journey 30 years ago for myself.
44:39But, you know, it's not a given.
44:42Right. So there are some unknowns that we need to do research on and and focus on to
44:47understand and things like analysis of these systems.
44:49So they're not just black box systems that we actually understand and can control and
44:53look at how knowledge is represented in these systems.
44:56And then we'll be able to understand the risks and the probability of those risks and
45:01then mitigate against those.
45:03So really, it was just a call to action to pay more attention to that, as well as all
45:06the exciting commercial potential that everyone's wrapped up in.
45:10We should also think at the same time about the risks.
45:13But, you know, still be optimistic about that, but approach it with the respect that it
45:18deserves for such a transformative technology that AI is.
45:22So, Demis Hassabis, thank you for being with us.
45:26Thanks for having me.
45:27And now we look back at the moment a giant of American literature and a cinema
45:32mastermind came together.
45:34The first big screen adaptation of a James Baldwin novel, If Beale Street Could Talk,
45:39displays all the cinematic gifts of Oscar winning director Barry Jenkins, telling the
45:44complicated love story of devoted couple Tish and Fonny derailed by a false rape
45:49accusation. And as we commemorate Baldwin's 100th birthday this month, we revisit
45:54Christian's conversation with Jenkins, speaking about what drew him to the story and
46:00why more diversity is needed in the entertainment industry.
46:03Yeah, for me, you know, I've always been a really big fan and admirer of James
46:07Baldwin's work. And Mr.
46:09Baldwin had quite a few voices he wrote in.
46:11But two of those voices in particular that always stood out to me was the one voice
46:14that was obsessed with romance, romanticism, interpersonal relationships, and the
46:20other voice that was just as obsessed and passionate about pointing out systemic
46:23injustice. And I felt like in this book, If Beale Street Could Talk, those two voices
46:28were perfectly fused in the story of Tish and Fonny.
46:30I mean, they really are perfectly fused.
46:32So Tish is the young girl.
46:33She's 19. Fonny is her boyfriend.
46:35They've known each other, you know, from when they were little, little children.
46:39And they grew up into this really deep and sweet and wonderful love.
46:44And then he gets framed for a rape that he didn't do, that his family is trying to get
46:50him out of jail for.
46:52But here's this moment.
46:53We want to play a fairly lengthy clip of Tish's family telling Fonny's family that
47:00she's actually pregnant.
47:01Let's just listen.
47:04That child that's coming is your grandchild.
47:11I don't understand you.
47:13It's your grandchild.
47:16What difference does it make how he gets here?
47:19The child ain't got nothing to do with that.
47:22Ain't none of us got nothing to do with that.
47:27That child.
47:30That child.
47:42Get your s***.
47:45Take your s*** with you.
47:51It is such a remarkable scene and such a remarkable event for a family to stick up so
48:07dramatically for their unwed pregnant daughter and to kick the other one out of the
48:13house. Tell me what you were saying about the African-American family in that scene.
48:20You know, for one, you know, it's taken directly from the source material.
48:23So Mr. Baldwin brings these two families together in the novel.
48:27And I felt like that scene was so powerful on the page that it would be just as powerful
48:31on screen. I think for me it was a few different things.
48:34One in particular is, you know, we have eight, you know, black adults, you know, sitting
48:38in a living room confronted with the same situation.
48:41And we assume that black people are a monolith and they all think the same way and
48:47respond to the same stimulus in the same way.
48:50But I think in the sequence we see these two families, you know, who are from the same
48:54place in the same time, take very different approaches to how to deal with the
48:58situation and the circumstance.
49:00And, you know, for me as a director, you know, I love getting into the nuance of
49:04interpersonal relationships.
49:05And I think Regina King and that clip and Ajinou Ellis just do such a great job of as
49:11two black mothers, you know, responding in very different ways that have to say as much
49:15about themselves as people as it does the situation in front of them.
49:18And Regina King, we've already pointed out, did win a Golden Globe as best supporting
49:24actress in that drama.
49:26And remarkable.
49:28And her speech was remarkable, too.
49:30She says that in the next two years, everything that I produce, I'm making a vow that
49:34it's going to be tough to make sure that everything I produce is 50 percent women.
49:38And I just challenge anyone out there who's in a position of power to do the same.
49:42I mean, you know, taking on the whole issue of women in film today, obviously in the
49:46post-MeToo environment as well.
49:48What do you make of that challenge?
49:50Is that something that you would take up?
49:53Yeah, yeah. My company, Pastel, agrees with Regina's mandate and we've undertaken it
49:57ourselves. You know, when we make up half the movie going audience, you know, they
50:01make up half the population.
50:02And at Sundance, the Sundance Film Festival this year, they'll make up half the
50:05directors in competition.
50:07Yet they somehow end up making up only four percent of studio directors.
50:10So how do we get the four percent to eight percent to 12 percent?
50:13It's by creating mandates like Regina stated.
50:16You know, Ava DuVernay, who won, was the first woman to win, first black woman to win
50:21the directing prize at the Sundance Film Festival.
50:23She started a show on own called Queen Sugar, and she made the mandate that every
50:27director of that series would be a woman.
50:30And what's happened is the women who've directed on Queen Sugar have now gone on to
50:34direct episodes of other television shows and created their own television shows.
50:38And clearly they had the aptitude, they had the talent, but they did not have the
50:41access. And I think Regina's mandate is about creating the access because the people
50:45are there. And even obviously Frances McDormand, when she won her last Oscar, talked
50:50about inclusion mandates.
50:52So you're getting a lot of support from a lot of corners.
50:54And I wonder whether you think this explosion in diversity is real and it's here to
50:58stay. You know, you mentioned Ava DuVernay, Wrinkle in Time, Spike Lee, of course,
51:03Black Klansman, Steve McQueen's Widows, Boots Riley, Sorry to Bother You, Ryan
51:07Coogler, Black Panther, all these films making so many waves over the last year or so.
51:14Yeah, I think I think it takes a multi-pronged approach, and I think also we have to
51:17look at things over the duration of time.
51:19You know, we've had these moments of diversity and inclusion that have popped up over
51:24the course of the last few decades, but they're reduced to moments.
51:27You know, they're not they're not an actual process.
51:29And so I think right now we're trying to build a process.
51:31That's why I use Ava as a perfect example.
51:33That show, Queen Sugar, is now in its third season.
51:36So I believe that's about 30 episodes of television directed by women.
51:39Typically, women are 10 percent, I want to say, of television directors.
51:43And so I think by creating a fertile ground, you know, where these directors who have
51:48typically been excluded from the process can be included to prove they can do the same
51:52work as their counterparts, I think that's the way we have a continual progress that
51:56becomes a direction, not necessarily a destination.
52:00Let me ask you also about the topic.
52:01You've talked a lot about women, but also you take on black, rather male masculinity.
52:08You did it, well, black male masculinity, frankly.
52:10You did it in Moonlight, a young gay man, boy growing up.
52:15Mother was a crack addict.
52:16It's the first time that character has been so portrayed.
52:19And again, here in If Beale Street Could Talk, you know, the quintessential love and
52:27goodness that, you know, that the male character, Fonny, displayed, even as he was
52:34being railroaded, you know, framed for this crime that he did not commit.
52:39These are very special portrayals.
52:43Yeah, you know, I just happen to have the honor of adapting, you know, really amazing
52:48writers, you know, Tarell Alvin McCraney, who wrote the play that Moonlight is based on
52:51as a MacArthur genius and James Baldwin as a genius, period.
52:54So in a way, I'm kind of cheating.
52:56But I think that both between myself and the actors, we're looking to just basically
53:01reflect the world that we see.
53:02You know, you know, black men have innocence and tenderness in their hearts, you know,
53:06but we rarely see that innocence and tenderness rendered, you know, in mass media.
53:12So I think for us, when we're making these films, it's just about reflecting the
53:15characters that we see in our everyday lives.
53:17You know, Brian Tyree Henry, Stephon James, you know, a very warm, very just amazing
53:22young men. I think they bring part of themselves to these roles.
53:25And you're absolutely right.
53:27You know, part of what I love about this job is getting the opportunity to show all the
53:32multitudes, you know, of blackness.
53:34You know, I think working from this book by James Baldwin, which does contain
53:38multitudes, we can speak to both the light, you know, and the darkness of this
53:42particular aspect of the black experience.
53:46And I mean, on a larger level, is that what you're trying to build?
53:49This engagement between different elements of society at a time when everything is so
53:55polarized, not to mention the enduring racism?
53:58I do believe so.
53:59And I think it was one of the main reasons why I gravitated towards this book.
54:03You know, if I was to go to a desert island, you know, I wouldn't take any of the films
54:06I've made with me, you know, because it's not about me.
54:08You know, I think a film is meant to be shared.
54:10And I also feel like, too, in this novel, Mr.
54:13Baldwin is unpacking so many things.
54:16And I think he's implicating all of us in a certain way.
54:18You know, Fonny is falsely accused of a crime he did not commit, but he's not falsely
54:22accused of anything. He's chosen out of a police lineup.
54:24And he's placed in a police lineup by an officer who has decided to manipulate the
54:28system. Because of that, the actual victim in the story has been disenfranchised.
54:32And the truth or justice is not what's at stake, you know, is not what the system is
54:37trying to arrive at.
54:38So I think in that way, Mr.
54:39Baldwin points out so many of these things.
54:41And I think in making the film, you know, I'm hoping that we can just raise a mirror
54:44to show how the systems we've chosen to engage in, whether it's through elections or
54:49whether it's through the way we vote, all these things in a certain way, you know, if
54:53they're not serving us, who are they serving?
54:55And I think ultimately we're all being disenfranchised on some level.
54:58A really inspiring conversation with Barry Jenkins there.
55:02Well, coming up next week, a Broadway hit for the TikTok generation.
55:06The new play Job tackles social media toxicity head on as its main character, Jane, an
55:12online content moderator, suffers a breakdown and works through it with a therapist.
55:18Lots of twists in this one.
55:19Tune in for my interview with playwright Max Wolf Friedlich and actors Peter Friedman
55:25and Sidney Lemon, who tell me about the intense experience of delving into the darkest
55:30recesses of the Internet each night on Broadway.
55:34And that's it for our program tonight.
55:36If you want to find out what's coming up on the show each night, sign up for our
55:39newsletter at PBS.org slash Amanpour.
55:41Thank you so much for watching Amanpour & Company on PBS.
55:44Join us again next week.