Amanpour & Co. - July 25, 2024
Ahead of the opening ceremony of the Summer Olympics in Paris, Christiane speaks with two-time tennis Olympic gold medallist Andy Murray. French Sports Minister Amélie Oudéa-Castéra discusses preparing a city to host the Olympics and how sports can rise above politics. Michael Waters explores the history of transgender athletes and the Olympics in his new book “The Other Olympians.”
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour & Co. from Paris.
00:09Here's what's coming up.
00:14Let the games begin.
00:15We have a special show as the Paris Olympics kick off.
00:18First...
00:19I love tennis, but I'm not able to train and prepare as well as I used to.
00:24Two-time Olympic tennis champion Andy Murray joins us
00:27as he announces Paris will be his farewell to the profession.
00:32And...
00:33We are very focused, very concentrated.
00:35We have very well prepared,
00:37but we know it's a heavy responsibility on our shoulders,
00:41but we are up to the challenge.
00:43Can sport unite a fractured France and a fractured world?
00:47I ask the sports minister, Amélie Oudéa-Castérac, also ahead.
00:52It strikes me that we've been having the same conversation
00:56kind of over and over again,
00:58and often a race from all of this is the athletes themselves.
01:02The other Olympians.
01:03Author Michael Waters tells Hari Sreenivasan
01:06about the gripping true stories of pioneering trans
01:10and intersex athletes competing in the 1930s.
01:23Amenpour & Co. is made possible by
01:26Jim Atwood and Leslie Williams
01:29Candice King Weir
01:31The Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poita Programming Endowment
01:35to Fight Anti-Semitism
01:37The Family Foundation of Leila and Mickey Strauss
01:41Mark J. Bleschner
01:43The Philemon A. & B. Poita Programming Endowment
01:47The Family Foundation of Leila and Mickey Strauss
01:50Mark J. Bleschner
01:52The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation
01:55Seton J. Melvin
01:57The Peter G. Peterson & Joan Gantz Cooney Fund
02:00Charles Rosenblum
02:02Kou & Patricia Ewen
02:04Committed to Bridging Cultural Differences in Our Communities
02:08Barbara Hope Zuckerberg
02:10Jeffrey Katz & Beth Rogers
02:12And by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.
02:19Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:21I'm Christiane Amanpour in Paris,
02:23where the Olympic flame is making its way through this city of light
02:27before tomorrow's opening ceremony.
02:30100 years since they held their last Summer Games.
02:33That was 1924.
02:35Athletes from 206 Olympic national teams
02:38are descending on the French capital
02:41as the world tries to unite
02:43and the Olympic ideals of excellence, respect and friendship.
02:47These games will see the return of superstar champions
02:51like the British diving prodigy Tom Daley,
02:54the Jamaican sprinter Shelley-Anne Fraser-Price
02:57and, of course, the American gymnast Simone Biles.
03:01It'll be an Olympiad like no other with new sports,
03:04such as breaking, also known as breakdancing.
03:07And for the first time ever, there will be gender parity.
03:11More than 10,000 male and female athletes competing side by side.
03:16My first guest tonight knows these games very well.
03:20The British tennis star Andy Murray
03:22is the only man to take gold twice in men's singles.
03:26We met here earlier this morning ahead of his training
03:29for this, his final professional competition.
03:34Andy Murray, welcome to the program.
03:37It's a big deal, this, right?
03:39Not only are you in the Olympics for your country,
03:42but you're retiring after this.
03:44Are there all sorts of mixed emotions?
03:47Right now, not really.
03:49A couple of months ago, I definitely was...
03:52I was unsure about when I wanted to finish
03:55or if I wanted to finish.
03:57I was finding the...
03:59You know, making that decision quite difficult
04:01and I obviously consulted, you know, my family and my team.
04:04But ultimately, you know, the decision had to come from me
04:08but as I, like, sit here today, I'm really happy about it.
04:12I'm happy that I get to finish playing in the Olympics
04:15with, you know, a lot of my...
04:17You know, I consider a lot of the tennis players on our team
04:20like close friends of mine and getting to be around them
04:23and, you know, have great memories from the Olympics.
04:26So, you know, I'm happy about it.
04:28You know, we're all obviously really watching this business
04:32of age and retirement.
04:33Obviously, Joe Biden has stepped off the stage.
04:36You know, Nadal, we don't know what he's doing.
04:39Federer has stepped off the stage.
04:41He did a whole movie about his retirement.
04:43We don't know what's going to happen with Djokovic.
04:46You know, everybody in your profession
04:48seems to have so many injuries.
04:50You're obviously young.
04:51You know, you're being forced...
04:53I don't feel it.
04:54You don't feel it? No.
04:55How do you feel?
04:57I mean, mentally, I still feel young,
04:59but physically, you know, the last few years
05:01have been really hard for me.
05:03I've gone through quite a lot of surgeries,
05:05and I've had a lot of injuries, and...
05:08Yeah, and that's why I'm ready to finish playing,
05:11because, you know, I'm still very competitive,
05:13and I want to be out there.
05:15I love tennis,
05:16but I'm not able to train and prepare as well as I used to.
05:19Here we are at the Olympics.
05:21You are a two-time Olympic winner, gold medalist.
05:24You've won Wimbledon twice.
05:26You've won the US Open twice.
05:2846, you know, titles.
05:30And you've been number one,
05:32and you helped your country win the Davis Cup in 2015.
05:35How do you feel today about your accomplishments,
05:38on and off the court?
05:40Um...
05:41I'm really proud of what I've achieved.
05:44I've worked extremely hard throughout my career.
05:47I've given, you know, I feel like,
05:50as much as I could to my profession.
05:53You know, I feel like I've worked hard,
05:57and I'm proud of what I've achieved.
06:00Obviously, you know, when you look back and reflect on things...
06:04..or the way I am,
06:06there's always things I wish I'd done a bit differently, probably,
06:09and there's a few regrets in there,
06:11but on the whole, yeah, I did as best as I could,
06:14and I'm comfortable with that.
06:16And what do the Olympics mean to you?
06:18Because it's somewhat different than a Grand Slam event,
06:21mentally, I suppose, and in terms of teamwork.
06:24Yeah, it is different, and I've always fed off that.
06:27I've really enjoyed the whole team, you know, atmosphere,
06:31and, you know, that's been a big reason
06:34for why I've played some of my best tennis,
06:37and, you know, when I've competed for my country,
06:40you're playing for something just bigger than yourself,
06:43and I've really enjoyed that.
06:45And you ended a 77-year drought
06:47in men's singles winners at Wimbledon.
06:49I mean, that must have felt incredible as well.
06:52It... I mean, when I look back at it, yeah,
06:55I mean, it was...
06:57You know, it was an amazing day for me,
06:59and I think for, you know, sports fans in the UK,
07:02it had been, like you said, it had been a long time.
07:05At the time, I didn't take it in as much as I wish I had done.
07:10I just felt so relieved to finally, you know, finally have done it.
07:14I'd come close quite a few times,
07:16and I guess that was sort of almost what I felt like.
07:20My whole career was sort of building towards,
07:23was trying to win Wimbledon, and if I hadn't have done that,
07:26I probably would have felt like I'd failed in some way.
07:30And because of that, I didn't fully appreciate it.
07:33I just kind of... I was, like, just relieved it had happened.
07:37But then when I look back, like, a few weeks later,
07:40I was like, well, it doesn't end here.
07:42Like, I keep going. You know, what's next?
07:45It was quite... It was quite strange.
07:48What about fans?
07:50I mean, you know, I wonder whether there's a lot of burden you feel
07:54or you have felt throughout your career.
07:56You know, you have a really funny
07:59and sometimes grumpy demeanour on court.
08:02Sometimes is a polite way of putting it, yeah.
08:06And then you are funny and the crowd loves you,
08:09and I remember that long, crazy match in the Australian Open,
08:12I don't know, ended at three in the morning or something crazy,
08:15and you got this huge ovation and everybody stayed to watch you.
08:19What have you taken from the crowd throughout your career,
08:23from the beginning and then as you got better and better?
08:26Yeah, that's probably the thing that I'll...
08:29Well, I'll definitely miss that a lot when I finish.
08:32Like, I think anyone that's playing in professional sport,
08:36like, you want to be playing on the biggest courts and, you know,
08:39in front of... I never minded if the crowd were for or against me.
08:43We were just playing in brilliant atmospheres and...
08:46Really? You never minded?
08:48No, no. I mean, if I was playing in the UK
08:52and, you know, the crowd weren't behind me,
08:55then, you know, you would probably feel that a little bit,
08:58but, you know, when we were playing Davis Cup matches away from home
09:01and playing sort of hostile environments,
09:04like, yeah, I loved that, I enjoyed that,
09:07and there's some of the matches that you remember the most, really.
09:11It's weird for some of us who like and enjoy sports
09:15and then we see, for instance, let's say the British soccer team,
09:18football team, you know, they're often hated or lionised
09:22and I just wondered, why do you think people are like that sometimes
09:26with their own teams, fans, I mean, and the media and the tabloids?
09:31Yeah, it's a fine balance.
09:33Like, obviously, like, trying to win Wimbledon, you know,
09:36I got close quite a few times before doing it
09:38and each time you lost and didn't quite get there,
09:41it felt like there was almost like a backlash, a disappointment
09:45for not achieving that when actually, you know,
09:48making the final of Wimbledon, like, big picture,
09:51is a brilliant result, really, you know,
09:55when the football teams have come close and not quite done it.
10:01I don't know, like, I'm not sure exactly why there is, you know,
10:05a big sort of backlash or negativity around that,
10:10but it's definitely there and, you know, for sure,
10:12the athletes, you know, they feel that.
10:15Throughout your career, do you feel you've been supported,
10:18not only by your own team, obviously, and your family,
10:21but by competitors?
10:23I always, especially tennis,
10:25don't you all end up in the same locker room, you travel?
10:28You know, it's quite interesting to see how you get out there
10:32and it's, you know, mano a mano combat for several hours on the court,
10:36but then there's the handshake, obviously,
10:38and then there's, I guess, the socialising and the friendships
10:41afterwards and despite it all.
10:44Yeah, and it is like a big family travelling with each other
10:47and there's, you know, I've had disagreements and issues
10:51over the years with, you know, not lots of players,
10:54but, you know, it has happened.
10:57But then, now that I'm coming to the end,
11:00I sort of wish I hadn't or tried to resolve some of them sooner
11:05because, at the end of the day, it's sport
11:08and, you know, it's not that important in the big picture.
11:12It feels, at the time, to us like it is,
11:15but, yeah, it's like one big family travelling
11:18and, you know, you want to be respected and liked
11:21by the people that you're working with.
11:24You know, you bring up something interesting, want to be liked.
11:27Everybody says Djokovic is big, sort of,
11:30maybe his mental frailty is wanting to be liked.
11:33Yeah, look, I think, obviously, at times it's been difficult for him
11:37because, you know, Nadal and Federer,
11:41before Novak became, you know, the best player in the world
11:45and, you know, in terms of title and everything,
11:48the best, you know, the best male player,
11:51you know, he's won the most Grand Slams
11:54and had an unbelievable career that, you know,
11:57Rafa and Roger were so loved and had a brilliant rivalry.
12:01I think Novak has huge support around the world,
12:05but, yeah, I think at times it has been difficult for him
12:10to not maybe feel the same support from the crowd
12:14as Rafa and Roger got,
12:17but, you know, he still does have massive support around the world.
12:21I think he's extremely well respected, you know,
12:24not just in tennis but in world sports
12:27because of all of, you know, because of all of his achievements.
12:30And I think at times he's thrived on that as well,
12:33you know, when the crowd hasn't been behind him.
12:36He's played some of his best tennis and his best matches
12:39when that hasn't been the case,
12:41so in a strange way it's maybe helped him achieve more.
12:44But, yeah, I think, you know, it's been hard for him at times.
12:48So you've been, you know, on Safari we talk about the big five,
12:51the big five, you know, beasts that you try to find.
12:54There was the big four at Wimbledon,
12:56you and Rafa and Federer and Novak.
12:59What was it like being part of that pantheon of real greats
13:03and for a long time?
13:05And now I'm afraid you're all sort of...
13:08Were you leaving, Federer's left?
13:10As I said, we don't know about Novak and Nadal.
13:13Yeah, I mean, look, I didn't achieve anything close
13:16to what any of those guys did,
13:18but there was a period where, you know,
13:20often we were competing at the latter stages of all of the major events.
13:25Look, it was...
13:27To be successful in this period has been very hard.
13:31You know, not many players manage to win grand slams
13:34and, you know, get right close to the top of the rankings.
13:37I mean, like I said, it's been amazing
13:39what all three of them have achieved in the same period.
13:43I don't think that we'll see that level of dominance again in tennis.
13:49But, yeah, I'm proud of the small part that I played in that
13:53and I think the achievements that I had in this period, yeah,
13:58mean a lot because of how great those guys have been
14:01and how hard it has been to win major events during this period.
14:05So it's been special to see how they've also driven each other
14:09to go to the levels that they have and achieve what they have.
14:12So, yeah.
14:14And who would... If I asked you who you would bet on,
14:17who you would see as the next great,
14:20is it Alkaraz, who's already great?
14:22Is it Sinner, who's already great, well, he's number one?
14:25Who is it in the men and the women, in fact?
14:28Yeah, so it's always difficult because you don't know
14:31the next sort of 16-, 17-year-old that's coming through.
14:34I won't have watched them play and I don't know.
14:37Maybe there's some young players that come through in the next few years
14:41that are better than all of the players at the top just now.
14:45But for me, I love watching Alkaraz play.
14:48He's obviously achieved great things,
14:50so it's easy to sit here now and say that,
14:53but when I watched him and played against him the first time a few years ago,
14:57I just loved the way that he went about things.
15:00He's got a great game and he's already won four majors
15:04and I think will win many more, providing he stays healthy.
15:07And on the women's side, Iga Sviatek.
15:11She's, you know, she's a brilliant, brilliant player.
15:16She's done extremely well particularly on the clay courts
15:19and she can make a few adjustments on the other surfaces.
15:22I would expect her to go on and win lots more majors.
15:26It was noted when you took a woman coach, Amelie Moresmo,
15:31and you were, I think, the first male player to have a female coach,
15:35and then came out all these, you know, you really put yourself
15:39noticeably behind equality and equity for women in this sport
15:44and maybe throughout life.
15:46What is it that made you not only have those feelings
15:50but actually speak about it and promote the women's game as well?
15:55Well, it wasn't something I'd really, you know,
15:58when I was in my teenage years or like early 20s on the tour,
16:02it wasn't something I'd given much thought to.
16:04I was focusing on my own career and wasn't, you know,
16:07thinking about much, much else, to be honest.
16:09And then when I started working with Amelie,
16:12things changed for me quite a lot because I obviously recognised
16:16there was a big change in attitude in terms of, well,
16:19the way that players in the locker room were talking to me about her
16:23and, you know, even people who were part of my team.
16:26Negatively?
16:28Yeah, negatively.
16:30You know, the media were obviously very interested in the story,
16:33but each time I lost, I got asked a lot of questions about my coach
16:37and Amelie had never experienced that before.
16:40You know, I realised that this was different
16:43and around that time, I started to have a few more conversations
16:46with my mum about what it's like.
16:48She's worked in tennis for a long time as a female coach
16:51and some of the difficulties and challenges that she's had
16:54and, you know, it was quite eye-opening for me
16:57and that was sort of when I started to realise
17:00that things needed to change a bit.
17:02I mean, even at the French Open this year,
17:04it was noted that a lot of the good women's matches
17:07were during the day and never in the sort of primetime slot in the evening.
17:11Do you think that there is a way still to go,
17:14even though in the Grand Slams they have equal pay?
17:17Yeah, I think there is still a way to go,
17:21but I also think that tennis is one of the best sort of global sports
17:26in terms of how they treat men and women.
17:30It's definitely not perfect,
17:32but I feel like tennis should probably celebrate that side of things
17:35more, the fact that there is equal pay,
17:37that the men and women are always, particularly at major events,
17:40are always competing on the same stage together.
17:43And I think that's one of the brilliant things about tennis
17:47and shouldn't be looked on negatively.
17:49I think it's a positive thing, it's a great message.
17:52I fully support that.
17:54You mentioned your mother, the famous Judy Murray,
17:57who coached you, your brother,
17:59and has been, as you say, a power in tennis and as a female coach.
18:03Now, tell me what it was like being baby Andy Murray,
18:06you know, in the grips of your mum,
18:09who turned you into this.
18:11Did you want to do it?
18:13Yeah, so me and my brother, my memories of us growing up,
18:17we just played all sports together,
18:21whether that was table tennis, squash, gymnastics, golf.
18:26Some of these sports we'd do with our dad.
18:29Our dad played a lot of squash and golf,
18:31and that's, you know, me and my brother would play that with him.
18:34And our holidays, we'd...
18:36..we just played sport.
18:38That was what we loved doing.
18:40Me and my brother were 15 months apart in age,
18:42and obviously with our mum being a tennis coach
18:45and particularly coaching younger players,
18:48she had an understanding of how to teach not just tennis,
18:51but, you know, other sports and hand-eye coordination,
18:54things like that.
18:56So, yeah, just we grew up in that environment,
18:59and, you know, our parents, they never pushed us to play tennis.
19:03There were times when my brother stopped playing tennis for six months
19:06and was playing golf,
19:08and I was focusing more on playing football than tennis.
19:11But, yeah, at one stage, you know,
19:13we both decided that that was what we wanted to do,
19:16and our parents, you know, were unbelievably supportive.
19:19And although at times money was tough,
19:22like, they did everything they could to give us a chance to...
19:25I went to train over in Spain when I was 15.
19:28My brother went to train in France when he was 14, 15 as well.
19:33And, yeah, they supported us as best as they could
19:37and gave us a chance to, you know, live our dream, really.
19:41Apparently, it's been said in the press
19:43that your mother wants to create a...
19:46I don't know whether it's a Murray Centre
19:48or a centre, a tennis centre in Dunblane
19:50where you were born and where you came from.
19:52And Billie Jean King said she hopes the LTA and others
19:55will help support that.
19:57Do you think that that will happen?
19:59Is that something that you will also get behind?
20:01I hope that it happens. Whether it will or not, I don't know, to be honest.
20:06But, yeah, my mum has been trying for a long time
20:10to try and have, you know,
20:13a centre that's, you know, there for the community.
20:19Yeah, to have some form of legacy
20:21for what me and my brother have achieved throughout our career.
20:25That hasn't been the case in Scotland yet.
20:27And, obviously, with me and my brother coming to the end of our career,
20:30I think it's something that my mum has really, really wanted.
20:33And with me and Jamie finishing playing soon,
20:37you know, we'll have the opportunity to be up in Scotland more.
20:40And, you know, I will always love tennis
20:42and always want to be involved in it.
20:44And, you know, we'll try and help, you know,
20:46the next young, you know, British tennis player as much as I can.
20:51And, yeah, I think it would be good
20:53if there was a tennis centre up there.
20:55Many people try to trace back where does drive and ambition
20:58and turning-point moments in young people's lives come from?
21:02Obviously, everybody knows what happened in Dunblane,
21:05the worst British school shooting ever in history at your school.
21:09Do you, when you look back, think that that gave you drive?
21:16I mean, it's impossible to say.
21:19I think that certain things that I've learned from that
21:24throughout my upbringing, through my life,
21:27it was obviously an unbelievably difficult time.
21:29But, you know, the way that the whole city and community,
21:35you know, came together in a really difficult, extremely difficult time
21:41and has, you know, eventually never fully recovered
21:46but has become stronger through that,
21:48like, I definitely learned a lot of strong values from that.
21:55You know, I also, I think also from growing up
21:59with a brother very close in age
22:01that that's something I was constantly competing with him as well.
22:05And, you know, I think that that would have helped
22:08sort of grow my competitive instincts, competitive drive.
22:12Yeah, it is hard to put your finger on one thing.
22:15Billie Jean King, who I know you admire a lot,
22:18has said pressure is a privilege.
22:20And yet it seems that pressure is so intense now.
22:23Maybe it was different when she was, you know, at her height.
22:26It seems it's even more obvious now on all sports,
22:29especially tennis, because you play a very long season,
22:32I mean, a long year.
22:34Is pressure a privilege?
22:38I think it is, providing you...
22:41Well, you have to manage pressure in the right way.
22:45You know, I've found playing tennis at times, you know,
22:48very, you know, very stressful,
22:50you know, the competing side of things.
22:53In the moment, it's not something I'm really enjoying,
22:56but the reward at the end of it, when you win is brilliant.
23:00When you lose, you know, it's hard
23:02and you need, you know, a strong team around you
23:05to support you, you know, support you through that.
23:08But, yeah, I think it has changed now.
23:10There is a lot of focus on sports
23:13and, you know, everyone knows how tricky social media
23:16and things like that can be to manage at times.
23:19But, yeah, it should be.
23:21And, you know, I'm aware now, like, looking back,
23:24how lucky I was to be in the position that I was
23:27to compete for Wimbledon or Olympic Games and things like that.
23:31And if you can remind yourself that when you were a child
23:34or when you were first starting out as a professional athlete
23:37that, you know, you would have signed up to be in this position
23:42and play on the biggest arenas and stages in the world,
23:45you know, you'll be OK.
23:47And if your four kids wanted to go into tennis
23:50or any other competitive sport, what would you say?
23:53Yeah, I would... I'm not saying I would just push them towards tennis,
23:56but I would encourage them to be involved in sport.
23:58I think it teaches lots of amazing lessons in life.
24:01You know, I got to travel the world as a tennis player
24:04when I was 11, 12 years old and experienced things
24:06that I would have never experienced, you know,
24:09if I wasn't playing in sport.
24:11I think it teaches you about, you know, winning and losing
24:15and how to work hard and how to, you know,
24:18recover from setbacks and teamwork.
24:21So, yeah, if they wanted to be involved in sports,
24:24I would definitely encourage that.
24:26Andy Murray, good luck in the Olympics.
24:28Thanks for being with us. Thank you.
24:31Andy Murray getting ready to play in the doubles for the British team.
24:35Now, every Olympics draws the gaze of the entire world
24:39and managing these games also comes at a sensitive time for France.
24:43Its politics remain divided after a snap election
24:46denied the far right becoming the majority party in Parliament.
24:50I asked the French sports minister, Amélie Oudea-Castera,
24:54about her labour of love getting Paris ready for the world's athletes
24:59and sports that are meant to rise above politics.
25:03Madam Minister, welcome to the programme.
25:07So, look, it couldn't look more majestic, beautiful, unbelievable,
25:11but you've been preparing for ages.
25:13What is your feeling right now on the eve of the opening ceremonies?
25:17Well, it's a mix of stress, because we want everything to be perfect,
25:22excitement, because we know we are ready,
25:25and a will, an authentic will to really give happiness to the whole world
25:30through that opening ceremony and these Olympics
25:33and to give, you know, a sense of pride to the French people.
25:37It's interesting you say that at this time,
25:40because there's so much to be unhappy about
25:42and to be nervous about in the world.
25:45So you're right, these sports do...
25:47And we're hearing all the police fans and all the security.
25:50Security is always an issue.
25:52Can you assure the French people and the athletes and the spectators
25:57that this is 100% safe?
26:00We've put all effort to secure that.
26:04We've been anticipating all types of threats.
26:08We are monitoring them extremely closely with the greatest attention.
26:12We have also mobilised a very wide number of security forces,
26:18either on the public side with 45,000 security forces,
26:27almost 20,000 military forces.
26:31There will be for the opening ceremony 6,000 private security officers.
26:37We also rely on international cooperation, on a number of key expertise.
26:42We have put some security perimeters well in advance
26:46to secure that we control every move, all identities.
26:53So we really have aligned all the conditions
26:56to make it a very, very safe place.
26:58Does anything worry you in the lead-up?
27:00We've heard of some arrests, some concerns.
27:03Is that normal run of the mill for any of these kind of big events?
27:07Yeah, that's the normal run.
27:09I mean, it's good that we find difficulties,
27:12we've identified people that should not be there
27:15or present some risks, not very intense risks.
27:19But it's good that our measures prove effective.
27:25We are watching every single detail
27:30and trying to control all what we see.
27:33So I'm really confident.
27:36I want to say how honoured we are to welcome the world.
27:39We know it's a complex, fragmented and dangerous world.
27:43We know there are some possible attacks.
27:47We know there are some threats again.
27:51And we have done everything under the leadership
27:55of the Ministry of Interior Affairs and the Minister, Gérald Darmanin,
27:59to make sure that everything is controlled.
28:02And now for something more mundane or not, the water, the sand,
28:05which is the site of the opening ceremonies.
28:08There's wonderful pictures of you along with the mayor, Annie Hidalgo.
28:12Swimming, not too long ago, a couple of weeks ago.
28:16And you've paid a huge amount of money and effort to cleaning it up
28:22because it's hugely polluted.
28:24Are you absolutely sure that it's safe?
28:26No E. coli, no nothing right now?
28:29No, it will be absolutely safe.
28:32And we monitor every day, even twice a day,
28:36the quality of the indicators, the thresholds, their evolution,
28:40their resilience to changes in weather conditions.
28:44And I can say that we're going to be ready.
28:47We're going to be ready as soon as July 30 for the triathlon
28:52and then for the swimming in the sand, the swimming marathon.
28:56And we will also be ready for the Paralympics at the end of the summer.
29:01It's been, as you mentioned, a very large project
29:07with heavy funding from the state.
29:10Overall, the state, together with the local authorities,
29:14we've invested 1.2 billion euros in that ambition.
29:20But we are very, very proud to realise that, you know,
29:25we've completed 100% of our action plan.
29:28And it will be, even though many other cities who've hosted the Olympics
29:31have fabulous rivers running through them,
29:33it will be the first such Olympics, right,
29:35where the river is such a central part of the Games
29:40and of the opening ceremony.
29:42Yeah, and it's going to be beautiful.
29:44And what's more, it's going to be useful for the French people
29:47and for the tourists and visitors from all over the world
29:51because in 2025, we will authorise the swimming, the bathing, for everyone.
29:57So you will be able to enjoy, when you come to Paris next summer,
30:02a wonderful dive in the Seine yourself.
30:04Are you serious? I am. I'm going to hold you to that.
30:07I want to ask you also about some of the controversies.
30:10As you know very well, there is a young French athlete
30:14who took to Instagram.
30:16Her name is Suncam Basila.
30:19She's a French sprinter, and she has been barred from wearing the hijab
30:23in the opening ceremonies when the athletes come in.
30:27She wrote, you're selected for the Olympics, organised in your country,
30:30but you can't participate in the opening ceremony
30:33because you wear a headscarf.
30:35Now, obviously, the Olympics call for respecting all religions,
30:39and France has this laïcité rule.
30:42Are you trying to figure out a way that she can be included?
30:46And if so, what will that be?
30:48Yeah, and the issue is solved. It's solved?
30:50Actually, that athlete, Suncam Basila,
30:53she will be able to participate in the opening ceremony
30:57exactly the same way as a few weeks ago,
31:01through dialogue, explaining the rule,
31:04explaining why that rule exists.
31:07It's based on our French constitution.
31:09It has to be respected,
31:11because when you're an athlete representing the French team,
31:16you are assimilated to a sort of public agent,
31:20public civil servant.
31:23Based on this, you need to stick to very neutral rules,
31:27meaning that you're not allowed to wear religious or political signs.
31:33So we explained that very extensively to Suncam Basila,
31:36explaining why, where does it come from.
31:38It's not at all the will of a government.
31:40That's the law, and we need to obey by the law.
31:43And she understands perfectly that when you're an athlete
31:46representing your country, you need to be exemplary.
31:50So what we discussed with her
31:54is the fact that she can wear something,
31:59but not something that can be assimilated to a religious symbol.
32:04I see.
32:05Because it's a civil ceremony.
32:06Somehow.
32:07Yes.
32:08I mean, together with the LVMH,
32:11who is preparing all the ceremony clothes for the athletes,
32:17they have to find a way so that she feels good,
32:20but she respects the LVMH.
32:22So it's a win-win.
32:23That's a win-win, and we're happy.
32:25I always say when you're benevolent, when you're constructive,
32:28when you're pragmatic, you can have a solid respect of your rules,
32:33but while finding the right avenues...
32:36You can find a solution.
32:38Absolutely.
32:39And talking about standards and controversies,
32:42a convicted child rapist is playing on the Dutch beach volleyball team.
32:47And I'm just trying to figure out who makes the rules,
32:50who has the standards, because we have a Japanese athlete,
32:53a gymnast who's been sent home for drinking and smoking.
32:56There's a British equestrian who's been dropped by the British team
33:00for a four-year-old, we think, video of her hitting a horse, etc.
33:05So about this kind of situation...
33:09Well, the Dutch person...
33:11I mean, I've just been made aware of that.
33:14So it's not easy for me to comment right now.
33:18What I can tell you is that, of course, as a woman,
33:21I am shocked to imagine that someone that has raped a little girl...
33:27Or a child.
33:29..is part of the Olympics.
33:31But from what I understood, he spent time in jail,
33:36he made a number of excuses, treatments.
33:40So we need to check, we need to further understand the situation.
33:43Apologies.
33:44But I want to say apologies is made sound as well.
33:47But I think what is important to remind is that
33:51the decision to select an athlete is taken by the National Olympic Committee.
33:57So in that case, the Dutch National Olympic Committee.
34:03It's not at all the responsibility of the French state.
34:06This has been a very difficult year in politics for your country.
34:11President Macron made a dramatic political gamble
34:14to try to keep the extreme right, the far right, out of power.
34:19And to an extent, it worked.
34:22But we still don't know who's going to be the next prime minister.
34:25The president has a lot of political work to do, he says,
34:28after the Olympics are over.
34:30Can you talk a little bit about the tumultuous politics?
34:34And were you afraid that that might overshadow the Olympics,
34:38that they could have thrown a spanner in the works?
34:41I mean, all this happened just a few weeks before the opening ceremony.
34:45Well, what I can say... You are a minister.
34:47..is that, you know, I mean, politics, political life,
34:51you have ups and downs, difficulties.
34:54I think the French people have been very strong
34:57in sending a message that they do not want the far right,
35:01the extremes, to really command and drive the country.
35:06This was a message made clear by the French people.
35:09And I think at a time where we welcome the world,
35:13where we want to send a message of openness,
35:16of audacity, of peace, of concord,
35:20this is very important to remind that.
35:24What I want to say also is that, yes,
35:27it's been an intense week on the political side,
35:30but it never jeopardised the quality of the preparation,
35:34because we remained highly focused.
35:37I was not involved in the campaign personally,
35:41so I kept working with all the teams
35:44to really secure that, you know, every step was doing...
35:48..was done the way it had to be done.
35:51Now, I think it's an opportunity,
35:54both for the country to reunite, to take a deep breath,
35:58to enjoy sports, to be proud of their athletes,
36:02to be proud of themselves,
36:04to realise that France is a great country,
36:07capable to do great things, etc.
36:09And on the other side, I think it's also a useful moment
36:12for the political parties to keep working together
36:15to find the right combinations, the right solutions,
36:19so that we have a workable, you know, plan
36:22and secure that once the Olympics are over,
36:26we can go on and keep driving the necessary reforms.
36:30Finally, Céline Dion has been noticed in Paris.
36:34Is she going to perform at the opening ceremonies?
36:37I'm not going to answer to that question,
36:39because I want, you know, to keep the surprise.
36:42We've been holding those secrets for months.
36:46I'm not going to crack down now, just, you know, the day before.
36:50But she's not here just by chance.
36:53OK. Well, you nearly gave away the secret.
36:56Madam Minister, thank you so much indeed.
36:58Thanks to you. Thanks for being with us.
37:00Thank you very much.
37:02Anne, the minister is a former athlete,
37:04and when it comes to gender and sex in sport,
37:07the conversation can often be fraught.
37:09At this year's Games, trans athletes are subject
37:12to stricter rules and regulations than before.
37:15Though this may seem like a recent issue,
37:17it's actually a topic that goes back to the 1930s.
37:21In his new book, The Other Olympians,
37:23historian Michael Waters details the stories
37:26of trans athletes who competed back then,
37:29and he joins Hari Sreenivasan
37:31to speak about the challenges they faced.
37:34Christiane, thanks. Michael Waters, thanks so much for joining us.
37:37You've got a new book out, and in the Olympic spirit here,
37:40it is called The Other Olympians, Fascism, Queerness,
37:44and the Making of Modern Sports.
37:46And what's interesting to me about it,
37:48as a casual fan of the Olympics,
37:50is when you think of 1936,
37:52the storyline you usually think of is Jesse Owens.
37:55There it is in Berlin, being hosted by the Nazis.
37:59But you found a really fascinating alternate story
38:03that I'd never heard of.
38:05You talked about these two athletes, trans athletes,
38:09who were there at the time,
38:11and they publicly transitioned.
38:13Tell me a little bit about the athletes that you profiled.
38:16Yeah, so I wrote about Zdeněk Kovács,
38:19who is this Czech runner
38:21who won gold in this competition called the Women's World Games,
38:26which was like a rival to the Olympics in the 1930s.
38:29His main sport, so he was assigned female at birth,
38:32he played in women's sports before transitioning,
38:35and his main sport was the 800 meters,
38:37which was not available at the Olympics at the time
38:40because there were very few sports for women at the Olympics,
38:44especially in track and field in the 1930s.
38:47And so he wins gold at really the highest level of competition
38:50available to him in 1934,
38:52and he sets a new world record in the process.
38:55And he's kind of like,
38:57he becomes this sort of local sports celebrity in Czechoslovakia,
39:02and perhaps throughout Europe.
39:06And essentially what happens is after winning gold,
39:09he steps away from sports for a bit,
39:12and he sort of decides to wrestle with these questions
39:16he's always had about his own self-identity.
39:19And so after winning gold, he steps away from sports,
39:22and he starts consulting a doctor about the possibility of transitioning.
39:26And he has these consultations,
39:29and then he decides that going forward,
39:32he's going to be living as a man.
39:34In late November 1935, he announces to the Czech press that
39:38he's transitioning gender and living as a man
39:41and wants to play in men's sports in the future.
39:44And a few days later, in early December,
39:46that news gets picked up globally,
39:48and it just becomes this really big international news story
39:51for several weeks.
39:53And then eventually throughout the whole 1936 year
39:56when the Berlin Olympics happened,
39:58all talking about this athlete who transitioned gender.
40:01And so Kobek was the first, but a few months later,
40:04there was this other athlete who was a little bit less successful,
40:08but similarly was assigned female at birth, played in women's sports.
40:13His name was Mark Weston.
40:15He was a British shot putter.
40:17And in May 1936, so several months after Kobek transitioned,
40:21he too gave this interview in which he said that he was living as a man.
40:26And so, you know, together,
40:27they really created this global news story in 1936, you know,
40:31that summer right ahead of the Olympics about, you know,
40:35just like the meaning of transition and of these categories of male and
40:38female, you know, themselves,
40:40which I think you saw the press talking about in this really interesting
40:44nuanced way, really for the first time.
40:46What was that coverage like?
40:48I mean, you know,
40:49it's hard for us to imagine how the world was almost a hundred years ago,
40:54but how were people approaching the idea that someone who was born a woman
40:59who would want to be competing in men's sports?
41:03Yeah.
41:04So, I mean the, so 1935 and 1936, when this was happening, you know,
41:09this was an era before there was a concept of gender as this like
41:13psychological socialized identity distinct from biological sex.
41:17And so, you know, when these athletes were written about, it was,
41:20it was purely in terms of the body, but, you know,
41:22the mid 1930s are also kind of the end of this era of really visible
41:28queerness in a lot of cities in Europe, in the U S especially.
41:32And, you know, you had in Germany, which was, you know,
41:36right next door to Czechoslovakia,
41:37you had Magnus Hirschfeld who was this really prominent sexologist who
41:42offered medical care to trans and intersex people in the 1920s and 1930s.
41:49And, you know, he helped to bring forward these ideas that, you know,
41:54perhaps there is a lot more to understand about the body and about what we,
41:59what we call gender today and about transition themselves.
42:02And this is also an era where like, you know, every few months,
42:06there is a new discovery about the body and about sex and sexuality.
42:10And so I think the public was quite primed to see
42:16like, to like,
42:18accept the idea that there was more than they generally understood about how
42:22sort of like sex worked and how these categories of male and female worked.
42:26And what really struck me is that a lot of the coverage of Kobeck and Weston,
42:31these two athletes who transitioned gender is quite empathetic.
42:36And, you know, they definitely, they got the pronouns wrong.
42:39They use some words that, you know,
42:41we wouldn't use today to describe these athletes.
42:44And there was certainly like a fair bit of sensationalism of,
42:48of these athletes and of this idea of transition, but, you know,
42:51through it all,
42:52I think there's this real curiosity from the public and from journalists
42:55about, you know, like what it means to move between these categories.
42:59Tell us a little bit about another athlete that you write about Helen
43:02Stevens.
43:03Helen Stevens.
43:04She's kind of forgotten compared to Jesse Owens,
43:08but she was probably like the second most famous American athlete at the
43:12Berlin Olympics in 1936.
43:14So she is this track runner from Missouri.
43:18And she, you know, isn't this woman, you know,
43:22they didn't have that term then, but like,
43:24we can identify as a CIS woman today.
43:26And she sort of,
43:29because of a childhood accident had this like very deep voice.
43:33She also had just like big biceps.
43:36She was often sort of,
43:37sort of noticed for her perceived masculinity.
43:41And she basically in,
43:45in 1936 at the Berlin Olympics,
43:48she's one of the top U S athletes.
43:51She eventually wins a gold medal at the same day as,
43:54as Jesse Owens wins his gold.
43:56And there's all this scrutiny, you know,
44:00sort of in part because of these,
44:04of Quebec and Weston, these two athletes who transitioned gender,
44:06there's all this sort of extra scrutiny and this heightened scrutiny on women's
44:11sports and on athletes who are just like perceived to be masculine in some
44:16way. And Helen Stevens has always been,
44:18has always sort of dealt with this,
44:20but it really comes to a head at the Berlin Olympics.
44:23And there's this new story after she wins gold,
44:26there's this new story published about her and this Polish newspaper that
44:30essentially accuses her of being like a man in disguise.
44:34And it's not totally clear what happened,
44:36but at the very least you saw for the first time in the press,
44:40this idea of like examining people to determine whether or not they should be
44:45in women's sports.
44:46And really coming out of this moment of fear mongering about this really
44:50prominent American athlete.
44:52There's an interesting character you write about kind of the,
44:55it's sort of behind this interest in figuring out how to test athletes.
45:01His name is Wilhelm Noel. Tell us a little bit about him. Who is he?
45:06Who was he?
45:07Yeah. So,
45:08so Quebec transitioned like announced that he was transitioning gender at the
45:12end of 1935. And like I said, you know,
45:15it becomes global news story that is written about, you know,
45:19really with this sense of curiosity about the possibilities of transition.
45:25And so while the public is just kind of curious about like, okay,
45:28it's literally like,
45:29how is it possible to move between these categories?
45:31Like what are the medical advances that,
45:35that sort of allow this you do see the small group of sports officials who
45:39have a very different reaction.
45:41And the most prominent among them is Wilhelm Noel,
45:43who in January, 1936 writes this op-ed,
45:48essentially accusing Quebec of being a fraud and deceitful in some
45:53way.
45:54And Noel seemed to take issue with the fact that Quebec had been in women's
45:57sports at all. And Noel, just for some background context, you know,
46:01he was a quite influential sports doctor in 1936.
46:05He was the head of this group of sports doctors who advised, you know,
46:09the IOC, the track and field federation.
46:12This was a very early era of sports science.
46:15And so he,
46:16despite nature of having that position had a lot of cachet.
46:21He was also a registered Nazi at the time.
46:24And he was really an ardent believer. You know,
46:26he taught at a university and he wore the Brown shirt uniform to classes.
46:32And he, you know, like separately from Quebec,
46:34he had all of these writings about how he wanted to eliminate Jewish athletes,
46:38athletes of color from sports in general.
46:42So he just kind of has a tendency because of his belief in eugenics to push
46:47out athletes.
46:48And he saw Quebec and this possibility of transition as some kind of threat
46:53and you know, something that needs to be weeded out.
46:57Tell me, you know,
46:58for people who might not be paying attention to kind of the history of how
47:02these policies have evolved,
47:04what's happened in the world of international competition when it comes to
47:09identifying gender or trying to figure out if there's an advantage,
47:14because it seems that we, we've shifted away from, you know,
47:17kind of a physical exam into slightly more scientific measures.
47:21The original policies were like you said, they were just physical exams.
47:25They would strip test women athletes. Again,
47:28it's not really clear like what were they looking for,
47:31which kinds of bodies would be allowed, which wouldn't,
47:33that was never outlined in these early years, you know,
47:36eventually that ran into a lot of problems.
47:38And so as success in groups,
47:41sports officials began embracing a chromosome based test,
47:45which essentially would try to sort of delineate athletes by like
47:51measuring their testing, their chromosomes. The problem was, you know,
47:55there are a lot of like athletes who would probably identify as this women
47:59today who have like a multiplicity of chromosomes.
48:01They were just sort of quietly expelled from the Olympics in the like
48:06sixties and seventies and into the eighties.
48:09There was a lot of backlash to this.
48:10So the policy switched over to testing hormone levels.
48:15And today what we have is kind of a grab bag of different policies.
48:19So the IOC, the international Olympic committee, which, which
48:24makes a lot of these overarching policies,
48:26they've actually said that they no longer want to set the terms of
48:31eligibility for women athletes.
48:33And they released a statement in 2021 that actually talked about wanting to
48:37have more inclusion of trans intersex women in sports,
48:41but they left it up to the individual federation.
48:43So like the track and field federation, for example,
48:46to sort of govern their own group of sports separately.
48:50And what has happened is that in a lot of cases,
48:53these policies have become quite restrictive and have
48:58banned like nearly,
48:59in many cases banned nearly all trans women from competing in the Olympics
49:04also have set really hard limits on women who might fit on an intersex
49:09spectrum and even CIS women who have high testosterone levels,
49:13limitations on whether they can play and how they can play,
49:16but it really depends now based on sports. So the current policy
49:22is really different depending on what sport you look at, but that,
49:26that same concept of,
49:29we are going to regulate like which kind of women can compete.
49:33I think you can sort of draw a direct line between 1936 and today,
49:38even as the policies themselves have gotten very different and the things that
49:42are being tested has, has gotten very different.
49:44In an op-ed that you wrote for the New York times,
49:47you mentioned this summer at the Paris Olympics,
49:49sex testing policies will be in some ways,
49:51even more extreme than in years past. Why is that?
49:55Yeah. Well,
49:56I think that's in part because of the fact that these international
50:02federations,
50:03these sort of like sports organizations that I mentioned that govern
50:06something like track and field or swimming have actually gotten stricter on
50:13eligibility requirements. So if you just look at a track and field,
50:16for instance a few years ago at the Olympics,
50:19there was a path to inclusion for trans women athletes and track and field.
50:25It would involve like keeping your hormone levels like in a certain range.
50:30So it was a difficult,
50:31but there was a way for a trans woman could theoretically compete.
50:36Now the track and field federation has basically gotten rid of that entirely
50:39and all the band trans women.
50:42And so I think you see kind of a similar story in a lot of different sports,
50:45which is that these policies are getting stricter, even as the IOC,
50:50which is kind of like the top of this governing bureaucracy sports structure,
50:57even as the IOC is saying, we want more inclusion. You know,
51:01not a lot of the sports federations have taken them up on that.
51:04This has been such a topic for American political culture wars.
51:10One of the core concerns for people is this notion of fairness and in
51:16competitions, like say track and field,
51:18it's literally who gets across the line first and whether or not someone has an
51:24inherent advantage perhaps because of their biology.
51:29What's the problem? Is there a problem in that thinking?
51:33There is so much fixation on trans intersex women in sports,
51:37and we don't have that same kind of dialogue about many other kinds of like
51:41perceived advantage that are just sort of baked into how we think about sports.
51:46So if you think about something like basketball, you know,
51:48it certainly helps to be tall.
51:50We're not trying to regulate the heights of basketball players.
51:53Even when you think about these efforts to regulate testosterone levels in
51:58women, you know, we don't do the same thing in men's sports.
52:01And if the idea is that, you know,
52:04testosterone levels confer some kind of unfair athletic behavior,
52:07advantage, you know,
52:08men have the same diversity of testosterone levels as women.
52:11So why wouldn't we also limit like men's testosterone levels?
52:15It doesn't really make sense to go down that path.
52:17That's not even to mention, you know,
52:19someone like Michael Phelps who's born with this really specific genetic
52:24condition that gives him like a long wingspan that also happens to be
52:30perfect for swimming, you know,
52:32or some of these more like invisible types of advantage, like class,
52:35you know, early on in your sports career, you know,
52:38whether you can pay for trainers or to go to some kind of summer camp and
52:43work your way up in sports can really influence, you know,
52:46whether you can make it to this elite level.
52:48And all of this is just to say that, like,
52:51I think a great thing about the Olympics is it brings together a lot of
52:55different people from all over the world,
52:57A great thing about the Olympics is it brings together a lot of different
53:01people from a lot of different backgrounds and experiences and people who
53:06sort of exist on the spectrum of bodies and experience that we all do.
53:10And there's some things that we can't regulate and we accept that we can't
53:15regulate. And I think to me,
53:16it is quite telling to see the fixation on trans women in sports and
53:22intersex women in sports specifically,
53:24and also CIS women who have high testosterone levels in a way that we don't
53:28fixate on any of these other things throughout the history.
53:33It strikes me that we've been having the same conversation kind of over and
53:38over again,
53:39and often erased from all of this is the athletes themselves and just,
53:44you know, their humanity.
53:45And then also just like the immense skill it takes to get to the point where
53:49you could maybe go to the Olympics. You know, these are,
53:51these are all athletes of like unbelievable skill who've put in years and
53:56years of their lives into this sport. And so
54:00to me,
54:01it's just kind of unthinkable that we would then say, actually,
54:04you don't meet this sort of subjective ever-changing definition of women.
54:08And so therefore you can't compete. Yeah, that's,
54:12I guess that's sort of what I've gleaned from looking at the history.
54:15The book is called The Other Olympians, Fascism,
54:18Queerness, and the Making of Modern Sports. Author Michael Waters.
54:22Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me.
54:25And finally tonight, as we said earlier,
54:27these Olympics mark a historic homecoming for Paris.
54:30The first time it's hosted the summer games was a hundred years ago,
54:34back in 1924,
54:36an Olympics that has been embedded in cinematic history ever since,
54:40because the American swimmer back then,
54:42Johnny Weissmuller shot to stardom after winning three gold medals here in
54:47Paris. And then he went on to star in 12 Tarzan movies.
54:52I'm Jane Parker. Understand? Jane. Jane.
54:58Jane. Jane. Jane.
55:00Jane. You? Jane. Jane.
55:08But perhaps most famously,
55:09the story of the British runners headed for glory at Paris 1924 was the
55:14was the inspiration for the legendary film Chariots of Fire.
55:18So who knows, perhaps the cinema heroes of tomorrow
55:22will be born over the next few weeks here.
55:25That's it for our programme tonight.
55:27If you want to find out what's coming up on the show every night,
55:30sign up for our newsletter at pbs.org.
55:34Thanks for watching and goodbye from Paris.
55:37And of course we want to leave you now with a little Chariots of Fire.
55:44.