Probably the most important thing we miss out on || Acharya Prashant, with PETA CEO (2023)

Acharya Prashant

‍♂️ Want to meet Acharya Prashant? Be a part of the Live Sessions: https://acharyaprashant.org/hi/enquir...   Want to read Acharya Prashant's Books? Get Free Delivery: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/books?...   ~~~~~  Video Information:   Context:  Acharya Prashant received the Most Influential Vegan award from PETA. Here he is in conversation with PETA CEO Ingrid Newkirk.  PETA USA:    / @peta   PETA India:    / @officialpeta.  .  What is the solution to climate change? How spirituality can stop the climate change? Climate change have no scientific solution How veganism is related to compassion? Why veganism is necessary for today's generation? What is the relation between veganism and climate change? How could veganism change the world?  What is the relation between Vedanta and veganism? Why should one respect all forms of consciousness? How to go beyond ones' physical nature?  Music Credits: Milind Date  ~~~~~

Transcript

00:00What's the big deal about veganism?

00:08Why veganism?

00:09Why should we even be concerned about veganism?

00:13And Acharya Prashant, if you could share your thoughts, and then Ingrid, if you could share

00:18your thoughts, and then we can just let the conversation flow.

00:22Hello, Ingrid, and hi, Darius, and yes, glad to be in this conversation.

00:31Why veganism?

00:32You see, veganism is very fundamentally related to the very definition of being a human being.

00:46I'm going to the extent of saying that we have animals, we have so many species of all

00:54kinds of beings, and then there are the Homo sapiens sapiens.

01:02So veganism is in one sense the qualifier.

01:09That's what makes human beings into a species that is fundamentally different from others.

01:18Now how is that?

01:21You see, when you're an animal, or any other life form, a tree or something, or an insect,

01:31your entire constitution, your life is dictated by your biological programming.

01:40So you are configured and constrained to eat as per your biological design, to decide,

01:54choose, move, eat, sleep, mate, just as you have been configured by evolution, by biology,

02:06by your body.

02:09How are human beings different?

02:10Human beings are fundamentally different because they are to live not by their body, but by

02:18their consciousness.

02:22So let's then look at the definition of an animal.

02:24An animal is one who lives by the body.

02:30And a human being is one who lives by consciousness.

02:36And you are a human being and if you respect consciousness much more than the body, which

02:46is material.

02:49So human beings are defined by the respect that they hold towards consciousness compared

02:57to the body.

03:00So we are not obliged to do something just because we can biologically do it.

03:05So for example, a lot of people say that because we can digest meat and because we have certain

03:11teeth that are supposed to be useful in cutting meat, therefore that proves that we can be

03:22meat eaters.

03:24No, our life, our choices are to be determined by our consciousness, we respect consciousness.

03:34And if we respect consciousness, we cannot kill it anywhere it exists.

03:41We cannot hurt it, harm it, we have to rather nurture it, we have to love it.

03:48And that's what veganism is about.

03:50Wherever there is consciousness, respect it.

03:54Do not exploit it.

03:58There is consciousness in the bird, in the fish, in the animal, in the tree.

04:05Similarly, in the human beings, respect that consciousness when you are slaughtering an

04:10animal for food or medicine or leather or whatever or fun, or just even exploiting it

04:19or hurting it, then you are valuing body over consciousness.

04:27And if you value body more than consciousness, then you are not a human being at all.

04:33Therefore, veganism to me is very central to the very definition of a human being.

04:39I'll go so far as to say if you're not a vegan, you don't qualify to be called a human being.

04:46And that's not a dogma.

04:48I'm coming from a very logical, well thought out position.

04:54So that's what veganism is to me, essential humanity.

05:01I agree with so much of what you've said.

05:04And I wanted to also thank you for all the work that your foundation has done.

05:10Because one of the things about veganism to me is that it's against all violence.

05:18It's against all exploitation.

05:21It's against all harming and prejudice and all these bad things that human beings seem

05:28to fall into.

05:30And so you have done wonderful things that have affected many different species, including

05:38human women.

05:39So thank you for all that.

05:42I do believe there is a principle that should be followed.

05:49And that is that we don't want to be discriminating and exploiting and harming and hurting anyone.

06:00It doesn't really matter what colour they are, what age they are, what gender they are,

06:05what species they are.

06:07If they're a living being, then we can either bully them, hurt them, kill them, or respect

06:15them and be considerate of them.

06:19And certainly we can't eat them, which is a very odd thing that we have decided over

06:26time to do, to take a breathing, thinking, feeling person and end their life, cut them

06:36into bits, let the blood drain out, and then stick them in our mouths.

06:41It's just incredible.

06:42Wonderful.

06:43And we shouldn't steal from them either and wear the skin they were born in.

06:48We shouldn't use them as if they are tools in laboratories to pour chemicals down their

06:54throats.

06:55And we certainly shouldn't take them away from their natural lives and chain them up

07:00and use them in circuses and temples and who knows what, just because we feel like it.

07:06That is supremacism.

07:07And I think you and I, all of us who are vegans, are against supremacism.

07:13Wonderful.

07:14Very well said.

07:16And there's a very interesting word you used, person.

07:21What constitutes a person is something that we must take to the population in general.

07:27What is the definition of a person?

07:30Because in general, we define a person as a human being.

07:37If you are a human male, a human female, you qualify to be called a person.

07:42But if I call a parrot a person, that would sound weird to a few, cute to a few others,

07:50but normal to very few.

07:54So a person, if you could see that a person is defined not by his or her body or the species,

08:08but by the mere presence of consciousness.

08:13Consciousness, the moment it becomes the qualifying criteria, our decisions immediately change.

08:21But for that, first of all, we need to have a certain love and respect for consciousness.

08:30And that's the reason, this little foundation here, obviously, Peeta has done great, remarkable

08:38path-breaking work, and it's several decades old, and I truly, deeply appreciate what Peeta

08:45has been doing since a long time now, worldwide, also in India.

08:52Our foundation is comparatively a nascent one.

08:56And it's the consciousness route that we are taking.

09:00So that's the reason why when we work for animals, we find we are working for all beings

09:12that exist, because they all are conscious.

09:15And we find that if we really have to work for animals, then honesty demands that we

09:20work for all exploited sections that exist on the planet, be it those who are racially

09:29oppressed, or women, or people who are misled in whichever way, and that brings a kind of

09:40integrity to our work, a central axis.

09:45If you are conscious, then you deserve my respect, because my own welfare lies in me

09:54being able to respect consciousness.

09:58Why do I suffer?

09:59Why does any human being suffer?

10:01Because we forget that we are just not the body.

10:05The body has its own games, its own agendas.

10:09I have my purposes that are separate from the purposes of the body.

10:14For example, the body might want to sleep, I might not necessarily agree, the body might

10:21want to eat or jump around, or the body in a certain stage of life might demand procreation.

10:28And I do not extend my consent to all that, I am not the body, so I'm not obliged to always

10:35conquer with the body.

10:37The moment I see I am consciousness, something very magical happens, wherever consciousness

10:45is seen, it becomes an expression of who I am.

10:51How can I kill myself then?

10:53I look at the rabbit, and in the rabbit's eyes, there is nothing different from what

10:59is there in my eyes.

11:01Alright, the shine might be different, the form might be different, but the essential

11:06characteristic is the same.

11:07I do not want to die.

11:09The consciousness here says, well, there is more to explore, more to achieve, probably

11:14there is something called liberation that is still left.

11:18So there is a certain hunger in my eyes, I see a certain hunger in the rabbit's eyes

11:22as well.

11:23Well, the rabbit might not be demanding liberation, it might just be asking for a carrot.

11:28But there is that desire there.

11:31So in killing the rabbit, I am killing a part of myself, something very similar to myself.

11:35I could even say I am killing myself when I kill anybody.

11:38If I hurt someone, I am hurting myself.

11:43That's the route and the position that we are taking.

11:47And to our surprise, it's been cutting eyes.

11:50In a short period of time, there have been people, really tough nuts, and chronic meat

11:59eaters for whatever reasons, and they have just been able to come around and do things.

12:09But equally, the state of treatment towards animals in India has been deteriorating.

12:20India has traditionally been home to the largest number of vegetarians in the world.

12:26But now only around 30%, less than 30% of the population is vegetarian.

12:31So violence towards animals is on the rise.

12:37And insensitivity is rife, especially among the younger people.

12:45You're trying to fight it out, let's see.

12:48I think part of it though, isn't it, is that there is this desire among many young people

12:54to emulate what they believe is the Western world, whether it's blue jeans or it's music

13:01or movies, and that can have a very bad influence.

13:06And so I remember going to a wedding in Maryland, in the US, and there was an Indian couple,

13:14maybe about 40 years old there, and we sat at the same table, and we hadn't gone to the

13:20buffet yet.

13:22And I said, Oh, are you vegetarian?

13:25And both of them said, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not vegetarian.

13:29And you think, I know you are, I said, Well, we are, meaning my partner and I, we're vegetarian,

13:36I thought you might be and he said, Well, we usually are.

13:40And I thought you were trying to adjust thinking that I might find something wrong with you

13:47being vegetarian.

13:49That's a very sad state of affairs.

13:52And what's interesting to me is that the West is moving around the circle and coming back

14:00to the position that we shouldn't eat animals, and that we shouldn't steal from animals,

14:05you know, the milk through the mother cow makes for her baby, her beloved baby.

14:12And when you talk about consciousness, I always think of the look in those eyes of that mother

14:20who is watching her baby being taken away.

14:24So some human animal can steal the milk and put it as ghee or butter or cheese or whatever

14:31it is.

14:33In the West, there is a growing awareness and maybe some of this is for animals out

14:40of concern.

14:41And some of it is because of all the devastating information we have been bombarded with about

14:48the ill effects of animal milk, eggs, meat on human health.

14:55So a selfish reason comes in there.

14:57And also because people know they should be caring about the environment, even if they

15:04don't really care, they know they should care.

15:07And they are hearing that animal-based agriculture worldwide is taking our water resources, taking

15:14our land resources, cutting down the rainforest.

15:18So the consciousness is really in all these different ways, isn't it, of intellectual,

15:25of thought, and of awareness and of information.

15:29On the animal side, I think we can see they're all conscious, you can just look into those

15:35eyes and see fear in the slaughterhouse, terrible fear, wide eyes, petrified.

15:42But most of the time, they don't get choices.

15:45The rabbit can't have the carrot, the mother cow can't have her baby, because they're dominated

15:53by the human species that doesn't think beyond what it wants itself.

15:58I think your work in saying, look at yourself, you are more than your interests, your pleasures.

16:07You are a thoughtful, conscious being, act like one is very, very important.

16:15And also, what is happening is, in the Indian context, especially, cultural reasons succeeded

16:25in keeping a vast majority of Indians vegetarian, if not vegan, since centuries, compared to

16:35other parts of the world, cruelty towards animals or other life forms in India was lesser.

16:49To what extent, we might speculate, but certainly, India was kinder towards life forms still

16:58recently.

16:59The only problem is, the reasons were just cultural.

17:04And culture is man-made, so culture can change, culture is time-bound, culture changes.

17:10As you pointed out, the Indian youth, the Asian youth, in fact, youth all over the world,

17:18they look at the West as their idol.

17:26And they want to emulate the Western culture, because the image of the West is that of a

17:32successful and wealthy and powerful man, and who does not want to go after success and

17:38wealth and power.

17:40So that's what Indians have also been doing, they look at the West and say, wow, that's

17:44where you have real power and money.

17:47So they emulate the culture also, and that's where the cultural reasons meet their limits.

17:54If you are being vegan or vegetarian, just because that's what goes in your family, in

18:01your tradition, or in your religion, then that won't take you very far.

18:07Cultures will change, some other culture will come and eclipse your current culture.

18:13And higher than the cultural reason is the biological reason, because this comes from

18:20within the organism.

18:23This does not come from the family, from tradition, from someone else, from the society.

18:28So for example, when I look at a stray dog, and there is a feeling of empathy that arises,

18:37without even knowing why I am empathetic, I want to do something for the dog, it's cold

18:42these days, so we want to take care of a few puppies that live close to our place,

18:52and we want to take care of them.

18:53We do not necessarily know the origins of that feeling, but still we want to do something,

18:59and that I take as higher than the cultural reason, because the feeling is mine, to a

19:05greater extent.

19:06The culture is not really mine, the culture is a borrowed thing, or an inherited thing,

19:10but the feeling arises from within me.

19:13And so the feeling works in a far better way, and in a deeper way than the culture.

19:21India has been losing out due to the erosion of its culture.

19:27Feelings will help, but what really works is understanding, and that is the spiritual

19:34reason.

19:35So cultural, emotional, and then spiritual.

19:38When one really really knows what it means to live, who one is, and what his relationship

19:48with the world is, then it becomes impossible to really hate someone, or be insensitive

19:57to someone, and then it's also not just about eating animals, or hurting animals.

20:08One starts living from a different center, and there is a total change in personality,

20:16one you know, it's a thing that will probably make you smile.

20:20One becomes vegan even without knowing it.

20:24We witness that daily, and I'm enjoying sharing it with you.

20:28There are so many people in our vicinity, in the field of our work, they have become

20:35vegan.

20:36They don't even know that they are vegans.

20:41And that I take as a very innocent and beautiful example of real veganism.

20:48Veganism arising from the heart, veganism not as a concept borrowed from somewhere,

20:54but as a living thing that has just sprouted from your very center.

20:59You know, you have come to realize what the curd is made of, and where it comes from.

21:05You have just seen those things, and now you just can't do it.

21:12It's impossible.

21:13Even if you want to, you can't do it.

21:16I have seen instances, we had a long period of lockdown here at the time of COVID-19,

21:262020, a few months in 2021 as well.

21:33So there were patches in which even medicines were not available.

21:41So we had a couple of cases in the foundation.

21:44The B12 levels went down, and that happens once every few months, it happens that you

21:54get yourself checked and find that B12 is borderline.

21:57So we just take organic supplements, and they are very easily available and you take the

22:02supplement for a month and you are okay.

22:04Because of the lockdown, even the supplements are not available.

22:10It didn't even occur to people to consume dairy or anything because supplements are

22:17not available.

22:18They didn't declare it, but that's what they were de facto saying, we would rather die

22:24than hurt someone.

22:28They didn't make it dramatic and announce it in so many words.

22:33It remained subtle.

22:34But if you look at it, that's what they were practically saying.

22:39Let the B12 levels dip if they have to, we would prefer to go but we just cannot bear

22:48hurting someone anymore.

22:50That's the magic of spiritual veganism.

22:53And I think the world will have to come around to that you talked of environmental influences,

23:00you talked of climate change.

23:02All these things to me, they go together.

23:07Climate action, protection of species going extinct, antinatalism, minimalism, veganism.

23:20These go together.

23:22And if the planet is to be saved, there is no option except the bundle of these five

23:29and at the center of these five, to me lies spirituality and that's the route we are taking.

23:44Success has been mixed.

23:47It's just that the reach has to greatly increase.

23:52We have been pretty successful in the territory we have been able to cover.

23:58The problem is that we have not been able to cover a huge territory.

24:03First of all, we are limited to India.

24:05Secondly, even in India, because we are relatively nascent.

24:09So our reach is still limited compared to the work that needs to be done.

24:14Though we have, I think we are per month we are reaching out to no less than 40 to 50

24:22million people, but much more needs to be done.

24:26Otherwise the very existence of the planet, I do not see how far we are going.

24:31I think everything we do is vital and you never know what's going to work because everybody

24:40is affected in a different way.

24:42Some people care about one thing.

24:44Some people don't care about that, but they care about something else.

24:48So our approach is a scattershot approach.

24:52We'll try humor, we'll try seriousness, we'll try shock.

24:56And by shock, I mean we show reality.

24:59It's not that we invent this as we show the photographs and the videos of what actually

25:05happens and that is a shock.

25:08I think one of the US presidents once said, you know, people are attacking me for what

25:16I say.

25:17He says, all I do is I tell the truth.

25:20And that is people are so shocked by it that they attack me.

25:25But I think we have to be vigorous.

25:28We have to never be timid, never hold back, and never think that changing ourselves is

25:36enough.

25:37And I think that's what the foundation is so good at because you say it's not about

25:42me, it's not about my family, it's about everybody.

25:50Most of us, and I speak for myself, no matter how vegan we are, we've done so many things

25:57from the time we were born that hurt animals and hurt others that we can never make up

26:03for it.

26:04I can think back to many things that I'm ashamed of now and had no idea at the time.

26:11When I was in India, I always said to my mother, I want to ride the Tonga.

26:17I never wanted to take my bicycle.

26:20I wanted to have the horse because I loved horses and didn't realize how I was putting

26:27that poor animal through this strain for my amusement.

26:31I think we all have this baggage.

26:34And so it's not enough for us to stop eating and wearing and using animals.

26:40We have an obligation to undo some of the bad that we've done and to go out and share

26:48what we have learned with other people.

26:51There's a saying about, you know, who opens your eyes?

26:57And I think our obligation is to open as many hearts and minds and eyes as we possibly can.

27:04So we create this enormous force and people should not be hesitant about that.

27:10Why are people scared to talk to other people about being vegan?

27:16What is that about?

27:17You see, it's a question of what one values.

27:24I've thought over it a little, tried to examine it.

27:29What is it that I value?

27:32Do I value the appreciation of the other, the approval of the other, the things that

27:39flow to me if I just toe the line of the other?

27:47Or do I value love?

27:49Do I value compassion?

27:52Because obviously there are benefits that come from not speaking up, not coming out.

27:59I might be a vegan, but I keep that to myself and I allow myself a moral green card.

28:05I have done well.

28:06I am a vegan.

28:07I am not hurting anybody.

28:08What do I do if my neighbors are all very violent people?

28:10I have not caused that.

28:12I can do all that.

28:15All that stops when I say that if I know of it, that alone is sufficient to make it my

28:28responsibility.

28:31Also it is my responsibility to know more and more.

28:37It's my responsibility to know more and more of what's going on outside and inside.

28:44And once I know of something, if I still don't act, if I don't own up things, then I am a

28:51big hypocrite.

28:53So that sense, that responsibility, not responsibility, that love has to be awakened.

29:02And if that love is not awakened, I see, I just do not see our own species surviving.

29:13It's possible that other species somehow manage to survive, at least a few of them, but this

29:17one won't.

29:20Because we have just gone bonkers.

29:24The way we are consuming, we just cannot afford the level of consumption that we have along

29:35with the levels of populations that we have.

29:39If I talk of India, we recently became the most populous country in the world.

29:48And these 140 crore or so people want to have the same level of per capita consumption

29:58as a German or an American.

30:02Now that's a very violent kind of multiplication.

30:09The quantity of Indians multiplied by the per capita consumption of Americans.

30:16There is no way even a dozen earths can sustain that.

30:24And all of that is linked to veganism.

30:28It would be great if we could have a basic research, seeing the average number of children

30:38that vegans have, the average consumption levels of vegans, for example, in terms of

30:45fuel consumption, electricity consumption, steel consumption, garment consumption, water

30:51consumption.

30:54And see that once you are vegan, chances are that you are more pro-life, pro-life in general,

31:04and you're not just being kind towards animals.

31:07It's not just about your attitude and behavior and relationship with animals.

31:12You just become more human and you become more survivable, more sustainable.

31:24I could go on and say, we could talk of terrorism, we could talk of sectarianism, totalitarianism,

31:36all kinds of bad things and isms that are plaguing us today.

31:42And figure out a relationship, how the solution has a synonym called veganism.

31:53If I say veganism is the solution to terrorism, that will sound absurd, obviously.

31:58But whatsoever is the solution to terrorism, veganism is its synonym.

32:06These have to go together, if you are with the planet, if you are with everybody who

32:11is on this planet, if you are with basic sensibility, with consciousness, you have to be a vegan.

32:21And you cannot be a vegan and say, I have four kids.

32:25Every new kid that takes birth today is definitely going to cause great loss to a large number

32:36of species.

32:37The earth just cannot afford more people.

32:40So veganism has to go hand in hand with antinatalism.

32:46You cannot be a vegan couple and say we want to have lots of kids, that's like indirectly

32:53killing so many animals.

32:58And several other choices as well.

33:00You cannot be a vegan, for example, and be full of hatred towards human beings.

33:06Because sooner than later, if you are hateful, that hatred will spill over to animals and

33:14birds and fish as well.

33:16It would already be there and just that you don't know.

33:20I consume a lot of steel, for example, I want a mansion for myself.

33:25And we all know where steel comes from.

33:29We all know the relationship of steel with flowing water bodies.

33:35You cannot be a vegan and still be a huge fan of palaces and mansions and brick and

33:42mortar and say I want the biggest house possible on this planet.

33:48That's not veganism.

33:49So veganism in that sense, probably the time has come to give it a broader definition,

33:56a broader definition with a more clearly defined center.

34:02And that might just help more people to relate with it and understand what's going on.

34:08Otherwise, still, at least that's the scene in India.

34:12People think of veganism as something to do with food.

34:17If you don't eat something, you are vegan.

34:23Vegans are those who exclude certain food items from their diet.

34:26Now that's such a restrictive definition of veganism, even as you would say diet in the

34:34wool vegans, they would talk of veganism as diet and clothes.

34:43And maybe attitude towards animals, okay, I find a stray dog limping, I give it some

34:47medical care.

34:48So I'm a vegan.

34:50Again, that to me, that's, that's a bit narrow, I'm sure you two have been thinking about

34:56it and would throw some light on it.

34:59But to me, that's very restrictive.

35:01And also that limits its appeal.

35:05And also that's what makes people less empowered.

35:13You talked of hesitation that people feel in coming out, the vigor that they lack.

35:18Actually, this is why, this is why, if I can see that my friend over here, if he's

35:23not vegan, he cannot be a proper human being, then I'll be impelled to do something about

35:31it if I have any kind of relationship with him.

35:34But if I say, you know, he's already a nice man, just that he eats meat, just that he

35:42loves his coffee, milk coffee, but otherwise, he's a great man.

35:49I don't know how I'll be incentivized to again and again question him, poke him, probe him.

35:57I will feel no incentive.

36:00I need to be told that if he is not vegan, there is something very essential missing

36:07in his humanness, something very essential.

36:10And if it's essential, then he's not even human.

36:13If the very essence is missing, how are you even human then?

36:17Now, that's what will really rankle me up and push me towards constructive or disruptive,

36:26whatever kind of action.

36:27And a lot of times even disruptive action is needed.

36:31The videos that PETA makes, we have made good use of them.

36:36And watching the pics, sending the videos over to people who say that, well, you know,

36:45yes, cruelty is there, but cruelty is everywhere and there is limited cruelty when some of

36:52the videos from PETA, when we have been doing it since years now, in fact.

36:59In fact, I came across some of the activism that you have personally undertaken and those

37:06pics and yes, yes, as you said, they are disruptive and people need to be shocked and that's what

37:15makes them think otherwise we are just too well adjusted in our existing ways.

37:23We feel all is okay.

37:25That misplaced confidence is killing the animals and also our species.

37:31But what you said so many things that I would riff off because I can't help but agree with

37:37them.

37:38And I think most interesting to me is that while India is perhaps departing from this

37:46wonderful concept of Ahimsa, I mean, there can be nothing better.

37:52A true vegan, vegan means Ahimsa in its proper meaning, because as you say, it's not just

38:00about this dog or this food or this jacket or it's about an understanding of nonviolence.

38:10It's an understanding of respect.

38:12It's an understanding of consideration.

38:14It's about love, if you will.

38:17I mean, you don't have to love, but you have to be considerate and respectful.

38:22Recently, when we were talking about people being afraid to say something when they really

38:29must, they really must.

38:31Everything depends on people speaking out and you never know what's going to stick and

38:37what isn't going to stick.

38:39What you know is if you say nothing, nothing is going to stick.

38:44So recently I was in Mumbai just for a little while and I did a demonstration by taking

38:50a public shower.

38:51It was all very modest.

38:53That was just the illusion that it was a public shower.

38:58And people criticized me on Twitter and they said, you know, why is she doing this?

39:05Why can't they just threw rocks at me?

39:08And I thought it doesn't matter because if one person thought about it and took in that

39:16message that the whole world is in trouble because just a little meat meal is the equivalent

39:26amount of water as showering for a whole week.

39:30It's that much facing drought.

39:34India is facing more drought than almost anybody except Africa.

39:40You know, it is a critical thing.

39:41They said, why doesn't she do this in Europe?

39:44Why doesn't she do this in the United States?

39:46How dare she do this in India?

39:48And I thought, well, India needs to hear this lesson.

39:52I also do it in the US.

39:54I also do it in Europe.

39:56The world needs to hear this lesson.

39:59And Europe and the US are using more water than anybody in India.

40:05But India will bear the consequences.

40:09So we all need to do as much as we can and share our information with each other.

40:16So we can save ourselves collectively, look after each other as brothers and sisters collectively

40:24and break down these barriers of nationalism, genderism, all these isms that are the wrong

40:30isms that are separating us from each other.

40:35And instead of, when you hear a new idea, putting up a barrier and responding with hate

40:44and venom, we need to try to break that down and say, I'm just talking to you about something

40:52I heard, a fact I know.

40:55I didn't always know this.

40:56I'm grateful that someone showed me these things, and I am sharing them with you.

41:03So together, independently, if you like, we can change the world into being a kinder place.

41:12As someone once said, a famous person whose name I can never get right, said there are

41:18three things in life that are important.

41:21The first is to be kind, the second is to be kind, and the third is to be kind.

41:27And if you are kind, that's really all you ever need to do to get through life as a decent

41:34person.

41:35I honestly believe that.

41:36Perhaps you do too.

41:37I'm first of all, not just glad, but actually grateful that you did that in India, in Bombay.

41:48India needs disruptive activism of the kind you espouse.

41:57And I really wish that you and Peter do much more of that, irrespective of the criticism

42:04or even hate that comes your way.

42:07I'm sure all of us are strong enough to take that for the sake of several little beings

42:16and big beings and human beings.

42:20So I'm sure we'll happily take that.

42:24And yes, things are going down in India, hate and intolerance and dogmatism of all kinds.

42:36And I'm sure you know about all of that.

42:40So all that is going hand in hand.

42:44Why are you telling this to us?

42:46Go and tell this to the Europeans and the Americans, or why are you telling this to

42:50the Hindus?

42:51Go and tell the same thing to the Muslims.

42:53So why are you saying these things on our festivals?

42:57Go and tell this to the other community on their festival.

43:00So these things are happening.

43:03And all that is essentially, even more tragic, Ingrid, because one of the greatest Indic

43:12religions is veganism.

43:17You know, another name for Jainism is veganism.

43:24And that's not me saying that.

43:26You visit a Jain scholar and he would very gladly say that the Jain philosophy and the

43:35Jain code of conduct is just so close to veganism.

43:42And Jainism, it is so old that just as a thought, as a stream of thought, it is believed to

43:50be older than even Hinduism.

43:54And Hinduism in itself is a very, very old religion.

44:00So India is that kind of land where spirituality meant Ahimsa, wisdom meant nonviolence.

44:12There is no name that can be used to sum up all spirituality better than the name Ahimsa.

44:25And all kinds of unfortunate things are now happening in India.

44:32Chicken consumption is, India is the fastest growing market for chicken consumption now.

44:43And hearts should bleed on hearing this kind of a statistic when there are many countries

44:53where actually chicken consumption or pork or meat, that's going down.

45:00India of all places is where it is rising.

45:03So that's extremely unfortunate.

45:05And yes, it's inevitable that in the coming years, PETA will have to focus more and more

45:11energy on India, because this is where action is needed more and more.

45:20You very rightly put that, the West is coming full circle now, 360 degree, they are coming

45:29to realize that plant-based diets are superior when it comes to health, that vegan lifestyle

45:39is far better when it comes to mental health, they are seeing all those things.

45:44But India is going in some other direction.

45:47So a lot of things need to be done here.

45:50Now this was the tragic part of the thing.

45:54The encouraging part of the thing is, India already has a fertile soil when it comes to

46:01non-violence.

46:04Even the most violent person here, at least conceptually knows that he's doing a wrong

46:11thing and that he's a sinner.

46:14Even if you kill an ant, you have done something you shouldn't have done, that Indians instinctively

46:21know, it's in the air, it's in the soil, we know that.

46:26Just that we know that as a concept, we know that as a thing of culture, we don't understand

46:34where it is coming from.

46:37So when I said that five things go together, and I don't know four or five, antinatalism,

46:44animalism, veganism, this, this, this, this, this, you know, another thing that can be

46:49very importantly added to this is revival of true religiosity.

46:58Now I don't know how that would sound to you.

47:01But that should not sound very weird when you consider that I said that Jainism is de

47:08facto veganism and the Ahimsa core of Jainism is something it shares with Hinduism and Buddhism.

47:22So if the true essence of religiosity can be invoked, that would go a long distance

47:34towards making veganism easier.

47:38And when I say religion, I obviously do not mean the organized kind of religion in which

47:44the church, the temples, the priests, they become dominant and codes of conduct are enforced.

47:53I hope I'm not invoking the Taliban in your mind.

47:56I'm not talking of that kind of religiosity.

48:00I'm talking of, what should I say, essential spirituality.

48:05Yes, the search for one's own existence, one's own identity, who am I, why do I exist, those

48:11kinds of questions, more philosophical than ritualistic, more inquiry based than dogmatic.

48:23So if the moment that comes, especially in India, if people can see what the essence

48:29of religion is, for example, what Vedanta says, now Advaita Vedanta is the crown jewel

48:38among all Indian philosophies and Advaita is a word that I repeatedly tell my readers

48:45and listeners, Advaita is a word that can be very, very correctly translated as Ahimsa.

48:53Non-duality and non-violence are much the same thing.

48:59But only if we could have the right definition of duality and violence.

49:05As long as we just go by social culture and popular definitions, violence is when you

49:12hurt the other.

49:14The moment it comes to you, just as an idea, that violence is when you do not see the

49:23you and the other have a shared consciousness.

49:27Violence is when you create an otherness with the other, when you make the other as an entity

49:33totally separate from you, that's when violence starts.

49:37And that when those things start happening, veganism just blooms like a wildflower, unplanted.

49:47Nobody planted it, nobody nurtured it, nobody seeded it, nobody put the fertilizers or anything.

49:55It just happens, it just happens and humbly I would like to say we have seen modest success.

50:08The proportion of people who are associated with us turning vegan is very high.

50:17We need more and more people to whom the message can reach.

50:22But once the message reaches, the probability that the person will turn vegan is unimaginably

50:32high.

50:33I won't say 80% or 100% but very high.

50:37I won't be surprised if it's close to 20-25%.

50:42But turning a vegan in India is made difficult by the doodh dahi culture, especially in North India.

50:54So if we find that out of every five people who get to be associated with us for a significant

51:04period, at least one is turning vegan, I feel encouraged and I just want to just push the

51:11accelerator, go for vigorous action as you said, and make the message reach as many people

51:19as possible.

51:20We don't have time, we just don't have time.

51:24So it has to be swift.

51:29I was curious that you raised Jainism because when I was in school, all the children were

51:36always asked, what would you like to be when you grow up and they would say a ballerina,

51:41an astronaut, and I would say, I want to be a Jain because I always thought the values

51:47of Jainism was so wonderful.

51:50I do go sometimes before the pandemic to give talks at Jain conferences, Jaina in US, and

52:00I feel now since Guru Chitra Banerjee has died, that it's my obligation again, there's

52:08that word, my responsibility, to do all I can to ask Jains particularly to be true to

52:17himself because at the conferences, it's the dude culture that comes to the fore again

52:24and you see long lines for the creamy desserts and the milky this, that, and the other, and

52:31very short lines for the vegan food.

52:35I think, come on now, all of us have religious values or values, ethical values that we say

52:43we believe in.

52:44Now we have to be strong and curb these carnal instincts that we have, these bodily desires

52:52that we have because they pass.

52:55You eat something, you're full.

52:57You don't then say, oh, I wish I had such and such.

53:01You're full.

53:02So at these conferences, I'm always saying, come on, look at the mother cow.

53:07Look at the baby who sometimes they take away and stuff, they kill, they stuff, they let

53:12him starve.

53:13They don't do it with their own hands, but they do and stuff him with straw and put him

53:18near his mother so the mother thinks she's making milk for this dead child.

53:24Look, we cannot, for a moment on your lips, you cannot allow this to happen.

53:31So those values of religion, of ethics, of morals, of showing, as you say, that we are

53:39more than bodily functions.

53:41We are thinking, feeling, sentient being with things we can do to make the world a better

53:49place.

53:50I think Christian, Buddhist, Jain, Hindu, it doesn't matter.

53:54We are all in this together and we must do our best and we must talk to as many people

53:59as we possibly can about doing our best.

54:03Especially in India, if you can have a dialogue with Jain scholars, serious Vedantists and

54:16Buddhist leaders, I'm so sure that they'll easily lend their support and

54:24veganism actually is at the forefront of ethics.

54:32It is at the forefront of ethics and the problem that veganism is tackling is essentially a

54:42philosophical problem, even a religious problem.

54:47What is man's relationship with the universe, with the sentient universe?

54:52What is a human being's relationship with the sentient universe?

54:58It's a question, it's a very important question in philosophy that veganism is very

55:03successfully answering.

55:05So if we engage with streams that have a philosophical base, like Vedant, like Buddhism,

55:15like Jainism, surely the scholars would be willing to come on board and help raise awareness

55:24and once, at least in India, the population sees that there is a moral edge to being a

55:31vegan.

55:33Moral edge approved by religion, so religious morality.

55:38So there is a moral edge to being a vegan.

55:40More and more people would want to join in and yes, a lot needs to be done and let's

55:54see, at least this particular conversation would go to, obviously from the PETA side

56:05to the PETA channels and to our channel and there, if I estimate, one in every three,

56:14four or five videos deals directly with veganism.

56:19And the remaining two, three, four videos out of five, where I'm not directly talking

56:23of veganism, then there are indirect oblique references.

56:27I would, for example, if I have to give an example of cruelty, I would be given the example

56:33of a cow or the same kind of example that you just gave, you know, the cow and the calf

56:38and the stuffed body and the milk making machine she's turned into and enforced insemination

56:44and all those things.

56:45So doing our bit and let's see how it turns out.

56:54The religious angle, just one last bit from my side because it just occurred to me, I

57:04thought I would add it.

57:06Religious angle is all the more important when you have an uphill climb like this one.

57:13So in the Bhagavad Gita, Shri Krishna, his central philosophy is nishkama karma, do the

57:20right thing and don't think of the consequences.

57:23So two things.

57:24One, do only the right thing to the best of your ability.

57:28Find out what is selflessly right.

57:32So figure it out and then plunge yourself into it and then don't be too bothered about

57:39the consequences.

57:40So when you have taken up a mission like veganism, like Peeta, I think the philosophy of

57:53Krishna becomes really indispensable.

57:57Absolutely.

57:58Thank you so much.

58:00Thank you.

58:00Thank you so much, my pleasure.

58:03Thank you both for this very wonderful session.

58:06I think it could have gone on for a lot longer and I think there are lots of avenues where

58:10we could regroup and have the discussion again.

58:13I heard the JNR conference, I heard Vedant, I heard disruption, lots of good things.

58:20So let's keep this going.

58:23And thank you both for being such powerful champions and fighters, not only for veganism,

58:30but as we found out, veganism is the underpinning for just being a decent, compassionate human

58:37being.

58:38Thank you both.

58:40Thank you.

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