In the latest episode of "Patriots Daily," CLNS Media Taylor Kyles sits down with offensive line guru Brandon Thorn of Establish the Run, OL Masterminds, and Bleacher Report for a deep dive into each of New England’s top offensive linemen
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00:00What's going on everyone? Taylor Kyle's here for CLNS Media coming at you with another
00:15episode of Pats Daily brought to you by our good friends at Price Picks and Game Time.
00:20Today we are joined by a special guest and friend of the show, my go to for all things
00:25offensive line play does such a great job. There's not a lot of people you can truly
00:29go to and have their opinion really be the sticking point and something you know you
00:33can consistently trust. But I've got that in today's guest, Brandon Thorne of Establish
00:37the Run, O-Line Masterminds and Bleacher Report. The person who really got me through the draft
00:42process when it came to offensive line evaluations and understanding how that position stacked
00:47up. So without further ado, Brandon, thank you so much for coming back and how you doing
00:51buddy? I'm doing really good, man. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being back. So
00:56before we get into it, you just released a piece where you ranked all the offensive
00:59lines in the NFL. Really go check it out on Establish the Run, even if it's not just for
01:04the Patriots. So you have an idea of where the positions actually stack up throughout
01:08the NFL and who the Patriots are going to be playing. And New England was actually ranked
01:1131st, tough but fair, with an offensive line of that's projected to be Chuck Socorro on
01:17the left, Sidney So, David Andrews, Nick Leverett or Leighton Robinson, and then Mike Nwenu
01:22at right tackle. So what was your thought process behind that ranking? And do you feel
01:27any better knowing that towards minicamp and the end of minicamp, the right side was actually
01:32Nwenu and Caden Wallace, a little bit of a switch up? Yeah, well, in that scenario, I
01:39would feel a little bit better about them. But, you know, I still probably have them
01:43as maybe a bottom 10 unit, even with that. I just so I mean, for my ranking, you know,
01:49I guess first 31st, with the initial projected lineup of Nwenu at right tackle, Sidney So
01:57moved over to left. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think just starting left to right, I think
02:03moving a core for over to the left side when he was, you know, a replaceable starter at
02:10right tackle. That's probably the biggest question mark that I have. Just because, you
02:17know, I don't know that he he was kind of barely hanging on, you know, at right tackle.
02:21So switching over to the left, I don't see how that is, you know, going to be an improvement.
02:28Or even if he's going to be able to kind of match the play that he had over the last several
02:32years, you know, right. So I'm expecting him to maybe be a little bit worse over there.
02:36And, you know, that could be really rough. And then there's nobody behind him to take
02:40his spot. So it's basically him or bust, essentially. So that, you know, that's pretty tough, tough
02:49outlook there. And then left guard, you know, Sidney So, who I, you know, liked coming out.
02:55I think he's a good run blocker and, you know, whatnot. Maybe going over to left, which was
03:00his college spot at Eastern Michigan. Maybe, you know, there's a little bit more comfort
03:06there. And, you know, if he's what he was last year and maybe a little bit better, then,
03:11you know, that could be pretty solid. But switching spots after a rookie year, you know,
03:16even though that is his primary position as a college athlete, you know, that that one,
03:21I still have a lot of questions about him and pass protection, especially. So just pass
03:27protection in general, which is what my rankings are geared towards for establish the run.
03:32I'm trying to focus on that and basically build in kind of a slant towards that. That
03:39left side, you know, is very questionable to me and pass protection. And then center,
03:45you know, is your your best your best player, you know, maybe him or him or Mike and one
03:51over your two kind of strong points. But, you know, center, I'm not worried about David
03:55Andrews, you know, is solid. And then, you know, the other side, I mean, if, you know,
04:01of course, this is up in the air, but Mike and want to, you know, a right tackle. I,
04:05I don't see a very good pass protector as a tackle. They're just short corners getting
04:11beat around the edge, you know, quite a bit that could be mitigated, you know, based on
04:16quarterback play and scheme and things like that. But, you know, I just see kind of an
04:21average or below average pass protector there. You know, if he slid inside, though, I think
04:26that's where he's best and where some of that, you know, where his strengths really get
04:32maximized and weaknesses can get covered up even easier. And so, you know, that would
04:36change things. But if assuming he's the right tackle, I think pass protection wise, you're
04:41just a little limited there, you know, with what you could do, especially against high
04:45end competition. So, yeah, I mean, that was kind of, you know, and then when you stack
04:52up all that stuff, I mean, I just don't see a very good pass protecting unit here. You
04:57know, granted, there's, you know, I don't know that we should necessarily be expecting
05:01that considering where they are and everything in their team building process, you know,
05:05just new, new coaching staff, new quarterback, high picked quarterback, not a lot invested
05:11in the offensive line, especially with Cole Strange out of the lineup. These are all kind
05:15of like mid rain, mid round drafted to undrafted sort of guys, you know, not paying these guys
05:23very much money. I think David Andrews, you know, cap it wise might be the highest cap
05:28and I'm not sure, but I know in water just signed that deal. But I mean, you know, it's
05:32just it's kind of expected to, you know, based on where they are. But yeah, I just have a
05:39lot of questions and pass protection and it could get a little bit better with Kate and
05:43Wallace in the lineup, you know, a little bit more upside room for improvement. But
05:46yeah, it's pretty rough going in, I think right now.
05:51That's totally fair. And that's the biggest thing. There's a lot of pessimism around this
05:53position group, and that's because there are so many unknowns. You got guys switching sides,
05:58some guys playing in the NFL for the first time, a lot of things that you just can't
06:01really grab onto and know for a fact that this is going to be a solid unit. And in saying
06:06that, let's eat our vegetables first, kind of talk about the player that you mentioned
06:10is kind of the biggest glaring hole in terms of you really don't know what you're going
06:13to get in shoots or core for. So like you said, he may not even be as good as he was
06:17on the right side when he's on the left. I actually thought in pass protection, I thought
06:21this is just my opinion. I trust you more than I trust my own eyes because you're much
06:25more experienced. But I know I saw him against Nick Bose. I thought he was pretty solid.
06:29I like the athleticism, the aggressiveness in his sets. But I also understand there's
06:33times where he gets beat inside, which you really don't want. So I'm curious in this
06:37scheme for the Patriots now expand Pelt, which the players have told us is basically going
06:41to be like the brown scheme where everything kind of builds off the run game. There's a
06:45lot of things where there won't be a ton of situations where these tackles ideally are
06:49really on an island. Do you think that scheme can do enough to hope to so core for and make
06:54him just someone who isn't the kind of liability where you're saying we can't even have him
06:57on the field kind of like what they had last season with Darian low a lot of the time with
07:01Trent Brown missing some action? Yeah. You know, with that sort of scheme, I mean, I
07:07think if it's going to happen, it's probably going to happen in that scheme, but I still
07:11don't feel that good about it. You know, I mean, the run game is going to have to be
07:15really, really good for for it to, I think, happen, you know, and for that pressure to
07:22be off of him. And, you know, they're consistently favorable down a distance situations where
07:27he's not having to be exposed and things like that. They're playing with leads, you know,
07:32kind of that sort of thing. Just a lot of favorable situations, you know, and I think
07:39if the run game is really, really good, you know, like a top 10 run game, you know, and
07:44that could kind of allow, you know, play action and things like that to be a little
07:48bit more, you know, convincing and you're just in these good, you know, fortunate kind
07:53of situations as an offensive lineman. Not a lot of drop back past situations and that
07:57sort of thing. Obvious past situations then. Yeah, it could happen, but you know, I'm pretty
08:03skeptical that that's going to happen at least initially. But, you know, granted, these rankings
08:09are in June. So, yeah, we have, I have, you know, about 45 days or so to kind of change
08:16these a little bit, at least based on training camp injuries, things like that, reports,
08:22all that, how things are going. So we'll see. But as of June, yeah, I'm pretty skeptical
08:28that that's going to happen for the course of the, you know, the full course of the season.
08:33I'm actually curious, going a little off script here, when it comes to mini camp and OTAs,
08:38these guys aren't even wearing pads. You know, the defensive line can look really good because
08:41they're in attack mode and there's not a whole lot that the offensive line can do to push back.
08:45What do you take away from that time of year? Or is there really anything? Because even the
08:49coaches have told us it's really more about fundamentals than it is about actual schemes.
08:53So, you know, sometimes a lot's made about, oh, the O-line looks so bad, but I try to reserve
08:58my judgments until more training camp and preseason. We can really see these guys kind
09:03of walk horns. I would say nothing, you know, I would take nothing from that,
09:09aside from just lineup stuff, you know, like who's playing where. So I'd say probably zero.
09:15You know, I'm basing this off of studying him his entire career, you know, and basically you just go
09:21off tape, you know, of all these guys and what you've seen over the course of years and years,
09:28unless they're, of course, rookies, and then you go based on your college, you know, evaluation.
09:32So this is purely just based off of how these guys have played football over the course of
09:37their football careers, you know, basically. And that's really it. And then, you know,
09:43you also factor in kind of scheme, you know, what you expect it to be, what, you know,
09:47the situations you expect them to be in, and then the coach and then his track record.
09:51And then in this case, we don't have a track record. However, you know, based on his background
09:56coming under Bill Callahan, there's, you know, I'm pretty encouraged by that, that he could get
10:00these guys, you know, on a good trajectory, you know, at least. So, you know, there's definitely
10:06that factor as well, that I have some optimism here just based on coach Adams, or excuse me,
10:11Peter's background. I'm going to clip that right there because I've been trying to put that
10:16asterisk on all these observations from the offensive line. It's way too soon to be saying
10:20anything definitive. I'm trying to, you know, give some optimism with the realism as well.
10:24But yeah, I just, I've been trying to say that I really don't think there's a lot we can glean
10:28before we move on from Shukes. Is there anything, as you said, you've seen years of his tape that
10:33Patriots fans can look forward to and be a little bit optimistic about? I mean, I think you touched
10:38on it. He kind of his play style, you know, that aggressive kind of, you know, get after you kind
10:43of play style, at least in pass protection. You know, he is an aggressive pass blocker,
10:49which is, you know, kind of good and bad, a double edged sword. Like you mentioned it, I mean,
10:54losing inside, that has to get corrected, you know, and it's just bad. I mean, he could get
11:01set up, you know, with counters like rushers who could set up their moves, you know, effectively
11:07with hesitation, stutters, feints, things like that can really just cause him to kind of flip
11:14open his hips and just get beat across his face very easily. So while, you know, he can kind of
11:21get after a guy with a jump set and to rep quickly here and there, I think it's very sporadic and he
11:28just loses glaringly too often for what you typically want to see a starter, you know, do.
11:36So yeah, it's just, it's very up and down. But yeah, I mean, I just think anytime you have that
11:43kind of approach that he has, you know, you're going to be able to clip a couple of nice reps
11:48a game against some really good rushers, you know. So I think that's really like the best thing
11:53that he brings is just, you know, kind of his change ups and stuff that he can kind of catch
11:58a guy off guard here and there.
12:00And Scott Peters, we trust hopefully he can work with Shooks to refine that and make sure again, the losses inside quickly are really the death knell.
12:07It's one thing if you're hanging on at least and giving your guy time, but if you're getting beat,
12:11like as soon as contact happens, that's something you can't live with. We're going to stick to the
12:15left side of the offensive line and talk about City. So, but first quick word from our friends
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13:27So moving on to Siddy So now at left guard, like you mentioned his college position,
13:31he touched on the run blocking and the pass blocking. Run blocking, he was PFF's highest
13:35rated rookie offensive lineman. And you can see that on the tape, hope that he was in between
13:39David Andrews and Mike Kenway, but he did a lot of impressive things on his own as well.
13:43But then in pass protection, he did have a pressure rate that you don't want to carry
13:47over into next season. So from your perspective, what allowed him to thrive his rookie season?
13:52Why did he struggle? And where do you think he needs to improve to really take that next step
13:57and be a quality starter? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is from what you saw, you know,
14:04and him in college, you know, based on his college scouting report. Just, I think the strengths,
14:10you know, he's definitely like an older developed physically prospect, you know, coming out and
14:15he's 24, 25 years old. And he kind of plays that way. He kind of has that really established play
14:21strength and power, you know, good arm length as well, big hands. He's just a physically imposing
14:27blocker, you know, and I think that really is, you know, more easier to be translated into the run
14:33game. So heavy hands on contact establishes first meaningful contact. Well, really good in the post
14:40on double teams. I think that's probably the best thing he did last year. Him and Mike and Wando on,
14:44you know, double teams was one of the more underrated kind of duos in the league. I think
14:50along the offensive line, just in terms of creating movement, you know, reestablishing
14:54the line and getting guys, you know, pushed off the ball and creating a lot of displacement
15:00vertically and laterally. So, you know, he's able to kind of punch guys, steer them, widen them and
15:06create lanes off of his back. You primarily see that like in, you know, on angle drive blocks,
15:11base blocks, you know, down blocks and double teams. And that's kind of what he did in college.
15:16And that's where he succeeded last year. He's very physical, good finisher, you know, he's trying to
15:21set a tone out there and just plays with the right mindset. But in pass protection, just
15:27like what I basically said coming out, I saw a lot of that as well, just very rigid, you know,
15:33not very good with his hands. You know, he has a very strong punch, I would say, but
15:42when guys are set wide on him, especially, you know, like the loose three technique, kind of four
15:47eye, even five technique, those sorts of alignments, high end three techniques where he has to deal
15:52with a lot of space. He's not very good with his, you know, getting to a spot, being patient,
15:58knowing when to throw his hands, how to throw his hands with the right timing placement.
16:04So that just leads to quick losses. Guys either create, you know, crossing his face or, you know,
16:10trapping that outside hand and winning around the edge. He's just a little bit all over the place
16:15in pass protection in those sorts of situations when he's not able to get his hands on guys
16:20quickly. So he wants to set aggressively, be physical. Hopefully in this game, you know,
16:27he could do that even more. But, you know, in the true drop back situations where he's not able to
16:33just go get a guy because he's not super close to him, you know, he's just not very skilled right
16:40now. So, yeah, I mean, I just think he needs to improve just kind of with the nuances, you know,
16:47and I think footwork, you know, would help that as well to get himself in good positions,
16:51not over set guys, not under set guys and, you know, force guys to square up with him and, you
16:57know, kind of try to work down the center of him. I think that's really what his goal is and should
17:03be in pass protection is to get guys centered up. So, you know, then it's about, okay, you got to
17:08work through me as opposed to, you know, he's trying to kind of chase guys and, you know,
17:14it's just not a good situation for him. So, yeah, I mean, I just think he's kind of a
17:21one-dimensional pass protector right now and that's what hurts him.
17:25You mentioned the experience and I'm actually curious because that seems to be a pattern with
17:29what the Patriots have gone for in their offensive linemen. Like you see that with
17:33Caden Wallace where they like guys who've been playing for a while. Do you think that has
17:38something to do with the fact that there's just so little time for these offensive linemen to
17:42get quality reps in practice because you can't play with pads? There's not as much time you get
17:46to practice at all. And, you know, one guy I really liked in the draft was Kingsley Suomataia,
17:51but then, you know, he's really inexperienced and it seemed like maybe the Patriots weren't as high
17:55on him as we were on the outside. Do you feel like maybe that might be a factor in where they've been
17:59leaning the past few years when it comes to their offensive linemen? Yeah, that would make sense.
18:05You know, I think this year we had a lot of guys who were very inexperienced, you know,
18:10go high in the draft, but that's just the way it was. I mean, these guys were also very young,
18:15you know, 21 years old, that sort of thing. You know, CeeDee So is a 25-year-old rookie, I believe,
18:20so that's abnormally old. But yeah, I think there's something to that for sure.
18:27You know, and just as you said, you know, if you've played more football along the offensive line,
18:32typically you're able to project those guys easier because you kind of know what you're getting.
18:37So yeah, I mean, that would make sense to me. Granted, usually with those sorts of guys,
18:44you know, that are older, there's also a little bit less runway to improve, but
18:48if they're already good, then, you know, that doesn't matter. But in a lot of these cases,
18:54you know, it's a give and take. You know, do you want the guy with a little bit higher floor,
18:58know what you're getting, kind of plug him in and go, but he's never going to be a real needle
19:04mover for you. It just kind of depends on like where you're at to, you know, how you want to
19:10build your offensive line and what the hierarchy looks like on your offensive line too. Like are
19:15you drafting one of these high floor, low ceiling guys to come in and be your fourth or fifth best
19:20starter? You know, then that makes total sense. And, you know, I would probably advocate for that
19:26kind of player, but man, if you're starting from scratch or close to it and he's going to be your
19:30top starter or your second best starter, then, you know, I understand swinging for the fences a
19:36little bit more and go on more higher ceiling, lower floor kind of guy. So a lot of it depends
19:41on kind of where you're at, you know, what your offensive line room looks like, your coach and,
19:46you know, things like that as well. While we're on that topic, I feel like
19:50Caden Walsh is kind of a natural transition there. Someone who surprised a lot of Patriots fans,
19:54third round pick when he was selected. I know I was personally confused. I was like, okay,
19:59when he's supposed to be the right tackle, is he the right tackle? Is he going to play guard?
20:02What's going on? Elliot Wolfe told us that he was actually a Scott Peters pick and he does project
20:07him as the left tackle of the future. Probably not this season, unless he really makes a jump
20:11and there's another kind of switch, but it seems like he's going to start as the right tackle for
20:14right now. And maybe he's going to cross train. I know that's a big thing with Scott Peters. So
20:19what are you expecting from him? Do you think he can make that transition to the left side
20:22eventually? And if he does have to start immediately on the right side, what should Patriots
20:26fans expect? Yeah. I mean, I think he could potentially move over to left, especially on
20:33this offensive line where, you know, a core of four is over there and Wallace might be the better
20:39choice earlier than we may think. Honestly, I mean, I wouldn't be shocked to see Wallace over
20:44there, you know, and then, and then on one or just stick it right and just roll with that.
20:49That would make some sense. But yeah, I mean with Wallace, you know, I think the thing that I liked
20:55so much about him is just the way he moves. You know, he's just a very loose kind of fluid mover,
21:00both out of a stance and then redirecting, recovering. I think he has good body control.
21:08And just, I really liked his movement skills, you know, and he has a good ability to play long,
21:12which I know is a huge thing with Scott Peters and really because of Bill Callahan and, you know,
21:18the way that they teach, you know, in terms of playing long, Bill Callahan is a big advocate
21:23of that sort of mindset and terminology. So basically, you know, off the ball, especially
21:29in the run game, you want to establish first meaningful contact on guys. You don't want to
21:33play short and let them get into your chest. You want to play long and, you know, keep guys at your
21:38fingertips. And I specifically noted Wallace as one of those guys in this draft that did that as
21:44well as anybody. So he really maximizes his length. And if you have good length, you know,
21:49how to maximize it like that with good, you know, strike timing and hand placement,
21:54and then you're a good mover, you know, that's a really nice kind of foundation to work with.
22:00Now, you know, adding into that, I just think when you watched him in previous years,
22:05he was very inconsistent. He took a leap this year, which was nice. It seemed like
22:09things clicked for him and he had by far the best year of his career at Penn State this past season.
22:15So, you know, you would assume that he turned a corner and now, you know, he's just going to
22:21continually get incrementally better and not take a step back. So yeah, I mean, this is a guy that,
22:28you know, considering where he was drafted, it could be a really nice,
22:32could provide really nice value here in the next year or two, you know, because he's a guy who has
22:37the tools physically and sort of his technique as well, I think, to play pretty early on and,
22:44you know, do pretty well. He could even potentially play guard, not that he will here, but
22:49I talked to a coach who also mentioned that to me and I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess he probably
22:53could. So he's just one of those guys that has a nice kind of, you know, toolkit to start with,
22:59you know, as a young guy to come in and work with. So it makes a lot of sense that they liked him.
23:04And, you know, like I said, again, on this offensive line, I mean, I'd be surprised if
23:10he's going to be on the bench all year. I just, I would bet on him being in the lineup at some
23:15point for sure. Finally, a bright spot on this offensive line. Hopefully we can keep that train
23:20going. We're going to get into some of the other veterans on this unit, but first quick words for
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24:45lowest price guaranteed. So Mike and Wenu feels like one of the few players on this offensive
24:50line where you feel pretty confident you're going to get quality play out of them. Now,
24:54at right tackle, I will say, I agree. I didn't love him as a pass protector. I feel like he's
24:58an okay tackle. But I feel like he has a pro-ball upside as a guard where, again, we saw him towards
25:04the end of minicamp. My one concern with Wenu at guard is that I'm not sure how well he fits in
25:09that wide zone scheme that Alex Van Pelt has always kind of had in his back pocket. Anywhere
25:13he's gone, outside zone is either the most popular concept or the second most popular.
25:17So I'm curious, do you think with Wenu inside, it might limit their ability to have wide zone
25:22as a base in their offense? They're obviously going to do a ton of things. But also with how
25:25much they like to pull their interior alignment in that scheme, do you think maybe they might be
25:30kind of beholden to just downhill stuff? Or do you think they can still make it work if he's inside?
25:36I mean, I think they could make it work. I think, you know, going back to Wallace,
25:40maybe at left and then on Wanu at right tackle, I think that might be probably the lineup that
25:45makes the most sense. But, you know, just individually speaking, regardless of scheme,
25:50I like him most at guard. But then when you add in the scheme, yeah, then I could see
25:55okay, and based on the other players on this, you know, offensive line, right tackle could make the
26:00most sense. So I could kind of go either way. But yeah, there is, you know, some limitations,
26:07I guess, if he was at guard, you know, he's, you know, he's not Batonio or Teller or somebody like
26:11that who, you know, that this sort of scheme, those sort of guards that they've typically had
26:16who have more movement skills than him. So, you know, maybe there would be. I would ideally want
26:24to see just those adjustments made and, you know, just incorporate a little bit more gap type of
26:29scheme, you know, to fit him. But at the same time, it does, it's kind of hard to just overlook
26:36the fact that a core four is out there at left tackle. I think ideally you want to kind of work
26:41Wallace in there and try to see if he can, you know, supplement him. But yeah, I kind of go back
26:49and forth at this point, you know, I could see pros and cons to each side of it.
26:54I'm on the exact same page there. Now, David Andrews, another guy where you know what you're
26:58going to get pretty much, but it can't be ignored that he's a 10 year veteran in the NFL, which a
27:04lot of experience, but also there's wear and tear as a center. Very few players get beat up as much
27:09as those guys on the inside. So what did you see from David Andrews last season? And do you expect
27:14him to kind of take a step back in any way? Or did you see that his play was pretty steady?
27:19Yeah, I mean, as long as he's healthy and not like really, really dinged up, you know,
27:24which you could say is pretty much about anybody, but I mean, I still see a solid player, you know,
27:28somebody that you definitely don't want to replace or anything like that. Again, especially in this
27:34sort of scenario, I think his value, you can make the case he's the most valuable guy on this
27:39offensive line, specifically, you know, with Drake May coming in, you know, assuming he's, you know,
27:46playing the majority of the year, having a guy like David Andrews, you know, we've talked about
27:50this over the years, you know, having that savvy veteran experience center for a young quarterback,
27:57just, there's so much hidden value in that, you know, off the field, pre-snap the whole
28:04operation of the offense. So if Andrews goes down, you know, I just see if, and assuming May's in the
28:11lineup, that could really have a lot of negative effects on the offense. So I just think Andrews,
28:18you know, regardless of kind of like how well he's sustaining and finishing blocks or anchoring and
28:24all these sorts of things, the pre-snap operation of the offense is going to be something that he
28:31is going to be such a critical part of that his value is really hard to kind of overstate because
28:38of that. And then, yeah, when you study him on film, I still do think he is a solid player who
28:43could kind of do, he's pretty well-rounded and he doesn't have like a glaring weakness and yeah,
28:48all that kind of stuff. But I think there's just, there's just a lot that he brings to the table
28:52that is going to be a huge help to this offense and Drake May in particular. Awesome. Now wrap
28:59this up with Layden Robinson, another pick that was kind of a surprise to Patriots fans, made a
29:03lot more sense with Cole strange. Now we know he might not even play until mid season. They don't
29:08play the exact same position, but still more help on the interior. When I was looking it up, I was
29:12trying to see, all right, what idea do they have for him? And it turned out that he and Wyatt Teller
29:16Brown's offensive lineman guard were actually both day three picks and mock draft will have them
29:22pretty similar when it came to testing both guys who have good length, pretty explosive with their
29:26first step. Now, obviously Wyatt Teller is an all pro guard. I don't necessarily want to put those
29:30expectations on Layden Robinson, but under Scott Peters, do you think he can be a similar player
29:35in the way that these may be utilized? I mean, I don't see the caliber of athlete that Wyatt
29:43Teller is, you know, I, regardless of, you know, the mock draftable thing, I just, I just don't see
29:49that comp at all, you know, in terms of movement skills, athletic ability. But I do see a player
29:55that, you know, has a lot to offer. He is a really good puller, but I just think he's not going to
30:02have the range as a puller that Teller has in terms of targets that are further away, especially
30:08when he starts wrapping, you know, up through the line of scrimmage to the second level. And
30:14he's going to have to start tracking guys and things like that. The things that Teller does
30:18so well, where he has these incredible blocks, you know, at the second and third level and,
30:22you know, like long pull type situations, but short pulls kicking out a guy, like he's violent,
30:29powerful. Again, a guy with really good length, which I know Scott, or yeah, yeah, Coach,
30:37I keep calling him out, Coach Peters really likes, Coach Callahan likes. Again, playing long, getting
30:42into a guy quickly, establishing first meaningful contact is something that he did well on film.
30:48So, I mean, I really like, you know, what he did on film at Texas A&M in the run game in particular.
30:56He's definitely a guy with kind of the size, the length, the heavy hands. And I also like
31:04his snap timing a lot as well. That really stood out to me. He gets off the ball quick.
31:09And if you get off the ball quickly with those sort of measurables and that much power, you could
31:14really, you know, cave guys in in the run game and create lanes off your back and, you know,
31:19things like that. And he's a really good finisher as well. But I don't see good recovery skills if
31:25guys do get across his face or kind of get to his edges in terms of flipping his hips and, you know,
31:30sealing off lanes when, you know, guys are, you know, when he's facing like gap exchanges and
31:36slants and things like that. He doesn't handle those particularly well, but I think if his
31:41processing improves and he's really dialed in with the scheme and, you know, he's coached up
31:46well, like that stuff can get a little bit better, kind of hide that a little bit. But yeah, and the
31:52same kind of thing translates to pass protection where he, you know, delivers body blows when
31:58uncovered, you know, take guys off their feet. You know, he anchors well against the bull rush,
32:03but man, he really struggles with oversetting guys and just striking guys with two hands or
32:10just too heavy with his hands and missing clean across his face. Those were really bad on film.
32:17So he's really going to have to clean that up, you know, to stick in the lineup, I think. But
32:23yeah, I mean, he clearly has strengths, you know, that I think will translate well.
32:30You know, early on, I compared him to John Simpson. That's kind of the guy I see, you know,
32:35if he could turn out to be like a John Simpson has, then I think that's probably the best case
32:40scenario for him, which would be a really nice player, you know, and somebody who, you know,
32:46could be kind of a, you know, like the third, fourth best starter, you know, on an offensive
32:50line. And this is ideal, you know, like the top range of an outcome, I think. But I think that's,
32:56you know, within the realm of possibility for him. But yeah, and with Cole Strange,
33:01you know, I think the opportunity is there. And I would imagine that, you know, Coach Peters
33:06liked him quite a bit as well. Yeah. You mentioned the snap timing. He's one of those guys where I
33:10had to pause a lot of the time, because I'm just like, is he going early? Or like, you just
33:15literally go frame by frame, kind of like, nope, he's okay. He's just really quick. And you
33:20mentioned the way that he pulls the Patriots, especially the past couple of years, especially
33:23when he went inside. Instead of true power, you'd see more long trap, where those interior guys
33:28are really just kicking out. They're not asking to attract to the second level. Not exactly what
33:33the Browns are doing. But hopefully, again, Alex Van Pelt has been preaching, do what your players
33:37do best. You hope that he can maybe accommodate those guys and do what they do. And with the
33:41pass protection, I'm curious, because like you mentioned, without Cole Strange, there is
33:45opportunity inside, especially if and when you end up going back to right tackle and Caden Wallace
33:49at left tackle. Do you see a realistic scenario where Leighton Robinson becomes a starter in year
33:54one and isn't a true liability? Or do you think he's more of a year two starter type?
34:02I would probably lean more towards year two. But yeah, like contrasting him with Cole Strange,
34:09just, you know, completely different players, much more powerful, bigger, stronger, you know,
34:14those sorts of things. He's going to be able to anchor and handle the bull rush
34:17better than Cole Strange can. Now he's, you know, obviously, you know, he's not as good
34:22of an athlete and things like that. But I don't know that that matters a whole lot,
34:26because if you don't have the strength, you know, I feel like play strength is probably
34:30the most important thing. And he definitely has that. So yeah, I mean, in on this offensive line,
34:37I could see him starting the majority of the games, you know, but I think ideally, I'd probably
34:42be a year two starter. But in the opportunities there, man, I think on this line for him,
34:49if he earns that job early on before Cole Strange is ready to come back,
34:54you know, it might be kind of tough for Cole Strange to pry that spot back from him,
34:59you know, especially with the ability to anchor, you know, I think that that was kind of a big
35:04issue for Cole Strange, I thought. And yeah, it's kind of hard to sacrifice that for this theoretical
35:11kind of upside that Cole Strange has based on maybe, you know, his athletic ability and where
35:15he was drafted and things like that. I just, it's going to be tough for Strange to probably get back
35:20in the lineup, I would imagine, unless there's just a total catastrophe, you know, all around
35:24that, you know, what do you have to lose, but I don't necessarily see that happening, you know,
35:29based on the scheme and the coach and things like that. So.
35:33Understand Cole Strange, I actually spoke to him about the bull rush stuff. And he said that last
35:37season, he tried to put on more weight, but he mentioned he's missed so much time,
35:41you can't simulate a bull rush, you know, you can't really have somebody just attack you like
35:45that. And because he's missed so much time, it's kind of hurt his ability to also technically not
35:49only put on the weight, but then know how to use it. And with if the Patriots do end up going with
35:54the wide zone scheme of Andre Stevenson mentioned, it takes so much time, it's not like gap where you
35:58can kind of just go out there and execute it. You need chemistry, you need timing. And if he's not
36:03back until October, it's going to be really tough for a guy like Cole, just going into the lineup,
36:08if you know, everything goes right, and things are actually clicking. It really seems that this
36:12is the way his career has gone, obviously, and you hope something gets figured out down the line.
36:16Also, real quick, I'm curious, do you have any thoughts on Nick Leverett? Not a guy who figures
36:20to have a role if things go well, but I do like his versatility. And with, you know, as you know,
36:25those Browns offense use so many extra offensive linemen, I feel like he could maybe be a Nick
36:30Harris type, maybe an extra tight end. Any thoughts on his play? Yeah, I mean, based on what I saw from
36:36him in Tampa, I feel like he's kind of similar to Leighton Robinson. I think body type is actually
36:42kind of similar. I don't know his measurables off the top of my head, but kind of a similar
36:48player to Leighton Robinson, you know, in my opinion, just in terms of, I think he has pretty
36:52good length for his size and, you know, kind of heavy hands. But pass protection is very up and
37:00down, just not a very, like, tactical, nuanced, or skilled pass protector. It's just kind of hit or
37:06miss, and that's kind of why I think he hasn't been able to, you know, stay in the starting lineup.
37:12It's just kind of, he's kind of a liability there, but a guy who could play, you know, across the
37:17interior and, you know, definitely come in and, you know, play with power and violence and things
37:24like that. And, you know, he has kind of the size and the length to back it up. So, yeah, I mean,
37:30some similarities, Robinson, honestly, I think. Awesome. Brandon, thank you so much for your time,
37:35man. This has been a blast, as always. Before I let you go, please let the people know where
37:39they can find you, what great stuff you got coming down the pipeline that we should be looking out
37:42for. Yeah, so trenchwarfare.substack.com. You can find basically all my work there. I'm coming out
37:50with the offensive line almanac. I'm kind of putting that together right now, so that'll be
37:54out shortly within the next week or so. And then establishtherun.com. I just came out with my top
38:0232 offensive line rankings, and then I'll come out with my top 32 defensive line rankings there as
38:07well. You know, come out with those initially and then probably have some minor updates, you know,
38:12after training camp ends and things like that. Awesome. Thank you so much for your insight,
38:18buddy. One of the best in the business. And thank you all, as always, for watching.
38:22Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. We'll see you next time. Peace, y'all.