• 6 months ago
On Tuesday, the Senate Finance Committee held a hearing entitled, “Work and Social Security Disability Benefits: Addressing Challenges and Creating Opportunities.”

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Transcript
00:00:00The Finance Committee will come to order.
00:00:02This morning, the Finance Committee gathers to discuss how to update and strengthen Social
00:00:07Security disability programs.
00:00:10Our objective is to make it easier to work for Americans who have a severe disability
00:00:15and want to work again.
00:00:18When I talk to those with disabilities, they constantly say they want to contribute to
00:00:24their communities and they want to work in the private sector.
00:00:28But the laws that are on the books today when it comes to work and Social Security
00:00:34are a bureaucratic, suffocating, mindless straitjacket that makes it almost impossible
00:00:42to work while maintaining eligibility for benefits.
00:00:47So I'm especially pleased to be able to say that here on the Finance Committee, this has
00:00:53been a bipartisan cause.
00:00:56And I'd like to recognize Senators Brown, Casey, and Cassidy in particular, those three,
00:01:03for a very, very strong bipartisan effort to cut through all of this Byzantine red tape.
00:01:12They want to, on a bipartisan basis, help Americans who count on Social Security.
00:01:19There is a bedrock principle here, and that is Social Security is to provide Americans
00:01:25with financial security and dignity, and that it's an earned benefit, something they
00:01:31contribute to out of each paycheck.
00:01:34But for too many, especially those with a disability, dignity has fallen by the wayside
00:01:41because of these barriers when they're attempting to work.
00:01:46The vast majority of those who receive disability benefits have worked at least 10 years, 10
00:01:53long years, paying into Social Security with each paycheck.
00:01:57Becoming severely disabled due to illness or accident is a devastating blow.
00:02:03Fortunately, Social Security is there to help those Americans get back on their feet.
00:02:09It often takes months or even years to demonstrate to Social Security that their disability prevents
00:02:14them from performing a regular job.
00:02:18In spite of that, so many Americans want a chance to go to work, even in a limited capacity.
00:02:25They want to be part of their community.
00:02:27Unfortunately, the rules that Social Security make working with a disability almost the
00:02:33equivalent of running a marathon.
00:02:36Many of those who try to work get an overpayment from Social Security due to these outdated
00:02:41rules.
00:02:42An overpayment is something where they still have to deal with, but these are earned benefits
00:02:49and they're going to essentials like groceries, gas, and rent.
00:02:54Once Social Security realizes there's been a mistake, it often demands all of the money
00:02:58back and they demand it quickly and in full.
00:03:03These overpayment fines can run in the tens of thousands of dollars and too many Americans
00:03:10simply can't afford to pay.
00:03:13So something has to change, and what needs to change is to make it easier to work for
00:03:19those who want to work.
00:03:23I'm going to outline several ideas about how Social Security and Congress can help Americans
00:03:27do that, and in particular, so that Americans with disability can work without risking their
00:03:34eligibility for benefits and removing the red tape that holds them back.
00:03:40The first bill is modernizing the Supplemental Security Income Program, what's known as SSI.
00:03:47Here again, a bipartisan effort.
00:03:49Senators Brown, Casey, Cassidy, and Lankford, both sides of this dais, I would say to our
00:03:55guests and people who are following this, Democrats and Republicans leading the way,
00:04:00saying that Americans who receive SSI and are living on shoestring budgets with the
00:04:06average benefit only amounting to roughly $700 a month, those folks deserve a fair shake,
00:04:15and that means the program putting in place a meaningful update, the first one in 40 years.
00:04:21As a result, it's become harder and harder to keep benefits or engage in meaningful work
00:04:26due to artificially low income limits that haven't kept up with inflation.
00:04:30The most an American with SSI can have in their bank account is $2,000.
00:04:36That has been frozen since 1989.
00:04:39Today, that would be about $10,000.
00:04:41For SSI beneficiaries who attempt to work, benefits are reduced by $1 for every $2 they
00:04:47earn above $85 per month.
00:04:51That amounts to a 50% income tax rate.
00:04:54That's higher than the highest rate in the tax code.
00:04:59Put your arms around that.
00:05:01Highest rate in the tax code.
00:05:03So it's time to bring these rules, heaven forbid, into the 21st century.
00:05:11I'm glad to be able to join Senator Brown and Cassidy, Casey, and Lankford, and several
00:05:15of our other colleagues to take the first step to bring SSI into the 21st century with
00:05:22the savings penalty elimination feature.
00:05:27Next is our Bipartisan Work Without Worry Act.
00:05:30I introduced this with Senator Cassidy.
00:05:33The idea is direct.
00:05:35For Americans with lifelong disabilities like Down syndrome, cerebral palsy, or an intellectual
00:05:40disability, there ought to be additional protections allowing them to work without risking Social
00:05:46Security.
00:05:47So our bill removes the risk of past earnings disqualifying an individual in this situation
00:05:52from receiving disability benefits based on their parents' work history.
00:05:59This ought to be a no-brainer, folks.
00:06:02It's a chance to have a life change for thousands of Americans who want to participate in the
00:06:08workforce but don't out of fear that federal rules could hurt their ability to be financially
00:06:14secure down the road.
00:06:17The last is overpayments.
00:06:19Over the past year, this committee has heard horror stories every day about Americans getting
00:06:24huge overpayment bills from Social Security.
00:06:30Often that's because the program's tremendous complexity or a mistake made by the agency
00:06:36caused the problem.
00:06:38When Commissioner Martin O'Malley came before the Finance Committee, he pledged to take
00:06:43action to address the severity of these overpayment clawbacks.
00:06:48This spring, he took an important first step.
00:06:52That was to give Americans more time and flexibility to correct these payment errors and put in
00:06:57motion a critical update to how payroll data is processed by the agency.
00:07:03That was something that the Finance Committee championed to help reduce overpayments in
00:07:07the future.
00:07:08We'll have additional steps that we're looking at that reduce the frequency of the overpayments
00:07:13happening in the first place.
00:07:15I want everybody to understand we'll have more to say about that in the weeks ahead.
00:07:20These are some of the steps the committee is exploring to improve Social Security.
00:07:25Each member of the committee knows the importance of work.
00:07:28We understand as well the Social Security program's lifeline benefits.
00:07:34We look forward to hearing from our witnesses, all of whom have expertise in the field, because
00:07:38they're going to help us knock down the barriers to work and modernize Social Security for
00:07:44every American.
00:07:46It's about time.
00:07:47And I thank our guest, Senator Crapo.
00:07:50Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for holding today's hearing, examining how work can affect
00:07:55eligibility for Social Security disability insurance benefits and supplemental security
00:08:00income payments.
00:08:02This is an important topic and one that the Finance Committee has not examined in many
00:08:06years.
00:08:07Thank you, Senator, for paying attention to it.
00:08:11Individuals who receive Social Security disability benefits and want to work should be afforded
00:08:15that opportunity.
00:08:17Unfortunately, that is not always the case, and these individuals often face multiple
00:08:22challenges when attempting to rejoin the workforce.
00:08:28One of the challenges stems from the concern that if they resume working, they will lose
00:08:32access to their disability benefits and health insurance.
00:08:36There are provisions in place intended to help the transition, such as allowing SSDI
00:08:42beneficiaries to try working without immediately losing their benefits and extensions for health
00:08:47insurance coverage if their disability benefits stop due to work.
00:08:53However, these work incentives are complex and not well understood.
00:09:00I look forward to a discussion about what more can be done to improve awareness and
00:09:03understanding of the current work-related rules and incentives.
00:09:09Proposals to modify disability program rules to reduce barriers to work also merit serious
00:09:14review.
00:09:15However, we must be clear on the costs and other tradeoffs that come with a given simplification
00:09:21proposal.
00:09:22The Social Security Administration's recent track record of finalizing rules that increase
00:09:28mandatory spending by billions of dollars should not be the framework for program reforms.
00:09:35Work-related overpayments represent another challenge that many individuals with disabilities
00:09:40face if they try returning to work.
00:09:44Work-related overpayments can occur when the Social Security Administration does not receive
00:09:49or process earnings information in a timely manner and adjusts an individual's benefit
00:09:54amount accordingly.
00:09:57To help reduce the reporting burden on individuals and provide the Social Security Administration
00:10:02with timely earnings information, the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2015 allowed the agency to enter
00:10:09into an information exchange with a payroll data provider.
00:10:14In February, after years of delay, the Social Security Administration issued a proposed
00:10:20rule describing the agency's planned implementation of this provision.
00:10:25The proposed rule represents progress, and I urge the Social Security Administration
00:10:30to continue taking the steps necessary to implement this exchange.
00:10:37Although this new payroll information exchange will help, it will not include earnings information
00:10:42for all disability beneficiaries.
00:10:45The SSA must continue identifying ways to prevent or limit work-related overpayments
00:10:52before they occur.
00:10:55While barriers to returning to work are an important part of today's hearing, this is
00:10:59not the only way an individual's work activity can affect the individual's eligibility for
00:11:04disability benefits.
00:11:06The Social Security Administration uses a five-step process to determine eligibility
00:11:12for disability benefits.
00:11:15The fourth step in this process evaluates whether an individual can still perform past
00:11:21relevant work.
00:11:24If not, then the fifth step evaluates whether the individual can perform any other work
00:11:29that exists in the national economy.
00:11:33The SSA continues to rely on woefully outdated occupational data to make these determinations.
00:11:41This data both includes jobs that no longer exist in significant numbers and excludes
00:11:47jobs that do.
00:11:50It also does not accurately reflect how jobs are actually performed in today's economy.
00:11:57The Social Security Administration has already invested substantial time and resources into
00:12:02developing an alternative to this outdated occupational data, and I continue to urge
00:12:07the agency to move this project forward as well, as it is vital to ensuring applicants
00:12:13get an accurate disability decision.
00:12:17I thank our witnesses today for being here.
00:12:19I look forward to hearing your testimony, and thank you again, Mr. Chairman.
00:12:24I yield back.
00:12:25We'll be with you momentarily here.
00:12:26We've got some witness introductions to do, and we're going to hear first from Will Morton,
00:12:42analyst of income security at the Congressional Research Service.
00:12:45We welcome him.
00:12:46We'll hear from Ms. Susan Wilshiki, associate commissioner for research, demonstration,
00:12:52and employment support at Social Security.
00:12:55After her, we'll hear from Ms. Erin Gotland, the assistant director for education, workforce,
00:13:01and income security at the GAO.
00:13:03And last, and certainly very important, will be Katherine Zuleger, district manager at
00:13:08the Wausau, Wisconsin, field office and executive member of the National Council of Social Security
00:13:13Managers.
00:13:14We'll put all of your written statements into the record.
00:13:18If you could each take about five minutes or so, we'll be interested in questions.
00:13:22And why don't you proceed, Mr. Morton, and we'll go right down the row, please.
00:13:30Chairman Wyden, Ranking Member Crapo, and other distinguished members of the committee,
00:13:34my name is Will Morton, and I'm an analyst in income security at the Congressional Research
00:13:38Service.
00:13:39Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
00:13:42My testimony will provide background information on the programs that are the focus of today's
00:13:46hearing.
00:13:47The Social Security Administration, or SSA, oversees two federal disability programs,
00:13:53Social Security Disability Insurance, or SSDI, and Supplemental Security Income, or SSI.
00:13:59SSDI is part of the larger Social Security program, which provides monthly cash benefits
00:14:04to insured workers and their eligible family members in the event of a worker's retirement,
00:14:09disability, or death.
00:14:11Workers obtain insurance protection by working for a sufficient period in jobs covered by
00:14:15Social Security and its payroll tax, and benefits are based on a worker's career average earnings.
00:14:21Social Security provides disability benefits primarily to working-age individuals based
00:14:26on their own work records and covered jobs.
00:14:29It also provides disability benefits to certain dependents and survivors who qualify on the
00:14:33work record of an eligible spouse or parent.
00:14:37Social Security is financed primarily by payroll taxes, and disability beneficiaries
00:14:41automatically qualify for Medicare, generally after a 24-month waiting period.
00:14:46In contrast, SSI is a means-tested program that provides monthly cash benefits to eligible
00:14:51individuals who are age 65 or older, blind, or have a qualifying disability.
00:14:56SSI is intended for those who have difficulty meeting their basic living expenses due to
00:15:02age or disability, and who have little or no Social Security or other income.
00:15:07There are no work requirements to qualify for SSI.
00:15:10However, because the program is based on need, it is restricted to those with limited income
00:15:14and resources.
00:15:15SSI provides a flat maximum monthly benefit, which is reduced by any countable income,
00:15:21such as Social Security or earnings.
00:15:23SSI is financed by general revenues, and SSI recipients generally qualify for Medicaid
00:15:28in most states.
00:15:30Both programs use the same work-based definition of disability for adults.
00:15:35Disability is defined as the inability to engage in any substantial gainful activity
00:15:40due to any medically determinable physical or mental impairment that is expected to last
00:15:45for at least 12 consecutive months or to result in death.
00:15:48The impairment must be severe enough to prevent the individual from performing both their
00:15:52past work and any other substantial work that exists in significant numbers in the national
00:15:57economy, taking into consideration the person's age, education, and work experience.
00:16:03SSA uses an earnings limit to determine whether a person is performing substantial gainful
00:16:07activity or SGA, which in 2024 is $1,550 per month for most individuals.
00:16:14Although SSDI and SSI are designed to support eligible adults who have long-term work-living
00:16:19disabilities, they both have special program roles designed to encourage work among disability
00:16:24beneficiaries, known as work incentives.
00:16:27In general, work incentives allow disability beneficiaries to retain their cash and medical
00:16:31benefits under certain conditions while they attempt to return to work or pursue an employment goal.
00:16:38SSDI work incentives protect program eligibility for those who earn above the SGA limit and
00:16:44are often time-limited.
00:16:46SSI work incentives are designed largely around the program's financial eligibility rules
00:16:51and are generally not time-limited.
00:16:53In addition, SSI recipients have their benefits gradually offset as their earnings rise above
00:16:58a certain level, while SSDI beneficiaries who work either receive their regular benefits
00:17:03or nothing, depending on whether their earnings are above the SGA limit and the particular
00:17:08work incentives available to them.
00:17:11Despite the existence of work incentives, less than 1% of disability beneficiaries leave
00:17:15the roles each year due to work.
00:17:17Among surveyed beneficiaries, the most frequently cited reason for not working is that their
00:17:21physical or mental condition prevents them from working.
00:17:25Other potential barriers to work include inaccessible workplaces, work-related overpayments,
00:17:30and the complexity of SSA's work incentives.
00:17:33In conclusion, lawmakers established SSA's disability programs to support eligible adults
00:17:38who have long-term, work-limiting disabilities.
00:17:41At the same time, lawmakers established work incentives and return-to-work initiatives
00:17:46to encourage work among disability beneficiaries.
00:17:49Striking the appropriate balance between these competing objectives is something lawmakers
00:17:54have wrestled with over the years and may continue to do so in the future.
00:17:58Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
00:18:00I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.
00:18:02We'll have some momentarily.
00:18:04Thank you, Mr. Morton.
00:18:05Ms. Wilschke.
00:18:08Chairman Wyden, Ranking Member Crapo, and members of the committee, thank you for inviting
00:18:12me to discuss working while receiving Social Security disability benefits.
00:18:16I'm Susan Wilschke, Associate Commissioner of the Office of Research, Demonstration,
00:18:21and Employment Support at the Social Security Administration.
00:18:24I appreciate this opportunity to discuss how, together, we can support disability beneficiaries
00:18:30with an interest in working.
00:18:33Social Security provides essential income and services to a diverse population of Americans
00:18:37with disability through the Disability Insurance and Supplemental Security Income programs,
00:18:43collectively referred to as disability benefits.
00:18:46As of December 2023, we paid about $11.9 billion in monthly SSDI benefits to 8.5 million
00:18:55people and about $3.1 billion in monthly SSI payments to roughly 4 million people aged
00:19:0218 to 64 based on disability or blindness.
00:19:08Disability beneficiaries are some of our nation's most severely disabled people.
00:19:13The law defines disability stringently.
00:19:15A person must be unable to engage in any substantial gainful activity due to a physical
00:19:21or mental impairment that has lasted or is expected to last at least one year or to result
00:19:27in death.
00:19:28For most, self-supporting employment is not a viable option.
00:19:32In fact, our research and program statistics have shown that, even with supports, most
00:19:38of those who qualify for disability benefits are simply unable to return to full-time work.
00:19:44For example, our review of recipients awarded disability benefits in 2007 showed that, over
00:19:51the following 15-year period, only about 3 percent had enough work activity to have their
00:19:57disability benefits end.
00:19:59Therefore, we need to be pragmatic and strategic with policies to assist the limited number
00:20:05of beneficiaries who may be able to work and become financially independent.
00:20:11Congress has made clear their desire that individuals should work if they can, and we
00:20:15have consistently supported the efforts of beneficiaries who want to work.
00:20:21Current law includes several incentives and beneficiary supports, including ticket to
00:20:26work, work incentive planning and assistance, and protection and advocacy for beneficiaries
00:20:31of Social Security.
00:20:33However, beneficiaries report challenges with complex program rules, wage reporting requirements,
00:20:40and overpayments.
00:20:41For a person receiving both SSDI and SSI, the situation is even more complex due to
00:20:47differences in program rules.
00:20:50Under Commissioner O'Malley's leadership, we are undertaking several actions to support
00:20:55beneficiaries who attempt to work and gain financial independence.
00:20:59First, Commissioner O'Malley, as one of his top priorities, has taken several steps to
00:21:04reduce and better manage overpayments.
00:21:07Second, we have commissioned a new evaluation to assess the effectiveness of the Ticket
00:21:12to Work program and help us better understand which aspects of it work effectively and for
00:21:18whom.
00:21:19Third, in February, we published a proposed rule for the Payroll Information Exchange,
00:21:25or PAI.
00:21:26When fully implemented, PAI will allow us to reduce improper payments while lessening
00:21:31the burden of wage reporting on beneficiaries.
00:21:35One of the best tools provided in law by Congress is our ability to test promising
00:21:40disability program changes through demonstration projects.
00:21:44However, this authority expired in 2022.
00:21:48We would like to work with Congress to remedy this.
00:21:51Finally, our ability to support work for beneficiaries depends on sufficient funding.
00:21:57Social Security's operating budget has recently been less than 1% of its annual benefit payments.
00:22:04The President's budget request for fiscal year 2025 will improve customer service across
00:22:10the board, including our programs to support work.
00:22:15We are proud of the role our disability programs play in the nation's social safety net.
00:22:20While it's not realistic to expect that every disability beneficiary can work, we are committed
00:22:27to supporting as many individuals as possible to pursue their employment goals and improve
00:22:32work outcomes.
00:22:33On behalf of Commissioner O'Malley and Social Security, I thank you for your support in
00:22:38this effort and for inviting me to appear today.
00:22:40I look forward to answering your questions.
00:22:42Thank you.
00:22:43We'll have some questions in a little bit.
00:22:44Ms. Gottman.
00:22:48Chairman Wyden, Ranking Member Crapo, and members of the committee, thank you for inviting
00:22:54me to discuss work incentives and challenges in SSA's disability programs.
00:23:00This statement is informed by 30 years of GAO work.
00:23:05Over 11 million working-age adults receive disability benefits from SSA in 2022.
00:23:12Some of those 11 million want to work.
00:23:16We found three disincentives they face.
00:23:20One, loss of cash and medical benefits, two, the fear of overpayments, and three, the complexity
00:23:29of rules surrounding work.
00:23:31I'll discuss each briefly and progress and challenges SSA faces addressing them.
00:23:37First, the loss of benefits.
00:23:40When disability beneficiaries return to work and earn income, they must report these earnings
00:23:45to SSA and SSA adjusts their benefits.
00:23:49Those beneficiaries who earn over a certain income limit are at risk of eventually losing
00:23:54cash and medical benefits.
00:23:56In 2024, this limit is $1,150 per month for DI beneficiaries.
00:24:03That's $18,600 per year.
00:24:07And the limit is lower for SSI beneficiaries.
00:24:10Research shows that the fear of losing benefits is a prime deterrent to earning over these
00:24:16limits.
00:24:17Second, overpayments, which occur when SSA delays processing earnings or when beneficiaries
00:24:23don't report them.
00:24:26Overpayments can result in SSA demanding repayment by beneficiaries, and those demands can be
00:24:30sent years later and total tens of thousands of dollars.
00:24:35One employment counselor shared an example of a client who had a great experience, was
00:24:39placed in a job, and later received a $28,000 repayment notice.
00:24:45Third, complexity.
00:24:47Make sure I heard that correctly.
00:24:49They got an overpayment notice of $28,000?
00:24:52That's correct.
00:24:53Thank you.
00:24:54Yes.
00:24:56Third, complexity.
00:24:57Even when beneficiaries accept the risk of losing benefits and receiving an overpayment,
00:25:02the complexity of the rules surrounding work and benefits can deter working.
00:25:06It can also be difficult for the agency to manage.
00:25:10SSA staff and employment counselors told us even they get confused explaining the rules
00:25:16to beneficiaries.
00:25:17Now, SSA has taken steps to address these disincentives, but these efforts have yielded
00:25:23limited results.
00:25:25For example, SSA has conducted demonstration projects that test various changes to program
00:25:29rules designed to encourage work and reduce reliance on benefits.
00:25:34However, in 2021, the OIG reported that six of these projects had cost over $300 million,
00:25:41and none had identified potential savings or resulted in changes in legislation or policy.
00:25:48SSA has also recognized the importance of addressing overpayments.
00:25:52By using data and technology, it could adjust faster those benefits, which could prevent
00:25:57overpayments.
00:25:58For example, its performance report outlines plans to automate collection of wage data
00:26:04and modernize its IT system for tracking debt.
00:26:07But SSA has yet to fully implement three GAO recommendations in this area, including one
00:26:13priority recommendation from 2015, which involves SSA's use of data matching to prevent overpayments.
00:26:22Finally, beyond these disincentives, SSA faces longstanding workload challenges and has struggled
00:26:28to modernize its disability programs.
00:26:31SSA has efforts underway to improve hiring and retention of staff who process disability
00:26:37claims.
00:26:38It also has made efforts to update its disability eligibility criteria.
00:26:42However, it has spent hundreds of millions of dollars since 2012 working with BLS to
00:26:48update its data on occupations to reflect the modern workforce.
00:26:53But SSA is not using those BLS data.
00:26:57Instead, it continues to use data on obsolete occupations, some from the 1970s, to make
00:27:04decisions on who gets disability awards.
00:27:08In conclusion, SSA's disability programs provide a vital safety net for millions of people
00:27:15with disabilities, but beneficiaries who wish to work face significant disincentives.
00:27:21SSA's continued efforts to reduce these disincentives and modernize its programs will benefit disability
00:27:28beneficiaries and American taxpayers.
00:27:31Chairman Weiden, Ranking Member Crapo, and members of the committee, this concludes my
00:27:34prepared statement.
00:27:35Thank you.
00:27:36Thank you very much.
00:27:37And Ms. DeLager, I understand that you've been on the front lines literally for decades,
00:27:42so I can almost see a size 7 halo spotting above your head, because this is such important
00:27:49work for our country.
00:27:50So please proceed.
00:27:53Chairman Weiden, Ranking Member Crapo, and members of the committee, my name is Katherine
00:27:57DeLager.
00:27:58I'm the manager of the Wausau, Wisconsin, Social Security Administration Field Office.
00:28:02I've worked for SSA for 30 years.
00:28:05I'm here today on behalf of the National Council of Social Security Management Associations,
00:28:09NCSMA.
00:28:10Thank you for inviting me to speak with you.
00:28:12NCSMA is a professional association with over 2,400 members from field offices and teleservice
00:28:18centers throughout SSA.
00:28:20Each day, our members directly serve the American public in over 1,200 of SSA's public-facing
00:28:25offices.
00:28:26We're here today to discuss how work impacts those who receive Social Security Disability
00:28:31and Supplemental Security Income.
00:28:34In the full written testimony, I have provided detailed information about how work impacts
00:28:39benefits.
00:28:40I hope you are able to follow the information to understand how complicated it is for a
00:28:44layperson to navigate while working while on disability benefits.
00:28:48I've been doing this for 30 years, and I found it confusing to read.
00:28:52Before moving into management, I was a technical expert and was actively involved in processing
00:28:57Work Continuing Disability Reviews, CDRs, for beneficiaries.
00:29:02This is a workload I have continued processing over the last 20 years as a manager, because
00:29:06the staffing crisis in SSA necessitates that managers continue to process work while also
00:29:12maintaining offices.
00:29:14Every manager I know contributes in some way to the production work of their office.
00:29:18In my office, there are only two other staff, in addition to myself, who have even been
00:29:22trained in this area, one of our most complex workloads.
00:29:26Those employees are currently overloaded and unable to find time for the work they are
00:29:30already responsible for.
00:29:32Knowing how critical it is to address these cases in a timely manner, I squeeze in these
00:29:37reviews where I can, in addition to my management responsibilities overseeing three busy Wisconsin
00:29:42offices.
00:29:43This is not an ideal situation, but a necessary one.
00:29:47Every day, I see firsthand how working impacts those on disability benefits.
00:29:52Let me give you an example of a case I worked on recently.
00:29:54A young man with cognitive disabilities has been working with a local employer.
00:29:59He has a job coach who has helped him learn and become successful in his position.
00:30:04His mother is his representative payee.
00:30:06A representative payee is a person who is assigned to help manage funds for those who
00:30:10have been determined unable to manage their own finances.
00:30:13She has been diligent in reporting his earnings using our online portal.
00:30:17His earnings have slowly increased, and he has been working over the substantial gainful
00:30:21activity SGA limits for two years.
00:30:24On average, he's working over SGA by about $200 per month.
00:30:29He used up his trial work period many years ago.
00:30:32While developing his work CDR, I contacted his employer to determine subsidy.
00:30:36This is where we ask the employer if they pay the disabled individual more than the
00:30:40work is worth.
00:30:41We ask if the disabled person is performing at the same rate as an able-bodied person
00:30:45who has paid the same.
00:30:47If the employer indicates the productivity is at 70%, then we apply a 30% subsidy and
00:30:53only count 70% of the earnings towards the SGA limit.
00:30:56In this particular situation, the employer refused to fill out the required form, even
00:31:01after personal contact, and indicated it was against their policies to release that information.
00:31:07Now on the surface, I can make a reasonable assumption that this beneficiary may not be
00:31:11as productive as his counterparts.
00:31:12However, I cannot assume this.
00:31:14I need documented evidence.
00:31:17Without the information from the employer, this young man's benefits will be terminated
00:31:20retroactively.
00:31:21He will not only lose his current payments, but he will also be overpaid nearly two years
00:31:26of benefits.
00:31:27For those on SSI, the process is similar, only completed on a monthly basis.
00:31:32The payments for SSI fluctuate each month, depending on the earnings from two months
00:31:35prior.
00:31:37The impact of a termination letter from SSA can be devastating.
00:31:41It causes panic and distress.
00:31:43The subsequent notice of overpayment from SSA typically starts in the tens of thousands
00:31:47of dollars.
00:31:48The resources devoted to developing this case example alone has spanned over two years.
00:31:54Some of the delay has been due to the inability to devote employee resources to the needed
00:31:59development.
00:32:00Some delay is due to employee reluctance to terminate the benefits of an individual who
00:32:04obviously should have some type of subsidy applied.
00:32:07This workload takes many hours of research, review, and documentation to ensure we're
00:32:11making the right decision according to law.
00:32:14In my office, I have an average of 150 work CDRs pending at any given time that require
00:32:19many hours of development.
00:32:21SSA needs to have policies and processes in place that will distinguish the difference
00:32:25between someone who has become able to return to work in a manner that should terminate
00:32:30benefits and those who should remain entitled while working to meet their basic needs.
00:32:35Our current policies do not differentiate between these two types of workers.
00:32:38I appreciate the invitation to discuss this incredibly important topic with you today.
00:32:43NCSMA is committed to working with you to help improve our programs to meet the needs
00:32:47of the American public while also providing the stewardship of the funds that is required.
00:32:52Thank you.
00:32:53Thank you very much.
00:32:54And all of you have been excellent.
00:32:55Let me start with you, Ms. Gotland.
00:32:57You got my attention when you mentioned a $28,000 overpayment.
00:33:03And I'm sure that comes to the individual out of nowhere.
00:33:07And I gathered that this Ticket to Work program sounds fine as a concept, but in actuality,
00:33:18there are a lot of stop signs along the way to getting to work.
00:33:21And that's what I want to go over with you.
00:33:25So these individuals are trying to balance health care and food and rent.
00:33:32And then all of a sudden, they get this letter from Social Security.
00:33:36And it says, as you indicated, you owe thousands and thousands of dollars.
00:33:42This upends a person's life.
00:33:47And I'd like to know, how do they fight back in an instance like that?
00:33:53Because you've got to get through to a caseworker.
00:33:57They seem to be overworked.
00:34:01Often you have to talk to a lawyer.
00:34:03That costs too much.
00:34:06And it seems like it's going to take a lot of time, which you don't have if you're going
00:34:11to kind of extricate yourself from this kind of bureaucratic glue.
00:34:17So where do they turn?
00:34:18I mean, how do they beat this?
00:34:22Your thoughts.
00:34:25Thank you, Chairman Wyden, for that question.
00:34:29So it is a very complicated process, as we understand it, for beneficiaries to, as you
00:34:38say, fight back with the overpayments.
00:34:41And there is a waiver process that people can engage in with the agency where they apply
00:34:49if, for example, they believe that the overpayment is unfair.
00:34:56And that is-
00:34:57How long does that usually take?
00:34:59Unfortunately, I don't have that information.
00:35:02In fact, GAO has not conducted a review of that end process in several years.
00:35:09Could you get back to us and even give us some information from a handful of cases?
00:35:15Absolutely.
00:35:16I'd like to know how that works.
00:35:18Yes.
00:35:19And we get constituent calls, as do you, I'm sure, on a regular basis of people who are
00:35:24not only upset by the overpayment notice, but also overwhelmed and confused by the process.
00:35:32And it's something that GAO thinks would be beneficial for us to conduct some oversight
00:35:38and look into this process.
00:35:39So, Wyden, if you wanted to use this waiver, is that one of the things you have to go out
00:35:45and get the lawyer that you can't afford to help with?
00:35:48Yes.
00:35:49Well, it's certainly advantageous to have that kind of legal support.
00:35:54Absolutely.
00:35:56Anything else that you can offer up in terms of how they're going to find their way out?
00:36:02Because that's what the committee has to deal with.
00:36:06Absolutely.
00:36:07So, one hopeful note is this debt management system that we're hoping will assist the agency
00:36:12in tracking overpayments.
00:36:14However, right now, we think that there is an opportunity for additional oversight in
00:36:21looking at that endgame of what the agency does to correct overpayments and track them.
00:36:28And what we hear from constituents a lot is that not only are they confused about the
00:36:34process to appeal their waiver, but they're also receiving conflicting information from
00:36:39SSA, depending on who they call and who they talk to.
00:36:43So, there needs to be some additional oversight with respect to the process for negotiating
00:36:51those overpayments, the repayments, as well as appealing them.
00:36:56Okay.
00:36:57Question for you, Ms. Zuleiger.
00:36:59So, these rules are obviously complicated and practically numbing as you kind of walk
00:37:07through all of the red tape.
00:37:09But my understanding is that these rules are also very hard for Social Security employees
00:37:17to explain.
00:37:19Can you give us some insight?
00:37:21Because you're a veteran of three decades, God bless you for helping people.
00:37:27What do you do to help people through the process?
00:37:30Maybe walk us through when a person says, you know, that they're reporting that their
00:37:36wages are recorded on a record and they're trying to figure out how to deal with it.
00:37:44Thank you for the question.
00:37:46The problem seems to begin, really, when someone calls in, they are generally speaking with
00:37:53our customer service representatives or our teleservice representatives who have a very
00:37:58basic working knowledge of how the work programs and the work incentives are applied.
00:38:05Typically, they don't get to talk to the person who is actually working the cases because
00:38:11they call, say, for instance, the 800 number, and they have just very limited access to
00:38:16the information to see where a person is in the work determination and how the incentives
00:38:22may have been applied to their records.
00:38:24So, in effect, you're saying that when they make that call, they're almost starting over
00:38:31with another person.
00:38:32Yes, that's exactly correct.
00:38:35Because when they call in, if they call in a second time, they're pretty much guaranteed
00:38:39to get a different person than they spoke to the first time.
00:38:42And as Ms. Gotland mentioned, sometimes those Social Security employees can't tell either
00:38:48when they're looking at our records what incentives have been applied and where someone is in
00:38:53the process, depending on their knowledge level, their experience, and how much training
00:38:59they've had on the record.
00:39:00And these are our entry-level positions, so they don't have the extensive training that
00:39:05some of the other positions would have to be able to better explain it.
00:39:11My time is up, but if you could, and I know you've got your hands full with your duties,
00:39:19give us in writing some suggestions, particularly on something like this.
00:39:25Because you say to yourself, you know, everybody means well here.
00:39:29I mean, it's kind of like the system is sort of muscle-bound.
00:39:34In other words, it's stuck with not having somebody who really knows what a person's
00:39:42individual needs are, and they don't have the information from the earlier call.
00:39:49And if you can give us some suggestions as to how we might deal with, you know, that.
00:39:55So much, as I listen to it, reminds me of my days when I was director of the Gray Panthers
00:40:00and I also ran the legal aid office for the elderly.
00:40:03That was different, of course, than what we're talking about here.
00:40:07But nobody means badly.
00:40:09But the system is just kind of muscle-bound, and you can't get the changes that are needed
00:40:15to really do what's right for all concerns.
00:40:18So I'd like to have your suggestions on that last point.
00:40:21Senator Crapo.
00:40:22Absolutely.
00:40:23Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
00:40:24Dr. Gotland, I'd like to go to you first.
00:40:27Social Security Administration's disability programs remain on GAO's high-risk list,
00:40:34due in part to SSA's continued use of outdated occupational data to make disability decisions.
00:40:40If I heard your testimony correctly, I think you said they've already spent something like
00:40:44$100 million to study this and to update it, but they're not using that information.
00:40:50Did I hear you correctly?
00:40:53Yes, that is correct.
00:40:55I believe the amount is higher.
00:40:57It's over $250 million.
00:40:59$250 million.
00:41:02And the information is not being utilized?
00:41:05As far as we know, yes, it is not being utilized.
00:41:09So explain a little bit about why the Social Security Administration's use of this outdated
00:41:16occupational data is a contributing factor to its disability programs being on GAO's
00:41:22high-risk list.
00:41:25Thank you for that question.
00:41:27So we have, on our high-risk list, there are two main areas.
00:41:31One for SSA is managing its backlogs, and one is modernizing its eligibility criteria.
00:41:38And the eligibility criteria are absolutely essential in deciding disability awards.
00:41:46So these are make-or-break decisions for people who are needing benefits.
00:41:52The occupational data in particular are something that dates back right now to the 1990s and
00:41:59even earlier to the 1970s.
00:42:02The Washington Post article, for example, highlighted one example of a vocation that
00:42:08still continues to be used, the pneumatic tube operator.
00:42:12And we thought, oh, maybe that would be something that wasn't realistic, that didn't really
00:42:17get invoked.
00:42:18But in fact, we just identified, in preparing for this, two recent federal court cases where
00:42:25pneumatic tube operator was cited as a viable occupation for someone applying for disabilities
00:42:33and part of the basis for their denial.
00:42:37So this is something that is of grave concern to the individuals who are applying for benefits
00:42:44who are unfairly denied.
00:42:46It is also costing Social Security Administration administrative costs in processing these cases.
00:42:54And in addition, it's costing the federal courts time and resources in processing those appeals.
00:43:01Well, thank you.
00:43:02It sounds to me like if they were to actually effectively utilize the data that they have
00:43:07spent so much money to develop, that they could actually get better results in getting
00:43:13benefits to recipients and save money in the process.
00:43:18Is that correct?
00:43:19Yes, that is correct.
00:43:21Well thank you.
00:43:22And Ms. Wilski, to shift topics here for just a moment, the Social Security Administration
00:43:30recently finalized a rule that they estimate will save about a billion dollars in administrative
00:43:35costs in exchange for an additional $19.7 billion in mandatory spending for Social Security
00:43:44disability insurance benefits and supplemental security income payments on net over the next
00:43:4910 years.
00:43:51The question I have is, when the SSA is considering a policy change to one of its programs, how
00:43:57does the agency evaluate tradeoffs between the administrative savings and the increases
00:44:03in mandatory spending?
00:44:07Thank you for the question.
00:44:11I'm not familiar with the policy that you're talking about, but I think in general we do
00:44:15tend to look at how the policies would affect our beneficiaries, how the policies would
00:44:20affect our ability to implement the program, as well as the cost to the federal government.
00:44:24I'd be happy to take that back for a fuller response.
00:44:27Well thank you.
00:44:28I think you just answered this, but I just want to ask it specifically.
00:44:31Do you agree that the Social Security Administration has a stewardship responsibility to taxpayers?
00:44:39And also, how is the almost 20 to 1 ratio, I guess you said you weren't familiar with
00:44:44that specific rule, but do you believe that the Social Security Administration in adopting
00:44:50these rules needs to have a stewardship responsibility not only to recipients, but also to the taxpayers?
00:44:57Yes, that's correct.
00:44:59All right.
00:45:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:45:01Thank you.
00:45:02My colleague, Senator Grassley, is next.
00:45:04I'm going to start with Ms. Gottman.
00:45:07The Biden administration has increased spending on major disability programs by tens of billions
00:45:13of dollars, and they've done it through rulemaking.
00:45:18Throughout our federal budget, Biden has increased mandatory spending through executive actions
00:45:26by more than a trillion dollars.
00:45:31At a time of near record debt and deficit, spending of this scale by fiat is beyond reckless.
00:45:40Spending on mandatory programs and interest on the debt is now 72% of the federal budget.
00:45:47So my question, are there open GAO recommendations that the Biden administration could implement
00:45:55to reduce spending and prevent waste, fraud, and abuse in federal disability programs?
00:46:03Thank you for the question.
00:46:04Yes, there are.
00:46:06We have several open recommendations regarding overpayments in particular.
00:46:11One that I'd like to highlight relates to the overpayments that come from the dual beneficiaries
00:46:20who receive both FECA benefits and DI benefits.
00:46:27Right now, we had asked in 2015 that SSA evaluate and improve its internal controls for those
00:46:38beneficiaries who are receiving FECA benefits as well, and it evaluated options and identified
00:46:47a viable option.
00:46:48In fact, the benefits outweighed the cost five to one of this option, which was to use
00:46:54a data matching agreement with DOL to share data on those dual beneficiaries.
00:47:01As far as we know, they have been engaged in ongoing discussions but have yet to implement
00:47:06that recommendation.
00:47:08That recommendation is a priority recommendation designated so by our Comptroller General.
00:47:15And then I'd also like to point to the modernization of occupation data, which was what I just
00:47:21discussed, which is part of our high-risk series and is absolutely essential to be addressed
00:47:26for SSA to be removed from our high-risk list.
00:47:31And maybe you can submit your other things in answer in writing.
00:47:36I would be delighted to.
00:47:38Thank you.
00:47:39I'm going to go to Ms. Wilski.
00:47:42As I just mentioned, President Biden has greatly expanded the cost of SSI and SSDI while doing
00:47:51little to attempt to rein in costs.
00:47:55Both Obama and President Trump proposed billions of dollars in savings by limiting duplication
00:48:02and overlapping special disability benefits and unemployment.
00:48:08Why hasn't the Biden administration, as part of its budget request, proposed any reforms
00:48:13to generate savings in federal disability programs administered by Social Security?
00:48:23Thank you for your question.
00:48:24And I think the administration is very committed to making sure that we're administering these
00:48:27programs fairly and with respect to our budget.
00:48:33I'm happy to take that one back and get you a response for the record.
00:48:36Okay.
00:48:37Thank you very much.
00:48:38I'm going to go to Mr. Morton.
00:48:42There has been bipartisan interest in improving our disability program to better incentivize
00:48:48those that are able to return to work.
00:48:51This includes the Ticket to Work program, but also pilot programs implemented by SSA
00:48:58that test certain changes to program rules with the intent of promoting attachment to
00:49:04labor force.
00:49:05So what have we learned from these past attempts to promote work?
00:49:11Have certain types of work incentive programs worked better than others?
00:49:16Thank you for the question.
00:49:18SSA recently published a study that they commissioned that looked at its past demonstrations
00:49:28over the last 20-something years.
00:49:31And the general conclusion of that report is that while, on average, many of the tests
00:49:39that SSA conducted to promote work helped to increase levels of employment, they did
00:49:44not have substantial effects on earning average earnings or on reducing disability benefits.
00:49:52So that's kind of the bigger takeaway from SSA's demonstrations.
00:49:57And for Ms. Ziegler, just unrelated to this subject, but you manage three offices.
00:50:05What percentage of your employees come to the office five days a week?
00:50:12Five days a week.
00:50:13I believe amongst the three offices there's 40 employees, and I believe there are five
00:50:20who come in five days a week.
00:50:24And the others work from home?
00:50:26They work from home two days a week.
00:50:31Well then they come in three days a week.
00:50:33Correct.
00:50:34Okay.
00:50:35Yes.
00:50:36Thank you.
00:50:37Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:50:38Thank you, Senator Grassley.
00:50:39Senator Blackburn.
00:50:40Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:50:41Just following up on what Senator Grassley said, it is terribly frustrating to us that
00:50:46so many in the federal workforce are still working remote and doing it because of the
00:50:54COVID restrictions, and we have such terrible backlogs.
00:51:00When you look at SSA, when you look at the VA, when you look at these different agencies,
00:51:07people cannot get answers.
00:51:09There are backlogs of cases, and it continues to be frustrating to the people that we represent.
00:51:18Commissioner Wilshie, I want to come to you with my questions because in Tennessee, we
00:51:26hear a lot about workforce and the unemployment numbers, the labor force participation rate,
00:51:34and the effects COVID has had on this.
00:51:38And everyone in Tennessee seems to have a workforce shortage.
00:51:41We know there are individuals that are on SSDI who would like to return to work.
00:51:49That was to be the purpose of the Ticket to Work program.
00:51:53So as we look at this and we look at constraints, what do we need to do and what more do you
00:52:03all need to do to be certain that people who are on SSDI can work but not be jeopardizing
00:52:14those benefits because they're wanting to go back to work.
00:52:18But what they will say, and I'm in every county, each of the 95 counties in Tennessee, I'm
00:52:25there every year, and we hear this, there are people that want to work, but what if
00:52:32they go to work, what if they end up losing their benefits, what if they end up in a mess?
00:52:38This means there is confusion and there is a lack of consistency coming out of that program.
00:52:45So do we need to do something more?
00:52:47Do you all need to do something more?
00:52:52Thank you for your question, Senator.
00:52:54As you've heard today, I think the complexity of our work incentives can really actually
00:52:58be a deterrent to getting people to work.
00:53:01So I think that simplifying that is certainly one step.
00:53:05Additionally, I think the more we can do to inform people really about how these work
00:53:10incentives work and the effect of work on their benefits, that will sort of dispel some
00:53:15of the fears people have around going back to work.
00:53:18Okay, so how do you do that?
00:53:21So you're defining the problem.
00:53:24But then how do you translate that to recipients and enrollees so they know they're not going
00:53:32to jeopardize their benefits if they get in the workforce?
00:53:36Because that's what they would like, is to be back in the workforce.
00:53:41Thank you for the clarification there.
00:53:44We do fund work incentive planning and assistance organizations that provide benefits counseling
00:53:49and they explain the rules to beneficiaries and particularly around work, how it's going
00:53:54to affect their benefits.
00:53:55How quickly can people get to those caseworkers and get that clarification?
00:54:01We have a call center.
00:54:03They can get that.
00:54:04I will say that we have very limited funding.
00:54:06That funding, it's been set since 1999 and it has not increased.
00:54:11So I think if we had additional funding for that, we would really be able to-
00:54:13So does it take them a day, a week, a month?
00:54:17It can usually happen pretty quickly.
00:54:18I'd say within a week if they call, they can get referred over.
00:54:22And the last thing I would say is that we do need sufficient funding and staffing to
00:54:27be able to process those wage reports when we get them in the field offices.
00:54:30Okay, let me ask you this.
00:54:32If people showed back up to work in person, would that help you to pick up the pace a
00:54:36little bit?
00:54:38I think it's really a matter of having the right number of people rather than where they
00:54:42are.
00:54:43The right number of people who are actually working 40 hours a week?
00:54:47I think they're working 40 hours a week, whether they're working remotely or in the field offices.
00:54:52You think so?
00:54:53I do.
00:54:54Okay.
00:54:55Do you think so?
00:54:56Yes, I do think so.
00:54:59And we believe that telework should be implemented where it makes sense as long as flexibility
00:55:06is given to individual offices to use it only where it makes sense and to be able to not
00:55:13use it if it is not working.
00:55:15Because on the front lines, we do run into problems where there will not be enough workers
00:55:21in the office to serve our walk-in traffic, and we do have to recall teleworkers.
00:55:25And we do do that regularly where needed.
00:55:28As long as we have those flexibilities, I do believe that those who are working on telework
00:55:32are working to their full capabilities.
00:55:35Okay.
00:55:36Thank you.
00:55:37Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:55:38I want to thank my colleague because of the kind relations between our two colleagues.
00:55:44Senator Casey will be next, and he is a sponsor of two of the bipartisan bills and also the
00:55:49champion of ABLE accounts, which is extraordinarily important to folks.
00:55:53And, Senator Casey, go ahead.
00:55:55Mr. Chairman, thanks very much.
00:55:56I want to thank our witnesses for being here, and thank Senator Whitehouse for letting me
00:56:00jump ahead.
00:56:01It doesn't happen every day around here.
00:56:05I wanted to start with a question that I will, I think, initially direct to Ms. Wilski
00:56:11and Mr. Morton.
00:56:14One of the disincentives for recipients of SSI to work are asset limits, of course.
00:56:21The $2,000 asset limit today has a purchasing power of only $630, and it is a barrier that
00:56:29keeps people who want to work and save out of the labor market.
00:56:33I passed in 2014 the ABLE Act, and this was one way to ensure that SSI recipients can
00:56:41save for the future or prepare for emergencies without risking benefits.
00:56:47It allows an SSI recipient to save up to $100,000 in assets, making it possible to buy a house
00:56:54or an accessible vehicle or even to go to college.
00:56:58As of this March, about 171,000 of the over 4 million SSI recipients have opened an ABLE
00:57:06account and invested almost $2 billion.
00:57:10171,000 is a big number, but it is only about 4 percent of the current SSI recipients.
00:57:18There are many policies we need to update to tear down the barriers to employment for
00:57:23people with disabilities, but we have a policy right now that can address the SSI asset limit
00:57:29that is being, of course, by virtue of those numbers I just recited, underutilized.
00:57:35So I'll start with maybe Mr. Morton and then Ms. Wilski.
00:57:40What can SSA do to increase awareness of and participation in ABLE accounts to address
00:57:49the asset limit problem currently?
00:57:53So with respect to ABLE accounts for SSI recipients and other disability beneficiaries, SSA does
00:57:59provide information on its website.
00:58:02It has helped to sponsor certain events.
00:58:05It's presented co-presentations with groups that advocate on behalf for ABLE accounts.
00:58:14But it is one, I mean, if you want to call it an incentive or a feature for SSI recipients
00:58:20who want to work, it's one of many in conveying all the entire set of work incentives to recipients
00:58:28can be difficult.
00:58:29And I think that is something SSA has wrestled with over the years and continues to do so.
00:58:34And it is challenging.
00:58:35So potentially, you know, increased efforts at awareness, you know, would probably potentially
00:58:43help boost enrollment in ABLE accounts among SSI recipients.
00:58:48And as of January of this year, there were about 80,000 SSI recipients who had an ABLE
00:58:53account.
00:58:55And Ms. Wilski?
00:58:59Thank you for the question.
00:59:00And I agree that ABLE accounts are really an important savings tool for people with
00:59:03disabilities.
00:59:05And I would agree with my colleague here that while it's not one of our programs, SSA does
00:59:11do a lot to make people aware of it through our websites, our publications.
00:59:16We partner with external organizations.
00:59:19And I'll mention that we are also embarking on a research project with some external organizations
00:59:25to look at ways to promote the take-up of ABLE accounts.
00:59:29Well, I hope we can do a lot more because I don't think it's nearly enough.
00:59:34And I wanted to turn to Ms. Zulliger.
00:59:37You've been on the ground working with beneficiaries.
00:59:38Can SSA managers and field office personnel help increase awareness of and participation
00:59:45in ABLE accounts?
00:59:47Absolutely.
00:59:48With correct funding and resources, we can definitely do that.
00:59:53Thanks very much.
00:59:54I'll turn next to Dr. Gotland.
01:00:00The rate of the disability labor force participation has been increasing over the past five years.
01:00:07Although they're still well below that of the non-disabled workforce.
01:00:12The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the May labor force participation rate for
01:00:17people with disabilities was 41.7 percent, close to an all-time high.
01:00:23Looking back 10 years, that participation rate has increased by over 30 percent.
01:00:29However, the demonstration projects designed to incentivize employment among SSI and SSDI
01:00:37recipients show only small increases in employment.
01:00:41And the major program to encourage employment, the so-called Ticket to Work program, has
01:00:47a very low participation rate.
01:00:51Most people with disabilities report that they want to work, of course.
01:00:55They also need to ensure that they have the health care and long-term care support that
01:01:01they need.
01:01:02Dr. Gotland, I wanted to ask you, what policies should be implemented to retain the increases
01:01:08in disability employment we've recently seen, and to even further increase the labor force
01:01:14participation rate for people with disabilities?
01:01:20Thank you for that question.
01:01:22So this very much dovetails with your last question, actually.
01:01:27And also with the overarching theme of complexity that we're discussing today.
01:01:33And that is, not only are the work incentives complex within SSA, we have a complex system
01:01:40at the federal level.
01:01:42So an overarching policy recommendation is to make it easier for people with disabilities
01:01:51to access supports.
01:01:54And our prior work has identified 40 programs across nine federal agencies that support
01:02:01people with disabilities.
01:02:03And there's limited coordination between those programs.
01:02:07So we have a recommendation, an outstanding priority recommendation to OMB, to establish
01:02:12goals for national employment for people with disabilities.
01:02:16And we think that that could spur coordination across these programs, and make them potentially
01:02:22easier to navigate, and provide higher visibility for programs such as yours, such as the ABLE
01:02:29grants, also the underutilized student earned income exclusion.
01:02:34That's one option.
01:02:36Another is early intervention.
01:02:39We have not done recent work on the demonstration projects, however, we've reviewed recent literature.
01:02:45And a lot of what is coming out of that literature is really indicating that the best time to
01:02:51target an individual is before they get on the rolls.
01:02:56Thank you.
01:02:57Thanks very much.
01:02:58Thank you.
01:03:00We've got the bipartisan brigade on the next round.
01:03:03Senator Brown.
01:03:04Thank you for your leadership.
01:03:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:03:06I appreciate Senator Casey's question and comments.
01:03:10Social Security disability insurance and supplemental security income are critical parts of our
01:03:16Social Security system.
01:03:17I think all four of you agree with that, I think everybody around this panel does, providing
01:03:20a lifeline to beneficiaries who rely on them.
01:03:23But the rules for these programs surely should not create barriers for people with disabilities
01:03:28to live and work with dignity.
01:03:32Outdated eligibility rules punish Americans for working, saving, even getting married.
01:03:37We build a broad bipartisan coalition to change that.
01:03:41There's now bipartisan agreement that we should remove these barriers and update the rules.
01:03:46My bipartisan bill with Senator Cassidy, the SSI Savings Penalty Elimination Act increases
01:03:51the asset limit for the first time in 40 years.
01:03:54I was speaking with Senator Harkin the other day, who was part of that 40 years ago, and
01:03:59he is a bit incredulous it hasn't been changed.
01:04:01It removes the asset limits marriage penalty.
01:04:04Senators Wyden and Casey and Hassett and Whitehouse and Lankford are members of this committee
01:04:09and are co-sponsors.
01:04:11Everyone from disability advocates to the CEOs of the nation's largest banks, interestingly
01:04:16enough, support it.
01:04:18Ms. Welschke, I'll start with you.
01:04:20When Commissioner O'Malley was here earlier this year, I asked him about this rule.
01:04:24These rules and efficiency, they're expensive for SSA to administer accurately.
01:04:29They're not a good use, surely, of taxpayer dollars.
01:04:32To quote the commissioner referring to SSI, quote, we spend $10 to save a nickel.
01:04:37Of course, it makes no sense.
01:04:38He said SSI is less than 5% of the agency's budget, but administering the rules eats up
01:04:4535% of the resources.
01:04:48I assume that doesn't sound right to you, Ms. Welschke.
01:04:53I think that's an accurate statement, but it certainly reflects the complexity of administering
01:04:57the program.
01:04:58SSA has identified the asset limit as the number one cause of overpayments.
01:05:04Is that correct, Ms. Welschke?
01:05:06That's correct.
01:05:07Having assets above that limit is the number one cause in the SSI program.
01:05:11Ms. Zolicher, you represent Social Security managers.
01:05:15Based on your experience, has it been your experience in administering this asset limit
01:05:21takes up a lot of staff time?
01:05:23Yes, it does take up an extraordinary amount of staff time.
01:05:27We've heard so much in the last year about Social Security overpayments.
01:05:30I can say confidently there's bipartisan interest in preventing overpayments before they happen.
01:05:37This is just one of the many reasons why updating these outdated rules is important for beneficiaries
01:05:42and for taxpayers.
01:05:44Mr. Morton, am I correct that the asset limit doesn't just apply to savings in a traditional
01:05:49bank account?
01:05:50It can also be triggered by other assets like a 401k retirement plan?
01:05:56Correct.
01:05:59Forms of retirement savings, if they can't be converted into a periodic payment, count
01:06:02against the resource or asset limit.
01:06:05I've heard from employers that some of their workers have actually turned down their company
01:06:09401k plans because it puts their SSI eligibility at risk.
01:06:14That doesn't make sense either.
01:06:16Mr. Chairman, thank you for calling this hearing.
01:06:18It's clear we have a lot of challenges to address when it comes to barriers to work.
01:06:22I think we all agree on the importance of that.
01:06:26We've already identified one of the solutions.
01:06:27It's raising SSI's asset limits, passing the Cassidy-Brown-Brown-Cassidy bill.
01:06:33Bipartisan experts have called the asset limit the most regressive anti-savings provision
01:06:38in federal law.
01:06:39Strong bipartisan agreement to raise the asset limits.
01:06:42I look forward to working with you and Senator Cassidy, Senator Crapo, Senator Lankford on
01:06:46fixing this.
01:06:48Thank you, Senator Brown.
01:06:49And I'm very appreciative of the bipartisan work that you and Senator Cassidy have been
01:06:53doing.
01:06:54I remember a rally that was held months ago, and it's time to get action on this.
01:06:58Thank you for your leadership.
01:06:59Senator Cassidy will be next, followed by Senator Whitehouse.
01:07:01Thank you very much.
01:07:02Let's see.
01:07:03Who should I go to?
01:07:04Ms. Wolski.
01:07:05Did I pronounce that correctly?
01:07:06Yeah.
01:07:07I had an interesting conversation with a woman I went to high school with.
01:07:16Her son has been disabled from schizophrenia since he was 23.
01:07:24That's significant because apparently you can't get your parents' Social Security upon
01:07:28their death unless you're diagnosed with your disability 22 or younger.
01:07:34Now I'm struck that under the Affordable Care Act, we've extended, and that was actually
01:07:37a Republican proposal that they incorporated, about the only good thing about the Affordable
01:07:40Care Act, that if you're on, you can stay on your parents' insurance until you get to
01:07:44age 26.
01:07:46So we kind of acknowledge that there is an extension of a youth's kind of dependence
01:07:51upon a parent.
01:07:53But if you are diagnosed with your permanent disability at age 23, you don't qualify to
01:07:59get the parents' help, which means that you've not lived long enough to get your quarters
01:08:05to Social Security to get your own money, but you don't qualify for your parents' either
01:08:10because you qualified after 22.
01:08:14Now that's kind of a long introduction, but you spoke about severely disabled children.
01:08:26Any thoughts about what I just proposed and any potential solutions?
01:08:32Thank you for the question.
01:08:33And can you pull that microphone a little bit closer to you, please?
01:08:36Sure.
01:08:37Thank you for the question.
01:08:38You know, you raise a very complex situation that families deal with in addressing disabilities
01:08:45among their children, and I think you're correct that age 22, that in order to qualify for
01:08:50benefits on a parent's record, you have to have that, you have to show that you had that
01:08:55disability prior to age 22.
01:08:58That isn't the statute, so I think that is something we would be willing to work with
01:09:01you with and try technical assistance on any changes.
01:09:03Yeah, and I'm struck, at 22, most people will not have their 40 quarters.
01:09:09I'm thinking that's right.
01:09:11That would be correct.
01:09:12However, I think young people really need less than 40 quarters to cover coverage.
01:09:16Say that a little bit louder?
01:09:17Young people who are working can qualify for, can be insured for disability benefits with
01:09:22less than 40 quarters of coverage.
01:09:23Got it.
01:09:24Got it.
01:09:25Okay.
01:09:26That's good.
01:09:27Thank you.
01:09:28Now, I think this has been asked before, but I have a little bit of pride of ownership,
01:09:31so I'll do it again.
01:09:32This is important.
01:09:33I'm a little frustrated.
01:09:35Secretary O'Malley recently said he put the brakes on updating the Dictionary of Occupational
01:09:39Titles, and I think someone's addressed this, but again, I'd like to go back over it.
01:09:43And I'm told that the Social Security Administration has spent at least $250 million modernizing
01:09:50the dictionary, but it's not being implemented, meaning that someone may not get SSI, SSA,
01:09:57or SSDI benefits because SAA says they could be an elevator operator.
01:10:01Well, not many elevator operators left around for someone to be.
01:10:05So Senator Brown and I introduced the Improvement Employment Opportunities for DI Beneficiaries
01:10:10Act, requiring the updated vocational list to be made every three years.
01:10:16That would capture new jobs in the technology space and eliminate obsolete jobs.
01:10:21Can you talk about how SSA's outdated vocational dictionary negatively impacts beneficiaries'
01:10:28ability to either stay in the workforce or get their SSDI benefits?
01:10:33Sure.
01:10:34So SSA's reliance on the Dictionary of Occupational Titles, which was last updated in 1991, has
01:10:41certain job categories that are no longer particularly prevalent in today's workforce.
01:10:45And so this can affect people in different ways.
01:10:48So someone may, using the older jobs data, be determined that they cannot perform certain
01:10:54older jobs that no longer exist, so they may be denied benefits.
01:10:58While other people may be said, well, yes, you can't do these older jobs when they could
01:11:02actually do maybe some more newer jobs that exist in the current economy.
01:11:06So they may be awarded benefits when they could actually potentially do other jobs.
01:11:10So there are different effects.
01:11:12People may be denied because of the older data, or they may be granted benefits because
01:11:16of the older data.
01:11:17And using newer data may sort of flip that around and would presumably improve the accuracy
01:11:25of the determinations that SSA performs.
01:11:27I recently met a man who is a quadriplegic, and he actually has a job as a data processor,
01:11:34an intelligence analyst, if you will, a data processor, which he would not have had that
01:11:40job before, but he's gainfully employed doing really good work as a quadriplegic.
01:11:45So I think that illustrates what you just said.
01:11:48Now I did, and you may or may not want to comment on this, but I read an interesting
01:11:52editorial on this, and it said the Social Security Administration's culture is about
01:11:56processing applications, not about promoting data quality.
01:12:03And in fact, if the courts and political leaders allow SSA to continue to use the outmoded
01:12:09dictionary of occupational titles in making disability payments, then they will just follow
01:12:13the path of least resistance.
01:12:16Do you agree with that?
01:12:18I think what I can speak to is that every year I check SSA's budget justification, all
01:12:22of its documents, to see what is happening with this new jobs data that it's, and pretty
01:12:28much every year, there's really no new data, like we worked with BLS, here's what we did,
01:12:32but there's nothing about what are we going to do next.
01:12:35So I, CRS awaits, you know, to hear from SSA what are they going to do next.
01:12:39Okay, I yield.
01:12:41Thank you.
01:12:42Thank you, Senator Cassidy, and I very much look forward to going to another Brown Cassidy
01:12:48press conference, where particularly your good work in terms of increasing the assets
01:12:53so you can go to work without losing your benefits, that's essentially what we need,
01:12:57and I think you and Senator Brown have summed it up very well.
01:13:00Look forward to working with you.
01:13:02Okay, next is Senator Whitehouse.
01:13:04Thanks Chairman.
01:13:05I'd like to lead into my questions with a quick Rhode Island story about a constituent
01:13:15and the challenges that his daughter faced.
01:13:21For their privacy's sake, we'll just call the daughter Mary.
01:13:26She had worked for 31 years at her local stop and shop, bagging groceries.
01:13:36She's a fixture at the store, she knows everybody who comes in, people love her, she's a valued
01:13:40member of the team.
01:13:42She also has a severe learning disability due to lack of oxygen as a baby, and she relies
01:13:49on payments from Social Security.
01:13:53In March of 2022, she received notice that her benefits were cut off and that she'd have
01:14:00to repay $17,000.
01:14:06You'll remember that that was a time when people were having trouble coming to work
01:14:12and staff were missing shifts or calling in sick, and there was Mary always eager to help,
01:14:21to pick up some extra hours to help the team through, and because of that, she inadvertently
01:14:27went over her maximum allowable level with no notion that that had happened.
01:14:34The first she knew about hitting the income limit was the letter that told her she owed
01:14:39$17,000 and her benefits would stop.
01:14:42You can just imagine what that felt like in that family.
01:14:45Luckily, her parents were there to help her navigate the appeals process, but not everybody
01:14:50has parents available to do that.
01:14:53It took two years to get this battle resolved, and ultimately, Social Security deemed that
01:15:02Mary was not overpaid, and she received ultimately a reimbursement of nearly $23,000, having
01:15:10gone through all this hell and nonsense.
01:15:15So she was frightened enough, and the whole thing was such an unpleasant experience that
01:15:20she's actually reduced her hours, just to steer well clear of having to go through this
01:15:25ever again, which I don't think is the behavior we want to encourage of people in Mary's situation.
01:15:32So, you know, I have this lived experience of a constituent who frankly really got screwed
01:15:38by the system here, and we see it not only with Social Security disability benefits,
01:15:46but we see it with a lot of benefits, where you're going along fine, and suddenly there's
01:15:51a cliff, and the cliff is very, very steep, and very, very dramatic in its effects, and
01:16:00I'd love to have each of your thoughts, perhaps as a question for the record, so you have
01:16:05a time to sit down and think about it, and write something, about whether we should be
01:16:11considering a more broad solution to the cliff's problem, that allows, for instance, senior
01:16:20cabinet officials to take a look at a terrible cliff, and work around it, just in the interest
01:16:26of humanity and good common sense, what guardrails should be set up around that process, should
01:16:33it be under the APA as part of a rulemaking, so that people have a chance to provide appropriate
01:16:40notice and comment, but over and over and over again, I see people innocently slamming
01:16:44into the cliff's problem, and unintended and unfair damage being created in their lives.
01:16:54And I'd also, I guess Ms. Zulegar, if you wouldn't mind commenting on, she didn't appear
01:17:02to have hit the asset limit problem, although that's a pretty easy one to hit, at $2,000,
01:17:12even a clunker gets you over $2,000, I'm a supporter of Senator Brown and Cassidy's
01:17:21hike of that to $10,000 for individuals and $20,000 for married couples, but I assume
01:17:28that you would see that as a similar problem that we should also try to find a solution
01:17:33for.
01:17:35Thank you for the question.
01:17:36Your example very similarly matches my testimony and the example that I gave in that testimony,
01:17:43and it does sound like, without having the details, that individual is probably on SSDI,
01:17:49where the cliff exists, because SSI doesn't have that same cliff drop-off that we could
01:17:54term it.
01:17:55Yeah, it was SSDI.
01:17:57So that, I do believe that there should be some considerations there, and it sounds very
01:18:04much like the example that I gave in my testimony as well.
01:18:08And should we treat the asset limit similarly?
01:18:10So the asset limit doesn't exist for the SSDI, it's the earnings, and how those earnings
01:18:15are treated, and just on the surface, it does sound like that individual probably had
01:18:20some subsidies involved from that employer, and I hope that that's what, once those subsidies
01:18:26were developed, that may be why it was determined that she was eligible in the end.
01:18:31The example that I gave did indicate that sometimes we have a very hard time getting
01:18:35proof of subsidies from employers, and we can't make assumptions.
01:18:40We have to have the proof, because we don't have any sort of medical background, and so
01:18:45we have to have proof from employers that subsidies exist.
01:18:49Thank you, Chairman.
01:18:50Made no sense.
01:18:51Did nothing but harm to have Mary thrown off the program.
01:18:54I applaud your efforts to bring a common-sense solution so that kind of really cruel stupidity
01:19:00doesn't happen so often.
01:19:02Well, thank you, Senator Whitehouse, and put me down, Senator Whitehouse, as your first
01:19:07volunteer to be part of this effort to look at the cliffs.
01:19:10I mean, this cliff's issue, even by Washington, D.C. standards, is bizarre, and I just look
01:19:17forward to working with you, and I just told the finance staff we're all in to proceed
01:19:22in a thoughtful way, and nobody's looked at it.
01:19:25Senator Warren.
01:19:26Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:19:27So in 1972, Congress established the Social Security Income, or SSI, so that people with
01:19:34disabilities could live in dignity and be somewhat self-supporting by getting a monthly
01:19:40cash payment, and it's now a critical lifeline for about 8 million Americans, but the problem
01:19:47is that these outdated rules have stranded about 4 out of every 10 people who receive
01:19:52it in poverty and unable to work.
01:19:56So I want to walk through an example, just to make sure we're in on the numbers.
01:20:01Young woman living with disability who receives the average SSI payment, which is about $698
01:20:08a month last year, well below the poverty line, so she picks up a remote minimum wage
01:20:14graphic design job for 8 hours a week, allowing her to take home another $232 a month, still
01:20:22leaving her well below the poverty line.
01:20:25Ms. Wilshke, you're an associate commissioner at the Social Security Administration.
01:20:29Say that SSA sees that this woman is earning $232 from her job each month on top of her
01:20:37SSI benefits under current law.
01:20:40Can she keep the $232?
01:20:44Thank you for the question.
01:20:46She would keep part of it, but her benefit would be reduced.
01:20:50How much?
01:20:52She can keep the first $85 and half of the rest.
01:20:55So she gets $85 is the amount she can keep from her work, and after that, for every $2
01:21:03she earns, what happens to her Social Security benefits?
01:21:06It would go down by a dollar.
01:21:07They go down by a dollar.
01:21:09You know, and then it gets worse.
01:21:12We've talked about another part of this, Cliff.
01:21:14Say she works for a few hours each week, she manages to put a little money aside, she wants
01:21:18to put down a deposit to try to get an apartment.
01:21:22And between her savings and SSI and her job, she manages to save just a little over $2,000.
01:21:29Now when SSA sees that she has over $2,000, just walk us through.
01:21:35What happens, Ms. Wilshke?
01:21:38Generally speaking, if she has liquid resources above the asset limit, she would not be eligible
01:21:42at least for that month.
01:21:43So she loses all of her benefits at that point.
01:21:46So she's done at that point.
01:21:49So SSI rules mean that this young woman can't afford to save for an apartment, she can't
01:21:55take a part-time job without jeopardizing her benefits, and having to continuously tow
01:22:01the monetary line here in order to keep her existing payments I think is a minefield,
01:22:08as Senator Whitehouse has just pointed out, especially for an individual with a disability.
01:22:13So it's not just hard for SSI recipients, which we've been talking about, I want to
01:22:18talk about what it does for SSA.
01:22:21Associate Commissioner Wilshke, how does the complexity of SSI's eligibility rules impact
01:22:28the Social Security Administration and your administrative costs?
01:22:35Thank you for the question.
01:22:36Yes, SSI is complex for us to administer.
01:22:40And so while SSI payments only make up about four or five percent of our benefit outlays,
01:22:47it does make up about a third of our administrative budget.
01:22:49So you're spending a third of your budget to track down people who now have $2,010 in
01:22:59total assets, or who have made $100 more than the $85 that they were entitled to earn without
01:23:07triggering this.
01:23:08You know, SSI is supposed to keep Americans with disabilities out of poverty, but it offers
01:23:14below poverty level support, it punishes people for working, and it punishes recipients
01:23:23for savings, all while the Social Security Administration is spending big dollars in
01:23:30order to administer this system.
01:23:33So I think we've all been talking about the importance of making changes here.
01:23:37I'm working with Senator Brown and others on this committee to pass the SSI Restoration
01:23:43Act, which would raise the benefit rate and help fix these outdated rules.
01:23:48I'm glad to see that there's bipartisan support for raising the asset limits so that SSI beneficiaries
01:23:56can save more than a few pennies without fear of losing their benefits, and so that the
01:24:03Social Security Administration can just spend less time administering all of this.
01:24:09Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:24:10I thank my colleague.
01:24:12Here's where we are.
01:24:13We're going to have a vote in a few minutes, but we are going to get every member who wants
01:24:19to be heard on this issue because it's so important.
01:24:22Senator Cortez-Masdow will be next, then Senator Cantwell, and let the word go out to everybody
01:24:29on both sides that we're here, but we're going to have to get everybody in before the vote
01:24:35is over.
01:24:36Senator Cortez-Masdow.
01:24:37Thank you, Chairman.
01:24:39Ms. Wilski, let me talk to you about some of our tribal challenges that I hear from
01:24:44some of our members in Nevada.
01:24:46The tribes in Nevada and across this country have established programs to help elders and
01:24:50disabled individuals remain on the reservation and in their homes, offering support such
01:24:55as housing assistance.
01:24:57Unfortunately, the Social Security Administration has reduced supplemental security income for
01:25:01these individuals by counting tribal welfare assistance as income.
01:25:07I am working to reintroduce a bill that would ensure tribal general welfare benefits are
01:25:12not unfairly categorized as income affecting supplemental social income eligibility or
01:25:19benefits.
01:25:20I think our tribal communities deserve fair access to SSI, so my question to you is would
01:25:25clarifying the tribal general welfare benefits help the SSA better support our tribal members'
01:25:33access to their full SSI benefit?
01:25:37Thank you for the question.
01:25:38I'm actually not familiar with the details of the tribal policies and how those benefits
01:25:43are counted, but I'd be happy to take that back and we can get you a fuller response
01:25:47on that.
01:25:48Please do, because it is something that, again, and I am all about addressing the cliffs because
01:25:52there's definitely concern here, but quite often our tribes are left behind on so many
01:25:58levels, and this is one area working with them.
01:26:00I want to make sure that they have access, full access as well, so I look forward to
01:26:05working with you.
01:26:06I don't know if anybody else on the panel has experience with this.
01:26:08Happy to help or hear from you as well.
01:26:10Yes.
01:26:11Thank you for the question.
01:26:12In our area, we actually do serve many tribes, and there is this problem that exists, and
01:26:18I do think that clarification would help in this area.
01:26:22Thank you.
01:26:23I appreciate that.
01:26:24Let me ask Mr. Gotland, the fear of losing Medicare or Medicaid benefits presents a significant
01:26:32barrier to employment for disability beneficiaries, undermining efforts to increase workforce
01:26:38participation and, quite honestly, economic independence.
01:26:41GAO's 2021 report on Ticket to Work examined the impact that the concern of losing medical
01:26:48benefits has on employment.
01:26:50Can you expand on some of the key findings and implications of that report and information
01:26:53that we should be aware of?
01:26:56Absolutely.
01:26:58I think that question was directed to me.
01:27:00Yes.
01:27:01I'm sorry.
01:27:02Yes.
01:27:03Okay.
01:27:04Yes.
01:27:05In fact, the Ticket to Work program, we conducted a large cost-benefit evaluation of this program
01:27:10from 2002 to 2015.
01:27:15We were constrained by the data.
01:27:16That was the most recent available data, and what we found was that the estimated costs
01:27:22exceeded the benefits by about $806 million over that period, and that there were net
01:27:30losses to the program every year over that time horizon.
01:27:36We also found that about 5% of participants over the course of those years of eligible
01:27:44beneficiaries participated in the program, 5% of eligible beneficiaries participated.
01:27:51At the participant level, we found modest results, so participants' average earnings
01:27:58were about, we estimated, $2,451 more per year than similar non-participants five years
01:28:07after participating in the program, and approximately 5.1% of participants left the roles after
01:28:16five years of starting the program compared with 2.4% of similar non-participants.
01:28:23So based on your analysis, what do we need to know in Congress?
01:28:28What should we, in response to that, what should be our action?
01:28:31Yes.
01:28:32Okay.
01:28:33So the bottom line, both with the Ticket program as well as these most recent demonstrations,
01:28:38is that individuals don't want to lose their benefits.
01:28:44They will work right up to the point where they don't lose their benefits.
01:28:49And what we see from the demonstrations and the research around that, which GAO did not
01:28:53conduct, I should say, this is based on literature, is that some of these demonstrations actually
01:29:00did increase employment, workforce participation, earnings, but none of them resulted in savings.
01:29:08None of them resulted in people getting off the roles.
01:29:12Interesting.
01:29:13Thank you.
01:29:14I appreciate it.
01:29:15And thank you for the panelists being here.
01:29:16I appreciate your insight as well.
01:29:18I thank my colleague from Nevada, and let me say, Ms. Wilski, I'm also a co-sponsor
01:29:25of my colleague's very important bill, and I think we're going to need to get your response
01:29:31to her legislation, which she asked you for, soon.
01:29:35So can we say two weeks, we'll have a response from you all?
01:29:37Yes.
01:29:38Very good.
01:29:39I thank my colleague.
01:29:40Senator Cantwell.
01:29:42Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:29:43I wanted to ask Mr. Morton, under the current law, supplemental security income beneficiaries
01:29:47cannot have more than $2,000 in declared assets in order to maintain their SSI.
01:29:53Married couples can have only $3,000, so they must limit that eligibility.
01:30:01This limit has not changed since 1983, and it's not been adjusted for inflation.
01:30:08So I think it's an incredibly low threshold.
01:30:12I have constituents who have told me that they have been forced to spend down their
01:30:14assets or decline a pay raise in order to meet the eligibility.
01:30:18In addition, people with disabilities who want to get married often choose not to because
01:30:23they can have $4,000 in a total asset as unmarried partners compared to just the $3,000 as a
01:30:29married couple.
01:30:30So I think it's a disincentive.
01:30:34These policies haven't been changed.
01:30:36Do you agree that the current asset limitation is too low and outdated for where we are today?
01:30:42So the current SSI asset limits, both for individuals and for married couples, they
01:30:49were last changed in law in the late 80s, or sorry, the early 1980s, and have been in
01:30:53place since 1989.
01:30:55There are a number of proposals in the current Congress to raise those asset limits.
01:30:59In addition, some proposals would equalize or sort of double the amount for married couples
01:31:05relative to single individuals.
01:31:07And this is sometimes described as, the current law treatment is sometimes described as a
01:31:12marriage penalty, and so this would potentially address that issue by doubling the amount
01:31:16of assets that married couples could have relative to single individuals.
01:31:19Is that what you think we should do, double the number?
01:31:23While CRS does not provide recommendations, that is something that a number of members
01:31:26of Congress have expressed interest in.
01:31:29Do you think we should increase the limit based on today's cost of living?
01:31:35That is another proposal.
01:31:36So not only to sort of raise these limits, because they've been in place since the late
01:31:421980s, but then also index them to inflation by the same cost of living adjustment that
01:31:47applies to Social Security benefits.
01:31:49Okay.
01:31:50Okay.
01:31:51Ms. Wilski, is that, am I saying that correctly?
01:31:58The Social Security Administration has tested several demonstration programs to promote
01:32:02work incentives with the goal of increasing disability beneficiaries.
01:32:07One of these programs is promoting opportunity demonstration that was created in the Bipartisan
01:32:12Budget Act of 2015.
01:32:15For every $2 a beneficiary earned above the threshold, their benefits were reduced by
01:32:20$1.
01:32:21After a three-year demonstration concluded that there was no discernible difference in
01:32:25average earnings and disabilities.
01:32:27Could you please explain this demonstration program and what was not able to be achieved
01:32:33and what is different from where we are today?
01:32:36Thank you for the question.
01:32:38The promoting opportunity demonstration was really addressing the issue of the cash cliff
01:32:42that's been discussed here, where people could lose all of their benefits if they work above
01:32:47certain thresholds.
01:32:48So by allowing people to maintain part of their benefits while they were working and
01:32:53kind of gradually reduce their benefits as their income, as their earnings increased,
01:32:58the hope was that we would see more people increasing their earnings and returning and
01:33:02leaving the roles.
01:33:04As it's been cited, I think while we've seen some increase in earnings, we really did not
01:33:07see those really large changes.
01:33:11And we also saw that benefits, the cost to the government, the benefits increased.
01:33:17So what do you think we should do?
01:33:21I think it's a challenging situation.
01:33:23One thing we know is that when we ask our beneficiaries why they're not working, the
01:33:27number one reason that they give us is their health.
01:33:30So I think it is something we need to keep in mind of how we can kind of support people
01:33:34who may be able to work part-time or may be able to do some work without being able to
01:33:39completely leave the roles.
01:33:41And so you don't think this demonstrated some information about the actual numbers or the
01:33:49benefits and the work experience.
01:33:52You're saying look at something that's more part-time is what you're saying.
01:33:56Come up with a formula that fits more part-time work.
01:34:00Thank you for the question.
01:34:01I think the Promoting Opportunity Demonstration has some positive results, but it really did
01:34:05not lead to the number of people leaving the roles that some people may have expected.
01:34:10And where would you go from here is my point.
01:34:13We'd be happy to work with you on coming up with ideas.
01:34:17Okay, anybody else on this point?
01:34:20Nope.
01:34:21Well, look, Mr. Chairman, I think this is an important aspect of what we're trying to
01:34:26do.
01:34:27We have great programs in the Pacific Northwest used by many companies of people with disabilities
01:34:32working.
01:34:33And so I think getting this right and maximizing it is the best thing.
01:34:37So thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:34:38As usual, my colleague's probably too logical for this whole debate, but I think you and
01:34:44what Senator Casey was talking about with respect to ABLE accounts are on to some really
01:34:48promising things.
01:34:49So we thank you for the good work.
01:34:50Okay, I think we've got a colleague or two on their way.
01:34:53So I don't want you to think I'm just going to filibuster until they show up.
01:34:57But I have one question I do feel strongly about.
01:35:01Ms. Wilski, Commissioner O'Malley has made significant strides to support Americans currently
01:35:07dealing with this overpayment issue.
01:35:10We've talked at some length today because we've got to prevent them in the future because
01:35:15of the trauma that people go through.
01:35:17I've seen it.
01:35:18And as Ms. Gotland said, here's somebody who's got an overpayment of $28,000 and is trying
01:35:25to figure out how in the world am I going to be able to pay the bills and get through
01:35:29the day.
01:35:30So we've got to get this resolved.
01:35:31Now, one of the initiatives that I have been pursuing vigorously as chairman, and actually
01:35:38before really I was in this position, is getting the payroll information exchange up
01:35:45and running.
01:35:46That was something that I authored back in 2015.
01:35:51That was the law that I authored.
01:35:53Now I understand that Social Security is still reviewing public comments for the data exchange,
01:36:00which is so key to finally turning around this overpayment issue.
01:36:06We're going to go to Senator Hassell in just a minute, but can you give us, give the Finance
01:36:11Committee some sort of estimated timeline for this exchange to be online so that people
01:36:19see that we're actually making concrete progress today in terms of dealing with these issues?
01:36:28What's your take in terms of the timeline?
01:36:32Thank you for your question.
01:36:33As you said, we did issue our formal notice of our plans to use the payroll information
01:36:39exchange in February, and we're continuing to review the public comment.
01:36:43I don't have a timeline to share with you today, but I can assure you that our commissioner
01:36:47is very committed to making use of this data, and I'd be happy to take that back and get
01:36:51you-
01:36:52When is the public comment issue going to be dealt with?
01:36:57Because that in and of itself would be a bit of concrete information that we're moving
01:37:02ahead.
01:37:03I'd be happy to get you a response for the record.
01:37:05I'd like the answer to that question within a week.
01:37:08I want to have a sense of where the timeline is.
01:37:10I wrote that law in 2015.
01:37:13Commissioner O'Malley's off to a strong start.
01:37:16This is one of the key parts of it, and just a sense of where the timeline would be on
01:37:20that key issue that's essential.
01:37:23Senator Hassell's been interested in this.
01:37:24A lot of my colleagues that are going to get us on top of the overpayment issue and reduce
01:37:28it.
01:37:29Senator Hassell.
01:37:30Thank you very much, Chair Wyden, and I want to thank you and Ranking Member Crapo for
01:37:34having this hearing and to our witnesses.
01:37:37Thank you for being here.
01:37:38Thank you for the work you do.
01:37:40Associate Commissioner Wilski, I want to start with a question to you.
01:37:45Social Security disability insurance supports individuals with disabilities who are unable
01:37:49to engage in substantial employment because of their disability.
01:37:54We know that some work limiting disabilities such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder
01:37:59are often diagnosed in early adulthood, and I know Senator Cassidy gave you an example
01:38:05earlier about a constituent of his who had a diagnosis in early adulthood, and as you
01:38:12know, Senator Cassidy and I are introducing the Bipartisan Fairness for Disabled Young
01:38:17Adults Act, which would increase the age threshold for SSDI disability diagnoses for adult children
01:38:24from age 22 to 26.
01:38:26So can you please give the committee a sense of how the timing of a disability diagnosis
01:38:31figures in the process a family has to go through to apply for SSDI benefits for their
01:38:37adult children with disabilities?
01:38:40Thank you for the question.
01:38:42As you state, an individual has to have a disability that's established before age 22
01:38:50in order to qualify for disabled adult child benefits on the parent's record.
01:38:54Right.
01:38:55So obviously, again, if you have a diagnosis at age 23 or 24, you are suddenly in a different
01:39:01category unable to essentially use your parent's record.
01:39:07That's correct.
01:39:08All right.
01:39:09Okay.
01:39:10Another question for you, Associate Commissioner, and it follows up on what the chair was just
01:39:14talking about.
01:39:15The committee has worked across the aisle on ways to prevent undue harm on Social Security
01:39:19recipients when they receive overpayments.
01:39:22Recipients are often unaware that they were overpaid by the Social Security Administration
01:39:26until the agency requires them to quickly pay back hundreds or thousands of dollars.
01:39:32Senator Cassidy and I wrote a letter on this issue, and the agency announced in March that
01:39:36it would change its overpayment recovery process to better protect vulnerable individuals from
01:39:41significant financial harm.
01:39:43How has the rollout of the improved process gone, and what impact do you expect it to
01:39:47have on beneficiaries and agency operations?
01:39:52Thank you for the question, and as you know, Commissioner O'Malley has been very committed
01:39:56to addressing overpayments, and we have made several changes.
01:40:00Really, the rollout of that is outside my purview, but I would be happy to take that
01:40:04back for response.
01:40:05Okay.
01:40:06Again, I will just add to what Senator Wyden was asking about here.
01:40:09We really would like an update and really understand how it is working.
01:40:13And I'm seeing Ms. Zuliger say that she might have something to add here.
01:40:17Yes.
01:40:18I can give you the perspective from the front line, from the field offices.
01:40:21The rollout was welcome.
01:40:24It was a change that we really appreciated, even on the front lines as employees, because
01:40:30we do recognize what a hardship it is for individuals, and to be able to say that only
01:40:3510 percent is going to be withheld instead of the whole benefit is a welcome relief,
01:40:40and the rollout has gone fairly smoothly from the front lines.
01:40:43Well thank you, and thank you for that insight.
01:40:45I really appreciate it.
01:40:47I have a question for Ms. Gotland.
01:40:50Social Security work incentive programs are complex and can be hard to navigate.
01:40:55Congress created programs like the Work Incentives Planning and Assistance Program to provide
01:40:59SSDI and SSI beneficiaries with trusted expert counseling on navigating the system's complexities.
01:41:06How effective has the program been, and what improvements do you recommend?
01:41:13Thank you for the question.
01:41:15We agree that WIPA is an important program that should be examined.
01:41:19GAO has not conducted an independent evaluation of the impact of WIPA.
01:41:25It has come up in a number of our reviews, including on transitioning youth.
01:41:32We've heard that counseling services can be very beneficial in understanding how to
01:41:39access complex federal work incentives.
01:41:42However, we also have recent information from the literature in at least one demonstration
01:41:48project that SSA tested, where they tested variations in the intensity of WIPA and found
01:41:54no significant differences in employment outcomes.
01:41:57So we believe that this is another area that could be potentially beneficial for GAO to
01:42:03look into.
01:42:04Thank you very much, and Mr. Chair, I yield the rest of my time.
01:42:09Thank my colleague, and look forward to working with her on these issues.
01:42:12Senator Brassell.
01:42:13Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:42:14First, Dr. Gotland, I have the same concerns that Senator Hassan has just had, and Senator
01:42:19Hassan just asked us questions related to the overpayments and Social Security Administration.
01:42:24So when you get back to her, I'd love to have those same answers, because I have very similar
01:42:27questions.
01:42:28This is a bipartisan concern that's shared by the committee.
01:42:30Brassell, I don't want to interrupt you, but I asked this question, and we'll share all
01:42:33the answers, you, Senator Hassan, and I.
01:42:36Go ahead.
01:42:37Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
01:42:41For more than a decade, I've been very concerned in carrying what I believe is common sense
01:42:45legislation to help individuals who have terminal illnesses receive timely access to their earned
01:42:51disability benefits.
01:42:53For someone who's diagnosed with a terminal illness and given less than six months to
01:42:56live, they are literally running out of time.
01:43:00That's why I've sponsored bipartisan legislation, the Expedited Disability Insurance Payments
01:43:04for Terminally Ill Individuals Act, and been joined in the past by senators from this committee,
01:43:10both sides of the aisle, to fix this massive problem.
01:43:13The bill ends the five-month disability insurance waiting period for those diagnosed with a
01:43:17terminal illness that have less than six months to live.
01:43:21In 2023 alone, more than 30,000 people died waiting for disability decisions to come from
01:43:27Social Security.
01:43:30That's even before their five-month wait begins.
01:43:33So a policy that forces people with a terminal illness to wait five months when they don't
01:43:37really have another five months is a terrible policy.
01:43:40For people with terminal illness, they usually can't work at all.
01:43:44On top of the loss of income, enormous expenses from medical treatments, other unexpected
01:43:50costs kick in.
01:43:51Many cases, spouses, family members have to take time off just to help support that individual.
01:43:57No reason for someone who is paid in to have to wait five months, especially when they
01:44:02don't have that much time left.
01:44:05So Congress rightfully terminated the five-month waiting period for people with ALS in 2020.
01:44:12Can you explain why it would make sense for Congress to make a similar common-sense exception
01:44:17for terminally ill individuals with less than six months to live?
01:44:22Thank you for your question, and I think we would be happy to work with you on technical
01:44:26assistance in your legislation to address that issue that beneficiaries are facing in
01:44:30accessing their benefits.
01:44:32But beyond working with me, can you explain to the people who are watching why it would
01:44:36make sense for Congress to make a common-sense exception for terminally ill individuals?
01:44:45People who are terminally ill are not going to be able to receive their benefits for long
01:44:48periods of time, and so having quicker access is going to help them in those last few months.
01:44:53Mr. Morton, how can we improve an individual's well-being?
01:44:58You know, you mentioned in your testimony a report titled Lessons from SSA Demonstrations
01:45:03for Disability Policy and Future Research.
01:45:06The report went, I thought it had an interesting discovery concerning the non-monetary benefits
01:45:12of work.
01:45:13The researchers found even without much of an increase in earnings, greater employment
01:45:18could reflect improvements in well-being for people in SSA beneficiaries and recipients.
01:45:23Forty-five percent of beneficiaries and recipients reported they had significant goals that included
01:45:29working, advancing their careers.
01:45:32For some, their disability is an enormous impairment to achieving their career goals
01:45:36and returning back to work.
01:45:38There are also those for whom going back to work is the very thing they need to improve
01:45:42their mental health and their personal well-being, not the money side of it, but the other aspects
01:45:46of their identity in terms of the value of work.
01:45:50For those who want to get back to work and whose condition may have improved enough to
01:45:55take on more employment, what seems to be a biggest barrier for them to return to work?
01:46:01So studies, when they have surveyed beneficiaries, you know, many will say yes, work is a goal
01:46:08for them.
01:46:09They look forward to work, but when they're asked the reasons why they can't work or why
01:46:13they stopped work, the most frequently cited reason is their physical or mental condition.
01:46:19And so because disability for some may be episodic, they may have months or even, you
01:46:24know, for years where they can work to some degree, but then their disability becomes
01:46:30severe again and they can't work for extended periods, and so this can cycle.
01:46:34So oftentimes it's their impairment, but it can be inaccessible workplaces, you know,
01:46:39the fear of working too much and maybe losing those benefits, particularly healthcare benefits,
01:46:43which are sometimes double the value of the cash benefits.
01:46:48Those are some of the barriers that I think beneficiaries frequently cite for the reasons
01:46:53why they stop working or don't work.
01:46:55So Ms. Wilski, what reforms could be made to SSDI to help encourage recovery and a return
01:47:01to work instead of ongoing dependence?
01:47:05Thank you for the question.
01:47:06I think we know that our work incentives are very complex, and so simplifying them, making
01:47:11them easier for people to understand while maintaining those protections that I think
01:47:15are so important, and that's really a balance to get it right, to simplify it, to continue
01:47:22to allow that ongoing eligibility, and consider the cost effect of those.
01:47:27That's what we need to do.
01:47:28Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:47:30I thank my colleague, and I thank all four of you.
01:47:33We've been at this for, you know, a couple hours, and, you know, I think, you know, my
01:47:38take is that it's clear that there is bipartisan support for these changes.
01:47:46I don't know of anybody who's told me they get up in the morning and just say, we don't
01:47:52want these programs and they're just a bad idea and all the rest.
01:47:57I think, as I said, you know, a couple of hours ago, the laws on the books when it comes
01:48:04to work and Social Security are bureaucratic, suffocating, mindless straitjacket, and make
01:48:12it almost impossible to work while maintaining eligibility for benefits.
01:48:17And despite all the good intentions, you know, I'm walking out of here basically saying that's
01:48:24still what we got to change, and it's time to do it.
01:48:31We have a new commissioner who's told me personally and sat at the witness table that he's committed
01:48:38to getting it done, which is why, as I asked Ms. Wilski and my colleagues followed up,
01:48:44is we want to work with the agency on this timetable to get the payroll exchange up and
01:48:48going because that's one of the key kind of aspects of ending these overpayments, reducing
01:48:55them in the future.
01:48:57So I put this as a conversation to be continued, and it's a conversation where everybody's
01:49:03going to have to do better, and certainly those of us on the dais want to do it.
01:49:09It's clear that you all are committed to doing it.
01:49:12Now we just got to come together and get it done.
01:49:15With that, the Finance Committee is adjourned.

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