MotorTrend's Ed Loh & Jonny Lieberman continue their conversation with Out Of Spec Review Founder
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00:00 Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend.
00:04 Hi there, and welcome to another episode of The Inevitable.
00:19 This is Motor Trend's show about the future of the car,
00:22 the future of transportation, mobility,
00:25 the future of powering the cars.
00:26 And boy, do we have an interesting episode for you today,
00:29 because not only is it our first ever two-parter,
00:33 but we just have a great guest.
00:35 We'll get to him in a second.
00:36 This is Ed Lowe.
00:37 I'm Johnny Lieberman.
00:38 Before we get to the guest, Ed has a message for you.
00:40 Yes, The Inevitable podcast is brought to you
00:42 by the all-electric Nissan Ariya,
00:45 inspired by the future, designed for the now.
00:48 And right now, we're going to get into our question
00:51 of the episode.
00:52 And it's a little bit long and specific,
00:54 but actually topical, given who we're going to talk to.
00:57 It comes from a gentleman who reached out on Instagram
00:59 in my DMs by the name of George Acorn.
01:02 And he says, "I'm on my second Audi e-tron
01:04 "and about 100,000 miles of EV driving logged.
01:08 "I need to replace our internal combustion car,"
01:11 which just happens to be an RS6.
01:12 Yeah, we know George, by the way.
01:13 Go ahead.
01:14 "Tempted by Rivian and the smoking deals
01:18 "on barely used RS e-tron GTs
01:21 "or Porsche Taycan Cross Turismos,
01:24 "but I'm afraid of going a two EV household,
01:27 "maybe a bridge too far,
01:28 "and trying to avoid depreciation by selling the RS6.
01:32 "So going EV might be even worse
01:34 "when judged on potential depreciation."
01:37 Yeah.
01:37 What are your thoughts?
01:38 Very complicated question.
01:39 Yeah, but really, the gist of it is,
01:41 can you have two EVs and have no other cars?
01:43 So look, you know, if one of them isn't a Tesla
01:48 or able to use the Tesla Supercharger network,
01:52 road trips will be problematic.
01:54 However, if you can reliably use the Supercharger network,
01:58 you can road trip anywhere.
01:59 So, you know, if you put 100,000 miles on that Audi e-tron,
02:03 you're using it pretty well.
02:04 Yeah.
02:05 And it's just one of those fear things, you know?
02:07 And so our guest who's coming in,
02:09 Kyle Connor from Out of Spec Reviews,
02:12 you know, he's got five EVs,
02:13 but he has a lot of backup internal combustion cars.
02:17 But yeah, look, I think you--
02:20 You totally missed,
02:21 I thought you were gonna go a totally different direction.
02:22 What about the RS6, baby?
02:24 Come on.
02:25 Oh, I'm not a big fan of the RS6.
02:26 What?
02:27 E63 is just so much better.
02:28 This is an Audi Homer.
02:30 And look, but I would say this, though.
02:33 If you're worried about two EVs
02:35 because you're worried about range,
02:36 well, I wouldn't get a slightly used Taycan
02:39 or a slightly used--
02:39 Fair point.
02:40 I love the Audi GT, but their Achilles heel is range.
02:44 I've never owned a vehicle I like more than the Rivian R1T.
02:49 Get the Rivian R1T.
02:50 Okay.
02:51 Fair enough.
02:52 I don't have anything really to add other than,
02:54 look, if you've hit 100,000 miles with your e-tron,
02:59 what Johnny said, you're doing pretty good.
03:02 You're well ahead of the curve for most EV drivers,
03:05 so you probably have it figured out.
03:06 And having two wouldn't be a problem.
03:09 But if you're worried, get a Tesla,
03:12 because you're gonna have a better charging network,
03:14 a bigger charging network, and--
03:15 But remember, now you can get a Lightning,
03:17 it's on the Tesla network.
03:18 You can get a Rivian on the Tesla network.
03:20 But you'll still have--
03:22 You gotta find the right--
03:23 The range king, or it sounds like you're loaded,
03:25 get a Lucid.
03:26 I mean, if you're worried about range,
03:28 that Lucid Grand Touring, 516 miles, EPA rated,
03:32 and real world's about 501, so--
03:35 And there's some deals going,
03:36 not smoking deals like you can get
03:38 on these used e-trons and Cross Turismos,
03:42 but thank you for the question.
03:45 If you'd like us to answer a question on air,
03:49 ask us, go into our Instagram,
03:51 go comment below the YouTube video if you're watching,
03:54 shoot us an email.
03:55 MotorTrend@MotorTrend.com.
03:57 We will send you swag.
03:58 This is a representative sampling
04:00 of just some of the swag we might send you.
04:02 An inevitable hat, an inevitable t-shirt,
04:05 maybe a copy of the magazine.
04:06 Yes, we still do a magazine.
04:08 We got some swag from Sonatas, who was a guest,
04:11 and Arm, Arm gave us socks,
04:13 which is kind of a running joke, they're Arm socks.
04:16 We got lots of swag to send you.
04:18 Send us your questions, we'll answer them.
04:21 But for now, let's really get into Connor.
04:23 Kyle Connor, out of spec, blew my mind.
04:27 You've been, thank you, you've been saying
04:29 we should have him on for a long time.
04:30 He's arguably the most knowledgeable person on the internet
04:33 when it comes to EV charging, EVs in general.
04:37 Arguably, what's the argument?
04:38 Yeah, he is.
04:39 All right, without further ado, Kyle Connor.
04:41 All right, Kyle.
04:42 Woo!
04:43 This is a long time coming.
04:45 We made it happen.
04:46 Thank you so much for coming here.
04:47 Thank you also for loaning us your Cyber Beast pickup truck.
04:52 Story should be out right about now, I hope.
04:55 And that shows you, like, if you're OEM
04:57 without a PR department, we have to borrow YouTubers' cars.
05:02 Which I, at this point, I am totally fine with,
05:06 because no more can people claim
05:09 that we are in the pockets of these, of big EV.
05:12 They won't even give us the damn vehicles.
05:15 But your friend had a question.
05:16 We're in the pockets of big Chevy.
05:18 Yeah, I was like, how much did Chevy pay
05:19 for their Blazer EV car of the year?
05:22 SUV of the year.
05:23 SUV of the year, which they subsequently
05:25 had to do a stop sale or recall on.
05:28 We felt great about that.
05:29 So we felt really good about it.
05:30 The timing was awesome.
05:31 They did not pay anything for the award.
05:34 Now, they do pay to license and use the award
05:36 in advertising, but that is after the fact.
05:39 Okay.
05:40 So, yes, and that is all negotiated by a guy in a suit.
05:43 Famously, the guy in the suit, his name is Eric Schwab.
05:45 When we named the Model S the car of the year,
05:48 I remember him running into your office saying,
05:51 Tesla doesn't advertise!
05:53 Why the hell did you pick that?
05:55 Well, where were they when we picked Nissan GT-R one year?
05:58 That also, total sales volume, it was like 2,000.
06:02 Prius was like zero.
06:03 The first, the 2003 Prius was like a zero.
06:06 They didn't care.
06:07 Anyways, that's--
06:08 But zero dollars.
06:09 I wanna join on one of those,
06:10 just to see what the criteria is like,
06:11 what the judging is like.
06:12 Dude, anytime, we'd love to have you.
06:14 You'd get a kick out of it.
06:15 It's really geeky.
06:16 Yeah, that's what I'm into.
06:17 So, that'd be fun.
06:18 You know what you should do?
06:19 Embed him with the test.
06:19 If you wanna really go crazy,
06:20 we'll embed you with the test crew.
06:21 Hey, hey, hey, this is a test.
06:23 Let's see how he does on the podcast first.
06:25 Yeah, let's see, let's see.
06:27 'Cause there's the testing, and then there's the judging.
06:29 And they're two separate things.
06:31 Well, I've learned testing,
06:32 everyone needs to do a better job of testing, including us.
06:35 So, yeah, testing's hardcore.
06:38 That's a statement, 'cause you do some crazy stuff.
06:40 But let's get into it.
06:42 Let's just start with some topical news
06:45 for the headline of this piece,
06:46 so it does the best on YouTube and our podcast
06:49 and online as possible.
06:51 Literally, today, Tesla announced Model 3 performance.
06:55 And my understanding is you were just coming back
06:57 from checking it out?
06:59 Yep, they just had it at the Santa Monica showroom,
07:01 went over there, got up underneath it,
07:03 got to play around with all the stuff,
07:05 but have not driven it.
07:07 So, did you get a tip that it was gonna be there,
07:11 or you just called up and you went, or?
07:12 A friend of mine, who's a real big Tesla enthusiast,
07:16 texted me, he's like, "Dude, they pulled it
07:17 "into the showroom."
07:18 I guess he had been waiting around, I don't know.
07:20 But, so yeah, just drove over there, and they were cool.
07:22 And you don't, you're a pretty big deal
07:25 in the EV and car space.
07:27 You did not get a heads up, you're not?
07:30 No, so Tesla will work with us on certain things.
07:33 And not on the Model 3 performance, though.
07:35 Nothing head up on that car.
07:37 You've been like the biggest Model 3 evangelist
07:39 out there, and one of the longest.
07:41 Yeah, but we've always blended that line
07:44 between media and owner, right?
07:46 Like I can, I buy the cars as my personal vehicles.
07:50 I'm not just into Tesla, of course,
07:51 but yeah, and they do a lot of things
07:53 that annoy me as well, so I feel like I'm just as harsh
07:56 as anyone on them.
07:57 I was gonna say, I really enjoyed,
07:59 Ed and I were actually just emailing back and forth
08:01 to each other, your Cyber Beast balcony thoughts
08:04 about when is a software defined vehicle,
08:08 like when should it go on sale?
08:10 Right.
08:11 And I actually, I think you were a little bit,
08:15 how do I put this, whatever, like you were
08:18 a little bit more forgiving than I would be.
08:20 Yeah, sure.
08:20 Like if I were you, I'd be so furious
08:22 about buying that Cybertruck, and the diffs
08:23 still don't lock.
08:24 Oh, it's crazy, I mean, I bought it for content
08:26 to make videos like this, to follow the story
08:28 of the car.
08:29 But if you were a normal person.
08:30 If it was my personal vehicle, I would have just said,
08:32 okay, Tesla, the thing's worth how much
08:34 in the used market?
08:35 200 grand for a tri-motor one.
08:37 I'd be like, do you want to buy it back?
08:39 And if they say no, I think you can sell it.
08:40 Yeah.
08:41 So I'd be like, oh, see you later.
08:42 But I can't do that, of course.
08:43 Because you and I are both Rivian Irwin T owners,
08:45 and the reason I got it, the whole reason
08:48 I was looking for any kind of vehicle
08:49 was I wanted a hardcore off-roader.
08:53 And the Cyber Beast is supposed to be that,
08:55 and if you bought it and it didn't work off-road,
09:00 like I'd be furious.
09:01 Yeah, totally.
09:02 And I think it's really crazy, of course,
09:05 and we can go, I've made a whole video on the topic,
09:06 but it's like, it didn't really start
09:09 around the Cybertruck.
09:10 I was actually driving in the canyons,
09:11 and I'm like, when is a vehicle considered saleable?
09:14 When is it complete?
09:15 And everyone will have a different idea
09:17 of what's able to be completed after start of production.
09:20 Fisker famously shipped on V1 software
09:23 with the promise of V2.
09:24 I think getting that into the cars has been a pain.
09:27 Has kind of almost bankrupted them.
09:29 Like, that was a kind of huge miscalculation.
09:32 Huge problems, massive.
09:33 Yeah.
09:34 Because I remember back when the Model S shipped,
09:37 it was complete.
09:38 It was complete, and then everything that showed up
09:40 was like, oh, wow, that's so cool.
09:42 And I feel, maybe you agree,
09:44 the Rivian's been like that too.
09:46 It was a complete truck at the point of sale.
09:48 Everything they've added delights me.
09:50 I think their software is amazing, but it did everything.
09:55 Keep in mind, they didn't ship the, what is it,
09:57 the kitchen thing that pops out the side.
09:58 There was some hardware.
09:59 Hardware accessories that were advertised that never came.
10:02 But again, that's an optional accessory.
10:04 That didn't, I mean, look, I will say,
10:06 to be actually, to bolster what you just said,
10:09 when I got it, they're like,
10:10 look, your tonneau cover's gonna break.
10:13 Right.
10:14 You know, like, this is a third party.
10:16 It's going to break.
10:17 We'll sell it to you, but do you want a manual one?
10:19 And I said, no.
10:20 And it worked great for six months, and then it broke.
10:22 Yeah, mine broke recently.
10:24 They just retrofitted with the new one.
10:25 The new one's great.
10:26 Yeah, new one, awesome.
10:27 So back to Model 3.
10:29 Oh, he didn't drive it.
10:31 He looked at it.
10:32 I looked at it, too.
10:33 What about the, you didn't?
10:34 I had a picture.
10:35 I don't know.
10:35 What, specs-wise, we should also note
10:39 that we are recording this, not just on the day it dropped,
10:41 but probably why today was the day it dropped.
10:44 This is the Tesla earnings, the quarterly earnings call,
10:49 which I think most people are predicting
10:52 is gonna be a big disappointment
10:53 to investors and shareholders.
10:55 Any thoughts?
10:58 Any thoughts on this vehicle,
11:00 Model 3 performance, Tesla performance vehicles in general?
11:05 Yeah, well, I just, I mean,
11:06 I think maybe you guys did as well,
11:08 but we all just drove the Ioniq 5N,
11:10 which is like a really hot,
11:12 I don't wanna say hatch, but it's larger than a hatch,
11:14 but a really hot performance-oriented electric vehicle
11:17 that's not $250,000, like a Lucid Sapphire
11:21 or a Taycan Turbo GT.
11:22 And I was like, wow, cool, this is awesome.
11:24 And in the review, I just kept coming,
11:26 like, I wish I knew what the Model 3 performance was,
11:28 because this could be really close.
11:31 And I was expecting Model 3 performance was delayed
11:34 from the standard car,
11:37 has been out for a couple months now,
11:39 maybe even six months in Europe.
11:41 It's been a while, yeah.
11:42 So the performance was delayed.
11:43 I'm like, ah, they definitely gotta be dialing this thing up,
11:45 making it hardcore.
11:46 And what launched today is not that.
11:49 It's a new motor in the back,
11:51 but it's a tiny bit fraction,
11:53 total system power is a little bit more.
11:56 It was like 510 horsepower.
11:58 510, it's 380 kilowatts, which is-
12:00 - And it's the Gen 4 motor on the rear
12:02 and the front motor's the same?
12:04 - It, nothing, with Tesla, you don't know.
12:06 But yes, front motor's assumed to be the same
12:08 sort of induction motor in the front,
12:09 permanent magnet in the rear.
12:12 They say better thermal longevity.
12:13 They gave figures for the Gen 4 motor
12:16 that was like 22%, I forget them offhand,
12:18 but like 22% more power, 32% more torque.
12:21 I'm just throwing those out.
12:22 But then the actual numbers from the previous car
12:25 to the new car, only like a 5% improvement.
12:28 So they must be battery limited
12:30 or something limited to get more power,
12:32 or there's a hot one, Model 3 Ludicrous, maybe.
12:35 I don't know, that's coming in the future.
12:37 I don't typically speculate,
12:38 but I was hoping it would be crazier.
12:41 And it seems like a really good daily driver
12:43 that's gonna be comfortable.
12:44 And it has adaptive damper now, which is nice.
12:46 So you can change the character a bit,
12:49 but it's no Ioniq 5N, which I think that's like,
12:52 you know, monoblock brakes, big suspension upgrades,
12:55 things like that.
12:55 - Yeah, it's, you know, it's-
12:56 - A wiper.
12:57 - Yeah, rear wipe area.
12:58 - We sent Joe Barry on the launch.
13:00 I wasn't there, but I was reading everyone's reviews,
13:02 including yours.
13:03 And, you know, every once in a while on a launch,
13:06 you know, 'cause I can kind of read between the lines
13:08 with the journalists, I've been doing this long enough,
13:09 but like when a car is praised like that, it's damn good.
13:13 And like, you know, I talked to Farah about it
13:15 and like, you know, just seems to be the new benchmark
13:18 for performance EVs.
13:19 - Totally, yeah.
13:20 So my viewpoint is, okay, better car,
13:22 but it's $13,000 more than a Model 3 performance.
13:26 And it doesn't get the tax credit,
13:27 which the Model 3 performance does.
13:29 So in my head, I was comparing them,
13:30 but they're actually different price brackets.
13:32 So, you know, you can get, at least in Colorado,
13:35 like a Model 3 for low to mid 40s now performance,
13:38 which is cheaper than the all-wheel drive.
13:40 If the all-wheel drive doesn't get the tax credit,
13:42 the big one does.
13:42 That's only if you qualify, but that's so much car.
13:45 I mean, at the end of the day, if you can walk away
13:46 for like 42 grand with a 500 horsepower-
13:49 - No, that's ridiculous.
13:50 - You know, car, that's insane.
13:51 - That's ridiculous, yeah.
13:52 - But you're still pretty bullish
13:53 on Model 3 Highland overall, right?
13:56 I think I watched one of your,
13:59 in the research for this episode,
14:01 I watched a few of your videos,
14:02 and the one where you got to experience
14:06 the Highland in Europe, you were a bit ahead of,
14:08 I remember, I also remember like kicking rocks
14:10 when you did that.
14:11 I was like, man, we gotta go to Europe to do this?
14:13 - Anyone can get a plane ticket.
14:15 (laughing)
14:17 - But you're, and I, this, is this still accurate
14:19 that you still feel Model 3 in general
14:22 is like the benchmark for this segment?
14:25 - Totally, I mean, at least in-
14:27 - So by a huge stretch.
14:29 - Do you remember when the F30 3 Series launched?
14:32 This was like 2012.
14:33 They were on every corner.
14:34 You would see every new 3 Series.
14:37 And then, what is it, 10 years later, roughly,
14:40 I haven't seen a new 3 Series in Colorado.
14:43 Maybe two, and Model 3s are on every corner.
14:46 So in terms of sales, yeah, this is the benchmark
14:48 for not only electric, but also just this class
14:51 of premium small sedan.
14:53 - Yeah, and then, you know, the Model 3 got a lot right.
14:57 And one of the things is, you know,
14:59 we'll get into this maybe in part two,
15:00 but all the EV haters out there,
15:03 oh, EVs are so heavy.
15:04 Like a Model 3 is 3,800 pounds.
15:06 It weighs the same as a 3 Series.
15:08 It weighs less than a C-Class.
15:10 - Yeah, yeah.
15:11 - Like it's remarkable they got that so right.
15:14 - Yeah, and so the weight's good.
15:15 I mean, the new car, the updates,
15:17 I don't know if you guys have driven it yet,
15:18 but it's better for like a comfortable daily driver.
15:21 They definitely scrubbed some of the performance
15:23 out of the standard car, and it's just nice, comfortable.
15:26 It's got everything you need.
15:27 More importantly to me is like,
15:28 and to a lot of people is you have dog mode.
15:30 You have great app connectivity.
15:32 You have the best charging network.
15:34 It's a mindless ownership experience.
15:36 It's not exciting.
15:37 It's not enthusiastic.
15:38 But if you just need a car that holds its value
15:41 reasonably well, considering, if you buy a new one now,
15:45 you're not gonna lose much.
15:46 If you bought one two years ago,
15:48 which I've been in that position,
15:49 I have a Model S that I ate a lot of crap on.
15:52 But we can definitely get into that.
15:54 But I think if you buy one for low to mid 30s new,
15:57 you're not gonna get hurt.
15:59 - Yes, believe me, I'm like the cheapest guy on the planet.
16:01 - He is the cheapest guy.
16:02 - I've been surfing used Tesla prices.
16:07 I love seeing, I mean, it's wild
16:08 that you can buy a Model S under 20, 25 now.
16:12 - Yeah, and Model 3s are 15.
16:13 - Model 3s are 15 to 17 in certain places.
16:17 I mean, that can't help the resale,
16:20 the current resale value though, right?
16:22 I mean, I know, a buddy of mine bought a Model Y
16:24 about 18 months ago, and he's just like,
16:27 it's 70 grand for that thing.
16:28 - Oh, well, that's crazy.
16:29 I mean, I paid 140 for my Model S,
16:32 and now it's worth 55.
16:35 - The Plaid is worth 50?
16:36 - It's only got 25,000 miles on it, 55, yeah.
16:39 - That's a-
16:40 - That's without even disclosing
16:41 that my colleague smashed it into a curb,
16:42 and I don't know if it has an accident report or not.
16:46 - I didn't realize they were that cheap.
16:47 I mean, the 1,000 horsepower for 50 grand is pretty good.
16:50 - Yeah, I don't think they're quite 50, but you know-
16:52 - Well, 55.
16:53 - Yeah, mid 50s on trade-in,
16:54 so let's say you buy it for 59, that's-
16:57 - That's a smart-
16:58 - Yeah, that's not bad.
16:59 - It's the new muscle car.
17:00 - Yeah, that's not bad, that's not bad.
17:01 - Yeah, the new muscle car.
17:02 - All right, so we covered Model 3s.
17:05 - How about Cyber Beasts?
17:06 - I got it, let's talk about,
17:07 let's talk about Cybertruck plus Cyber Beasts,
17:09 and then another one I kicked rocks on
17:12 when I saw you had it, Silverado EV.
17:14 - Oh, yeah, yeah.
17:15 - Hell yeah, brother.
17:16 - Okay, so-
17:17 - Let's do Cybertruck, though.
17:17 - So Cybertruck, you've now owned one,
17:21 you've been driving around for over,
17:22 like, what, close to two months now?
17:23 - Yep, just about.
17:25 - And-
17:25 - Oh, go ahead.
17:26 Okay, I drove real quick, though.
17:27 I just wanna see if you agree with my assessment,
17:29 and I know you've driven the 600 horsepower one
17:31 extensively.
17:33 It is neither as horrible or as wonderful
17:36 as everyone wants you to think.
17:38 I think it's like, it's a very nice driving,
17:41 seems to be pretty well-made automobile.
17:44 - Yeah, what's crazy is how,
17:47 so you read everything online,
17:48 everyone has all these opinions.
17:49 You got the Tesla shills that are like,
17:51 best thing in the world, and this is an abomination.
17:53 But when you drive it, it's just like a big Model Y.
17:55 - Yeah.
17:56 - It's just like a normal thing.
17:57 - But nicer, it's like a little bit nicer.
17:58 - Yeah, it's nicer, and people just stare at you,
18:01 and it's very dangerous to drive outside the LA area,
18:04 'cause they're here now, you see them on the streets.
18:06 But in, like, South Florida, when I got my truck,
18:10 dude, like, you had to be so careful,
18:12 'cause people would, like, film,
18:13 and then come into your lane,
18:15 and it was the most dangerous vehicle to drive,
18:17 not because of the vehicle,
18:19 but because of everyone around you.
18:21 - My quick, to me, the biggest shortcoming of the thing,
18:25 besides, well, maybe that weird wiper,
18:29 but is, you know, again,
18:32 because it's not a full-size truck,
18:35 like, and it has a big bed,
18:37 but because of the architecture of the thing,
18:39 you can't get into the bed to grab stuff.
18:41 You have to climb in every time.
18:43 - Yeah, like, going over the side is impossible.
18:45 - It's impossible, and, like, you know,
18:47 my friend got one, and he was like,
18:48 "It's the greatest pickup,"
18:49 he's never even thought about a pickup truck before.
18:50 - That's, every Cybertruck owner
18:52 has never owned a truck before.
18:53 - And I said, "Oh, yeah, look at this," with my Rivian,
18:55 and I go, "Lower yours all the way to the ground, lower it."
18:57 And I lowered the Rivian, I go, "Watch this."
18:59 I took his water bottle,
19:00 and I threw it in the back of the Rivian,
19:01 and I go, "By the way, in a pickup truck,
19:02 "when you hit the brakes, everything slides against the cab."
19:05 And I go, "Look at this," and I got his water bottle,
19:07 and then I took it and threw it in his Cybertruck,
19:09 and he's like, "Oh, yeah, go get your water."
19:11 - Yeah, and, yeah, this I'm worried about.
19:14 I mean, so, to be transparent,
19:15 we've used the truck for testing for two months nonstop.
19:18 We have almost 10,000 miles on it now.
19:20 It's just been across the country,
19:22 towing, hauling, doing stuff,
19:24 but I haven't used it as my daily truck.
19:25 I still have my Rivian that I've been, like,
19:27 putting tires in to go swap on vehicles,
19:29 and, like, doing, you know, dog food runs,
19:31 which take a bunch of room.
19:33 And so that is gonna be interesting
19:36 to see what it's like to live with.
19:37 But if that's, like, the biggest problem,
19:39 I think I can get over the whole reaching into the bed thing.
19:41 - Okay.
19:42 - It's just more of, it's more climbing into the bed.
19:45 I like that. - All right, all right.
19:46 So you bought this in, excuse me, excuse me.
19:51 Been a truck owner my whole life.
19:54 - Yeah, so you rolling over on the highway.
19:56 - Exactly, driving a F-150 Lightning.
19:58 In 1983, turned up Hilux as my high school daily driver.
20:01 Get out of here.
20:02 A question, though, for you.
20:04 You bought this in Florida.
20:07 Did you put, like, a standard, regular human put it
20:09 the day it was announced?
20:10 - No, no.
20:11 We put in order, like, right before we got the truck.
20:14 So what happened was, Tesla has a referral program.
20:17 - Okay. - So if you have,
20:19 you know, friends or whatever that you refer cars to
20:21 or trucks to, you build up points.
20:23 I think it's actually kind of fun, kind of cool.
20:26 But my dad works for us, he has a YouTube channel.
20:29 And so he had all these points that he's used.
20:31 And so I was like, "Dad, you got all these referral points."
20:34 The Cybertruck just popped up in the referral store,
20:38 which is like a Tesla owners only store.
20:40 And it said, "Guaranteed delivery within,"
20:42 I forget what it was, but it was like,
20:44 "Two months or something like that."
20:45 It was like eight to 12 weeks.
20:47 And we were like, "Well, let's just do that.
20:49 It's not gonna work, that's crazy."
20:51 And to be honest, I didn't, at the time,
20:54 they weren't building the tri-motor ones that commonly,
20:57 but they let us choose that.
20:58 I'm like, "Well, if we have the option,
20:59 let's just go for it."
21:00 And it all happened, it was like 10 p.m. at night.
21:03 I was like two beers in and I'm like,
21:05 "Whatever, let's get a freaking Cybertruck."
21:07 And it was like 250 bucks.
21:08 I'm like, "Okay, if it doesn't work,
21:09 we lost a couple hundred bucks."
21:11 - But you saw the Cybertruck reveal with Elon
21:15 and the thing and you weren't one of the people
21:17 that put the deposit down?
21:18 - No, I thought it was dumb.
21:19 - Oh, really? - Oh, why did you
21:20 think it was dumb?
21:21 - I thought it was a joke when it rolled up on stage.
21:23 It was, I was like, "This thing is so ugly."
21:25 - What part of it, the look, the feel?
21:26 - I just was like, "This is, I mean,
21:28 it's been years now for us to soak this in."
21:30 - Yeah, it has.
21:31 (laughing)
21:33 - But yeah, I just was not into the truck at all.
21:36 - Interesting. - Really?
21:36 - Yeah, I mean, still for me,
21:37 I prefer the Rivian over the Cybertruck
21:39 as my daily driver. - You mean looks?
21:40 Oh, it's daily, yeah.
21:41 - Yeah, just as a vehicle, it's a higher quality.
21:43 - So you don't like the way it looks?
21:45 - I don't think it's pretty, I think it's interesting.
21:47 I'm not like, "Ew."
21:49 - Or you don't like the look at me,
21:50 'cause the look at me factor, I hate that.
21:52 Truly, people think-- - That's annoying.
21:53 - Yeah, I don't like-- - See, I've learned
21:55 decades of-- - You love it.
21:56 - No, decades of driving supercars has taught me
21:59 don't look at anybody ever.
22:00 - Johnny, actually, he secretly loved it.
22:01 (laughing)
22:02 - I wouldn't even notice.
22:03 - It was really fun the first eight hours.
22:05 And then we were like, "Everyone is driving
22:07 "so weird around us."
22:09 And I was just like, now I'm actually trying
22:12 to avoid the cameras for fun.
22:13 So if I see a camera come out, I'll just go full ABS brakes
22:16 if no one's behind me.
22:17 - Right, right. - And just avoid them.
22:18 - I mean, I drove, what was the thing?
22:20 It was the McLaren Elva.
22:22 - Yeah. - With no windshield.
22:23 - No windshield, yeah. - On the freeway.
22:25 And my gut, people were leaning out of their cars,
22:27 and just because there's no windows or windshield,
22:29 just putting their cameras in the car with me.
22:31 (laughing)
22:31 You know, like I actually touched a guy's phone.
22:33 - Yeah, it's amazing. - Like, what are you doing?
22:35 - So how many Teslas do you own or does--
22:39 - Or what's in your fleet? - Does Out of Spec own?
22:41 - What's your fleet? - How do you count?
22:43 - So technically, the Cybertruck's registered
22:47 under my dad's name.
22:48 The company pays for it, so we just had to put it
22:50 in his name for the referral points and everything.
22:52 And he works for us, so it's all cool.
22:54 So we have that.
22:55 He has a Model X as his personal daily driver,
22:58 which we can use.
22:59 I've borrowed it for some time, but that's really his car.
23:02 I own a Model S as my daily driver.
23:05 Technically, that and the Rivian are my two cars
23:08 that I use around.
23:09 Don't, not super into the Model S, personally,
23:12 but it's lost so much value, you can't really sell it.
23:15 I mean, it's, for 50 grand,
23:17 having a cool 1,000-horsepower car around,
23:19 may as well have that.
23:20 And then we have a Model 3 Performance that's from 2019,
23:25 and that was a car that helped grow out of spec.
23:27 That was my car back in the day.
23:29 That was my only car, and we did road trips
23:32 and all the videos out of that thing,
23:34 and that's what helped get us off the ground.
23:36 - So four Teslas and a Rivian.
23:38 That's the fleet. - Four Teslas, Rivian.
23:39 I mean, we got a bunch of other stuff, too.
23:40 - Renault, do you still got the Twins?
23:41 - I have a Twizy. - You do?
23:43 - Yeah, I've got a Twizy.
23:44 I have two first-gen RAV4 EVs.
23:48 I've got a couple 1970s Commuticars.
23:50 I like the weird stuff.
23:51 - Is the RAV4 EV still going, running?
23:54 - One of them, no.
23:55 We just started a new channel called Out of Spec Renew,
23:58 which is like how to preserve cars,
24:00 how to recycle batteries,
24:01 how to take a battery out of a car
24:03 and use it for stationary storage.
24:05 And so part of the story is,
24:06 what do you do with these old, aging cars?
24:08 - Right, how'd you get it, by the way?
24:09 'Cause I thought Toyota bought all this back.
24:11 - No, there's a lady in Texas, I mean, I bought them now,
24:13 but she had them for four grand for both
24:15 with the original paddle chargers,
24:17 just a Craigslist ad, and a viewer sent it to me.
24:20 I just called her immediately.
24:21 I'm like, I honestly wanted the paddle chargers.
24:24 I think they're called MagnaCharge, J1773.
24:27 I'm like, I want those more than the RAV4s,
24:28 but if they come with the cars, great.
24:30 (everyone laughs)
24:32 Yeah, so I got 'em all.
24:35 - What else, what else, what else?
24:36 - Combustion stuff we have as well, but electric.
24:39 - No, combustion, we can talk.
24:40 - I have a couple Range Rovers.
24:42 I'm a Land Rover nerd, so I love off-roading.
24:45 I drive often my classic Range Rover every day.
24:48 Her name's Judy.
24:49 I've got a Polestar 1.
24:50 - What year's the, Polestar 1, we'll come back to it.
24:53 What year's the Range Rover?
24:54 - That's a '91.
24:55 - Ooh, ooh, you know, '91, I would have,
24:59 okay, I think it was '90, the first press car I ever drove
25:02 when I was 15. - That's round headlights.
25:05 - Yep, round headlights, yeah.
25:06 - My friend's father was an automotive journalist,
25:09 and we had our permits, and we went off-roading
25:10 in a Range Rover, just showed up,
25:12 and he's like, you guys got your permits, you can drive.
25:14 - Hell yeah, man, back in the day,
25:16 must have been so fun to be a journalist.
25:18 - It's pretty fun now.
25:20 - That's, yeah, let's be honest, yeah, we can.
25:23 - Year old, that was a year old.
25:25 - No, 1990. - Oh, okay.
25:27 - Yeah, I was 15.
25:28 But I am old, yeah.
25:31 - I wasn't even born in '90.
25:33 - Jesus Christ.
25:34 All right, well, it's been nice, Kyle.
25:37 - We'll get there.
25:38 So-- - Sorry, sorry.
25:40 - So you have Polestar, you have Polestar 1?
25:42 - Yeah, Polestar 1, we have an e-tron,
25:44 one of the full-size e-trons.
25:46 - You mentioned, I'd listen to that,
25:47 I listened to it on the Smoking Tire.
25:49 You still recommend e-tron?
25:51 - E-tron's great, they got some weird recall stuff,
25:53 that I'm not sure what's going on with,
25:54 I gotta dig into it.
25:55 - Which e-tron?
25:56 - Just the full-size SUV e-tron.
25:59 - The Q7 with the version.
26:02 - Yeah, it's just very comfortable, it's a nice cruiser.
26:04 - They're nice, they just need more range.
26:05 - Yeah, the range suck.
26:06 That charging's good, though,
26:07 it just sits at 150 kilowatts to 80%,
26:10 so for like, actually road tripping,
26:12 it's the same exact road tripping time
26:14 as our Model 3 performance.
26:15 - Oh, interesting.
26:16 - So just hopping station to station,
26:18 it doesn't actually matter between the two.
26:19 - But for daily, I mean, I've borrowed a,
26:22 I mean, like for instance, the GT,
26:25 especially the RS e-tron GT.
26:27 Like, boy, if I had 160 grand, I'd just buy one, I love it.
26:31 - But the way to do it is buy those used.
26:33 - Yeah, what are they now?
26:34 - They're in the 50s now.
26:34 - Are they?
26:35 - Or maybe RS is in the 50s.
26:37 - Taycan's and GT's are good.
26:38 - The RS, boy, that's a nice,
26:40 and I think it's the best looking and the best handling.
26:43 I love the way it drives.
26:44 - I have to disagree with you, but I like the car.
26:46 - You don't like the way it looks or drives?
26:47 - Both, I think the Taycan's better in both areas.
26:49 - Oh, no way.
26:50 - Yeah, totally.
26:51 - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
26:52 The new Taycan, I haven't driven the new Taycan.
26:54 - No, new Taycan's crazy.
26:55 - Yeah, I haven't driven that yet.
26:56 Okay, so let's stick with Porsche.
26:59 So you just drove the Macan EV.
27:01 - Yeah.
27:02 - Macan EV.
27:03 - I drove the prototype.
27:05 - Yep, I did that one.
27:06 - It seemed super complete.
27:07 You went to the south of France.
27:10 Your opinion.
27:10 - What did you drive, where did you drive?
27:12 - We were in Antibes, and so they just had
27:15 like a local mountain route around,
27:17 and typically I don't follow the routes,
27:19 but on that one, they actually had a great route.
27:20 - Oh, you were on Route Napoleon.
27:22 - I don't even know.
27:23 - Yeah, you were on--
27:23 - It says turn left, turn right.
27:24 - You were on Route Napoleon, which is like the best road
27:26 in the whole, out of Monaco?
27:28 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:29 I don't actually know if we were on that one,
27:31 but the roads were amazing,
27:32 and so we were going through these tunnels with like--
27:34 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:35 - Cool, yeah, it was cool.
27:36 (laughing)
27:37 But like, you know, it's a Macan,
27:38 so like it's not meant to be a performance car,
27:40 but it was--
27:41 - Well, it is, I mean, it's a performance SUV.
27:42 - The sportiest in the segment, it's got a Porsche badge,
27:45 but most Macan owners drive around here.
27:47 - Of course.
27:48 - In the city.
27:49 - You know this, I remember when I drove the prototype,
27:51 they said, you know, we're Porsche,
27:54 so everything gets offered on summer tires,
27:56 but all the ones you're driving are on all seasons,
27:58 because 99% of Macan owners pick all,
28:00 and I was like, that's depressing.
28:02 - Yeah, sure.
28:02 - Come on, 99%?
28:05 - Is it really that high?
28:06 That's crazy, yeah, wow.
28:07 - And like, that's just--
28:08 - It's all seasons, baby.
28:09 - Are the worst things in the whole world.
28:10 - Yeah, no seasons.
28:11 - No seasons, yeah.
28:12 - But anyway, so you're saying it's just a nice SUV,
28:16 like what--
28:17 - It's really nice, I mean, so some specs on the car,
28:20 maybe for the viewers who don't know,
28:21 it's 100 kilowatt hour pack, 95 usable,
28:24 dual motor only at the moment.
28:26 I think they'll do a rear wheel drive in the future.
28:28 The top spec turbo and the four,
28:31 the two launch specifications.
28:33 - There'll be a GTS in between 'em.
28:34 - Yeah, and a 4S, I was in a prototype
28:36 that said 4S on the screen, so I'm like, you know,
28:38 you know that they're gonna be--
28:39 - It's Porsche, there's no secrets.
28:41 - No secrets, we know what's coming.
28:43 And I hope they do actually something spicier
28:44 than the turbo, 'cause there's room
28:46 if you really want a performance Macan.
28:47 I've spent a lot of time in the combustion Macans,
28:51 and the electric one just feels like a whole step above
28:54 in terms of chassis, it feels more sorted.
28:56 You know, it's purpose built now to be a car.
28:59 - You mean it's no longer an Audi.
29:00 - It's no longer an Audi with the engine flipped around
29:02 that bounced every time you drove it hard.
29:04 - I'm glad you said, 'cause everyone's always like,
29:06 oh, Porsche's not, and I go, but Macan sucks.
29:08 - Hyatt's so much better than Macan.
29:11 What do you think about that?
29:12 - Yes, 100% agree, except for,
29:15 I only drove it on the launch,
29:16 but the base Cayenne is pretty whatever.
29:19 I know they just refreshed it.
29:21 But I got, for years, I'm like,
29:25 no, don't get a Macan, get anything else.
29:27 - They were always the worst Porsche.
29:29 And I mean, still, worst Porsche is pretty good.
29:31 - I told my cousin to buy the Gen 1 Macan.
29:34 - But again, the engine blew up.
29:35 - Yeah, they're not--
29:36 - But people blindly, because there's a Porsche,
29:38 I'm like, why would you, if you actually like driving,
29:41 turns out most people don't like driving.
29:42 - Well, okay, let me ask you something.
29:44 Did you feel, how was the software,
29:49 the screens, the electrical architecture in that car,
29:52 any noticeable flaws or gaps?
29:54 - So these are the questions
29:55 that we need to talk about more, software.
29:57 I need to become better at reviewing software,
30:00 connected experiences, because this is what
30:02 actually most of my viewership cares about,
30:04 not can you go sideways, which is what I care about.
30:07 - Yeah, well, real quick, we should,
30:09 so Kyle and I were recently in South Carolina
30:12 on a track, a BMW.
30:14 This dude can drive.
30:15 Like, I was like, what is happening?
30:18 Like, I don't know why I assumed you couldn't,
30:20 and again, I really don't watch car videos.
30:22 I've never seen your videos, but like,
30:25 the i5, like, which is a wonderful car, by the way,
30:31 we could talk about that, but I'm like,
30:33 following the instructor, and I'm pretty hard
30:35 on the instructor, he's sideways.
30:36 - Yeah, I was just doing drift laps.
30:38 - The whole way, it was insane.
30:41 And then the M3 CS, you were rocking that thing.
30:44 - Yeah, I love driving.
30:45 I'm not the best driver, no question.
30:47 - You're close, actually.
30:49 You're pretty--
30:49 - If I were to put some effort in in training,
30:51 I think there could be something maybe there,
30:53 but I think I can drive better than the average
30:56 buyer of a vehicle, which I need to be
30:58 a little bit above average to review a car.
31:00 And to me, that's important.
31:01 So I go training--
31:02 - You're a lot above average.
31:03 I mean, again, I hang out with a lot of people
31:06 that do our job.
31:07 So anyway, just a compliment.
31:09 - I learned that on the Ioniq 5 N launch,
31:11 which is like, oh my God.
31:13 How do these people review cars?
31:14 So I'm not naming names, but holy cow.
31:16 - Please do, go ahead.
31:17 Nobody listens to this guy.
31:18 - But at the break, I can figure out who's on his wave.
31:20 (laughing)
31:21 - Oh yeah, let's do it.
31:22 - I can do that.
31:22 - Nobody listens to this guy.
31:23 - Oh, he's on--
31:24 - But it was fun.
31:25 They had a little time thing.
31:26 (laughing)
31:27 No, no, your guy was good.
31:28 There's no issue.
31:29 (laughing)
31:32 - Yeah.
31:32 - I didn't even know who our guy was.
31:33 - No, but you're saying your viewers
31:35 care about software and not driving.
31:36 - Well, I think there's, ultimately,
31:38 I think my job is to review a complete vehicle.
31:41 And I think my understanding of operating systems,
31:44 laws regarding what can be in a vehicle
31:46 from an OS standpoint are certainly, that's lacking.
31:50 And I feel like I've spent some time with Chinese reviewers.
31:53 - Okay, interesting.
31:54 - And they are mostly influencers, not so much car reviewers.
31:57 There isn't this deep culture of car testing there.
32:00 - Sure.
32:01 - But all they care about is software and battery chemistry.
32:04 And I'm like, oh, these guys are legit.
32:06 If I can take, my goal is to take the like,
32:08 old school, hardcore testing of cars,
32:11 blend it with what, you know, software
32:13 and connected experiences and things
32:15 that consumers care about, put that all into a review,
32:17 and then recommend a car based off of that knowledge.
32:20 That would be great, but I'm still a long ways away from that.
32:22 - Yeah, my man, speaking my language.
32:24 But hey, the original question was, Macan.
32:27 - Yeah.
32:28 - How do you feel?
32:29 And here, let me give you the setup,
32:30 'cause there's a point to this.
32:31 - Okay.
32:32 - Macan was massively delayed.
32:34 Because--
32:35 - Years.
32:36 - The argument was, they did not have
32:38 the electrical architecture ready, and the software piece.
32:42 So now that it's here, the question is.
32:45 - Yeah, it works, it works fine.
32:46 - Is it good?
32:47 - Oof, no, it's not good.
32:49 Compared to a Rivian, which is incredible with software,
32:52 and I know you know with SEMAT Rivian,
32:53 like the software team's amazing.
32:55 Tesla has great software.
32:58 This is not on that level.
32:59 There are things, there are competencies in the Macan
33:02 that are better bits and pieces.
33:04 For example, the route planner that tells you
33:06 where you have to stop, preconditions the battery,
33:09 and chooses those stations, is faster than any route planner
33:13 I've tested in any vehicle.
33:14 I put in, it wasn't this trip,
33:16 but I filmed the car in a studio near Vaisak,
33:19 and I put in someplace in Portugal,
33:22 and it was like, bam, one and a half seconds,
33:24 it knew all the stops.
33:26 That's thousands of kilometers.
33:28 - As far as you know, though, right?
33:30 Because once you start driving,
33:31 it's supposed to change, right?
33:32 - And it does.
33:33 - Okay.
33:34 - I tested that on this trip.
33:35 It's like, okay, I put in a thing,
33:36 drove the nuts off of it, and it's like, oh, stop early.
33:39 - Yeah.
33:39 - Right there, instantly.
33:40 I was like, that was great.
33:41 So the Porsche guys obsess over fast traveling
33:45 with this car, which is what I care about in an EV.
33:47 I'm always on the road driving.
33:48 We got shoots everywhere.
33:49 I drive electric.
33:50 I think it's fun to road trip electric,
33:52 and the fact that the car, you know,
33:54 I can set it to get to a charger at 3% state of charge,
33:57 which is how I like to drive.
33:58 - Oh, you can do that?
33:59 - Yeah.
34:00 - Oh, interesting.
34:00 - And Mercedes lets you do it as well, which is cool,
34:02 but that's where Rivian's actually lacking pretty hardcore
34:04 in the route planning district.
34:06 - Well, didn't they buy a better route planner
34:08 and it was supposed to help in some way?
34:10 - Yeah, I haven't seen much benefit from that purchase yet.
34:12 - Okay.
34:13 - Yeah.
34:14 - What--
34:14 - Macan's good overall.
34:15 Like, it's expensive compared to combustion Macan.
34:17 Combustion Macan was always, actually,
34:19 people were surprised at how inexpensive it was
34:21 compared to their mental impact.
34:23 I mean, you used to be able to get a four-cylinder Macan
34:24 for 55?
34:25 - Yeah, something like that.
34:26 - Yeah.
34:27 - 56, yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:28 - And I was like, okay, that's cool.
34:29 This is not that.
34:30 This is 90.
34:30 - I do think of Porsche's bizarre fascination
34:34 with no one-pedal driving.
34:36 Like, they're really gonna die on that hill.
34:38 And I, again, I was just driving around yesterday,
34:40 one pedal, and I was like,
34:42 and I knew the Macan review was coming,
34:44 and I'm like, what the hell is wrong with it?
34:46 Anyways, what do you think?
34:47 - Yeah, it's a philosophical issue
34:49 because the Q6 e-tron, which is the sister car to the Macan,
34:52 has one-pedal driving.
34:53 - Yeah.
34:54 - And it's the same architecture, same platform.
34:55 - No, it's just Porsche's obsession.
34:56 - It is just, they don't want it.
34:58 However, Dr. Robert Meyer, who's responsible for the Macan,
35:03 has become a friend over reviewing the cars over the years,
35:06 and I've really pushed him on this,
35:07 and he says that they are now considering
35:09 putting in one-pedal driving
35:11 through an over-the-air update to the Macan,
35:13 which I'm like, you have to do that.
35:14 Because if you, I posted the video this morning,
35:16 there's already 10, 20, 30 comments of people
35:19 that are like, who knows if they would have bought it
35:21 in the first place.
35:21 - Right, right.
35:22 - That are like, I'm not buying that car
35:23 until it has whatever.
35:24 - Right.
35:25 It's just such, like, again, if you spend time with EVs.
35:28 Now look, I have a lot of friends that go,
35:30 I wanna try your Rivian out,
35:31 and like, they'll drive it for five minutes.
35:32 I hate it.
35:33 Why?
35:34 Take your foot off the gas and the brakes come on.
35:36 - So jerky.
35:37 - I go, yeah.
35:38 That's by design.
35:39 Actually, you know, you should increase it.
35:40 It's even better.
35:41 - Yeah.
35:42 - But, like, it's just, I mean,
35:44 I remember on the development drive,
35:47 I mean, first of all,
35:48 these are the grumpiest engineers I've ever encountered.
35:49 I mean, literally, it's the only one,
35:50 I'm like, so is this bigger than the old one?
35:52 Like, arms folded, like, I don't know, you know.
35:54 It's a bitchy dude.
35:56 I literally parked it next to an old Macan.
35:58 But, you know, and I'm like,
36:00 it actually can't be more efficient.
36:02 I'm like, there's no way that coasting
36:04 can be more efficient than regenerating.
36:06 I refute your argument.
36:08 - We can get into the numbers.
36:09 It's there, it is more efficient to coast.
36:12 - It can't be.
36:13 Well, first, okay, if you do it like,
36:16 you're a half mile before a red light.
36:18 - Yeah.
36:19 - Okay, no one drives like that.
36:20 And no Porsche driver drives like that.
36:22 - You'll still recuperate energy in the Macan,
36:24 even without one pedal driving,
36:25 because it's a blended brake pedal.
36:27 - Yeah, well, but if you just lift.
36:30 - Yeah, it's no different than hitting the brake pedal.
36:33 Because it's brake by wire in the Macan now.
36:35 - Yeah.
36:36 - And Taycan always did a little bit more
36:37 friction brake blending than I would like.
36:39 But Macan pretty much is just, you know,
36:41 in the way that it's set up,
36:43 if you have one pedal driving off,
36:44 or regen off completely, I should say.
36:46 You lift and the car goes to zero motor power,
36:48 which is not totally true,
36:49 'cause it's dual permanent magnet.
36:51 - And it's always doing a little bit.
36:52 - You always have flux losses.
36:53 - Right.
36:55 - You know, if you're just coasting,
36:57 the idea is that you don't have any conversion losses.
37:00 The motors are AC.
37:01 So every time you convert DC to AC and AC back to DC,
37:05 you'll have an efficiency loss.
37:06 Let's say you can recapture at 70% efficiency
37:09 from a motor into a battery pack.
37:11 There's heat loss there.
37:12 There's conversion losses.
37:13 And even if you do have to brake in the Macan though,
37:17 when you hit the brake pedal, it's just using regen.
37:19 - I understand that.
37:20 What I'm saying though,
37:22 like an electric motor is 60% efficient.
37:25 In other words, 60% of the energy
37:27 goes to moving the vehicle forward.
37:29 And 40% is- - It's like 95, but yeah.
37:31 - No, no, no, it's 60%.
37:32 And then when you add in regen, you get to 80 to 90%.
37:36 That's how EVs work.
37:37 So that's why it drives me crazy with Porsche.
37:41 - I think you get the same benefit either way.
37:45 Yeah, because either way,
37:45 you're either outputting or regenning.
37:47 Whether you're doing that off throttle or on the brake pedal,
37:50 that's just a user input difference.
37:52 - I see what you're saying.
37:53 Okay, so you're saying the efficient, okay.
37:55 Eh.
37:56 - The motors don't care.
37:57 It's, you know, they're being told to output or regen.
38:00 And it's whether you're being-
38:02 - But isn't there time, to put it in a weightlifting term,
38:04 time under tension?
38:05 Like if you just do one little,
38:08 I guess you're right, I guess you're right.
38:09 All right, anyways.
38:10 It drives me, it just drives me nuts,
38:12 the Porsche thing. - There is some truth.
38:13 I mean, if we get really into the details
38:15 to reducing the amount of regen that you're doing,
38:17 like if you can quickly transition to regen,
38:20 because there's I squared R,
38:21 which means that your losses-
38:23 - Oh, you've lost me.
38:24 I squared R?
38:25 - Well, your losses are- - What's I?
38:26 - Right, so, I mean, yes.
38:28 Essentially, the way that it works
38:30 is the more current that you have,
38:33 on an exponential basis, the more losses you'll have.
38:35 So 100 amps, let's just say, are being flowed.
38:38 You'll have X number of losses.
38:40 At 200 amps, it's not double,
38:42 it's significantly more. - Yeah, it's an order
38:43 of magnitude, okay.
38:44 - So if you can reduce the amount of regen you're doing,
38:47 and even prolong the time,
38:48 you'll actually get a little bit more back into the battery,
38:50 but we're talking nothing that would ever show up
38:52 in a result. - Right, right, right, right.
38:53 - This is a great point, a great moment
38:56 for us to change gears here, okay?
38:59 Well, 'cause I feel like we'll talk about
39:01 all these cool new EVs and cars
39:03 throughout the rest of this,
39:05 now definitely two-part conversation,
39:07 but I have to ask at this very moment,
39:09 who the hell are you?
39:10 Like, I've been trying to figure out,
39:14 are you, you didn't, where does the knowledge,
39:17 the interest, the passion, I squared R,
39:21 and you did not go, as far as I can tell,
39:24 you don't have an electrical engineering degree,
39:26 or a CS degree. - No, no.
39:27 - Like, who-- - College dropout.
39:29 - Yeah, yeah, one year is all I gave college.
39:31 - You grew up in Connecticut? - Yep.
39:34 - And then you went to, so you went to high school there,
39:37 and went to college in High Point for one year?
39:40 - Yep. - And studied what?
39:42 What were you trying to,
39:42 what were you going to do? - Oh, honestly, nothing.
39:43 I didn't even show up to class.
39:45 There was nothing interesting going on there.
39:47 It was a cool school.
39:48 I was like, they have a steakhouse on campus,
39:49 that's where I want to go. - Oh, that is cool.
39:51 - So then in high school, did, were you like,
39:54 I got a five in AP Physics. - No, no, no.
39:57 - Like, what, like, what-- - Cs.
39:59 - You're a C student. - I was a C student, good job.
40:02 - Okay. - D and C, never As.
40:03 - And you loved-- - I got one A in history.
40:05 - D in gym, didn't even show up.
40:07 - I got Ds in French. (laughing)
40:09 - Okay, so you love, you, you loved cars your whole life.
40:14 - Yeah, oh, always a car, and my dad's a car enthusiast.
40:17 So I got a lot of the car love from him.
40:19 But he's not a super nerd, I would say.
40:21 But he's always had, I was lucky,
40:23 he always had cool cars.
40:24 - Well, then let me ask you this.
40:25 What else were you obsessive about before cars?
40:28 - Nothing. - Nothing?
40:29 - It is, my whole life is cars.
40:30 - Wow. - There is not one other
40:31 passion. - Nothing, no other interests?
40:33 - Zero. - And I should have asked
40:34 this, I should have asked this. (laughing)
40:37 - Not even a hint, like, I look at your profile
40:39 I'm like watching you, you know, do the card thing,
40:41 the strongman challenge, and whiskey, and watches,
40:44 and I'm like, I wish I had even remotely something else.
40:47 - Wow. - It is just cars.
40:49 - Okay, and then, oh, hey, hey,
40:51 because you said it earlier,
40:52 you weren't even born yet in 1990?
40:53 - No, I was born in '95.
40:55 - Oh my God. - Oh my God, you're 29?
40:57 - Yeah, 28, I turned 29. (laughing)
41:01 I'm a baby. - You're killing me.
41:03 - So real quick, we met, you ran up to me at an airport,
41:06 if memory serves. - Yeah, years ago.
41:08 - Memory serves, and you were like,
41:10 hey man, big fan, or something like that.
41:12 I'm gonna break the cannonball record in EV.
41:17 And I was like, oh, sounds like hell.
41:18 - Yeah, I know, that's what you said to me too,
41:19 you said, that sounds awful.
41:21 I'm like, I love this, 'cause it is, it's not fun,
41:23 but I'm a nerd. - That must have been 2018?
41:27 Or 2017? - Yeah, I think 2018,
41:28 something like that. - 'Cause I listened
41:29 to your, I just listened to one for you to record in 2019,
41:32 and you had just done it. - Yeah, yeah.
41:34 But I was doing a scouting run for that,
41:35 I was taking it so seriously. - Right, well, that's,
41:37 I mean, look, when, I think I might have told you this,
41:40 and you probably knew this, but when Alex Roy did it,
41:43 JF Musial, who is a, we all know him,
41:46 inside baseball, he films a lot of stuff
41:48 for a lot of car companies. - Mostly a lot of Porsche
41:49 stuff. - A lot of Porsche stuff.
41:50 - A lot of Cadillac stuff. - Yeah.
41:52 - In fact, I'm in a new Le Mans documentary.
41:55 Anyways, a little plug for JF, but he had JF
41:59 pre-run the route and go to each gas station.
42:02 So you'd pull off a highway, - I remember that.
42:03 - There'd be like four gas stations,
42:05 and he'd have JF time each pump.
42:08 (laughing)
42:09 So Alex knew exactly which pump at which gas station
42:11 was the, which was brilliant.
42:12 - Yeah, that's the same approach we took to the EV thing.
42:15 - Right, right, right. - And Alex had been doing,
42:17 I already talked to Alex at the time,
42:18 he was aware of what we were doing,
42:20 and since we've become friends since then, of course,
42:22 which is great, and yeah, I mean,
42:24 the EV cannonball stuff is not,
42:26 look at how fast I can drive across the country,
42:28 I was interested in it because I wanted to see
42:31 and benchmark how quickly you could road trip a vehicle.
42:35 You know, at what point do electric cars and gas cars
42:38 reach parity on a road trip?
42:39 - Right. - And I think the only way
42:41 to prove that is to road trip.
42:42 - Okay, I wanna get to your road trip
42:44 'cause you've done a lot, but let's stay in high school
42:46 or your early years.
42:48 Who were your, 'cause god dang, you're so young,
42:51 well, who, what were your influences?
42:54 And you don't have to say Motor Trend because it's--
42:56 - No, I watched a lot of Motor Trend.
42:58 I was a consumer of car content, as a car enthusiast,
43:00 I would watch everything, more watch than read.
43:03 I think a lot of the, you know,
43:05 I feel like there's generations to car journalists, right?
43:08 So you have the ones that were inspired by reading articles
43:12 and then now you have my generation,
43:14 which is inspired from the Top Gear age
43:16 and your videos on Motor Trend and others
43:19 where we're like, this is awesome,
43:21 that's what I wanna do.
43:22 - And it's so funny, I mean, I know that
43:25 and I see it all the time, but like,
43:27 when I was back doing those videos,
43:28 I was like, god, making videos is hell.
43:30 Writing's fun, I still like to write, it's fun.
43:33 And like, videos are just long days on set.
43:35 That's not what you're doing,
43:36 you're doing kind of like more stream of consciousness,
43:39 not, you know, you're not doing like,
43:41 perfect, do it again, nine times in a row.
43:43 - Everything is one take. - From 30 angles, yeah, yeah.
43:46 - So then who, you mentioned Top Gear
43:48 and thank you for the flattery, the video piece.
43:51 - He was pointing at me.
43:52 - I know, I meant Motor Trend in general.
43:54 - I remember watching the days of your testing stuff
43:57 when you're out in the desert doing the deliberations
43:59 on Car of the Year or whatever.
44:00 - Very slow.
44:01 - But what, if you had to point to a single influence,
44:04 is there anyone in particular you're like,
44:05 holy moly, it was always so-and-so?
44:07 - No, I kind of stumbled into this, I think.
44:10 You know, I was not,
44:11 it was not my intention to become a reviewer.
44:14 - Oh, really? - Yeah.
44:16 I mean, I was always like, that's my dream.
44:17 I don't think I could have ever achieved--
44:19 - So what did you, you just wanted to do fun stuff with cars
44:22 and then you just started documenting it
44:24 and people started paying attention?
44:25 - That is 100% how it happened.
44:27 I had a couple friends,
44:28 I lived in North Carolina after college,
44:30 and not that I graduated, but after I finished college.
44:33 - After you dropped out.
44:34 - After I dropped out of college.
44:36 - And any time there's a successful college dropout,
44:38 I love it.
44:39 There's a lot of unsuccessful ones.
44:40 - Yeah, sure, of course.
44:41 But we would just go out,
44:43 we'd be going to the Tale of the Dragon,
44:44 we'd be going to track days.
44:45 - What were you driving back then?
44:47 - I always had something spicy,
44:49 I always spent way too much on a car.
44:50 I was like, I don't really have any other passions,
44:55 like I mentioned, don't need a big house,
44:57 don't drink a lot, nothing like that.
44:59 I was just like cars.
45:00 - But give me some context for 18, 19 year old,
45:03 were you driving like a--
45:04 - John Cooper Works GP at the time.
45:06 - All right, Minnie Cooper.
45:07 - Yeah, had a bunch of Minnies.
45:08 - First gen?
45:09 - So I had a second gen, the R56 one.
45:11 I had countrymen that we tuned up to shoot flames,
45:14 that was really fun.
45:15 I had a--
45:16 - Very North Carolina of you.
45:17 - Yeah, right, that was actually back in Connecticut,
45:19 but I took that car to North Carolina.
45:21 Yeah, so a bunch of Minnies.
45:23 I had a Range Rover guy,
45:25 so I had a couple Range Rovers.
45:29 What else did I have back then?
45:30 A BMW M3 manual.
45:33 - I don't mean to be insulting,
45:34 are you independently wealthy?
45:36 - No, no, I just don't follow me for financial advice.
45:39 Every penny that I get just goes into a car.
45:41 - Right.
45:42 - Yeah, but I don't take, there's no outside,
45:44 a lot of people ask me, oh, who pays for all?
45:46 I'm like, I have never taken an outside investment
45:49 from anyone, I mean, even including my parents.
45:51 They helped me buy my initial filming gear
45:53 when I started out of spec, but that's it.
45:56 - So now your dad works for you.
45:58 - Yeah, now my dad works for us.
45:59 - But it's fun, it's great.
46:01 - When I started doing car reviews 19 years ago,
46:04 when you were born, being born,
46:06 my mom bought me my first camera,
46:07 which I had to use for back in the day.
46:10 - Yeah, I feel like we had maybe $5,000,
46:13 'cause I thought making a YouTube channel,
46:14 you needed a bunch of stuff, so I was like,
46:16 we need a drone, we need this.
46:17 So my dad was like, here you go, pay me back.
46:20 It was nice, and I did pay him back.
46:22 But I found out that I film everything on my iPhone.
46:25 - Yeah, no, no, I noticed that.
46:26 - I was like, you don't actually need a lot of equipment.
46:28 - And actually, I find your stuff pretty unique.
46:30 I've seen a few videos.
46:32 It's pretty unique in that, first of all,
46:34 you're much more comprehensive.
46:36 I mean, you put out routinely hour plus to two hour videos,
46:39 which is crazy.
46:41 - Yeah, I mean, yeah.
46:42 - It's crazy, 'cause we're always doing
46:44 nine to 10 minute videos.
46:46 That's how people consume them.
46:49 But it seems like your audience--
46:50 - They love it. - They love it.
46:51 - I don't make video length to try and game algorithms
46:54 or anything like that.
46:55 It's all just-- - Smart, smart, smart.
46:57 - My viewpoint is if someone's really gonna spend
46:59 a lot of money on a car,
47:00 let me tell them everything possible,
47:02 'cause everyone else in the business
47:03 is making consumable short content.
47:05 - And I think, honestly, it helps you stand out a lot,
47:08 because I've been trained to think about,
47:11 all right, you're gonna have three minutes
47:13 to talk about the car.
47:14 That's like, if you're doing a 10 minute video,
47:16 usually I was doing a comparison.
47:18 There'd be, the intro's a bunch of nonsense.
47:21 It'd be personal insults with the other host,
47:22 but you have three minutes per car to really review it.
47:25 So I wouldn't even look at the screens.
47:27 Who cares about what the third screen is?
47:30 It's surface stuff.
47:31 But I'm watching your stuff, and you're really like,
47:34 you're going through some screen on, I think a Rivian.
47:36 I'm like, I didn't know that screen was there.
47:38 You do every single, like Doug DeMuro style,
47:41 pointed everything in the car, but also pretty intelligent.
47:46 You're not just like, look at that, look at that.
47:47 - Well, I mean, I'm learning along with our audience
47:49 as well, their cars are changing.
47:51 I don't know everything.
47:52 I always say we're seven years behind
47:54 what's actually being worked on.
47:55 - Oh yeah, 100%, yeah, more than that.
47:58 - So, but hang on, how, the stuff that you're doing,
48:02 especially with the chargers and the charging networks,
48:04 and if you're not, by the way, we're so far into this
48:07 that we have not even dropped, you're like,
48:09 who the hell is this guy?
48:10 Which is a question I just asked.
48:12 Out of spec, Kyle, on YouTube, you got--
48:15 - Out of spec reviews.
48:16 - Out of spec, we have nine, how many channels do you have now?
48:19 - So the intention of the master plan,
48:20 which that's the only plan I have,
48:22 is here's what I want to do.
48:23 There's very little planning that happens
48:24 at out of spec, is 17 channels.
48:26 I think that's a portfolio that I think covers
48:28 everything that I'm interested in when it comes to vehicles,
48:32 how we power them, how we use them.
48:33 - So is it fair, for the YouTube,
48:35 for the second largest search engine on the internet,
48:37 is it fair to just type in out of spec, Kyle,
48:39 and we'll hit one of yours?
48:40 - Yeah, just type in out of spec.
48:41 - Out of spec?
48:42 - Yeah, you'll find something you like.
48:43 - Okay, so you go so deep, and you're serious,
48:47 you got a C in physics, how do you,
48:49 where does the learning of kilowatt, megawatt, amp,
48:53 like-- - Using it.
48:54 I come from a hardcore user experience, right?
48:56 I mean, especially planning for the cannonball days
48:59 and figuring out EVs, I wanted to know
49:01 what the limitations were, how I can work around them.
49:04 And I feel like just living with the products
49:06 and just trying to figure out
49:07 why is my charging slowing down,
49:09 why is this better than that?
49:12 You just learn stuff along the way.
49:13 - Well, but like when you go to
49:15 the dumbass Electrify America, like the panel--
49:18 - Ah, I've been to that one too.
49:19 - Right, and it's so inscrutable,
49:22 and it's literally showing like two numbers,
49:24 and you're like, how much can you,
49:25 I mean, what do you do?
49:26 Do you open your phone, do you get a physics textbook?
49:28 Like what, like-- - Well, you start hacking
49:29 into the car's CAN systems, and you're like,
49:30 what's the car requesting?
49:32 And what are the temperatures of the battery?
49:34 And what's the temperature of the handle?
49:35 And a lot of it is thermal-based for electric vehicles,
49:39 so you start getting a little temperature gun,
49:41 and you play around, and yeah, there's no rulebook.
49:44 - He's getting very curious mind,
49:45 and luckily-- - Do you ever care
49:46 about nothing else?
49:47 - Yeah, right, do you ever-- (laughing)
49:48 - Do you ever shock yourself real bad?
49:50 - No, I am worried about that, though.
49:53 - So you're going in and touching the orange cables?
49:55 - No, no, no, no, no, I'm not, that would be a bad day.
49:58 Me and mechanical, working on anything
50:00 doesn't go so well, yeah.
50:02 - Well, here's the real question, though, right?
50:03 - So strictly to a laptop, you're kinda,
50:05 or whatever you can clone in.
50:07 - I'm not a hacker, I'm not an engineer,
50:09 I'm just a, I would say a hardcore user
50:11 that films videos of driving stuff.
50:14 - But here's the real question, right?
50:15 So you're a young car enthusiast,
50:18 why the hell EVs, because I know more young car enthusiasts
50:22 than I can count, they're like, "Man, EVs are stupid,
50:24 "EVs are a scam, EVs are a fad."
50:26 Why, how did you become interested in EVs?
50:29 - I think I always have been.
50:31 I remember my dad had a Prius,
50:33 so my dad is a car enthusiast,
50:35 and I think he's got a little bit of the same fascination
50:38 I have, he went from a E60 M5 to a Prius.
50:41 - V10, wow, why, why?
50:43 - Because he was like, "Look at the battery
50:44 "interacting with the motor and all this stuff,
50:46 "and oh, you can gain efficiency."
50:48 And I think a lot of it comes from
50:50 just trying to learn about that stuff.
50:51 - So you found, you're enthusiastic about efficiency.
50:55 - Yeah, I don't know, I mean, I don't know, maybe.
50:59 - Or are you super clever and you saw an untapped market?
51:03 - Look at this cynic over here.
51:04 - Yeah, I don't think that was it at all.
51:06 - Cynic in the yellow sweater.
51:07 - I definitely have been cynical towards our industry
51:09 not catching up with electric cars fast enough.
51:12 I mean, most-- - Say more about that.
51:13 - Well, we can talk all day about--
51:15 - No, no, let's talk, talk, talk.
51:16 - Well, what do you mean?
51:17 - I think consumers are very ill-informed
51:19 by general automotive reviewers covering electric cars.
51:22 - Nice. - He's looking at us,
51:23 by the way. - No, not necessarily,
51:24 no, no. (laughing)
51:26 - No, it's fine, it's fine. - You guys own
51:27 and live with them, but ultimately it's like,
51:29 you know, I thought, something really woke me up,
51:33 which I thought was cool.
51:34 You know Calvin at Porsche, of course.
51:35 - Sure, yeah, well. - And so Calvin
51:37 and I were talking years ago.
51:38 I was involved, you know, reviewing Taycan
51:40 since the early days, and after a few loans,
51:43 Calvin was like, "I'm no longer loaning Taycans
51:45 "to journalists that don't have home chargers."
51:46 It's not a representative experience
51:49 to give a car and then just complain about charge.
51:51 I can complain about charging all day long,
51:53 but it's not tied to the vehicle.
51:54 - Right, look, I said that the other day.
51:56 I said this insane notion that people that own EVs
52:00 don't do 99% of their charging at home.
52:03 It's just gotta stop, it's just gotta stop.
52:05 And you're right, the journalists perpetuate that.
52:08 - Totally, and I do too, because I focus a lot
52:10 on DC fast charging problems, which I think electric,
52:13 whatever this electric revolution people say
52:15 is gonna happen, will not work until it's as easy
52:17 to charge your electric car as it is filling a gas car.
52:19 - But two things can be true at work,
52:21 'cause me and Farrah, for instance, are infamous, maybe,
52:26 for just making videos bashing Electrify America specifically
52:30 but now I'm bashing EVgo even more.
52:32 And people are like, "Well, how can you like your truck?"
52:36 And I'm like, "'Cause 99% of the time,
52:38 "I wake up and charge you exactly,
52:40 "like if I want 73% on my phone in bed,
52:43 "I say, 'Ah, tomorrow I need three extra percent.'"
52:45 And it's set.
52:47 But I remember, I think it was a car driver,
52:53 I'm gonna say it was like 2004, 2005,
52:55 I was a subscriber, Motor Trend always sucked.
52:57 I get the issue, right?
53:00 And it's just standard month, a car driver,
53:03 and it's like Chubba's editor letter.
53:06 Prius sucks.
53:11 Prius totally sucks, like what a lame car.
53:14 I think Motor Trend just made the Prius the car of the year.
53:17 They were doing a kind of a reaction to it.
53:20 And then Brock Yates, "Hybrids are stupid
53:23 "because they're stupid."
53:25 And like, "A Hummer pollutes less than a Prius."
53:29 Like, you know, that sort of thing.
53:31 Patrick Bedard, I'm calling all these guys out,
53:33 like mathematically proving that a Prius is not efficient.
53:39 And now that zeitgeist of the old grumpy
53:43 enthusiast dudes who hate EVs,
53:45 hybrids are the future, man.
53:48 Oh man.
53:49 - Especially in the last couple of months.
53:51 - But it's just a narrative.
53:52 It's just a shifting narrative.
53:53 - Absolutely.
53:54 - But I think you said it best earlier,
53:55 which is I didn't get into EVs
53:57 because there was a business opportunity
53:59 or because of anything.
54:00 I just thought it was interesting.
54:02 And I like things that move and that are powered
54:04 and that are improving rapidly and keeping pace with it.
54:07 And to be honest, it's sort of a right place, right time.
54:10 There's no way I could have gotten into YouTube or my job
54:13 or building out of spec without electric cars.
54:15 There's no way around that.
54:16 I couldn't have gotten into this and said,
54:17 "I'm just reviewing Paganis and whatever crazy."
54:21 - No, you could have.
54:22 I know a lot of people that do that.
54:22 - Maybe.
54:23 I don't think it would have been as attainable or easy
54:25 because electric cars are, it is a low barrier to entry.
54:28 Not many, even journalists were asking to drive them
54:31 or review them or check them out.
54:32 - Well, and then it's a double whammy because,
54:34 you know, and you know this, like dealerships,
54:37 a lot of people might go in to look at an EV
54:39 and the dealer's like, "Nah."
54:41 - Well, if you think--
54:42 - They shove them in the wrong direction.
54:42 - If you think your average car reviewer is uneducated
54:46 and ill-informed about EVs, the dealers are--
54:50 - Way worse.
54:51 - A little farther behind.
54:52 - No, yeah, except for BMW, I will say.
54:55 - Are they doing a good job?
54:56 - Yeah, yeah.
54:57 Every once in a while, I'll just kind of like, you know,
54:58 take my nephew or something and we'll just go
55:00 to car dealerships just to look at all cars in one place.
55:03 And I talked to BMW about this.
55:06 And since 2017, when I was a thing,
55:09 they've really like, you know,
55:11 hammered down on their dealers, like,
55:13 "Don't shove 'em off."
55:15 Like, you know.
55:16 - Yeah, the dealer has, I mean,
55:17 there's such a huge turnover.
55:18 There's almost a no incentive to do training programs
55:22 and things.
55:22 It's just sell cars.
55:23 - Yeah, exactly.
55:24 - And it's way easier to sell a combustion car
55:26 than an electric car.
55:27 No way around that.
55:28 - But hey, I want to pause right now.
55:33 - And use the restroom.
55:35 - Take a break.
55:35 - And we're back and record part two.
55:36 - And we're going to record part two with Kyle
55:40 and answer some of your questions.
55:42 So I got a ton more.
55:43 - I got a ton of questions.
55:45 - For Kyle.
55:46 I want to get into, you know, more on his background.
55:50 I got a lot of questions about how AutoSpec is working.
55:54 Also.
55:55 - Yeah, and we should talk about what he's actually doing
55:56 that I think is so impressive,
55:58 which is your range test, your tow test.
56:00 - I love testing.
56:01 - Your off-road tow test.
56:02 - I want to hear about your off-road tow testing,
56:03 all the truck testing you've done.
56:04 - Your off-road test.
56:05 - And then we got to talk about--
56:06 - I just want to talk about the state of EVs
56:08 and the consumer, which we just now kind of touched on,
56:10 but there's a lot more I want to go into.
56:11 - And then I got a lot of Rivian stuff.
56:13 - Hell yeah.
56:14 - Part two, ladies and gentlemen,
56:15 please join us for the next episode.
56:17 - Next week.
56:18 - Next week with the man, the myth, the legend,
56:20 Kyle Conner, AutoSpec.
56:21 (upbeat music)
56:24 (upbeat music)
56:26 - The inevitable vodcast brought to you
56:45 by the all electric Nissan Ariya,
56:47 inspired by the future, designed for the now.
56:50 (upbeat music)
56:53 (upbeat music)
56:56 (upbeat music)
56:58 (upbeat music)
57:01 (upbeat music)
57:03 (upbeat music)
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