MotorTrend's Ed Loh & Jonny Lieberman chat with Out of Spec Review Founder
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00:00Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend.
00:16Hi there, and welcome to another episode of The Inevitable.
00:19This is Motor Trend's show about the future of the car,
00:22the future of transportation, mobility,
00:24the future is what's powering the cars,
00:26and boy, do we have an interesting episode for you today
00:29because not only is it our first ever two-parter,
00:33but we just have a great guest.
00:35We'll get to him in a second.
00:36This is Ed Lowe. I'm Johnny Lieberman.
00:38Before we get to the guest, Ed has a message for you.
00:40Yes, The Inevitable podcast is brought to you by
00:43the all-electric Nissan Ariya,
00:45inspired by the future, designed for the now.
00:48And right now, we're going to get into our question of the episode,
00:52and it's a little bit long and specific,
00:54but actually topical, given who we're going to talk to.
00:57It comes from a gentleman who reached out on Instagram in my DMs
01:00by the name of George Acorn, and he says,
01:03I'm on my second Audi e-tron,
01:05and about 100,000 miles of EV driving logged.
01:09I need to replace our internal combustion car,
01:11which just happens to be an RS6.
01:13Yeah, we know George, by the way. Go ahead.
01:15Tempted by Rivian and the smoking deals
01:18on barely-used RS e-tron GTs or Porsche Taycan Cross Turismos,
01:24but I'm afraid of going a two-EV household,
01:27maybe a bridge too far,
01:29and trying to avoid depreciation by selling the RS6,
01:32so going EV might be even worse
01:34when judged on potential depreciation.
01:37What are your thoughts? Very complicated question.
01:39Yeah, but really, the gist of it is,
01:41can you have two EVs and have no other cars?
01:44So, look, you know, if one of them isn't a Tesla
01:49or able to use the Tesla supercharger network,
01:52road trips will be problematic.
01:54However, if you can reliably use the supercharger network,
01:58you can road trip anywhere.
02:00So, you know, if you put 100,000 miles on that Audi e-tron,
02:03you're using it pretty well,
02:05and it's just one of those fear things, you know?
02:07And so our guest who's coming in,
02:09Kyle Connor from Out of Spec Reviews,
02:11you know, he's got five EVs,
02:13but he has a lot of backup internal combustion cars.
02:17But, yeah, look, I think you...
02:20You totally missed...
02:21I thought you were going to go totally different direction.
02:23What about the RS6, baby? Come on.
02:25Oh, I'm not a big fan of the RS6.
02:27What?
02:28E63 is just so much better.
02:29This is an Audi Homer.
02:31And, look, but I will say this,
02:33so if you're worried about two EVs
02:35because you're worried about range,
02:37well, I wouldn't get a slightly used Taycan
02:39or a slightly used...
02:40Fair point.
02:41I love the Audi GT, but their Achilles heel is range.
02:45I've never owned a vehicle I like more than the Rivian R1T.
02:49Get the Rivian R1T.
02:50Okay.
02:51Yeah.
02:52Fair enough.
02:53I don't have anything really to add other than,
02:55look, if you've hit 100,000 miles with your e-tron,
03:00what Johnny said, you're doing pretty good.
03:02You're well ahead of the curve for most EV drivers,
03:05so you probably have it figured out,
03:07and having two wouldn't be a problem.
03:09But if you're worried, get a Tesla
03:12because you're going to have a better charging network,
03:14a bigger charging network, and all the range.
03:16You can get a Lightning.
03:17It's on the Tesla network.
03:18You can get a Rivian.
03:19It's on the Tesla network.
03:20Yeah, but you'll still have...
03:22You've got to find the right...
03:23The range king.
03:24Or it sounds like you're loaded, get a Lucid.
03:26I mean, if you're worried about range,
03:28that Lucid Grand Touring, 516 miles, EPA rated,
03:32and real world's about, you know, 501.
03:35And there's some deals going,
03:36not smoking deals like you can get on these used e-trons
03:40and Cross Turismos, but, you know.
03:43Thank you for the question.
03:45If you'd like us to answer a question on air, ask us.
03:49Go into our Instagram.
03:51Go comment below the YouTube video.
03:53If you're watching, shoot us an email.
03:55MotorTrend at MotorTrend.com.
03:57We will send you swag.
03:58This is a representative sampling
04:00of just some of the swag we might send you.
04:02An inevitable hat, an inevitable t-shirt,
04:05maybe a copy of the magazine.
04:06Yes, we still do a magazine.
04:08We got some swag from Sonatas, who was a guest,
04:11and Arm.
04:12Arm gave us socks,
04:13which is kind of a running joke.
04:15They're arm socks.
04:16We got lots of swag to send you.
04:18Send us your questions.
04:19We'll answer them.
04:20But for now, let's really get into Connor.
04:23Kyle Connor.
04:24Out of spec.
04:25Blew my mind.
04:26Thank you.
04:27You've been saying we should have him on for a long time.
04:30He's arguably the most knowledgeable person
04:32on the Internet when it comes to EV charging,
04:35EVs in general.
04:36Arguably.
04:37What's the argument?
04:38Yeah, he is.
04:39All right.
04:40Without further ado, Kyle Connor.
04:42Woo!
04:43This is a long time coming.
04:45We made it happen.
04:46Thank you so much for coming here.
04:48Thank you also for loaning us your Cyber Beast pickup truck.
04:52Story should be out right about now, I hope.
04:55And that shows you, like,
04:56if you're an OEM without a PR department,
04:59we have to borrow YouTubers' cars.
05:02Which, at this point, I am totally fine with,
05:06because no more can people claim
05:09that we are in the pockets of big EV.
05:12That's right.
05:13They won't even give us the damn vehicles.
05:15But your friend had a question.
05:16We're in the pockets of big Chevy.
05:18Yeah, it was like,
05:19how much did Chevy pay for their blazer EV car of the year?
05:22SUV of the year.
05:23SUV of the year,
05:24which they subsequently had to do a stop sale or recall on.
05:28We felt great about that.
05:29The timing was awesome.
05:31They did not pay anything for the award.
05:34Now, they do pay to license and use the award in advertising,
05:37but that is after the fact.
05:39Okay.
05:40So, yes.
05:41And that is all negotiated by a guy in a suit.
05:43Famously, the guy in the suit, his name is Eric Schwab.
05:45Like, when we named the Model S the car of the year,
05:48I remember him running into your office saying,
05:51Tesla doesn't advertise!
05:53Why the hell did you pick that?
05:55Oh, yeah.
05:56Or where were they when we picked Nissan GT-R one year?
05:58Yeah.
05:59That also.
06:00Total sales volume there was like 2,000.
06:02Right.
06:03Prius was like zero.
06:04The 2003 Prius was like a zero.
06:06They didn't care.
06:07Anyway, that's.
06:08But zero dollars.
06:09I want to join on one of those just to see what the criteria is like,
06:11what the judging is like.
06:12Dude, anytime.
06:13We'd love to have you.
06:14You'd get a kick out of it.
06:15It's really geeky.
06:16Yeah, that's what I'm into.
06:17You know what you should do?
06:18Embed him with the test.
06:19If you want to really go crazy, we'll embed you with the test crew.
06:21Hey, hey, hey.
06:22This is a test.
06:23Let's see how he does on the podcast first.
06:25Yeah.
06:26Let's still see.
06:27Let's see.
06:28Because there's the testing and then there's the judging.
06:30Okay.
06:31Two separate things.
06:32Well, I've learned testing.
06:33Everyone needs to do a better job of testing, including us.
06:36Yeah.
06:37Testing is hardcore.
06:38That's a statement because you do some crazy stuff.
06:41But let's get into it.
06:42Yeah.
06:43Let's just start with some topical news for the headline of this piece
06:47so it does the best on YouTube and our podcast and online as possible.
06:51Literally today Tesla announced Model 3 performance,
06:55and my understanding is you were just coming back from checking it out?
06:59Yeah.
07:00They just had it at the Santa Monica showroom, went over there,
07:02got up underneath it, got to play around with all the stuff,
07:05but have not driven it.
07:07So did you get a tip that it was going to be there
07:11or you just called up and you went or?
07:13A friend of mine who's a real big Tesla enthusiast texted me.
07:16He's like, dude, they pulled it into the showroom.
07:19I guess he had been waiting around.
07:20I don't know.
07:21So, yeah, I just drove over there and they were cool.
07:23And you're a pretty big deal in the EV and car space.
07:27You did not get a heads up?
07:29You're not?
07:30No.
07:31Tesla does work with us on certain things
07:33and not on the Model 3 performance though.
07:36Nothing head up on that car.
07:37You've been like the biggest Model 3 evangelist out there
07:40and one of the longest.
07:41Yeah, but we've always blended that line between media and owner, right?
07:47Yeah, yeah, right.
07:48I buy the cars as my personal vehicles.
07:50I'm not just into Tesla, of course,
07:52but they do a lot of things that annoy me as well.
07:55So I feel like I'm just as harsh as anyone on them.
07:57I was going to say I really enjoyed,
07:59Ed and I were emailing back and forth to each other,
08:02your Cyber Beast balcony thoughts about when is a software defined vehicle,
08:08when should it go on sale.
08:10Right.
08:11And I think you were a little bit, how do I put this,
08:16you were a little bit more forgiving than I would be.
08:19Yeah, sure.
08:20If I were you, I'd be so furious about buying that Cybertruck
08:23and the diffs still don't lock.
08:24Oh, it's crazy.
08:25I bought it for content to make videos like this,
08:27to follow the story of the car.
08:29If you were a normal person.
08:30If it was my personal vehicle, I would have just said,
08:32okay, Tesla, the thing's worth how much in the used market?
08:35$200,000 for a tri-motor one.
08:37I'd be like, do you want to buy it back?
08:39And if they say no, I think you can sell it.
08:41So I'd be like, oh, see you later.
08:42But I can't do that, of course.
08:43Because you and I are both Rivian Irwin T owners.
08:46The reason I got it, the whole reason I was looking for any kind of vehicle
08:49was I wanted a hardcore off-roader.
08:53And the Cyberbeast is supposed to be that.
08:55And if you bought it and it didn't work off-road, I'd be furious.
09:01Yeah, totally.
09:02And I think it's really crazy, of course.
09:05I've made a whole video on the topic.
09:07But it didn't really start around the Cybertruck.
09:10I was actually driving in the canyons, and I'm like,
09:12when is a vehicle considered saleable?
09:14When is it complete?
09:15And everyone will have a different idea of what's able to be completed
09:19after start of production.
09:20Fisker famously shipped on V1 software with the promise of V2.
09:24I think getting that into the cars has been a pain.
09:27It's kind of almost bankrupted them.
09:29That was a huge miscalculation.
09:31Huge problems.
09:32Massive.
09:33Yeah.
09:34Because I remember back when the Model S shipped, it was complete.
09:38It was complete.
09:39And then everything that showed up was like, oh, wow, that's so cool.
09:42And I feel maybe you agree the Rivian has been like that too.
09:45It was a complete truck at the point of sale.
09:48Everything they've added delights me.
09:50I think their software is amazing.
09:52But it did everything.
09:54Keep in mind they didn't ship the kitchen thing that pops out the side.
09:58There were some hardware accessories that were advertised that never came.
10:02Accessories.
10:03But again, that's an optional accessory.
10:05I will say, to bolster what you just said, when I got it,
10:10they're like, look, your tonneau cover is going to break.
10:13Right.
10:14This is a third party.
10:16It's going to break.
10:17We'll sell it to you.
10:18But do you want a manual one?
10:19And I said no.
10:20And it worked great for six months.
10:22And then it broke.
10:23Mine broke recently.
10:24They just retrofitted with the new one.
10:26The new one is great.
10:27Awesome.
10:28So back to Model 3.
10:30You didn't drive it.
10:31You looked at it.
10:32Yeah, I looked at it.
10:33I looked at it too.
10:34I had a picture.
10:36Specs-wise, we should also note that we are recording this not just on the day
10:41it dropped, but probably why today was the day it dropped.
10:44This is the Tesla earnings, the quarterly earnings call,
10:48which I think most people are predicting is going to be a big disappointment
10:53to investors and shareholders.
10:55Any thoughts?
10:58Any thoughts on this vehicle, Model 3 performance,
11:02Tesla performance, vehicles in general?
11:05Yeah.
11:06Well, I just – I mean, I think maybe you guys did as well,
11:08but we all just drove the Ioniq 5N, which is like a really hot –
11:12I don't want to say hatch, but it's larger than a hatch,
11:14but a really hot performance-oriented electric vehicle that's not $250,000
11:19like a Lucid Sapphire or a Taycan Turbo GT.
11:22And I was like, wow, cool.
11:23This is awesome.
11:24And in the review, I just kept coming like,
11:26I wish I knew what the Model 3 performance was because this could be really
11:30close.
11:31And I was expecting Model 3 performance was delayed from the standard car,
11:37has been out for a couple months now, maybe even six months.
11:40Yeah.
11:41It's been a while, yeah.
11:42So the performance was delayed.
11:43I'm like, oh, they definitely got to be dialing this thing up,
11:45making it hardcore.
11:46And what launched today is not that.
11:49It's a new motor in the back, but it's a tiny bit fraction.
11:53Total system power is a little bit more.
11:55Yeah, it was like 510 horsepower.
11:57510.
11:58It's 380 kilowatts, which is –
12:00And it's the Gen 4 motor on the rear, and the front motor is the same?
12:04Nothing – with Tesla, you don't know.
12:06But, yes, front motor is assumed to be the same sort of induction motor
12:09in the front, permanent magnet in the rear.
12:11Right.
12:12They say better thermal longevity.
12:14They gave figures for the Gen 4 motor that was like 22% –
12:18I forget them offhand, but like 22% more power, 32% more torque.
12:21I'm just throwing those out.
12:22Sure.
12:23But then the actual numbers from the previous car to the new car
12:26are only like a 5% improvement.
12:27Right.
12:28So they must be battery limited or something limited to get more power,
12:32or there's a hot one, Model 3 Ludicrous maybe.
12:35I don't know.
12:36That's coming in the future.
12:37I don't typically speculate.
12:38But I was hoping it would be crazier, and it seems like a really good daily driver
12:43that's going to be comfortable, and it has adaptive damper now,
12:46which is nice, so you can change the character a bit.
12:49But it's no IONIQ 5N, which I think that's like monoblock brakes,
12:53big suspension upgrades, things like that.
12:55Yeah.
12:56A wiper.
12:57Yeah, a rear wiper.
12:58We sent Joe Barry on the launch.
13:00I wasn't there, but I was reading everyone's reviews, including yours.
13:04Every once in a while on a launch, because I can kind of read between the lines
13:08with the journalists.
13:09I've been doing this long enough.
13:10But when a car is praised like that, it's damn good.
13:13I talked to Farah about it, and it just seems to be the new benchmark
13:18for performance EVs.
13:19Totally.
13:20Yeah, so my viewpoint is, okay, better car, but it's $13,000 more
13:24than a Model 3 Performance, and it doesn't get the tax credit,
13:27which the Model 3 Performance does.
13:29So in my head, I was comparing them, but they're actually
13:31different price brackets.
13:32Right.
13:33So you can get, at least in Colorado, like a Model 3 for low to mid-40s now,
13:37Performance, which is cheaper than the all-wheel drive.
13:39Right.
13:40The all-wheel drive doesn't get the tax credit.
13:42The big one does.
13:43That's only if you qualify.
13:44But that's so much car.
13:45I mean, at the end of the day, if you can walk away for, like,
13:47$42,000 with a 500-horsepower car, that's insane.
13:51That's ridiculous.
13:52But you're still pretty bullish on Model 3 Highland overall, right?
13:56I think I watched one of your – in the research for this episode,
14:01I watched a few of your videos, and the one where you got to experience
14:06the Highland in Europe, you were a bit ahead of – I also remember, like,
14:10kicking rocks when you did that.
14:11I was like, man, we got to go to Europe to do this?
14:13Anyone can get a plane ticket.
14:15But you're – and I – is this still accurate, that you still feel Model 3
14:22in general is, like, the benchmark for this segment?
14:25Totally.
14:26I mean, at least in –
14:27So by a huge stretch.
14:29Do you remember when the F30 3 Series launched?
14:32This was, like, 2012.
14:33Sure.
14:34They were on every corner.
14:35You would see every new, you know, 3 Series.
14:37And then, what is it, 10 years later, roughly,
14:40I haven't seen a new 3 Series in Colorado.
14:43Right.
14:44Maybe two.
14:45And Model 3s are on every corner.
14:46Yep.
14:47So in terms of sales, yeah, this is the benchmark for not only electric,
14:50but also just this class of premium small sedan.
14:53Yeah.
14:54And then, you know, it's – the Model 3 got a lot right.
14:57One of the things is, you know, we'll get into this maybe in Part 2,
15:00but all the, you know, the EV haters out there, you know,
15:03oh, EVs are so heavy.
15:04Like, a Model 3 is 3,800 pounds.
15:06It weighs the same as a 3 Series.
15:08And if you go older –
15:09It weighs less than a C-Class.
15:10Yeah.
15:11You know?
15:12Yeah.
15:13Like, it's remarkable they got that so right.
15:14Yeah, and so the weight's good.
15:15I mean, the new car, the updates, I don't know if you guys have driven it yet,
15:18but it's better for, like, a comfortable daily driver.
15:21They definitely scrubbed some of the performance out of the standard car,
15:24and it's just nice, comfortable.
15:26It's got everything you need.
15:27More importantly to me is, like, and to a lot of people, is you have dog mode.
15:30You have great app connectivity.
15:32You have the best charging network.
15:33You just – it's a mindless ownership experience.
15:36It's not exciting.
15:37It's not enthusiastic.
15:38But if you just need a car that holds its value reasonably well,
15:42considering – if you buy a new one now, you're not going to lose much.
15:46If you bought one two years ago, which I've been in that position.
15:49I have a Model S that I ate a lot of crap on.
15:52But we could definitely get into that.
15:54But I think if you buy one for low to mid-30s new, you're not going to get hurt.
15:59Yes, believe me.
16:00I'm, like, the cheapest guy on the planet, and I've been –
16:02He is the cheapest guy on the planet.
16:03I've been surfing used Tesla prices.
16:07I love seeing – I mean, it's wild that you can buy a Model S under $20,000, $25,000 now.
16:12Yeah, and Model 3s are $15,000.
16:14Model 3s are $15,000 to $17,000 in certain places.
16:17I mean, that can't help the current resale value, though, right?
16:22I mean, I know a buddy of mine bought a Model Y about 18 months ago,
16:26and he's just like, it's $70,000 for that thing.
16:29Oh, well, that's crazy.
16:30I mean, I paid $140,000 for my Model S, and now it's worth $55,000.
16:35The Plaid is worth $50,000?
16:36It's only got 25,000 miles on it.
16:38Really?
16:39$55,000, yeah.
16:40That's without even disclosing that my colleague smashed it into a curb,
16:43and I don't know if it has an accident report or not.
16:46I didn't realize they're that cheap.
16:48I mean, the 1,000 horsepower for $50,000 is pretty good.
16:51I don't think they're quite $50,000, but mid-50s on trade-in.
16:54So let's say you buy it for $59,000.
16:56Yeah.
16:57That's the new muscle car.
17:00Yeah, that's not bad.
17:01That's not bad.
17:02Yeah, the new muscle car.
17:03All right.
17:04All right, so we covered Model 3s.
17:06How about Cyber Bees?
17:07Let's talk about Cybertruck plus Cyber Bees,
17:09and then another one I kicked rocks on when I saw you had it, Silverado EV.
17:14Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:15Hell yeah, brother.
17:16OK, so.
17:17Let's do Cybertruck, though.
17:18So Cybertruck, you've now owned one.
17:21You've been driving it for over close to two months now?
17:24Yep, just about.
17:25Oh, go ahead.
17:26OK, I drove real quick, though.
17:28I just want to see if you agree with my assessment.
17:30And I know you've driven the 600 horsepower one extensively.
17:33It is neither as horrible or as wonderful as everyone wants you to think.
17:38I think it's a very nice driving, seems to be pretty well-made automobile.
17:45What's crazy is how so you read everything online.
17:48Everyone has all these opinions.
17:49You got the Tesla shills that are like best thing in the world.
17:52And this is an abomination.
17:53But when you drive it, it's just like a big Model Y.
17:55Yeah, it's just like a normal.
17:57But nicer.
17:58It's like a little bit nicer.
17:59Yeah, it's nicer.
18:00And people just stare at you.
18:01And it's very dangerous to drive outside the L.A. area because they're here now.
18:05You see them on the street.
18:06But in like South Florida.
18:08Right.
18:09When I got my truck, like you had to be so careful because people would like film
18:13and then come into your lane.
18:15And it was the most dangerous vehicle to drive, not because of the vehicle.
18:18Right, right.
18:19But because of everyone around you.
18:21My quick, to me, the biggest shortcoming of the thing, besides maybe that weird
18:28wiper, but is, you know, again, because it's not a full-size truck,
18:35and it has a big bed, but because of the architecture of the thing,
18:39you can't get into the bed to grab stuff.
18:41You have to climb in every time.
18:43Yeah, like going over the side is impossible.
18:45It's impossible.
18:46And, like, you know, my friend got one, and he was like,
18:48it's the greatest pickup.
18:49He's never even thought about a pickup truck before.
18:51Every Cybertruck owner has never owned a truck before.
18:53And I said, oh, yeah.
18:54I go, look at this with my Rivian.
18:56And I go, lower yours all the way to the ground.
18:57Lower it.
18:58And I lowered the Rivian.
18:59I go, watch this.
19:00I took his water bottle, and I threw it in the back of the Rivian.
19:01And I go, by the way, in a pickup truck, when you hit the brakes,
19:03everything slides against the cab.
19:05And I go, look at this.
19:06And I got his water bottle.
19:07And then I took it and threw it in his Cybertruck.
19:09And he's like, oh, yeah.
19:10I go, go get your water.
19:12Yeah, this I'm worried about.
19:14I mean, so to be transparent, like, we've used the truck for testing
19:17for two months nonstop.
19:18We have almost 10,000 miles on it now.
19:20It's just been across the country towing, hauling, doing stuff.
19:24But I haven't used it as my daily truck.
19:26I still have my Rivian that I've been, like, putting tires in to go
19:28swap on vehicles and, like, doing, you know, dog food runs,
19:32which take a bunch of room.
19:34And so that is going to be interesting to see what it's like to live with.
19:37But if that's, like, the biggest problem,
19:39I think I can get over the whole reaching into the bed thing.
19:41Okay.
19:42It's just more climbing into the bed.
19:45All right.
19:46All right.
19:47So you bought this in –
19:49That doesn't know trucks.
19:51Excuse me.
19:52I've been a truck owner my whole life.
19:54So you rolling over on the highway.
19:56Exactly.
19:57I drove your F-150 Lightning.
19:58In 1983, I turned up Hilux as my high school daily driver.
20:01Get out of here.
20:04Good question, though, for you.
20:05You bought this in Florida.
20:07Did you put, like, a standard regular human put it the day it was announced?
20:11No.
20:12No.
20:13We put in order, like, right before we got the truck.
20:15So what happened was Tesla has a referral program.
20:17Okay.
20:18So if you have, you know, friends or whatever that you refer cars to
20:21or trucks to, you build up points.
20:24I think it's actually kind of fun and kind of cool.
20:26But my dad works for us.
20:28He has a YouTube channel.
20:29And so he had all these points that he's used.
20:32And so I was like, Dad, you've got all these referral points.
20:35The Cybertruck just popped up in the referral store,
20:38which is like a Tesla owner's only store.
20:40And it said guaranteed delivery within, I forget what it was,
20:43but it was like two months or something like that.
20:45It was like eight to 12 weeks.
20:47And we were like, well, let's just do that.
20:49It's not going to work.
20:50That's crazy.
20:51And to be honest, I didn't at the time,
20:54they weren't building the tri-motor ones that commonly,
20:57but they let us choose that.
20:58I'm like, well, if we have the option, let's just go for it.
21:01And it all happened.
21:02It was like 10 p.m. at night.
21:04I was like two beers in.
21:05And I'm like, whatever, let's get a freaking Cybertruck.
21:07And it was like 250 bucks.
21:08I'm like, okay, if it doesn't work, we lost a couple hundred bucks.
21:11But you saw the Cybertruck reveal with Elon and the thing,
21:15and you weren't one of the people that put the deposit down?
21:18No, I thought it was dumb.
21:19Oh, really?
21:20Why did you think it was dumb?
21:21I thought it was a joke when it rolled up on stage.
21:24What part of it?
21:25The look, the feel?
21:26I just was like, this is – I mean, it's been years now for us to soak this in.
21:30Yeah, it has.
21:32Yeah.
21:33But, yeah, I just was not into the truck at all.
21:36Really?
21:37Yeah.
21:38I mean, still for me, I prefer the Rivian over the Cybertruck as my daily driver.
21:40You mean looks?
21:41Oh, it's daily.
21:42Yeah, just as a vehicle.
21:43It's a higher quality.
21:44So you don't like the way it looks?
21:45I don't think it's pretty.
21:46I think it's interesting.
21:47I'm not like, ew.
21:49Or you don't like the look at me.
21:50Because the look at me factor, I hate that.
21:52I truly –
21:53That's annoying.
21:54Yeah, I don't like –
21:55See, I've learned decades of –
21:56You love it.
21:57You actually love it.
21:58It's been eight years.
21:59It's taught me, like, don't look at anybody ever.
22:00Johnny, actually, he secretly loved it.
22:02I wouldn't even notice.
22:04It was really fun the first eight hours.
22:06And then we were like, everyone is driving so weird around us.
22:09And I was just like, now I'm actually like trying to avoid the cameras for fun.
22:13So, like, if I see a camera come out, I'll just go like full ABS brakes if no one's behind me.
22:17Right, right.
22:18And just like avoid them.
22:19I mean, I drove – what was the thing?
22:21It was the McLaren Elva.
22:22Yeah.
22:23With no windshield.
22:24No windshield, yeah.
22:25On the freeway.
22:26People were leaning out of their cars, and just because there's no windows or windshield,
22:29just putting their cameras in the car with me.
22:31You know?
22:32Like, I actually touched a guy's phone.
22:33Like, what are you doing?
22:34It's amazing.
22:35Yeah.
22:36So how many Teslas do you own or does –
22:39What's in your fleet?
22:40Does out-of-spec own?
22:41What's your fleet?
22:42How do you count?
22:43So, technically, the Cybertruck's registered under my dad's name.
22:48The company pays for it.
22:49So we just had to put it in his name for the referral points and everything.
22:52And he works for us, so it's all cool.
22:54So we have that.
22:55He has a Model X as his personal daily driver, which we can use.
22:59I've borrowed it for some time, but that's really his car.
23:02I own a Model S as my daily driver.
23:05Technically, that and the Rivian are my two cars that I use around.
23:10Not super into the Model S, personally, but, you know, it's lost so much value, you can't really sell it.
23:15I mean, for 50 grand, having a cool 1,000-horsepower car around, may as well have that.
23:20And then we have a Model 3 Performance that's from 2019.
23:25And that was a car that helped grow out-of-spec.
23:27That was my car back in the day.
23:29That was my only car.
23:31And we did road trips and all the videos out of that thing.
23:34And that's what helped get us off the ground.
23:36So four Teslas and a Rivian.
23:38That's the fleet.
23:39Four Teslas, Rivian.
23:40I mean, we got a bunch of other stuff, too.
23:41Renault.
23:42I have a Twizy.
23:43You do?
23:44Yes.
23:45I've got a Twizy.
23:46I have two first-gen RAV4 EVs.
23:48I've got a couple 1970s Commuta cars.
23:50Why?
23:51I like the weird stuff.
23:52Is the RAV4 EV still going, running?
23:54One of them, no.
23:56We just started a new channel called Out-of-Spec Renew, which is like how to preserve cars,
24:00how to recycle batteries, how to take a battery out of a car and use it for stationary storage.
24:05And so part of the story is, what do you do with these old, aging cars?
24:08Right.
24:09How did you get it, by the way?
24:10Because I thought Toyota bought all this back.
24:11No, there's a lady in Texas.
24:13I mean, I bought them now.
24:14But she had them for four grand for both, with the original paddle chargers.
24:17Just a Craigslist ad.
24:18And a viewer sent it to me.
24:19Right.
24:20And I just called her immediately.
24:21I'm like, I honestly wanted the paddle chargers.
24:23I think they're called MagnaCharge, J1773.
24:26I'm like, I want those more than the RAV4s.
24:28But if they come with the cars, great.
24:30Huh.
24:32Yeah.
24:33So I got them all.
24:34What else?
24:35What else?
24:36What else?
24:37Combustion stuff we have as well, but electric.
24:39No, combustion.
24:40I have a couple Range Rovers.
24:42I'm a Land Rover nerd, so I love off-roading.
24:45I drive often my classic Range Rover every day.
24:47Her name's Judy.
24:48I've got a Polestar 1.
24:50What year is the Polestar 1?
24:52We'll come back to that.
24:53What year is the Range Rover?
24:54It's a 91.
24:55Ooh.
24:56Ooh.
24:57You know, 91.
24:58Okay.
24:59I think it was 90, the first press car I ever drove when I was 15.
25:02That's round headlights.
25:03Yep.
25:04Round headlights.
25:05Yeah.
25:06My friend's father was an automotive journalist, and we had our permits,
25:09and we went off-roading in a Range Rover.
25:11It just showed up.
25:12And he's like, you guys got your permits.
25:13You can drive.
25:14Hell, yeah.
25:15Back in the day, it must have been so fun to be a journalist.
25:18It's pretty fun now.
25:20Let's be honest.
25:22You're old.
25:23That was a year old.
25:25No, 1990.
25:26Oh, okay.
25:27Yeah, I was 15.
25:29But I am old, yeah.
25:31I wasn't even born in 90.
25:33Jesus Christ.
25:34All right.
25:35Well, it's been nice, Kyle.
25:36We'll get there.
25:38Sorry.
25:39Sorry.
25:40So you have a Polestar?
25:41You have a Polestar 1?
25:42Yeah, Polestar 1.
25:43We have an e-tron, one of the full-size e-trons.
25:46You mentioned I'd listen to that.
25:48I listened on the Smoking Tire.
25:49You still recommend e-tron?
25:51E-tron's great.
25:52They got some, like, weird recall stuff that I'm not sure what's going on with.
25:55I got to dig into it.
25:56Which e-tron?
25:57Just the full-size SUV.
25:59The Q7 version.
26:01Yeah.
26:02It's just very comfortable.
26:03It's a nice cruiser.
26:04They're nice.
26:05They just need more range.
26:06Yeah, the range sucks.
26:07The charging's good, though.
26:08It just sits at 150 kilowatts to 80%.
26:10So for, like, actually road tripping,
26:12it's the same exact road tripping time as our Model 3 performance.
26:15Oh, interesting.
26:16Yeah, so just hopping station to station.
26:18It doesn't actually matter between the two.
26:20But for daily, I mean, I've borrowed a –
26:22I mean, like, for instance, the GT, especially the RS e-tron GT.
26:26Yeah.
26:27Like, boy, if I had 160 grand, I'd just buy one.
26:30I love it.
26:31But the way to do it is buy those used.
26:33They're in the 50s now.
26:34What are they now?
26:35Are they?
26:36Maybe RS is in the 50s.
26:37Tycons and GTs over there.
26:38Yeah, but the RS.
26:39Boy, that's a –
26:40and I think it's the best looking and the best handling.
26:43I love the way it drives.
26:44I have to disagree with you.
26:45But I like the car.
26:46You don't like the way it looks or drives?
26:47Both.
26:48I think the Tycon's better in both areas.
26:49Oh, no way.
26:50Yeah, totally.
26:51No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
26:52The new – I haven't driven the new Tycon.
26:54No, new Tycon's crazy good.
26:55Yeah, I haven't driven that yet.
26:56Yeah, yeah.
26:57Okay, so let's stick with Porsche.
26:59So you just drove the Macan EV.
27:01Yeah.
27:02Macan EV.
27:03I drove the prototype.
27:05Yep, I did that one.
27:06It seemed super complete.
27:08You went to the south of France.
27:09Mm-hmm.
27:10Your opinion.
27:11What did you drive?
27:12Where did you drive?
27:13We were in Antibes.
27:14Okay.
27:15And so they just had, like, a local mountain route around.
27:18And typically I don't follow the routes, but on that one,
27:20they actually had a great route.
27:21Oh, you were on Route Napoleon.
27:22I don't even know.
27:23Yeah, you were on –
27:24It says turn left, turn right.
27:25You were on Route Napoleon,
27:26which is, like, the best road in the whole – out of Monaco?
27:28Yeah.
27:29Yeah.
27:30Yeah.
27:31I don't actually know if we were on that one,
27:32but the roads were amazing.
27:33Yeah.
27:34And so we were going through these tunnels with, like –
27:35Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:36Cool.
27:38It's a Macan, so, like, it's not meant to be a performance car,
27:40but it was –
27:41Well, it is.
27:42I mean, it's a performance SUV.
27:43It's the sportiest in the segment.
27:44It's got a Porsche badge,
27:45but most Macan owners drive around here.
27:47Of course.
27:48You know, just in the city.
27:49You know this.
27:50I remember when I drove the prototype, they said, you know,
27:53we're Porsche, so everything gets offered on summer tires,
27:56but all the ones you're driving are on all seasons
27:58because 99% of Macan owners pick all –
28:00and I was like, that's depressing.
28:02Yeah, sure.
28:03Come on.
28:0499%.
28:05Is it really that high?
28:06That's crazy.
28:07That's what they told me.
28:08Yeah, wow.
28:09And, like, that's just –
28:10It's all seasons, baby.
28:11Are the worst things in the whole world.
28:12Yeah.
28:13No seasons.
28:14No seasons, yeah.
28:15But anyway, so you're saying it's just a nice SUV, like what –
28:17Yeah, really nice.
28:18I mean, so some specs on the car, maybe for the viewers who don't know,
28:21it's 100-kilowatt-hour pack, 95 usable, dual motor only at the moment.
28:26I think they'll do a rear-wheel drive in the future.
28:28The top spec turbo and the four, the two launch specifications.
28:33There'll be a GTS in between them.
28:35There'll be a 4S.
28:36I was in a prototype that said 4S on the screen,
28:38so I'm like, you know that they're going to be –
28:40It's Porsche.
28:41There's no secrets.
28:42We know what's coming.
28:43And I hope they do actually something spicier than the turbo
28:45because there's room if you really want a performance Macan.
28:48I've spent a lot of time in the combustion Macans,
28:51and the electric one just feels like a whole step above in terms of chassis.
28:55It feels more sorted.
28:57It's purpose-built now to be a car.
28:59You mean it's no longer an Audi with the Porsche badge.
29:01It's no longer an Audi with the engine flipped around
29:03and bounced every time you drove it hard.
29:05I'm glad you said it because everyone's always like, oh, Porsche is –
29:08Macan sucks.
29:09Cayenne is so much better than Macan.
29:11What do you think about that?
29:13Yes, 100% agree, except for –
29:15I only drove it on the launch with the base Cayenne.
29:18It's pretty whatever.
29:19I know they just refreshed it.
29:21But I got for years –
29:24I'm like, no, don't get a Macan.
29:26Get anything else.
29:27They were always the worst Porsche.
29:29Yeah.
29:30I mean, still, worst Porsche is pretty good.
29:32I want my cousin to buy the Gen 1 Macan.
29:34But again, the engine blew up on me.
29:36But people blindly, because there's a Porsche –
29:39I'm like, why would you –
29:40if you actually like driving –
29:41turns out most people don't like driving.
29:43Let me ask you something.
29:45Did you feel –
29:47how was the software, the screens, the electrical architecture in that car?
29:53Any noticeable flaws or gaps?
29:55So these are the questions that we need to talk about more.
29:58Software.
29:59We're at reviewing software, connected experiences,
30:01because this is what actually most of my viewership cares about,
30:04not can you go sideways, which is what I care about.
30:07Yeah.
30:08Well, real quick, we should –
30:09so Kyle and I were recently in South Carolina on a track with BMW.
30:13Yes, yes.
30:14This dude can drive.
30:15I was like, what is happening?
30:18I don't know why I assumed you couldn't.
30:20And again, I really don't watch car videos.
30:22I've never seen your videos.
30:24But like the i5, like –
30:29which is a wonderful car, by the way.
30:31Sure.
30:32We could talk about that.
30:33But I'm like following the instructor,
30:34and I'm pretty hard on the instructor.
30:36He's sideways.
30:37I was just doing drift laps.
30:39The whole way.
30:40It was insane.
30:41It was fun.
30:42And then the M3 CS, you were rocking that thing.
30:44Yeah, I love driving.
30:45That's my – I'm not the best driver, no question.
30:47But you're close, actually.
30:49You're pretty –
30:50If I were to put some effort in in training,
30:52I could be something maybe there.
30:54But I think I can drive better than the average buyer of a vehicle,
30:57which I need to be a little bit above average to review a car.
31:00Yeah.
31:01And to me, that's important.
31:02So I go training –
31:03You're a lot above average.
31:04I mean, again, I hang out with a lot of people that do our job.
31:07So anyway, just a compliment.
31:09I learned that on the Ioniq 5 N launch,
31:11which is like, oh, my God.
31:13How do these people review cars?
31:15So I'm not naming names.
31:16Please do.
31:17Go ahead.
31:18Nobody listens to this guy.
31:19But at the break, I can figure out who is on his wave.
31:21Oh, yeah. Let's do it.
31:22I can do that.
31:23Nobody listens to this guy.
31:24Oh, he's –
31:25But it was fun.
31:26They had a little time thing.
31:27Huh?
31:28No, no.
31:29Your guy was good.
31:30There was no issue.
31:31I don't even know who our guy was.
31:33No, but you're saying your viewers care about software and not driving.
31:36Well, I think there's –
31:37Ultimately, I think my job is to review a complete vehicle.
31:41And I think my understanding of operating systems,
31:44laws regarding what can be in a vehicle from an OS standpoint are certainly –
31:49that's lacking.
31:50And I feel like I've spent some time with Chinese reviewers.
31:53Okay. Interesting.
31:54And they are mostly influencers, not so much car reviewers.
31:58There isn't this deep culture of car testing there.
32:00Sure.
32:01But all they care about is software and battery chemistry.
32:04And I'm like, oh, these guys are legit.
32:06If I can take – my goal is to take the, like, old-school, hardcore testing of cars,
32:11blend it with what software and connected experiences
32:14and things that consumers care about, put that all into a review,
32:18and then recommend a car based off of that knowledge, that would be great.
32:21But I'm still a long ways away from that.
32:23My man. Speaking my language.
32:24But, hey, the original question was Macan.
32:27Yeah.
32:28How do you feel?
32:30And let me give you the setup because there's a point to this.
32:32Okay.
32:33Macan was massively delayed because –
32:35Years.
32:36The argument was they did not have the electrical architecture ready
32:41and the software piece.
32:43So now that it's here, the question is –
32:45Yeah, it works. It works fine.
32:48No, it's not good compared to a Rivian, which is incredible with software.
32:52And I know you know Wasim at Rivian.
32:54Like, the software team is amazing.
32:56Tesla has great software.
32:58This is not on that level.
32:59There are things, there are competencies in the Macan that are better bits and pieces.
33:04For example, the route planner that tells you where you have to stop,
33:08preconditions the battery, you know, and chooses those stations
33:11is faster than any route planner I've tested in any vehicle.
33:15It wasn't this trip, but I filmed the car in a studio near Vaisak,
33:19and I put in someplace in Portugal, and it was like, bam, one and a half seconds.
33:24It knew all the stops.
33:26That's thousands of kilometers.
33:28As far as you know, though, right?
33:30Because once you start driving, it's supposed to change, right?
33:32And it does.
33:33Okay.
33:34Yeah.
33:35And I tested that on this trip.
33:36It's like, okay, I put in a thing, drove the nuts off of it,
33:38and it's like, oh, stop early.
33:39Yeah.
33:40Right there instantly.
33:41I was like, that was great.
33:42The Porsche guys obsess over fast traveling with this car,
33:45which is what I care about in an EV.
33:47I'm always on the road driving.
33:48We've got shoots everywhere.
33:49I drive electric.
33:50I think it's fun to road trip electric.
33:52And the fact that the car, you know, I can set it to get to a charger
33:56at 3% state of charge, which is how I like to drive.
33:58Oh, you can do that?
33:59Yeah.
34:00Oh, interesting.
34:01And Mercedes lets you do it as well, which is cool.
34:02Okay.
34:03But that's where, like, Rivian's actually lacking pretty hardcore
34:05in the route planning district.
34:06Well, didn't they buy a better route planner
34:08and it was supposed to help in some way?
34:10Yeah.
34:11I haven't seen much benefit from that purchase yet.
34:12Okay.
34:13Yeah.
34:14But Macan's good overall.
34:15Like, it's expensive compared to combustion Macan.
34:17Sure.
34:18Combustion Macan was always actually people were surprised
34:20at how inexpensive it was compared to their mental impact.
34:23I mean, you used to be able to get a four-cylinder Macan for $55?
34:25Yeah, something like that.
34:26$56.
34:27Yeah.
34:28And I was like, okay, that's cool.
34:29This is not that.
34:30This is $90.
34:31What do you think of Porsche's bizarre fascination
34:34with no one-pedal driving?
34:36Like, they're really going to die on that hill.
34:38And again, I was just driving around yesterday one-pedal
34:41and I was like, and I knew the Macan review was coming
34:44and I'm like, what the hell is wrong with it?
34:46What do you think?
34:47Yeah, it's a philosophical issue because the Q6 e-tron,
34:50which is the sister car to the Macan, has one-pedal driving.
34:53Yeah.
34:54And it's the same architecture, same platform.
34:56No, it's just Porsche's obsession.
34:57It is just they don't want it.
34:59However, Dr. Robert Meyer, who's responsible for the Macan,
35:03has become a friend over reviewing the cars for years
35:06and I've really pushed him on this.
35:07And he says that they are now considering putting in one-pedal driving
35:11through an over-the-air update to the Macan,
35:13which I'm like, you have to do that.
35:14Because I posted the video this morning.
35:16There's already 10, 20, 30 comments of people that are like,
35:20who knows if they would have bought it in the first place,
35:22that are like, I'm not buying that car until it has whatever.
35:24Right.
35:25It's just such, like, again, if you spend time with EVs.
35:28Now, look, I have a lot of friends that go,
35:30I want to try your Rivian out.
35:31And they'll drive it for five minutes.
35:33I hate it.
35:34Why?
35:35It's so jerky.
35:36The brakes come on.
35:37So jerky.
35:38I go, yeah.
35:39That's by design.
35:40Actually, you know, you should increase it.
35:41It's even better.
35:42Yeah.
35:43But, like, it's just, I mean, I remember on the development drive,
35:47I mean, first of all,
35:48these are the grumpiest engineers I've ever encountered.
35:50I mean, literally, it's an old guy.
35:51I'm like, so is this bigger than the old one?
35:53Like, arms folded, like, I don't know, you know.
35:55What did you do?
35:56I literally parked it next to an old Macan.
35:58Oh, nice, yeah.
35:59But, you know, and I'm like, it actually can't be more efficient.
36:02I'm like, there's no way that coasting can be more efficient than regenerating.
36:06I refute your argument.
36:08We can get into the numbers.
36:10It is more efficient to coast.
36:12It can't be.
36:13Well, first, okay, if you do it like you're a half mile before a red light.
36:18Yeah.
36:19Okay, no one drives like that.
36:20And no Porsche driver drives like that.
36:22But you'll still recuperate energy in the Macan,
36:24even without one pedal driving, because it's a blended brake pedal.
36:27Yeah.
36:28Well, but if you just lift.
36:30Yeah.
36:31It's no different than hitting the brake pedal,
36:33because it's brake by wire in the Macan now.
36:35Yeah.
36:36And Taycan always did a little bit more friction brake blending than I would like.
36:39But Macan pretty much is just, you know, in the way that it's set up,
36:43if you have one pedal driving off or regen off completely, I should say,
36:46you lift and the car goes to zero motor power,
36:49which is not totally true because it's dual permanent magnet.
36:51And it's always doing a little bit.
36:53You always have flux losses.
36:54Right.
36:55And then, you know, if you're just coasting,
36:57the idea is that you don't have any conversion losses.
37:00The motors are AC.
37:01So every time you convert DC to AC and AC back to DC,
37:04you'll have an efficiency loss.
37:06Let's say you can recapture at 70% efficiency from a motor into a battery pack.
37:11There's heat loss there.
37:12There's conversion losses.
37:13And even if you do have to brake in the Macan, though,
37:17when you hit the brake pedal, it's just using regen.
37:19I understand that.
37:20What I'm saying, though, is that, like, an electric motor is 60% efficient.
37:25In other words, 60% of the energy goes to moving the vehicle forward and 40%
37:29It's like 95, but yeah.
37:31No, no, no.
37:32It's 60%.
37:33And then when you add in regen, you get to 80 to 90%.
37:36That's how EVs work.
37:38So that's why it drives me crazy with Porsche.
37:42I think you get the same benefit either way.
37:44Huh.
37:45Yeah, because either way, you're either outputting or regenning.
37:47Whether you're doing that off throttle or on the brake pedal,
37:50that's just a user input difference.
37:52I see what you're saying.
37:53Okay.
37:54So you're saying the efficiency.
37:56The motors don't care.
37:58They're being told to output or regen, and it's whether you're being.
38:01But isn't there time, to put it in a weightlifting term, time under tension?
38:05Like, if you just do one little.
38:08I guess you're right.
38:09I guess you're right.
38:10All right, anyways.
38:11It just drives me nuts, the Porsche thing.
38:13There is some truth.
38:14I mean, if we get really into the details to reducing the amount of regen that you're doing.
38:18Like, if you can quickly transition to regen.
38:20Yeah.
38:21Because there's I squared R, which means that your losses.
38:23Oh, you've lost me.
38:24I squared R?
38:25Well, your losses are.
38:26What's I?
38:28I mean, yeah.
38:29Essentially, the way that it works is the more current that you have.
38:32Okay.
38:33On an exponential basis, the more losses you'll have.
38:36So 100 amps, let's just say, are being flowed.
38:38You'll have X number of losses.
38:40At 200 amps, it's not double.
38:42It's significantly more.
38:43Yeah, it's an order of magnitude.
38:44Okay.
38:45So if you can reduce the amount of regen you're doing, and even prolong the time,
38:48you'll actually get a little bit more back into the battery.
38:50But we're talking nothing that would ever show up in a result.
38:53Right, right, right.
38:54This is a great point, a great moment for us to change gears here.
38:59Oh.
39:00Okay?
39:01Because I feel like we'll talk about all these cool new EVs and cars
39:04throughout the rest of this now definitely two-part conversation.
39:07But I have to ask at this very moment, who the hell are you?
39:10Like, I've been trying to figure out, are you – you didn't –
39:16where does the knowledge, the interest, the passion, I squared R –
39:21you did not go, as far as I can tell, you don't have an electrical engineering degree,
39:26a CS degree.
39:27No, no.
39:28Like, who –
39:29College dropout.
39:30Yeah.
39:31Yeah, one year is all I gave college.
39:32You grew up in Connecticut?
39:34Yeah.
39:35And then you went to – so you went to high school there and went to college
39:38in High Point for one year?
39:40Yep.
39:41And studied what?
39:42What were you doing there for?
39:43Honestly, nothing.
39:44I didn't even show up to class.
39:45There was nothing interesting going on there.
39:47It was a cool school.
39:48I was like, they have a steakhouse on campus.
39:50That's where I want to go.
39:51That is cool.
39:52So then in high school, did – were you like – I got a five in AP physics.
39:56No, no, no.
39:57Like, what –
39:58Cs.
39:59You're a C student.
40:01I was a C student.
40:02Good job.
40:03Okay.
40:04D and C, never As.
40:05And you –
40:06I got one A in history.
40:07D and Jim.
40:08Didn't even show up.
40:09I got Ds in French.
40:10And you – okay.
40:11So you love – you love cars your whole life?
40:14Yeah.
40:15Always a car – and my dad's a car enthusiast.
40:17So I got a lot of the car love from him.
40:19But he's not a super nerd, I would say.
40:21Okay.
40:22But he's always had – I was lucky.
40:23He always had cool cars.
40:24Well, then let me ask you this.
40:25What else were you obsessive about before cars?
40:28Nothing.
40:29Nothing?
40:30It is – my whole life is cars.
40:31Wow.
40:32There's not one other passion.
40:33Nothing?
40:34No other interests?
40:35Zero.
40:36And I should have asked this.
40:37I should have asked this.
40:38Not even a hint.
40:39Like, I look at your profile.
40:40I'm like watching you, you know, do the card thing, the strongman challenge.
40:42Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:43And whiskey and watches.
40:44Yeah, yeah.
40:45And I wish I had even remotely something else.
40:48Wow.
40:49It is just cars.
40:50Okay.
40:51And then – because you said it earlier.
40:52You weren't even born yet in 1990?
40:54No, I was born in 95.
40:55Oh, my God.
40:56Oh, my God.
40:57You're 29?
40:58Yeah, 28.
40:59I turned 29.
41:00Oh, my God.
41:01I'm a baby.
41:02You're killing me.
41:03So real quick, we met – you ran up to me at an airport if memory serves.
41:07Yeah, years ago.
41:08Memory serves.
41:09LRX.
41:10And you were like, hey, man, big fan or something like that.
41:12Yeah.
41:13I was like, I'm going to break the cannonball record in EV.
41:16Yeah.
41:17And I was like, oh, that sounds like hell.
41:19Yeah, I know.
41:20That's what you said to me, too.
41:21You said, that sounds awful.
41:22I'm like, I love this because it is.
41:23It's not fun, but I'm a nerd.
41:25That must have been 2018 or 2017.
41:27Yeah, I think 2018, something like that.
41:29Because I listened to your – I just listened to one for you to record in 2019,
41:32and you had just done it.
41:33Yeah, yeah.
41:34But I was doing a scouting run for that.
41:36I was taking it so seriously.
41:37Right.
41:38Well, that's – I mean, look, when – I think I might have told you this,
41:40and you probably knew this, but like when Alex Roy did it,
41:43JF Musial, who is a – we all know him.
41:46Inside baseball, he films a lot of stuff for a lot of car companies.
41:49A lot of Porsche stuff.
41:50A lot of Porsche stuff.
41:51A lot of Cadillac stuff.
41:52Yeah.
41:53In fact, I'm in a new Le Mans documentary.
41:55Anyways, a little plug for JF.
41:57But he had JF pre-run the route and go to each gas station.
42:02So, you know, you'd pull off a highway.
42:03I remember that.
42:04There would be like four gas stations, and he'd have JF time each pump.
42:09So Alex knew exactly which pump at which gas station was the –
42:12which was brilliant.
42:13Yeah, that's the same approach we took to the EV thing.
42:16And Alex had been doing – I already talked to Alex at the time.
42:19He was aware of what we were doing since we've become friends since then,
42:22of course, which is great.
42:23And, yeah, I mean, the EV cannonball stuff is not looking how fast
42:27I can drive across the country.
42:29I was interested in it because I wanted to see and benchmark
42:32how quickly you could road trip a vehicle.
42:36At what point do electric cars and gas cars reach parity on a road trip?
42:39Right.
42:40And I think the only way to prove that is to road trip.
42:42Okay.
42:43I want to get to your road trip because you've done a lot.
42:45But let's stay in high school or your early years.
42:48Who were your – because, God dang, you're so young.
42:51Who – what were your influences?
42:54And you don't have to say Motor Trend because it's –
42:56No, I watched a lot of Motor Trend.
42:58I was a consumer of car content.
43:00As a car enthusiast, I would watch everything.
43:02More watch than read.
43:04I think a lot of the – I feel like there's generations to car journalists, right?
43:08Yes.
43:09So you have the ones that were inspired by reading articles.
43:12Yes.
43:13And then now you have my generation, which is inspired from the Top Gear age.
43:17Right.
43:18And your videos on Motor Trend and others where we're like,
43:20this is awesome.
43:21That's what I want to do.
43:23It's so funny.
43:24I mean, I know that and I see it all the time.
43:26But, like, when I was back doing those videos, I was like, God,
43:29making videos is hell.
43:31Writing is fun.
43:32I still like to write.
43:33Writing is fun.
43:34And, like, videos are just long days on set.
43:36It's not what you're doing.
43:37You're doing kind of like more stream of consciousness.
43:39Yeah.
43:40You're not doing, like, perfect, do it again, nine times in a row.
43:44Everything is one take.
43:45From 30 angles.
43:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:47So then who – you mentioned Top Gear.
43:49And thank you for the flattery.
43:50The video piece.
43:52He was pointing at me.
43:53I know.
43:54I meant Motor Trend in general.
43:55I remember watching the days of your testing stuff when you're out in the desert
43:59doing the deliberations on Car of the Year or whatever.
44:01Very slow.
44:02If you had to point to a single influence, is there anyone in particular you're like,
44:05holy moly, it was always so-and-so?
44:07No.
44:08I kind of stumbled into this, I think.
44:10You know, I was not – it was not my intention to become a reviewer.
44:14Oh, really?
44:15Yeah.
44:16Huh.
44:17I mean, I was always like, that's my dream.
44:18I don't think I could have ever achieved.
44:19So what did you – you just wanted to do fun stuff with cars.
44:22Yeah.
44:23And then you just started documenting it.
44:24Exactly.
44:25And people started paying attention.
44:26That is 100% how it happened.
44:27I had a couple friends.
44:28I lived in North Carolina after college.
44:31Not that I graduated, but after I finished college.
44:33After you dropped out.
44:34After I dropped out of college.
44:36Any time there's a successful college dropout, I love it.
44:39There's a lot of unsuccessful ones.
44:40Yeah, sure.
44:41Of course.
44:42But we would just go out.
44:43We'd be going to the Tale of the Dragon.
44:44We'd be going to track days.
44:45What were you driving back then?
44:47I always had something spicy.
44:49I always spent way too much on a car.
44:50Good.
44:51Yeah.
44:52Nice.
44:53I was like – I don't really have any other passions like I mentioned.
44:56Don't need a big house.
44:57Don't drink a lot.
44:58Nothing like that.
44:59I was just like cars.
45:00Give me some context for like 18, 19-year-old.
45:03What I drove.
45:04Were you driving like a –
45:05A John Cooper Works GP at the time.
45:06All right.
45:07Mini Cooper.
45:08Yeah.
45:09I had a bunch of minis.
45:10First gen?
45:11So I had a second gen, the R56 one.
45:12First gen was –
45:13I had countrymen that we tuned up to shoot flames.
45:14That was really fun.
45:15I had a –
45:16Very North Carolina of you.
45:17Yeah, right.
45:18Yeah.
45:19That was actually back in Connecticut, but I took that car to North Carolina.
45:21Yeah.
45:22So a bunch of minis.
45:23I had a Range Rover guy, so I had a couple Range Rovers.
45:28What else did I have back then?
45:30A BMW M3 manual.
45:32I don't mean to be insulting.
45:34Are you independently wealthy?
45:35No, no.
45:36I just –
45:37Don't follow me for financial advice.
45:38Every penny that I get just goes into a car.
45:40Right.
45:41Okay.
45:42Yeah, but I don't take –
45:43Like there's no outside –
45:44A lot of people ask me like, oh, who pays for all –
45:46I'm like I have never taken an outside investment from anyone.
45:49I mean even including my parents.
45:51They helped me buy my initial filming gear when I started out of spec, but that's it.
45:55Okay.
45:56My mom –
45:57Now your dad works for you.
45:58Yeah, now my dad works for us.
45:59But like it's fun.
46:00I know.
46:01It's great.
46:02When I started doing car reviews 19 years ago when you were born, being born, my mom
46:07bought me my first camera, which I had to use for like back in the day.
46:10Yeah, I feel like we had maybe $5,000 – because I thought making a YouTube channel, you needed
46:15a bunch of stuff.
46:16So I was like we need a drone.
46:17We need this.
46:18Sure.
46:19So my dad was like, here you go.
46:20Pay me back.
46:21It was nice, and I did pay him back.
46:22Yeah.
46:23But I found out that I film everything on my iPhone.
46:25Yeah.
46:26No, no, I noticed that.
46:27I was like you don't actually need a lot of equipment.
46:29And actually I find your stuff pretty unique.
46:31I've seen a few videos.
46:32It's pretty unique in that like first of all you're much more comprehensive.
46:36I mean you put out like routinely hour plus to two hour videos, which is crazy.
46:41Yeah, I mean –
46:42Yeah.
46:43Yeah.
46:44It's crazy, you know, because we're always like doing nine or ten minute videos.
46:46That's how people consume them.
46:48Yeah.
46:49But it seems like your audience –
46:50They love it.
46:51They love it.
46:52It's not like video length to try and game algorithms or anything like that.
46:55Yeah.
46:56It's all just –
46:57Smart, smart, smart.
46:58My viewpoint is if someone is really going to spend a lot of money on a car, let me tell
47:01them everything possible because everyone else in the business is making consumable short
47:05content.
47:06And I think honestly it helps you stand out a lot because I've been trained to think
47:11about, all right, you're going to have three minutes to talk about the car.
47:14That's like if you're doing a ten minute video, usually I was doing a comparison.
47:19The intro is a bunch of nonsense.
47:21It'd be like personal insults with the other host.
47:23But you have like three minutes per car to really review it.
47:26So I wouldn't even look at the screens.
47:28Who cares about like what the third screen is?
47:30It's surface stuff.
47:32But I'm watching your stuff and you're really like – you're going through some
47:35screen on I think a Rivian.
47:36I'm like, I didn't know that screen was there.
47:38Like you do every single – like Doug DeMuro style like pointed everything in the car.
47:43Yeah.
47:44But also like pretty intelligent.
47:46You're not just like, look at that, look at that.
47:47Wow.
47:48I mean I'm learning along with our audience as well.
47:50Their cars are changing.
47:51I don't know everything.
47:52I always say we're seven years behind what's actually being worked on.
47:56Oh, yeah.
47:57Oh, 100%.
47:58Yeah.
47:59More than that.
48:00But yeah.
48:01But hang on.
48:02How – the stuff that you're doing, especially with the chargers and the charging
48:04networks and if you're not – by the way, we're so far into this that we have not
48:08even dropped like – you're like, who the hell is this guy?
48:10Which is a question I just asked.
48:12Out of spec, Kyle, on YouTube, you got –
48:15Out of spec reviews.
48:16Out of spec.
48:17We have nine – how many channels do you have now?
48:19So the intention of the master plan, which that's the only plan I have is here's
48:22what I want to do.
48:23There's very little planning that happens in out of spec is 17 channels.
48:26I think that's a portfolio that I think covers everything that I'm interested in
48:30when it comes to vehicles, how we power them, how we use them.
48:33So is it fair for the YouTube – for the second largest search engine on the
48:37internet, is it fair to just type in out of spec, Kyle, and we'll hit one of yours?
48:40Yeah.
48:41Just type in out of spec.
48:42Out of spec.
48:43Yeah.
48:44You'll find something you like.
48:45I feel so deep.
48:46Are you serious?
48:47You've got a C in physics?
48:49How do you – where does the learning of kilowatt, megawatt, amp like using it?
48:54I come from a hardcore user experience, right?
48:56I mean especially planning for the cannonball days and figuring out EVs.
49:00I wanted to know what the limitations were, how I can work around them.
49:04And I feel like just living with the products and just trying to figure out
49:07why is my charging slowing down?
49:09Why is this better than that?
49:11You just learn stuff along the way.
49:13Wow.
49:14But like when you go to a dumbass Electrify America, like the panel –
49:18I've been to that one too.
49:20Right.
49:21And it's so inscrutable.
49:22And it's literally showing like two numbers.
49:24And you're like, how much can you – I mean what do you do?
49:26Do you open your phone?
49:27Do you get a physics textbook?
49:28You start hacking into the car's CAN systems and you're like,
49:31what's the car requesting?
49:32And what are the temperatures of the battery?
49:34And what's the temperature of the handle?
49:35And a lot of it is thermal based for electric vehicles.
49:38So you start getting a little temperature gun and you play around.
49:43There's no rulebook.
49:44He's got a very curious mind.
49:45And luckily –
49:46Do you ever care about nothing else?
49:47Yeah.
49:48Right.
49:49Do you ever shock yourself real bad?
49:50No.
49:51I am worried about that though.
49:53So you're going in and touching the orange cables?
49:55No, no, no.
49:56I'm not – that would be a bad day.
49:58Me and mechanical working on anything doesn't go so well.
50:01No.
50:02Okay.
50:03Well, here's the real question though, right?
50:04So strictly to a laptop you're kind of – or whatever you can glue.
50:07I'm not a hacker.
50:08I'm not an engineer.
50:09I'm just a – I would say a hardcore user that films videos of driving stuff.
50:14But here's the real question, right?
50:15So you're a young car enthusiast.
50:17Why the hell EVs?
50:19Because I know more young car enthusiasts than I can count that are like,
50:23man, EVs are stupid.
50:24EVs are a scam.
50:25EVs are a fad.
50:26How did you become interested in EVs?
50:29I think I always have been.
50:31I remember my dad had a – so my dad is a car enthusiast,
50:35and I think he's got a little bit of the same fascination I have.
50:38He went from an E60 M5 to a Prius.
50:41V10.
50:42Wow.
50:43Why?
50:44Why?
50:45Because he was like, look at the battery interacting with the motor
50:46and all this stuff.
50:47And, oh, you can gain efficiency.
50:48So it's genetic.
50:49It's genetic.
50:50And I think a lot of it comes from just trying to learn about that stuff.
50:52So you found – you were enthusiastic about efficiency.
50:55I don't know.
50:57I mean, I don't know, maybe.
50:59Or are you super clever and you saw an untapped market?
51:03Look at this cynic over here.
51:04Yeah, I don't think that was it at all.
51:06Cynic in the yellow sweater.
51:07I definitely have been cynical towards our industry not catching up
51:10with electric cars fast enough.
51:12Say more about that.
51:13Well, we can talk all day about –
51:15No, no, talk, talk, talk.
51:16What do you mean?
51:17I think consumers are very ill-informed by general automotive reviewers
51:21covering electric cars.
51:22Nice.
51:23He's looking at us, by the way.
51:24No, not necessarily.
51:25No, no.
51:26No, it's fine.
51:27You guys own and live with them.
51:28But ultimately it's like – I thought – something really woke me up,
51:33which I thought was cool.
51:34You know Calvin at Porsche, of course.
51:35Sure.
51:36And so Calvin and I were talking years ago.
51:38I was involved reviewing Taycons since the early days.
51:42And after a few loans, Calvin was like,
51:44I'm no longer loaning Taycons to journalists that don't have home chargers.
51:47It's not a representative experience to give a car
51:50and then just complain about – I can complain about charging all day long.
51:53Sure.
51:54But it's not tied to the vehicle.
51:55Right.
51:56Look, I said that the other day.
51:57I said this insane notion that people that own EVs don't do 99%
52:02of their charging at home.
52:03Yeah.
52:04It's got to stop.
52:05It's just got to stop.
52:06And you're right.
52:07The journalists perpetuate that.
52:08Totally.
52:09And I do too because I focus a lot on DC fast-charging problems.
52:12Sure.
52:13Which I think electric – whatever this electric revolution people say is going to happen
52:16will not work until it's as easy to charge your electric car as it is filling a gas car.
52:20But two things can be true.
52:21One, because me and Farrah, for instance, are infamous maybe
52:26for just making videos bashing Electrify America specifically,
52:30but now I'm bashing EVgo even more.
52:33And people are like, well, how can you like your truck?
52:36And I'm like, because 99% of the time I wake up and it's charged to exactly –
52:40like if I want 73% on my phone in bed, I say, tomorrow I need three extra percent.
52:45Yeah.
52:46And it's set.
52:48But I remember – I think it was a car driver – I'm going to say it was like 2004 or 2005.
52:55I was a subscriber.
52:56Motor train always sucked.
52:57Fair enough.
52:58Yeah.
52:59I get the issue, right?
53:00And it's just standard month of car driver, and it's like Chubba's editor letter.
53:06Yep.
53:07Prius sucks.
53:10Just like Prius totally sucks.
53:12Like what a lame car.
53:14I think Motor Train had just made the Prius the car of the year.
53:17Oh, yeah.
53:18So they were doing kind of a reaction to it.
53:19Yeah.
53:20And then Brock Yates.
53:21Hybrids are stupid because they're stupid.
53:25Right.
53:26And like a Hummer pollutes less than a Prius.
53:29Sure.
53:30Of course.
53:31Patrick Bedard.
53:32I'm calling all these guys out.
53:34Like mathematically proving that a Prius is not efficient.
53:38Right?
53:39So now that zeitgeist of the old grumpy enthusiast dudes who hate EVs.
53:45You know, hybrids are the future, man.
53:47Right.
53:48Like, oh, man.
53:49Especially in the last couple months.
53:51It's just a narrative.
53:52It's just a shifting narrative.
53:53Absolutely.
53:54Yeah.
53:55But I think you said it best earlier, which is I didn't get into EVs because there was
53:58a business opportunity or because of anything.
54:00I just thought it was interesting.
54:02And I like things that move and that are powered and that are improving rapidly and keeping
54:07pace with it.
54:08And to be honest, it's sort of a right place, right time.
54:10There's no way I could have gotten into YouTube or my job or building out of spec without
54:15electric cars.
54:16There's no way around that.
54:17I couldn't have gotten into this and said, I'm just reviewing Pagani's and whatever.
54:21You could have.
54:22I know a lot of people that do that.
54:23Maybe.
54:24I don't think it would have been as attainable or easy.
54:25No.
54:26I agree.
54:27It is a low barrier to entry.
54:28Not many even journalists were asking to drive them or review them or check them out.
54:32Well, and then it's a double whammy because, and you know this, dealerships, a lot of people
54:37might go in to look at an EV and the dealer's like, nah.
54:41They shove them in the wrong direction.
54:43If you think your average car reviewer is uneducated and ill-informed about EVs, the
54:49dealers are a little farther behind.
54:52Yeah.
54:53Except for BMW, I will say.
54:55Are they doing a good job?
54:56Yeah.
54:57Every once in a while, I'll just take my nephew or something and we'll just go to car dealerships
55:01just to look at all cars in one place.
55:04And I talked to BMW about this.
55:06And since 2017, when I was a thing, they've really hammered down on their dealers, don't
55:14shove them off.
55:15Yeah.
55:16The dealer has, I mean, there's such a huge turnover.
55:19There's almost no incentive to do training programs and things.
55:22It's just sell cars.
55:23Yeah, exactly.
55:24Yeah.
55:25It's way easier to sell a combustion car than an electric car.
55:27Yeah.
55:28There's no way around that.
55:29But hey, I want to pause right now.
55:34Take a break.
55:35And then come back and record part two with Kyle Carter.
55:37And we're going to record part two with Kyle and answer some of your questions.
55:42So I got a ton more-
55:44I got a ton of questions.
55:45For Kyle.
55:46I want to get into more on his background.
55:50I got a lot of questions about how Out of Spec is working.
55:54Yeah.
55:55And we should talk about what he's actually doing that I think is so impressive, which
55:58is your range tests, your tow tests.
56:00I love testing.
56:01Your off-road tow tests.
56:02I want to hear about your off-road tow testing, all the truck testing you've done.
56:04Your off-road tests.
56:05Yeah.
56:06And then we got to talk about-
56:07As well as, I just want to talk about the state of EVs and the consumer, which we just
56:09now kind of touched on, but there's a lot more I want to go into.
56:11And then I got a lot of Rivian stuff.
56:13Hell yeah.
56:14Part two, ladies and gentlemen, please join us for the next episode.
56:17Next week.
56:18Next week with the man, the myth, the legend, Kyle Conner, Out of Spec.
56:24Out of Spec.
56:43The Inevitable Vodcast brought to you by the all-electric Nissan Ariya.
56:48Inspired by the future.
56:49Designed for the now.
56:54you