MotorTrend's Ed Loh & Jonny Lieberman sit down with Mike Kunigonis
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MotorTranscript
00:00:00Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motortrend.
00:00:03Inspired by the future, designed for the now.
00:00:15Hi there, and welcome to another episode of The Inevitable.
00:00:19This is Motortrend's podcast, our video podcast,
00:00:23also known as a vodcast, about the future of the car,
00:00:26the future of transportation, the future
00:00:28of cracked windshields.
00:00:30In fact, will cracked windshields even have a future?
00:00:33Not if our next guest has anything to do with it.
00:00:37We are talking to Corning Automotive Glass Solutions
00:00:41VP and General Manager, Mike Kunigonis.
00:00:44Well done, Ed.
00:00:45Came all the way to us from sort of middle of New York,
00:00:49halfway between New York City and Toronto.
00:00:52And he's going to tell us all about, yeah, it's cold.
00:00:55He's going to tell us all about what's going on
00:00:57with the glass in our car, not just the windshield
00:01:00and not just how Corning is trying to make them
00:01:03impervious to cracks, but also what's going on
00:01:07with all the screens in the car, and then, oddly,
00:01:11optical fiber.
00:01:13Well, odd until you hear what this guy has to say
00:01:16about fiber optics.
00:01:17Fiber optics.
00:01:18And yeah, so Mike Kunigonis, super nice guy.
00:01:21B channel with him.
00:01:22First podcast ever.
00:01:24Ever.
00:01:25He is a 20-plus-year veteran of Corning.
00:01:28He's an engineer.
00:01:29He was in the Army.
00:01:31He's a father, dad of two young girls.
00:01:34Super nice guy, super knowledgeable.
00:01:37And again, we're going to talk to him all about
00:01:39what Corning Glass is doing.
00:01:41They, by the way, they are probably what you,
00:01:45if you're watching us on your tablet, on an iPhone,
00:01:49even a laptop.
00:01:50Laptop.
00:01:51TV screen.
00:01:53Good chance that Corning supplied the Glass
00:01:55for that.
00:01:56Also, their products are on, so they're on iPhones.
00:02:01They're on iPads.
00:02:02All smartphones.
00:02:03They're on Android phones.
00:02:05And then they have been making these fiber optic
00:02:09cables for all sorts of different manufacturers,
00:02:12like they might provide the Wi-Fi in your home,
00:02:15or they might be part of the data transmission cable
00:02:17that goes between the continent you live on
00:02:19and another one.
00:02:20Who knows?
00:02:21We're going to talk to Mike and get all the
00:02:23answers about what the future of Glass is
00:02:26in the car from a EV, software-drive vehicle,
00:02:31kind of everything perspective.
00:02:33So, without further ado, Mike Kunigonis.
00:02:35So, Mike Kunigonis, VP and General Manager
00:02:38of Corning Automotive Glass Solutions.
00:02:40Thank you so much for joining us here
00:02:42on The Inevitable.
00:02:43It is your very first podcast.
00:02:45So, we will not take it easy at all.
00:02:49We chatted with your colleague at CES.
00:02:54So, I don't know.
00:02:56Let's start with newest stuff or future-facing.
00:03:01That's the podcast first.
00:03:03And I understand you guys announced or are
00:03:06working on some new optical fiber solutions
00:03:11for some kind of problem we might be facing
00:03:14in the future with vehicles.
00:03:16Can you explain what this is?
00:03:18Yeah.
00:03:19So, maybe we can start with what is optical fiber?
00:03:21Yes.
00:03:22That'd be great.
00:03:23So, optical fiber is just a piece of glass.
00:03:25It's actually two pieces of glass.
00:03:27And you've got an index of refraction,
00:03:29the two different types of glass that are
00:03:31where light is kind of propagating
00:03:33through the glass.
00:03:34And basically, versus copper,
00:03:36you can go a lot further distances
00:03:38and you can do a lot more data transmission
00:03:41over that.
00:03:42So, material was invented 50-plus years ago.
00:03:46And we know this is fiber optics.
00:03:48Fiber optics, right.
00:03:49Yeah, fiber optics.
00:03:51So, this is how people communicate
00:03:53between continents, between cities,
00:03:55now in cities, now going to our houses.
00:03:57So, it just keeps getting closer and closer
00:03:59and closer to folks.
00:04:00And so, it's probably going to go get
00:04:02into the vehicle.
00:04:03Right now, data is transmitted inside
00:04:05the vehicle with copper.
00:04:07And because we're putting so much more
00:04:09sensors in the vehicles,
00:04:10we got more bigger displays,
00:04:12we got autonomy going on.
00:04:15You want really low latency in the vehicle.
00:04:17The amount of bandwidth moving around
00:04:19in the vehicle is a lot more.
00:04:21And in the ECUs, they're putting
00:04:23less and less of those.
00:04:24So, they're making sure that each
00:04:26of those ECUs do more work.
00:04:27Right.
00:04:28And so, as a result of that,
00:04:30we're getting, I think,
00:04:31at the end of the decade,
00:04:33where we're really pushing
00:04:35twisted pair and coax
00:04:38in the vehicle to the limit.
00:04:40And next decade,
00:04:43you're going to see optical fiber
00:04:45now replacing that.
00:04:47What's the bandwidth jump?
00:04:49How much more data can you push
00:04:51through a similar sized fiber optic cable
00:04:53as compared to copper wiring?
00:04:55Yeah.
00:04:56It's nearly infinite.
00:04:58Yeah.
00:04:59So, I don't think you have
00:05:01a tremendous amount of future-proofing
00:05:03that you're going to be able to get
00:05:05with the optical fiber.
00:05:06Copper systems, they basically
00:05:08redesign the connectors,
00:05:10the types of cables,
00:05:12every SOP
00:05:14because the bandwidth keeps going up.
00:05:15And so, you're going to get
00:05:16a start of production.
00:05:17A start of production.
00:05:18Breaking down the jargon.
00:05:19I appreciate that.
00:05:20And so, you're going to be able
00:05:22to future-proof because you can get
00:05:23a lot more bandwidth through
00:05:24the optical fiber.
00:05:25We kind of use,
00:05:27from a technical jargon,
00:05:29when you're starting to move
00:05:31100 gigabits
00:05:33per meter,
00:05:36per second per meter
00:05:38through the media,
00:05:40you kind of get to where
00:05:41economics better work
00:05:43for optics versus copper.
00:05:46So, in other words,
00:05:47on a dumb vehicle,
00:05:49you're not pushing that much data.
00:05:50But then, when you start
00:05:51to get modern vehicles,
00:05:53you will be getting
00:05:55massive amounts of data.
00:05:56It's just going to get more
00:05:57and more as cloud computing
00:05:58takes over the car.
00:06:00Then, the fiber optical cable
00:06:03solution pays off.
00:06:04Yes.
00:06:05This is great.
00:06:07Let's break down some of this
00:06:08because I like where we started
00:06:09with what is optical fiber.
00:06:10Can I ask one more real quick?
00:06:11I imagine the weight savings
00:06:13because like Rivian famously
00:06:14We're going to get there.
00:06:15We're going to get there.
00:06:16Famously on their Gen 2,
00:06:18they just pulled,
00:06:19I forget,
00:06:201.6 miles plus
00:06:211.4 miles of cable.
00:06:2245 pounds of copper
00:06:24out of the vehicle.
00:06:25So, is it a massive
00:06:26weight savings?
00:06:27It is.
00:06:28It's probably about
00:06:29a 30% to 40% weight savings
00:06:31for about the same amount
00:06:32of cable
00:06:33because the cables are smaller.
00:06:34So, they're going to be able
00:06:35to bend better.
00:06:36So, you can kind of put them
00:06:37in different places
00:06:39inside the vehicles.
00:06:40Maybe get to a camera
00:06:41that's in the door
00:06:42that's articulating
00:06:43back and forth.
00:06:44So, you're going to be able
00:06:45to get the weight savings.
00:06:46And, the cables
00:06:47because they're smaller,
00:06:48they're a lot easier
00:06:49to install.
00:06:50So, if you think about
00:06:51the car companies
00:06:52and the folks
00:06:53that are on the assembly lines,
00:06:54it's going to be a lot easier
00:06:55to move those gigantic
00:06:56cabling harnesses
00:06:57into places
00:06:58in those
00:06:59crannies in the vehicle.
00:07:00I was at the
00:07:01G-Wagon factory
00:07:02in Graz, Austria.
00:07:03Magnus Steyr
00:07:04has a factory
00:07:05and they had
00:07:06the wiring loom
00:07:07for a G-Wagon
00:07:08that's 6 miles
00:07:09of copper.
00:07:10And, it's about
00:07:11100 pounds.
00:07:12And, there was
00:07:13these women
00:07:14mostly did it
00:07:15but they would
00:07:16front load them
00:07:17with this huge
00:07:18wiring loom
00:07:19and they'd go
00:07:20and splash it
00:07:21in the pan
00:07:22of the vehicle.
00:07:23And, it was insane.
00:07:24And, that was
00:07:25the last gen.
00:07:26I don't know
00:07:27if this gen
00:07:28is probably more.
00:07:29Yeah, they just
00:07:30keep getting bigger
00:07:31and more complex
00:07:32and you put them
00:07:33in the car
00:07:34and you never
00:07:35want to take them out.
00:07:36You can't.
00:07:37It's actually glass?
00:07:38Like, it is
00:07:39it's a
00:07:40It's actually glass, yes.
00:07:41Okay.
00:07:42So, it's
00:07:43there's two different
00:07:44types of glass here.
00:07:45We then kind of
00:07:46put a coating on it
00:07:47then we put it
00:07:48in a cable.
00:07:49But, the actually
00:07:50part where the
00:07:51light goes through
00:07:52that's very
00:07:53very small there.
00:07:54And,
00:07:55you're basically
00:07:56playing on
00:07:57you're trying to
00:07:58kind of trap
00:07:59the light
00:08:00in this tunnel.
00:08:01Right.
00:08:02So, you have
00:08:03what's called
00:08:04the index of refraction.
00:08:05It's literally
00:08:06the inner core
00:08:07and the outer core
00:08:08or the outer part
00:08:09are different
00:08:10and so it kind of
00:08:11bounces around.
00:08:12So, you know
00:08:13you see like
00:08:14a light going into
00:08:15a pool
00:08:16and it kind of
00:08:17shifts
00:08:18as it goes
00:08:19from air
00:08:20into glass
00:08:21so that's like
00:08:22the air
00:08:23and the glass
00:08:24have
00:08:25water
00:08:26have two
00:08:27different
00:08:28indexes of
00:08:29refraction.
00:08:30So, we have
00:08:31the same thing
00:08:32going on
00:08:33and we just
00:08:34want to
00:08:35get rid of
00:08:36all the
00:08:37degradation
00:08:38inside the
00:08:39car.
00:08:40And the
00:08:41what's bouncing
00:08:42it's literally
00:08:43the ones
00:08:44and zeros
00:08:45right?
00:08:46It's a laser
00:08:47light.
00:08:48So, on one
00:08:49side you
00:08:50might have
00:08:51an LED
00:08:52you might
00:08:53have a laser
00:08:54depending on
00:08:55what
00:08:56wavelength
00:08:57you're working
00:08:58at.
00:08:59But, basically
00:09:00that light
00:09:01is just
00:09:02bouncing
00:09:03back and
00:09:05forth.
00:09:06So, you
00:09:07might
00:09:08have
00:09:09a
00:09:10laser
00:09:11that's
00:09:12bouncing
00:09:13back and
00:09:14forth
00:09:15and
00:09:16you
00:09:17might
00:09:18have
00:09:19a
00:09:20laser
00:09:21that's
00:09:22bouncing
00:09:23back and
00:09:24forth
00:09:25and
00:09:26you
00:09:27might
00:09:28have
00:09:29a
00:09:30laser
00:09:31that's
00:09:32bouncing
00:09:33back and
00:09:34forth
00:09:35and
00:09:36you
00:09:37might
00:09:38have
00:09:39a
00:09:40laser
00:09:41that's
00:09:42bouncing
00:09:43back and
00:09:44forth
00:09:45and
00:09:46you
00:09:47might
00:09:48have
00:09:49a
00:09:50laser
00:09:51that's
00:09:52bouncing
00:09:53back and
00:09:54forth
00:09:55and
00:09:56you
00:09:57might
00:09:58have
00:09:59a
00:10:00laser
00:10:01that's
00:10:02bouncing
00:10:03back and forth
00:10:04and
00:10:05you
00:10:06might
00:10:07have
00:10:08a
00:10:09laser
00:10:10that's
00:10:11bouncing
00:10:12back and
00:10:13forth
00:10:14and
00:10:15you
00:10:16might
00:10:17have
00:10:18a
00:10:19laser
00:10:20that's
00:10:21bouncing
00:10:22back and
00:10:23forth
00:10:24and
00:10:25you
00:10:26might
00:10:27have
00:10:28a
00:10:29laser
00:10:30that's
00:10:31bouncing
00:10:32back and forth
00:10:33and
00:10:34you
00:10:35might
00:10:36have
00:10:37a
00:10:38laser
00:10:39that's
00:10:40bouncing
00:10:41back and
00:10:42forth
00:10:43and
00:10:44you
00:10:45might
00:10:46have
00:10:47a
00:10:48laser
00:10:49that's
00:10:50bouncing
00:10:51back and
00:10:52forth
00:10:53and
00:10:54you
00:10:55might
00:10:56have
00:10:57a
00:10:58laser
00:10:59that's
00:11:00bouncing
00:11:01back and forth
00:11:02and
00:11:03you
00:11:04might
00:11:05have
00:11:06a
00:11:07laser
00:11:08that's
00:11:09bouncing
00:11:10back and
00:11:11forth
00:11:12and
00:11:13you
00:11:14might
00:11:15have
00:11:16a
00:11:17laser
00:11:18that's
00:11:19bouncing
00:11:20back and
00:11:21forth
00:11:22and
00:11:23you
00:11:24might
00:11:25have
00:11:26a
00:11:27laser
00:11:28that's
00:11:29bouncing
00:11:31back and forth
00:11:32and
00:11:33you
00:11:34might
00:11:35have
00:11:36a
00:11:37laser
00:11:38that's
00:11:39bouncing
00:11:40back and
00:11:41forth
00:11:42and
00:11:43you
00:11:44might
00:11:45have
00:11:46a
00:11:47laser
00:11:48that's
00:11:49bouncing
00:11:50back and
00:11:51forth
00:11:52and
00:11:53you
00:11:54might
00:11:55have
00:11:56a
00:11:57laser
00:11:58that's
00:11:59bouncing
00:12:00back and forth
00:12:01and
00:12:02you
00:12:03might have
00:12:04a
00:12:05laser
00:12:06that's
00:12:07bouncing
00:12:08back and
00:12:09forth
00:12:10and
00:12:11you
00:12:12might
00:12:13have
00:12:14a
00:12:15laser
00:12:16that's
00:12:17bouncing
00:12:18back and
00:12:19forth
00:12:20and
00:12:21you
00:12:22might
00:12:23have
00:12:24a
00:12:25laser
00:12:26that's
00:12:27bouncing
00:12:28back and
00:12:29forth
00:12:30and
00:12:31you
00:12:32might
00:12:33have
00:12:34a
00:12:35laser
00:12:36that's
00:12:37bouncing
00:12:38back and
00:12:39forth
00:12:40and
00:12:41you
00:12:42might
00:12:43have
00:12:44a
00:12:45laser
00:12:46that's
00:12:47bouncing
00:12:48back and
00:12:49forth
00:12:50and
00:12:51you
00:12:52might
00:12:53have
00:12:54a
00:12:55laser
00:12:56that's
00:12:57bouncing
00:12:58back and
00:12:59forth
00:13:00and
00:13:01you
00:13:02might
00:13:03have
00:13:04a
00:13:05laser
00:13:06that's
00:13:07bouncing
00:13:08back and
00:13:09forth
00:13:10and
00:13:11you
00:13:12might
00:13:13have
00:13:14a
00:13:15laser
00:13:16that's
00:13:17bouncing
00:13:18back and
00:13:19forth
00:13:20and
00:13:21you
00:13:22might
00:13:23have
00:13:24a
00:13:25laser
00:13:26that's
00:13:27bouncing
00:13:28back and
00:13:29forth
00:13:30and
00:13:31you
00:13:32might
00:13:33have
00:13:34a
00:13:35laser
00:13:36that's
00:13:37bouncing
00:13:38back and
00:13:39forth
00:13:40and
00:13:41you
00:13:42might
00:13:43have
00:13:44a
00:13:45laser
00:13:46that's
00:13:47bouncing
00:13:48back and
00:13:49forth
00:13:50and
00:13:51you
00:13:52might
00:13:53have
00:13:54a
00:13:55laser
00:13:57that's
00:13:58bouncing
00:13:59back and
00:14:00forth
00:14:01and
00:14:02you
00:14:03might
00:14:04have
00:14:05a
00:14:06laser
00:14:07that's
00:14:08bouncing
00:14:09back and
00:14:10forth
00:14:11and
00:14:12you
00:14:13might
00:14:14have
00:14:15a
00:14:16laser
00:14:17that's
00:14:18bouncing
00:14:19back and
00:14:20forth
00:14:21and
00:14:22you
00:14:23might
00:14:24have
00:14:25a
00:14:26laser
00:14:28that's
00:14:29bouncing
00:14:30back and
00:14:31forth
00:14:32and
00:14:33you
00:14:34might
00:14:35have
00:14:36a
00:14:37laser
00:14:38that's
00:14:39bouncing
00:14:40back and
00:14:41forth
00:14:42and
00:14:43you
00:14:44might
00:14:45have
00:14:46a
00:14:47laser
00:14:48that's
00:14:49bouncing
00:14:50back and
00:14:51forth
00:14:54I think it comes down to, like, how are we going to solve autonomy, right?
00:14:59Right.
00:15:00And autonomous systems, they're going to use a lot of sensors and a lot of different types
00:15:05of sensors, cameras, LIDARs.
00:15:08LIDARs have got to be bandwidth intensive, right?
00:15:10Yeah.
00:15:11And then the latency.
00:15:12You've got to be able to – a car has got to make a decision very, very quickly and
00:15:16integrate that across multiple sensors all at the same time.
00:15:20So you want very low latency.
00:15:22You're going to have very high bandwidth, and if they have a lot of redundancy out there,
00:15:26that just is pushing up the bandwidth.
00:15:28Right.
00:15:29So I think based on how we solve that problem as an industry, that will kind of create that
00:15:35tipping point of when you'll see a lot more optics in there.
00:15:38And dictate, like, the size of the pipe, so to speak.
00:15:40Yeah.
00:15:41Just like how – I mean, because, like, again, my understanding is there's almost no limit
00:15:46on what could be transmitted with fiber optics.
00:15:49Yeah.
00:15:50So it's a size of data that –
00:15:52It changes out the –
00:15:53It's a library.
00:15:54Yeah.
00:15:55It changes out the ends of the transmitter and the receiver, but the cable itself is
00:15:57pretty future-proofed.
00:15:58If you're listening and you're like, what are these guys talking about?
00:16:02Our man, Frank Marcus –
00:16:03I'm saying that too.
00:16:04Did a great story on this from CES.
00:16:08And really, in his intro, talks about how right now, like, the most advanced software-defined
00:16:14vehicles out there are pushing around about one gigabyte of data.
00:16:18But in – he's speculating in three – to your point, by the start of the next decade,
00:16:24it likely will see a tenfold increase.
00:16:26Roughly, you know, ten gigabytes of data being pushed around inside the vehicle.
00:16:30Yeah, because 2028 now is only three years away.
00:16:32Yes.
00:16:33Exactly.
00:16:34Olympics, baby.
00:16:35So – and to Johnny's point – and this is where I kind of will come back to, because
00:16:39you were – you asked, how do you know?
00:16:42Like, how do you plan for this?
00:16:43Yeah.
00:16:44Like, when you go to CES and you see – like, NVIDIA is, like, the hottest thing.
00:16:47They're talking about these ThinkWell GPUs.
00:16:49And we're paying attention to these car manufacturers that are announcing that, oh,
00:16:53we're putting – I was talking to some Chinese manufacturers and they're like,
00:16:56we don't just have two NVIDIA Drive Oranges.
00:17:00We have four because we're future-proofing.
00:17:02I'm just like, this sounds crazy expensive.
00:17:04Yeah.
00:17:05But then it's – then you start talking about, like, well, how much data do you actually
00:17:08need in the car?
00:17:09And then how much data are you going to move around?
00:17:12And we're looking at what – I think Frank mentioned that the upper limit of copper
00:17:17is – was it 200 gigabytes per second?
00:17:23No.
00:17:24That's the lower limit of optical is 200 gigabytes per second, which sounds like a
00:17:28lot.
00:17:29Yeah.
00:17:30That's like – that's a –
00:17:31But we can go lower.
00:17:32But we can go higher, too.
00:17:33Right.
00:17:34So what do you – in your position, as you look towards the future, what signals – like,
00:17:40are you looking at these chip manufacturers going, okay, we got to start, like, pushing
00:17:45or start ramping or, like, how does it work on your side?
00:17:48Yeah.
00:17:49So it all starts with the car guys.
00:17:51Okay.
00:17:52We go to the car companies and we do a lot of future-proofing sessions with them where
00:17:56we'll get in front of them and kind of understand, what are you doing from a design
00:17:59standpoint?
00:18:00What are you doing from a connectivity standpoint?
00:18:01What kind of bandwidth are you going to need?
00:18:02So we can figure out what is the next problem challenge that OEM is going to have.
00:18:08And so we'll ask them point-blank, you know, what type of bandwidth do you think you're
00:18:12going to be moving through the car?
00:18:14And then when they tell us and they say, we ask you, well, which tier one do you want
00:18:17us to work with to help solve that problem?
00:18:19Because we're pretty far back in the supply chain as a material company.
00:18:23We'll find out who that is and then we'll kind of work with them on what the protocols
00:18:26are going to be and kind of target of the dates that we're going to need to be ready.
00:18:31And then we kind of put our innovation machine in gear to go help the car companies help
00:18:35the industry.
00:18:36Because this is not like – we're not talking about – I know we talked a little bit about
00:18:40like home personal electronics or G-Wagon wiring harnesses.
00:18:44You're not going in and swapping this out of your vehicle.
00:18:46No.
00:18:47This is baked in.
00:18:48Yeah.
00:18:49Because you said SOP, starter production.
00:18:51You need to be in a manufacturer's plan from like the pencil sketch of the vehicle and
00:18:57whatever the screens you're going to put in, you're like, OK, if you're going to
00:18:59want to do that, then you're going to need to upgrade from copper to optical and then
00:19:04become part of the manufacturing process of the vehicle.
00:19:07Yeah.
00:19:08Absolutely.
00:19:09And I think our first biggest problem was fiber optic seams with lasers and that seems
00:19:14kind of hard to do.
00:19:16I don't think – I've got to have a very harsh environment in the car.
00:19:19How is it going to work?
00:19:20Right.
00:19:21And you mentioned Fios and Verizon.
00:19:23We've worked with customers like that to go solve a lot of problems to be able to go
00:19:27make connectivity work with optical fiber.
00:19:30So first thing we've got to do is prove that actually the tech works.
00:19:33So they say, OK, this actually works.
00:19:35And then we go, what's going to be that intersection of when the bandwidth is going
00:19:40to require me to start to have that conversation like should copper or should fiber be doing
00:19:46this from an economic standpoint?
00:19:48And then once they get there, then they get all those ancillary benefits around weight,
00:19:51installation, things of that nature.
00:19:53But that starts at the top of the company and then in the technical engineering parts
00:19:59of the company.
00:20:00We'll be doing conversations with both of those so that we kind of get the timing right.
00:20:04I just find it interesting you were saying with – it's more flexible and you can
00:20:08put it in more places than copper.
00:20:10I was just thinking like you said, like a Lamborghini door.
00:20:14You can maybe like articulate it more now or like Jeep doors that come off instead of
00:20:18having that crazy – what is it?
00:20:20Like 10-pin connector.
00:20:21You can probably have a much smaller, easier kind of connector because that's annoying
00:20:25once you've unscrewed a Jeep or a Bronco door.
00:20:28The hardest part is then getting the pins in and pins out.
00:20:31Yeah.
00:20:32Let's talk about that.
00:20:33What are the – there are certain requirements obviously to become part of like literally
00:20:39the foundation of the vehicle and a lot of it is the durability aspect.
00:20:43So like I can imagine that the advantage of optical fiber is that it doesn't like short
00:20:51out theoretically, right?
00:20:53No.
00:20:54What about like vibration or are there issues with like – are there wear and tear issues
00:21:00with what's essentially – I mean I'm still weird.
00:21:02It's glass fiber.
00:21:03Like doesn't it break?
00:21:04Like can I – at some point, you mentioned you can wrap around a pencil.
00:21:07But if I just – does it snap?
00:21:10No.
00:21:11We actually used to do this test with the Verizon guys where we would take a staple
00:21:15gun and we would staple the cable and the glass would have no problem.
00:21:19So the cable, not an issue.
00:21:22Now, you think about vibration and other goop getting into the vehicle like windshield
00:21:27wiper fluid.
00:21:28Water.
00:21:29Water.
00:21:30Free soft.
00:21:31It's raining outside.
00:21:32Right.
00:21:33So your file system, that sits in a manhole and it gets frozen and then it unthaws and
00:21:38then there's all type of stuff that's inside there.
00:21:40No problem.
00:21:41So we – not only do we make the fiber, we make the cable and then we make the connectors
00:21:46that are on there.
00:21:47So it's kind of a system approach.
00:21:49We'll put all those things together based on the use case to go solve the solution for
00:21:53the customer.
00:21:54Now, can you splice optical cable?
00:21:57Like if I go in and I – oops, I snipped the wrong wire and then I'm going to reconnect
00:22:02it.
00:22:03Like it's repairable?
00:22:04Yeah.
00:22:05You talked about earlier repairing it off in the ocean, the submarine cables.
00:22:10So in the car is actually a little easier.
00:22:13Well, it depends where it's located.
00:22:16Yeah, you got to get to – you got to be able to get to it.
00:22:19But no, you can actually splice two fibers together.
00:22:23You can do that where you melt the glass back together or you put two connectors on the
00:22:27edges and then you made them together that way.
00:22:29OK.
00:22:30You have all – the bandwidth loss inside the vehicle is really low for the fiber.
00:22:35So you can have a lot of connections and you'll still have plenty of bandwidth light that's
00:22:40able to go from – to the transmitter to the receiver.
00:22:43OK.
00:22:44And I imagine that it actually is probably a lower power requirement to use optic fibers
00:22:49than to use copper.
00:22:50Yeah.
00:22:51I haven't actually done the math on the power to run them.
00:22:55I mean you have to do an optical to electrical conversion in the ECU.
00:22:58But you go optical.
00:23:00It's very – it's basically passive.
00:23:02OK.
00:23:03So we'll wind this up on optical and then we'll talk about other Corning products.
00:23:06But the interesting thing for me is that, yes, we seem to be – the cars are moving
00:23:10towards more, again, software-defined vehicles, more software flowing through it, higher processors.
00:23:15But at the same time, as Johnny mentioned, like with Rivian, they reached their big announcement
00:23:18from the second – from the first gen to the second gen of the R series vehicles, the R1S
00:23:24and R1T, is that they complicated – sorry, they simplified the number of ECUs.
00:23:29They went down to what, seven or something?
00:23:31Seventeen to seven.
00:23:32Seventeen to seven and pulled out miles, 1.4 –
00:23:36I think it was actually 1.6.
00:23:381.6.
00:23:391.6 miles of wiring.
00:23:401.4 miles of copper wiring.
00:23:42All on this path towards what I still think is the holy grail for electric vehicles and
00:23:47most modern vehicles is weight reduction.
00:23:49Like getting the weight out of the vehicle is going to be the hardest thing because you
00:23:52got these giant batteries.
00:23:54So this is all adding to it.
00:23:56So it's fascinating stuff.
00:23:59Probably not something we're going to – is the manufacturer ever going to – first of
00:24:03all, is any manufacturer out there running optical fiber yet or your optical fiber yet?
00:24:07There was a standard about a decade ago in Europe called MOST, M-O-S-T, and they were
00:24:14putting some plastic optical fiber in the vehicles.
00:24:17Okay.
00:24:18So there's some experience out there, but the industry is going to want to move to glass.
00:24:23Okay.
00:24:24Do you remember what –
00:24:25No one's doing it today, but we're talking to a bunch of different OEMs in the tiers,
00:24:30and I would expect to see this out there in the next couple of years.
00:24:34This sounds like – let me make a wild guess and I know you can't confirm.
00:24:372029 S-class because Mercedes loves to have hyper technology on their new S-classes.
00:24:43Well, to that point, do you expect – well, tell the consumers.
00:24:47Will they be like, hey, man, your car is good.
00:24:49Optical fiber.
00:24:50Is that something that will be –
00:24:52That's a great selling point of the vehicle.
00:24:55I'd like that.
00:24:56We'd love to partner with a car company to be able to do that.
00:24:58Well, we can help because I think it's pretty cool.
00:25:01No, but I remember one time Audi was like –
00:25:03Audi was the first manufacturer to use LED daytime running lights,
00:25:07and I said Reliant Scimitar was the first car with a split-folding rear seat.
00:25:12They kind of stared at me like –
00:25:14Well, I went on the press trip when Audi showed off the future of LED lighting.
00:25:18I was like this is – and they gave us one.
00:25:20We went home with a little battery and an LED connected.
00:25:22I was like this is wild.
00:25:23Then two years later, the car is on the road.
00:25:24I was like this is quite cool.
00:25:26Consumers are smart and car companies are smart.
00:25:28They're always looking for an angle.
00:25:29Yeah.
00:25:31Is there a market that you can tell where the consumers would be hungry for this tech?
00:25:36I'm leading like – when we talk to Chinese manufacturers, they'll say like –
00:25:41yeah, people bring their cars back.
00:25:43They're like the new chip is out.
00:25:44Give me the new chip whereas like Americans are like more horsepower.
00:25:46I want more power.
00:25:48Is there any like – do consumers have any knowledge of this?
00:25:51Are they hungry for it?
00:25:53When we talked about autonomy, I think that's going to be where the tipping point is for the material,
00:25:59the connectivity material, the switch.
00:26:01Then a lot of EVs are going to be more autonomous.
00:26:04So it's probably going to be in that area.
00:26:06Then there's other areas.
00:26:08Think about like Class 8 trucks.
00:26:11There's really long trucks.
00:26:13They've got cables.
00:26:14They have cameras.
00:26:15They're going to go all the way to the back of the trailer.
00:26:17They're trying to go reduce the number of ECUs as well.
00:26:20So you can get a home run, all those things back to the cab.
00:26:23I think that will be an area as well.
00:26:25OK.
00:26:26So Corning, looking ahead to the future of software-defined vehicles,
00:26:31autonomous with fiber optic cables in the cars.
00:26:35But as we talked about, there are some other more mainstream current applications
00:26:41from some big manufacturers that you can talk about around your glass products,
00:26:46specifically Gorilla Glass, which is in the iPhone,
00:26:51which is also in a few cars' windshields or windows, windshields.
00:26:57Jeep, Porsche, and there was one other one.
00:26:59What was the other one we can talk about?
00:27:02Jeep.
00:27:03Jeep.
00:27:04Porsche.
00:27:05Did some work with Ford.
00:27:06Ford.
00:27:07Oh, yeah, the Ford GT.
00:27:08Yes.
00:27:09OK.
00:27:10So you supply a number of OEMs you can't talk about,
00:27:12but what's your favorite of the automotive applications that we can talk about?
00:27:17Because I want to talk about where we are with Gorilla Glass
00:27:20and then this other product you have coming, the Fusion 5.
00:27:24Fusion 5.
00:27:25Yeah.
00:27:26Well, Corning is a company that loves to solve problems.
00:27:29That's why I joined Corning more than 25 years ago.
00:27:32And windshields breaking, that's certainly a problem.
00:27:36For consumers, we all hate that.
00:27:38Depending on the type of car that you have, some are more prone to it,
00:27:41depending on that angle of the windshield.
00:27:44Like a Wrangler.
00:27:45Like a Wrangler Jeep, yeah.
00:27:47So when you get that windshield sticking up nice and proud like that,
00:27:52it's just a big rock catcher.
00:27:54And so a lot of things are hitting it.
00:27:56So how can we solve that problem?
00:27:58So we've worked with – actually, we worked with Ford.
00:28:02Ford, we first worked with them in the 60s,
00:28:05and actually the Gorilla Glass got its origin from that collaboration with Ford.
00:28:11OK.
00:28:12On the GT back in the 60s.
00:28:14Not only some glasses and some manufacturing processes,
00:28:17but the chemical strengthening process where you actually started the glass.
00:28:21On the original Ford GT.
00:28:22The original Ford GT.
00:28:24We actually were air-shipping windshields out to Le Mans to help out the GT
00:28:30and the origin story of that.
00:28:32No kidding.
00:28:33Yeah.
00:28:34And obviously we got it back on the more recent GT.
00:28:37So we're really proud of that.
00:28:39But basically how do we go solve – how do we use this material, Gorilla Glass,
00:28:45to be able to go make the windshields lighter, have better optics,
00:28:48and ultimately more reliable and durable?
00:28:51So that's what we've been doing for many manufacturers, a couple that you mentioned.
00:28:56Basically what we do is we originally thought,
00:28:59let's put the Gorilla Glass on the front of the car because it's super strong.
00:29:03But we actually found out actually it can improve the reliability if you put it on the back.
00:29:07So the Gorilla Glass is actually a windshield.
00:29:09It's got two pieces of glass, a laminate.
00:29:11It's on the inner laminate.
00:29:13And the reason for that is when you have a strike event,
00:29:17the windshield is basically starting to flex.
00:29:20And so you want the strongest piece of glass on the inside.
00:29:23So that's where we place that glass.
00:29:25And then you put a really thin piece of glass.
00:29:28So that makes the outer really thick.
00:29:30And that's important because most of the rock strikes come from sharp impacts,
00:29:36little stones that have got little angles on them.
00:29:38And so you want more material to have to puncture through before you actually break it.
00:29:42Okay.
00:29:43So how many layers are in your standard windshield?
00:29:47Is it two?
00:29:48Two.
00:29:49Two pieces of glass.
00:29:50Two pieces of glass.
00:29:51And some PVBs in the middle.
00:29:52Okay.
00:29:53So PVE meaning plastic?
00:29:54Plastic.
00:29:55Polypropylene?
00:29:56Yes.
00:29:57Yeah.
00:29:58So is there like one on the outside, one on the outside of the outer glass?
00:30:02And then is there anything between the regular glass and Gorilla Glass?
00:30:06And then something on the inside?
00:30:08Yeah.
00:30:09So a typical windshield will…
00:30:11Yeah.
00:30:12What's the construction of a typical windshield?
00:30:13A typical windshield is like a piece of soda lime, two pieces of soda lime,
00:30:15both the same thickness.
00:30:16Glass.
00:30:17Of glass, right?
00:30:18And so about two millimeters thick typically.
00:30:21Okay.
00:30:22Two, one.
00:30:23And then you've got a piece of plastic in the middle.
00:30:25And then another similar thickness piece of soda lime glass on the outer.
00:30:30And that's safety glass that's been out since the 50s and 60s and it just ensures
00:30:34that stuff doesn't get into the cabin and we don't get out of the cabin.
00:30:37All right.
00:30:38Well, I mean if you go back and read Nader's book about what cars were like before safety
00:30:42glass and its jagged neck wound punctures were real common.
00:30:47Yes.
00:30:48So now what we do is we take those two pieces of glass which were in a symmetric construction
00:30:55and we make it asymmetric.
00:30:57So therefore the outer is much thicker and the inner is much thinner.
00:31:01So we put our technical glass on the inner ply.
00:31:04And as a result of this, you can improve the reliability of the window.
00:31:08You could also spend that reliability like Ford did by making the whole stack thinner
00:31:14and therefore it's lighter.
00:31:15So they did that to make the windshields about 30% lighter.
00:31:18And then Porsche.
00:31:19And around that.
00:31:20And Porsche does the same thing.
00:31:22The first time I saw it, it was a GT3 RS and they just wanted it thinner for more sound
00:31:27in and then just lighter.
00:31:29Yeah, that exhaust coming in.
00:31:31Yeah.
00:31:32And it was only the rear glass.
00:31:33My understanding was the front was regular Porsche glass and the rear was Gorilla glass
00:31:37just to – that's a place you could light and it has no effect.
00:31:40Right.
00:31:41The downside is it's louder but everybody wants it louder.
00:31:43Yeah, they wanted it louder.
00:31:44They want to make sure they kind of – what's that sweet stop between safety?
00:31:47Right.
00:31:48So I've got the right safety glass on the vehicle but I make it as thin as possible
00:31:51so that now I can spend that somewhere else and typically spend it with performance.
00:31:55Right.
00:31:56Okay.
00:31:57So wow.
00:31:58So Gorilla glass or the predecessor to the trade name, right?
00:32:02Because it wasn't called Gorilla glass back then.
00:32:04Yeah, it was like Chemcor glass.
00:32:06We're not a marketing company.
00:32:08But 1960s, Chemcor was really sexy.
00:32:11Chemcor was super cool.
00:32:12Very sexy.
00:32:13Yeah, Chemcor.
00:32:14On the original 4GT windshield and then on the latest generation and then certain models
00:32:21of Porsche 911s or are you not across the board?
00:32:25Does any manufacturer go like, we're across the board, Gorilla glass.
00:32:28No one is across the board.
00:32:30But we have obviously a lot of other customers that we're dealing with that we sell to.
00:32:34We don't kiss and tell.
00:32:36But there are others that are using the material.
00:32:38Okay.
00:32:39And then for all iPhone users here, is that construction, is it the same?
00:32:43Is iPhone like – or is it just all Gorilla glass?
00:32:46Like how does a –
00:32:47Yeah.
00:32:48So it's definitely a different construction.
00:32:50Okay.
00:32:51So we're not putting a laminate on the front of the phones.
00:32:54You've got a piece of –
00:32:56They're not struck by rocks at 91.
00:32:58No, we're dropping them on the asphalt.
00:33:00Different use case.
00:33:01Yeah, exactly.
00:33:02So we sell for a different use case there.
00:33:04The material is slightly different.
00:33:06But we still – it is still a chemically strengthened material.
00:33:10Can you tell the story of how you, Corning, got in touch with Apple for the glass for the iPhone?
00:33:16Because it's – I've heard it a little bit.
00:33:19But I heard it's a pretty cool story.
00:33:21Yeah, it's a good story.
00:33:22So they actually got in touch with us.
00:33:24So Steve Jobs had this great idea.
00:33:28He's going to make the whole front of the phone a display.
00:33:31So he needed some transparent media to cover it.
00:33:34So he first used plastic.
00:33:35It was going to be plastic, right?
00:33:36It was going to be plastic.
00:33:37So he's got it.
00:33:38And he wears jeans all the time.
00:33:39He's in and out of his pocket probably touching his Porsche keys because he doesn't enjoy Porsches.
00:33:43And scratching all up.
00:33:45He's like, this is going to be a huge problem.
00:33:47And so they reached out to us and actually just called Corning, got to the main switch.
00:33:53And the person that answered didn't know who he was and they're like trying to get to our CEO.
00:33:58So wait.
00:33:59Steve Jobs called Corning?
00:34:00Yeah.
00:34:01He's like, hey, we've got Steve Jobs.
00:34:02And they're like, I can't talk to our CEO.
00:34:04You need an appointment.
00:34:05Eventually we got the two of them together.
00:34:07That's great.
00:34:08And Steve's like, hey.
00:34:09He described his problem.
00:34:11And our chairman, he's still – Wendell Weeks, he's our chairman and CEO.
00:34:16He was back then.
00:34:17He still is today.
00:34:18He's like, I think we've got something on the shelf that probably can help you.
00:34:21And that's where we took this process to make the glass, the chemical strengthening process to be able to strengthen the glass and then to rebuild the glass.
00:34:29And then we put it all together, got that back to Steve.
00:34:32He's like, okay, I want that.
00:34:34And I need it in like four months.
00:34:36Yeah, that's the part.
00:34:37I heard it was like overnight.
00:34:38Basically.
00:34:39In the industry.
00:34:40We're making glass over four months is pretty fast.
00:34:42Yeah.
00:34:43It will be a small order after this thing takes off.
00:34:47And that seems to be a big success for you guys.
00:34:50It has been.
00:34:51And it's going to create a big consumer electronic business for us.
00:34:54So we went on to other devices.
00:34:56And I think what they've done is really created this unique connection between us consumers and our devices.
00:35:06And now that's what's found its way into the vehicle and into the car.
00:35:09And so we're just trying to help replicate that, having done that more than a decade ago.
00:35:13We're trying to help car companies do the same thing in the vehicle.
00:35:16Did you have any inkling that the iPhone – and, again, this is a little off topic, but that it would be the success that it was?
00:35:24Yeah.
00:35:25Hindsight, I was like, oh, yeah, I would have saw that.
00:35:27I wanted that.
00:35:28But I think, remember, Nokia was huge back then.
00:35:30Right.
00:35:31Motorola.
00:35:32Blackberry.
00:35:33Star Tech, Blackberry.
00:35:34Yeah, great idea.
00:35:35I'll never forget.
00:35:36Remember the first – a friend of mine, Scott, had brought an iPhone to a party, iPhone 1.
00:35:40And, again, I was like, why would you want that?
00:35:43And then he pulled up a YouTube video.
00:35:45And I remember I was just like, it's all over.
00:35:47I'm like, this is it.
00:35:48This is it.
00:35:49Get an iPhone now.
00:35:50So we believed in them.
00:35:53And they obviously believed in us, which was great.
00:35:56And it's been a long history together.
00:35:57So Gorilla Glass is the current hotness.
00:36:00And you guys have this new product out there called Fusion 5, which I think is interesting
00:36:05because, strictly from a design – one of the solutions you're trying to provide from
00:36:09a vehicle design standpoint, which is like all these cars are getting really slippery
00:36:14with the crazy raked windshield.
00:36:16Because the aero counts.
00:36:18Everyone's remarking the Prius these days.
00:36:22It's pretty hot.
00:36:23It actually looks like somebody sat on the front of it.
00:36:25The rake of the windshield is so –
00:36:27It's a Lamborghini rake.
00:36:28Yeah, it's crazy.
00:36:29And then what you don't understand – this is something we figured out when we were doing
00:36:32World's Greatest Drag Race many years ago.
00:36:36When you're driving cars really fast in dirty runways and you get rock chips and you try
00:36:43to protect against it – and we were trying to protect these very – these Lamborghinis.
00:36:47We were putting – we were stupid.
00:36:49We were putting plastic like the stuff you put on the front of the car on the windshield
00:36:55because it was the only thing available.
00:36:56And it worked.
00:36:57And it worked.
00:36:58But the –
00:36:59I couldn't see.
00:37:00The visibility went down like crazy.
00:37:03And it's amplified by the rake of the windshield because now you're looking through a much
00:37:07steeper angle and it's way easier.
00:37:09We were only hitting like 150, 160.
00:37:11I remember –
00:37:12No problem really.
00:37:13At the end of the drag race, people were like, OK, how do I know when to lift?
00:37:15Like when you see the blue flash of the port-a-potty, lift because otherwise you can't tell where
00:37:20it is.
00:37:21But so let's – but let me – this is a long intro to Fusion 5.
00:37:25So you talked about Soda Lime which is either the standard glass that's in everybody's
00:37:29house.
00:37:30That's window glass.
00:37:31Car window glass, right?
00:37:32And then Gorilla Glass is an upgraded version that adds aluminum oxide.
00:37:38That's aluminum silica glass.
00:37:40Aluminum silica glass.
00:37:41OK.
00:37:42And we'll come back to that actually because that's – I think there's a Pyrex angle.
00:37:44Oh, which is Fusion 5.
00:37:45Fusion 5 is borosilicate glass, which I know because I'm a cooking nerd, which is fundamentally
00:37:50sort of like Pyrex.
00:37:51Yes.
00:37:52Right?
00:37:53Yeah.
00:37:55Fusion 5 is a cool name.
00:37:56So you said you're not a branding company.
00:37:58It's a pretty cool name.
00:38:00This is – what problems is Fusion 5 trying to solve that maybe Gorilla Glass couldn't
00:38:05let's say?
00:38:06Yeah.
00:38:07So we're a glass company.
00:38:08Yep.
00:38:09So we want to sell glass.
00:38:10And we told you about how the Gorilla Glass was on the inside and they still were using
00:38:15the regular Soda Lime on the outside.
00:38:17So we say we want to go after that.
00:38:19OK.
00:38:20So how do we go after that?
00:38:21Because we don't make Soda Lime.
00:38:22We don't make Soda Lime.
00:38:23We only make tactical glasses in the company.
00:38:25So we continue to go engage the car companies, kind of understand what the problems are.
00:38:30And so they wanted weight savings.
00:38:32And so a borosilicate glass by definition is a less denser glass.
00:38:38So it's about 12 percent lighter for the same volume as Soda Lime.
00:38:42So that kind of got us into the right kind of glass family.
00:38:45OK.
00:38:46So that was the first thing we had to be able to solve.
00:38:48Second, borosilicates are much less prone to scratch.
00:38:53Yep.
00:38:54And that's important because you kind of drive your cars around.
00:38:57You start to kind of get pitted and now we're kind of putting cameras and things like that
00:39:01behind our windshields.
00:39:02Oh, yeah.
00:39:03Yeah.
00:39:04And so the camera has got to work obviously on day one, but it's got to also work year
00:39:07two, year three, 100,000 miles.
00:39:09So how do we ensure the material ages well?
00:39:12All right.
00:39:13So borosilicate is going to age better when we're on the outside.
00:39:16So that's the area that's going to be engaging with the outside environment.
00:39:21So we knew we would have to do that.
00:39:24And because it scratches less, it's going to go damaged in a different way.
00:39:30So a normal glass, when a rock hits it, it's going to fracture and then a crack runs.
00:39:37And actually when your windshield breaks, typically it got hit, but it didn't break right away.
00:39:43Yep.
00:39:44So you need some type of other stress event, like a flexure event or you go into a car
00:39:49wash and cold water hits it where you wake up in the morning and there's a crack.
00:39:54Yes.
00:39:55It's growing.
00:39:56Super frustrating.
00:39:57Yeah.
00:39:58All right.
00:39:59So we wanted a material that crack propagation is very different.
00:40:02And a borosilicate kind of fails in a very different way.
00:40:05How does it fail?
00:40:07Instead of kind of running, it kind of goes in a circle.
00:40:09Okay.
00:40:10More like spider webby looking.
00:40:12It kind of encapsulates the flaw where the damage has been introduced.
00:40:17That's where it typically will go and kind of go through the glass, but it won't run
00:40:22in the same way that a sodaline glass would.
00:40:24So it just fails a little differently.
00:40:26Okay.
00:40:27And then we make glass.
00:40:29There's kind of two different ways to make glass.
00:40:31One is a process called float.
00:40:33Pilkington invented it many, many years ago.
00:40:36Really good and expensive way to be able to make glass.
00:40:39We use a different process.
00:40:41We use a process called fusion, which comes under the name of the glass.
00:40:44Okay.
00:40:45And this is basically instead of horizontally making glass like float, we make it vertical.
00:40:50Right?
00:40:51And so as a result of that, we have really, really good optics in the glass.
00:40:55So really low distortion.
00:40:56The surface is really good.
00:40:57This is why we sell glass for your laptop screen there, for the TV right there.
00:41:05It's a really, really good precise surface.
00:41:08So that helps with the optics.
00:41:09And you're putting – you're looking through these windows now with different camera systems.
00:41:15And then that becomes harder as the rake angles get smaller or steeper and steeper and steeper
00:41:20because you actually have to look through more glass.
00:41:22Right.
00:41:23And so we help to help solve an optics problem there.
00:41:25So we wanted a lighter material and had better optics.
00:41:29And there's a thermal – isn't there a thermal advantage too?
00:41:32Isn't it not less – is it less prone to thermal shock?
00:41:35Is that what I read?
00:41:37Yeah.
00:41:38For the damage introductions that happen.
00:41:40Right.
00:41:41Okay.
00:41:42And so it actually is a lot – so some windshields will fail on the edges.
00:41:46They'll also fail on the surface.
00:41:48And so that actually helps with edge stress.
00:41:50Again, Frank Marcus wrote another story about this one too from – I think it was CES last year.
00:41:56And the example he used was – and by the way, it's not like – we don't live in a cold climate.
00:42:02But if your windshield is like covered in ice in the morning,
00:42:05you probably shouldn't throw a boiling pan of hot water on it.
00:42:07Probably not.
00:42:08Probably not, right?
00:42:09Probably not.
00:42:10Because that will – it could shatter the thermal shock, right, from the hot water hitting the cold windshield.
00:42:15If it had a big flaw on it, yeah, you probably would activate that flaw.
00:42:18Okay.
00:42:19It won't shatter though.
00:42:21It won't shatter.
00:42:22So you guys are trying to then replace the soda-lime glass in the front.
00:42:26And so it will be a sandwich basically of this Fusion V glass with the Gorilla Glass.
00:42:31Yeah.
00:42:32It's the ultimate construction.
00:42:35You can make it super light, more reliable.
00:42:38And is Fusion V – has it hit the market yet?
00:42:40Is there an OEM that's supplying it yet?
00:42:42Yep.
00:42:43It's in mass production today.
00:42:44Oh, okay.
00:42:45We launched it about a year and a half ago.
00:42:47We kind of went to market at CES last year.
00:42:49So Corning has been around for a long time.
00:42:51Borosilicate glass has been around a long time.
00:42:54Is it 100 years old?
00:42:55Borosilicate is not 100 years old, is it?
00:42:57Borosilicates are more than 100 years old.
00:42:59So Pyrex, we invented that material.
00:43:01I think it's like 105 or 6 years ago.
00:43:03So it's over 100 years old.
00:43:04So the patents run out on that, right?
00:43:07Because there are other people who make Borosilicate glass of all different kinds.
00:43:11So the unique IP here is the production method or is it like a specific formula that you're using?
00:43:18Yeah.
00:43:19So Borosilicate would be a family.
00:43:20And then you'd have a unique composition.
00:43:22So that's our Fusion V glass.
00:43:24So you would patent the material.
00:43:26You would patent the way to make it.
00:43:30You would patent maybe some downstream processes as well.
00:43:32You kind of put all those things together.
00:43:33And then companies are always renewing.
00:43:35We're always renewing our IP, putting new IP on them.
00:43:38And then you kind of get an extension of the IP and you kind of go beyond that first useful patent life.
00:43:44Okay.
00:43:46Again, so for the car enthusiasts and the tech enthusiasts who also happen to be cooking nerds.
00:43:53So Corning invented Pyrex like over, as you said, like over 100 years ago, right?
00:43:58Yeah, over 100 years ago.
00:43:59For cookware.
00:44:00For cookware.
00:44:01And the whole family was, it was Pyrex.
00:44:04There was this really cool, I remember in the 80s, they were selling on infomercials.
00:44:08It was the Vision.
00:44:09Visions.
00:44:10Cookware.
00:44:11That was a Borosilicate.
00:44:12Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:13It was the glass.
00:44:14You could like watch your spaghetti boil on the pot.
00:44:15Yeah, yeah.
00:44:16It was the coolest thing.
00:44:17I do remember that.
00:44:18Yes.
00:44:19It's hilarious.
00:44:20It was like kind of a smoked gray kind of color.
00:44:22When I would watch Price is Right with my grandmother.
00:44:24There was a lot of commercials for that, yeah.
00:44:27But Corning doesn't make – you guys sold that business line.
00:44:30It's now Corningware something, somebody else.
00:44:32Yeah.
00:44:33We sold it in, I think it was 98 before I joined Corning.
00:44:36And then – because again, I'm a cooking nerd.
00:44:38There's a big scandal about what the new Pyrex is versus what the old Pyrex is, right?
00:44:43Because the Pyrex, when Corning was making it, was Borosilicate, super scratch resistant.
00:44:51It's both the white like casserole pots but also like the clear glass containers, right?
00:44:57Yeah.
00:44:58But the stuff you can buy at Target, I think the distinction is capital P, Pyrex, good.
00:45:03Lowercase p, Pyrex is the new stuff which is not as – the thing that people are finding
00:45:08out, not as thermally resistant.
00:45:11Like they can shatter I guess if you put a hot one into the cold water in the sink.
00:45:16But also that they chip in a different way.
00:45:19Does any of this make sense to you?
00:45:21Yeah, yeah.
00:45:22I love this.
00:45:23So you're right.
00:45:24Corning was – and I think most of the listeners probably – that's how they think about
00:45:28Corning.
00:45:29They probably think about stuff that was –
00:45:30That's what I thought.
00:45:31Kitchen cabinets with their mom and grandma, right?
00:45:32Yeah, yeah.
00:45:33And so there's actually a lot of different glass compositions, a lot of different manufacturing
00:45:37processes to make the Coralware, the visions.
00:45:40But you're right.
00:45:42For most of the clear glass, that was Borosilicate glass.
00:45:46And so when you dropped your measuring cup or anything like that, it wouldn't break.
00:45:49Or if you went from the hot oven and then – or the cold freezer and you kind of put
00:45:54in the hot oven or vice versa, the glass wouldn't break.
00:45:57Right.
00:45:58It was actually – when we discovered that for some of the Corningware, it was actually
00:46:03an experiment.
00:46:04In Corning, we have these Friday afternoon experiments that all the scientists can do.
00:46:09They get kind of for afternoons.
00:46:10Do whatever you want to do, right?
00:46:12And so this one scientist, he like kind of was trying to go target a glass composition
00:46:18to do something else.
00:46:20It wasn't obviously for Corningware.
00:46:22Right.
00:46:23He kind of took it out of the oven and he dropped it and didn't break.
00:46:26He's like, well, that's interesting.
00:46:29And then that ended up going into the consumer space.
00:46:33Yeah.
00:46:34OK.
00:46:35For kitchenware.
00:46:36So –
00:46:37And there was a military application, right?
00:46:38Was this like nose cones of missiles or something?
00:46:40Yeah, that's a – we don't always talk about that.
00:46:42But yeah, that's a glass ceramic.
00:46:45OK.
00:46:46And that's a material that you want it to fail and it kind of turned into dust and then
00:46:51–
00:46:52OK.
00:46:53I'm not a cooking nerd but I'm kind of a watch nerd and when I think of like scratch-resistant
00:46:58see-through, it's sapphire, crystal.
00:47:00Yeah.
00:47:01Why would – my understanding is this is closer to diamond than it is to glass, like
00:47:07sapphire.
00:47:10What is sapphire and why don't you just use that since it seems like totally scratch-resistant?
00:47:14Yeah.
00:47:15Well, so sapphire is a – it's a ceramic – excuse me.
00:47:18It's a crystalline structure.
00:47:20So when you have a really thick piece of it, it's pretty strong.
00:47:23But if you cleave it, it's really easy to break it just like a diamond if you cleave
00:47:28a diamond, right?
00:47:29OK.
00:47:30And so if you want to use that in consumer electronics, folks have looked at using sapphire.
00:47:35They want really, really thin pieces of sapphire.
00:47:38And so as a crystalline structure, it actually will fail at a higher rate than the Gorilla
00:47:42Glass does.
00:47:43Oh, interesting.
00:47:44So as a result of that, we've used – we've always used the Gorilla Glass.
00:47:47OK.
00:47:48I just didn't know because it – again, like diamond is like whatever, 2000 on the
00:47:53hardness scale and below that is sapphire because it's carbon and blah, blah, blah.
00:47:56Yeah.
00:47:57Diamond will scratch glass.
00:47:58Yeah.
00:47:59But it's also got to be more expensive to create – I mean especially if you're
00:48:02talking about something the size of a windshield.
00:48:04I mean little glass watch faces, I'm sure.
00:48:06Yeah.
00:48:07So what we actually do is we actually take glasses and we put different optical coatings
00:48:10on them that can be nearly as damage-resistant and hard as diamond and sapphire.
00:48:15Yeah.
00:48:16And so you will see that on some of the new tech devices that are on many of your wrists.
00:48:20Yeah.
00:48:21There's a name for it.
00:48:22But yeah, I saw some watch where it was like it's glass but it's just as good and
00:48:26it's stronger or something.
00:48:28Right.
00:48:29It's just scratch-resistant.
00:48:30OK.
00:48:31Interesting.
00:48:32Anything else you're working on you want to tell us about?
00:48:33Well, the big one was the optical fiber.
00:48:35That's the new one that I think is going to be really big.
00:48:37Yeah.
00:48:38Inside the vehicle where our business has been growing is because there's just more
00:48:42displays in the vehicles and those displays are much larger.
00:48:46And there are a lot of safety tests that are inside the vehicle.
00:48:50You have to pass something called a HIT test, a head form impact test.
00:48:53And so you drop your phone.
00:48:56That's a pretty small event for the glass versus passing the safety test inside the
00:49:00vehicle where you're going to –
00:49:02In other words, a knee or a skull hits the glass.
00:49:04Go ahead.
00:49:05They take this head form and smash it into the glass and the glass can't break for
00:49:08it to be used in the vehicle.
00:49:10So we kind of solved that.
00:49:11We have a version of Gorilla Glass we called AutoGrade Gorilla Glass to help solve that
00:49:16problem.
00:49:17But I think now the big problem is there's just a lot more glass around in the canopy
00:49:22of the vehicle.
00:49:23Yes.
00:49:24So you get a lot of light coming in, especially when the sun is behind you.
00:49:28And so how do you go combine surface treatments on the glass so you can manage all this ambient
00:49:35light?
00:49:36So that's an area where we've been spending a lot of time with car companies.
00:49:40And then after that, fingerprints.
00:49:42I was going to say.
00:49:43I was going to make a joke.
00:49:44Have you saw fingerprints?
00:49:45But –
00:49:46That's a billion-dollar business right there.
00:49:47That's a billion-dollar business.
00:49:48We're working hard on that one.
00:49:49Interesting.
00:49:50We're working hard on that one.
00:49:51No, this is –
00:49:52I mean just because fingerprints are hysterical because a lot of times you don't really see
00:49:55them until –
00:49:56I spent a lot of time photographing the inside of cars and everyone is like, oh, you could
00:50:00have cleaned it.
00:50:01It's like you couldn't see it until I took the picture.
00:50:03Yeah.
00:50:04Well, the fascinating thing for me is – because I've been in this business long enough to
00:50:08have witnessed the transition from analog controls to now all these screens.
00:50:13And I remember the Germans were so resistant to – that's why they started with iDrive
00:50:18and there's a command dial because they were like, our cars are on the lawn at Pebble
00:50:23Beach and we expect them to be there for the next 200 years.
00:50:27You know how gross it's going to be when the screen that you have is covered in 200 years
00:50:32of fingerprint and grease and then whatever grooves you're wearing into these screens.
00:50:39So do you – I mean I was fascinated when you were talking about the glass.
00:50:45You're looking at the long-term reliability and the failure.
00:50:50Do you look at that in the same way for the inside of the vehicle?
00:50:54Like are you guys trying to do testing for what it looks like after a Tesla Model 3 from
00:51:002017 has been swiped for 50 years or 75 years, what that might look like?
00:51:06There's actually a bunch of tests for that swiping motion that we do have to do before
00:51:10we go to mass production.
00:51:13The material and the surface we put on them are pretty durable.
00:51:17They're going to last beyond the life of the vehicle.
00:51:19So I don't think that's going to be a big problem.
00:51:22But you did bring up something that I think is interesting.
00:51:25So there's a lot more displays in vehicles.
00:51:28That was kind of the thing a decade plus ago and they kind of got bigger and bigger and
00:51:33bigger and now like every car has got a screen in it.
00:51:35Well, and then there's like the electric Escalade, which is just glass overload.
00:51:40I'm sure Corning loves that vehicle.
00:51:45But I mean I think there's seven screens.
00:51:48There's five screens for the front passengers and each – maybe nine.
00:51:53Everyone should get their own screen.
00:51:56But now we're seeing screens.
00:51:58It's kind of getting boring that I got all these screens.
00:52:01So like how do I get back that kind of that connectivity and that driving experience?
00:52:07So I think it's – everything is kind of going full circle, like kind of the more
00:52:10economical cars, they'll get the big screens and not a lot of touch interfaces inside the
00:52:16vehicles like switches and knobs and things like that.
00:52:19I think now more of those expensive vehicles, they're going back to that.
00:52:24I still have to have the tech, but how do I go back to that?
00:52:26So we have conversations with them and go, oh, what's the material on that switch going to be?
00:52:31I think we're going to see a lot more glass inside the vehicle because when we talk –
00:52:36we talk a lot to designers as well.
00:52:39Go back to consumer.
00:52:41We have this glass thing in your hand, this phone, and it's got glass in the front.
00:52:46It's got glass on the back.
00:52:47There is a connection you have with that device.
00:52:50People just feel good about glass.
00:52:52It's like a great material set versus other materials that are out there.
00:52:56So designers want to replicate that experience that you get with your phone inside the vehicle.
00:53:00Glass is like cooled with a touch.
00:53:03It's an inert material.
00:53:05It can be cleaned.
00:53:06It's not going to go – it ages really well.
00:53:08So how do I get that into the vehicle?
00:53:11So we're working with designers on how do they make more complex, more inviting interiors in the vehicles.
00:53:19I think there's a lot of great opportunity there.
00:53:22So more glass touch points, less – maybe in high-end vehicles, less screen square footage.
00:53:28I think they'll do both.
00:53:29Okay.
00:53:30What he's saying is – Elon famously said the best part is no part.
00:53:35So that's why he's made all his screens, all the screen to be dominant and getting rid of switches and knobs.
00:53:40But as we saw with Scout, Scout is like coming back and putting knobs and key switches.
00:53:45That's going to be the future flex.
00:53:47That's going to be what the luxury manufacturers are like.
00:53:49We didn't do this.
00:53:50As you said, all the economy cars are just going to be screen only because that's how they take all the cost out.
00:53:55Thurston Veblen's theory of the leisure class.
00:53:57Yes.
00:53:58Oh, you have screens?
00:53:59Well, we have screens and buttons now.
00:54:00We're rich.
00:54:01Exactly.
00:54:02We spent the money on the tooling and then to your point, we're going to put this beautiful glass knob on top of it.
00:54:08That's going to probably light up or do something cool and change.
00:54:11But that's great.
00:54:12I love that future.
00:54:13Talk to me about head-up displays and then – but do you actually believe that augmented reality, virtual reality –
00:54:24like are we going to – in the self-driving or increasingly autonomous age,
00:54:29we're all going to be putting our heads back and watching stuff being broadcast on our windshield.
00:54:35Like will we get to the point where the biggest screen in your car is actually the windshield and stuff is projected on it?
00:54:42Because I don't know.
00:54:44That's a great question.
00:54:46It's a great question.
00:54:47So today the displays are winning that race for connectivity.
00:54:52How do I like connect the car to the driver and the passenger?
00:54:55Certainly the displays are winning that.
00:54:57But head-up displays, HUDs could be a way.
00:55:00Maybe I'm going to integrate a transparent display into the windshield itself.
00:55:04Maybe I'm going to do something holographic and it kind of pops up.
00:55:07I think the whole front of the vehicle is a canvas for these designers to think about, well, how do I go convey connectivity to customers?
00:55:15So we actually have plays in all of those areas.
00:55:17We monitor all of them because we want to be able to pivot with the OEMs where they want to go.
00:55:22So we make mirrors that are going to make the head-up displays work.
00:55:26There are certain things the windshield has got to have to be able to go ensure that the head-up displays work.
00:55:30And then you brought up AR, augmented reality HUD.
00:55:34So the HUD image is sitting on the windshield, but it doesn't look like it's sitting on the windshield.
00:55:39It looks like it's floating in front of the car.
00:55:41And if I can get it to float way in front of the car, maybe as I'm driving the vehicle, if I want to do maps and things like that, like, hey, I'm going to get off at this exit.
00:55:52You see now the arrow pointing that way versus you having to kind of look down at the center screen.
00:55:58So it's probably maybe a safer way when you're in control of driving the vehicle.
00:56:03Land Rover showed something years ago, but it was, you know, you're driving through Paris.
00:56:08And, you know, it sees the Arc de Triomphe.
00:56:11And it, like, you know, takes that and it identifies it in front of you and says, you know, lights up what it is.
00:56:16And then if you want to, you could, like, you know, gesture control, swipe down.
00:56:20And then it throws the Wikipedia page for Arc de Triomphe onto the screen or reads it to you or whatever.
00:56:25Oh, yeah. And then you crash.
00:56:27Well, no, it's driving itself.
00:56:29But, you know, you get, like, a self-guided tour of wherever you are.
00:56:32Yeah, I think there's something you probably saw at CES, people putting displays in the side windows of cars.
00:56:38So, like, as you're looking out the window, you can see all that information.
00:56:43BMW did a whole thing at CES showing off their latest.
00:56:47It's like a super HUD. It goes, like, across the screen.
00:56:50P-HUD, I think they call it.
00:56:51Yeah, it shows off everything.
00:56:52P? What's the P for?
00:56:54I can't remember, like, performed or progressive, I think.
00:56:57But it goes all the way across from left to right of the windshield.
00:57:01A-pillar to A-pillar.
00:57:02But I guess the question I'm asking is there's been a lot of promises.
00:57:05I'm still waiting for AR to be a thing.
00:57:07Like, I know a lot of the kids use it and the headsets are getting smaller.
00:57:11I'm talking about personal electronics.
00:57:12Yeah.
00:57:13But from HUD and AR in the car, the physical limitations seem to be it just doesn't look very good.
00:57:19Like, even though we've been – we're now 25-plus years with the HUD.
00:57:23Some are better than others.
00:57:25But they're just – it's just not crisp enough.
00:57:28And it's – I think fundamentally it's just not – it's never going to be dark enough.
00:57:31Foiled by sunglasses.
00:57:33Well, you're driving in daylight and glass is coming through this thing.
00:57:37And you're trying to project something bright or brighter – as bright or brighter than the image.
00:57:43And it just looks – it just kind of – it always looks kind of faint and not sharp.
00:57:47What's in your lab?
00:57:48What haven't we seen?
00:57:50Well, we're making them bigger.
00:57:52A lot more color and kind of project them further down.
00:57:54That's the augmented reality piece of them.
00:57:56So that's stuff we are working on.
00:57:58But I think it's a really tough problem for the car companies.
00:58:01They don't – they can't just have only a HUD or only a center stack inside the vehicle.
00:58:06They've got to have all these systems in there with a lot of redundancy.
00:58:09And some consumers like HUDs.
00:58:12Others, they turn them right off.
00:58:14They're like, well, how do I solve for all of the use cases that are out there?
00:58:18So it's tough as they're playing around with all the different technologies.
00:58:23And right now, contemporary Mercedes and Audis use augmented reality on the – like the center screen.
00:58:29Like sort of the navigation screen.
00:58:31And when I pay attention to it, it actually works really well.
00:58:34I just forget to pay attention to it because I'm looking through the windshield, not staring.
00:58:38But it's good.
00:58:39It's like make sure you're in this lane.
00:58:41It will actually show you a map on the image.
00:58:45But it would be better if it could be projected.
00:58:47And actually they're starting to do that too.
00:58:49When they head up, they'll tell you the lane.
00:58:51Here's my theory.
00:58:52Because what's great about the automotive industry is that it's like a graveyard of really awesome but ultimately unsuccessful technology.
00:59:01Like all these parking systems that all the manufacturers put in the cars, nobody uses them.
00:59:05Like the push button.
00:59:07I'm going to wait 30 seconds.
00:59:08I can park this thing faster myself.
00:59:10This is another one.
00:59:12I just slipped my mind.
00:59:14But I suspect that HUDs and true augmented reality are going to come in the age when cars are fully autonomous and there's no more windshield.
00:59:23Like we're literally sitting in front of like a pod.
00:59:27And it's just going to show.
00:59:28You want to see the road ahead?
00:59:29Great.
00:59:30There's a camera view.
00:59:31Or you want to watch a movie?
00:59:32Boop.
00:59:33And then it just projects on the screen.
00:59:35And just like we're starting to lose the back windshield in a lot of these cars.
00:59:40Like the Polestar.
00:59:41Gone.
00:59:42Gone.
00:59:43Like what do you need it for?
00:59:44Maybe we can just turn the seats around when the car is driving itself and then there's your theater.
00:59:48And there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in the back seats now.
00:59:51A lot of folks get driven around in cars.
00:59:54You go out to China.
00:59:55There's a lot of folks in the back.
00:59:58Ultra high def in the 7 Series.
01:00:00And that's one where, you know, Ed was talking about on the lawn in 50 years at Pebble Beach.
01:00:06And I'm like, well, why did you put a TV in there?
01:00:08The quality.
01:00:09And I looked at it.
01:00:10No, it'll never get better than this.
01:00:11It's really good quality.
01:00:13And display makers are doing a good job of keep innovating.
01:00:16They're kind of making displays brighter and brighter and brighter so they can work in all different types of use cases.
01:00:20Yeah.
01:00:21All right.
01:00:22Well, this was awesome.
01:00:24Thank you so much for coming in and chatting with us.
01:00:27I appreciate it.
01:00:28We will, I guess, guess about the cars that are coming with the optical fiber because mom's the word on your end.
01:00:38Well, but it sounds like that's going to be, you know, some big manufacturer will green light it first.
01:00:43And they'll have a lot of brands.
01:00:45When we're ready to share, we'll definitely share with you and get back here.
01:00:51I learned from your colleague that we can't just look at the bottom corner of the windshield glass to see whether it's corning, except for the case of, like, the Jeep.
01:00:59The Jeep?
01:01:00Yeah, they brand it.
01:01:01They brand it.
01:01:02Because otherwise it's the Glazer is the branding.
01:01:04Yeah, the Kia one.
01:01:05Yeah.
01:01:06So it's the supplier, you supply with your technology.
01:01:09Correct.
01:01:10But it's fascinating stuff.
01:01:12You know, if you're an iPhone.
01:01:14Actually, Gorilla Glass is also on non-iPhones.
01:01:19Apple's out of the market.
01:01:21We go after the other two-thirds as well.
01:01:24So you're probably already a corning glass owner or beneficiary of the technology.
01:01:31You might be listening to us or watching us on a device through corning glass.
01:01:35Odds are.
01:01:36Odds are.
01:01:37Yeah, and fascinating stuff.
01:01:39And I'm looking forward to, again, for me the holy grail is how do you get the weight out of these cars?
01:01:45You guys complain EVs don't sound good or they don't have the lightness of, like, my Miata.
01:01:50Well, it's going to take all of the manufacturers, all the suppliers to pull weight out.
01:01:55Actually, a big shift in batteries is going to be the biggest help, but getting all the weight out.
01:01:59But the computing power.
01:02:00You were talking about screen latency.
01:02:02If you have every controls now on a screen, it's got to be ultra quick.
01:02:05And so that's exciting for moving the data faster.
01:02:09We're trying to do our part.
01:02:11Yeah, well, I mean, that's the number of times I'm like, why is your transmission so slow?
01:02:15Oh, the cam bus.
01:02:18All right.
01:02:19Mike Kunigonis, VP, General Manager of Corning Automotive Glass Solutions.
01:02:22Thank you so much for coming in.