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00:00 Welcome back to the C Morning Show.
00:04 Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi recently reiterated Indonesia's commitment
00:09 to strengthening cooperation with Turkey.
00:13 Indonesia aims to play a key role alongside Turkey in promoting global peace and prosperity.
00:20 During her working visit, Minister Marsudi met with her Turkish counterpart, Tarkan Fidan,
00:25 to bolster ties between the two nations.
00:28 Indonesia and Turkey are committed to finalizing the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement,
00:33 or CEPA.
00:34 Both countries are currently gearing up for the fifth round of CEPA negotiation later
00:40 this year, which is expected to boost trade and investment.
00:43 The two nations also plan to continue working together to combat transnational crime.
00:49 They have signed a security cooperation deal and are aiming to conclude a memorandum of
00:54 understanding on counterterrorism and fighting transnational crime soon.
01:00 In addition to meeting with the Turkish Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi also visited Defense
01:04 Minister Yassar Guler.
01:06 They agreed to hold a two-plus-two meeting next year and to continue strengthening defense
01:11 cooperation and partnership in the defense industry.
01:21 So to dive into this bilateral relations between the two countries, joining us today is a special
01:27 guest, His Excellency Professor Dr. Talif Kucukcan, Turkish Ambassador to Indonesia.
01:32 Ambassador, welcome to the show.
01:34 Good morning.
01:35 Thank you for having me.
01:36 Thank you.
01:37 All right.
01:38 So, Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi recently reaffirmed Indonesia commitment to
01:44 strengthen cooperation with Turkey and promoting global peace.
01:48 Now, how would you describe the current state of the relation between Indonesia and Turkey?
01:54 Well, again, thank you for having me here.
01:56 Well, next year, we will celebrate the 75th anniversary of the beginning of the diplomatic
02:03 relations between Turkey and Indonesia.
02:06 That means we have really very good ties, historical ties.
02:10 Actually, historically speaking, the relations or the contact between Turkish people and
02:15 Indonesians go back to the 16th century.
02:19 In the 17th century, here in Batavia, the Ottoman Empire had a consul general, actually.
02:25 And it lasted up until 1920s.
02:28 You can see the depthness.
02:29 You can see the background and foundations of relations between Turkey and Indonesia.
02:34 Of course, since the establishment of nation states, our relations became stronger, I think
02:39 closer.
02:40 And when we look at the different aspects of the relations, we will see that in the
02:44 OIC, in UN, in MIKTA, and in G20, Turkey and Indonesia are working together.
02:52 And of course, with regard to the global challenges like climate change, peace, security, anti-terrorism,
02:58 we are on the same page.
03:00 Turkey and Indonesia are working very closely.
03:04 And I think the last meeting between Retno Marsudi and Mr. Hakan Fidan, again, reiterated
03:09 this that Turkey and Indonesia are working very close.
03:13 And on the issue of Palestinian conflict, for example, again, Turkey and Indonesia are
03:19 working very closely.
03:21 Our foreign ministers are in the contact group.
03:23 They have been visiting different leaders.
03:26 They have been meeting different actors in order to find a lasting solution in the Gaza
03:32 conflict.
03:33 Now, as mentioned earlier, Indonesia and Turkey are right now working on the fifth, what you
03:39 would call it, negotiation for CEPA.
03:41 So how do you see the economic ties between the two countries, between Indonesia and Turkey?
03:46 Well actually, given the economic size of the two countries, I would say that the trade
03:50 volume between us is not as much as we expected.
03:55 Because both countries are in G20, that means we have big economies.
04:00 And of course, both countries are developing.
04:03 There's a sustainable development, economic growth in both countries.
04:06 But when we look at the trade volume, Turkey trades mostly with Europe, and of course,
04:11 Indonesia trades with the regional countries, including ASEAN.
04:16 So we have got a trade volume of $1.3 billion, and we would like to see this to $10 billion.
04:21 This is the target by our leaders, actually.
04:24 But in order to do that, of course, we have to, I think, rethink about the barriers before
04:30 the trade and commerce.
04:32 And I think in the last meeting in Turkey, this free trade agreement was on the table,
04:38 and the technical, I think, teams are now working together in order to further the process.
04:43 I think we need to have more, of course, commercial and trade cooperation between two countries.
04:49 And that's what we need, because as I said, Indonesia is the biggest producers, manufacturer,
04:56 and also the consumer in ASEAN.
04:58 That is a big potential for Turkey.
05:00 And also, of course, for Indonesia, Turkey will be maybe a step towards Europe, because
05:05 Turkey's trade with Europe is quite large.
05:09 And also, the Turkish products are aligned with the European standards.
05:13 That means there's a lot of chance for both countries for increasing the trade volume.
05:22 And micro, small, and medium enterprises are vital to both countries' economies.
05:26 Could you please outline some key trade and investment opportunities for businesses in
05:31 Indonesia and Turkey?
05:32 Well, first of all, I think Indonesia is very rich in terms of raw materials.
05:38 That's for sure.
05:39 And also, when we look at the population of Indonesia, that's a big consumer market.
05:44 And I think in both countries, small and medium enterprises are the backbone of economy, I
05:51 would say.
05:52 And especially in technology, in both countries, what we see that there is a good human potential
05:59 and human resources.
06:02 I think there will be a lot of opportunity in terms of investment in those areas.
06:08 One area is, for example, transportation.
06:10 This is quite an important area.
06:13 Second one is technology.
06:15 And many technology companies in Turkey are thriving now.
06:18 I think they can have a put in Indonesia that will enable them to have a larger market in
06:24 ASEAN countries.
06:26 I think both countries are really appreciating the contribution of small and medium enterprises.
06:32 And I think, like in Nusantara, for example, the new capital that you are establishing,
06:36 we are trying to promote this in Turkey, that our companies can come to Indonesia and invest
06:42 in Nusantara.
06:43 That is an important, I think, area of investment.
06:46 The other area of investment for the Turkish companies that we try to motivate is the health
06:52 sector.
06:54 In Turkey, we have got a very strong health services, hospitals, doctors, et cetera.
06:58 I think that experience can be shared with this country.
07:02 And of course, defense industry is something different.
07:05 Maybe we need to open a new chapter on defense industry, because both countries are really
07:09 closely working together on many areas.
07:12 And the president-elect, Mr. Rabova, has been visiting Turkey on many accounts, and he has
07:20 very good knowledge of the Turkish defense industry.
07:24 So these are some of the areas that I think our companies can come together and explore
07:28 the opportunities.
07:30 Of course, there is a geographical distance between Turkey and Indonesia.
07:34 It's quite far.
07:35 That's why I think many companies choose the easiest way of working together with the neighboring
07:40 countries.
07:41 But there is time to go beyond that.
07:43 That's why I call on the Turkish companies plus Indonesian companies to come together
07:48 on different platforms.
07:49 Actually, we are encouraging both sides to have B2B meetings and also participate in
07:56 exhibition in both countries.
07:57 I think there is now a little bit, I think, this process is now getting better and better,
08:03 more, I think, beneficial for both countries.
08:07 So we are very optimistic that our companies will meet each other.
08:11 When they meet each other, they find a way of, I think, making business.
08:15 Because there is a lot of trust, there is a lot of confidence between the two nations.
08:19 As I said, historically, we have a very good image of Indonesians in our country, because
08:24 we have also a growing number of Indonesian students.
08:29 They are your diplomats in our country.
08:31 We have got 4,500 students.
08:34 They are at Turkish universities.
08:35 This is yet another area of cooperation, maybe higher education.
08:39 Because what we know that Indonesia has one of the youngest populations in the world,
08:44 and that means we need education.
08:46 We need to train all these young people for the economic development, for the progress
08:51 of our countries.
08:52 I think this is one area that we can also put on the table, explore the opportunities,
08:58 because young people, they need education.
09:01 They need access to higher education.
09:03 And Turkey can actually provide very good opportunities for several reasons.
09:08 I mean, many people, when they want to go to Europe or America, they face visa problems,
09:13 for example.
09:14 Yes.
09:15 We don't have to have visa to go to Turkey?
09:17 No, this is one chance that you have.
09:20 Of course, Turkish nationals, when they come to Indonesia, they need to get visa.
09:25 But Indonesians, we lifted visa for Indonesians, so they can come and enjoy.
09:30 They can go to Turkey freely, so they can travel.
09:35 So they will have no problem of entering the country, because visa is a big problem for
09:41 traveling.
09:42 We are living in a globalized world, and of course, a free movement is a basic human right.
09:47 But for several reasons, some countries are very tough in terms of providing visa.
09:51 So Turkey is a country which is bridging, I think, Asia and Europe, the West and the
09:57 East.
09:58 I think for many students, it is also a good opportunity to study at Turkish universities,
10:03 because all Turkish universities have Rasmus agreements with the European Mobility Agreement.
10:09 So they can also spend some time in one of the prestigious European universities, and
10:14 then come back to Indonesia and serve to their nation and country.
10:18 I'm very excited, because there's a lot of things to explore between the two countries.
10:23 And you also mentioned about borders earlier.
10:25 So let's talk about borders a little bit, specifically on transnational crime, Ambassador.
10:31 Asia and Turkey are also committed to working together to combat transnational crime.
10:36 So in what ways do you think can Indonesia play a significant role in this effort?
10:42 I think both countries face similar challenges.
10:46 It is not only the two countries that face challenges.
10:49 When you look at the borders, when you look at the movement of people, especially illegal
10:54 movement of people, it is in many places.
10:58 And I think Indonesia so far has controlled its borders quite successfully.
11:03 I think this is something that we need to note.
11:06 When it comes to Turkey, Turkey is located in a very critical juncture.
11:11 So we have got conflicts in our region, in Syria, in Iraq, now in Ukraine, as you know.
11:16 I think this also pushes many people outside of their countries.
11:20 So we see some issues in our border.
11:25 And of course, there are also money laundering, human trafficking issues.
11:29 These are all global problems.
11:31 And I think both countries can help each other.
11:34 I think this was one of the topics that was discussed between Minister Marsudi and Minister
11:40 Fidan.
11:41 I think so we are going to have some closer cooperation in combating transnational crimes,
11:50 including money laundering, human trafficking, and other areas like combating radicalism,
11:56 et cetera.
11:57 Because when you look at the political culture of the two countries, I think Indonesia is
12:01 the largest democracy in the Muslim world, and Turkey is a Muslim country, but also having
12:06 a democracy and secular state.
12:07 I think these are some of the areas also that would bring two nations and countries together
12:12 strongly.
12:13 All right.
12:14 So earlier you mentioned that Indonesia and Turkey, of course, has a lot of similar point
12:18 of view, especially when it comes to Palestine, and especially in light of the recent event
12:22 in Gaza.
12:23 So could you elaborate on the steps both countries are taking to support Palestinians' pursuit
12:28 of absolute freedom?
12:31 I think since the beginning of the Palestinian issue, which is not a recent issue, it's been
12:37 there for the last 70 years.
12:39 And in the last 70 years, we have seen the broadening occupation of the Palestinian lands
12:44 and colonization of the Palestinian lands by the Israelis, and also violation of many
12:48 of the UN resolutions.
12:51 And I think when we look at this background, we will see that this problem is not something
12:56 new.
12:57 It has a historical background, and we see many refugees.
13:01 They were kicked out of their countries, from their homelands, and we see settlers occupying
13:07 many places.
13:08 I think this is a very critical issue, and it should be addressed by the whole international
13:13 community.
13:14 And what we see today, actually, Turkey and Indonesia are working together with some,
13:18 of course, other countries.
13:20 There's a contact group, as I said, right from the beginning.
13:25 Both countries are trying to stop the genocide and crime, and also, of course, provide humanitarian
13:30 aid.
13:31 I think Indonesia has done a lot, and Turkey is also trying to do that together.
13:36 And all, I think, international fronts, we are together on the same page.
13:39 But also, I think both countries, while helping Palestinians, while taking this issue to the
13:45 international platforms, trying to also defend the multilateralism and rule-based international
13:52 order.
13:53 Now, what we see is that rule-based international order and multilateralism are dying, I think.
13:59 And I think this will be the last blow if we cannot find a solution to the Palestinian
14:04 issue.
14:05 Now, today, right this morning, while we are talking, civilians are being killed.
14:10 And there is no medicine.
14:11 There is no water.
14:12 There is no food.
14:13 I think that is a crime against humanity, and Turkey and Indonesia are doing their best
14:18 to help the Palestinians to find a lasting solution.
14:24 And so, also--
14:25 Actually, here, I just would like to mention that President-elect has written a piece in
14:31 The Economist.
14:32 And if you look at his piece, I think this is very touching.
14:35 He explains the background of the crisis and how it should be resolved.
14:40 I think we have complete agreement with the President-elect on the issue of Palestine,
14:46 because this is an issue which is not only, I think, confined to the Palestinians.
14:51 It's a regional issue.
14:52 It's a global issue today.
14:54 And I think if we cannot stop the genocide today, it will give a green light to other
15:02 countries where they can also have similar crimes.
15:06 I think it's time to stop, because also, the International Criminal Court had a decision,
15:10 I think, if we respect the international law, I think we should do more and more to stop
15:16 the genocide taking place.
15:18 And again, I thank the Indonesian people, Indonesian authorities, for their, I think,
15:23 very courageous and very brave position concerning the Palestinian issue.
15:29 Still on the relations between Turkey and Indonesia, how do you see Turkey and Indonesia
15:35 strengthening sociocultural connections and people-to-people ties?
15:39 Earlier, you mentioned B2B, and now we talk about people-to-people.
15:44 Could you discuss the role of especially the gastro-diplomacy in building these connections?
15:49 Okay, of course.
15:50 I think this is a very important issue, because politicians have their own, maybe, contacts,
15:59 and the trades and commercial people, industry, they can have it.
16:02 I think the most important one, and maybe the most, maybe the lasting one, is the people-to-people
16:08 relations.
16:09 As I said, we have got very good memories of Indonesian culture, Indonesian society,
16:14 Indonesian history, going back to the 15th and 16th centuries.
16:18 But today, of course, we have got more technology, more communication, as I said.
16:22 The face-to-face interaction, I think, is taking place, as I said earlier.
16:26 We have got many students, thousands of students, they are studying in Turkey.
16:31 I think they are the good link.
16:32 And also, of course, the culture is another link.
16:36 Turkey has established a UNICEF institute in Jakarta.
16:40 That is the cultural arm of Turkish cultural diplomacy.
16:44 So we there promote Turkish language, Turkish food, Turkish music and dance, etc., and also
16:50 film.
16:51 And also, recently, Turkey has established my foundation for Turkish studies at the University
16:57 of Indonesia.
16:58 So this will also promote face-to-face relations, academics, researchers, people from think
17:03 tanks, they will come together.
17:05 And also, of course, gastro diplomacy.
17:09 Like Indonesia, Turkey has a great variety of food and also cuisine.
17:15 We would like to see more and more Indonesians to have that taste in Turkey.
17:21 And also, we would like to bring, of course, this to Indonesia.
17:24 I think food is something that will bring us together, or a table that will bring us
17:29 together.
17:30 It is in our tradition, actually.
17:32 We share our food with our neighbors.
17:34 We share our food with our friends.
17:37 I think there is a similar case in Indonesia.
17:40 That's why I think gastro diplomacy is as important as other areas of diplomacy.
17:45 Sometimes it is maybe undermined, but it is an important part of soft power for many nations
17:50 and countries.
17:52 That's why when we look at the world outside, Turkish restaurants are thriving.
17:58 People in Germany are talking about Turkish doner, for example.
18:01 This is something.
18:02 We would like to see a similar case in Indonesia.
18:05 They talk about Turkish kebab.
18:07 They talk about Turkish food, Turkish baklava, Turkish sweets.
18:12 I think this is an important part of our relationship because our hearts are very close to each
18:18 other.
18:19 Now, our stomachs, they will become closer to each other.
18:22 That will bring, I think, more and more interaction.
18:26 And also, I would like to note here that we see an increasing number of intermarriages
18:30 between Turks and Indonesians.
18:32 So that will contribute in the long run to the relations between Turkey and Indonesia
18:39 because this will be like one family, two maybe different nations, two different ethnicities.
18:45 But when we look at the cultural values, I think we appreciate and we practice similar
18:51 cultural values together.
18:53 That's why this human-to-human contact is important.
18:56 We also promote Indonesia in Turkey.
18:59 Vice versa is also true, reciprocation.
19:02 We are, for example, having almost 150,000 Indonesians coming to Turkey per year.
19:08 So that is something very good for us.
19:11 But in the, of course, the whole tourist industry, it is a small number at the moment, but we
19:18 will see more and more.
19:19 What's your target?
19:20 Currently, Turkey receives 55 million tourists per year.
19:24 That is a growing number.
19:27 And Istanbul receives 20 million people, which is the top city in the world where people
19:33 on an annual basis go to visit.
19:35 And similarly, Turkey, I think, is in top three countries as a destination.
19:40 So we would like to see more Indonesians because you have got a huge population.
19:44 And also there is a program, actually.
19:45 There is a UMRA+Turkey program.
19:48 Turkish Airlines promoting this one.
19:50 And many people from your country, they would like to go to pilgrimage, they go to UMRA.
19:55 And when they go to UMRA, they can go to via Turkey, they can stay in Istanbul, and they
20:00 can visit several cities.
20:01 I think this is also something that should be kept in mind.
20:05 That's how also many of these Indonesian friends, they can taste Turkish food, Turkish culture,
20:11 Turkish friendship and hospitality.
20:13 Yeah, that's wonderful.
20:14 And also another interesting fact, Ambassador Kucukcan, I know that there are Indonesian
20:21 films that have been shot or filmed in Turkey as well in Istanbul.
20:25 So that's another cooperation that we can have between Indonesia and Turkey.
20:29 Thank you for reminding me.
20:31 I think the popular culture is something that we need to share.
20:35 Exactly.
20:36 And let me also underline one fact that the Turkish soap operas, Turkish films, Turkish
20:43 serials, TV serials are exported to more than 150 countries.
20:50 We need to see more of that in the streamers here.
20:52 Yes, Indonesia is one of the countries where I think there is a lot of interest in Turkish
20:57 films.
20:58 I think, as you have just mentioned, several of the Indonesian films are shot in Turkey,
21:05 especially in Cappadocia.
21:06 Yes.
21:07 Many of the Indonesians like to go there.
21:10 But I think we have more to offer, like places like Konya, Kayseri, Mardin, and all other
21:14 places.
21:15 I'm sure Indonesians will enjoy it.
21:19 But of course, Cappadocia is a place where there is a natural beauty, plus of course
21:23 there is a romanticism.
21:24 Yes.
21:25 You can take a balloon in the morning when there is a sunrise.
21:29 So we encourage people to propose in Cappadocia, actually.
21:35 Right.
21:36 Thank you so much, Ambassador Talukocukcan, for sharing so many insights and so many potential
21:44 collaborations.
21:45 Further collaborations, either it's B2B or people-to-people.
21:48 We encourage that.
21:49 And we also mentioned about the gastro diplomacy earlier.
21:52 And I can literally smell the wonderful aroma of Turkish food already.
22:00 So we're going to take a little break.
22:01 Thank you so much, Ambassador Kudukcan, once more.
22:04 After the break, we are going to have a special segment.
22:07 We're going to introduce you the foods of Turkey with our friend Shafira and also a
22:13 very famous chef, Ramazan Bingal.
22:17 So, let's go.
22:18 Thank you so much.
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22:36 (upbeat music)