Joe Nicholson and Phil Smith discuss Sunderland's defeat at Watford, the club's head coach search and contract situations.
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00:00It would be a genuine shock to me if he was to leave.
00:03I think the club, whatever people's opinions are,
00:07the club rate him very, very, very highly.
00:09If he's not going to break through at some point,
00:11realistically, somebody needs to try and recover some of his value.
00:30Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:35We're back for another Monday podcast after Sunderland were beaten 1-0
00:40against Watford at Vicarage Road.
00:43My name's Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writer at The Echo, Phil Smith.
00:48Phil, how are you doing this morning after Saturday's trip to Watford?
00:53Yeah, not bad, thank you.
00:55I think like everybody else really, probably just ready for the end of the season now.
01:00It's been obviously quite a tough few months and it doesn't really feel like
01:03we're learning a huge amount, to be honest, at the moment.
01:06So I think like everybody else, ready for maybe a bit of a fresh start, I think,
01:10and hopefully kind of draw a line a bit under the season
01:12and hopefully look forward to some better days ahead
01:16because it's been a pretty tough watch we've lived.
01:19Yeah, it was another disappointing afternoon on Saturday.
01:22It's now just two wins in 14 league games for Sunderland,
01:26two wins in 12 since Mike Dodds was named interim head coach.
01:30And as you said in that first half against Watford,
01:33it felt like two teams that didn't have a lot to play for in terms of promotion and relegation.
01:40Two teams that were playing with like a back three and wing backs
01:43and didn't really create many chances between them.
01:46I felt Sunderland were a bit better in the second half,
01:48although I can't really remember the Watford goalkeeper,
01:50Daniel Backman, having too many like big saves to make.
01:52There was that one from Callum Styles at the end.
01:55Wasn't there, but I think most of them were quite comfortable for him.
01:58So what were kind of your main takeaways from the game?
02:03Yeah, I thought it was, as you said, I thought it was a really poor game,
02:06especially the first half an hour where, like you say,
02:10there was a really strong end of season feel.
02:13Both teams lacked a bit of quality, I think, maybe a bit of ambition as well.
02:16I think, to be fair, Sunderland did end the first half on top.
02:19If you think there was the one where Clarke cut in
02:23and sort of curled his effort just wide of the far post.
02:27Rigg obviously had a big chance when he was played through on goal.
02:29That was quite a nice counter-attack where Auspich played him in.
02:32Not sure if Backman saved that or not.
02:35And then Hulme obviously had one didn't he, where the keeper.
02:37I thought that was a good save where he raced off his line and blocked.
02:40And I did think, you know, Sunderland had some good chances
02:43at the start of the second half as well.
02:45You know, got chances that, you know, not massively clear cut chances,
02:49but ones that Jack Clarke would definitely have taken earlier in the season.
02:52I guess that's just one of those things.
02:53So I did feel that on balance,
02:57I thought Sunderland were probably unlucky to lose.
02:59You know, Paterson made one good block off.
03:02I think it was Kiembe's volley, wasn't it?
03:04About midway through the second half.
03:06Other than that, he didn't really have a lot to do.
03:08Maybe could have done better with the actual goal itself.
03:11So it was a harsh result on Sunderland,
03:12just in that Watford produced so little really over the course of the game.
03:15And even their head coach, Sean Cleverley,
03:18afterwards kind of said they were bang average, you know,
03:20and probably a little bit fortunate to win.
03:22So I do think Sunderland, it was better than the Millwall game.
03:25It was better than some of their recent performances.
03:27I do think they were probably a little bit unlucky to lose.
03:30But having said that, you know,
03:33it still feels like there's been a bit of a shift late
03:35and they feel like a bit more of a counter-attacking team,
03:40a bit more of a defence-first team.
03:42And the reality is that at the moment,
03:44they're just not getting results playing that way.
03:46You know, they took four points from Leeds and West Brom,
03:49which to be fair, I think we all said was like a good return
03:51against that calibre of opposition.
03:53But, you know, the goalscorer and statistics,
03:55especially, speak for themselves of Leeds.
03:58And we always say it's a bit cliche,
04:00but if you're going to play that way, you have to get results.
04:02Otherwise, you know, there's going to be a lot of negativity
04:06because if the football's not great to watch
04:08and you're not kind of getting the rewards from playing that way,
04:11then it's kind of, you wonder what the point of it is.
04:15So, you know, I think it was a better performance.
04:18It definitely wasn't sort of one where they definitely deserved to lose,
04:21but I still think, you know, going forward,
04:24I think there's a lot of question marks at the moment.
04:28Yeah, you alluded to it there that Sunderland are not,
04:30they're not looking as good of an attacking force
04:33as they were earlier in the season.
04:35They're still very reliant on Jack Clarke.
04:36And you say he had a few chances that you probably would have taken earlier in the season.
04:40And when he has an off day,
04:42then the whole kind of attacking play just isn't kind of clicking.
04:45And then it takes one lapse of concentration at the back,
04:47which we saw on Saturday.
04:49And then Watford's substitute, Ryan Andrews,
04:51got sent through on goal and took his chance.
04:54But what did you make of the team selection?
04:56Firstly, to stick with a back three and wing backs.
05:00I thought perhaps he might go to a back four.
05:02Mike Dodds against Watford,
05:03but he stuck to the system that he had played in recent weeks.
05:06And also the decision to play Adonol Ashish up front.
05:10He came into the side with one or two changes
05:13with Bradley Dac dropping out of the squad.
05:15And it was a tough shift for him, wasn't it?
05:17Playing up there at Vicarage Road.
05:20Yeah, I was like you.
05:22I thought he would switch to a five,
05:24try and get some sort of bodies higher up the pitch.
05:27I thought it was probably...
05:29I felt like it was a little bit of a missed opportunity
05:31to play Styles in midfield as well,
05:33just in terms of like,
05:34Son and obviously have a decision about whether
05:35they're going to sign him in the summer.
05:37And I thought maybe this was a good chance
05:38to sort of see him in a different position
05:40against a decent opponent and see how they go.
05:43Kind of makes me wonder,
05:44is their mind already made up either way?
05:47Sort of thing at the moment,
05:48because that seemed like a good chance.
05:49I was surprised they didn't take that.
05:51The one thing I would say is that
05:53the best chances in the game did come
05:55when they had the back five rather than the back four.
05:59You know, Dodds obviously did switch to a back four
06:00for the latter stages of the game.
06:02And actually, I don't think you could say
06:04that Son created a huge amount more
06:05than they had previously.
06:07There was obviously that one where Hemiya went through,
06:09passed it to Roberts,
06:10who couldn't get the ball out from under his feet
06:12and then back and save from Styles.
06:14But it wasn't as if when they went to a back four,
06:16they were suddenly way more aggressive.
06:18I thought Ashish did look isolated for the most part.
06:21You could tell he was kind of frustrated,
06:23I think, both through the game when he came off.
06:25At the same time, you know,
06:27he very nearly gets an assist for that rigged one
06:28in particular, didn't he?
06:29Where he did really well to carry the ball
06:32basically all the way through the Watford half
06:34and then picked a good moment to play the pass as well.
06:36So I was surprised with the selection.
06:40I think at the moment,
06:44I feel like we're not learning a huge amount
06:45about these players.
06:47I think that, I assume,
06:49given everything that someone has said
06:50over the last 18 months or two years,
06:52they want this really front foot possession style.
06:54They want to get high pitch.
06:56They want to play a high line.
06:57They want to dominate possession.
06:59I don't really see at the moment
07:00how what they're doing is setting them up to do that.
07:04So I suppose the question mark is,
07:06are they just trying to get to the end of the season
07:08kind of relatively unscathed?
07:10Or are we seeing, you know,
07:11a more broader shift where they may be moving away
07:13from that strategy or that idea?
07:15I don't really know.
07:17So, yeah, it's quite hard to...
07:19There's a big gap at the moment, I think,
07:20between what Sunderland, you know,
07:23say they want to be
07:24and what we're actually seeing.
07:26Is that just because of availability and the situation
07:28and there's going to be a bit of a reset in the summer?
07:31I don't know.
07:32I hope so because I think, you know,
07:35it's a hell of a lot less entertaining to watch
07:38than it was last season,
07:40even for the first half of this season,
07:41even if, you know, being fair,
07:43they did probably create enough to score on Saturday.
07:46But even that was mostly through counter-attacking.
07:48You know, there was very, very little
07:50sort of sustained periods of possession
07:51that ended in a chance.
07:52It was mostly sort of capitalizing on a Watford error
07:55and catching them out on the break.
07:56So I think that's a really interesting sort of aspect
07:59of what's happening at the moment is, you know,
08:01as I say, is this a case of just trying to get
08:03to the end of the season and take stock?
08:05Or is it a bit more of a general shift?
08:10It'll be interesting to see kind of which one that is.
08:13Yeah, certainly a lot of big decisions to make
08:16in the summer.
08:16And the striker talk has been something
08:18that we've discussed a lot kind of throughout the season.
08:21But with Arshif playing up front,
08:23I suppose Dodds had to make changes
08:25because Dan Neal's been injured in midfield.
08:27So that meant Joe Bellingham moves back into midfield
08:30and that kind of leaves a void up front.
08:33Nazir Hussain's still unavailable.
08:35He's out injured.
08:36So then Dodds was probably left for the decision.
08:38Does he play Mason Berstow up there?
08:40Does he play Hamir up there?
08:41Obviously Berstow, I've said before,
08:43highly unlikely to be there next season
08:45because he's on loan from Chelsea.
08:46Hamir is obviously Sunderland's player
08:48and signed a long-term contract in the summer.
08:51And then the other option was to play someone
08:53like Oshish up there, which he did,
08:54or Bradley Dac, who played there against Millwall.
08:57But it does kind of seem a little bit quite damning
09:00on someone like Hamir, who Sunderland have brought in
09:02on a long-term contract.
09:03And then you're playing people that are out of position.
09:06Someone like an Oshish is playing up front
09:08while Hamir's on the bench.
09:09I know he did come off the bench in the second half,
09:12but where do you kind of see the future for him?
09:15Because probably a loan move next season
09:18probably be a kind of logical thing to do
09:20because he hasn't looked ready for a championship level,
09:23has he, when we have seen him play?
09:26Yeah, I think that you can obviously see Oshish,
09:29I think, is going to be part of the squad next season, isn't he?
09:31I think he's, you know, given the game time he's had,
09:34and I think by and large,
09:35we've seen some positive signs for him.
09:37So I can kind of understand that it was another opportunity
09:39to get him more championship exposure and more experience.
09:43With Hamir, I think that it's going to be a big pre-season for him
09:47because the one sort of thing that's been said consistently
09:49since he came into the club by all three head coaches
09:52who've looked after him this year
09:54is that he's a really good finisher behind the scenes,
09:56and they definitely feel that there's a player in there.
10:00What they've obviously, where they feel he's lacking
10:02is that they feel that maybe physically he's not yet at the level
10:06either to really sort of go up against
10:08the sort of physical experience championship centre-halves
10:11that we're used to and compete with him.
10:13And also, I think the pressing side of things,
10:14I think they feel that he's got some development to do
10:17before he can sort of carry out those pressing demands.
10:20So I suppose that then follows
10:22that it's a really big pre-season for him
10:23and see if he can get to that level in terms of his fitness.
10:29I think that the important thing
10:30is that Hamir is playing football next season,
10:32if he's not going to break through at Sunderland,
10:34then realistically, he's going to need to try and recover some of his value,
10:37because although he's obviously at the end of his contract at Benfica,
10:40there was obviously some compensation involved.
10:43So he was an investment,
10:44and so Sunderland needs to sort of rebuild that value,
10:47if you like, next year.
10:48And if he's not going to be involved at Sunderland,
10:50then they need him out playing somewhere.
10:53And I suppose in that context,
10:55it doesn't matter too much whether it's in the UK
10:57or whether it's abroad, I suppose, probably not.
11:00So I can definitely see that happening
11:01if he comes back for pre-season
11:03and he's not up to the sort of level
11:06that Sunderland feel he's going to play,
11:07because I think there will definitely be interest in Europe,
11:09because his sort of goal-scoring record at youth level was pretty good
11:13and he was very highly rated.
11:15All the head coaches this year have said that
11:18they feel like if it's a game
11:20where Sunderland are going to dominate the ball,
11:22where they're going to create chances,
11:23there's going to be balls dropping in the six-yard box,
11:26there's going to be crosses,
11:27they all feel Hamir can succeed in that environment,
11:30because they feel he's a good finisher.
11:32We haven't massively seen that this season.
11:34I feel like maybe a couple of chances passed him by
11:36and his confidence got knocked,
11:38but we did see in pre-season that he can finish.
11:41So I do think there's a scenario in which
11:44he can find his way back to the team,
11:47but I agree with you that it does look quite a long way off at the moment.
11:50But if they're not going to go and recruit a similar kind of player,
11:52then I'd be quite tempted to see if Evans wanted to stay on,
11:55just because I think he brings something different.
11:57You can find his way back to the team,
12:00but I agree with you that it does look quite a long way off at the moment.
12:03And clearly, what we've seen is they don't feel yet
12:06he's going to be in a position to go and start it,
12:08a way at Watford, a way at Leeds, a way at West Brom.
12:11Is that going to change over the summer? Possibly.
12:14But at the moment, yeah, I definitely wouldn't rule out
12:17potentially a loan abroad,
12:18see if he can rediscover that confidence more than anything.
12:22But yeah, we'll have to wait and see.
12:23Obviously, there's a lot of things going on at the moment.
12:25But yeah, we'll have to wait and see.
12:26Obviously, that would then leave someone to do quite a bit of recruiting
12:29to do it first, or does go.
12:30Then you've got Roosen.
12:32Roosen's probably been better as a wide player from what we've seen,
12:35cutting in.
12:37Meander probably looks the same
12:38if he's part of the squad next season.
12:40So that only really leaves you with Joe, to be honest,
12:43who I think definitely could be a success in that role
12:45and has shown some really good attributes at times.
12:47So yeah, I think that's, I mean,
12:49we've all known it for quite a while now,
12:52but I think it's just been underlined of lately.
12:53That's the big summer focus and priority for Sunderland, really.
12:58Yeah, as you say there.
12:58Yeah, certainly expect at least one striker signing in the summer.
13:02But in terms of outgoings,
13:04just looking at the players who are out of contracts.
13:07Obviously, we've mentioned Burstow.
13:09He's on loan from Chelsea and he'll go back there.
13:12He wasn't in the squad on Saturday.
13:14Neither was Bradley Dack, who is out of contract.
13:16Sunderland do have a one-year option,
13:18but it seems unlikely that they will trigger that.
13:20Then there's Corey Evans, who is out of contract this summer.
13:24There's a year option on his contract as well.
13:26And then you mentioned as well, Calum Stiles earlier,
13:29an initial loan deal.
13:30Sunderland do have an option of making that deal permanent.
13:34Out of them, can you see any of them staying?
13:36I mean, Dack and Burstow seem very unlikely.
13:39Evans, we haven't really, we've seen him kind of come off the bench,
13:43haven't we, the last two weeks,
13:44and he's a very influential member in the dressing room.
13:47But obviously he's been out for just over a year, hasn't he?
13:50And it's a big ask to come back and get back to the level that he was at.
13:53So what do you kind of see happening with those players that we've mentioned?
13:56Yeah, I think it's hard to see Burstow and Dack back next year, as you mentioned.
14:01I think Burstow, to be honest, is someone who they definitely rate quite highly.
14:07As he sort of told you earlier in the season,
14:10Sunderland initially wanted to sign him on a permanent last summer,
14:13which Chelsea didn't want to do because they rated him so highly.
14:16So I definitely think he's someone who Sunderland will kind of keep track of.
14:19But I just think, whether it's primarily because of confidence or what,
14:23it just hasn't worked out, has it?
14:24And I think, realistically, he probably needs a bit of a fresh start somewhere
14:29and to try and get some momentum.
14:31So I'd be really surprised, to be honest, if Sunderland pursued that Dack.
14:35You know, I think he just hasn't played enough football, has he really?
14:39I actually think there have been times when he's looked like a good,
14:42experienced option when he's been on the pitch.
14:45But we just haven't seen enough of him.
14:47I think, you know, I asked Dodds after the game on Saturday,
14:50whether those two not being in the squad was kind of looking to the future
14:53because they're realistically not going to be around.
14:56He did say that it wasn't necessarily purely because of that.
14:59Dack, he said, hadn't actually been able to train much during the week
15:02because of a little knock.
15:03So it wasn't just that he was almost kind of writing their Sunderland futures off.
15:07But actually, that probably is quite revealing in itself
15:09because that's kind of been the story of Dack's season.
15:11He just hasn't been available consistently enough to make an impact.
15:15With Evans and Styles, I think it's slightly trickier.
15:18Again, with Styles, we know that Sunderland
15:21have tracked him across multiple windows, really.
15:24He was, you know, he's not someone who, you know,
15:27just Michael Bale sort of suggested he wanted to sign him.
15:30He's been a kind of a long-term target.
15:32But I don't think, as of yet, have we seen enough
15:36for Sunderland to go and pay what will be a fairly significant fee.
15:40I'm not 100% sure we have.
15:42Having said that, he's not really played in his strongest positions all that much.
15:46And he certainly looked a lot better at wing back in the last few weeks, hasn't he?
15:49Which is a position he's far more comfortable with.
15:51So at the moment, I would say I'd be surprised,
15:53but I definitely wouldn't rule it out.
15:56Evans is the interesting one for me because,
15:58although, as you mentioned, he's been out for a long time,
16:00he's now been back in training for about five weeks without interruption.
16:05I think he's looked quite sharp in the two games he's come on.
16:09I don't think he's looked like someone who's been out for a long time.
16:12He's so experienced and he's so effective at what he does.
16:16I think he's probably still got something to offer.
16:18The point I would make is,
16:20because Sunderland haven't really replaced him since he got injured,
16:25if they're not going to sign a replacement for him,
16:28I'd quite like him to stay on.
16:30Because of what he brings in the dressing room,
16:31because obviously, and also because tactically,
16:33he gives you a completely different option to anybody else in the squad.
16:37So if Evans was to go and Sunderland were to bring in a similar kind of player
16:41and a similarly experienced player,
16:43then I would kind of understand that.
16:46But if they're not going to go and recruit a similar kind of player,
16:49then I'd be quite tempted to see if Evans wanted to stay on,
16:52just because I think he brings something different.
16:55But I have to say that I think it's more likely with all four,
16:58really, that we won't see them in a red and white shirt next year.
17:01I definitely think Stiles and Evans are the two who are more likely.
17:05But I guess we'll have to wait and see over the coming weeks.
17:07The fact of the matter is,
17:09I'm sure the head coach will have their own opinion as well.
17:11You mentioned the head coach there.
17:13That's obviously the big question over the summer.
17:15Who are Sunderland going to bring in as their next head coach?
17:19Rumours on Sunday morning that Rene Maric,
17:22who's the Bayern Munich under-19s coach,
17:24he's been linked with the role.
17:26And there's several other names have been linked in recent weeks.
17:30But how quickly do you expect Sunderland to make an appointment?
17:33Obviously, they've got this game against Sheffield Wednesday,
17:36this Saturday, final game of the season.
17:39Then they'll be back for pre-season in a few weeks after.
17:41But are we expecting a head coach appointment immediately?
17:45And obviously, it is important for them to get it done sooner rather than later.
17:49Yeah, I think there is a willingness to try and get it done sooner rather than later.
17:54The only thing I would suggest as a possible complicated factor in that
17:59is that obviously there are lots of other divisions
18:02that run a lot later than the Championship do.
18:05And I think realistically, part of the reason why Sunderland have waited
18:09until the end of the campaign is to make an appointment
18:11is because they expect a much wider pool of candidates.
18:16Because there'll be people coming to the end of the contract at other clubs,
18:19people leaving other clubs.
18:21So I do think, do I expect it to be done the day after the Sheffield Wednesday game?
18:26Possibly.
18:27But I wouldn't be surprised if it dragged on a little bit later than that.
18:31Because I think, yes, other leagues finishing their seasons
18:34may yet prove to be a little bit of a complicating factor.
18:37But I definitely think there's an understanding and a realisation
18:42that the season has ebbed away a lot,
18:44and you definitely need some momentum.
18:46And realistically, it's quite a while since Michael Bale actually left the club.
18:52So it's been a very long process already,
18:54which hopefully is a good thing.
18:56Hopefully, it means they can be really thorough
18:57and have all the information they need to make a good decision.
19:00So I guess my answer to your question is,
19:02I think a decision will be made pretty to very quickly.
19:05Whether we know about that straight away, I don't know.
19:10It may well be there's a lag while other factors
19:13and other leagues and other clubs come to their conclusion.
19:16Dodds himself has made clear to us in the media
19:19that he's got no problem going back into his old coaching role.
19:22He wants to be head coach, but he's not in any rush.
19:24Still feel he's got a lot to learn.
19:26I think he's still open to learning from other people.
19:28So I would be kind of amazed, to be honest,
19:31if Dodds didn't just revert to his previous role, as you said.
19:34There will be latitude for whoever is appointed
19:37to bring a member of their own staff in,
19:39but they'll have to go through the same recruitment process.
19:42Do you know what I mean?
19:42It won't be just total free reign.
19:44So I think that tells you that those are the conditions
19:47that the new head coach will be asked to work under.
19:50And Dodds, I think, will definitely be part of that coaching staff.
19:53And I imagine Michael Proctor and Alessandro Barcherini as well.
19:57It's not just Dodds.
19:58I expect all, as it stands,
20:00unless something significant changes,
20:02I expect all three still to be in the coaching staff next season
20:05with, like you say, a new head coach and potentially one further addition.
20:10Well, Dodds will be taking charge of Sunderland's final game of the season.
20:14That's against Sheffield Wednesday at the Stadium of Light this weekend.
20:18Wednesday know that a point for them would secure their place
20:21in the championship next season.
20:22They got a good 3-0 win over West Brom on Saturday.
20:27Said, yeah, just need a point coming to Sunderland.
20:29And even if they lose the game,
20:30it might be enough for them to stay up.
20:32They've been in really good form.
20:34They've had back-to-back wins.
20:35Before the West Brom game, they won 3-1 at Blackburn.
20:38In their last few games before that,
20:41they had draws in Stoke and Norwich and beat QPR.
20:43So unbeaten in five.
20:45So it's going to be a tough game for Sunderland.
20:48What are we expecting, Phil, in terms of kind of,
20:50what do you expect in terms of maybe team selection?
20:53What Dodds could do?
20:53We saw Tom Watson on the bench at Watford.
20:58Will we see many changes to the team, you think?
21:00Do we change of shape?
21:01What are you kind of expecting?
21:03Yeah, I don't know, really.
21:04I mean, I'm not sure what you think,
21:06but everything that we've seen over the last few weeks
21:08would suggest that Dodds isn't going to make
21:10a huge amount of changes.
21:12I don't see him.
21:13Yeah, I don't see him suddenly handing out
21:15a huge amount of opportunities
21:17just because of the way he's approached it so far.
21:20Do I think we'll see a slight sort of softening?
21:23I kind of hope so, to be honest.
21:24I don't really know what you've got to lose
21:26by maybe bringing Watson off the bench,
21:28maybe bringing, you know, Ollie Bainbridge
21:30or Harrison Jones or one of those players
21:33who's really knocking the door down
21:34because the under-21s, I mean,
21:35and their win yesterday,
21:36they secured a top-eight finish, haven't they,
21:39in that Premier League under-21s league,
21:41which is a really impressive achievement.
21:43So they're going to be in the International Cup next season.
21:45They've got a home tie, haven't they,
21:47in the playoffs now.
21:48Obviously, a team that you know really well,
21:49that you've watched a lot this year.
21:51I don't know which players you think
21:52maybe would be in line to come in.
21:54So, yeah, I think it might bring one or two
21:56into the squad, but I don't see him
21:58making wholesale changes.
21:59I think he's been pretty steadfast
22:01in how he's gone about it so far.
22:03Realistically, Sheffield are in much better form
22:05than Watford are.
22:06I think you could look at the form table
22:08and argue that they're an even stronger opponent
22:10than Watford were.
22:11So I suspect that would be a factor
22:12in his thinking as well,
22:13and not wanting to upset the balance
22:15of the side too much.
22:18Yeah, as you mentioned, the under-21s
22:20getting a win yesterday over Blackburn.
22:23So that means they will,
22:24well, they'd already qualified
22:25in the top 16 of Premier League Two,
22:27which means they'll go into the knockout stages
22:30of that competition,
22:32and they'll get a home tie.
22:33They've also qualified for the European competition
22:36by finishing in the top 12.
22:38And in terms of kind of the players
22:40that are probably at the top of that group,
22:42knocking on the door for a place in the first team,
22:44as you mentioned that Oli Bainbridge
22:46has been someone who's stood out in recent weeks,
22:48and he has been on the bench.
22:49I think it was the game away at Southampton,
22:51wasn't it, for the senior team.
22:52Harrison Jones has been on the bench
22:54and has done really well
22:54for the under-21s this season.
22:58But as you mentioned,
22:59Sheffield Wednesday in great form.
23:01It will be very difficult
23:03to completely change the team,
23:04make five or six changes
23:05and bring in a few under-21s players
23:07to give them a chance
23:08because it will be a very tough game
23:10against Sheffield Wednesday
23:12at the Stadium of Light.
23:13But that kind of rounds us off for today.
23:17Phil, thanks a lot for joining me
23:19on today's episode.
23:21And we'll, of course,
23:22have build-up to that game
23:24against Sheffield Wednesday
23:25this weekend at the Stadium of Light.
23:27Remember, as well,
23:27it is a 12.30 kick-off this weekend.