Off The Record | Kashif Abbasi | ARY News | IHC judges' letter - Latest Updates | 28th March 2024
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00:00 As-salamu alaykum, dear viewers, you are watching the program with Kashif Abbasi.
00:25 Today, we are joined by the Chief Justice of Pakistan, Mr. Wazir Azam Pakistan.
00:32 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:35 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:38 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:41 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:44 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:47 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:50 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:55 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
00:58 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:01 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:04 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:07 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:10 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:13 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:16 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:19 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:22 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:25 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:28 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:31 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:34 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:37 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:40 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:43 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:46 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:49 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:52 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:55 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
01:58 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:01 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:04 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:07 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:10 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:13 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:16 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:19 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:22 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:25 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:28 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:31 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:34 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:37 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:40 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:43 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:46 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:49 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:52 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:55 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
02:58 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:01 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:04 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:07 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:10 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:13 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:16 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:19 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:22 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:25 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:28 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:31 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:34 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:37 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:40 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:43 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:46 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:49 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:52 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:55 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
03:58 He is a judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
04:01 I am sure that the law minister will not be happy about this.
04:04 I am sure that the law minister will not be happy about this.
04:07 I think that he will not be happier than Mian Nawaz Sharif.
04:10 He took the name of General Bajwa and General Faiz
04:13 when he reached Gujranwala after so many years.
04:16 How many times do we see that after the government is gone,
04:19 politicians do all the deals.
04:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
04:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
05:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
06:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
07:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
08:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
09:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
10:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
11:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
12:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
13:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
14:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:34 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:37 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:40 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:43 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:46 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:49 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:52 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:55 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
15:58 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:01 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:04 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:07 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:10 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:13 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:16 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:19 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:22 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:25 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:28 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:31 We hear one name after 2, 4, 5, 6 years.
16:34 Mr. Sharma, the way I see it,
16:37 it's my opinion actually,
16:40 if there was going to be a meeting,
16:43 and if the judge used the consensus
16:46 that there was going to be a meeting,
16:49 someone could have a lot of objections
16:52 on my point of view.
16:55 But if you look at it, the allegations are very specific.
16:58 The allegations are specific and they are not about
17:01 the organization or its operatives.
17:04 Obviously, it's a well-organized organization.
17:07 So, it would have been better if there was a meeting,
17:10 and the DGI could have gone with the PM.
17:13 Obviously, the concern of the 6 judges
17:16 is not about the Zaraat, Apashi, or any other organization.
17:19 is not about the Zaraat, Apashi, or any other organization.
17:22 It's not about 3 or 4 organizations.
17:25 It's about one organization overall.
17:28 Mr. Sharma, the Chief Executive of our country,
17:31 Mr. Shahbaz Sharif,
17:34 the reporting line is obviously for the DGI
17:37 if you look at it on paper.
17:40 But the fact is that how much power
17:43 or authority does our country enjoy
17:46 in these matters of the PM.
17:49 Now, in my opinion, this commission of inquiry
17:52 has not been formed yet, the TORs have not come yet,
17:55 why do I say it?
17:58 Because if you look at it, the allegations
18:01 are black and white, and specific incidents have been quoted.
18:04 In my opinion, the fundamental argument is that
18:07 I endorse it, that there should be no false allegations.
18:10 It would be better if the Chief Justice
18:13 keeps all these matters to himself,
18:16 the Chief Judge,
18:19 and no doubt, he should encamera it.
18:22 At least, all the judges should be present,
18:25 the Supreme Court, all the judges should be present,
18:28 the Chief Judge should tell them about the specific incidents,
18:31 provide evidence, and collect that evidence
18:34 and give it to the government,
18:37 or I think that the DGI is also a part of this mechanism,
18:40 they should be given the evidence and complaints.
18:43 Sir, but Muneeb, this question is written in this letter,
18:46 that how will a judge prove these allegations?
18:49 Look, the thing is, Mr. Kashif,
18:52 I will say it again,
18:55 the judge,
18:58 because he has alleged,
19:01 he has put allegations,
19:04 or he has quoted all these things,
19:07 now we cannot do this,
19:10 that we can accept his statement without any research
19:13 and without any evidence.
19:16 The thing is, what he has said is less,
19:19 and the situation is worse than this.
19:22 I am talking about perception,
19:25 what we tend to hear,
19:28 and what we find out, that is different.
19:31 But if we come to the hardcore evidence,
19:34 then we cannot say that the judge said it and we should accept it.
19:37 We will have to say something.
19:40 Why am I calling the Commission of Inquiry a non-starter?
19:43 Why don't we come to the Supreme Court,
19:46 make a TOR cabinet,
19:49 and we will see from the point of view of suspicion,
19:52 and the example of the cat and the milk,
19:55 nothing has happened yet,
19:58 so our concerns or your questions are valid.
20:01 How can this be done? How can the executive branch do it?
20:04 Whereas the executive branch is officially accused of being a beneficiary of all this management.
20:07 It is a beneficiary of all these situations.
20:10 It is a beneficiary of all these political games in Pakistan.
20:13 I am going to quickly beat up Mr. Rauf Hassan.
20:16 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:19 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:22 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:25 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:28 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:31 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:34 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:37 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:40 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:43 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:46 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:49 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:52 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:55 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
20:58 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
21:01 He is a beneficiary of all these political games.
21:04 The beneficiaries, two beneficiaries, they meet together.
21:09 And they say that we will make a commission on a retired judge.
21:14 And they say that we will make a commission on a retired judge.
21:17 How can that be accepted?
21:19 How can that be accepted?
21:21 Prime Minister is a direct beneficiary of this.
21:24 He has a government.
21:26 After the night of oppression and oppression,
21:29 he has been perpetrated by the PTI for the past two years.
21:32 And he says that we will investigate this.
21:35 How can that be accepted?
21:37 So what is acceptable for you?
21:39 Acceptable is what is said in the letter.
21:42 You hold a judicial commission.
21:45 No, no, it is more about the connection than the commission.
21:48 The other judges, whether they are in the senior courts,
21:51 the other judges, whether they are in the senior courts,
21:54 or in the district courts, they should get a chance.
21:57 So that they come and tell what has been happening to them.
22:01 How has their work been intervened in?
22:04 This matter will not end with these six judges.
22:07 This is a matter of judiciary.
22:10 Judiciary does not just consist of these six judges.
22:13 In fact, there are hundreds of judges.
22:16 So judicial convention is the only way out.
22:19 But judicial convention is not the solution, sir.
22:22 Judicial convention, speeches will be held,
22:25 meet to movement, many judges may come and say that we also have a lot of pressure.
22:29 So this catch-on effect will happen,
22:32 but the solution to the problem is not with the convention.
22:35 The solution to the problem will come out of the convention.
22:38 When it will be found out how vast this network of intervention is in the judiciary.
22:43 How morbid this network of intervention is in the judiciary.
22:48 Then the solution to the problem will come out.
22:51 There is a rulebook on how to deal with such people.
22:54 Then make an independent commission on it.
22:57 In which the government is not a partner.
23:00 Sir, but if you talk about the commission, the government will make it.
23:05 No, the government commission can be made at the judicial level.
23:09 Sir, this can be a suo moto, it will be judicial,
23:12 a case will come to the court, a petition will come to the state.
23:15 You are saying that the Supreme Court should listen to this case and make an open hearing.
23:19 Absolutely.
23:20 And what is the live broadcast of it?
23:22 Justice is very keen on that.
23:25 Now is the time to broadcast it live so that the people of Pakistan know
23:30 how the judiciary was intimidated, coerced,
23:34 to get decisions of the liking of powers that be.
23:37 This is an important thing.
23:39 It should be open.
23:40 If the democracy is to come, to stay, and you have to strengthen it,
23:45 then all these interventions, unconstitutional and illegal interventions,
23:50 they will have to end.
23:51 So the first step, number one, is my contention and my party's contention,
23:55 number one is to discover the extent of intervention.
23:58 So first determine how much intervention is there and then make an open hearing.
24:03 That will come from the judicial convention and then the judiciary will act against this kind of intervention.
24:10 Let's take a break, Nazeem. We'll be back in a while.
24:12 Welcome back, Nazeem.
24:17 Two guests have said that there should be an open court hearing, Pasha sahib.
24:22 This is the opinion of the Supreme Court Bar and Muneeb as well.
24:26 First, give us your view. Do you think the commission is right or the SO Motor is right?
24:30 Kashifa bhai sahib, this matter has been going on for days and I have been coming to different programs for days.
24:36 And my, what was there, they used to ask me what is yours,
24:41 my answer was that they should take the congression of 184.3 and make SO Motor and do this.
24:48 This was my personal suggestion and I thought that these things should come to clarity at least
24:56 and it is a matter of judiciary and the judiciary should solve it.
25:00 Neither the administration nor any other institution should interfere.
25:04 This is my personal opinion.
25:06 So, I think if I say that everyone has consensus on this, that 184.3, SO Motor, the Supreme Court should do its hearing.
25:14 It would be better if the open court does the hearing.
25:16 And Tariq Khan sahib, with this opinion, and Rauf Hassan sahib said that this should happen.
25:22 This is a matter of TORs, Muneeb.
25:24 Now, obviously, this will become a very political subject, the TORs.
25:28 If it is included in it, like the law minister has given a suggestion,
25:33 misconduct of judges, should it be put in?
25:37 Should it be included in it?
25:39 If it is not proved, then what will be the punishment for the judges?
25:42 Because the law minister has given a suggestion.
25:45 Muneeb, I think you are not able to hear me, I think you will have to speak up.
25:49 Yes, yes.
25:50 Qais sahib, my request is that, I think we all have consensus that this should be included in 184.3,
25:59 or it should have been SO Motor, or it should have been in the Supreme Court,
26:03 and not in the Executive Branch.
26:05 Let me put all the allegations aside, because the judges had spoken,
26:09 they wrote to the Chief Justice, or the Supreme Judicial Council,
26:12 and said that by and large, the matter is the same.
26:14 So, the matter should have been discussed there.
26:16 And if this has to be resolved once and for all, then this is the way.
26:19 But if the matter is of TORs, and if the TORs have to be decided in the Cabinet,
26:22 then the Cabinet will do this first,
26:24 because these allegations are of a very serious nature, very serious.
26:30 If they are not able to prove it, and who has the onus of proving it?
26:34 It is on the six judges.
26:36 So, if they are not able to prove it, then judicial misconduct will be considered against them,
26:41 and their matters, because they, I am giving you information,
26:47 that it is in your mind, that it will be written,
26:50 if they do not prove their allegations, then their matter should be referred to the Supreme Judicial Council,
26:56 because they have politicised the institution of judiciary.
26:59 And they have put the most serious allegations on the Pakistan's premier intelligence agency.
27:05 Now, the question is, again, that I am not talking about perception,
27:10 I am talking about facts.
27:12 Facts, if the judges, let's suppose, are not able to prove,
27:16 they fall short, or they do not have evidence of many things,
27:20 then what will be the result?
27:22 The government is absolutely clear on this, that it will pin down the judges,
27:26 if they are not able to prove it.
27:28 But if you look at it logically, then is this practice,
27:33 like perception, again I am saying, I am not entertaining perception,
27:36 perception is much much stronger than these allegations.
27:39 If I talk about these allegations, and if they were not able to prove it,
27:43 then no prudent judge in Pakistan would have said that they should be brushed aside,
27:49 or let's leave it, they could not prove it, even though the allegations were true,
27:52 they could not prove it.
27:54 What they are alleging is a very serious charge.
27:57 What they are saying is a very severe and harsh thing.
28:00 And putting cameras in the house and all these things,
28:03 these are not small, normal things.
28:05 And we are sitting in the whole world, we are part of the globe,
28:08 our election is ahead, the whole world is on it,
28:11 the EU has done it, America is talking, anyone is doing it,
28:14 everyone is raising questions.
28:16 So here, if the judges are not able to prove this,
28:19 God forbid, what happened to them,
28:22 then can anyone say this, can we all come and say that,
28:25 no, it's okay, it's proven.
28:27 Sir, but it is written here, when Islamabad spoke to the CJ of the High Court,
28:30 they said, I have spoken.
28:32 Absolutely.
28:34 So, somewhere, circumstantially, this is being endorsed,
28:38 that the allegations that have been put,
28:41 and by the way, the charge sheet is against the CJ of Islamabad High Court,
28:44 who have gone to the judges six times,
28:46 this is happening, this is happening, on various occasions.
28:48 And he didn't do anything, he should have done something.
28:50 Even former Chief Justice,
28:52 Mr. Bandyal,
28:54 these judges went to Mr. Bandyal,
28:56 at the same time, they met Mr. Faiz Isa, as CJ of the CUNY judge.
28:59 So, nobody did anything.
29:01 First, they should have spoken to their own forum.
29:03 In that, I would like to say something about Mr. Faiz Isa,
29:06 that at that time, a judgment was coming from the Supreme Court,
29:10 in which, it was said to stop him,
29:13 that no other judge can take a suo moto,
29:16 except for the mother of the CJ of Pakistan.
29:19 And maybe that's why, as a senior CUNY judge,
29:21 he didn't take any step.
29:23 This is my thought, maybe.
29:25 Absolutely right.
29:26 But, Mr. Khosa,
29:28 again, how do you prove these charges?
29:31 How will you prove these charges?
29:33 Because, the argument of the patient,
29:35 based on the information,
29:36 let me rephrase it,
29:37 because, Muneeb's information,
29:39 nowadays, you know, nowadays, what I mean,
29:41 he's coming up with information,
29:43 that it won't be like this, that you,
29:45 it's been proved, that it's right or wrong.
29:47 He's saying that there will be consequences.
29:48 Now, take it from here.
29:50 This is not just one letter.
29:53 There are annexatures in it,
29:55 and if you read the annexatures,
29:57 then one letter, 7 judges have signed,
30:00 one letter, 5 judges have signed,
30:03 I was waiting for the entire Islamabad High Court.
30:06 And this, the Islamabad High Court,
30:08 these are serving judges.
30:12 The name is written, but there are no signatures.
30:14 Let me see, sir.
30:15 I can see the signatures.
30:16 No, sir, there are signatures too.
30:17 The name is written, but there are no signatures.
30:19 I have it in this.
30:20 I'm saying.
30:21 Sir, I don't have it.
30:22 Sir, I might be mistaken.
30:24 What I mean to say is,
30:25 that you have a journalist's foundation,
30:27 when you have a complaint with a journalist,
30:30 or you have a complaint about him,
30:32 then you handle it on your own.
30:35 Here, the entire world comes to the court to get justice.
30:39 Here, the entire world's arbiter,
30:41 and neutral arbiter, and expert arbiter,
30:44 is considered the court.
30:46 Here, the dispute of construction,
30:48 the dispute of contractual,
30:49 the dispute of your telecom levies,
30:51 the dispute of your taxation,
30:53 that comes to the court.
30:55 And the court, by raising such a serious issue of its own,
30:58 by raising its own beard,
30:59 should catch the executive
31:02 who was fully involved in this whole matter,
31:05 and who is now the beneficiary of it.
31:08 Such an inquiry, I am sorry,
31:10 has been disputed from day one.
31:12 I am not ready to accept this at all.
31:14 Nor is any lawyer ready to accept this.
31:17 Pakistan's legal community
31:19 is standing with Pakistan's independent court.
31:23 And Pakistan's legal community
31:25 wants that these things be seen very clearly and transparently,
31:30 that all these allegations are seen as threadware.
31:35 And the judges who have resigned in the past few days,
31:39 they should also be called.
31:41 What pressure did they have
31:43 that they left them before becoming Chief Justice?
31:46 Was there any news yesterday
31:48 that such a statement was made?
31:50 Yesterday, there was news in the market
31:52 that a statement was made,
31:53 and the judges who have resigned have said
31:55 that such a statement will be made,
31:56 that what pressure was used to leave them.
31:58 But Muneeb, coming back to you again.
32:00 Yes, yes, Khosla sahib, would you like to finish?
32:03 I think you want to add something.
32:05 Sir, I would like to say that
32:06 I do not accept such an inquiry at all.
32:09 And the lawyers of the entire Pakistan
32:11 do not accept their own beard in someone else's hands.
32:13 The judges are sitting,
32:14 and we should call them live.
32:17 Sir, I was watching the Punjab Bar Council,
32:19 they have welcomed him.
32:20 Sir, I do not want to go into the depth of this.
32:25 Take all the other speakers in this.
32:27 Look, we are a pillar of the state.
32:29 The lawyers and the judges are a pillar of the state.
32:31 Which speaker?
32:32 A pillar of the state does not fall
32:34 on another pillar of the state for its inquiry.
32:36 Yes, this is in the law,
32:38 this is the point that where the federal government has a problem,
32:42 it can come to the court with its dispute.
32:44 It can come to the court for interpretation.
32:47 It is never the other way around.
32:49 It is not the authority of the court
32:51 to take the case of Adhiliya and make an inquiry.
32:54 It should go to the government.
32:56 What will happen in this?
32:58 Will the police be presented in front of the investigators?
33:02 Will the judges be presented in front of the investigators?
33:04 Sir, this is what Pasha wants to say.
33:06 Our judges are honorable judges.
33:08 Our judges have no allegations.
33:10 They are honorable judges.
33:11 They are serving judges.
33:12 Judges from all over Pakistan are honorable and serving.
33:15 If any kind of pressure is put on them,
33:17 we strongly condemn it.
33:19 If seven or six judges have come in front of us,
33:22 we salute them for coming in front of us
33:24 and they have shown courage.
33:26 Sir, Pasha wants to say something.
33:28 I want to listen to Pasha.
33:30 Absolutely, this should be investigated.
33:32 I would like to say that
33:34 under the Commission Act,
33:36 the executive has to form the commission.
33:39 Just like it was done earlier,
33:41 the Chief Justice, who was a senior punit judge at that time,
33:44 and the other two judges,
33:46 had been appointed by the RDO Lease Commission.
33:48 Who did that?
33:50 This is provided in the Act
33:52 that the authority is with the executive.
33:54 That is why the entire Supreme Court,
33:57 not the Chief Justice,
33:59 the Supreme Court means all the judges of the Supreme Court,
34:02 they took the decision
34:04 that the Chief Executive of the country
34:06 should meet and talk about this commission.
34:08 That is when this commission was formed.
34:10 And this Chief Justice...
34:11 Sir, there are two situations.
34:12 One, the judge trusts that the government will do the right thing.
34:15 Or the judge is running away from his responsibility.
34:17 There is a way out of both of these.
34:19 Look, the thing is...
34:20 It is your responsibility.
34:21 How can you give it to them?
34:22 A choice cannot be given.
34:23 Listen to my request.
34:24 There is a choice.
34:25 You yourself said that it is a choice of 184.3.
34:26 Listen, they have asked for an opinion.
34:28 They have sought guidance.
34:30 Muazzat Jai Sahiba has sought guidance.
34:32 Sir, you are seeking guidance from the executive?
34:35 No, no, no.
34:36 From the Supreme Court,
34:38 from the Supreme Judicial Council.
34:40 Okay, from the judges.
34:41 I am saying that
34:42 they have sought guidance from the Supreme Judicial Council.
34:45 The Supreme Judicial Council's domain is not established.
34:48 The Supreme Court has held a full court meeting.
34:51 This decision was taken in that.
34:53 So, how can you brush this aside?
34:56 My personal opinion was still that
34:58 the 184.3 should be taken into consideration.
35:01 But a decision has been taken in the full court.
35:03 Let's see how it goes.
35:04 So, this is what I am saying.
35:05 Muneeb, again,
35:06 all the charges in this,
35:08 there are instances where
35:11 there was a discussion in the tea room.
35:14 The inspector judge came.
35:16 I think it was the inspector judge.
35:17 The inspection judge.
35:18 The inspection judge.
35:19 I am sorry, I am not technical.
35:20 The inspection judge.
35:21 The inspection judge.
35:22 And it is also mentioned
35:24 how there were discussions in the tea room.
35:26 The Chief Justice was told.
35:27 The Chief Justice said, "I will see."
35:28 He spoke to him and said,
35:29 "Yes, I have seen."
35:31 Then when the discussion continued,
35:32 the letter was written.
35:33 Now, in this,
35:34 when you say that
35:35 you have to prove it,
35:37 what should you prove after this?
35:39 He will also have to take on board.
35:41 The Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court.
35:44 He will also be part of this now.
35:46 By the way.
35:47 Yes, Muneeb sir.
35:48 When this letter was written,
35:51 when it was written to the Supreme Judicial Council,
35:53 the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court
35:55 is also there and he is one of the addressees.
35:57 And interestingly,
35:59 in one or two letters,
36:01 it was written that
36:02 he is the Chief Justice of the Islamabad High Court.
36:04 Naturally,
36:05 his response to this
36:09 or his take on this
36:11 will be very instructive.
36:13 If it is documented
36:16 that he spoke to someone
36:18 and he said,
36:19 "Now I have spoken.
36:20 This will not happen
36:21 if there was such a high-handedness."
36:23 Then, obviously,
36:24 he will also tell them
36:25 who he spoke to,
36:26 what happened,
36:27 exactly what transpired.
36:29 Obviously,
36:30 if the Chief Justice tells this,
36:32 then the authenticity of these claims,
36:36 even if not in totality,
36:38 will be proven to some extent
36:40 that there was definitely an issue.
36:42 Which came under the notice of the Chief Justice of Islamabad High Court.
36:44 Then he spoke to a concerned,
36:46 responsible official.
36:48 He then told exactly what happened in this.
36:51 So, the credibility of the allegations…
36:53 Mr. Brijal also spoke to someone.
36:54 He must have also spoken to someone.
36:55 I am sure.
36:56 I have heard this.
36:57 Yes, Muneeb.
36:58 Yes.
36:59 And the second thing is that
37:00 I would like to say one thing, Mr. Qais.
37:03 The issue is that
37:05 if we look at the overall,
37:07 as I was listening to Mr. Rahul Fasan,
37:09 we should see the rise of democracy,
37:11 the rise of the law,
37:12 starting from ourselves.
37:14 We don't talk about what happened earlier.
37:16 There are six judges.
37:18 I think five were not elevated
37:20 when the case of Shaukat Ali Siddiqui was filed.
37:23 But the fact is that
37:24 in Punjabi, it is said that
37:25 someone's throat is open,
37:26 someone's hands are straight.
37:28 So, these hands have been straight for a long time.
37:30 Now, the problem is that
37:31 where do you go?
37:32 When you are with someone else
37:34 and you are a beneficiary,
37:35 you say that they are doing a lot of corruption
37:37 and making the state officials controversial.
37:40 Sir, but the second argument in this is also that
37:42 it has to start somewhere.
37:44 Exactly.
37:45 I am saying the same.
37:46 So, let's start.
37:47 No doubt, 2017, 2018, 2019, 20…
37:51 Peace.
37:52 (upbeat music)