Swedish Foreign Minister tells DW a two-state solution will bring peace to Israelis and Palestinians. Tobias Billstrom said the immediate priority was the release of hostages kidnapped by Hamas and bringing aid to people of Gaza.
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00:00 In response to the militant Palestinian group Hamas' attack on Israel,
00:04 Sweden and the EU are reviewing their non-humanitarian aid to Palestinians,
00:09 while accusations are flying about a so-called "double standard" in the West's actions in the
00:14 Middle East and Ukraine.
00:16 We shouldn't have any double standards. We should apply the same standards when it comes to atrocities committed.
00:21 My guest this week on Conflict Zone is Swedish Foreign Minister Tobias Bilstrom.
00:26 He joins me from Stockholm.
00:28 As the bombardment of Gaza intensifies, how concerned is he that the conflict could spread
00:33 in the region? And with the risk of attention being diverted,
00:37 how can he continue to shore up support for the war in Ukraine?
00:40 Foreign Minister Bilstrom, welcome to Conflict Zone.
00:46 Thank you very much.
00:48 There are fears that the Israel-Hamas war could widen into a broader Middle East conflict as
00:54 Israel steps up its bombardment of Gaza and clashes at Israel's northern border with Lebanon
00:59 intensify. How are you looking at the current situation?
01:02 It is indeed a very, very horrible situation which is now evolving before our eyes.
01:11 And I think that we have to look at this from both a short-term and a long-term perspective.
01:16 The short-term perspective is, of course, that we need to bring more humanitarian assistance to Gaza.
01:22 We need to acknowledge that Israel has the right to defend itself against the atrocities and
01:28 terrorist attacks by the terrorist organization Hamas and the Islamic Jihad.
01:33 But we also have to look to the suffering of the people in Gaza and to find a way to bring
01:38 humanitarian assistance in the shape of water, supplies, food, and also fuel for the desalination
01:47 plants inside of Gaza to get fresh water to the people in there is important.
01:53 On the other hand, we also have to look at the
01:55 very important issue of releasing the hostages taken by Hamas. And in this I can see many actors
02:02 playing an important role, the European Union, the United States, the UN, of course, but also
02:08 the Arab states, who I think are acting in a very constructive way. I've done a reach-out
02:14 to colleagues in this regard, and that's my feeling.
02:16 The EU has increased its humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, but at the same time
02:22 you will be reviewing your non-humanitarian aid. What does that mean? Are you just now
02:28 checking if you indirectly gave money to Hamas, which the EU, as you've mentioned there,
02:33 classifies as a terrorist organization?
02:35 I think that under the circumstances it is prudent to see that no money which is allocated
02:45 to the Palestinian Authority finds its way into the pockets of organizations like Hamas
02:51 or Islamic Jihad. But in the long term, this is also connected to the question of the peace
02:56 process. We need to see that the Palestinian Authority can function and that it is a credible
03:01 organization, because if we are going for a two-state solution, and this has to be the
03:06 long-term perspective to establish peace in the region, two states, Israel and Palestine
03:12 being able to do this side by side.
03:14 Are you thinking about whether you will in fact reduce non-humanitarian aid, for example,
03:20 on the EU level? Because the EU is the biggest single donor of aid to Palestinians.
03:25 From an EU perspective, I don't see that happening. I think that it is important,
03:32 and I think that there's a clear majority also in the Council in favor of this. I also
03:39 think that we have to understand that undermining the credibility of the Palestinian Authority
03:45 would be a dangerous thing. That could actually help Hamas and Islamic Jihad to gain supporters
03:52 in Palestine, in both the West Bank and Gaza. That would be really dangerous.
04:00 When we look at the overall EU approach so far, what we have seen is disunity and confusion
04:07 on display. First, there was a statement that the EU said it suspended its aid to Palestinians
04:14 in response to the attack on Israel by Hamas. That statement was reversed soon thereafter.
04:19 Isn't it a bit embarrassing in the middle of a crisis like this?
04:23 I think that we have to separate the issues. It is quite clear that that statement was
04:30 premature, but that was done by an individual commissioner, not by the commission itself.
04:36 And when it comes to the member states, well, it is the member states who are calling the shorts
04:40 on this, and it is the member states also ultimately who decides this. I have to say
04:45 that I've just come back from yesterday's meeting in Luxembourg with the feeling that, yes, there
04:49 are debates and discussions, quite naturally in a heated moment like this, but the EU has to
04:54 maintain and achieve unity. Now we have an upcoming meeting with the leaders, the European Council,
04:59 now Wednesday, and that I think will bring some more clarity to this.
05:02 But you know what it does speak to, Mr. Foreign Minister, is how the EU expects to find consensus
05:07 on the future of aid for Palestinians and just the general approach to the situation.
05:11 I'd like to ask you about one aspect of that. How about, for example, calling for a ceasefire so
05:17 that that crucial aid that you mentioned, the humanitarian aid, may be let into Gaza for those
05:22 civilians? The UN is calling for it. EU foreign ministers couldn't agree at a meeting earlier
05:28 this week. Where do you stand?
05:32 Well, we stand on the side of a high representative, Josep Borrell, who has spoken about
05:38 a humanitarian pause. I think this is the way forward. We have to understand, again,
05:43 that this is a very complex situation. No easy solutions to this, no quick fixes. But a
05:50 humanitarian pause would enable us to bring the aid into Gaza to the suffering people in forms of
05:58 food and water and medicine and also fuel. And I think this is important.
06:04 You spoke a little bit earlier about diplomacy and the prospect of a two-state solution.
06:08 Sweden in general, back in 2014, was the first EU member in Western Europe to officially recognize
06:15 a state of Palestine, saying, and I'm quoting here, "We hope this will show the way for others."
06:21 You've been supporting Palestinians toward a two-state solution.
06:26 Is there any hope of that anymore, realistically?
06:28 Yeah, well, the two-state solution has to be achieved because it is the only way,
06:35 the only feasible way of bringing peace to this region, to the people who are suffering,
06:41 to both Israelis and to Palestinians. And there are credible solutions on the table and have been
06:48 for many, many years now. But what it boils down to is that you have to achieve trust and you have
06:53 to achieve confidence enough among leaders. And one thing, though, that I take a bit of hope in,
06:58 and I think one has to understand, of course, that during a moment like this, when the bombs
07:04 are falling, it doesn't perhaps seem, perhaps you don't feel like this, but actually, after every
07:10 big crisis over the last 20 years, there has been a restart of the peace process and a way forward.
07:16 And I think we have to understand that this could be the outcome of this terrible situation which
07:20 we are facing right now. And frankly, the Swedish government don't really see an alternative to the
07:25 two-state solution. So we're going to work in favor of this with partners, both in the Middle
07:30 East, with the United States, with the UN and within the EU, of which we are a part.
07:34 Let's turn now to the impact inside the EU's borders. We are seeing heightened security
07:40 concerns here in Europe over the situation in the Middle East. The EU foreign policy chief,
07:45 Joseph Borrell, said last week that when he hears, and I'm quoting here, "religious authorities
07:50 speaking the language of inter-religious conflict and explicitly stating that Europe is a party to
07:55 the conflict," he feels the storm clouds are looming. He says he believes we are on the
08:01 edge of the abyss. Do you agree with him? I think that he's onto something very important,
08:08 namely that we have to find a balanced way forward. We have to acknowledge the
08:13 indispensable right of Israel to defend itself against terrorist attacks. Frankly speaking,
08:18 which government wouldn't do that when you're faced with the slaughtering of your own citizens
08:23 in thousands, as has been the case on the 7th of October atrocities?
08:27 So European countries, they're increasing their security measures, including border
08:31 checks as a result of the conflict and a series of violent attacks here, including two Swedish
08:37 nationals killed in Brussels last week by a gunman claiming allegiance to the so-called
08:41 Islamic State, presumably in response to a number of recent Quran burnings in Sweden this past year.
08:47 Tell us a little bit more about the security situation and how it's affecting Sweden in
08:52 particular. Well, the terrorist deed was, of course, terrible, and we are all in shock,
09:01 together with the people, the near and the dear, who suffered the loss of the lives of
09:08 family members. We also have to look, of course, to the security situation. You mentioned it,
09:13 and I think we have to do this on many levels. The Swedish security police already during the
09:19 summer raised the level of terrorist threat from three to a four and a five scale,
09:25 and we actually were afraid that something like this, which happened in Belgium, could happen.
09:31 But that mustn't deter us from continuing along the same path that we have already started to
09:36 thwart, and that is to clamp down on terrorism. And we have to do this with the help of the police,
09:41 but we also have to do it with the dialogue with people so that we can push back the terrorist
09:46 threats and the levels which we see are rising now in our society. But can you tell us a little
09:51 bit more about how you're clamping down on the incidents that have caused so much anger? Because
09:56 you know, many in the Muslim world are furious about these public Quran burnings that have taken
10:01 place in your country. And I'd just like to bring in the example in June, because there we understand
10:07 that two men were watched by a crowd of people. They tore pages out of the Quran. They burned them
10:12 outside of a mosque. And they were granted a permit for demonstration. That's how things work
10:18 in your country. They didn't hide their intent to burn the book. And yet, the New York Times
10:23 reported this, that the demonstrations were not allowed to burn objects in Stockholm.
10:30 So how is it that these demonstrators were able to ultimately burn the book?
10:35 The reason is that the Swedish legislation is constructed in a way that we give permits for
10:42 demonstrations. But as you said, quite rightly, they do not have a permit to burn the book,
10:48 to burn Holy Scripture, the Quran, or any other book. What the Swedish government is now doing
10:54 is that we have launched an inquiry into the Public Order Act, which governs the police authorities
11:00 and responsibility to grant permits. And that inquiry means that it will also lead to
11:06 an opportunity to look into the possibility of bringing national security when you grant a
11:12 national, when you grant a permit, something which you cannot do today. And this is a tool which the
11:17 government wants to know more about. But Mr. Foreign Minister, your neighbor Denmark, for
11:22 example, they're taking moves to actually outrightly ban Quran burnings following outrage
11:28 over burnings there as well. Is it time for Sweden to think about doing the same?
11:32 The problem is that Denmark and Sweden have different legislations. If we were to do the
11:39 thing which we are doing in Denmark, that would be a constitutional issue. It has to lead to
11:44 constitutional changes in Sweden, while if Denmark were to do what we are planning to do, changing
11:48 the Public Order Act, that would lead to constitutional changes in their legislation,
11:53 because they don't operate permits. Russia has meantime been spreading narratives,
11:57 especially in the developing world, saying that Sweden is hostile toward Islam. For example,
12:02 the Kremlin-controlled outlets created a rumor that Swedish social services were systematically
12:07 kidnapping and trying to Christianize children from Muslim families. That campaign is said to
12:12 have reached hundreds of millions of followers on social media. How widespread is disinformation
12:17 like this? How big is the problem for you? It is a big problem. We can see that states,
12:24 both Russia, state and state actors, Russia and Iran, it's also another country, which has
12:30 furthered this campaign and promoted it in social media channels. It is a very, very
12:36 aggressive campaign, and it aims both towards Muslims in other countries and Muslims in my own
12:43 countries, in my own country. We are now combating this. We have brought together the responsible
12:49 authorities in Sweden, all the way down to municipality level and all the way up to national
12:53 authorities in order to hammer out a counter campaign to this. And we are well on this from
12:58 the government side to do so. We're also going to do it together with partners. And we have to
13:02 understand that this is the new information warfare and operational arena which we are living through.
13:09 This is the way things are going to be conducted, that you find things, small grains of truth,
13:14 and then you blow them up. It's an old Russian trick, but you have to work against it.
13:18 Let's turn now to the war in Ukraine. How worried are you that attention and weapons
13:23 will be diverted elsewhere given the conflict in the Middle East? For example, we've seen the US
13:27 saying last week that tens of thousands of artillery shells promised to Ukraine
13:32 are now going to be diverted to Israel. A sign of more to come?
13:36 You know, I'm quite confident in the words of President Biden when he was interviewed the other
13:44 day and said, you know, we are the United States. Of course, we are capable of handling two conflicts
13:49 at the same time. And I'm quite confident that this will be the case. And also, the conflict in
13:56 Israel is not the conflict in Ukraine. It is not only in a much, much smaller scale, it is also
14:01 different in its entire makeup. The war in Ukraine is a large scale war, something, you know, we
14:07 haven't seen in Europe since the Second World War. So we have to look at it from that point of view.
14:12 But as I said, we're quite confident in the words of President Biden.
14:15 But where do you get that confidence, Mr. Foreign Minister? Because, I mean, it's quite clear that
14:20 the US president doesn't always have his Congress behind him. We've also been seeing divisions in
14:26 the EU over Russia. They have been taken to the next level, in fact, after Hungary's Orban met
14:33 with Putin. We've also seen the election of Robert Fico in Slovakia, who ran on an anti-Ukraine
14:39 platform, basically showing how quickly the tide can turn, especially considering that Slovakia
14:45 was the first country to deliver fighter jets to Ukraine. Aren't you concerned about EU unity
14:50 and support for Ukraine? I mean, this seems like a clear sign of waning European support.
14:56 President Biden is clearly contemplating a package to be brought to Congress consisting of aid to
15:02 both Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan in the same combination. I think that needs to be brought
15:07 into the scope to understand the political realities. And again, we feel confident about
15:12 this. Looking then to the EU, well, during the recent Swedish EU presidency during the spring,
15:18 we were able to bring forward two new sanction packages against Russia. And I think that we
15:25 are able to maintain unity and move forward. And I'm worried about this, but we have to
15:32 constantly contemplate it and not take it for granted. That needs to be said. And above all,
15:38 we have to give acknowledgement to the huge effort by the American people. I've said this
15:44 publicly, and I'll say it again. The fact that the U.S. has provided so much military support
15:49 to Ukraine is the reason why Ukraine is still standing as a state. The EU has done a lot when
15:54 it comes to financial support to Ukraine, but we need to do more when it comes to military support
16:00 and acknowledge what the U.S. people are doing for Ukraine. Experts say that one of the few
16:05 weapon systems that could change the course of the war is fighter jets. Sweden says that it will
16:11 only provide its Gripen warplanes to Ukraine if it gets NATO accession. Is there no chance of you
16:16 providing these warplanes beforehand? Well, I was present at the press conference
16:24 at Hapsund, the prime minister's summer residence, when President Zelensky visited us earlier this
16:30 autumn. And what the prime minister said then, it still stands, namely that we have to see to it
16:36 that our NATO accession process is finalized. But we are already now training Ukrainian fighter jet
16:43 pilots. How quickly could you get Ukraine the planes if you are indeed admitted to NATO?
16:48 Well, I'm not going to talk about that because that is, of course, military secrets. But what
16:54 I could say clearly is that once we have become NATO members, things will be in a different light.
16:59 But we have to look to our own security first. That is, of course, imminent and imperative.
17:05 Another security threat, recent attacks on undersea infrastructure, this time a communication
17:11 cable between Sweden and Estonia in the Baltic Sea, a gas pipeline connecting Finland and Estonia,
17:16 also damaged. Your prime minister has warned that these undersea data cables are both essential
17:23 to the modern economy and vulnerable to attack. How vulnerable are you?
17:27 Well, it's not just us. Actually, we have to look at this again from an EU and from a NATO
17:32 perspective. I mean, we have a neighbouring country, Norway, who has gas fields and oil
17:37 fields where you can see where the underwater cables are essential to the economy. And I think
17:42 that we have to understand that this is also a new type of time which we are living in. And the
17:48 attitude of my government is that we need more cooperation with our neighbours, more cooperation
17:52 with our NATO allies in order to counter this. And that calls, of course, for both more, I should
18:01 say, capabilities when it comes to surveying situations underwater. And luckily, Sweden has
18:07 good capabilities already. But we also would like to see more cooperation on this because this is
18:12 not something which is going away. We can see that this could be a very dangerous tool for
18:18 adversaries to use against countries like Sweden, Estonia and Finland in this case.
18:23 And Finland's foreign minister said the two undersea links have probably been damaged on
18:27 purpose. Do you agree? Is it likely sabotage? Who's behind it? Russia?
18:31 Well, again, I need to say that I'm not going to attribute this to any country right now. There is
18:39 a police investigation underway when that is finalised and the prosecutor has said what they
18:45 need to say. I might be able to do a public statement on this. But before that, I'm not
18:51 going to do it. I think that would be wrong of me as a minister to do so.
18:55 Let's talk about your membership in NATO, which has long been blocked by Turkey. Turkish President
19:01 Recep Tayyip Erdogan has just submitted a bill approving your membership bid to his parliament
19:06 for ratification. In general, though, how disappointed are you in the process and the
19:12 demands that Turkey has been placing on you? I've said it many times before, and I'll say it
19:19 again, that the memorandum signed in Madrid at the summit in Madrid last year was important
19:27 because it meant that Sweden undertook certain responsibilities for changes that were legitimate
19:33 on behalf of Turkey. And those changes have been conducted. That means that we now combat
19:40 the organisation PKK's activities in my country in a more coherent way, taking measures which
19:45 have led to people being handed verdicts in our courts. For example, a man was handed a verdict
19:51 just two weeks ago, a four and a half year sentence for armed robbery with a clear connection of
19:58 getting money to send to the PKK. Now, the PKK doesn't conduct terrorist operations as such
20:04 on directed against Sweden on our territory, but they collect money which were used to terrorist
20:08 activities against Turkey. So, Turkey have had legitimate claims, but the summit in Vilnius
20:14 this summer meant that Turkey acknowledged that Sweden had fulfilled our part of the bargain.
20:19 And that means also that the start of the ratification process now underway in the
20:24 Turkish parliament is a firm sign of this. But, you know, I mean, there was the recent
20:30 comment, though, however, from the Turkish vice president saying that we don't see a
20:35 satisfactory level of implementation. When we talk about those measures that you have taken,
20:40 we have also seen Erdogan make a request from the United States, including the US selling F-16
20:49 fighter jets to Turkey as a precondition to your accession. You've already taken all these measures
20:55 that you've highlighted there. When is it just too much to ask for? When is it just too much to
20:59 ask for? You've already taken all these measures that you've highlighted there. When is it just
21:02 too much for Sweden? What are your red lines? Well, first of all, this is a fundamental change
21:10 of Swedish foreign and security policy, the largest one in 200 years. We have been a non-military
21:17 aligned country for two centuries. So, of course, a question of a few months doesn't mean very much
21:23 in that perspective. And we are not disappointed at all. On the contrary, yesterday's news were,
21:28 we aren't through yet. We need to see the full ratification process happening in Turkey,
21:32 and then, of course, also in Hungary. And yeah, let's talk more about Hungary,
21:36 because they must also sign off. There, the foreign minister has written you a very pointed
21:41 letter asking you to stop your politicians and press from criticizing Hungary's democracy.
21:50 Otherwise, it won't ratify your accession. The Hungarians even uploaded that letter to Twitter.
21:56 And, of course, they know that you can't control what opposition politicians or press might be
22:00 saying because of freedom of speech laws. So what do you think is at play here? The
22:04 Hungarian government just looking for excuses to feel insulted? And how concerning is this?
22:09 I think that the Hungarian parliament has been very clear on the matter, saying that we won't
22:20 be the last to ratify Sweden. That has been repeated both by Prime Minister Viktor Orban
22:26 and also by my foreign minister colleague. And that means that Hungary has already committed
22:31 itself. Once the process in Turkey is underway, as it is now, we expect ratification to start in
22:38 the Hungarian parliament as well. And they only have the final vote left. They've already done
22:42 the committee work in the parliament. And also, just on that same line, there is a difference
22:48 also between Turkey and Hungary. With Turkey, we have had a memorandum, clear memorandum,
22:53 clear stakes. Hungary never asked for anything like that when they accepted that Sweden were
22:59 given the status as the invitee at last year's summit in Madrid. So I think that the Hungarian
23:05 parliament should move on with the ratification. And that is the clear position of the Swedish
23:10 government. Some, especially in the global south, are looking at the wars in Ukraine and the Middle
23:14 East as an approach that is laced with double standards. One analyst saying there's a perception
23:21 that the West cares more about Ukrainian refugees, about Ukrainian civilians suffering, than suffering
23:27 in Yemen, in Gaza, in Sudan and Syria. The former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt has said the
23:34 following. This is something that we must deal with. First of all, do you even recognize that
23:39 there could be a double standard at play? And how do you deal with it?
23:43 Well, we have been very clear from our part, on our part, especially in my statement, which I
23:51 delivered at the United Nations General Assembly, where I said very clearly that we need to take it
23:57 to account that the Ukrainian conflict is something which, you know, is of importance to all the
24:03 world. Because it means that if Ukraine were to lose, the rules-based world order and the UN
24:10 Charter would be gone. And those are principles which means a lot to our global partners,
24:14 wherever they are in the world. And this is a good platform to stand on. But I do acknowledge
24:19 what you say. We have to take, we shouldn't have any double standards. We should apply the same
24:24 standards when it comes to atrocities committed. And we should also, that means that the
24:30 humanitarian problems which we now see in Gaza needs to be solved in order for this to be,
24:34 you know, a credible policy operated by the EU.
24:37 Some diplomats are warning that the West is losing the global South. What is the danger here if this
24:44 situation is not handled well by the EU, if the South does not perceive that the West is handling
24:51 the situation well and equitably?
24:54 Well, that could be, definitely could be a threat. But I think that we are doing the right thing
25:01 right now. We're both seeking a reach out to the Arab world in looking for solutions, both to the
25:08 hostage crisis in relation to the terrorist organization Hamas, and also the question of
25:13 humanitarian pause when it comes to Gaza, and ultimately the two-state solution, which needs
25:18 to be brought forward. Only by operating on all these levels at the same time can we maintain
25:24 credibility on the global level.
25:26 Foreign Minister Bilström, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us on
25:30 Conflict Zone. Thank you for your time.
25:31 Thank you very much.
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