In this episode, Seth Matlins, managing director, Forbes CMO Network, talks with Tim Ellis about creative courage, marketing to and with the Commissioner and owners, and how to both focus on and transcend the game.
In the episode, Ellis tells the story of how Volkswagen’s 2011 Super Bowl ad, "The Force", came to be. And how it almost didn’t. See the spot that’s been credited with changing Super Bowl advertising here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpL_DcT6ko8
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In the episode, Ellis tells the story of how Volkswagen’s 2011 Super Bowl ad, "The Force", came to be. And how it almost didn’t. See the spot that’s been credited with changing Super Bowl advertising here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpL_DcT6ko8
Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1
Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:
https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript
Stay Connected
Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com
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More From Forbes: http://forbes.com
Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.
Category
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00in 2011 you did an ad for volkswagen that uh is known as the ad that changed super bowl
00:13advertising forever that was a headline which is kind of funny given that you're now the cmo of the
00:19nfl but before it could be the ad that changed super bowl advertising forever you had to change
00:26a few minds tell us a story about it yeah well everyone knows that there's a tremendous amount
00:33of pressure to do any super bowl right and um because everyone's nervous that you know you're
00:40a lot of money right a lot of money everyone's looking at it everyone's going to grade it they
00:45got the usa today ad meter you know that's going to come out and everyone's going to look at it and
00:50so forth and even believe it or not and i work for volkswagen a german company the
00:55headquarters are based in you know in wolfsburg even the executives in wolfsburg were really
01:01nervous about the whole thing well you know it was a relatively new agency at the time deutsch la
01:07and they had an ad that was i saw immediately when i when i when they presented it to me was just
01:14gold right um but it was for a car it was a new car the first car that we that we did there in
01:22chattanooga um first time that they had uh manufacturing in the united states and the car
01:28wasn't coming out until i think september or something so it was like six months or something
01:32before the car came out and you know they're like well we can't go this early with it with this
01:38those who said that were were your right bosses we're not going to spend all this money
01:44and come out with this with this ad this early um and i said well first of all this is you can't
01:52think of this as a product ad this is an ad for the brand right this is going to make people think
01:56differently about volkswagen and you know volkswagen it's it's like one of the leading car manufacturers
02:03of course in the world together with toyota and but but in the united states they're still a niche
02:08brand right like this is a way to really in particular in 2011 yeah exactly and this is a
02:15way to really get people to pay attention to this to this this this car brand and get them interested
02:21in all of our cars including right the car that was that the brief i mean was that what the brief
02:26that you gave yeah oh it was that was it was a branded yeah yeah the brief was a branded okay um now
02:32on top of that i said and let's let's be honest if you come out this this car is going to come out
02:37there's gonna be a ton of press and a lot of um big you know big campaigns around this car
02:42when you put it out this early people are gonna think this must be a big deal right this this must
02:47be a really important car to be talking about this early before it comes out in the fall by the way
02:51which which uh which volkswagen are we talking about it was the new passat right okay and the 2012
02:57passat it was going to be coming out in in the u.s but it was it was important it was that it was the
03:02first car that they were going to manufacture in the new chattanooga factory right again that's why there
03:07was so much pressure on the whole thing and and there was so much focus and interest in it but
03:11again it because it because it was a super bowl that was a big deal so anyway so ultimately you know
03:17we we kept trying we had a little bit of time before we had to make a final decision and we you
03:24know we we kept looking at different ideas um but every time there was another round of work i mean
03:30there's it was just nowhere near as powerful as that ad and i was gonna be damned if i wasn't
03:35doing that ad i mean i was doing that ad one way or the other so i just kept like i i just was
03:41relentless in the way that i sort of talked about that ad and how it was going to you know bring the
03:46brand back and how it's going to create so much excitement and it would be the talk of the the whole
03:51super bowl and so forth um to the point to where you know even the agency was getting nervous
03:56because they knew my boss who was the you know the head ceo of volkswagen north america was also
04:03like very influenced by the guys in wolfsburg so he didn't want to do it either right so essentially
04:09it was me trying to defend it against my own executives in north america and germany and then
04:15the agency started getting nervous right so that the top levels of the agency was just like oh we don't
04:20want to do this because is that because expectations you were just creating expectations that were sky
04:25high or or why what were they no because i was being so damn stubborn right because i was just
04:30being like no i'm we're doing it no but why was the agency nervous i'm shouldn't be well because they
04:35knew that the head the ceo of north america was getting angry i see right he was he had had enough
04:42of it he was like fed up he wanted to do what the executives in willsburg wanted to do and i was just
04:49like that's just the wrong decision i mean that's this that's just a really bad decision so i just
04:56kept and what was what what was your i do i refuse to take no for an answer why did they think you
05:04were wrong and how did you ultimately convince them because they couldn't they couldn't get their
05:09head around them because they couldn't get their head around the timing of when you're supposed to do
05:14a car launch uh they were supposed to you're supposed to conventional you know conventional
05:19wisdom you're supposed to do a car launch two to two and a half three weeks before you know the car
05:24came out and of course we launched a lot of cars so that was the normal cadence of when you would come
05:29out with something like that but so i had to really and ultimately i think that the argument that won
05:34them over was that this was going to lift the brand this was going to create a halo around the
05:42volkswagen brand and that all of the cars underneath the umbrella would benefit from it and ultimately
05:48it would drive our sales short term and long term because people would like the brand they get want
05:54to be more they'd be more interested in it and ultimately they would you know they would come in and
05:59and and buy a car and did it and it did oh listen that was one of the one of the great things about
06:06actually both of my companies i worked for volvo and volkswagen very unconventional campaigns on on
06:13both both brands but it drove interest and it drove it drove ultimately drove traffic into the
06:19dealerships which resulted in sales so for our uh listeners and viewers we're talking about what was
06:25the darth vader ad in 2011 why did it what did it do the first what did it do that changed superbowl
06:32advertising from your perspective if not from whoever wrote that headline uh yeah time magazine
06:38came out there's a lot of discussion around that ad because again talk about conventional wisdom at the
06:43time um the big none of the big advertisers were putting their ads out there before the actual game
06:50itself right so the conventional wisdom was you always waited to debut your ad on the actual game so we
06:56have you to thank for the onslaught thank you yeah you're welcome the craziness that we all have
07:02right now yeah yeah because i mean i you know and the reason for that it's very simple again
07:07believing in your gut right the the reason for that is that i i only had a 30 second
07:13slot right for for the ad and i did everything in my power to get a 60 i was begging people i was
07:19calling the nfl's i don't know i can't remember which network was running it but i was calling
07:23everybody to try to get a 60 on there and the reason for that was because the 30 was fantastic
07:28the the 60 was absolutely brilliant so when i saw the edits and we worked hard to get the 30 as great
07:35as it could be and again it was very very strong but now i got 60 the 60 was amazing right so i'm
07:40like everyone's gotta see that 60 so i just said well fine then we'll just put it on youtube put it
07:48like on wednesday or thursday we'll put it on youtube and oh my god everybody was going nuts because
07:52they're like no we you don't do that you don't you don't put the ad on before the game like you know
07:57did they think you were cannibalizing your own uh investment yeah they thought that it would be
08:01less interesting they thought it would be less powerful right they thought it would be a letdown
08:06because they'd already seen it before right it wouldn't be as special and you reject and i argue
08:10just the opposite i said no no this is things going to catch fire everyone's going to be talking about
08:15it by friday so all the networks are going to you know the roundup of the super bowl ads to watch
08:20they're all going to be like just going off about this new ad from volkswagen and ultimately
08:25before the game ever starts we're going to win right we're going to win the ad war and and i tell
08:32you everybody fought me on that like it was just like but i was just i was sure that it would catch
08:38fire so ultimately that's what happened um it was funny because my my my niece called me like as soon
08:45as we we put it out there like on a on a wednesday and the next morning i had over 150 000 views or
08:51something like that which at that time at that time yeah at that time 2011 was crazy and she goes oh
08:56uncle tim your ad went viral i'm like yeah so um thanksgiving was going to be so much better that
09:04year and then of course what happens that everybody took credit for that you know once once once we made
09:09the decision everyone like yeah we always knew it would catch fire i'm like yeah okay whatever
09:13so so actually that that's interesting right success has uh many parents um failure not often uh is
09:21that the case did while it may have changed super bowl advertising uh certainly pre-game advertising
09:28um did it fundamentally change the way your north american ceo and the folks uh in wolfsburg thought
09:36about marketing or was it yeah yeah i did i think that they realized that that great creative story
09:45well told and executed well um that while the messaging was very important that the power of
09:53that creative could actually move people right that that you could you could create a sensation with
09:59just a really well developed and executed piece of work and the and and i've always believed in the
10:07power of great creative and what it can do and um and i think that you know listen you gotta you have
10:14to get the the respect you have to prove it right before people will trust you yeah and and ultimately i
10:21think that's what happened i mean we we did a lot of again a lot of very unconventional things
10:25i want to i want to i want to i want to stick a pin in that because i want to get into the
10:30unconventional but first for for uh the audience if you haven't caught on today i'm sitting with
10:35tim ellis who is currently and since 2018 the cmo of the nfl uh before joining the league as cmo you
10:43were cmo at activision um and uh your career has played out with many firsts in both the client and
10:51agency side um in addition uh in the u.s and europe in addition to volkswagen work with goodby silverstein
10:59partners publicists and others um you have a reputation and i believe from my experience with
11:08you which is not limited uh that it is deserved of um of doing the unconventional of challenging the
11:16norms um i tend to think that in much of life we have to earn the permission from those we work
11:28with those who love us and whom we love to fuck up to make mistakes right because forgiveness is what
11:34allows everything to keep moving forward um amongst other things i suppose um i've been in therapy a long
11:42time um you've always kind of assumed the permission right you've assumed the permission and then gone to
11:50earn it inside an organization like the one where you are today where you have a board um i'll put that
11:58word in quotes uh for the moment of not just the commissioner but 32 of the most successful
12:05wealthiest powerful people in the world as that board how do you balance um your instincts and drive
12:16for the unconventional with perhaps their comfort with a more traditional approach how do you go
12:25do what you want to do without letting what perhaps they don't know en masse about what you do and why it
12:32matters get in the way you know i'm incredibly honest and transparent about what i think uh of how
12:41something's going to work or not work right i'm i i just tell the truth right and i don't and i don't hold
12:47back so if some of that truth is not altogether positive it's important right so they they understand
12:55i think that you kind of like earn the trust and credibility just by being i say brutally honest but
13:01just really by telling them what you know and how you think it's all going to play out so when i first
13:06got to the nfl um i was very open about like hey here's where we are everything looks really good
13:13right you've got lots of people consistently watching programs and so forth but if you go deeper
13:20if you're watching the games if you go deeper you see that there's been a steady trend downward of the
13:26youth audience and you're losing females you're nowhere near where you need to be with latinos
13:30right and i said and by the way you know if you look at us from a cultural perspective right compared
13:37to all the other major sports leagues we're at the we're at the bottom like at the very very bottom
13:42so but that it's interesting right and you know every marketer today is talking about cultural
13:48resonance and relevance yeah moving at the speed of culture yada yada yada yeah i don't even know
13:52what that means anymore but you were at the bottom of culture as you just described it and i want you
14:00to unpack what that means and yet you were still selling more tickets uh driving higher ratings and
14:09more licensing revenue than i think any other league right so the function i'm sorry that the monetization
14:17of brand business and product was going gangbusters why'd they care they they cared because i
14:26proved out to them that if they didn't make some changes right away that their brand was going to
14:32continue to sink and age out essentially because all the people who were propping up the numbers
14:38were basically 40 plus white guys those are my okay me that's me that's you you and me right
14:46guys like you and me who were like proving that and like i said the numbers look good right if you
14:51just look at how many people were tuning into the game although at that time there was there was
14:56beginning to you could see that that the numbers were starting to to go downwards a little bit right
15:01yeah but that i mean but what's interesting still is of course the numbers are going down as media
15:05fragments as viewing habits change that's part of it yeah but you're still like in a world where mass
15:12media no longer exists the nfl day at weekend and week out putting aside even the super bowl
15:17is kind of the last vestige of mass media well you got to be you got to be careful to not get
15:24too caught up in your your numbers or your success currently sure because and there's there were and i
15:30and i explained i think very i think i explained to them in great detail why it mattered i mean right
15:36to future proof the league right because obviously people age out right so if you don't and we knew
15:42i could and i just showed them the data if you didn't get a young person to be a fan by the time
15:46they were 18 the likelihood of getting them to be a fan was almost impossible it just didn't happen
15:51like there wasn't an acquisition strategy for a 32 year old right and so i showed them that and i said
15:57and so you're just just to put for the top of the funnel just to get more people into the to watching
16:03the games and to be fans if you don't do that now your numbers are going to dwindle every single
16:08year right yeah because what in in your business at least the business you're in today it's not that
16:13they age out it's that they die right because you know you stick you're a fan for life meaning dead
16:19yeah dead um so they become uh so tam kind of shrinks in that moment right unless you've got an
16:26aggressive acquisition strategy and and population growth that was being driven by latinos
16:30right and we were we were nowhere near where we needed to be just to keep up with population
16:36growth we were no nowhere near where we needed to be um and then when i showed them like even you know
16:41girls and women there was a lot of women like casual casual fans who would maybe watch a game or two or
16:48three right per season but they weren't they weren't really into the sport so i said like okay we may
16:54have 45 46 casual women as casual fans but they need to be more avid we have a very very low base
17:01of avid fans that's not good yeah right and so i started ringing the bell of urgency immediately as
17:07soon as i went in there i said here's what's going to happen i just showed it to them i said here's what's
17:11going to happen to us if we don't do something right away and by the way it needs to be relevant for
17:17young people to care right so when we talk about cultural resonance that really matters and at that
17:22time you know the mba was doing quite well you know from a cultural perspective youth culture
17:26and and i said that we needed to do a lot of things not only to bring these young people into
17:32the the brand so it would strengthen the brand over time and future-proof the brand but it would also
17:38drive energy into the brand it would make it feel more relevant to young people and exciting to young
17:44people which by the way also impacts older older people right uh so i so we begin to do lots of
17:51things as sort of you know to to to connect with younger audiences to bring in youth culture in a
17:58much bigger way we focused on music gaming and fashion those are like the three things we just
18:02religiously focused on um for several years we did a campaign that was all and i shouldn't say a
18:09campaign we did a marketing strategy that i just called the helmets off strategy and essentially all
18:14that really meant was like everyone no one knows who our players are first right right they're wearing
18:19helmets right and even even when they score a touchdown they still have to keep their helmets
18:23on because of the rules of the game so i said just so people recognize our players we've got to
18:28do all of our marketing now with their helmets off but more importantly we got to know who these guys are
18:33for people to care and get involved we have to show them as human beings not just as elite athletes
18:39right that's the narrative yeah exactly so they connect with them on a human level
18:44no it's funny i'm i i was i was talking to linda buff in an earlier episode um and she said something
18:51that your helmets off strategy reminds me of which is when she was talking about her her time as cmo
18:57at ge she talked about the need to make the invisible in her case engines visible right and i think that's
19:03a little bit or maybe a lot of what you were doing and kind of you know going behind the curtain so that
19:09you you can connect to and understand and relate to in your case players that's right and show them
19:17as as human beings and talk about the things that your fans want to hear about or want they also are
19:22interested in i mean i said music fashion gaming those happen to be the three things that young
19:27people most care about right um and then you know dare to show them dare to be vulnerable and show
19:34them in a more compassionate light as well i mean did the players get it i mean since the players were
19:40were closer to the demographic that you were trying to bring in right they're all in their 20s more or
19:46less did they understand it did they connect to it in a way that helped bring um the quote-unquote
19:52board along immediately and they by the way they want to grow their own brands right right most most of
19:58these guys don't last more than two or three years in the league right so growing your own brand was
20:03also important to these players and actually caring enough to listen to them and develop a relationship
20:09that wasn't just transactional right and and so when you took the time to actually get to know them
20:16and and and help them express themselves in a way that would make them successful not just on the field
20:22but off the field you you just you would just in some degrees we like repaired relationships but in
20:29you know mostly what we were doing is developing strong relationships and like i can give you an
20:34example of something like um mental health right a lot of these players care deeply about mental health
20:40and you know you can imagine the stress of like being an elite athlete like that i mean i i can only
20:47imagine it i can't relate to it there you go well but we all have stress but like these guys the
20:52stress is incredible right um and so you know and they obviously they also have as we all do they
20:59also have friends and relatives and so forth who who suffer from anxiety and depression and so you
21:05know they wanted to to to be in a campaign that i thought was very important i started listening to
21:12the fans out there and they and one of the things i saw which caught my eye was like they wanted to hear
21:18the nfl talk about the importance of mental health and mental wellness well you and i are both on the
21:22board of the ad council and and what i i i want to just open the aperture on on your story because
21:30what you did here and for this campaign went beyond the league went beyond the nfl and you led the effort
21:40to recruit what i think became um the participation of 11 leagues and and i'm fascinated about when
21:49at least theoretical competition becomes collaboration and what that was like yeah well i mean you know
21:59lisa the ceo there i i talked lisa sherman lisa sherman yeah i talked to her about how our fans had
22:06responded to the mental health campaign and how powerful it was the ad council to have these
22:11yeah and to have these athletes speak in such an open vulnerable way um just how meaningful it was
22:19right and it was also meaningful to other players that they dared get out there and talk in such a
22:24vulnerable way and so i was just like what's the magic if we can get all the leagues together
22:28right and like because i'm sure if it if nfl athletes would feel like they wanted to contribute to
22:34this and help then i'm sure other athletes would as well and so um you know this is an area where
22:41uh there really isn't any competition right like this is this is a a an area that is um we can all
22:48relate to and transcends you know we talk about you know i i have i have a dual strategy at the nfl one is
22:54like um focus on the joy of the game and the other is to transcend the game right and this is definitely a
23:00transcend the game area of focus and so you know i just lisa and the the team there over at council
23:08they helped me kind of bring um the the people together and we we talked about the importance of
23:14it we talked about whether we could you know get some of our best athletes and do this and i just
23:20shared you know both my knowledge and experience and the and the data behind what i had done but also
23:27shared my passion for it right and why i thought it mattered and and why it was so important to
23:32professional athletes and ultimately we all came together and i thought and now we're on our second
23:38actually we're on our second round of it now we just had a meeting this week in fact to talk about
23:42the next step in the and are all 11 leagues back and if we might even have more we'll see if it's all
23:4911 or if it's a different different mix yeah but i think everyone felt really good about the what we
23:55did before and very proud of it so what we're just talking about is kind of the the collective good
24:01the social good right um which obviously is under a a renewed sense of pressure with the current
24:08administration um the league has been um pretty resolute and standing continuing to stand behind
24:17um its efforts to champion um inclusion diversity equity etc that too takes um uh courage and at
24:30least in the moment is pushing against uh what is being pushed as the new status quo how um how do you
24:38find the courage to do that as as a as a business and what role does marketing play in it well listen i think
24:46you did put your finger on it uh in terms of the business aspect of it because not only is what
24:52we're doing and have been doing a part of the values that we have at the nfl but it's also helping us
24:59bring in more people right it's it's attracting more people and which obviously for the nfl um we're only
25:07as strong as the people who want to engage in our content right like that's how we that's how we earn
25:12money by selling our our content and licensing our our brand and our content to um an increasingly
25:19number of partners and so i always share with these folks and what you know listen if you just
25:25look at the numbers um a lot of our more uh traditional fans don't like it right they don't
25:32like when we talk about some of these subjects they just want us to stick to football um but you know
25:39they they still love the nfl shut up and dribble well we yeah that's right that's that's how they
25:43feel a lot of them do but but i i think that they also appreciate that we are always very um
25:51for i i think i i would say authentic in the way we come across um we focus on things which we can all
25:59agree on like from a you know uniting people and like for example the the big spot we ran in the
26:05super bowl this year was about mentoring and helping young people um achieve success right
26:11and i think it's hard to argue against that particularly if you do it in a very powerful way
26:16but i you know at the nfl i just show how it's bringing in more you know younger people more
26:24casual audiences bringing in more women right more people of color is bringing them so we are right now
26:30at the highest number of fans we've ever had in the history of the nfl okay perceptions which
26:35again were really low when i came in at 2018 now they're the highest in the ever in the league
26:41what are you what are you measuring inside that what are you looking for we're we're measuring um how
26:46people uh value the brand we're measuring how much obviously that they um they want to be fans
26:53how interested they are in getting more involved and engaged with the brand how interested they are in
26:58watching more sorry to sorry to interrupt when when you talk about getting more engaged with the
27:02brand do you mean the brand or do you mean the product or both not that they're yeah i mean there
27:09there's an inextricable link and i just made it a binary choice but what what's it mean to want to
27:15get more engaged with the brand i mean essentially uh the nfl so no i let me let me say this i i see
27:21myself as sort of like leading um the ambassador of football right not just the nfl but of football
27:27because ultimately if someone is you know interested in in participating and engaging
27:32and watching football they will most of them at least will will engage and watch the nfl at some
27:38point in their lives but but when i when i when i talk about the brand i'm talking about the nfl and
27:44the 32 teams right okay that's what i'm talking about okay right and you're right our product is is
27:48football what you as a league i'm sure i don't mean wrestle necessarily to be implicitly negative but
27:59i'm sure i'm sure there was at least a conversation where there was some consideration of alienating
28:08people and i think across issues across campaigns opportunities etc there are a lot of ceos who
28:17wrestle with doing new things good things the right thing for feel fear of alienating so because
28:26of fear of alienating which is real right um and the consequences can be significant if that uh the
28:33commercial consequences if that alienation uh uh scales but how do you how do you overcome what's your
28:42advice to the audience the ceos and cmos alike on how to kind of consider and evaluate risk of alienation
28:50versus benefit of acquisition and retention again i think you have to ground it in what you're trying
28:58to achieve does it um is it aligned with the values that you espouse as a company and ultimately is
29:07it helping you be better i think you know diversity and inclusion is helping the nfl be better and
29:14roger goodell has said that very clearly right it helps us bring in the right people it strengthens
29:20our league it strengthens the ranks of our coaches and of our players and of the people around the nfl
29:26who are sort of driving the league forward and um you know i think when you when you when you're
29:33consistent with what you believe and you continue to do it and not react constantly i think that's
29:38what i think is important because you know i always say brands are like people right when they act one
29:43way one day one way the other you don't trust you the nfl is a private enterprise right even if some of
29:49the teams are publicly traded you have the benefit of not being um subject to the whims of the capital
29:58markets day in and day out that would seem to me to be an advantage that facilitates the thinking
30:07long term the way you have just been articulating it right what what you're talking about is long-term
30:14growth long-term uh um uh viability and and i wonder if having worked for publicly traded companies
30:24before quite a few um if you do think that that's an advantage and where where you're thinking actually
30:32more importantly than whether you think that's an advantage how you balance um as a marketer as a
30:38business leader the short and the long yeah i listen you can't forget about the short term because
30:45obviously you're paid to deliver on the short term as well but i think that the the brands that are the
30:51most successful constantly have their eye on how the short term is building for the long and how the
30:56long term tomorrow's long term is next week's short term right does that make sense yeah yeah yeah it
31:02does it does make sense so um because i mean i i just told you like the the three acquisition targets
31:07we have you know young people uh girls and women and latinos they are what's driving our growth so
31:13when i talk about you know biggest fan base ever it's because i have very clear evidence to show it
31:18um it's because of those three targets they are the ones that are building our fan base they also
31:25happen to be making the brand more interesting right like i mean think about latino culture right like
31:30bad bunny and the you know so many incredible um sort of artists out there and musicians who are
31:35really just changing the world with their um with with who they are and with their art and that's
31:42making our brand more interesting too it's making it younger it's making it cooler it's making it
31:47less predictable uh and that and that's great for everybody right so as we get towards time
31:53and it's gone it's gone more quickly than uh i realized share a story if you would um before the league
32:04maybe you know early early in your career that that made you the marketer you are today
32:10and then i want to ask you what advice you'd have for the ceos boards and cfos who are listening and
32:19watching who don't have marketing experience about how to give their cmos their marketing orgs the
32:26permission to go fuck up as we discussed before so that they can succeed brilliantly
32:31because of that permission you know i think listen when i i always tell people that when i was at
32:39goodby silverstein and partners at that time it was actually goodby berlin and silverstein andy
32:43berlin yeah was was still there uh you know the way that we approached our work of like really
32:50taking the time to understand the audience like to get deep insights that we could then use to spark
32:57creativity right and everybody who worked for that agency was a part of it like you know you weren't
33:03there just to make a client happy i was an account you know person you weren't there just to make
33:07them happier to sort of you know buy them a cup of coffee you were there to help get to the right
33:14place and then to sort of obviously demonstrate and bring in the client so they understood how that
33:21was all going to work and that also that they had a sense of um accountability and pride in the final
33:27work i mean that they were fantastic and they still are they're fantastic at crafting things right so
33:34not only did they take the time to really understand the audience and build an idea around true
33:42insight and something which really was powerful to people and that would like immediately resonate
33:47with them um but they took the time to get the right artists and to craft the work to where
33:53everything we did felt like a big blockbuster film or something right the actors the directors the
33:59execution the editing the color everything but i think i think for for the ceo and who doesn't
34:08understand marketing because they don't come from it i think what that might do is reinforce the
34:14stereotype that marketing is about the production rather than the outcome right that it's the big
34:22hollywood you know the marketers the creative uh internally and that it like it doesn't get to
34:31the outcome to the commercial benefit and and you know when i when we had a conversation with david
34:39droger for this show it was one of the things he said right which is you know i asked him what is
34:43what does he think ceos think marketing is he's like you know jazz hands and pretty pictures yeah i believe
34:50that's what he said and i wonder as a craftsman yourself right and you are very involved in the
34:59craft and the output of the creative product how you then even before it's out in the world how you
35:09think how you evaluate good and say yeah this has like your darth vader ad in 2011 um which i will put
35:17in the show notes um why you think a piece of work is good to say nothing of um a collective body of
35:28work um is going to drive commercial outcome well i'm gonna i'm gonna answer that question but i want
35:34to step back for a moment here because what you what you said there in terms of like playing into the
35:38stereotypes of like you know willy-nilly marketing people that all they care about is a nice ad
35:44i will say this it is incredibly important as a cmo to really have a very balanced program um which
35:52in every way um ultimately in a very efficient effective way hits your audience with the right
35:58messages at the right time in the right place okay i have built an absolute marketing machine at the
36:04nfl and everything we're doing around data-driven marketing one-to-one marketing everything we're doing
36:09around our social and influencer and creator program which just gets like exponentially um insane
36:17views and coverage because of how we work and the partnerships that we have created are as important
36:23as any ad that we may put on a game or a super bowl or or or whatever so i want to say that because
36:29that's critical and so so how you go to market and how you build that machine is really important i am
36:36sick and tired about hearing a cmo has to be a brand cmo or they have to be a data cmo that's just
36:42bullshit that's nonsense it's just bullshit you know you have to be able to do both now so many false
36:47narratives do i have as much experience as some of the guys that work for netflix and google on data
36:52driven marketing of course not i mean i happen to work at activision where it's pretty damn important
36:56right like one-to-one marketing was very important in terms of driving and monetizing um your game
37:03year round but i mean sure i came 12 years in as an agency person and i don't have as much experience
37:10as somebody from google or amazon or something on the other hand i surround myself with experts who
37:15really know this stuff and and um can bring it to life in the in the most amazing ways and i i let them
37:22go i appoint them in the right direction i learn from them and so forth but i let them go i let them do
37:27their jobs and then when it comes to every other aspect of of our program i ensure that it's balanced
37:33we we're we are slaves to the right kpis to ensure that things are having the right impact and i think
37:40when i have discussions with our uh our cfo and with um our ceo who of course is the commissioner
37:46i very carefully lay out this is how it works this is directly going to do this this is indirectly
37:53going to do that and this is how we are are moving people towards the journey of um the the sale or to
38:01the desired effect where in our product people will engage right so i'm very careful to sort of lay
38:07those things out i do the same thing with our committees of owners and with our total 32 owner
38:12group i very carefully lay out this is how it's all going to work this is why we're doing what we're
38:17doing this is why it's so important to get certain things right and when you now i'm going to come
38:22back to the crafting part and to the creative part like if you want to win people over if you want to
38:28you know um create something which will truly make them think differently about the league and make them
38:34want to spend more time with you not less but more time with you you have to connect with them on a human
38:40level and on an emotional level and these are the kinds of things that we have done and need to
38:45continue to do which will fuel our success if that makes sense right so i can actually show them
38:51these are the things the executions and these are the campaigns and these are the things
38:55and this is and this is how we're interpreting the results of that campaign which are driving helping
39:01driving our success and if you don't get down to that level of like understanding the kpis and then
39:08and then really explaining how all those things come together to create success right then people are
39:15left to sort of like wonder like well why do we need to do these ads or why do we need to
39:20you know do all this stuff it's costing too much money right if we need to save more money or we
39:25need to put more to the bottom line let's just shave off more of the marketing budget always the first
39:30to go it is it's always the first to go and it's and that's but it's the first to go it's interesting
39:35because of course it's not always it's usually and and um that's that's typically driven by those
39:42who see it as an expense and don't understand it as an investment and i can't remember who it was so i will
39:49i will be vague and not guess but i remember during the beginning and at the beginning of the
39:54pandemic when consumer spending started to understandably contract um there was a cpg
40:00company as i recall who rather than cutting marketing doubled into marketing kind of because
40:05they understood it to be the investment they understood what people were looking for hoping
40:09for and needing in that moment um and so as a last question um and thank you for being with us
40:16appreciate it really i always enjoy speaking with you so this has been great what's your advice to
40:22the ceo cfo board who actually doesn't have that marketing experience on how how to how to be a better
40:28ally to a marketing org and a cmo take the time to really sit down and ask questions and listen and
40:37make your cmo prove out like and i wouldn't maybe not say it's prove out but it's also
40:45explaining how it all works the the listen the problem is is that so much of traditionally at least
40:51so much of the marketing which most people see right it it seems relatively simple and they react
40:58right that's part of the craft we're all we're all consumers of marketing advertising marketing so
41:03it seems relatively simple but i'm you know we need to be better first of all i think we need
41:09to be better at marketing our own marketing right yeah that's for sure um because we just don't take
41:15the time to actually um explain and to sort of allow people to understand what what it is that we're
41:22doing yeah that's been a real through line yeah and so but i think that you know taking the time to
41:28actually sit down and go through it and not just like going through some sexy thing you did last
41:34week that you want to show get five minutes and show the ceo the work actually no take take carve out
41:40a a significant amount of time to go into depth on all the things that you were doing i mean if you were
41:47you know if if you came in as an engineer on a new product or if you came in as a cfo on the on you
41:55know a five-year plan you wouldn't do it in 10 minutes right you would take time you would take
42:00the appropriate level of time to really get into it and to explain it and to sort of like you know
42:06be open and be vulnerable like show this is what's working this wasn't working as well so we made it
42:11some decisions to change this and go here look how this is working here but really explain what
42:17you're doing and why and be willing to show that like not everything worked exactly according to plan
42:22as opposed to the rest of life where it all goes exactly yeah exactly yeah yeah it's really true
42:28like you know you don't have to so many times i see marketing people they go up and they sell
42:32right there is a difference between taking people through your work and showing them things
42:37than selling like they're afraid to say that anything is not great they're afraid to say well this
42:43actually grew because of this not just because my ad was great or my my one-to-one program was amazing
42:48this also helped right this we thought was going to happen this way but it actually didn't happen
42:53quite that way so we learned and we made some adjustments there's nothing wrong with that i mean
42:57to the contrary to the contrary it's essential trust yeah it earns you trust and say okay i i
43:03believe i trust this person they're they're they're moving constantly moving toward excellence
43:08and by the way the overall numbers look pretty good right and so like let's you know so then you
43:15what you want of course is you want your ceo or your cfo okay what can i do to sort of help
43:20right make this make this go even stronger right and then that gives you the opportunity to to
43:26to sort of really um share these things share these things with your with your executive team
43:32and so i'm like i you know i'm very fortunate right now i think i've earned that right but i'm on the
43:37highest boards like so i'm i am a direct reporter of commissioner goodell and i'm on that board that we
43:43don't talk just about marketing i contribute i talk about the business i mean i i'm open about
43:48everything um and in the and i invite my colleagues to be open about what i do right i want to hear what
43:54they think yeah you're not going to get better if you don't that's right yeah um so i think that
44:00that's important i think that when you're when you're sitting on uh the sort of the highest level
44:05board of the company and you're talking about things which aren't necessarily about marketing
44:10then you know you're a part of the business you know that you're having impact and influence
44:15on how the business is run and they see you differently right they just they just see you
44:21and the propensity to be a monday morning marketer yeah you like what i did there by the way i'm on
44:26some credit for that monday morning quarterback monday morning marketer it's not bad it's um i've done
44:31worse for sure thanks man really appreciate you being here and love love your point about the
44:37difference between explaining and selling yeah the difference between involving and pitching
44:44yeah um because that's where understanding comes from um with that we want to thank our listeners and
44:51our viewers appreciate you being with us as always uh hit the subscribe button give it all the stars
44:57you possibly can we'll see you next time thanks
45:00you