Good urban design requires more than aesthetics—it involves policy enforcement, accessibility regulations, and addressing community needs—who gets to use public spaces, and who controls them? On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Associate Professor Dr Camelia May Li Kusumo, Head of School of Architecture, Building & Design at Taylor's University, and co-author of ‘Kaki Lima Stories: Life in the Five-Foot Ways of Downtown Kuala Lumpur’.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the
00:15show where we find the extraordinary in every woman. And I'm delighted to introduce my guest
00:21today, Associate Professor Dr. Camelia May Kusomo, who is the head of the School of Architecture
00:28Building and Design at Taylors University. So welcome to the show. You're also the author
00:35of the book Kaki Lima Stories, Life in the Five Footways of Downtown KL. Is that right?
00:41Yes. I wanted to talk a little bit about the book but before that maybe we can begin by
00:45talking about your journey. What sparked your passion for urban design? Have you always been
00:52interested in architecture and urban design? Yes. Of course, I did my degree in architecture.
01:01Of course, designing a space or a place is always interesting for me and it's challenging,
01:08it's fascinating as well for me. But then slowly when I did my postgraduate studies, slowly I'm
01:18moving towards more to the urban scale, to the urban design and urban planning. The reasons being is
01:24because when I see that how actually that the space shape people's behavior. So and space,
01:34designing space is important and is impactful for the people who live in it. And when you design a bigger
01:41scale like the cities or urban space, that means your impact is even bigger. And what interests me a lot
01:47when I'm studying the urban or the cities, I need also to know a lot more about the economic
01:57aspects, the environmental aspect, the social aspect of the life of the people. And I find that
02:03in fact it's fascinating that it gives me actually a better overview of what is happening actually in
02:10our life beyond myself. No, I completely agree with you. I think that's so true that this
02:17field is really an intersection of kind of sociology and built environment and you're right. How we
02:23design our spaces shapes how our behaviors are as a community and also our behaviors as a community
02:30shapes the spaces that we live in. Correct. That book that you wrote about Kaki Lima Stories. Talk to me a
02:37little bit about why you focused on these five-foot ways. Maybe you can explain. I don't think it's common
02:43knowledge that downtown KL is so full of five-foot ways. But yeah, talk to me about why these spaces matter.
02:51This is exactly my motivation, why I wrote or initiated the writing of this book. Because I started
03:02with the research about the urban space in the city center of Malaysian city center, Malaysian city
03:10centers. And we did that study at the beginning in KLIM. So we have this phenomenon which is called
03:18hollowing cities. That the old city becoming empty and emptier and people are moving outside. Most of
03:25the people, almost no one actually live in the city center anymore. We come into work but then we leave at
03:30the end of the day. Correct. So it's only just offices maybe a place of work but even that I mean
03:36with all the new development that people the offices are so slowly moving actually to the new building
03:42like TRX, PNB 118. So those are the examples that the if you see some banks are starting moving one by
03:50one they become emptier and emptier. So there is this thought how actually we can bring the kind of like the
03:57glory of this old city center back to the to the to the to the to the to the urban historical core of
04:04Malaysian cities. And we of course the concept is oh we have to make it lively again. But making it lively
04:12looking what what are the public spaces inside. Then I slowly started to realize hey by the way all the
04:19theories all the knowledge that we learn all the times is inspired by western theory and western context.
04:26So a lot of books that we learn at the school at the university is published by the western authors
04:34and talking about the beautiful piasa in Italy, beautiful square in London. So it's all about those
04:41square and and a piasa in western context. But if you remember can you imagine that for Malaysian in the
04:48tropical context we will stay in the square in the middle of the hot day. But there is if it's hot nobody
04:57there if it's raining so nobody there. But when actually I started to observe the old city center
05:03the people the places that still lively is all the five foot way corridors the walkway in front of the shop
05:11houses. It's very lively it's very what's that it's very colorful I find it and it's quite it has a beauty
05:19by itself but nobody actually written a book about it that from the point of view of the of the urban
05:26designer even actually when we are teaching this actually to our students we don't have a reference
05:32book for it. Do we take it for granted this type of architecture because I never noticed having walked
05:39down so many five foot ways I had never noticed until it was pointed out to me look at the arches
05:44look at the ventilation look at how it provides shelter and shade from rain and sun. Do you think
05:50it's unappreciated because we don't notice it? Yes yes yes I think I think a lot of us actually maybe
05:57something looks like so mundane it's so simple we walk through it actually a daily but that and this is in
06:07fact my the my main motivation is to ensure that this story is not forgotten and especially for the
06:13young people who now grow up maybe in the suburbs you know in the residential area when this doesn't
06:19exist anymore they might I think in 2017 2018 even I saw a report which is written for the dbkl
06:27that say that we should get rid of all the five foot way the reasons being is because the size
06:32of the five foot way and there are so many steps and it's not well maintained as I say it's not it's
06:38not the it doesn't provide a good accessibility for everyone yes I understand but we shouldn't
06:44demolish it we should maintain it and find a way actually to ensure the accessibility is still there
06:49well that's it that's a good point so when we think about how public spaces of kaki lima right
06:56when we say kaki lima so five foot that the the public spaces of these what's what was so vibrant and
07:02people use them all the time it's changed over the years um talk to me about how it's changed and
07:09how it's become more of a challenge to preserve what once was uh but one of the biggest I mean of course
07:17there is changes different shape different size but one of the biggest challenge I find it is that the
07:24Malaysian especially the younger generation they grew they are growing up in a shopping mall so we
07:30are turning our back to the to our own public spaces so once actually you turn your back uh towards the
07:38public spaces then you don't feel I need another pedestrian walkway or I need actually the five foot way
07:44because if you notice in our cities they are somehow pedestrian walkway but it does it is not protected as
07:51good as the five foot way it's not covered even if it is covered it's actually quite limited quite
07:58limited sometimes it's like maybe what the simple cheap materials but it's not well designed that
08:03accommodate actually a lot of the public uh activities on the street right well when we think about the
08:10way these spaces are being used the idea was for lots of pedestrians to use them to walk from one point
08:18another and in this meantime gonna stop in between these shops but this it's become quite restrictive
08:23now you talked a little bit about the accessibility that's one way that is not as inclusive as
08:29what was previously what we wanted to be but it's also become restricted because businesses take
08:35over it they put all their material their promotions their inventory even spilling out onto
08:41onto the five foot ways right yes yes yes I think there should be a balance on this so we have to ensure
08:46because still five foot way is a public space that is a part of the right of way of the public so we
08:53should ensure that the the accessibility should be there all the time we have to get rid of all the
08:59blockage you know so sometimes the the the the the shop owners just take privatize yeah it's not
09:06their space it's not their space it's a public space so we I mean as I think the municipalities uh whatever
09:13is this in fact have to ensure this kind of uh accessibility of the kaki lima all the time do you know
09:20what um what policies are are there any urban policies that are addressing how to I don't know preserve or
09:29improve or enforce the accessibility or the inclusivity of these public spaces it is maybe not not
09:36specific uh uh policy uh however those uh kaki lima are public space so that means those three that in
09:45fact belong to the local municipalities it doesn't belong to the private uh shop owners so so in in a
09:52way uh uh the municipality always can enforce that work that that that that the accessibility should be there
10:00all the time so it is not it is not possible for or actually we have we have to uh uh prevent the
10:06the the individual owner putting a fence or blocking the way for people actually to walk through well that
10:11that's the um malaysia perennial issue in malaysia right we have great policies urban planning policies
10:19maybe even but enforcement is an issue it's quite weak uh that you see is a gap in terms of the policy
10:26enforcement we could be better uh in terms of making sure that these public spaces are better
10:33utilized for the public yeah i think in certain places honestly like uh kl and penang there are
10:39quite some enforcement if you see that most of the five footway are accessible for for penang and and
10:47kuala lumpur in fact i think a few years ago there was some uh some ngos actually uh did
10:54uh quite a lot of works to ensure actually to demolish all the wall and all the barriers along
11:01the five footway in george town in penang so but this is somehow the uh enforcement is limited to only
11:09to certain and maybe the big municipality that has more resources actually to do the enforcements okay
11:15well when we think about urban planning urban design uh the kind of broader scope in the field
11:22there are many urban spaces that are still designed with the male with male mobility in mind let's just
11:31say that you know uh and also kind of wide you have wide roads for cars you have kind of poorly lit
11:37walkways limited public seating when we think about a discussion a broader discussion architecture
11:44why do you think it should be more gender inclusive in terms of urban planning
11:51where do you see the blind spots when it comes to malaysia's urban design yeah i think the the the
11:58it is important to involve the females in in in planning and designing the urban space
12:06uh i mean when when is the the planners or the urban designer are only male sometimes i don't mean that
12:15they are bad they are good people good men as well but i think sometimes they forgot there is a different
12:20needs and a perception by the female designers or planners i mean for examples that for a female for
12:31a woman it's very very important to have a safe and comfortable space for them actually to be in the public
12:38space because uh female need more safety when when the place the urban space is not safe they try to
12:45avoid it they will not they they wouldn't want even to come out for example like a bus stop that in the
12:51deserted space i mean female as a female you will think twice to stand there alone but or actually if you
12:59have a dark alley they will just like uh maybe i will just go take a taxi or take a grab rather than
13:04actually i walk through the the shortcut if the alley is dark so this kind of uh simple consideration
13:11even a playground because the playground uh sometimes okay so we put a playground but this
13:16playground is difficult actually to to be accessible with the stroller with the baby stroller and we also
13:23have to remember that often women is the one doing is doing the one who is doing the groceries so and
13:29the child care care and everything so if the pathway is not good and uh accessibility is hard they won't
13:35do that so this is something small small thing that this need to be considered when uh uh when we do a
13:43design uh or inclusive design for everyone have you have you seen that change over the years and the reason why
13:49i ask is because uh more often than not gender inclusivity is the last one of the lowest priorities
13:57on the list right it's always like cost or aesthetics or or other other considerations uh you know client
14:05demands or what the brief is other considerations come into play are you seeing that change or how do you
14:11see um the evolution of that should we be demanding more about our public spaces i think i think
14:19we should uh maybe uh i think we as a woman also should should involve more on the discussion of the
14:26public spaces because i think there is a now much more awareness about the inclusiveness not only for
14:32women but also with people with different abilities so that is uh so i think if we uh we have to uh
14:40voice our thought our opinion our perception on public space a bit more right i think so yeah yeah for sure um
14:47and is it getting more attention uh i'm just wondering within the the field of let's say art with
14:54architects can architects and architecture be a tool or an instrument for social change beyond
15:04the kind of small scale projects that say architects work on um you you've worked on several uh projects
15:10you've worked on projects like the nest yeah um which uses architecture for social impact
15:16can can architects push for more socially conscious uh design yes because as i mentioned in the beginning
15:24of our conversation that the design of space will have an influence on our behavior and in fact
15:32because we are building big structures architectures urban city is a big things that in fact will uh will
15:41influence or will stick in our memories and then the memories when actually we are building things
15:46actually in the city scale it will become not only individual memory but the collective memory the people's
15:51memories so uh i think uh that's why uh we as a women have actually need to to to push more uh to be
16:02involved more actually in the in the cities the design and and planning uh i mean there is a uh because
16:10people remember the city by physical structures so if we are not involved we will not be remembered just
16:16think about the street names can you if you know that if there is a notable persons their names will become a
16:25street names in malaysia it's quite common there are many many streets with the names can can you count
16:31how many of those street names are women i hadn't considered that before it's very little very little
16:42i don't know i mean how many of them but i think i cannot think of any but mostly are men but i believe
16:47that they they are women's heroes as well but why actually only men names exist on the street names of
16:55malaysian cities so this is something because this actually will become a collective memory for our
17:02future generations what do you remember interesting point can you talk to me about the collective memory
17:07how does it shape our collective memory what is it that we remember as a community how does it shape it so
17:13uh it is a memory that we share with with the uh with the communities so for example like the merdeka
17:23event the merdeka event in itself the tataran merdeka we associate it actually with that the same with
17:31the stadium the stadium negara and the stadium merdeka so a lot of people when actually you mention about
17:38the stadium some people uh will say oh i remember i saw muhammad ali boxing game or i saw this concert
17:44concert there yes that's right many of us have collective memories and there's many people not
17:49only your personal memory but there are many people memories and this is what we call collective memories
17:54so the stadium itself i think i'm so happy actually that uh the government decided actually to to to
18:00preserve actually these two stadiums because it's quite symbolic in part of our collective memories as well
18:06so when we think about preservation of the so there's been a lot of discussion about preserving uh
18:13our our you know our heritage buildings but with that comes the fear of gentrification we have the urban
18:21renewal act that's coming out that that everyone's talking about how do you see the balance that's being
18:27taken of preserving this kind of collective memory this heritage that we have but at the same time not
18:34missing out on the kind of prime downtown land and the economic development that's the potential of
18:40economic development uh how do but also avoiding gentrification which you know sometimes it's not a
18:47good thing yeah i think i think uh uh we might it might sound please please say but we need actually
18:55to go back to the principle of sustainable development so it's not only just about the development of
18:59economic we actually have to kind of consider the the environmental development or impact and our as
19:06well as the social impact so we have to ensure when we uh do the development of certain areas that
19:16it shouldn't actually bring a negative impact to the environment as well as to the social balance and
19:23this is something that we have to consider all the time i think uh uh uh very often that the redevelopment
19:30focus a lot on the economic part of it and people often forget about the social and economical impact
19:36of it so if we it should be a uh everything has has to work in balance so if we want to economic to the
19:43economy to grow we have to ensure that the social uh uh uh aspect also growing and the environmental
19:50aspect aspect as well is being protected at the same time is it a harder argument to make over the
19:56very easy dollars and cents yes yes yes it's much much harder because it will cost more um
20:01it will reduce your profit yes because you have to put some of uh money also to develop like more green
20:08cities or more uh socially accessible city that is cost more money because you need to invest
20:15it's not only just about the the profit you spoke in the beginning of our conversations a conversation
20:21about the hollowing of cities about the emptying out cities talk to me a little bit about that why is
20:26that a concern and what can we do to bring life back to our cities i think they they they of course the
20:35government have need to actually to take a lead so in a way if you want actually to bring it back to the urban
20:41renewal act so one of the kind of the positive impact of this urban renewal act it will give a
20:47possibility for the government to basically to to initiate some of the project that can attract the
20:56people to come back to the old city centers if you want to see the positive side of it so and and in the
21:02in the uh in the other hand uh i think another way to do it is uh giving incentive actually for the
21:12people to come back it doesn't mean actually only just economical uh incentive but it can be for
21:18example like to ensure that the city is safe to ensure that the facilities uh the public facility is
21:25well maintained and so for the a lot of people that can be actually quite an interesting option
21:30we can learn actually from from many many places in the world i mean it can be we learn from the
21:35western examples if i want to say like the european examples no more piazzas actually how they bring
21:42back actually the the people to the city center they also faced hollowing yes yes it's the same i mean
21:47like london like amsterdam they had experienced the hollowing out but they managed to bring back uh the
21:53people how do they do it i think there's a what with they need actually certain key projects to be
21:59developed inside the cities to draw people to draw people some key projects i mean uh that attract the
22:05people and you have to ensure that the the the the that we don't keep giving the license of new
22:14building outside the city so we need actually somehow to kind of uh limit the development on the on the
22:22green area so rather than actually developing in the green field they can actually renew the cities
22:28so the the the the if we if the the municipality keep giving a permit a new building permit to to the
22:37the green area then people will go to the new building to the new area but if you say okay we don't
22:45allow the cities to grow and grow or to grow more than this size and we don't allow any more development
22:51outside the the the boundaries of the current cities or or encroach any green area anywhere
22:57then automatically the developer will come in can i ask you what you what your hope is for the future
23:06of urban i mean you've been in this field for so long you've seen how sometimes it can be quite
23:10frustrating when other people's agenda are prioritized but when we think about good urban design for
23:17malaysian cities what's your hope i think i think malaysian cities uh has focused a lot on the economic
23:24development that is a good things nothing wrong with it but i think it's time now for uh malaysian
23:29cities to focus uh on the uh on the more social and environmental side of the of the city's renewal i think
23:39i'm really uh uh uh hope that the the malaysian cities can embrace also more nature
23:46culture in their designs to make it the cities more comfortable for everyone and make it more
23:53inclusive for everyone as well so that is my hope uh for the future of malaysian cities that is my hope
23:59as well that we can all enjoy our cities um thank you so much for shedding some light into this very
24:04very important topic i appreciate your time thank you thank you so much for your time that's all we have
24:09for you on this episode of the futures female i'm melissa idris signing off for the evening thank you so
24:15much for watching good night